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andymays
04-23-2009, 08:41 AM
Yesterday a problem arose from a dispute between TVG and whoever. The bottom line from a Bettors standpoint is that if bets were made earlier in the day (before 4:00pm EST) on races 2-8 they were refunded and not paid even if they were winning wagers.

A friend of mine called in his wagers from work and below I have copied and pasted an email that I sent to about 12 persons in the media and various Racing bodies.

My opinion of the situation is stated below along with a copy of the TVG bets that my friend made for the day!

email body:

I sent this to some of you yesterday and I am sending it again because it is fundamental to what we do. Anything less than outrage at this situation is unacceptable no matter what the fine print may say. If you are involved in the Thoroughbred Industry in whatever capacity and don’t stick up for the little guy that makes a bet while he’s at work, thinks he’s won, gets home to find that instead of winning his bets were refunded.

If anyone I’m sending this to doesn’t have the time or will to address this then you should get out of the business! You are part of the fundamental problem plaguing this industry. Apathy for something that doesn’t directly affect you is the problem.

For those of you who are actively looking into this I appreciate it. These are the bets made by a close friend of mine who doesn’t have a computer and called these in to TVG from work!


My friend placed these wagers with TVG earlier in the day. The times are Eastern Standard Time. All of the bets were accepted and many of them won including 5 of 6 in the Pick 6. Pick 3’s and 4’s were also hit for over $1000. They did not pay him and they only refunded the money after they accepted the bets. This is criminal. Is there any recourse?

4/22/2009 12:52 PM 40094D297363 Keeneland 1 $3.00 P3 5/6/2,5 IVR WAGER $6.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:53 PM 040959077363 Keeneland 2 $2.00 P4 6/2,5/2/8,11 IVR WAGER $8.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:54 PM D00962157363 Keeneland 1 $15.00 DB 5/6 IVR WAGER $15.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:54 PM A8096CE57363 Keeneland 3 $2.00 P3 2,5/2/8,11 IVR WAGER $8.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:55 PM 3C0979BB7363 Keeneland 4 $3.00 P3 2/8,11/3,5 IVR WAGER $12.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:56 PM 240983C37363 Keeneland 5 $3.00 P3 8,11/3,5/2 IVR WAGER $12.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:57 PM 040996897363 Keeneland 6 $1.00 P4 3,5/2/8,9/2,7 IVR WAGER $8.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:58 PM 14099BFF7363 Keeneland 6 $3.00 P3 3,5/2/8,9 IVR WAGER $12.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 1:07 PM 780A5B117363 Hollywood Park 1 $1.00 PPA 3/4/1/2,3/1,3/6/3,4/7 IVR WAGER $8.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 1:08 PM 7C0A651D7363 Hollywood Park 1 $3.00 P4 3/4/1,3/2,3 IVR WAGER $12.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 1:08 PM 540A71BB7363 Hollywood Park 2 $3.00 P3 4/1,3/2,3 IVR WAGER $12.00 Refund: $12.00
4/22/2009 1:09 PM 1C0A83777363 Hollywood Park 3 $2.00 P6 1,3/2,3/1,3/6/3,4/7 IVR WAGER $32.00 Refund: $32.00
4/22/2009 1:11 PM 300A95DD7363 Hollywood Park 3 $3.00 P3 1,3/2,3/2,3 IVR WAGER $24.00 Refund: $24.00
4/22/2009 1:11 PM 7C0AA1657363 Hollywood Park 4 $3.00 P3 2,3/1,3/5,6 IVR WAGER $24.00 Refund: $24.00
4/22/2009 1:12 PM 000AAEBB7363 Hollywood Park 5 $2.00 P4 1,3/5,6/3,4/7 IVR WAGER $16.00 Refund: $16.00
4/22/2009 1:13 PM 780AB7557363 Hollywood Park 5 $4.00 P3 1,3/5,6/3,4 IVR WAGER $32.00 Refund: $32.00
4/22/2009 1:13 PM 0C0ABFF17363 Hollywood Park 6 $15.00 P3 5,6/3/7 IVR WAGER $30.00 Refund: $30.00
4/22/2009 1:14 PM 600AC57D7363 Hollywood Park 8 $5.00 TR 7/1,2/1,2,5,6 IVR WAGER $30.00 Refund: $30.00
4/22/2009 3:29 PM C41502077363 Keeneland 6 $2.00 P4 4/2/8,9/2,7 IVR WAGER $8.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 3:30 PM 0415117D7363 Keeneland 6 $3.00 TR 4/3,5/3,5,9 IVR WAGER $12.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 3:35 PM 041589817363 Keeneland 6 $1.00 P4 3,4,5/5/8,9/2,7,8 IVR WAGER $18.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 3:36 PM 64159CEF7363 Keeneland 7 $5.00 P3 5/8,9/2,7,8 IVR WAGER $30.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 3:40 PM 3C15BF657363 Hollywood Park 1 $2.00 P4 2,3/4/1,3/2,3 IVR WAGER $16.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 3:41 PM D015D28F7363 Hollywood Park 5 $3.00 P4 1,3/5,6/3,4/7 IVR WAGER $24.00 Refund: $24.00
4/22/2009 3:42 PM 3415DEC37363 Hollywood Park 6 $15.00 P3 5,6/3/7 IVR WAGER $30.00 Refund: $30.00

gemcity39
04-23-2009, 08:53 AM
From a legal standpoint, not emotional, the TVG disclosure has specific guidelines on what happens if wagers accepted cannot be completed due to transmission errors, (which this is not), and "other" actions which result in the non co-mingling of pools. So from a legal standpoint the issue would be did the money bet co-mingle in the Holloywood pool totals, or did TVG never actually place the bets, but refunded them after deciding not to take wagers on Hollywood Park. If the money never co-mingled then TVG is covered strictly from a legal standpoint, (criminal), as you stated.

The lack of ethics by TVG not making the decision to refuse wagers should have been made before accepting any wagers. Your friend may have civil recourse for monetary damages because he can in fact show loss of revenue due to the refunds. However he would have to find an attorney willing to represent him that would evaluate the case and see it as a winner.

andymays
04-23-2009, 09:02 AM
From a legal standpoint, not emotional, the TVG disclosure has specific guidelines on what happens if wagers accepted cannot be completed due to transmission errors, (which this is not), and "other" actions which result in the non co-mingling of pools. So from a legal standpoint the issue would be did the money bet co-mingle in the Holloywood pool totals, or did TVG never actually place the bets, but refunded them after deciding not to take wagers on Hollywood Park. If the money never co-mingled then TVG is covered strictly from a legal standpoint, (criminal), as you stated.

The lack of ethics by TVG not making the decision to refuse wagers should have been made before accepting any wagers. Your friend may have civil recourse for monetary damages because he can in fact show loss of revenue due to the refunds. However he would have to find an attorney willing to represent him that would evaluate the case and see it as a winner.


You are right in everything you say. My point is how about somebody in the Industry doing the right thing once in a while. The Horseplayer always takes the worst of all situations.

All bets that were made should be in action and should be paid. I made bets in the 1st race and was paid on the early pick 3. In my opinion that means any bets made before the 1st would have been sent in.

I sent the email to several in the Media. It's their job to get to the bottom of this and inform the public.

cj's dad
04-23-2009, 09:48 AM
It appears that your friend made these wagers via the telephone. TVG offers a "cancel" wager option via the net up to seconds before post. Because of this option (fairly recent) all bets made with TVG are able to be cancelled just seconds before post, as I have done.

However, before the 2nd race began, wagering into HP's pool was no longer an option, therefore, no wager = refund. What exactly would you have liked TVG to do ??

They do not book bets, they are merely a conduit for the wagers at a pre-set price of $.25 per wager.

Hope that helps your friend.

andymays
04-23-2009, 10:01 AM
The wagers were made by phone. They would say online in the wager information line. His say IVR whatever that stands for (maybe interactive voice recognition).

Frankly I don't believe that the early wagers were not transmitted to Hollywood Park. Maybe I'm wrong.

TVG should have told whoever that they had accepted wagers and would honor them. The people who stopped TVG if that's what happened should have allowed the bets that were in to stand!

These knee jerk reactions seems to always end the same way. The Horseplayer takes the worst of it!

lamboguy
04-23-2009, 10:10 AM
why in anyone's right mind pay .25 to make a $2 wager? seems to me they have a very flawed business plan at TVG.

i can get you the video, the replays, and all the pp's, get you every single north american track, and lots of other tracks world wide and get you a good rebate to boot.

andymays
04-23-2009, 10:12 AM
why in anyone's right mind pay .25 to make a $2 wager? seems to me they have a very flawed business plan at TVG.

i can get you the video, the replays, and all the pp's, get you every single north american track, and lots of other tracks world wide and get you a good rebate to boot.


Thanks for the information but the subject is about an injustice done to a Horseplayer.

Every Horseplayer should be outraged that this could happen!

rrbauer
04-23-2009, 10:21 AM
Frankly I don't believe that the early wagers were not transmitted to Hollywood Park. Maybe I'm wrong.



ADW wagers get transmitted to the host track via their hub. Hub-stored wagers do not get transmitted for any specific race until the track opens those races for wagering over the network. For the 1st race of the day, that is usually 1/2 hour, or so, before the race. For subsequent races, it is after the previous race has been made official and prices have been posted.

andymays
04-23-2009, 10:23 AM
ADW wagers get transmitted to the host track via their hub. Hub-stored wagers do not get transmitted for any specific race until the track opens those races for wagering over the network. For the 1st race of the day, that is usually 1/2 hour, or so, before the race. For subsequent races, it is after the previous race has been made official and prices have been posted.


Thanks for clearing that up. What do you believe is the right thing to do here?

My friend would have put in the wagers with Twin Spires if he would have known. He was at work so how could he have known?

andymays
04-23-2009, 10:35 AM
Im sure there are more knowlegable people than me on this forum so let me ask.

Who is at fault here?

Tom
04-23-2009, 10:51 AM
TVG.

Nice to see they do not put all their morons on the air, that they have a good supply held back in the offices. You never know when you will need an extra moron.

They had no business taking wager they were not certain they could honor.
People have had their knees broken for this. Maybe a few more should.

lamboguy
04-23-2009, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the information but the subject is about an injustice done to a Horseplayer.

Every Horseplayer should be outraged that this could happen!

yes that is an injustice to a horse player. if they accept the bet, they have no right to cancel it. how does one know ahead of time that they don't have a bet? if they knew ahead of time they might have found a different option to play the race.

the place i played with had a tote problem a few weeks ago, i had made my bets earlier before the tote problem. unfortunately all the bets i made lost, so i can't say i got paid for a winning bet.

andymays
04-23-2009, 11:00 AM
yes that is an injustice to a horse player. if they accept the bet, they have no right to cancel it. how does one know ahead of time that they don't have a bet? if they knew ahead of time they might have found a different option to play the race.

the place i played with had a tote problem a few weeks ago, i had made my bets earlier before the tote problem. unfortunately all the bets i made lost, so i can't say i got paid for a winning bet.


Thanks for the input.

I have a feeling TVG was blindsided by this action but they should fight for their customers first and foremost!

lamboguy
04-23-2009, 11:05 AM
Thanks for the input.

