Conditional Wagering

[Sabe]

Hello all,
If it is what I think it means, I am interested in “conditional wagering” (win only). That being the case, does anyone have any suggestions as to which betting site would be most advantageous for me? I see many of you often refer to "rebates". Is that an option on bets of this nature? Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance!

[senortout]

Hello all,
If it is what I think it means, I am interested in “conditional wagering” (win only). That being the case, does anyone have any suggestions as to which betting site would be most advantageous for me? I see many of you often refer to "rebates". Is that an option on bets of this nature? Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance!

Twinspires has conditional wagering, on win, place and show betting. I think the minimum wagers are $5 win, $10 place and $20 show, and the bet is not made unless your minimum odds are met with 2 mins to post, maybe I have some of those figures wrong its just off the top of my head.

Anyway, I think its pretty useless, considering the common pools are increased dramatically by money flooding in from off-site wagers WAY WAY closer than 2 mins to post.....so, for instance, you say you won't accept anything less that 3/2 on your big pick and its just at 3/2 with 2 min. left, well, as you probably have guessed....this 3/2 often becomes 3/5 and they've got your money anyhow!...so what use is it?...really???

I welcome others opinions, perhaps I've overstated this somewhat???

senortout

[cj's dad]

no you're right on target, the 2 minute cut-off is pretty much useless.

[Imriledup]

Tracks should lock in bettors at fixed odds, for any amount.

I'd be living in a mansion in a week if that ever happened.

[startngate]

Twinspires has conditional wagering, on win, place and show betting. I think the minimum wagers are $5 win, $10 place and $20 show, and the bet is not made unless your minimum odds are met with 2 mins to post, maybe I have some of those figures wrong its just off the top of my head.TwinSpires offers conditional wagering for Win and Daily Double wagering only. There are no minimums for the conditional wagers beyond what is imposed on a regular bet.

Premier Turf Club and YouBet also offer conditional wagering, but I am not sure of what their pools/limits are.

[cmoore]

Twinspires offers conditional wagering on win, exacta and the daily double..Minutes to post can bet set to zero..Minimum bets are $2..

[PaceAdvantage]

Wow, a lot of misinformation floating around in this thread...

WIN, DAILY DOUBLE, EXACTA & QUINELLA on TwinSpires...you can bet as much or as little as you could with any regular win, DD, ex or quin bet.

MTP can be set as low as 0. Note that the system checks your bet only once. Thus, if you set the cutoff to 3MTP, and let's say you have a win bet entered with minimum odds of 5-1, and the odds are 4-1 at 3MTP, your bet will not be entered into the system. Even if the odds drift up to 8-1 at 1MTP, your bet will still not be entered into the system, because as far as the conditional wagering goes at TwinSpires, it's a "one and done" deal. It checks only one time, at whatever MTP cutoff you specify.

That's why I still use my own program, which continually checks until the horses are off and running (and even then it will try and enter a bet if minimum odds are met...but of course the bet will be rejected because the race has already gone off...)

[Imriledup]

Why would anyone specify 3 mins and not 0 mins?

[MakinItHappen]

YouBet conditional wagering sounds very similar to TwinSpires, same pools, same normal wager limits. YouBet does allow you specify your wager timing as late as Post -2 minutes (0,-.5, -1, -1.5 are also options).

It also allows you to upload your wagers in batches of up to 200 conditional wagers, which is pretty slick. The file is a comma delimited file, so if you like, you can construct the file in Excel using columns for fields, then save as a .csv file and upload... commas are automatically entered for you.

Best of Luck Everyone!

MakinItHappen

[cmoore]

Why would anyone specify 3 mins and not 0 mins?


Exactly...

[ranchwest]

Why would anyone specify 3 mins and not 0 mins?

Well, the one circumstance I can think of is inclimate weather. Sometimes the race goes off before the listed post time.

[DJofSD]

MTP can be set as low as 0. Note that the system checks your bet only once. Thus, if you set the cutoff to 3MTP, and let's say you have a win bet entered with minimum odds of 5-1, and the odds are 4-1 at 3MTP, your bet will not be entered into the system. Even if the odds drift up to 8-1 at 1MTP, your bet will still not be entered into the system, because as far as the conditional wagering goes at TwinSpires, it's a "one and done" deal. It checks only one time, at whatever MTP cutoff you specify.

Mike has posted details that are the essence of what I had happend to me. I had a conditional win bet set at 2 minutes before post time with a minimum odds. While I expected a nice healthy addition to my account balance I actually had no change. The bet was not placed.

When I contacted TS via email, the explanation I received was the odds dipped below the minimum I had set and had apparently had done so just at the most inoppertune time.

What made this explanation frustrating was I actually was online watching the odds and viewing the video feed of the race. I didn't see the odds on my horse dip below my threshold but to be honest bout it, it was right at the border.

The other variable that Mike mentions is the minutes to post. The published expected off-time is what TS uses. If the race is has a delay, and every one know a race hardly ever goes off at the published time, your conditional wager is acted on by TS based upon the publiished time and is not adjusted to take into consideration what the actual post time will be. It would be interesting to see how TS conditional betting works when there is a gate scratch both in terms of the change in post time and the change in odds.

Back to my experience. When I received a response from TS, I was not satisfied with the explanation. I wanted some details data showing me the odds of my horse in a timeframe so I could see that at 2 minutes from the published post time, the odds on my horse had actually dipped, even if momentarily, below my conditional wager threshold. TS either could not or would not do so. It was basically 'trust us'. Well, I don't and I do not have access to any data to prove it one way or the other. Like I said, I actually was online watching and never saw the dipped below my minimum odds that TS said actually happened.

