What's going on at ChuckyTown?

[Nacumi]

Ray Paulick has a headline indicating 7 jockeys at Charlestown have been suspended and the clerk of scales has had his license revoked...
Anyone know anymore?

[ddog]

Ray Paulick has a headline indicating 7 jockeys at Charlestown have been suspended and the clerk of scales has had his license revoked...
Anyone know anymore?



Easter vacation?

that place is fun to play, but they are not all on the straight path, what with those sharp corners and all.



:lol:

[Marshall Bennett]

Maybe they all stood on the scale at the same time and broke it .:lol:

[Relwob Owner]

Ray Paulick has a headline indicating 7 jockeys at Charlestown have been suspended and the clerk of scales has had his license revoked...
Anyone know anymore?



Not sure....I was there last night and the place is an absolute circus....


One of the racing officials was asked why the races run so far behind all the time and he said if they ran on time, people would get shut out so running late helps the betting pools....no, Im not kidding

[Nacumi]

Not sure....I was there last night and the place is an absolute circus....
One of the racing officials was asked why the races run so far behind all the time and he said if they ran on time, people would get shut out so running late helps the betting pools....no, Im not kidding


Good grief. Never seen so many angles in one place, including the track turns and now, the scale, apparently. :D

[Relwob Owner]

Good grief. Never seen so many angles in one place, including the track turns and now, the scale, apparently. :D


It is amazing....the more you learn about how things operate up there, the more amazed you get....

[awesomehandicapper]

9 jocks involved. Just a weight thing. Same as what happened in New York
few years ago. 30 days suspension and $1,000 fine. Good time for a decent new jock to come here. Week before the $1,000,000 race. But at least they are on the ball and doing something. The lateness of the races is due to the State vet and his infamous scratches but he was taken away in an ambulance
Wednesday evening for some unknown reason. They do not deliberately
make races late for betting purposes. CT also has to stop these jocks from taking off in post parade. That causes big delays. Crackdowns on drug trainers and very rigid control of the Jock's room . Good things happening for trainers, owners and betters. Exciting joint.

[Nacumi]

Refresh my memory: NY had jocks that were weighing in lighter than they actually were? Same thing here?

[Mineshaft]

Clerk of scales probably falsifying weights no big deal it happens everywhere.

[JWBurnie]

This past weekend at CT...my horse was to carry 121. Two races before his post it is announced my rider was 1 pound over and would carry 122. Thats odd, this very same rider weighed in at 121 in the 2nd race, how can that be? Think I won't be speaking to the stewards.

[Relwob Owner]

9 jocks involved. Just a weight thing. Same as what happened in New York
few years ago. 30 days suspension and $1,000 fine. Good time for a decent new jock to come here. Week before the $1,000,000 race. But at least they are on the ball and doing something. The lateness of the races is due to the State vet and his infamous scratches but he was taken away in an ambulance
Wednesday evening for some unknown reason. They do not deliberately
make races late for betting purposes. CT also has to stop these jocks from taking off in post parade. That causes big delays. Crackdowns on drug trainers and very rigid control of the Jock's room . Good things happening for trainers, owners and betters. Exciting joint.

I never said they ran the races late on purpose, just that the official tried to convince people that running late was a benefit because it prevented people from getting shutout and increased pools....and yes, he said it....


they cant stop the jocks from taking off and shouldnt....the jocks take off because they are on sore horses and the vet wont scratch them....then, the Vet will scratch others at random........


In my opinion your optimism is misplaced at Ctown...are you optimistic that the guy writing the races has no rhyme or reason for anything he writes? Are you optimistic that races dont end until 11:30 each night? Are you optimistic because trainers help write the races up there and write races that fit their current stock? Are you optimistic that horses limping badly are allowed to run?

That being said, the place is like a second home to me and I will always put up with the BS

[Relwob Owner]

This past weekend at CT...my horse was to carry 121. Two races before his post it is announced my rider was 1 pound over and would carry 122. Thats odd, this very same rider weighed in at 121 in the 2nd race, how can that be? Think I won't be speaking to the stewards.


Same thing with me last night, except I believe there was a five pound difference

[dave the horseman]

Long time coming, probably the first of many things to happen.

[JWBurnie]

Long time coming, probably the first of many things to happen.

You are exactly right...it has been a long time coming. I hope they turn this into a spring cleaning and get rid of a lot of trash.

[Relwob Owner]

This past weekend at CT...my horse was to carry 121. Two races before his post it is announced my rider was 1 pound over and would carry 122. Thats odd, this very same rider weighed in at 121 in the 2nd race, how can that be? Think I won't be speaking to the stewards.


As far as the Stewards go, they are incredible.....about a year ago, I ran a horse at a mile and an eighth.....there was a gate malfunction and one horse got about a ten length head start...he went wire to wire and won and they paid out the purses like normal....I saw the stewards and it wasnt pleasant. I asked why they didnt just pay each horse equally--his response(not kidding) was "It was a mile and an 8th race so your horse had plenty of time to make up the ground in the race..."....Optimism????

[dave the horseman]

A perfect example of people being in an ivory tower, wow, amazing to hear.

[Relwob Owner]

A perfect example of people being in an ivory tower, wow, amazing to hear.


What was even more amazing is the intimidation they exude....very, very strange experience!


But hecak, Commentator is coming to run next week so I am pumped!

[Saratoga_Mike]

I never said they ran the races late on purpose, just that the official tried to convince people that running late was a benefit because it prevented people from getting shutout and increased pools....and yes, he said it....


they cant stop the jocks from taking off and shouldnt....the jocks take off because they are on sore horses and the vet wont scratch them....then, the Vet will scratch others at random........


In my opinion your optimism is misplaced at Ctown...are you optimistic that the guy writing the races has no rhyme or reason for anything he writes? Are you optimistic that races dont end until 11:30 each night? Are you optimistic because trainers help write the races up there and write races that fit their current stock? Are you optimistic that horses limping badly are allowed to run?

That being said, the place is like a second home to me and I will always put up with the BS

1) When you refer to trainers who help write races, are you talking about extras being put up on the overnights or in the actual condition book?

2) Without naming any trainers, could you please give an example of an extra or condition in the book that was tailor-made for a certain horse (presumbly to the detriment of others)?

Thanks.