I have a feeling TVG was blindsided by this action but they should fight for their customers first and foremost!


sounds to me like you are right. but tvg did have the option of taking the high road or the low road. in my opinion by not paying their players out of their own pockets they chose the low road. if it was me i would have said all bets count and we cannot accept any further bets.

what would have happened if someone placed a bet on a big jackpot and the bet won for something like $100k? that might be a life changing score to someone.

gillenr
04-23-2009, 11:08 AM
While it seems likely that TVG acted legally, if they had "booked" the bets, they would probably have made a profit and people who made losing bets would be complaining.
PS - I wouldn't pay 0.25 to make any bet!

DALLIEDOG
04-23-2009, 11:11 AM
I am still in the dark about what happened didn't TVG know this would /could happen or did the CHRB PULL THE RUG FROM UNDER THEM. If TVG was anticipated a problem why take any bets in the first place ??? help

andymays
04-23-2009, 11:13 AM
Those are all good questions. I sent the email to several members of the Media and the CHRB.

All they have to do is "do their jobs" and we should get to the bottom of this. Easier said than done.

As I said earlier the Horseplayer is always the casualty!

The Judge
04-23-2009, 11:14 AM
to the track , nor do I ask friends who are going to the track to place bets for me. I use to do both. Here is what happened I took a friends pick 3 out to GGF , many years ago. I was in the heat of battle making what I considered large wagers, his was a small combination pick 3 in the late races. At that time only races 6.7+8 had a pick 3.

I normally would have made the bet as soon as I walked into the track but I forgot to place the bet. Of course as luck would have it HIT for $124.00 . I paid him the bet. If he had lost the bet but I didn't make the bet I would have return his bet, which I think was $12 to this day he doesn't know his money never went thru the window.

So I think TVG should pay up, they took the bet. They have a moral duty to pay, here's why, they know all about you. Your s/s number phone # addresses, e-mail etc. What did they do to notify their clients that their bets were not taken, so they could bet elsewhere. Why do they take a full cards wagers at one time? Why not a race at a time.? I know what they will say , we do it as a convenience for you, but the real reason is it helps them cut down on labor and it helps their bottom line.

Issue a warning "call back after the first race to make sure your bets have been placed?" Call back "after each race to make sure your bet has been placed". They don't want you to call back, they want to give the appearance that once you place your bet its a done deal thats why they have the elaborate codes to track your bet and the recordings. Its the same as saying "see nothing up our sleeve your bet is as safe with us as if you place it yourself at the track or at a Las Vegas book."

DALLIEDOG
04-23-2009, 11:19 AM
When you make a TVG bet you gat a Confirmation =What is the use then ???

andymays
04-23-2009, 11:20 AM
A couple more points.

Shouldn't TVG have contacted the Players who thought they had bets in action and let them know so they could place the wagers elsewhere?

Were the wagers refunded after the 1st Race or after the last race. This could be a critical point.

The Judge
04-23-2009, 11:23 AM
Those are good points we were thinking along the same lines I was probablly editing my post while you all were posting your comments so you hadn't seen my post yet.

andymays
04-23-2009, 11:26 AM
I did get one response back so far from Dan Liebman of the BloodHorse. He is looking into it! Good for BloodHorse!

DALLIEDOG
04-23-2009, 11:27 AM
I don't play Ca tracks anymore but I would be pissed big time --just the thought makes me real angry --cause I have both an Xpress bet Acct and TVG account, Wow this is bad>

JimG
04-23-2009, 11:31 AM
if it was me i would have said all bets count and we cannot accept any further bets.



Even the losing bets? Then people would have been clamoring for refunds. If you say only honor the winning bets then you have no idea how much money would have been lost by the company. I am not a huge TVG fan and hate that it happened but unfortunately prior history has reared its ugly head again. This is not the first time this has happened on an opening day.

MartyZee
04-23-2009, 11:43 AM
I feel bad but why would anyone have an account with them where your have to pay to make a bet; I have been playing the horses for over 40 years and have accounts with Nassau OTB-The NYRA and Twinspires and I can assure your that the first time that any shenanigans arose it would be the last time I would place a bet with anyone of them;It's hard enough to beat this game without having another hand in your pocket.

JimG
04-23-2009, 11:48 AM
I feel bad but why would anyone have an account with them where your have to pay to make a bet;

If they bet $2K a month, they do not pay the fee. TVG is one of only a few options in some states so it depends on where someone lives.

Obviously a $2 bettor with many options should not use TVG and pay the fee if he/she has reasonable alternatives.

Jim

BTW, I believe Twin Spires had this problem a few years ago at the opening day of a meet and betting was suspended.

Hajck Hillstrom
04-23-2009, 01:15 PM
What do you believe is the right thing to do here?
Simply change ADW's.

I don't know why anyone would use TVG as a primary ADW. The interface is inferior, and there are certainly more cost effective platforms available. I do have an account with them that I only utilize should any of my other 4 go down.

andymays
04-23-2009, 01:21 PM
I got this response from Mike Marten of the CHRB. Mike is a good guy and always responds no matter how tuff the subject.


Andy:

Here is what I sent to executives with TVG and Betfair. I will let you know how they respond.

Mike



Mr. Asaro makes a compelling argument on behalf of his friend, who placed the bets and received confirmation of their acceptance, only to learn much later that they had been canceled by TVG due to the fee dispute with Hollywood Park. Presumably there are other TVG accountholders in the same situation. I read through the TVG terms and conditions but could not find anything that specifically addressed this type of situation. What does TVG plan to do to address this matter?

With appreciation,

Mike Marten
Staff Analyst Pari-Mutuel Operations Committee
California Horse Racing Board

cj's dad
04-23-2009, 01:25 PM
why in anyone's right mind pay .25 to make a $2 wager? seems to me they have a very flawed business plan at TVG.

i can get you the video, the replays, and all the pp's, get you every single north american track, and lots of other tracks world wide and get you a good rebate to boot.

A TVG subscriber pays $.25 per wager up to $20.00 maximum a month. If you wager $2500 (maybe it's $2000) you get the entire amount refunded the 1st of the next month.

For me the $20 max is not too hard to take- beats driving to the track and most months I get my money refunded. It's all up to the individual user - if the plan doesn't fit your agenda, shop around.

Derbyman32
04-23-2009, 01:32 PM
Leagally TVG probably has their buts covered but ethically they are dead wrong (my way of thinking). I would hope they step up and do the the ethical thing but I am not holding my breath.

andymays
04-23-2009, 01:49 PM
Update from Mike Marten of the CHRB.

Also, I copied our Board counsel, who no doubt will review TVG’s terms and conditions and determine the CHRB’s authority in such matters.

No promises, but we’ll do what we can.

I have not received a response from TVG or Betfair.

philcski
04-23-2009, 04:23 PM
You do realize that they are not legally allowed to "book" the bets, right? I.E. pay out on winning wagers that were not sent to the host track into the parimutuel pool? Their only legal option is to return the original wagers to the player.

The only place in the country that can book bets is Nevada, and they don't even do that anymore (outside of a few shops that have house quinellas.)

cj
04-23-2009, 04:27 PM
You do realize that they are not legally allowed to "book" the bets, right? I.E. pay out on winning wagers that were not sent to the host track into the parimutuel pool? Their only legal option is to return the original wagers to the player.

The only place in the country that can book bets is Nevada, and they don't even do that anymore (outside of a few shops that have house quinellas.)
Whether legal or not, I don't know, but there have been times in the past when bets were canceled due to transmission problems but winning wagers were paid off anyway by the ADW.

andymays
04-23-2009, 04:55 PM
The deal seems to be..

They want people to bet on the races!

They want people to buy their magazines!

They want people to buy their newspapers!

They want people to go to their Horse Racing Websites!

They want people to support the sponsors on their Websites, Newspapers, and Magazines.

The thing is when it comes time to support the very people they need to buy their products they seem not to care!

There is a fundamental problem plaguing the Horse Racing Industry. Apathy for something that doesn’t directly affect you is the problem!

philcski
04-23-2009, 06:25 PM
Whether legal or not, I don't know, but there have been times in the past when bets were canceled due to transmission problems but winning wagers were paid off anyway by the ADW.

What ADW specifically?
While sporting of them I'm not sure what they did was legal.

Imriledup
04-23-2009, 06:26 PM
Any company who charges you to wager is a blight on the industry.

As far as TVG not being allowed to 'book' the bets, what they can do is to just give each horseplayer who got the shaft a 'bonus' into their accounts. Give the bonus that is equivalent to what the horseplayer lost.

If you're waiting for TVG to do the right thing, you're probably going to be waiting a pretty long time.

andymays
04-23-2009, 06:30 PM
Any company who charges you to wager is a blight on the industry.

As far as TVG not being allowed to 'book' the bets, what they can do is to just give each horseplayer who got the shaft a 'bonus' into their accounts. Give the bonus that is equivalent to what the horseplayer lost.

If you're waiting for TVG to do the right thing, you're probably going to be waiting a pretty long time.


I think they need to be nudged in the right direction. I sent the email to the LA Times, The BloodHorse, The Paulick Report, The New York Times, The CHRB, and several others.

These entities need to step up and shame TVG and whoever else caused this.

Or are they worried about losing advertising dollars from TVG? I would hope that they would step up. We'll see tomorrow!

rrbauer
04-23-2009, 06:53 PM
What ADW specifically?
While sporting of them I'm not sure what they did was legal.

I've had youbet make good on bets that got screwed up because of something that they did/didn't do. I've had PTC make good on bets because of something that they did/didn't do.

I think that in this thread's example/issue, TVG knowing that it did not have a deal with Hollywood should've made it known that bets on Hollywood were being taken on condition that they got their deal approved. This would've been a heads-up to players who could've taken their action elsewhere. TVG did not do that, because they're: a)stupid; b)greedy; c)indifferent to their customers; d)all of the above. Now, what's going to happen? Short of a customer lawsuit, TVG gets their hands slapped by the CHRB and players go away mad.

andymays
04-23-2009, 07:14 PM
Good for the BloodHorse. This is from Ryan Conley.


From: Ryan Conley [mailto:rconley@bloodhorse.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 2:57 PM
To: Andy
Subject: FW: Not Paying on Bets Taken by TVG

Hi Andy,

I was forwarded your e-mail earlier today from Dan Liebman to look into the situation you described. I just wanted to update you that neither TVG nor Betfair has responded to calls and e-mails about the situation. I will continue to try and get responses from them.

Please keep me updated if you hear anything about TVG and/or Betfair resolving the situation with your friend.

Thanks,
Ryan

Isn't it nice that TVG and Betfair don't care?

PaceAdvantage
04-23-2009, 07:29 PM
I had to change the title of this thread to more accurately reflect the fact that TVG did NOT keep losing wagers either...they didn't just "not pay winning wagers."

PaceAdvantage
04-23-2009, 07:32 PM
So I think TVG should pay up, they took the bet.Should they keep all the losing bets that were placed as well? How unfair would that be?

If I made a bet with an ADW and later found out the ADW wasn't able to transmit the bets to the host track because of some dispute, thus no bets were actually placed, I'd be pretty upset if I didn't get a refund of my losing wagers...

