Do you root against Triple Crown bids if the horse isn't "GREAT"?

[Free House]

Wondering what everyones input is on this subject. I want to see a Triple Crown winner as much as anyone, but winning the TC is so rare, and hallowed ground that I dont want to see anyone win it, unless its an incredible horse, and will go down as one of the best ever. HEre is where I have stood in recent memory.

Silver Charm: I was torn on him. I loved Free House and didn't think Silver was head and shoulders above the others.
Real Quiet: How could you not root for him? That was a heartbreaker.
Charmasmatic: It was hard not to root for him. He was such a likeable horse, but would rather see the 21 year drought stay intact.
War Emblem: Although a nice looking horse, I would have hated it if he won.
Funny Cide: I'm going to get flamed for this, but I never thought he was as good as Empire Maker and didn't really care one way or another. I loved the horse and the story, but again I like how the drought continued.
Smarty Jones: I've never rooted for anyone more in my life. That was the worst day of my life as far as sports is concerned.
Big Brown: I was also there for this one. I really wanted him to win, but the race lost its luster for me because of how Dutrow acted after the 1st two legs.

[Bruddah]

I have only rooted against one horse in any Triple Crown race. That was Big Brown. Only because he would have won it against the worst crop of 3 yo's in almost 20 years. Not the horses fault. It's just that the horse would not be really deserving.

Should a horse be successful this year, they will have earned it. This may be the best crop of 3 yo's in almost 20 years. Amazingly strange how those things happen. ;)

[startngate]

As past history tells us even those horses that are 'incredible' are not guaranteed to get it done. Any horse that wins the Triple Crown is worthy of the feat, and I will always root for any horse with a chance (even if I hate the connections).

Not sure why you are torn on Silver Charm. A horse also doesn't have to be 'head and shoulders' above all the others to be worthy of the Triple Crown either ... look at Affirmed and Alydar.

[CBedo]

Personally, I always root for someone winning the first two legs of the triple crown.....so I can play against them in the Belmont!

[Saratoga_Mike]

Better question (imo): Do you root against potential Triple Crown winners if they're owned by IEAH?

[Relwob Owner]

Better question (imo): Do you root against potential Triple Crown winners if they're owned by IEAH?


you beat me to it....I have rooted for every Triple Crown hopeful I have ever seen....except for Big Brown....I admit that I was rooting very, very hard against him because of his owner and trainer(who I have since softened a bit on overall)....after all the other heartbreaks and good stories not getting it in previous years, I just couldnt stomach the thought of them winning---heck, Im human....

[Bubba X]

you beat me to it....I have rooted for every Triple Crown hopeful I have ever seen....except for Big Brown....I admit that I was rooting very, very hard against him because of his owner and trainer(who I have since softened a bit on overall)....after all the other heartbreaks and good stories not getting it in previous years, I just couldnt stomach the thought of them winning---heck, Im human....

You know, if today's media had existed in 1977, people might have hated Seattle Slew even more than they wound up disliking him:

-During the TC races, it was said that he did not beat much; Run Dusty Run, Sanhendrin, Iron Constirution, Cormorant were all thought fairly modest horses. So "bad" was this crop of 3 yo's, Slew was 1/2 in the Derby in a 15 horse field. A lot of people were now saying Seattle Slew beat nothing. A lot of people thought he did not deserve to be the only undefeated Triple Crown winner ever.

- After winning the Triple Crown, the owners decided to ship cross-country and run Seattle Slew back just 3 weeks after the Belmont in the Swaps. Now, on top of the "bad crop" talk, people talked about the owners and trainer being greedy. I remember a LOT of people were happy Slew lost that day. Slew did not just lose. He lost by 15 lengths to J. O. Tobin.

Remember, back then they ran the Wood Memorial - which Slew won - just two weeks before the Derby. So, the Swaps made it 5 races in ten weeks.

They had to stop on Seattle Slew after the Swaps due to soreness and minor injuries. The owners (fairly modest level people) and the trainer got fairly skewered. But nothing like it would have been like today.

In the end, the owners fired Seattle Slew's trainer, Billy Turner. Now, Turner had issues (who doesn't) but can you imagine how people would react today if the trainer of the only undefeated TC winner in history got fired after losing just one race he didn't want to run in anyway?

Slew was "great" while people were saying he beat junk in the TC. Fact is J.O. Tobin won an Eclipse and Run Dusty Run was pretty unfortunate not to come along a year or two earlier.

