SA Handle Down 12%

[JeremyJet]

They blame the economy. But didn't Oaklawn and the Fair Grounds show an increase? What about Gulfstream?

Has a synthetic track ever reported an increase in handle since they've been around?

JeremyJet

[andymays]

They blame the economy. But didn't Oaklawn and the Fair Grounds show an increase? What about Gulfstream?

Has a synthetic track ever reported an increase in handle since they've been around?

JeremyJet


What would the handle have been without nearly 50% carryovers?

Santa Anita was by far my favorite track until they went synthetic. I believe that the Pro Ride surface is fraudulent and changes so drastically from day today and hour to hour that the carryovers became the norm.

In my opinion Santa Anita took the low road over the last couple of years constantly having their propaganda arm (HRTV) tell everyone how great the Pro Ride was. The great quote from Ron Charles was how "the favorite win percentage was about the same". In my opinion what he didn't say was the favorite win percentage was much lower in the pick 6 races that were intentionally carded to produce carryovers.

The next shoe to drop in this saga is that a couple of reports will come out "proving" that synthetic surfaces are much safer than dirt surfaces.

Training on synthetic surfaces is fine and maybe better for conditioning the Horse but racing on synthetics will continue to alienate Players who know better.

You can't judge the pace on a synthetic surface because the Jocks all have the brakes on early!

[JeremyJet]

Thanks for the re, Andy.

What's going on at Keeneland these days? I'm sure they'll say it's all peachy. This years Bluegrass field was probably the weakest i've ever seen for the race.

[andymays]

You know, I do realize that synthetics were installed with good intentions and I tried to go with the flow for the first several months. But after a while I and many others decided to vote with our dollars and stay away from synthetic surfaces and play racetracks with traditional surfaces.

What floors me are the people who have been around racing forever and insist that synthetic surfaces are better. Better for who?

[JeremyJet]

The horsemen were the ones who were praising the west coast surfaces. If that's true, what happened to the field sizes out there? They seemed to have trouble putting together 6 horse fields at SA. Where did all the horses go?

[andymays]

After a while you'll see a pattern. In the beginning of these meets most of the Horsemen and Jockeys will praise the surface. But when the meet ends you will hear all the bad stuff about it.

Santa Anita did have a mini revolt early in the meet when there were a rash of breakdowns with many Trainers walking out of the meetings.

Eric Sondheimer of the LA Times wrote an excellent article early in the year. Check it out.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sp-horse-santa-anita16-2009feb16,0,2205264.column

[Track Collector]

Based on an impression only, it seems that SA field sizes for many of the non-turf races are on the small side, which does not help handle issues. GG has these same issues too.

I'm also wagering very little at SA due to the synthetic surface.

[andymays]

In my opinion California racing has been mismanaged for several years now. The synthetic mandate and the propaganda blitz that followed backfired on them.

I am deeply dissapointed in the current situation here and have a lot of sympathy for the good people who work in the industry. I do not have any sympathy for the Leadership in California!

Click on the link in one of my previous posts up above to see an aricle by Eric Sondheimer of the LA Times. He wrote an excellent article early in the year. Check it out.

[toussaud]

here is my prediction. Hollywood is going to have a craptastic meet. And when Del Mar's meet is crap and tracks like Indiana Downs (Which I am head over heels in love with BTW) and calder are having great meets, we will a wide spred DEMAND for dirt back. because at the end of the day, it's a business, and they are pissing away money on this field experiment.

In 5 years I don't think there will be one polytrack surface in america. Keeneland is not going to let the bluegrass be the whograss for many more years

[andymays]

here is my prediction. Hollywood is going to have a craptastic meet. And when Del Mar's meet is crap and tracks like Indiana Downs (Which I am head over heels in love with BTW) and calder are having great meets, we will a wide spred DEMAND for dirt back. because at the end of the day, it's a business, and they are pissing away money on this field experiment.

In 5 years I don't think there will be one polytrack surface in america. Keeneland is not going to let the bluegrass be the whograss for many more years


Right On!

[JeremyJet]

here is my prediction. Hollywood is going to have a craptastic meet. And when Del Mar's meet is crap and tracks like Indiana Downs (Which I am head over heels in love with BTW) and calder are having great meets, we will a wide spred DEMAND for dirt back. because at the end of the day, it's a business, and they are pissing away money on this field experiment.