PaceAdvantage
04-23-2009, 07:34 PM
I have not received a response from TVG or Betfair.What does Betfair have to do with this again? This part was not explained anywhere in this thread.

andymays
04-23-2009, 07:36 PM
Should they keep all the losing bets that were placed as well? How unfair would that be?

If I made a bet with an ADW and later found out the ADW wasn't able to transmit the bets to the host track because of some dispute, thus no bets were actually placed, I'd be pretty upset if I didn't get a refund of my losing wagers...


Pace, they at least should have contacted all the Players that had bets in so they could place them elsewhere. I will grant you that TVG may have been blindsided by this but we still don't know exactly what happened.

Someone is at fault here and it isn't the Horseplayer.

andymays
04-23-2009, 07:37 PM
What does Betfair have to do with this again? This part was not explained anywhere in this thread.


BetFair owns TVG. The CHRB and BloodHorse magazine have been trying to contact them on the players behalf.

PaceAdvantage
04-23-2009, 07:38 PM
BetFair owns TVG. The CHRB and BloodHorse magazine have been trying to contact them on the players behalf.Ahhh....duh! Thanks for reminding me...

PaceAdvantage
04-23-2009, 07:40 PM
Now that I think about it...technically, the title of this thread is completely wrong. No wagers were actually EVER made.

Thus, "TVG did not pay on winning wagers" is dead wrong.

TVG is simply a conduit to getting money in the track pools. I'm not saying it's an ideal situation, but that's the price you pay for the convenience of betting online. TVG never got the money into the pools, thus no wagers were ever made.

Thankfully, something like this is NOT a common occurance.

andymays
04-23-2009, 07:42 PM
Now that I think about it...technically, the title of this thread is completely wrong. No wagers were actually EVER made.

Thus, "TVG did not pay on winning wagers" is dead wrong.

TVG is simply a conduit to getting money in the track pools. I'm not saying it's an ideal situation, but that's the price you pay for the convenience of betting online. TVG never got the money into the pools, thus no wagers were ever made.

Thankfully, something like this is NOT a common occurance.


The tickets have confirmation numbers next to them. They were phoned in and confirmed before 1:00 pm pst.

PaceAdvantage
04-23-2009, 07:48 PM
The tickets have confirmation numbers next to them. They were phoned in and confirmed before 1:00 pm pst.Yes, to TVG...NOT to Hollywood. You got confirmation that your bet was received by TVG.

When the bets get dumped into the host track pools is a completely different story. NO ADWs that I am aware of gives confirmation of when bets are actually dumped into the track pools.

Brogan
04-23-2009, 07:50 PM
The tickets have confirmation numbers next to them. They were phoned in and confirmed before 1:00 pm pst.

I'm willing to bet (pun intended) that the confirmation only means that TVG received the information in the correct format, enabling them to transmit the wager information down the line.

andymays
04-23-2009, 07:50 PM
Pace if the player is at work and phones them in and gets a confirmation and then the bets win and he is not paid where is the justice?

The Horseplayer should not take the loss. TVG should!

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 07:54 PM
Is the guy this happened to complaining and writing letters also? What is his whole take on this?

PaceAdvantage
04-23-2009, 07:57 PM
Pace if the player is at work and phones them in and gets a confirmation and then the bets win and he is not paid where is the justice?

The Horseplayer should not take the loss. TVG should!Where is the justice (under your desired scenario) for the guy who makes the same bets, only they turn out to be losers?

What you are suggesting means that it would only be fair if TVG kept the money from the losing wagers. Now you have a whole new set of outraged folks, don't you?

andymays
04-23-2009, 07:58 PM
Is the guy this happened to complaining and writing letters also? What is his whole take on this?


He was going to eat it like most Horseplayers have done in the past. I've been telling him about HANA for a while now and also told him I would help him get this resolved in some way.

This could happen to any of us and it is unacceptable!

PaceAdvantage
04-23-2009, 08:00 PM
Actually, what's unacceptable is that I just saw Patrick Biancone walking around the paddock of Hollywood Park...but that's neither here nor there...

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 08:01 PM
He was going to eat it like most Horseplayers have done in the past. I've been telling him about HANA for a while now and also told him I would help him get this resolved in some way.

This could happen to any of us and it is unacceptable!

You didn't answer the question. Is he writing letters and complaining to people also or is it just you?

andymays
04-23-2009, 08:04 PM
You didn't answer the question. Is he writing letters and complaining to people also or is it just you?



This happened yesterday afternoon. He doesn't have a computer and he has to go to work so no he hasn't sent any letters out. He did call yesterday and complained to TVG.

I sent the email I started this Post to the CHRB, BloodHorse, LA Times, New York Times, Paulick Report, Pasadena Star News, and several others.

TVG and BetFair are not returning their calls as you can see by their responses that I have posted earlier.

rwwupl
04-23-2009, 08:05 PM
Ahhh....duh! Thanks for reminding me...


Good work Andy. I wish there more like you to get involved and ask questions on behalf pari-mutuel participants.

Thanks for your efforts. rwwupl

andymays
04-23-2009, 08:08 PM
Good work Andy. I wish there more like you to get involved and ask questions on behalf pari-mutuel participants.

Thanks for your efforts. rwwupl


Thanks for the kind comments.

For me this is where the "rubber meets the road" for Horseplayers and if you dont get angry about this then we might as well all lay down.

This is what HANA is all about right?

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 08:09 PM
I wonder if you might get a better response by having the person this actually happened to do the complaining. Your efforts have been noble, but do you expect TVG or anyone involved with it to discuss the situation with someone who was not affected by it? I don't. Why should they?

andymays
04-23-2009, 08:13 PM
I wonder if you might get a better response by having the person this actually happened to do the complaining. Your efforts have been noble, but do you expect TVG or anyone involved with it to discuss the situation with someone who was not affected by it? I don't. Why should they?


The CHRB has a say and as far as the BloodHorse goes does TVG want this bad publicity?

As consumers of a product we have a right to go elsewhere. I always stick up for my friends especially if they happen to be Horseplayers!

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 08:25 PM
The CHRB has a say and as far as the BloodHorse goes does TVG want this bad publicity?

As consumers of a product we have a right to go elsewhere. I always stick up for my friends especially if they happen to be Horseplayers!

I understand the frustration and have been in a similar situation. I guess I think it's unrealistic to think TVG was going to contact each and everyone person who made bets with them on races 2-8 to tell them about this. It's just not very practical for them.

Do I think it sucks for your friend? Absolutely. But I don't know if giving him whatever he would have won, is the right thing either. Because if the situation was reversed, or if the bets were all losers, would you or your friend have cared?

Steve 'StatMan'
04-23-2009, 08:32 PM
Wonder what kind of options TVG had in this situation, appearently a dispute with Hollywood Park about the fees.

Sure, they could have just agreed to Hollywood Park's demand and put the wagers through today and for the rest of the meet at a rate that TVG apprearently didn't want for a whole meet.

They and/or Hollywood choose the don't accept/refund all wagers option.

Did TVG or Hollywood give each other a 3rd option? Namely, come up with an agreeable rate (or pay Hollywood's rate for 1 day) just for the bets TVG has already taken on Hollywood Park's races - just to keep the betting customers that BOTH outfits ought to be taking care of for future business, and to take care of each other, since TVG & Hollywood Park will want to do business together in the future. Further wagers could have been suspended until an agreement was reached, but at least no one was left with angry customers with bets down.

Obviously if either actually thought about and gave the 3rd option, the other one didn't accept it, and now TVG looks bad to their customers, and it might be a combination of TVG and/or Hollywood Park's fault.

I don't know if they players could think outside the box and work together - but minimally good business sense would have been to get through the day. Then again, does Hollywood Park actually care about TVG's customers or TVG - "They'll bet us again when the signal is available or use other options" or TVG "Well, we'll have to refund everything and hope people don't use another provider over us today or in the future."

To me at least, Hollywood Park as well as TVG look bad over this. Shame on them both. They could have helped each other through this squabble. This was the classic business "$1 Problem" that they turned into the "$100 Problem" by fighting each other instead of working together.

andymays
04-23-2009, 08:33 PM
I understand the frustration and have been in a similar situation. I guess I think it's unrealistic to think TVG was going to contact each and everyone person who made bets with them on races 2-8 to tell them about this. It's just not very practical for them.

Do I think it sucks for your friend? Absolutely. But I don't know if giving him whatever he would have won, is the right thing either. Because if the situation was reversed, or if the bets were all losers, would you or your friend have cared?


I don't think TVG and my friend have equal standing here. He is their customer and placed the bets in good faith. For this to happen TVG dropped the ball somewhere by not complying with whatever they needed to comply with.

PaceAdvantage
04-23-2009, 08:36 PM
For this to happen TVG dropped the ball somewhere by not complying with whatever they needed to comply with.I find it hard to believe that somewhere in the TVG fine print it doesn't SPECIFICALLY STATE exactly what should happen IF wagers placed on the TVG system (either by PC or Phone) NEVER make it to the host track.

Forget about this contract dispute...this could happen if a router goes down, if their servers crash, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I'm sure when you sign up to TVG, somehow, someway you are presented with all the fine print, which most assuredly covers this kind of contingency.

The fact that most people skip over the fine print doesn't make it any less in force.

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 08:37 PM
I don't think TVG and my friend have equal standing here. He is there customer and placed the bets in good faith. For this to happen TVG dropped the ball somewhere by not complying with whatever they needed to comply with.

So what happens to all of the people that made bets that were losers? Should they have to pay TVG back instead of getting the refund that was given to them? It's not as black and white as you are trying to make it.

andymays
04-23-2009, 08:38 PM
I find it hard to believe that somewhere in the TVG fine print it doesn't SPECIFICALLY STATE exactly what should happen IF wagers placed on the TVG system (either by PC or Phone) NEVER make it to the host track.

Forget about this contract dispute...this could happen if a router goes down, if their servers crash, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I'm sure when you sign up to TVG, somehow, someway you are presented with all the fine print, which most assuredly covers this kind of contingency.

The fact that most people skip over the fine print doesn't make it any less in force.

This didn't make it to the track if that's the case through man made stuff that could have been foreseen by TVG or the party that caused it.

It was not an act of God.

andymays
04-23-2009, 08:41 PM
Pace, I totally got it that TVG probably is legally right. That doens't make it right and Horseplayers should not have to worry about fine print when they make a bet.

The CHRB is currently looking at their language to make sure it is legal!

PaceAdvantage
04-23-2009, 08:45 PM
Horseplayers should not have to worry about fine print when they make a bet.OF COURSE THEY FREAKIN' SHOULD!

YOU ARE GIVING THEM YOUR MONEY. DON'T YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE BEFORE YOU PLAY THE GAME? How do you NOT read the fine print, especially where it concerns your money?!?!?!?

Damn...

andymays
04-23-2009, 08:48 PM
OF COURSE THEY FREAKIN' SHOULD!

YOU ARE GIVING THEM YOUR MONEY. DON'T YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE BEFORE YOU PLAY THE GAME?

Damn man...


The rules are that you make a bet and get a confirmation. Just like at the Track when you get a ticket. The ticket is proof that you place a wager. What Horseplayer could have foreseen what took place?