[Brogan]

Writing a race for someone is not all that uncommon. When you follow a particular track, there is generally a pattern in the condition book...for instance the exact same conditions may come back every 10 days, or every two weeks...something along those lines. It's usually in the extra races where the creativity comes in.

Follow along and look for conditions that don't fit the normal pattern and more then likely, its one that's been written to fit a particular horse. Of course, it takes more than just the horse its written for to make the race go, so even when its proposed specifically to benefit one horse, the condition often fits several horses.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Writing a race for someone is not all that uncommon. When you follow a particular track, there is generally a pattern in the condition book...for instance the exact same conditions may come back every 10 days, or every two weeks...something along those lines. It's usually in the extra races where the creativity comes in.

Follow along and look for conditions that don't fit the normal pattern and more then likely, its one that's been written to fit a particular horse. Of course, it takes more than just the horse its written for to make the race go, so even when its proposed specifically to benefit one horse, the condition often fits several horses.

Exactly right.

[discodog]

I'm shocked it is still named Charlestown, how did Bob Byrd let that happen.

[Spectacular Sid]

Smile, clerk of scales...you're on Candid Camera!

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/gotcha-camera-catches-charles-town-clerk-jockeys-fudging/

[PaceAdvantage]

For the record, this is NOT what happened in NY. Those accused in the NY case were exonerated if I remember correctly.

In the NY case, it was the failure of the investigators to understand the rules of racing, again, if I remember correctly. If I don't remember correctly, I'm sure someone will reprimand me shortly.

[Relwob Owner]

1) When you refer to trainers who help write races, are you talking about extras being put up on the overnights or in the actual condition book?

2) Without naming any trainers, could you please give an example of an extra or condition in the book that was tailor-made for a certain horse (presumbly to the detriment of others)?

Thanks.

My apologies....I wasnt specific....the trainers writing races comment was geared towards noticing when certain trainers have certain types of stock, the races seem to be geared to those horses and when those trainers dont have those horses, the races tend to be written in a different fashion. I dont have any direct proof specifically of this buy if you follow the races, you will see that ceratin trainers seem to always get races that fit their horses perfectly.....I can say that when certain trainers are stocked with WVA breds, certain races seem to get written and when they arent, things seem to change.

The second thing I am not positive about and I am looking into it....but I am pretty sure that each year, two trainers sit in on the committee that writes the races. If so, seeing the conflict of interest isnt too hard---I will do some more research on this and re-post and if anyone can confirm/refute it, please do so.

Lastly, the condition book is a mess in my opinion. There is little consistency to it from book to book from my vantage point. Many 4K claimers and then many races written that obviously attract shippers and eat away at the local horsemen, jockeys, etc. and also have small fields.....I think tracks should write races specific to the horses on the grounds, not horses from other tracks.

I have started claiming some horses at Laurel and they have a very consistent book and that has made me see the inconsistency of Ctown....


Sorry to complain abt CT so much...it is mainly because I lhave been going there forever and it has so much potential that doesnt get realized....

[Relwob Owner]

Smile, clerk of scales...you're on Candid Camera!

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/gotcha-camera-catches-charles-town-clerk-jockeys-fudging/


I may be wrong but I believe Luis Perez rode Researcher last time, who will be in the 1 million dollar race this weekend....not sure if he was scheduled to ride but that could be an expensive fine for those guys....

[foregoforever]

For the record, this is NOT what happened in NY. Those accused in the NY case were exonerated if I remember correctly.

In the NY case, it was the failure of the investigators to understand the rules of racing, again, if I remember correctly. If I don't remember correctly, I'm sure someone will reprimand me shortly.

Yes, charges were dismissed.

If the folks in West Virginia need some help investigating this matter, I imagine that Client Number 9 is available to help. For a price, of course.

[JWBurnie]

I have started claiming some horses at Laurel and they have a very consistent book and that has made me see the inconsistency of Ctown....



Relwob, be careful with Laurel's book...it does appear to be consistent from book to book, however many races do not go. We entered a SA30Kn2L (started for c30K and never won 2) 4 months in a row, and it never went. The last two books they wrote the same condition w/ a small, but more restictive tweak....now, the horse to be elible must have broke his Mdn for a claiming price of $30K or less, and never won two races.

How the hell is that race going to go now, if it didn't go before?

[Brogan]

My apologies....I wasnt specific....the trainers writing races comment was geared towards noticing when certain trainers have certain types of stock, the races seem to be geared to those horses and when those trainers dont have those horses, the races tend to be written in a different fashion. I dont have any direct proof specifically of this buy if you follow the races, you will see that ceratin trainers seem to always get races that fit their horses perfectly.....I can say that when certain trainers are stocked with WVA breds, certain races seem to get written and when they arent, things seem to change.

Part of writing the condition book is tailoring it towards the horses on the grounds. There's little point in writing races that won't fill.

[Relwob Owner]

Part of writing the condition book is tailoring it towards the horses on the grounds. There's little point in writing races that won't fill.


Correct and that is a challenge up there....instead of writing based on the horses on the grounds that would fill ten, they write higher end races that always attract shippers, and 6 horse fields and then race day, 2 scratch and you are left with a 4 horse field.....

[Relwob Owner]

1) When you refer to trainers who help write races, are you talking about extras being put up on the overnights or in the actual condition book?

2) Without naming any trainers, could you please give an example of an extra or condition in the book that was tailor-made for a certain horse (presumbly to the detriment of others)?

Thanks.


I got the scoop today....it is my understanding that trainers sit on a committee that looks at the condition book that is drawn up 2 weeks before it comes out---the purpose of this is to have trainers give feedback on it and if it makes sense-in an ideal world, the trainers would use it as an opportunity to use their knowledge to tweak it and make it better for all the horsemen. However, many up there feel that the trainers on the committee use it as a means to further their own cause and their use their influence to get races that fit their particular stock at the time.

I am not sure if this is how it goes at other tracks but when it comes to feedback about the whole book, it seems like a huge conflict of interest.


As far as examples go, I cant site any with out naming trainers.....like many things in Horse Racing, it is just an accumulatioon of circumstances that look strange and make you feel like something isnt right.