So, for me, there is a huge gap with using conditional betting at TS. When it comes to proving the service is working as expected I do not have any way to "play computer" in order to verify after the fact what actually did or did not take place was what should have happened. Think about it. If you place an order for a trade with your online broker for a limited trade, you can obtain market data afterwords to verify the conditions to confirm the action was legimate. Betting horses should not be any different.

[dvlander]

I seem to be experiencing Murphy's Law with my conditional wagers. Two days ago, I had set up two wagers with minimum odds of 9-2 at 0 MTP. When I checked at the end of the day, the first conditional ended at 4.9 to 1 and won the race and was NOT accepted. The other conditional finished out of the money at 2.9 to 1 and WAS accepted. Hopefully, this stuff evens out over time.

By the way, how theoretically difficult would it be for the ADW's to program conditional wagers to continue to check the odds at every tick from your specified MTP until the bell sounds? I would think it would be in their financial interests to do so since it would increase handle. Logically, horseplayers don't care that the odds requirement is met at EXACTLY 0 MTP or whatever other time you choose. Horseplayers want the odds requirement met as close to the race start as possible without getting shut out.

At best, I am a minor league programmer but I can't imagine that this logic would be that difficult to code.

Dale

[trigger]

I seem to be experiencing Murphy's Law with my conditional wagers. Two days ago, I had set up two wagers with minimum odds of 9-2 at 0 MTP. When I checked at the end of the day, the first conditional ended at 4.9 to 1 and won the race and was NOT accepted. The other conditional finished out of the money at 2.9 to 1 and WAS accepted. Hopefully, this stuff evens out over time.

By the way, how theoretically difficult would it be for the ADW's to program conditional wagers to continue to check the odds at every tick from your specified MTP until the bell sounds? I would think it would be in their financial interests to do so since it would increase handle. Logically, horseplayers don't care that the odds requirement is met at EXACTLY 0 MTP or whatever other time you choose. Horseplayers want the odds requirement met as close to the race start as possible without getting shut out.

At best, I am a minor league programmer but I can't imagine that this logic would be that difficult to code.

Dale

The ADW doesn't know when the bell is going to ring.
Also, many of the bets made up until the bell rings don't show up in the tote odds until the race is already underway.

[Imriledup]

Its all bogus. If they don't have the ability to place your wager at 0 mtp (whenever that happens to be) than its a system that needs fixing.

[PaceAdvantage]

Its all bogus. If they don't have the ability to place your wager at 0 mtp (whenever that happens to be) than its a system that needs fixing.They place your wager (if the odds are right) when the tote hits 0mtp. Who said they don't?

[Imriledup]

They place your wager (if the odds are right) when the tote hits 0mtp. Who said they don't?

People were saying on this thread that they go on LISTED post time and not actual post time.

Races hardly ever go off at 0 mtp, they always seem to delay 30 secs or a minute or more before the gate actually springs.

[PaceAdvantage]

Of course they go by listed post time. How else could the computer enter the wagers for you? Unless of course the NTRA has invented a computer that can watch a TV monitor and figure out the exact moment the starter is about to pop the latch at every track...

What am I missing here?

[Imriledup]

Of course they go by listed post time. How else could the computer enter the wagers for you? Unless of course the NTRA has invented a computer that can watch a TV monitor and figure out the exact moment the starter is about to pop the latch at every track...

What am I missing here?

Can you list a wager at negative 1 minute to post?

[rastajenk]

Maybe if you're playing a Breeders Cup Pick Six.

[PaceAdvantage]

Can you list a wager at negative 1 minute to post?You must certainly could if you were writing the program. But of course, your risk of getting shut out increases greatly.

[Ray2000]

They place your wager (if the odds are right) when the tote hits 0mtp. Who said they don't?


I use Youbet and Twin conditional wagering alot. If you compare the listed MTP at the site with MTP on their streaming video and with TVG's Dish Network television show, there's always a difference. I've always assumed that the conditional wager will be placed if conditions are met using the site's updated MTP, meaning if Youbet says 0 MTP the bet is sent even if the other signals show 1 MTP.

AM I wrong on this?

[startngate]

The ADW's all get a data feed from tote to be able to display the information on screen. The conditional wagering system would have to use the MTP in that data feed.

DJofSD ... the on-screen refreshes of data are set by the web application, so it's very likely that you were not able to see any interim odds updates until well after the actual times the data hit the back-end of the ADW software. for example, most online toteboards only update once a minute, while odds updates on most tracks come every 45 seconds.

Because of this, and the fact that even the video overlays at the track get the same data feeds, you will never see 100% perfect odds and pool totals either online, or by watching the video feeds (this also answers Ray2000's question).

Any ADW should be able to request the odds information from the tote hub. I just don't know if it's stored after the live day. I'm also sure that every ADW keeps a a log file for all of the conditional wagering transactions that could be looked through specifically for this reason (to validate disputes). While 'trust us' may be an acceptable answer for some, if you still believe there was an error, I would escalate your query to a manager. From a liability standpoint they would have to store it. It would be too easy for someone to win a case without the ADW having documentation to back up the acceptace/decline of a bet.

[trigger]

Its all bogus. If they don't have the ability to place your wager at 0 mtp (whenever that happens to be) than its a system that needs fixing.

The racing industry has been "working" on a new tote protocol for years (at least, since 2004).
Google "Wagering Transmission Protocol" for more info.
Don't hold your breath until this new system gets implemented.