Anyway, I'm just saying the owner-trainer-horse theatrics of Big Brown are pretty tame to went went on with Seattle Slew.

The only unfortunate thing about it all really is that in horse racing, the key participants can't talk.

[Nets]

I root for/against teams in major sports due to years and years of seeing them play and developing my opinions from that. The Triple Crown is a new crop of horses each and every year, so I don't have those same built up feelings. I have only heard of most of the horses involved within the last several months. And I think that any horse that can win 3 Grade 1 races in a 5-week period must be considered "great" in one way or another. In this day and age we seem to knock greatness more easily due to the extreme amount of coverage that is available regarding the participants. I imagine that I would consider any Triple Crown winner as worthy and "great", especially with the passage of time.

[RichieP]

I root for/against teams in major sports due to years and years of seeing them play and developing my opinions from that. The Triple Crown is a new crop of horses each and every year, so I don't have those same built up feelings. I have only heard of most of the horses involved within the last several months. And I think that any horse that can win 3 Grade 1 races in a 5-week period must be considered "great" in one way or another. In this day and age we seem to knock greatness more easily due to the extreme amount of coverage that is available regarding the participants. I imagine that I would consider any Triple Crown winner as worthy and "great", especially with the passage of time.

Sharp post "Nets" :ThmbUp:

[Nets]

Thank you Richie.

[onefast99]

The one thing that everyone here is missing is that a potential triple crown winner will bring more people out to the track. Last year BB had a huge following up to and including the Belmont, and after that he ran in the Haskell which produced one of the biggest on track handles in a while. Also he ran in the Monmouth Stakes where again a huge crowd turned out to see him run.

[CyberBet]

I usually root against them. I want to see a truly great one win the TC.

Silver Charm: against

Real Quiet: against

Charmasmatic: kind of wanted him to win it. Not the truly great one though.

War Emblem: against

Funny Cide: absolutely against; Empire Maker should have been the one to break the drought. However the crop of 3yo's was diluted due to the still born foals in KY in 2000

Smarty Jones: Dead against. Another crop diluted by the still born foals in KY. Probably would have never made the Derby if not for all the blue bloods that died in 2001. 20% of the mares in foal had still borns in KY.

Big Brown: Would have liked to see him win it. Mostly to help the industry after the Barbaro incident. But hated Dutrow and IEAH.

[kenwoodallpromos]

The one thing that everyone here is missing is that a potential triple crown winner will bring more people out to the track. Last year BB had a huge following up to and including the Belmont, and after that he ran in the Haskell which produced one of the biggest on track handles in a while. Also he ran in the Monmouth Stakes where again a huge crowd turned out to see him run.
Ask your next door neighbor to rate 3 yr old crops year by year so you know what little the general public knows or cares about racing recent history. Lucky if they know the name of the current TC or KY Derby winner!
Maybe most old farts like ourselves want to know this stuff, but personally I want to bet against newbies who know as little about racing as possible, who just bet because they find reason to like the current champs, like Smarty Jones was; and because they see some longshots winning once in a while, like Giacomo. Take the good with the bad and tell non-bettors "it's all good"!! :cool:

[joanied]

Free House...you've gone ahead and opened up another good discussion:ThmbUp: ...
some are loosing the theme of the thread by equating a Triple Crown run with the handicapping side of racing... which isn't what I think it's meant to be...anyway...
it would be an interesting, although time consuming, task to go back and look at the 3 yr old crops of the 11 TC winners...and judge each TC winners competition in each leg of the TC series...if you look at it that way, we'd probably find most, if not all, of the TC winners were beating up a bunch of lesser quality colts...and the near miss colts would probably fall into that trap also...IMO, every TC winner was facing at least a few colts that in any other year, would have been champions (ie:Sham, Alydar). We keep missing out on a TC winner because of injuries, bad rides (ie; Kent D on Real Quiet, Bailey and Empire Maker in the Derby), bad trainer decisions (ie:riding Ronny what's his name in the Belmont on the Bid), circumstances such as weather ( ie: Funny Cide and the slop)...one of these years everything is going to come together and hoorah...a Triple Crown winner.

Every near miss in my life time has caused me much grief...and without going into each one...I can't say for sure which near miss was the hardest to deal with...probably Real Quiet, and IMO, he was as worthy of the Triple Crown as any other TC horse was, and came the closest:( of all to winning the damned thing!