In 5 years I don't think there will be one polytrack surface in america. Keeneland is not going to let the bluegrass be the whograss for many more years

I see that Keeneland handle was down 19%!

Oaklawn was up 1.8%
Gulfstream up 3.7 %

JeremyJet

[Imriledup]

here is my prediction. Hollywood is going to have a craptastic meet. And when Del Mar's meet is crap and tracks like Indiana Downs (Which I am head over heels in love with BTW) and calder are having great meets, we will a wide spred DEMAND for dirt back. because at the end of the day, it's a business, and they are pissing away money on this field experiment.

In 5 years I don't think there will be one polytrack surface in america. Keeneland is not going to let the bluegrass be the whograss for many more yearsI love that, the whograss!!

I would be willing to pay for a billboad near Keeneland that says "bluegrass now the whograss. Get rid of synthetic"

[NJ Stinks]

I see that Keeneland handle was down 19%!

Oaklawn was up 1.8%
Gulfstream up 3.7 %

JeremyJet

The article below says Oaklawn handle was up 5.1%.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50204/oaklawn-reports-healthy-meet-numbers

(Just trying to help! :) )

[JeremyJet]

The article below says Oaklawn handle was up 5.1%.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50204/oaklawn-reports-healthy-meet-numbers

(Just trying to help! :) )

Oh, thanks for the correction. I don't recall where I got my figures.

JeremyJet

[andymays]

Does anyone have the figures for handle on dirt tracks vs. synthetic tracks.

These guys in California won't face reality when it comes to the trend in handle for the two surfaces.

[toussaud]

there comes a time when they HAVE to face reality. they won' thave a choice but to acknowledge what's going on.

[andymays]

there comes a time when they HAVE to face reality. they won' thave a choice but to acknowledge what's going on.


I listened to the entire meeting at Hollywood Park yesterday and I am shocked at how out of touch these guys are. You can listen to the archived meeting at the California Horse Racing Board website (I think) if you have the stomach for it.

The best analogy I could give is that Al Davis the owner of the Raiders was a really sharp owner for a long time and in my opinion, at some point, he lost touch with reality and his ego won't let him come back to reality!

[toussaud]

they might be out of touch, but owners aren't.

when owners want to run at bigger tracks with bigger purses or tracks where their aP indy out of a seeking the gold mare they paid 500k for can have a chance in hell at, they will listen.

[Bruddah]

I listened to the entire meeting at Hollywood Park yesterday and I am shocked at how out of touch these guys are. You can listen to the archived meeting at the California Horse Racing Board website (I think) if you have the stomach for it.

The best analogy I could give is that Al Davis the owner of the Raiders was a really sharp owner for a long time and in my opinion, at some point, he lost touch with reality and his ego won't let him come back to reality!

Here's my analogy. Running a race track is like running a restaurant. If you don't have a menu serving what your customers want, then sooner or later you don't have any customers.

Race tracks have been serving the betting customer what they want on the menu and not what their customers want. Yet they keep exploring ways to raise the prices on the menu. Some tracks have been worse than others and some areas of the country worse than others.

If they don't get the message with the declines at SA and Del Mar, there is no hope for California. Which, I might say doesn't bother me a darn bit.

[fmolf]

it was not an organized boycott.. but it ids working like one...in any business when an inferior product is offered to the smart savvy consumer, sales will generally suffer..look at the auto industry and how long it took them to get the message sent by the consumers...let them raise the takeout in cal. this will only make it worse for them!..keep up the good work informed and caring horseplayers!! :ThmbUp:
i have been trying to follow hawthorne now that tampa is closed anyone have any info/good angles for that track?

[toussaud]

I care more becuase I don't want the actual compaines to go out of business, but I could care less from a handicapping standpoint. the only track I even think about playing is SA and even then the fields are pathetically small so I normally don't

[fmolf]

I care more becuase I don't want the actual compaines to go out of business, but I could care less from a handicapping standpoint. the only track I even think about playing is SA and even then the fields are pathetically small so I normally don't
i do not see field sizes getting better with purses slashed at hollywood and trainers shipping to sunland and turf paradise among others

[Bettowin]

I listened to the entire meeting at Hollywood Park yesterday and I am shocked at how out of touch these guys are. You can listen to the archived meeting at the California Horse Racing Board website (I think) if you have the stomach for it.

The best analogy I could give is that Al Davis the owner of the Raiders was a really sharp owner for a long time and in my opinion, at some point, he lost touch with reality and his ego won't let him come back to reality!