[Relwob Owner]

Relwob, be careful with Laurel's book...it does appear to be consistent from book to book, however many races do not go. We entered a SA30Kn2L (started for c30K and never won 2) 4 months in a row, and it never went. The last two books they wrote the same condition w/ a small, but more restictive tweak....now, the horse to be elible must have broke his Mdn for a claiming price of $30K or less, and never won two races.

How the hell is that race going to go now, if it didn't go before?

Thanks for the heads up...just starting to learn the book up there and that helps

[Tom]

Real simple fix - have the scales face the stands so EVERYONE can see the weights. Hook up a digital data collector to the scale so that every weight is captures and logged in. This is NOT expensive technology, under $500 worst case.

What is it about racing that they cannot figure out anything?

[The Judge]

The scale needle never stops they hop on and hop off, the needle is stil bouncing. I was impressed I said wow that steward is good he knows their weight and the needle is still moving.

I was at Bay Meadows the day they caught Ricky Frazier one of my farvorite jockeys at the time. He hopped on and off the same as the other jockeys, almost, I remember thinking wow that was a little quick even by jock standards they called him back and made him stand there until the needle stopped. Report bellow:

"But he left after a bizarre incident in the $250,000 Final Fourteen Championship -- the culmination of a series of races around the nation -- on Oct. 14, 1990, at Bay Meadows. Frazier won the race aboard Allijeba by a nose over Tex's Zing, but his mount was disqualified because he weighed out with his saddle at 123 pounds -- three fewer than the horse was assigned to carry.

The Bay Meadows board of stewards suspended Frazier for six months, but he went to court to fight the decision, and the penalty was reduced to probation.

Frazier still has no idea how the discrepancy happened, because he weighed in at the correct 126 pounds before the race"

The six month penalty was reduced to probation I think but Ricky was gone for many a year from the bay area.

[takeout]

This guy is lucky they didn’t want to get him for taking bribes. Same goes for the jocks for giving them. I’m ASSuming he wasn’t doing this just to be nice. :rolleyes:

[Steve 'StatMan']

I remember that Final Fourteen weight incident, thanks for jogging my memory, I was a novice fan back then (1990) - hadn't learned to handicap yet.

So many issues regarding jockey weights. IIRC they all have to weigh in and are checked for their required amounts, but the weigh in aftewards ends up being different - and that too IIRC caused the erroneous controversy in NY (thanks to A.G. Spitzer). The initial, official weigh in does not include items that end up adding to their 'real weight', such as the safety vest (at least 2-3 pounds, not standard equipment back in 1990) perhaps their helmets, cold weather clothing for warmth, maybe some other things - perhaps someone else knows more. The riders also come back with dirt & mud on them that they didn't have before the race. Goggles, don't know if they include those. They do include the saddle.

Unless some sizeable weights are missing from the saddle, I imagine now days it is pretty hard for a rider to come back after the race under the 'assigned weight'. How much over they come back afterwards, I don't know if that is recorded or if it matters - although that is the one we see on those quick weightouts - so I imagine at least slightly over the assinged weight coming back with all the extras, once the scale slows its wiggle and above their assigned weight, they're probably cleared.

[Relwob Owner]

Real simple fix - have the scales face the stands so EVERYONE can see the weights. Hook up a digital data collector to the scale so that every weight is captures and logged in. This is NOT expensive technology, under $500 worst case.

What is it about racing that they cannot figure out anything?


That is $500 more than they will spend up there....main issue is that the track owners dont care about racing at all....it is just a means to keep slots in there....they will never put a dime into the racing up there for the most part.

The weights deal is the tip of the iceberg up there...if any sort of audit was done on the whole racing situation, it is my opinion that the weight situation would be very, very small potatoes.....I also find it hard to believe that there were no bribes involved...what other motivation would the guy have to put his job and license on the line?

[takeout]

That is $500 more than they will spend up there....main issue is that the track owners dont care about racing at all....it is just a means to keep slots in there....they will never put a dime into the racing up there for the most part.Sooo true. Ever take a good look at the “new” tote board, and all the stuff that ISN’T on it? Amazing.

[Relwob Owner]

Sooo true. Ever take a good look at the “new” tote board, and all the stuff that ISN’T on it? Amazing.



Good point......My personal favorite was a few years back when they put the new paddock outside and made it so you go downhill coming in....even when they do decide to spend money, they usually mess up.....I would pay to see the looks on the faces of Commentator's connections when they roll into town this week:)

[titans1127]

As far as the Stewards go, they are incredible.....about a year ago, I ran a horse at a mile and an eighth.....there was a gate malfunction and one horse got about a ten length head start...he went wire to wire and won and they paid out the purses like normal....I saw the stewards and it wasnt pleasant. I asked why they didnt just pay each horse equally--his response(not kidding) was "It was a mile and an 8th race so your horse had plenty of time to make up the ground in the race..."....Optimism????Wow thats real messed up. Any idea when this happened and what track? I'd love to find the replay for it.

[Relwob Owner]

Wow thats real messed up. Any idea when this happened and what track? I'd love to find the replay for it.



Charlestown.....I can try and look it up...my horse was named Badge of Honor and it was last year at some point, i believe...could have been late 07, though...I think it was a 4K claimer

[JWBurnie]

I remember that race well...a friend of mine had the winning horse. I hate to hear you came up on the short end of the stick. I thought it was crap then, and think it was crap now. Sorry. A replay worth watching...should have been a no-contest & refund.
Race was 1/6/2007, CT, Race 2

[takeout]

even when they do decide to spend money, they usually mess upThey did the same thing with the paddock that they did with the tote board, built a new one and made it worse. A lot worse.

Their “new” tote board does NOT have:

1. The amount bet on each horse
2. An “official” light
3. An “objection” light
4. An “inquiry” sign
5. Something to indicate a dead heat
6. The ability for the numbers to blink off and on while waiting on rulings.
7. The ability to show 5 figure payouts
8. The ability to show superfecta payouts, pick 3’s, 4’s etc., all of which were being run before the new tote board was put up(!)

What am I leaving out???

If memory serves, the OLD tote had the first 5 on the list.

The thing that bugs me the most is the way the numbers are not lined up. I always think I’m looking at the odds on the 10 and it’s the 9. It’s almost like they’re trying to screw me up. It’s obvious they’re not in the racing business. At least not insofar as the bettor is concerned. :bang:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Good point......My personal favorite was a few years back when they put the new paddock outside and made it so you go downhill coming in....even when they do decide to spend money, they usually mess up.....I would pay to see the looks on the faces of Commentator's connections when they roll into town this week:)

Did they manage to attract Commentator for the big race?