Every year I have 2 Derby horses that end up on the top of my list by Derby Day...one I beleive is the horse to beat, one that is my 'sentimental' favorite...and this year is no exception. I can't recall ever rooting against a horse to win the TC because of it's connections...including BB last year...although, I was one of the few that wasn't a Dutrow basher...it wouldn't have bothered me at all had he turned into a trainer of a TC winner...but this year may be different for me...I cannot fathom Jeff Mullins in the history books as a TC trainer...love the horse, though, and have even begun to like Joe Talamo...so, for the first time ever...IF I Want Revenge wins the Derby...I won't root against him, but I will not really care one way or another...
as for the greatness of the horse that finally does take down the crown...in winning it, he becomes a great one...how can you deny a TC winner greatness?

Getting that TC would be amazing for horse racing in general...I can't imagine how many new fans we'd have today if BB had got it done last year...so, I hope that we have it this year...and of all the horses running, as for their connections...for me, it's between Baffert, Jones & Jerkins...if one of those 3 win the Derby, I beleive everyone, and I mean everyone, will be rooting for a TC winner...and to get back to the basis of Free House's topic... it would then make Pioneerof the Nile, Freisan Fire or Quality Road an "incredible" horse...a Triple Crown winner...incredible:jump:

[Free House]

Free House...you've gone ahead and opened up another good discussion:ThmbUp: ...
some are loosing the theme of the thread by equating a Triple Crown run with the handicapping side of racing... which isn't what I think it's meant to be...anyway...
it would be an interesting, although time consuming, task to go back and look at the 3 yr old crops of the 11 TC winners...and judge each TC winners competition in each leg of the TC series...if you look at it that way, we'd probably find most, if not all, of the TC winners were beating up a bunch of lesser quality colts...and the near miss colts would probably fall into that trap also...IMO, every TC winner was facing at least a few colts that in any other year, would have been champions (ie:Sham, Alydar). We keep missing out on a TC winner because of injuries, bad rides (ie; Kent D on Real Quiet, Bailey and Empire Maker in the Derby), bad trainer decisions (ie:riding Ronny what's his name in the Belmont on the Bid), circumstances such as weather ( ie: Funny Cide and the slop)...one of these years everything is going to come together and hoorah...a Triple Crown winner.

Every near miss in my life time has caused me much grief...and without going into each one...I can't say for sure which near miss was the hardest to deal with...probably Real Quiet, and IMO, he was as worthy of the Triple Crown as any other TC horse was, and came the closest:( of all to winning the damned thing!

Every year I have 2 Derby horses that end up on the top of my list by Derby Day...one I beleive is the horse to beat, one that is my 'sentimental' favorite...and this year is no exception. I can't recall ever rooting against a horse to win the TC because of it's connections...including BB last year...although, I was one of the few that wasn't a Dutrow basher...it wouldn't have bothered me at all had he turned into a trainer of a TC winner...but this year may be different for me...I cannot fathom Jeff Mullins in the history books as a TC trainer...love the horse, though, and have even begun to like Joe Talamo...so, for the first time ever...IF I Want Revenge wins the Derby...I won't root against him, but I will not really care one way or another...
as for the greatness of the horse that finally does take down the crown...in winning it, he becomes a great one...how can you deny a TC winner greatness?

Getting that TC would be amazing for horse racing in general...I can't imagine how many new fans we'd have today if BB had got it done last year...so, I hope that we have it this year...and of all the horses running, as for their connections...for me, it's between Baffert, Jones & Jerkins...if one of those 3 win the Derby, I beleive everyone, and I mean everyone, will be rooting for a TC winner...and to get back to the basis of Free House's topic... it would then make Pioneerof the Nile, Freisan Fire or Quality Road an "incredible" horse...a Triple Crown winner...incredible:jump:

Thanks Joanied. Its fun to find some people to talk horse racing with. None of my friends get it.

[Relwob Owner]

The one thing that everyone here is missing is that a potential triple crown winner will bring more people out to the track. Last year BB had a huge following up to and including the Belmont, and after that he ran in the Haskell which produced one of the biggest on track handles in a while. Also he ran in the Monmouth Stakes where again a huge crowd turned out to see him run.


I would agree with you, except for the fact that horses retire so early these days....I think due to this, it attracts people for particular days, but then the horses retire soon after and people forget....I think the whole "its a good story" or "A TC winner will help racing" thought is a bit overplayed....racing will have more long term success when its many problems are fixed and a long term marketing plan is developed and not constantly revamped with no success....getting the horse health/suspicious trainer problem solved wouldnt hurt either.....