Did you see Al's NFL draft picks today? If your analogy holds up there won't be racing on the west coast:)

[Bettowin]

I care more becuase I don't want the actual compaines to go out of business, but I could care less from a handicapping standpoint. the only track I even think about playing is SA and even then the fields are pathetically small so I normally don't


Why is SA the only track you even think about playing?

[toussaud]

Why is SA the only track you even think about playing?

out on the west coast. becuase I don't get TVG and I can't watch hollywood park and del mar live. and not only that, usually by the time 3-4 o'clock hits I'm about handicapped out for the day anyway. It will take a really good card or I have to have a really good horse on my mind to jump into santa anita. but 90% of the time I don't even bother as I said, i'm usually done by the time the west coast tracks hit.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Handle may bhe down, but last meet at all fake dirt tracks except Hollywood live attendance is up! Must be newbies who do not read PA forums!!LOL!!

[Burls]

i do not see field sizes getting better with purses slashed at hollywood and trainers shipping to sunland and turf paradise among othersIt's looks like a viscious vortex here. ... The small fields for this HOL meet will cause the handle to go down, which will cause the purses to go down, which will cause the fields to shrink, which will cause the handles to go down ...

[NYPlayer]

At Gulfstream, all sources handle was up 3.6, while on track handle was up 7.2%. This is amazing considering the recession. And while the parimutuel handle was very good, the largest gains were in their slots operation: up a stunning 11.1%!

I guess what they say is true, gambling is truly recession proof. Either that or this Stronach operation has learned to compete effectively and carve out some market share for itself.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/49504/gulfstream-all-sources-handle-up-36

[redeye007]

I was a devoted southern cal track handicapper but I've had it with the synthetic surfaces. trainers are manipulating the horses like puppets bouncing them back and forth from grass to the main obviously attempting to fool bettors and collect large mutuals. they can have it. At least you know what to expect on real dirt. :jump:

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Synthetic tracks are better than the dirt tracks. Dirt track racing is not very interesting as you watch some squib outrun the rest by 6 lengths with another 4 lengths back to the 3rd horse

The synthetic tracks do tend towards closer finishes

The Santa Anita track is a bit strange but I did think it has improved as time went by and they raced on it more. It deserves another 12 months before being trashed entirely.

Hollywood and Del Mar both race fine

Betting turnover down 12% suggests that bettors don't like the Santa Anita track and if that decline continues they will have to consider changing back to dirt (unless the declines are due to the recession). But going back to dirt would be a shame as the synthetics do provide better racing

Having said all that turf provides the best racing surface of all and as California provides plenty of turf racing I think it will always be one of the better places to follow in America

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

I don't have any more or less difficulty handicapping synth than I do dirt and I like the fact that closers get a fair shake on these surfaces. Blaming the handle declines at SA and Kee on the surface is foolish because these numbers are based on a comparision with last year when their surfaces were, of course, the synth. I'd like to see the numbers vis a vis the last year these tracks had dirt and then see the corresponding numbers for all the tracks that have remained dirt. Short fields? Cali had that problem long before synth. The biggest problem facing Ken and Cal is the inability to get slot machines; get that done things change in a hurry.

[toussaud]

I don't have any more or less difficulty handicapping synth than I do dirt and I like the fact that closers get a fair shake on these surfaces. Blaming the handle declines at SA and Kee on the surface is foolish because these numbers are based on a comparision with last year when their surfaces were, of course, the synth. I'd like to see the numbers vis a vis the last year these tracks had dirt and then see the corresponding numbers for all the tracks that have remained dirt. Short fields? Cali had that problem long before synth. The biggest problem facing Ken and Cal is the inability to get slot machines; get that done things change in a hurry.

a couple of things

first of all, you are confusing preception with reality. in other words, it doesn't matter if races are actually playing the same or even easier in realiity. all a bettor needs is the PERCEPTION of not being able to handicap a race to not play the track.

lastly, as i pointed out in another thread, a yeaer ago we weren't going though one of the worst economic slides in recent american history either. people still bet, but probably bet alot less and the ones who are betting are going to bet what they know and ulitmately feel more comfortable with.

and the field sizes aren't helping either.

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

If people are too foolish to realize that synth surfaces aren't that difficult that's their problem. You can't blame the surface for peoples' ignorance; sooner or later the economy will turn around and numbers will go back up. The biggest issue is slot money.