[Relwob Owner]

Did they manage to attract Commentator for the big race?


Yep, I am almost positive...Zito said something to the effect of "We cant pass up a Million Dollar Race"....a ringing CT endoresement!:):)


They are running ads for him running every night....many other good horses were nominated as well but dont know who is going to go

[Relwob Owner]

I remember that race well...a friend of mine had the winning horse. I hate to hear you came up on the short end of the stick. I thought it was crap then, and think it was crap now. Sorry. A replay worth watching...should have been a no-contest & refund.
Race was 1/6/2007, CT, Race 2


Thanks for the info!!! My memory is getting worse...didnt realize it was so long ago....thanks for finding it-might watch it again. I wish I was on this forum when it did and could show more other people.....glad your friend was the one who won, though

[Relwob Owner]

They did the same thing with the paddock that they did with the tote board, built a new one and made it worse. A lot worse.

Their “new” tote board does NOT have:

1. The amount bet on each horse
2. An “official” light
3. An “objection” light
4. An “inquiry” sign
5. Something to indicate a dead heat
6. The ability for the numbers to blink off and on while waiting on rulings.
7. The ability to show 5 figure payouts
8. The ability to show superfecta payouts, pick 3’s, 4’s etc., all of which were being run before the new tote board was put up(!)

What am I leaving out???

If memory serves, the OLD tote had the first 5 on the list.

The thing that bugs me the most is the way the numbers are not lined up. I always think I’m looking at the odds on the 10 and it’s the 9. It’s almost like they’re trying to screw me up. It’s obvious they’re not in the racing business. At least not insofar as the bettor is concerned. :bang:


Very, very solid list

[Saratoga_Mike]

Yep, I am almost positive...Zito said something to the effect of "We cant pass up a Million Dollar Race"....a ringing CT endoresement!:):)


They are running ads for him running every night....many other good horses were nominated as well but dont know who is going to go

Thanks for the info. It should be a great night of racing.

[takeout]

I remember that race well...a friend of mine had the winning horse. I hate to hear you came up on the short end of the stick. I thought it was crap then, and think it was crap now. Sorry. A replay worth watching...should have been a no-contest & refund.
Race was 1/6/2007, CT, Race 2I remember that race too. They declared it a non-wagering event and returned all wagers.

Paid out the purse like normal? That’s amazing. I wouldn’t have thought that in a million years. I just assumed they paid everyone equal shares in a case like that. Wow.

That’s got lawsuit written all over it. Guess the owners thought it wasn’t worth the trouble. ?? (Anyone familiar with the A Huevo fiasco probably figured why bother.)

Man that place is something. Can’t wait to see what transpires before, during and after the big race that’s coming up. A purse of any more than 50K up there seems to bring a whole lot of weirdness with it.

[Relwob Owner]

Thanks for the info. It should be a great night of racing.


I am really excited....the jocks who got suspended may have lost some serious dough considering they could have taken some leftovers if the shippers' jocks didnt come with them

[Saratoga_Mike]

I remember that race well...a friend of mine had the winning horse. I hate to hear you came up on the short end of the stick. I thought it was crap then, and think it was crap now. Sorry. A replay worth watching...should have been a no-contest & refund.
Race was 1/6/2007, CT, Race 2

The race was declared a nonwagering event and all monies wagered were refunded.

[proximity]

What am I leaving out???



the jockey "hold" :rolleyes: light ?

[Relwob Owner]

The race was declared a nonwagering event and all monies wagered were refunded.

Right, but the purses paid to the owners were paid out as normal....

[Relwob Owner]

I remember that race too. They declared it a non-wagering event and returned all wagers.

Paid out the purse like normal? That’s amazing. I wouldn’t have thought that in a million years. I just assumed they paid everyone equal shares in a case like that. Wow.

That’s got lawsuit written all over it. Guess the owners thought it wasn’t worth the trouble. ?? (Anyone familiar with the A Huevo fiasco probably figured why bother.)

Man that place is something. Can’t wait to see what transpires before, during and after the big race that’s coming up. A purse of any more than 50K up there seems to bring a whole lot of weirdness with it.


Yep, I owned one and it was a normal payout...the Stewards looked like they were ready to fight....protesting anything up there just isnt worth it.....wait til the Vet makes Commentator a late scratch:)

[takeout]

wait til the Vet makes Commentator a late scratch:) :lol: :lol: :lol:

[takeout]

That reminded me of when the girl was still the vet and she scratched that David Wells horse and he refused to take it off the track. :lol:

[Relwob Owner]

That reminded me of when the girl was still the vet and she scratched that David Wells horse and he refused to take it off the track. :lol:


Oh, yes.....the great thing abt CT is that you see things you never see anywhere else!

[takeout]

the jockey "hold" :rolleyes: light ?Yep. I forgot that one. And the list continues...

[Track Collector]

the jockey "hold" :rolleyes: light ?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[awesomehandicapper]

Amazing how much insight is available on this thread about CT.
My friend has been a trainer here since 1972 so he has seen it all.
April 18th will be an exciting day. This did happen in NY and all charges were dropped. Bazea (the great jock, probably spelled his name wrong) was involved. He was clerk of scales, He ended up in CT with his wife because of it and is the nicest man you can ever meet. Probably one of the great jocks of all times. He sat in our box many times and discussed how he was so wrongly accused and as facts turned out he was right. All the jocks with weight problems involved in this CT situation so after 30 days up and fines paid it will be back to normal for them .
Maybe it will be a wake up call for the stewards and some trainers and things will change. Rumor is that the State Vet is gone for a long time. Remember the saying "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
There needs to be an instant appeals committee to be able to overule some of these crazy Vet scratchs, starter problems, Steward rulings, obvious trainer drug abuses that are obvious to all except the people in charge.
CT is not alone in this. The condition book is deliberately geared toward out of town trainers because Racing Sec wants locals to upgrade. Can't understand how Laurel allows their trainers to use their track as a training
track for CT. A preference for horses stabled on grounds is the only thing that will keep many many local trainers afloat and alive in the future. Keep all these things in mind when the next HBPA election is held.
Fingers starting to hurt. Bye :bang:

[Relwob Owner]

Amazing how much insight is available on this thread about CT.
My friend has been a trainer here since 1972 so he has seen it all.
April 18th will be an exciting day. This did happen in NY and all charges were dropped. Bazea (the great jock, probably spelled his name wrong) was involved. He was clerk of scales, He ended up in CT with his wife because of it and is the nicest man you can ever meet. Probably one of the great jocks of all times. He sat in our box many times and discussed how he was so wrongly accused and as facts turned out he was right. All the jocks with weight problems involved in this CT situation so after 30 days up and fines paid it will be back to normal for them .
Maybe it will be a wake up call for the stewards and some trainers and things will change. Rumor is that the State Vet is gone for a long time. Remember the saying "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
There needs to be an instant appeals committee to be able to overule some of these crazy Vet scratchs, starter problems, Steward rulings, obvious trainer drug abuses that are obvious to all except the people in charge.
CT is not alone in this. The condition book is deliberately geared toward out of town trainers because Racing Sec wants locals to upgrade. Can't understand how Laurel allows their trainers to use their track as a training
track for CT. A preference for horses stabled on grounds is the only thing that will keep many many local trainers afloat and alive in the future. Keep all these things in mind when the next HBPA election is held.
Fingers starting to hurt. Bye :bang:

All good points....The racing secretary tells all the trainers to upgrade horses and how that is the new philosophy....then he needs to explain why there are so many races for 4K havent won in 6 months or havent won 2 in six months....answer is that he has a philosophy that he preaches but then the trainers end up influencing what races are written....when certain trainers have certain types of horses, the condition book reflects it....


I, too am glad to see the CT coverage...I have thought about running for the HBPA but am not sure I could stand doing it

[takeout]

the jockey "hold" :rolleyes: light ?Wow. Can't believe that went right by me! :ThmbUp: :D

[takeout]

I have thought about running for the HBPA but am not sure I could stand doing itI hear that! Good luck if you decide to run.
(If you get elected remember not to take the green machine home with you. ;))

[proximity]

(If you get elected remember not to take the green machine home with you. ;))

:lol: :lol: lmao, you beat me to the punch on that one takeout!! although i was thinking more along the lines that maybe relwob could, you know, lend that out to his fellow pace handicappers (for a nominal fee of course) and maybe dip into the coffers for a "loan" ;) from time to time when our bankrolls aren't so healthy!!

[Relwob Owner]

:lol: :lol: lmao, you beat me to the punch on that one takeout!! although i was thinking more along the lines that maybe relwob could, you know, lend that out to his fellow pace handicappers (for a nominal fee of course) and maybe dip into the coffers for a "loan" ;) from time to time when our bankrolls aren't so healthy!!

Ha!!!! Listen, if I run and get elected, I am taking all Pacers with me and it will be perks galore!:)

[SimplePleasures]

I'm shocked it is still named Charlestown, how did Bob Byrd let that happen.

By the way it is CHARLES TOWN as in TWO words.

[Relwob Owner]

By the way it is CHARLES TOWN as in TWO words.


I heard the jocks had a stay on their suspension and that it really screwed things up because the trainers had already committed for this weekend.....anyone else hear this? I know Tony Maragh is riding tonight....

[juanepstein]

gerald almovador

catch a replay of his ride on the :1: in race 8.

whats he doing on the turn heading for home?

[Saratoga_Mike]

I heard the jocks had a stay on their suspension and that it really screwed things up because the trainers had already committed for this weekend.....anyone else hear this? I know Tony Maragh is riding tonight....

You're correct. According to the print version of today's DRF, a WV circuit court judge issued a restraining order preventing CT from enforcing the suspensions. It's probably online, too, but I haven't looked.

[SimplePleasures]

Charles Town | Posted 4/16/2009, 6:48 pm
Judge denies Charles Town ban
By Matt Hegarty
A West Virginia circuit court judge on Thursday issued a restraining order barring Charles Town Races from enforcing the suspension of seven riders who have been accused by the track of falsifying their riding weights.

Judge L. D. Engor of Kanawha County Circuit Court issued the order at the request of the Jockeys' Guild, the national organization that represents jockeys. Engor's order said that the notices sent to the jockeys about their rights to a hearing were "constitutionally insufficient" and that the track had violated the riders' due-process rights.

Last week, stewards at Charles Town issued 30-day suspensions to seven riders after alleging that they had conspired with the clerk of scales to report weights that were lower than the weights they actually carried. The clerk of scales was suspended indefinitely.

ast week, stewards at Charles Town issued 30-day suspensions each to Alexis Rios-Conde, Tony Maragh, Anthony Mawing, Luis Perez, Larry Reynolds, Jesus Sanchez, and Dale Whittaker after alleging that the riders had conspired with the clerk of scales to report weights that were lower than the weights they actually carried. The clerk of scales was suspended indefinitely.

Charles Towns stewards had said that they relied on videotape evidence to determine that the weights were misreported. The jockeys have appealed the ruling.

The motion filed by the Guild seeking the temporary restraining order characterized the hearing procedure used by the stewards as unfair. Courts frequently issue temporary restraining order against racetracks that issued suspensions because the penalties typically prohibit a rider from earning any money if barred from the racetrack grounds while appealing the suspension.

[SimplePleasures]

BTW I hear that Dr. Dibbern has the night off. I will be there with my son but not until about 8 PM.

[proximity]

BTW I hear that Dr. Dibbern has the night off. I will be there with my son but not until about 8 PM.

8 pm? the free tote bags will be long gone by then....:(

[Nevermore19]

For what its worth, Danny Wright is the State steward at CT. He's not some power crazed tyrant. He's a a class act and former jockey of 20+ years. He puts a lot of time and work into Charles Town and cares about getting it right.

Being a steward is a pretty thankless job(hey, not many people love cops :p ). They have a LOT on their plate trying to keep that track running smoothly. Plus, everybody makes mistakes. At the end of the day the stewards enforce what commission mandates. I'm not sure which steward was quoted making that comment about the card running late, I have my opinions about the other two stewards but I'm not on here to kick dirt, I'll just say that without Danny keeping things even keeled, things would be a whole lot worse. Things can be taken out of context pretty easily and disgruntled horsemen/bettors aren't exactly without bias :D

Everybody has opinions but I think I'll step up for a man I know personally and seems to be getting an unfair shake here. If I'm going to grab my torch and pitch fork in regards to improving CT - going after a man who is doing his best to keep things straight and safe is pretty far down on my list.