[joanied]

I would agree with you, except for the fact that horses retire so early these days....I think due to this, it attracts people for particular days, but then the horses retire soon after and people forget....I think the whole "its a good story" or "A TC winner will help racing" thought is a bit overplayed....racing will have more long term success when its many problems are fixed and a long term marketing plan is developed and not constantly revamped with no success....getting the horse health/suspicious trainer problem solved wouldnt hurt either.....

Agreed and a good point:ThmbUp:
Maybe, maybe , maybe...IF we get that illusive TC winner this year, the connections will aspire to owners like Allan Paulson and Jess Jackson and keep the horse in training as a 4 yr old...maybe, maybe, maybe:)

[Relwob Owner]

Agreed and a good point:ThmbUp:
Maybe, maybe , maybe...IF we get that illusive TC winner this year, the connections will aspire to owners like Allan Paulson and Jess Jackson and keep the horse in training as a 4 yr old...maybe, maybe, maybe:)


Man, I hope so....maybe with the breeding side of things slowing down, sales wise, people will keep em on the track longer!

[joanied]

Thanks Joanied. Its fun to find some people to talk horse racing with. None of my friends get it.

Free House...no need for thanks:blush: because I, like you, have no one here in the wilds of Wyoming that gives a real s**t about racing.... my husband will watch the big races with me, and he'll listen to me talk about the latest news....but really dosen't care about it one way or another...I have lots of friends that are horse people...just not into TB racing. I rubbed horses at Belmont...way back when...it really is in my blood...and my heart...
Man, when I found this forum I was delighted:jump: and coming here is like my daily 'fix'...I love it and all the folks here:)

[joanied]

Man, I hope so....maybe with the breeding side of things slowing down, sales wise, people will keep em on the track longer!

That's a thought... maybe we need to get owners of top horses to a hypnotis or brain wash them:D ...some damned thing to get them to keep 'em in training longer...wishful thinking, I suppose:faint:

[kenwoodallpromos]

Man, I hope so....maybe with the breeding side of things slowing down, sales wise, people will keep em on the track longer!
TBreds Courtesy of Jockey Club- in 1993 there were 5800+ sires- now 2800+. Also sire seasons went from average 30 to 60, and are constantly being concentrated in the big breeding states.
same size foal crop, starters, field size; reduced starts per horse and total races. In other words, less sires breeding horses to fill races due to more injury vacations.
And you expect horse with cajones to keep racing like Commentator?

[joanied]

TBreds Courtesy of Jockey Club- in 1993 there were 5800+ sires- now 2800+. Also sire seasons went from average 30 to 60, and are constantly being concentrated in the big breeding states.
same size foal crop, starters, field size; reduced starts per horse and total races. In other words, less sires breeding horses to fill races due to more injury vacations.
And you expect horse with cajones to keep racing like Commentator?

Nooooooo....

I think we made it clear...we're talking maybe, hope and wishful thinking:)

[kenwoodallpromos]

That's a thought... maybe we need to get owners of top horses to a hypnotis or brain wash them:D ...some damned thing to get them to keep 'em in training longer...wishful thinking, I suppose:faint:
Betting asided, I root for every 2nd leg winner to win the Belmont! Based on their records lately, that is wishful thinking!LOL!!

[DrunkenHorseplayer]

Silver Charm - rooted against because Touch Gold should've won the Preakness.
Real Quiet - wanted him to win.
Charismatic - rooted against because I've never liked Lukas.
War Emblem - rooted against because he was a two-hit wonder.
Funny Cide - rooted against because Empire Maker, if healthy, would've won the Derby.
Smarty Jones - agree that his loss was the worst day in sports, especially given that he lost because two jocks didn't care about winning. Clearly the best horse of the bunch.

[joanied]

Betting asided, I root for every 2nd leg winner to win the Belmont! Based on their records lately, that is wishful thinking!LOL!!