TVG should step up and do the right thing by the Horseplayer (customer)!

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 08:51 PM
The rules are that you make a bet and get a confirmation. Just like at the Track when you get a ticket. The ticket is proof that you place a wager. What Horseplayer could have foreseen what took place?

TVG should step up and do the right thing by the Horseplayer (customer)!

So what happens to all of the people that made bets that were losers? Should they have to pay TVG back instead of getting the refund that was given to them? It's not as black and white as you are trying to make it.

PaceAdvantage
04-23-2009, 08:55 PM
The rules are that you make a bet and get a confirmation. Just like at the Track when you get a ticket. The ticket is proof that you place a wager. What Horseplayer could have foreseen what took place?

TVG should step up and do the right thing by the Horseplayer (customer)!No, those aren't the rules. And when you make a bet at the track (as long as it's a bet on a race run at THAT track and not a SIMULCAST bet), your money goes directly into the track's pools.

Not the case with an ADW. Your money SITS at the ADW until the WAGER IS ACTUALLY PLACED AT A LATER TIME WITH THE HOST TRACK.

A completely different process than at the track (unless you are betting a SIMULCAST race at the track...then the process is similar).

What exactly are the rules here andy? Give us some exact quotes from the TVG website regarding what happens to wagers that for some reason or another, don't make it to the host track. I know they have to be posted somewhere on their site...

Oh wait, I found it...it isn't even in SMALL PRINT...it's actually NORMAL SIZED...under the "TERMS AND CONDITIONS" link...allow me to quote:

All wagers are considered final when a confirmation is received from our totalizator service provider and your wager is commingled with the host pool. If for some reason we are unable to commingle your wager with the host pool, your wager will be refunded to your account.Emphasis mine...

You don't even have to scroll down on that page to read that part...it's in the seventh paragraph....

andymays
04-23-2009, 08:56 PM
So what happens to all of the people that made bets that were losers? Should they have to pay TVG back instead of getting the refund that was given to them? It's not as black and white as you are trying to make it.

When the Horseplayer makes a bet in good faith it should be honored. As far as the losing bets go if the Player didn't know what happened they would have no expectation of getting their money back. If TVG is in the business of taking bets from Horseplayers and they want Horseplayers to give them their business then TVG should not give the Horseplayers "the business"!

andymays
04-23-2009, 08:57 PM
No, those aren't the rules. And when you make a bet at the track (as long as it's a bet on a race run at THAT track and not a SIMULCAST bet), your money goes directly into the track's pools.

Not the case with an ADW. Your money SITS at the ADW until the WAGER IS ACTUALLY PLACED AT A LATER TIME WITH THE HOST TRACK.

A completely different process than at the track (unless you are betting a SIMULCAST race at the track...then the process is similar).

What exactly are the rules here andy? Give us some exact quotes from the TVG website regarding what happens to wagers that for some reason or another, don't make it to the host track. I know they have to be posted somewhere on their site...

Oh wait, I found it...it isn't even in SMALL PRINT...it's actually NORMAL SIZED...under the "TERMS AND CONDITIONS" link...allow me to quote:

Emphasis mine...

You don't even have to scroll down on that page to read that part...it's in the seventh paragraph....


I guess I'm not doing too good a job of making this clear. I have stated before that TVG is probably legally right. That doesn't make it right!

When there is a dispute at a Black Jack Table or a Craps Table and it is not conclusive either way the House usually takes care of the Player!

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 08:59 PM
Would you or your friend be complaining if all of his wagers were losing ones?

andymays
04-23-2009, 09:02 PM
Would you or your friend be complaining if all of his wagers were losing ones?


If he didn't know what happened he would take the losses like he always has. I'm sure if he lost and was refunded the money he would be happy like anyone else.

Who has the greater obligation here TVG or the Horseplayer?

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 09:07 PM
If he didn't know what happened he would take the losses like he always has. I'm sure if he lost and was refunded the money he would be happy like anyone else.

Who has the greater obligation here TVG or the Horseplayer?

I fail to see how TVG didn't live up to their obligation. They could not place the bet, so it was refunded. It's not as though the kept just the losers and refunded the winners. They refunded ALL bets. it sucks, but I'm not sure what TVG should do. You can't expect them to pay everyone out now, after they have already refunded winners AND losers do you?

andymays
04-23-2009, 09:11 PM
I fail to see how TVG didn't live up to their obligation. They could not place the bet, so it was refunded. It's not as though the kept just the losers and refunded the winners. They refunded ALL bets. it sucks, but I'm not sure what TVG should do. You can't expect them to pay everyone out now, after they have already refunded winners AND losers do you?


Yes I expect them to pay out and take care of all their customers. If he had hit a pick 6 for a million bucks and thought he had won this would make the national news. But because it's a little guy and it's only $1000 or so dollars it's no big deal.

This should be a big deal to every Horseplayer. The whole point of HANA is to have a common voice so when something goes against a Horseplayer for whatever reason he has some support.

Relwob Owner
04-23-2009, 09:13 PM
Pace, I totally got it that TVG probably is legally right. That doens't make it right and Horseplayers should not have to worry about fine print when they make a bet.

The CHRB is currently looking at their language to make sure it is legal!

Uh, yeah, horseplayers should have to worry about the fine print and people should in every situation.....what you are maintaining TVG should do is way off the mark IMHO....if they didnt have the "fine print" that you say should not be worried about, it would be chaos

andymays
04-23-2009, 09:14 PM
Uh, yeah, horseplayers should have to worry about the fine print and people should in every situation.....what you are maintaining TVG should do is way off the mark IMHO....if they didnt have the "fine print" that you say should not be worried about, it would be chaos


I'm not getting your point. Should they pay off or not?

Relwob Owner
04-23-2009, 09:17 PM
Yes I expect them to pay out and take care of all their customers. If he had hit a pick 6 for a million bucks and thought he had won this would make the national news. But because it's a little guy and it's only $1000 or so dollars it's no big deal.

This should be a big deal to every Horseplayer. The whole point of HANA is to have a common voice so when something goes against a Horseplayer for whatever reason he has some support.

I am a horseplayer and this isnt a big deal at all.....they couldnt make the bet, there was nothing they could do, so it was refunded....tough. These things happen in racing and if you cant deal with it, dont bet...horses get scratched in last legs of Pick 4's and you get stuck with a horse you dont want, halves of entries get scratched and your bet isnt active, etc. etc. etc....it is also a risk you take if you make any bet online......seems like you could direct your anger towards the racing officials in CA responsible for this mess, not TVG

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 09:18 PM
Yes I expect them to pay out and take care of all their customers. If he had hit a pick 6 for a million bucks and thought he had won this would make the national news. But because it's a little guy and it's only $1000 or so dollars it's no big deal.

This should be a big deal to every Horseplayer. The whole point of HANA is to have a common voice so when something goes against a Horseplayer for whatever reason he has some support.

You keep saying little guy as though that has any impact on what happened. It doesn't. I'm not saying it's no big deal, but think you are being unreasonable for thinking they should pay for wagers they didn't place and overly dramatic with the little guy stuff.

Relwob Owner
04-23-2009, 09:19 PM
I'm not getting your point. Should they pay off or not?


No. I am sure their policy is what they went with and when your friend signed up with TVG, he signed on to that policy

andymays
04-23-2009, 09:21 PM
You keep saying little guy as though that has any impact on what happened. It doesn't. I'm not saying it's no big deal, but think you are being unreasonable for thinking they should pay for wagers they didn't place and overly dramatic with the little guy stuff.


It matters that he placed them! Horseplayers are the "little guys" in the grand scheme of things. When have they ever been taken care of by the Tracks or the Wagering companies?

The Horseplayer has always taken the worst of it. That is why HANA is a great thing.

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 09:25 PM
The Horseplayer has always taken the worst of it. That is why HANA is a great thing.

I agree, and as someone that bets almost daily a lot of the stuff we endure is unaccepatable. I just think your fight is a losing one here. TVG did what their TOS says. It's going to be kind of tough to fight that, no matter how sweet you try and make the story.

andymays
04-23-2009, 09:27 PM
I agree, and as someone that bets almost daily a lot of the stuff we endure is unaccepatable. I just think your fight is a losing one here. TVG did what their TOS says. It's going to be kind of tough to fight that, no matter how sweet you try and make the story.


I know it's probably a losing fight. To me it's a cause worth fighting for because this can happen to anyone and I wouldn't like it if it happened to me.

Part of the problem has always been apathy on the part of most Horseplayers. Unless things happen directly to them they don't really care.

Relwob Owner
04-23-2009, 09:29 PM
I know it's probably a losing fight. To me it's a cause worth fighting for because this can happen to anyone and I wouldn't like it if it happened to me.

Part of the problem has always been apathy on the part of most Horseplayers. Unless things happen directly to them they don't really care.


Your enthusiasm is good but I think it is smartest to save time and energy for battles you can win and this isnt one of them....this comes under the "bad break" category, not a "screwed over" one...........

andymays
04-23-2009, 09:31 PM
Your enthusiasm is good but I think it is smartest to save time and energy for battles you can win and this isnt one of them....this comes under the "bad break" category, not a "screwed over" one...........

We'll see. I think my chances are about 3-1.

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 09:32 PM
I know it's probably a losing fight. To me it's a cause worth fighting for because this can happen to anyone and I wouldn't like it if it happened to me.

Part of the problem has always been apathy on the part of most Horseplayers. Unless things happen directly to them they don't really care.

It's got nothing to do with apathy at all. If all of your friends bets had lost you wouldn't have said a word. Where would your apathy have been to all of the others?

I care, but disagree with you that TVG should go against their TOS to pay your friend. In my opinion there are far worse problems we face as bettors than someone having their winners AND losers refunded because the ADW they have chosen cannot place their wagers.

andymays
04-23-2009, 09:34 PM
It's got nothing to do with apathy at all. If all of your friends bets had lost you wouldn't have said a word. Where would your apathy have been to all of the others?

I care, but disagree with you that TVG should go against their TOS to pay your friend. In my opinion there are far worse problems we face as bettors than someone having their winners AND losers refunded because the ADW they have chosen cannot place their wagers.


Can you name a couple of the bigger problems that would be more important than a Horseplayer makeing a bet in good faith and getting refunded instead of the winning payout?

Relwob Owner
04-23-2009, 09:34 PM
We'll see. I think my chances are about 3-1.


Hate to be brutally honest here but if it is in the fine print, it is more like a million to one....your "little guy" and "take care of the bettor" angles wont get you anywhere.

rwwupl
04-23-2009, 09:34 PM
From what Andy has done,and contacted on this matter, I think we will have a definitive answer sometime soon. Some will agree and some will not agree.

Andy has brought up legitimate questions, and has qualified people looking into the matter.

What is wrong with that?

When we get their answers,shortly, then we can argue if they did the right thing.

Does anybody think Andy should not ask the questions ? No one else has asked.

Be glad to hear what the authorities,writers,after research have to say about this unusual incident.

Thanks again Andy

Relwob Owner
04-23-2009, 09:37 PM
Can you name a couple of the bigger problems that would be more important than a Horseplayer makeing a bet in good faith and getting refunded instead of the winning payout?