The vet situation... I think you guys got it pretty good.

This thread is about several riders and the clerk of scales breaking the rules and getting pretty appropriate suspensions in my opinion. There are plenty of other threads here where you can rant about how you feel you were wronged by CT in a completely unrelated matter.

[SimplePleasures]

8 pm? the free tote bags will be long gone by then....:(

Had hockey practice until 7 so you do what you have to do and I wasn't going to fight that crowd for a tote bag. We walked in and walked up to the box sat down and enjoyed the evening. Great night for this exacta player and the double to Researcher at $88 was what the Doctor ordered. Cashed all but two races.

[SimplePleasures]

For what its worth, Danny Wright is the State steward at CT. He's not some power crazed tyrant. He's a a class act and former jockey of 20+ years. He puts a lot of time and work into Charles Town and cares about getting it right.

Being a steward is a pretty thankless job(hey, not many people love cops :p ). They have a LOT on their plate trying to keep that track running smoothly. Plus, everybody makes mistakes. At the end of the day the stewards enforce what commission mandates. I'm not sure which steward was quoted making that comment about the card running late, I have my opinions about the other two stewards but I'm not on here to kick dirt, I'll just say that without Danny keeping things even keeled, things would be a whole lot worse. Things can be taken out of context pretty easily and disgruntled horsemen/bettors aren't exactly without bias :D

Everybody has opinions but I think I'll step up for a man I know personally and seems to be getting an unfair shake here. If I'm going to grab my torch and pitch fork in regards to improving CT - going after a man who is doing his best to keep things straight and safe is pretty far down on my list.

The vet situation... I think you guys got it pretty good.

This thread is about several riders and the clerk of scales breaking the rules and getting pretty appropriate suspensions in my opinion. There are plenty of other threads here where you can rant about how you feel you were wronged by CT in a completely unrelated matter.

I totally agree with you and everyone in the Stewards office care and love what they do. You will see Danny walking through the grandstand talking to people all of the time. He is always available to talk and that is nice to see.

As for Dr. Dibbern I personally have nothing against him either and think he's a really nice guy. As a matter of fact he saved the life of a cat of ours years ago that had a stroke. He was working last night but wasn't carrying the pen as one friend called it :)

[Saratoga_Mike]

How crowded was CT last night?

While there's always room for improvement, I think most owners/trainers who complain about CT aren't winning races. If they'd place their horses properly, they'd win more races.

Putting aside last night, where the handle was up for obvious reasons, does anyone know if the CT simulcast signal has been expanded recently? It seems like the handle over the past few weeks has experienced a notable uptick.

Delaware Park opens next Saturday. Workers were out in force yesterday, putting the finishing touches on everything. Next to Saratoga, I think Delaware has one of the nicest paddocks on the east coast. With the large ramp in purses at the PHA over the past yr, DEL may have an even more difficult time attracting entrants. It's a shame.

[JWBurnie]

How crowded was CT last night?

While there's always room for improvement, I think most owners/trainers who complain about CT aren't winning races. If they'd place their horses properly, they'd win more races.

Putting aside last night, where the handle was up for obvious reasons, does anyone know if the CT simulcast signal has been expanded recently? It seems like the handle over the past few weeks has experienced a notable uptick.

Delaware Park opens next Saturday. Workers were out in force yesterday, putting the finishing touches on everything. Next to Saratoga, I think Delaware has one of the nicest paddocks on the east coast. With the large ramp in purses at the PHA over the past yr, DEL may have an even more difficult time attracting entrants. It's a shame.

I heard the attendance broke the track record, right around 5,000. It was great to see that big a crowd at CT, however the management did little to cater to the crowd. Too few windows, huge lines and they removed all benches off the apron. All and all a great night, and no breakdowns. :ThmbUp:

[takeout]

They must’ve meant handle. The largest attendance I’m aware of was the night of the Leonard/Hearns fight. Around 21,000, I think.

[takeout]

Putting aside last night, where the handle was up for obvious reasons, does anyone know if the CT simulcast signal has been expanded recently? It seems like the handle over the past few weeks has experienced a notable uptick. I’ve been wondering about that too. Maybe being on "TV" now is having some effect. ??

[takeout]

[snip]
Courts frequently issue temporary restraining order against racetracks that issued suspensions because the penalties typically prohibit a rider from earning any money if barred from the racetrack grounds while appealing the suspension.
[snip]

If the jocks can keep on riding how come the clerk can’t keep on clerking? What am I missing here? :confused:

[Saratoga_Mike]

I’ve been wondering about that too. Maybe being on "TV" now is having some effect. ??

Sorry, what do you mean by being on "TV?" Is CT now on TVG or something? Thanks.

[Relwob Owner]

How crowded was CT last night?

While there's always room for improvement, I think most owners/trainers who complain about CT aren't winning races. If they'd place their horses properly, they'd win more races.

Putting aside last night, where the handle was up for obvious reasons, does anyone know if the CT simulcast signal has been expanded recently? It seems like the handle over the past few weeks has experienced a notable uptick.

Delaware Park opens next Saturday. Workers were out in force yesterday, putting the finishing touches on everything. Next to Saratoga, I think Delaware has one of the nicest paddocks on the east coast. With the large ramp in purses at the PHA over the past yr, DEL may have an even more difficult time attracting entrants. It's a shame.

Real crowded...I am the first to point out the problems they face up there t but i thought the night was terrific....there was a huge roar when researcher made his move from all the people pulling for Runco...a great night

the uptick in handle may be from it now being on HRTV, I believe.....