There ya go:ThmbUp:

[onefast99]

Ask your next door neighbor to rate 3 yr old crops year by year so you know what little the general public knows or cares about racing recent history. Lucky if they know the name of the current TC or KY Derby winner!
Maybe most old farts like ourselves want to know this stuff, but personally I want to bet against newbies who know as little about racing as possible, who just bet because they find reason to like the current champs, like Smarty Jones was; and because they see some longshots winning once in a while, like Giacomo. Take the good with the bad and tell non-bettors "it's all good"!! :cool:
When BB ran in the Haskell people were very tuned in to this horse and his accomplishments thus far. The IEAH side show meant nothing to the people looking to see BB's return to the track a winning one. The Monmouth Stakes again was a big day for those following BB, it was a tune up for the Breeders Cup and had it not been for a career ending injury to BB we may have been able to witness a head to head confrontation with Curlin at Santa Anita. BB gave us all a thrill and that alone gets people interested in the sport. I am sure if one of this years crop of 3yo's gets the first two legs of the triple crown most will be cheering to see that particular horse become part of racing history.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

The Fred Stone "Legends of the Triple Crown" print that adorns my office wall remains current as a result.

I have no problem with a great horse making it obsolete, but to be honest, I haven't seen that horse since maybe Alysheba, whom Jack Van Berg and Chris McCarron both contend might have gotten it done had McCarron followed JVB's instructions.

[PaceAdvantage]

You know, if today's media had existed in 1977, people might have hated Seattle Slew even more than they wound up disliking him:

-During the TC races, it was said that he did not beat much; Run Dusty Run, Sanhendrin, Iron Constirution, Cormorant were all thought fairly modest horses. So "bad" was this crop of 3 yo's, Slew was 1/2 in the Derby in a 15 horse field. A lot of people were now saying Seattle Slew beat nothing. A lot of people thought he did not deserve to be the only undefeated Triple Crown winner ever.

- After winning the Triple Crown, the owners decided to ship cross-country and run Seattle Slew back just 3 weeks after the Belmont in the Swaps. Now, on top of the "bad crop" talk, people talked about the owners and trainer being greedy. I remember a LOT of people were happy Slew lost that day. Slew did not just lose. He lost by 15 lengths to J. O. Tobin.

Remember, back then they ran the Wood Memorial - which Slew won - just two weeks before the Derby. So, the Swaps made it 5 races in ten weeks.

They had to stop on Seattle Slew after the Swaps due to soreness and minor injuries. The owners (fairly modest level people) and the trainer got fairly skewered. But nothing like it would have been like today.

In the end, the owners fired Seattle Slew's trainer, Billy Turner. Now, Turner had issues (who doesn't) but can you imagine how people would react today if the trainer of the only undefeated TC winner in history got fired after losing just one race he didn't want to run in anyway?

Slew was "great" while people were saying he beat junk in the TC. Fact is J.O. Tobin won an Eclipse and Run Dusty Run was pretty unfortunate not to come along a year or two earlier.

Anyway, I'm just saying the owner-trainer-horse theatrics of Big Brown are pretty tame to went went on with Seattle Slew.

The only unfortunate thing about it all really is that in horse racing, the key participants can't talk.I hate when people reproduce long full quotes like this, but in this case, what you said can't be repeated enough when it comes to perspective...thanks for this!

[PaceAdvantage]

Silver Charm: against

Real Quiet: against

Charmasmatic: kind of wanted him to win it. Not the truly great one though.

War Emblem: against

Funny Cide: absolutely against; Empire Maker should have been the one to break the drought. However the crop of 3yo's was diluted due to the still born foals in KY in 2000

Smarty Jones: Dead against. Another crop diluted by the still born foals in KY. Probably would have never made the Derby if not for all the blue bloods that died in 2001. 20% of the mares in foal had still borns in KY.

Big Brown: Would have liked to see him win it. Mostly to help the industry after the Barbaro incident. But hated Dutrow and IEAH.Real Quiet I could understand...Funny Cide even...but Silver Charm and Smarty Jones I just don't get...they were "deserving" in my book...

[Relwob Owner]

Silver Charm - rooted against because Touch Gold should've won the Preakness.
Real Quiet - wanted him to win.
Charismatic - rooted against because I've never liked Lukas.
War Emblem - rooted against because he was a two-hit wonder.
Funny Cide - rooted against because Empire Maker, if healthy, would've won the Derby.
Smarty Jones - agree that his loss was the worst day in sports, especially given that he lost because two jocks didn't care about winning. Clearly the best horse of the bunch.


Question on one of them....did Empire Maker have a health issue going into the Derby? I dont remember anything about it after he beat Funny Cide in the Wood....I do remember coming away from the Derby feeling like Bailey thought he had the race won all the way around and was surprised Funny Cide came back at him like he did....I may be just spacing and forgetting the EM issue...