Good lord, man.....TVG is a middle man so the possibility of this happening is actually not that remote. The horseplayer made a bet with a service that has rules and when it broke bad because of a unique situation, the horseplayer came out on the short end of the stick. Tough.

The convenience that we all get from betting on line comes with a price and this is an example of it....if it is TVG's policy, tough.

andymays
04-23-2009, 09:39 PM
Good lord, man.....TVG is a middle man so the possibility of this happening is actually not that remote. The horseplayer made a bet with a service that has rules and when it broke bad because of a unique situation, the horseplayer came out on the short end of the stick. Tough.

The convenience that we all get from betting on line comes with a price and this is an example of it....if it is TVG's policy, tough.


I've been hearing the "tough" comments all my life when it comes to Horseplayers. Thanks for reminding me what I'm sticking up for!

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 09:39 PM
Can you name a couple of the bigger problems that would be more important than a Horseplayer makeing a bet in good faith and getting refunded instead of the winning payout?

I know you understand why TVG refunded his bet, so there really is no point going over that again is there?

For starters I think the takeout's in general are ridiculous. I don't like that trainers are allowed to cheat and they are given slaps on the wrist. because by cheating they are cheating horseplayers. I also have a big issue with the way we are taxed as horseplayers. I think it's ridiculous that if I hit for over 5 grand this weekend, I have to give the government an interest free loan for the next 12-15 months.

Off the top of my head those rank higher to me than your friend getting his winning and losing tickets refunded because TVG was unable to place his wagers.

Relwob Owner
04-23-2009, 09:40 PM
I've been hearing the "tough" comments all my life when it comes to Horseplayers. Thanks for reminding me what I'm sticking up for!


Honestly, it probably means you are fighting a lot of battles that arent worth fighting but more power to you.

andymays
04-23-2009, 09:40 PM
Honestly, it probably means you are fighting a lot of battles that arent worth fighting but more power to you.


I'm kinda dumb that way!

DJofSD
04-23-2009, 10:02 PM
For all of those who use TVG, I say this: money talks, B.S walks. By that I mean, take your business elsewhere. You still have time to find another ADW company, open and fund an account with them in time for the KY Derby. Close your account with TVG and bet the up coming Triple Crown races with a different service. Otherwise, shut up!

andymays
04-23-2009, 10:03 PM
Update from Mike Marten of the CHRB

I went to TVG headquarters today and spoke with an executive. They are aware of the problem and he indicated they would be taking some sort of action to satisfy their customers. He did not provide details of what that action would be. I anticipate hearing the details at tomorrow’s CHRB meeting (2 p.m. at Hollywood Park) if not before.


Andymays says "How about that sports fans. The ball is moving forward. Stay Tuned"!

Relwob Owner
04-23-2009, 10:15 PM
From what Andy has done,and contacted on this matter, I think we will have a definitive answer sometime soon. Some will agree and some will not agree.

Andy has brought up legitimate questions, and has qualified people looking into the matter.

What is wrong with that?

When we get their answers,shortly, then we can argue if they did the right thing.

Does anybody think Andy should not ask the questions ? No one else has asked.

Be glad to hear what the authorities,writers,after research have to say about this unusual incident.

Thanks again Andy


I honestly dont understand what TVG was supposed to do here.....they refunded ALL wagers so they didnt stand to gain anything from it....should they have just "booked" the best? Nope, they cant do that.....I have heard a bunch of complaints but really no solutions.....many say they should pay out winners but that would mean taking money in from the losing ones and that would lead to a HUGE uproar from those people......


All my thoughts are assuming that there is fine print that they acted upon....

andymays
04-23-2009, 10:20 PM
Update from Mike Marten of the CHRB

I went to TVG headquarters today and spoke with an executive. They are aware of the problem and he indicated they would be taking some sort of action to satisfy their customers. He did not provide details of what that action would be. I anticipate hearing the details at tomorrow’s CHRB meeting (2 p.m. at Hollywood Park) if not before.


Andymays says "How about that sports fans. The ball is moving forward. Stay Tuned"!


It's gonna be discussed at the CHRB meeting at Hollywood Park. That's something!

chickenhead
04-23-2009, 10:37 PM
if TVG does anything that will be nice of them -- but it would not in any way be something (if I were in a similar situation) that I felt was due, or required.

I think that is maybe where the break down in opinion is happening here. Sure, it would great if they paid off the winners and refunded the losers -- that is really going above and beyond the call of duty, and kudos to them if they go that far -- but it is not ethically required. They have a policy that makes sense, and they followed it.

If they actually instituted the policy to pay off all winners and refund losers in case of oddball occurrences, they probably would have to carry a very large insurance policy of some sort just to protect themselves -- which we'd then all have to pay for in some form or another...and I really don't think it's worth it.

There are no free lunches, ultimately.

andymays
04-23-2009, 10:40 PM
Legally it's probably not required for them to pay but we will find out tommorrw what the real deal is or was.

In my opinion ethically they should pay!

Dahoss9698
04-23-2009, 10:42 PM
if TVG does anything that will be nice of them -- but it would not in any way be something (if I were in a similar situation) that I felt was due, or required.

I think that is maybe where the break down in opinion is happening here. Sure, it would great if they paid off the winners and refunded the losers -- that is really going above and beyond the call of duty, and kudos to them if they go that far -- but it is not ethically required. They have a policy that makes sense, and they followed it.

If they actually instituted the policy to pay off all winners and refund losers in case of oddball occurrences, they probably would have to carry a very large insurance policy of some sort just to protect themselves -- which we'd then all have to pay for in some form or another...and I really don't think it's worth it.

There are no free lunches, ultimately.

I think you summed up this whole thing pretty good. As a bettor I think what happened stinks, but ultimately the blame is on no one and TVG did what their policy says they do. You live and learn and hopefully the guy chooses another ADW. He isn't owed anything by TVG.

rwwupl
04-23-2009, 10:52 PM
STATE OF CALIFORNIA ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, GOVERNOR
CALIFORNIA HORSE RACING BOARD
1010 HURLEY WAY, SUITE 300
SACRAMENTO, CA 95825
(916) 263-6000
FAX (916) 263-6042
NOTICE OF MEETING
Notice is hereby given that a meeting of the California Horse Racing Board will be held on
Friday, April 24, 2009, commencing at 2:00 p.m., at the Hollywood Park Casino, 3883 West
Century Blvd., Inglewood, California. The audio portion only of the California Horse Racing
Board regular meeting will be available online through a link at the CHRB website(www.chrb.ca.gov) under “Webcasts.”
The agenda for the regular meeting will consist of the following matters:
Action Items:
1. Approval of the minutes of the regular meeting of March 19, 2009.
2. Approval of the minutes of the regular meeting of February 26, 2009.
3. Discussion and action by the Board on the request from the California Authority of
Racing Fairs, (CARF) to designate the following allocated race dates as a combined
fair horse racing meeting, pursuant to Business and Professions Code section 19549.1:
San Joaquin County Fair, June 18, 2009 through June 28, 2009; Alameda County Fair, July
1, 2009 through July 19, 2009; Solano County Fair, July 22, 2009 through July 26, 2009;
CARF at Golden Gate Fields, August 12, 2009 through August 23, 2009; CARF at Golden
Gate Fields, September 9, 2009 through October 4, 2009 and the Big Fresno Fair, October
7, 2009 through October 18, 2009.
4. Discussion and action by the Board on the Application for License to Operate a
Minisatellite Wagering Facility of the California Commerce Club Inc., for a period of
up to but not exceeding two years.
5. Discussion and action by the Board regarding the 2009/2010-budget formula to be
developed pursuant to Senate Bill 16 (Ashburn), Chapter 12, Statutes of 2009.
6. Discussion and action by the Board regarding an increase in the take-out on conventional
and exotic wagers on races conducted by thoroughbred racing associations as
permitted by Business and Professions Code section 19601.01 and the modification of
California advance deposit wagering (ADW) distributions on thoroughbred races as
permitted under Business and Professions Code section 19604(f) (5)(E).
7. Discussion and action by the Board regarding the update from the Los Angeles Turf
Club Inc. operating at Santa Anita Park and the significance of the bankruptcy filing
of Magna Entertainment Corporation on its racing operations.

andymays
04-23-2009, 10:55 PM
Thanks for the information. I'll be sure to listen in. It should be almost as lively as this Forum!

rwwupl
04-23-2009, 11:40 PM
If you have questions to ask about this matter or another matter on the agenda, I think you can call the switchboard at Hollywood Park and ask to speak to the CHRB meeting room while the meeting is on and have a rep. ask your question if it is appropriate. (310-419-1549)

I suspect some may also be interested in Item#6--A discussion over a raise in takeout.

InsideThePylons-MW
04-23-2009, 11:41 PM
Forget about this contract dispute...this could happen if a router goes down, if their servers crash, etc. etc. etc. etc.


I think you are missing the point PA.

TVG was accepting bets on a track that they did not have a contract for and obviously had to have more than a reasonable chance the bets would not be active.

It was not an unforseeable problem.....it was basically fraud.

PaceAdvantage
04-24-2009, 12:11 AM
I think you are missing the point PA.

TVG was accepting bets on a track that they did not have a contract for and obviously had to have more than a reasonable chance the bets would not be active.

It was not an unforseeable problem.....it was basically fraud.If this can be proven, then your point is certainly a valid one. I'm not totally familiar with what was going on in the hours and days prior to the first bet being accepted on TVG.

It isn't unheard of for one party to completely believe they have an ironclad agreement, and then something breaks down last second.

cj
04-24-2009, 12:35 AM
I agree, the main problem is they had the track on the menu without a contract. Imagine if someone placed a Pick 6 bet and would have won a huge sum, only to find out after the fact the bet was never going to be placed.

At the very least, TVG should have notified account holders via e-mail, or even phone, that the bets were not going to happen. That way, at least bettors could have tried other options if it was important to them.

cj
04-24-2009, 12:36 AM
If this can be proven, then your point is certainly a valid one. I'm not totally familiar with what was going on in the hours and days prior to the first bet being accepted on TVG.

It isn't unheard of for one party to completely believe they have an ironclad agreement, and then something breaks down last second.

If something broke down, there was never an official agreement. No way Hollywood should have been on the menu without some sort of disclaimer.

PaceAdvantage
04-24-2009, 12:47 AM
First ITP and now CJ...I have to say you guys make a compelling argument. I may have been too quick to dismiss Mr. Mays complaint.

Are we 100% sure TVG provided absolutely no notice via email, website, or betting interface?

cj
04-24-2009, 12:54 AM
First ITP and now CJ...I have to say you guys make a compelling argument. I may have been too quick to dismiss Mr. Mays complaint.

Are we 100% sure TVG provided absolutely no notice via email, website, or betting interface?

No, just an assumption. If there was any type notice at all, especially beforehand, it would be forgivable.

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 12:55 AM
First ITP and now CJ...I have to say you guys make a compelling argument. I may have been too quick to dismiss Mr. Mays complaint.

Are we 100% sure TVG provided absolutely no notice via email, website, or betting interface?