[Relwob Owner]

I heard the attendance broke the track record, right around 5,000. It was great to see that big a crowd at CT, however the management did little to cater to the crowd. Too few windows, huge lines and they removed all benches off the apron. All and all a great night, and no breakdowns. :ThmbUp:


Good point about handling the crowd....an average of 20-25 people per line for any sort of food or beverage.....the staff that was working werent what I would call "go getters" or "people persons" and there were lot of frustrated people in the lines..as JWB said, a great night overall,though

[Saratoga_Mike]

Good point about handling the crowd....an average of 20-25 people per line for any sort of food or beverage.....the staff that was working werent what I would call "go getters" or "people persons" and there were lot of frustrated people in the lines..as JWB said, a great night overall,though

Every track seems to have this problem - they don't staff up properly for crowds on the concessions front. It happens every yr on KY Derby day at Delaware Park (still an outstanding facility--the Rickmans have and continue to invest millions into the racing side of the operation). These are very casual fans. They either have a great experience and return, or they have a lousy experience - waiting 15 minutes for a hot dog - and don't return until next yr's Derby.

That's great news on HRTV. I've always thought the CT signal was under-marketed. If you go to Vegas, at least this was the case a few yrs ago, you can almost always watch and wager on MNR, but usually not on CT. There's no question that CT is a better overall product than MNR. Maybe someone is out marketing the CT signal more aggressively now. Of course it's possible there were impediments to the signal's expansion in the past. In any case, it looks like the handle's been up 20%+ over the past few weeks on certain nights. Someone's doing a terrific job.

[Relwob Owner]

Every track seems to have this problem - they don't staff up properly for crowds on the concessions front. It happens every yr on KY Derby day at Delaware Park (still an outstanding facility--the Rickmans have and continue to invest millions into the racing side of the operation). These are very casual fans. They either have a great experience and return, or they have a lousy experience - waiting 15 minutes for a hot dog - and don't return until next yr's Derby.

That's great news on HRTV. I've always thought the CT signal was under-marketed. If you go to Vegas, at least this was the case a few yrs ago, you can almost always watch and wager on MNR, but usually not on CT. There's no question that CT is a better overall product than MNR. Maybe someone is out marketing the CT signal more aggressively now. Of course it's possible there were impediments to the signal's expansion in the past. In any case, it looks like the handle's been up 20%+ over the past few weeks on certain nights. Someone's doing a terrific job.



They really are....I dont know who is responsible for it but it is great....I was at the track and didnt get to see the HRTV coverage but I heard it was solid....on normal nights, one thing that I have heard is that HRTV doesnt care the races live always because of the gate delays...not sure if that is true because I dont get HRTV(stupid Directv) but it would make some sense.


I have heard that TVG and HRTV wouldnt consider CT in the past in large part due to the fact that they never hit their projected post times but dont know if that is accurate info...


All in all, very good stuff lately!

[Saratoga_Mike]

They really are....I dont know who is responsible for it but it is great....I was at the track and didnt get to see the HRTV coverage but I heard it was solid....on normal nights, one thing that I have heard is that HRTV doesnt care the races live always because of the gate delays...not sure if that is true because I dont get HRTV(stupid Directv) but it would make some sense.


I have heard that TVG and HRTV wouldnt consider CT in the past in large part due to the fact that they never hit their projected post times but dont know if that is accurate info...


All in all, very good stuff lately!

What happened to Jeff Gilleas?

[Relwob Owner]

What happened to Jeff Gilleas?


I hear they forced him out(no clue if that is true or what is meant by it) but he is definitely not the handicapper anymore as far as I know and he is now Luis Perez's agent, I believe.....I liked Jeff's work and he is a super nice guy.....The kid doing the handicapping is Paul Espinoza Jr, whose family has trained horses and also worked for the track(his dad) for some time....he made a reference to the fact that he was 19 years old but I cant imagine that is true...if anyone else knows, please confirm or deny...


On another note, David Flores looked like he was on Mars during his ride on Magnum....I think he should have ridden earlier to get used to the track because I am a fan of his and was stunned---wide, wide and wider...looked lost....someone also posted that Prado looked out of sorts and man, did he ever....I think he got there late because he missed his first mount

[Saratoga_Mike]

I hear they forced him out(no clue if that is true or what is meant by it) but he is definitely not the handicapper anymore as far as I know and he is now Luis Perez's agent, I believe.....I liked Jeff's work and he is a super nice guy.....The kid doing the handicapping is Paul Espinoza Jr, whose family has trained horses and also worked for the track(his dad) for some time....he made a reference to the fact that he was 19 years old but I cant imagine that is true...if anyone else knows, please confirm or deny...


On another note, David Flores looked like he was on Mars during his ride on Magnum....I think he should have ridden earlier to get used to the track because I am a fan of his and was stunned---wide, wide and wider...looked lost....someone also posted that Prado looked out of sorts and man, did he ever....I think he got there late because he missed his first mount

Thanks for the info on Jeff. I always enjoyed his commentary. I know Paul co-hosted with Jeff about a year ago, and I think Jeff indicated Paul was still in college at that point. I suspect he's 21 or 22. He definitely knows his racing history.

I thought John Velasquez could have kept Commentator a little tighter around the turns, so Flores wasn't the only with bull-ring riding issues. Of course Commentator wasn't going to win the race anyway. I really like that old horse; I was at Saratoga to watch him win the Whitney last yr.

[Relwob Owner]

Thanks for the info on Jeff. I always enjoyed his commentary. I know Paul co-hosted with Jeff about a year ago, and I think Jeff indicated Paul was still in college at that point. I suspect he's 21 or 22. He definitely knows his racing history.

I thought John Velasquez could have kept Commentator a little tighter around the turns, so Flores wasn't the only with bull-ring riding issues. Of course Commentator wasn't going to win the race anyway. I really like that old horse; I was at Saratoga to watch him win the Whitney last yr.


I agree...Commentator is a very cool horse....his owner apparently did a really classy interview that was well pointed towards Ctown and why they came....all the out of town jocks seemed a little rattled...Carmouche knows CT pretty well and certainly showed it.

I really hope they keep up the momentum up there

[takeout]

I don’t know why Gilleas got canned but it doesn’t smell right. I heard it was corporate cost cutting but I would have to know a lot more about it before I swallowed that one whole. :rolleyes:

[dave the horseman]

Gilleas had posted in his press release on the c-town website some New Year's wishes

Jeff Gilleas: Publicity Manager/T V handicapper/Player’s Club host. “Spend more time with my family, tame the bulge, enjoy life, get out of debt, learn something new, help others and volunteer. From a racing perspective, especially on the simulcast horizon I would love to see the elimination of the time consuming ‘Jockey’s hold’ and curtail the number of extremely frustrating revenue deflating late scratches


Just a guess, probably didnt go over too well with the big wigs.