Like you, now that more has come out, I may have been a bit too quick with my opinion. Honestly, with no real facts from the original poster, it was kind of hard to tell. It's pretty shady to have a track on your menu, when you have no contract with them. That much wasn't mentioned until ITP just did. So were wagers accepted on the first race?

cmoore
04-24-2009, 12:55 AM
Good lord, man.....TVG is a middle man so the possibility of this happening is actually not that remote. The horseplayer made a bet with a service that has rules and when it broke bad because of a unique situation, the horseplayer came out on the short end of the stick. Tough.

The convenience that we all get from betting on line comes with a price and this is an example of it....if it is TVG's policy, tough.

Unique sitiuation you call it...If there's no contract in writing, then no betting should of been offered. PERIOD!!!! It's just that simple..

cmoore
04-24-2009, 12:57 AM
Yes I expect them to pay out and take care of all their customers. If he had hit a pick 6 for a million bucks and thought he had won this would make the national news. But because it's a little guy and it's only $1000 or so dollars it's no big deal.

This should be a big deal to every Horseplayer. The whole point of HANA is to have a common voice so when something goes against a Horseplayer for whatever reason he has some support.

I agree with you 100%...You should get paid..

PaceAdvantage
04-24-2009, 01:04 AM
Actually, this friend of his bet via phone...so unless there was a voice on the other end telling him HOL may or may not be a go (and I doubt there was such a voice), he quite possibly would never have received any email or website notice, even if TVG DID send one out...

ITP is quite right...this is unlike a router going down or a server crash. This is something that was easily foreseeable by those in the know at TVG. An example needs to be made here so something like this does not happen again.

Bettowin
04-24-2009, 01:11 AM
I called in my Powerball numbers. A person or recording from India (sounded like it or maybe Nigeria) confirmed my numbers and I was good.

Well my numbers hit and now I can't get paid either:)


Did they give back losing bets? If so they messed up and it happens. Gonna check my account because if they gave back losing bets I might have a positive balance:)

Imriledup
04-24-2009, 01:40 AM
I am a horseplayer and this isnt a big deal at all.....they couldnt make the bet, there was nothing they could do, so it was refunded....tough. These things happen in racing and if you cant deal with it, dont bet...horses get scratched in last legs of Pick 4's and you get stuck with a horse you dont want, halves of entries get scratched and your bet isnt active, etc. etc. etc....it is also a risk you take if you make any bet online......seems like you could direct your anger towards the racing officials in CA responsible for this mess, not TVG

I disagree. This is a big deal. We can't have arrogant ADW spouting off about how great they are and they can't even place the bets for the customer AFTER CHARGING HIM 25 CENTS FOR THE 'PRIVILEGE"

The problem is that when the bets were made, the money went into the betting pools (i'm assuming that when you make a bet with an ADW, the money goes into the pools within a few minutes, usually less) This means that TVG manipulated the betting pools by cancelling tickets way after the fact.

This stuff impacts everyone, including people who have no affiliation to TVG or california racing. Once money is into the pools you are not allowed to take it out unless its teller error and the teller is cancelling a mistake ticket while the patron is still at the window.

Who the hell is TVG to be able to manipulate the betting pools like this?

Unless, the money never made it to the betting pools and TVG just 'holds' the bets until they decide to send the information to the pools.

The OPs friend made wagers in good faith. TVG confirmed that the bets were placed. After that, you are responsible to pay off the winning wagers.

If TVG has the legal ability to just not pay winning bets when they feel like it, than there is something seriously wrong with racing law and this needs to be looked into before it happens again.

Bettowin
04-24-2009, 02:00 AM
I disagree. This is a big deal. We can't have arrogant ADW spouting off about how great they are and they can't even place the bets for the customer AFTER CHARGING HIM 25 CENTS FOR THE 'PRIVILEGE"

The problem is that when the bets were made, the money went into the betting pools (i'm assuming that when you make a bet with an ADW, the money goes into the pools within a few minutes, usually less) This means that TVG manipulated the betting pools by cancelling tickets way after the fact.

This stuff impacts everyone, including people who have no affiliation to TVG or california racing. Once money is into the pools you are not allowed to take it out unless its teller error and the teller is cancelling a mistake ticket while the patron is still at the window.

Who the hell is TVG to be able to manipulate the betting pools like this?

Unless, the money never made it to the betting pools and TVG just 'holds' the bets until they decide to send the information to the pools.

The OPs friend made wagers in good faith. TVG confirmed that the bets were placed. After that, you are responsible to pay off the winning wagers.

If TVG has the legal ability to just not pay winning bets when they feel like it, than there is something seriously wrong with racing law and this needs to be looked into before it happens again.


Seriously, I would not use a site, person or track that charges you to make a bet. Admission and parking is enough but internet sites can't do that so it will only get worse.

You get what you pay for errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr might be paying for.

chickenhead
04-24-2009, 02:11 AM
these are two separate issues. If the title of the thread, and the nature of the bitch -- was:

TVG took advance bets on a track without a simulcast agreement and then had to refund them!

-- that is a slightly different focus. I think that is a valid topic for CHRB, and there quite likely will be/should be wide agreement as to why this should not be allowed. But not the focus on "what would have been winners need to get paid, regardless of what any contracts say, regardless of what happened. Do whatever you want with the losers".

It's a pretty simple rule clarification to fix the first, it's not realistic at all to talk about the second.

andymays
04-24-2009, 07:54 AM
This has been a fluid situation since it happened on Wednesday. The truth is that none of us knows exactly what happened. TVG never put out a statement with exactly what happened. Could it be that they didn't want the public to know exactly what happened because it might be embarrassing?

It's always best for any business to get in front of stuff like this.

The point of me doing this is that I almost never take someones word for something like this when it happens. You have to "shake the tree" sometimes to see what falls out!

This is the job of the media and of Racing Authorities. They seem to be doing their job now and because of that we may know the truth today.

Without the pressure we would have moved on and took another hit.

andymays
04-24-2009, 10:41 AM
From Ryan Conley (BloodHorse) sent to me this morning.

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the update. One of my Blood-Horse colleagues in California is covering the CHRB meeting live. Hopefully some on-the-record discussion will be forthcoming on the TVG issue, either there, or through my continuing efforts to speak with company officials.

Take care,

Ryan

Andymays says "good job Ryan and BloodHorse"!

Relwob Owner
04-24-2009, 10:49 AM
I disagree. This is a big deal. We can't have arrogant ADW spouting off about how great they are and they can't even place the bets for the customer AFTER CHARGING HIM 25 CENTS FOR THE 'PRIVILEGE"

The problem is that when the bets were made, the money went into the betting pools (i'm assuming that when you make a bet with an ADW, the money goes into the pools within a few minutes, usually less) This means that TVG manipulated the betting pools by cancelling tickets way after the fact.

This stuff impacts everyone, including people who have no affiliation to TVG or california racing. Once money is into the pools you are not allowed to take it out unless its teller error and the teller is cancelling a mistake ticket while the patron is still at the window.

Who the hell is TVG to be able to manipulate the betting pools like this?

Unless, the money never made it to the betting pools and TVG just 'holds' the bets until they decide to send the information to the pools.

The OPs friend made wagers in good faith. TVG confirmed that the bets were placed. After that, you are responsible to pay off the winning wagers.

If TVG has the legal ability to just not pay winning bets when they feel like it, than there is something seriously wrong with racing law and this needs to be looked into before it happens again.


Honestly, the more I read about the situation, the more I am inclined to change my stance....seems to me now that TVG was taking bets without having the simulcast agreement in place and that does seem like a big deal. I was treating the matter more like a server crash or something of that nature that is covered in an initial agreement with the company, rather than them saying they will place bets without an agreement in place, which now seems like the case....thanks for the continued info and we will all stay tuned.....

Relwob Owner
04-24-2009, 10:51 AM
This has been a fluid situation since it happened on Wednesday. The truth is that none of us knows exactly what happened. TVG never put out a statement with exactly what happened. Could it be that they didn't want the public to know exactly what happened because it might be embarrassing?

It's always best for any business to get in front of stuff like this.

The point of me doing this is that I almost never take someones word for something like this when it happens. You have to "shake the tree" sometimes to see what falls out!

This is the job of the media and of Racing Authorities. They seem to be doing their job now and because of that we may know the truth today.

Without the pressure we would have moved on and took another hit.



Well, Andy, you live and you learn...I admired your enthusiasm but questioned your cause here but I am starting to learn more and see that you may have something here......good thing about being a horseplayer is that it teaches me Im wrong a lot:)

andymays
04-24-2009, 10:53 AM
Well, Andy, you live and you learn...I admired your enthusiasm but questioned your cause here but I am starting to learn more and see that you may have something here......good thing about being a horseplayer is that it teaches me Im wrong a lot:)


I'm wrong plenty times as well.

For me anytime there is a gray area I always error on the side of the Horseplayer!

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 10:54 AM
From Ryan Conley (BloodHorse) sent to me this morning.

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the update. One of my Blood-Horse colleagues in California is covering the CHRB meeting live. Hopefully some on-the-record discussion will be forthcoming on the TVG issue, either there, or through my continuing efforts to speak with company officials.

Take care,

Ryan

Andymays says "good job Ryan and BloodHorse"!

DaHoss says, "Andymays takes the focus off the real issue, when he turns it into a look how great I am thread"

andymays
04-24-2009, 10:56 AM
DaHoss says, "Andymays takes the focus off the real issue, when he turns it into a look how great I am thread"


Can you explain what you mean?

I am very proud to stick up for a close friend of mine and correct an injustice.

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 11:01 AM
Can you explain what you mean?

I am very proud to stick up for a close friend of mine and correct an injustice.

yeah, basically I don't buy your whole act. You know what I mean.

andymays
04-24-2009, 11:04 AM
yeah, basically I don't buy your whole act. You know what I mean.


I could care less what you buy or don't buy. You don't know me or what I'm about. I have nothing to gain here but to feel good about sticking up for the "little guy" (I know that's a term you don't like right?)!

You seem to be really put out by this effort. Why does it upset you so much?

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 11:12 AM
I could care less what you buy or don't buy. You don't know me or what I'm about. I have nothing to gain here but to feel good about sticking up for the "little guy" (I know that's a term you don't like right?)!

You seem to be really put out by this effort. Why does it upset you so much?

I'm not upset at all. I just don't buy your act. That's it. Like I said, you know what I mean.

andymays
04-24-2009, 11:15 AM
I'm not upset at all. I just don't buy your act. That's it. Like I said, you know what I mean.


What is my act? I would love to hear you explain yourself. What is my agenda here?

You've been against getting my friend what he is due from TVG from the getgo.

What's up?

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 11:29 AM
What is my act? I would love to hear you explain yourself. What is my agenda here?

You've been against getting my friend what he is due from TVG from the getgo.

What's up?

I already explained enough. Stop playing dumb.

andymays
04-24-2009, 11:31 AM
I already explained enough. Stop playing dumb.


There are a lot of people following this post and like me I'm sure they would love to see you put your cards on the table.

You seem to be implying that I have something to hide. Everything you posted this morning implies that you have something to hide.

Lay your cards on the table!

andymays
04-24-2009, 11:37 AM
I'm not upset at all. I just don't buy your act. That's it. Like I said, you know what I mean.


Are you an employee of TVG? Just Curious.

takeout
04-24-2009, 11:40 AM
Great thread. :ThmbUp: Can’t wait 'til 2 o’clock.

andymays
04-24-2009, 11:41 AM
Great thread. :ThmbUp: Can’t wait 'til 2 o’clock.


The increase in takeout thing will be a heated issue today!

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 11:42 AM
There are a lot of people following this post and like me I'm sure they would love to see you put your cards on the table.

You seem to be implying that I have something to hide. Everything you posted this morning implies that you have something to hide.

Lay your cards on the table!

I'm not implying you have something to hide at all. I'm not hiding anything either. I think parts of your story don't add up and I think the whole thing is one big "Look at what Andymays did". Your earlier posts this morning kind of lean that way. That's it. I might be wrong, but I don't think so.

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 11:44 AM
Are you an employee of TVG? Just Curious.

No.

andymays
04-24-2009, 11:45 AM
I'm not implying you have something to hide at all. I'm not hiding anything either. I think parts of your story don't add up and I think the whole thing is one big "Look at what Andymays did". Your earlier posts this morning kind of lean that way. That's it. I might be wrong, but I don't think so.


I think most people would say "look what TVG did" but that's just me.

I'm proud of the effort that BloodHorse has made. I'm proud of the effort that Mike Marten from the CHRB has made. This guy drove to the TVG headquarters yesterday to stick up for a Horseplayer.

Why would I back off when these guys are stepping up?

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 11:51 AM
I think most people would say "look what TVG did" but that's just me.

I'm proud of the effort that BloodHorse has made. I'm proud of the effort that Mike Marten from the CHRB has made. This guy drove to the TVG headquarters yesterday to stick up for a Horseplayer.

Why would I back off when these guys are stepping up?

You said yourself that you think what TVG did was probably legally correct. I just think parts don't add up here and this whole thing is about you and not your friend. Like I said, I could be wrong, but i don't think so. be honest, is it at least a little about showing people here what you are doing?

andymays
04-24-2009, 11:58 AM
You said yourself that you think what TVG did was probably legally correct. I just think parts don't add up here and this whole thing is about you and not your friend. Like I said, I could be wrong, but i don't think so. be honest, is it at least a little about showing people here what you are doing?


I said probably. TVG should have came out with the whole story from the getgo and got in front of this. If they were in the right then they should have had one of their representatives or Attoryneys straighten this out.

And why would it matter if it was about me or my friend. What would I have to gain by saying it was about my friend. The ticket numbers are disclosed and TVG knows whos account it is. It is not mine!

I don't think parts of this add up either and that's why I'm doing what I'm doing.

Do you think the BloodHorse and Mike Marten from the CHRB would be wasting their time if there wasn't an issue here?

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 12:08 PM
I said probably. TVG should have came out with the whole story from the getgo and got in front of this. If they were in the right then they should have had one of their representatives or Attoryneys straighten this out.

And why would it matter if it was about me or my friend. What would I have to gain by saying it was about my friend. The ticket numbers are disclosed and TVG knows whos account it is. It is not mine!

I don't think parts of this add up either and that's why I'm doing what I'm doing.

Do you think the BloodHorse and Mike Marten from the CHRB would be wasting their time if there wasn't an issue here?

Of course there is an issue here. Who is denying that? An issue that happened to more than 1 person, which is why the CHRB is looking into it. I hope it gets worked out, so it doesn't happen again. I think everyone is trying to figure out exactly what happened, and how to avoid it in the future.

For the tenth time, what happened to your friend sucks. But I don't think he should get any money, other than what he was already refunded. other than that, we'll see what the CHRB says.

the little guy
04-24-2009, 12:11 PM
As the official " little guy " of this board, I just want to say that Andymays may think he speaks for the " little guy " but he does not speak for this " little guy. "

;)

andymays
04-24-2009, 12:15 PM
As the official " little guy " of this board, I just want to say that Andymays may think he speaks for the " little guy " but he does not speak for this " little guy. "

;)


I will have to change my "little guy" thing out of respect for you!

How about "Joe the Horseplayer"?

Bubba X
04-24-2009, 12:17 PM
I'd think California has regulations on tracks and ADWs with respect to offering wagering and accepting wagers. How could there not be?

Aside from whether or not people who would have had winning wagers should get paid, I'd think both Hollywood and TVG violated at least one regulation.

And since the CHRB is responsible for managing and enforcing regulation, they are at fault as well. If the CHRB is so lax as to allow this to go down to -- and beyond -- the last acceptable moment, then that should concern people as well.

BombsAway Bob
04-24-2009, 12:37 PM
Actually, what's unacceptable is that I just saw Patrick Biancone walking around the paddock of Hollywood Park...but that's neither here nor there...

Did you see his horse clipping heels, almost going down, & ZOOMING between horses to get up for the win?
It's almost like the horse was impervious to pain!

andymays
04-24-2009, 01:47 PM
From Mike Marten CHRB recieved this morning:

Even though this matter is not on the agenda for today’s CHRB meeting, it should come up under general business. If you want to listen, go to the CHRB Website and click the Webcast link. The meeting begins at 2 p.m. General Business should come up near the end f the meeting, probably around 5 p.m.



Andymays says "Thanks Mike"

Imriledup
04-24-2009, 02:28 PM
Dahoss,


Im not sure what beef you have with Andy, but he's really doing us all a favor. This has been with the problem with horse racing is that too many things get swept under the rug and most of them end up with the horseplayer getting the 'shaft'.

In our society, sticking up for the little guy is one of the most important and noble things to do. Too often, the big companies crap on the little guy and force him to beg for more. They crush you with dollars and cents.

If TVG can't pay off the winning bettors, they ought to get some kind of fine. I'm not even sure who will fine them. Does anyone know who TVG has to answer to? Can the CHRB fine them 50 grand or does the state goverment have to step in and get the FBI involved?

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 02:54 PM
Dahoss,


Im not sure what beef you have with Andy, but he's really doing us all a favor. This has been with the problem with horse racing is that too many things get swept under the rug and most of them end up with the horseplayer getting the 'shaft'.

In our society, sticking up for the little guy is one of the most important and noble things to do. Too often, the big companies crap on the little guy and force him to beg for more. They crush you with dollars and cents.

If TVG can't pay off the winning bettors, they ought to get some kind of fine. I'm not even sure who will fine them. Does anyone know who TVG has to answer to? Can the CHRB fine them 50 grand or does the state goverment have to step in and get the FBI involved?

I have no beef with Andy. I think I explained my take on this and not that it matters, but I am not the only one that thinks this is more about a chest thump than anything else.

Until we all know the facts, it's hard to take the whole thing at face value. I think Andy's story has many holes in it and am looking forward to the facts coming out. Then we can all discuss what should or shouldn't happen.

I would agree a fine is the bare minimum for what should happen. but i disagree winning bets should be paid. Unless of course you think the people who put in losing bets should also have to pay TVG back. That would be the fair thing, no?

Sorry if the whole little guy thing doesn't appeal to me. I think it's being used to incite pity, which it clearly is, when it really has nothing to do with this case. No one is crapping on anyone here. TVG probably did something wrong and hopefully they will be penalized for it. We are all cheated as bettors in one form or another. It sucks, but I think this has been one big grandstand by a guy screaming for attention. We'll see.

andymays
04-24-2009, 02:58 PM
I have no beef with Andy. I think I explained my take on this and not that it matters, but I am not the only one that thinks this is more about a chest thump than anything else.

Until we all know the facts, it's hard to take the whole thing at face value. I think Andy's story has many holes in it and am looking forward to the facts coming out. Then we can all discuss what should or shouldn't happen.

I would agree a fine is the bare minimum for what should happen. but i disagree winning bets should be paid. Unless of course you think the people who put in losing bets should also have to pay TVG back. That would be the fair thing, no?

Sorry if the whole little guy thing doesn't appeal to me. I think it's being used to incite pity, which it clearly is, when it really has nothing to do with this case. No one is crapping on anyone here. TVG probably did something wrong and hopefully they will be penalized for it. We are all cheated as bettors in one form or another. It sucks, but I think this has been one big grandstand by a guy screaming for attention. We'll see.


How about detailing the "holes in the story" so we can address them!

andymays
04-24-2009, 03:22 PM
Guess What?

TVG credited his account. He just let me know.

Thanks for everyones support!

Starting Balance $258.52
4/24/2009 1:58 PM Account Adjustment (+) $1,257.60
Wagers $0.00
Wager Fees $0.00
Subscription Fees $0.00
Wager Payouts $0.00
Ending Balance $1,516.12

PREVIOUS PAGE | NEXT PAGE

Subscription Information

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 03:28 PM
How about detailing the "holes in the story" so we can address them!

I thought you didn't care what I think? Guess not. I see they credited his account, that was very nice. Tell him to get a computer now, it's 2009.

takeout
04-24-2009, 03:44 PM
Guess What?

TVG credited his account. He just let me know. VERY interesting. And they didn’t even wait for the meeting. ;)

andymays
04-24-2009, 03:46 PM
It's a good PR move on their part and they showed a lot of class by making this right. I'm sure they could have fought it.

Hat's off to TVG and everyone that helped!

Dahoss9698
04-24-2009, 04:04 PM
I say hats off to you Andy.


DaHoss says "Andymays is my new hero!"

Relwob Owner
04-24-2009, 04:44 PM
It's a good PR move on their part and they showed a lot of class by making this right. I'm sure they could have fought it.



Hat's off to TVG and everyone that helped!



Well done Andy....proved me wrong.....I still have a ton of questions about the whole thing and this is the first-do you know if they collected on losing tickets?

andymays
04-24-2009, 04:47 PM
Well done Andy....proved me wrong.....I still have a ton of questions about the whole thing and this is the first-do you know if they collected on losing tickets?


Don't know but I doubt it. They probably let the people keep the money. They fell on their sword and you've got to give them a ton of credit.

TVG showed lots of Class!

Relwob Owner
04-24-2009, 04:51 PM
Don't know but I doubt it. They probably let the people keep the money. They fell on their sword and you've got to give them a ton of credit.

TVG showed lots of Class!


If anyone has any info on what happened to other winning/losing tickets, I would be very interested to hear it. What TVG appears to have done does seem like a classy move but I am wondering if they paid all winners and refunded all losers....if they did that, seems like they would have taken an enormous financial hit.....

Quagmire
04-24-2009, 04:54 PM
I wonder if TVG would have paid off under the previous owners.

The Judge
04-24-2009, 05:39 PM
TVG they did the right thing althougt its quite possible they weren't required to do so.

Now I want to ask another question "what is the legal relationship between AWD's companies and their clients . I don't know! Some think they are merely a conduit to the race track and you are bound by the contract. I am not so sure they could be in a fiduciary relationship with the bettor and therefore owe a higher duty to watch out for their customers welfare contract or no. A bank for instance must keep your money in an interest bearing account, same with lawyers who must keep a clients account and not mix up accounts. AWD's have money not wagered in trust.

My point is if there is a fiduciary relationship they must use extra care when dealing with there customers, its more than a contractual relationship.