[proximity]

it sounds like it was a magical evening and i admit being a bit jealous of those who were able to attend. (whether they got a free tote bag or not) however it is now time for penn gaming to stop carding million dollar races and start doing something for the horseplayers who consistently support them night in and night out. zillions of dollars in slots revenue and still to this day 0.6% rebates on players choice cards? you can get 8+% if you call your bets into premier, but show up to the tracks consistently, buy pen food, and play pen slots and you get practically nothing? it's time to work on increasing on track attendance night in and night out.... not just on special days.

[Relwob Owner]

Gilleas had posted in his press release on the c-town website some New Year's wishes

Jeff Gilleas: Publicity Manager/T V handicapper/Player’s Club host. “Spend more time with my family, tame the bulge, enjoy life, get out of debt, learn something new, help others and volunteer. From a racing perspective, especially on the simulcast horizon I would love to see the elimination of the time consuming ‘Jockey’s hold’ and curtail the number of extremely frustrating revenue deflating late scratches


Just a guess, probably didnt go over too well with the big wigs.


Well, you may have nailed it...cant imagine that anyone of the people in charge of the racing side of things loved seeing that.....may have led to things....didnt buy the "cost cutting" angle anyways since that would have probably had to have come from the Penn side of things and for the most part, I dont think they get involved much with the racing....

[Relwob Owner]

What happened to Jeff Gilleas?

SM,

How are ya? Just wanted to see if you have heard the new announcer at CT or knew anything at all abt what happened or if it is permanent....only hard him during the second tonight and it was kind of neat hearing a guy trying to do a professional sort of call for a 4.5 furlong race up there....

[Track Collector]

SM,

How are ya? Just wanted to see if you have heard the new announcer at CT or knew anything at all abt what happened or if it is permanent....only hard him during the second tonight and it was kind of neat hearing a guy trying to do a professional sort of call for a 4.5 furlong race up there....

The Mutuals Manager advised me this past Saturday (04/24) that the non-regular (for CT) race callers were temporary until the current one is back from a medical procedure.

[Saratoga_Mike]

SM,

How are ya? Just wanted to see if you have heard the new announcer at CT or knew anything at all abt what happened or if it is permanent....only hard him during the second tonight and it was kind of neat hearing a guy trying to do a professional sort of call for a 4.5 furlong race up there....

Too funny. I just went to espn.com to watch the 3rd at CT using my free 30 minutes of daily viewing time thorugh youbet.com, and I heard, "now let's have a look at the horses in the saddling yard." The saddling yard! Perplexed looks among the horsemen, no doubt. I want to be fair. I'm going to listen to him call the race, but so far I'm praying this isn't a permanent change.

"Egyptian Court has been scratched. He's a late scratch. He was 32-1 anyway. Scratched by the state vet." Okay, the "he was 32-1 anyway" was funny.

He just announced a cat running across the track. This is WV!

[Saratoga_Mike]

The call was fine until the last 1/4 mile, where he never called Brahma Fear anywhere in the stretch run (I think he even had the lead at one pt). He does seem to enjoy announcing things!

[Relwob Owner]

Too funny. I just went to espn.com to watch the 3rd at CT using my free 30 minutes of daily viewing time thorugh youbet.com, and I heard, "now let's have a look at the horses in the saddling yard." The saddling yard! Perplexed looks among the horsemen, no doubt. I want to be fair. I'm going to listen to him call the race, but so far I'm praying this isn't a permanent change.

"Egyptian Court has been scratched. He's a late scratch. He was 32-1 anyway. Scratched by the state vet." Okay, the "he was 32-1 anyway" was funny.

Okay he just announced a cat running across the track. This is WV!


that is funny.....I do like how he seems to notice and comment on many more things than normal. The cat is becoming kind of a legend up there-in true CT style, everyone knows about it and the potential things he/she could cause but noone does a thing:)

The vet is at it again:)

[Relwob Owner]

Ray Paulick has a headline indicating 7 jockeys at Charlestown have been suspended and the clerk of scales has had his license revoked...
Anyone know anymore?



Just wanted to see if anyone out there who follows CT notices that Robert Cole gets in off the A/E a lot....happened again tonight and resulted in a winner....

[takeout]

Interesting. I’ve only noticed it twice but both times he won.

I was looking at the fav in that race and wondering, 3 trainers later, if it is still a Cartagena horse.??? :confused: :bang:

[JWBurnie]

Did you see Cartagena ran two horses in his name at Pimlico?

[Relwob Owner]

Interesting. I’ve only noticed it twice but both times he won.

I was looking at the fav in that race and wondering, 3 trainers later, if it is still a Cartagena horse.??? :confused: :bang:


I think so......

[takeout]

Did you see Cartagena ran two horses in his name at Pimlico?Yes, I noticed that. Guess it’s just CT where he’s no longer welcome. ???

[BeatTheChalk]

As far as the Stewards go, they are incredible.....about a year ago, I ran a horse at a mile and an eighth.....there was a gate malfunction and one horse got about a ten length head start...he went wire to wire and won and they paid out the purses like normal....I saw the stewards and it wasnt pleasant. I asked why they didnt just pay each horse equally--his response(not kidding) was "It was a mile and an 8th race so your horse had plenty of time to make up the ground in the race..."....Optimism????

Say this is all nice and everything ....but when your horse is ready to win
at a decent price...well .... ..lay it on us :lol: :D :ThmbUp:

[Relwob Owner]

Say this is all nice and everything ....but when your horse is ready to win
at a decent price...well .... ..lay it on us :lol: :D :ThmbUp:


Are you kidding me? Of course I will lay it on you guys when we have one I like....have been on a tough streak lately with a good amount of disappointing efforts. I am always hesitant to tout my horses because the only thing more disappointing to me than losing is also knowing I caused other people to lose money. However, I know on this forum that people know the risks:)

Pimlico tomorrow 9th race, 4 horse, Sir Togo-could hit the board at a decent price...we will see if they take it off the grass!

[Relwob Owner]

Yes, I noticed that. Guess it’s just CT where he’s no longer welcome. ???

I think Mountaineer booted him....