Definition of Fiduciary

Black's Law Dictionary describes a fiduciary relationship as "one founded on trust or confidence reposed by one person in the integrity and fidelity of another." A fiduciary has a duty to act primarily for the client's benefit in matters connected with the undertaking and not for the fiduciary's own personal interest. Scrupulous good faith and candor are always required. Fiduciaries must always act in complete fairness and may not ever exert any influence or pressure, take selfish advantage, or deal with the client in such a way that it benefits themselves or prejudices the client. Business shrewdness, hard bargaining, and taking advantage of the forgetfulness or negligence of the client are totally prohibited by a fiduciary.

takeout
04-24-2009, 05:50 PM
I wonder if TVG would have paid off under the previous owners.I was just thinking about that too. Doubt it seriously. That was the outfit whose big idea was exclusives. They didn’t get it from day 1.

Betfair deserves credit for doing the right thing here. And they might want to think about calling TVG something else. (I would’ve changed the name as soon as I bought the place.) There’s still a lot of dumb attached to that old name.

PS: If Betfair really wants to pull a PR parlay now would be an excellent time to drop that absurd bet charge. They’ve already proven they’ve got class. Now would be a great time for them to drop some of the former ownership’s dumber policies.

BillW
04-24-2009, 05:55 PM
I don't believe Betfair has taken control as yet.

takeout
04-24-2009, 06:32 PM
I don't believe Betfair has taken control as yet.Now THAT is VERY interesting!!! When is Betfair supposed to take over?

BillW
04-24-2009, 06:34 PM
Now THAT is VERY interesting!!! When is Betfair supposed to take over?

The last I heard a week or so ago was that there were still i's to dot and t's to cross.

Dean, are you up on the latest status?

Quagmire
04-24-2009, 06:42 PM
I think the deal has been completed. I found this on Yahoo finance...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/TVG-Betfair-US-and-Keeneland-prnews-14801419.html?.v=1

About TVG

TVG, the official TV and Interactive Wagering partner of the National Thoroughbred Racing Association (NTRA) and a subsidiary of Betfair Group Ltd, the premier e-gaming betting community, is among the most widely distributed horseracing networks in the world. TVG viewers in certain areas can wager interactively on races via telephone, the Internet, TVG Mobile or Interactive Television by establishing a wagering account online at www.tvg.com or by telephone at 1-888-PLAY-TVG.

About Betfair Group Ltd

DeanT
04-24-2009, 06:43 PM
I am not sure they have their people in place with these type of decisions or not, but we can find out and pass it along.

takeout
04-24-2009, 09:48 PM
The truth is that none of us knows exactly what happened.Did this thing even get a mention at the CHRB meeting? Did I miss it or was it conspicuous by its absence???

Relwob Owner
04-24-2009, 10:30 PM
It's a good PR move on their part and they showed a lot of class by making this right. I'm sure they could have fought it.

Hat's off to TVG and everyone that helped!


I am really pleased with the outcome and am impressed by the persistence you showed....however, I am anxious for more answers....how much of a hit did TVG take? Maybe it wasnt that much but if it was, I wonder why they gave the money back so quickly, especially if they refunded the losers as well.....one thought that occurred to me is that maybe they have insurance for these types of situations.

Call me skeptical but I just find it hard to believe that they just decided to "do the right thing" and take that much of a financial hit....

andymays
04-24-2009, 10:33 PM
I am really pleased with the outcome and am impressed by the persistence you showed....however, I am anxious for more answers....how much of a hit did TVG take? Maybe it wasnt that much but if it was, I wonder why they gave the money back so quickly, especially if they refunded the losers as well.....one thought that occurred to me is that maybe they have insurance for these types of situations.

Call me skeptical but I just find it hard to believe that they just decided to "do the right thing" and take that much of a financial hit....

I think they had some exposure here because in my opinion they took bets without a contract and Hollywood should never have been on the betting menu.

Eric Sondheimer of the LA Times is supposed to do an article for Sunday. Maybe we'll find out more.

Relwob Owner
04-24-2009, 10:37 PM
I think they had some exposure here because in my opinion they took bets without a contract and Hollywood should never have been on the betting menu.

Eric Sondheimer of the LA Times is supposed to do an article for Sunday. Maybe we'll find out more.


Thanks for this and all the other info and effort....seems like what seemed complicated turned out to be kind of simple in that they took bets on a track with no agreement.....amazing....I have to imagine some heads are going to roll if that was the case....great job andymays

andymays
04-24-2009, 10:41 PM
Mike Marten of the CHRB and Dan Leibman of the BloodHorse really put the heat on.

I am fortunate to have established a relationship with these guys over the last couple of years. That helped quite a bit because they knew I wasn't some nut making stuff up!

Imriledup
04-24-2009, 10:51 PM
Just want to ask a question.

If Betfair was not the owner of TVG, do we think the 'old' TVG would have done the right thing?
Betfair has plenty of money and i'm thinking that them being behind TVG was a major factor in them 'doing the right thing'

startngate
04-25-2009, 12:34 AM
I think they had some exposure here because in my opinion they took bets without a contract and Hollywood should never have been on the betting menu.While you are correct, the races should not have been available to bet in the first place if they didn't have a contract, they didn't have any exposure. The wagers were refunded because all the ADW's in Oregon have in their respective operating plans that if pools are not able to be transmitted to the host track, then all wagers are refunded.

From TVG's Terms and Conditions (http://www.tvg.com/Open/Information.aspx?section=Terms%20and%20Conditions) ...

"All wagers are considered final when a confirmation is received from our totalizator service provider and your wager is commingled with the host pool. If for some reason we are unable to commingle your wager with the host pool, your wager will be refunded to your account."

Oregon allows the ADW's to reimburse customers as a customer service, which has occurred several times from pretty much all of the ADW's licensed there. ORC rules would have required them to refund everything first. They could then have compensated those that had winning tickets. Depending on how many winners there were, it certainly could have been a big hit to TVG.

Having said that, as far as any 'penalties' go, it is possible that the Oregon Racing Commission could have a hearing as to why the wagers were allowed to be taken in the first place without a contract. I also suppose that Hollywood could sue TVG for taking wagers without a contract, but since they now have an agreement, I doubt that will happen either.

For those who are praising TVG for 'doing the right thing' I'm not sure I agree. It seems like the only reason they did this was because some regulators and media folks got involved and for lack of a better term, 'forced their hand.' Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for the outcome for those players that had winning wagers, but am not sure that makes TVG heroes. There was enough bad publicity brewing that they really didn't have a choice from a PR standpoint. If they had admitted their mistake and paid on the winning wagers without any outside intervention then I'd say 'nicely done!'

takeout
04-27-2009, 02:15 PM
"Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."

-- Mark Twain

Stillriledup
11-25-2009, 05:22 PM
I say hats off to you Andy.


DaHoss says "Andymays is my new hero!"


Everyone Loves Andy.

stuball
11-26-2009, 11:31 AM
They probably decided the favorable pr is a good investment.
Lokk at all the free advertising they will get from this..
Just tack it on to the advertising budget..

Stuball

toetoe
11-26-2009, 04:10 PM
Actually, what's unacceptable is that I just saw Patrick Biancone walking around the paddock of Hollywood Park...but that's neither here nor there...


:lol:

Venomous, Sir --- just venomous ... :lol: .

toetoe
11-26-2009, 04:21 PM
Your enthusiasm is good but I think it is smartest to save time and energy for battles you can win and this isnt one of them....this comes under the "bad break" category, not a "screwed over" one...........



Hear, hear. Marvelously, put, 'Wobs. I also think andy is more concerned for his buddy than he would be for himself. :ThmbUp: .

rokitman
11-26-2009, 09:36 PM
why in anyone's right mind pay .25 to make a $2 wager? seems to me they have a very flawed business plan at TVG.

i can get you the video, the replays, and all the pp's, get you every single north american track, and lots of other tracks world wide and get you a good rebate to boot.
Yeah, and they have to nerve to keep incessantly yapping," At TVG, free means free!" and then say how other ADWs charge a percentage on deposits/ withdrawals, and they don't. It is truly absurd, and they really need to shut the fugg up.

Valuist
11-27-2009, 03:03 AM
Has anyone seen their new commercials? "At TVG, I know my money is safe".

Really? Safer than what?

Horseplayersbet.com
11-27-2009, 10:00 AM
Has anyone seen their new commercials? "At TVG, I know my money is safe".

Really? Safer than what?
Safer than with Bernie Madoff.

Canarsie
11-27-2009, 11:52 AM
Yeah, and they have to nerve to keep incessantly yapping," At TVG, free means free!" and then say how other ADWs charge a percentage on deposits/ withdrawals, and they don't. It is truly absurd, and they really need to shut the fugg up.


I'm not the biggest fan of TVG propaganda but everyone is fighting for approximately 50,000 active bettors which isn't a big pool. Look what Tracknet/CDI is doing to the mid Atlantic tracks that is even worse. XpressBet advertises in the DRF "They charge $228 per year. We don't".

HRTV could have bought TVG for 50 mil they didn't even make an offer. I really don't think anyone is cleaning up on people betting horses at this point.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2009/January/27/Betfair-acquires-TVG.aspx


As far as the insurance goes if more ADW's picked up on that it would be a good thing.


Look at what Verizon said about ATT look at the maps and coverage. ATT responds with "we cover 97% of the country" which is true. What they fail to tell you is that it's not 3G coverage and the odds of your call or even presentation being dropped are significantly higher. Why are they doing this? Because at this point the market is saturated (though MUCH higher) they are also fighting for the same numbers basically.

I live in NJ can't use any of the ADW's except 4njbets so my opinion is unbiased. I can't stand all the plugs but have gotten used to it can't blame them one bit. Plus it's scripted the hosts have to read them.

my_nameaintearl
11-28-2009, 02:04 PM
Safer than with Bernie Madoff.

lol Just ask the ny mets

mfactor
11-28-2009, 10:17 PM
What a great thread, congrats to Andy and friends for seeing this thing thru.

rokitman
11-28-2009, 10:56 PM
Guess What?

TVG credited his account. He just let me know.

Thanks for everyones support!

Starting Balance $258.52
4/24/2009 1:58 PM Account Adjustment (+) $1,257.60
Wagers $0.00
Wager Fees $0.00
Subscription Fees $0.00
Wager Payouts $0.00
Ending Balance $1,516.12

PREVIOUS PAGE | NEXT PAGE

Subscription Information
Congrats! :ThmbUp:

You got an extra 500 bucks I can borrow?

BIG RED
06-08-2011, 12:28 PM
Sorry to pop this back up, but had some time to read today. I usually hunt down some past threads I missed

Great thread :ThmbUp:

Elliott Sidewater
06-08-2011, 02:57 PM
I don't like this game TVG is playing, but knowing what I know about Murphy's Law, the bettor's transactions would have sailed through cyberspace like a speeding bullet had they been losing wagers. I hope the bettor sues successfully and I wouldn't be displeased if additional damages were awarded to him. No one should have to go through this. With a little bit of extra effort, TVG and other unreliable ADW companies might achieve what no one else has been able to do - to get people to go back to the track in person! :eek:

Elliott Sidewater
06-08-2011, 02:59 PM
Andy, he only got the money because you outed them. Good for you!