Cons here do not Speak for the Rest of us

[hcap]

As much as the knee-jerk right here has posted a shit load of anti-Obama/Dem/Lib/Socialist/21st century thinking, you gentlemen represent a small but vocal cry baby contingent.

" The number of people who said they thought the country was headed in the right direction jumped from 15 percent in mid-January, just before Mr. Obama took office, to 39 percent today, while the number who said it was headed in the wrong direction dropped to 53 percent from 79 percent. That is the highest percentage of Americans who said the country was headed in the right direction since 42 percent said so in February 2005, the second month of President George W. Bush's second term.

The percentage of people who said the economy was getting worse has declined from 54 percent just before Mr. Obama took office to 34 percent today. And 20 percent now think the economy is getting better, compared with 7 percent in mid-January.

Just 31 percent of respondents said they had a favorable view of the Republican Party, the lowest in the 25 years the question has been asked in New York Times/CBS News polls.

By more than three to one, voters said they trusted Mr. Obama more than they trusted Congressional Republicans to make the right decisions about the economy. And by more than two to one, they said they trusted Mr. Obama to keep the nation safe, typically a Republican strong suit.

Respondents were asked, "Regardless of how you usually vote, do you think the Republican Party or the Democratic Party is more concerned with the needs and problems of people like yourself?" Respondents preferred Dems, 57% to 22%.

Almost three-quarters of Americans think it is a good idea to raise taxes on people making more than $250,000 per year. In fact, two-thirds of Americans think the tax code should be changed so that middle-class Americans pay less than they do now and "upper income" people pay more.

Fifty-seven percent of Americans say they are willing to pay higher taxes in order to provide all Americans with health care coverage.... Asked which domestic policy area the president and the Congress should focus on other than the economy, thirty-five percent said health care, the top choice."

Fox News, Limbaugh, and far-right bloggers may be outraged by a progressive agenda, but the public in general seems to think it's a good idea.



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/us/politics/07poll.html?_r=1

[Warren Henry]

Since this is a handicapping site, would you care to wager on how those numbers will be trending in three months?

[Tom]

We are in the right hand tail of the intelligence distribution.
Call us the PA High 5er-sigmas.


Besides that, Horse Hockey!

[mostpost]

As much as the knee-jerk right here has posted a shit load of anti-Obama/Dem/Lib/Socialist/21st century thinking, you gentlemen represent a small but vocal cry baby contingent.

" The number of people who said they thought the country was headed in the right direction jumped from 15 percent in mid-January, just before Mr. Obama took office, to 39 percent today, while the number who said it was headed in the wrong direction dropped to 53 percent from 79 percent. That is the highest percentage of Americans who said the country was headed in the right direction since 42 percent said so in February 2005, the second month of President George W. Bush's second term.

The percentage of people who said the economy was getting worse has declined from 54 percent just before Mr. Obama took office to 34 percent today. And 20 percent now think the economy is getting better, compared with 7 percent in mid-January.

Just 31 percent of respondents said they had a favorable view of the Republican Party, the lowest in the 25 years the question has been asked in New York Times/CBS News polls.

By more than three to one, voters said they trusted Mr. Obama more than they trusted Congressional Republicans to make the right decisions about the economy. And by more than two to one, they said they trusted Mr. Obama to keep the nation safe, typically a Republican strong suit.

Respondents were asked, "Regardless of how you usually vote, do you think the Republican Party or the Democratic Party is more concerned with the needs and problems of people like yourself?" Respondents preferred Dems, 57% to 22%.

Almost three-quarters of Americans think it is a good idea to raise taxes on people making more than $250,000 per year. In fact, two-thirds of Americans think the tax code should be changed so that middle-class Americans pay less than they do now and "upper income" people pay more.

Fifty-seven percent of Americans say they are willing to pay higher taxes in order to provide all Americans with health care coverage.... Asked which domestic policy area the president and the Congress should focus on other than the economy, thirty-five percent said health care, the top choice."

Fox News, Limbaugh, and far-right bloggers may be outraged by a progressive agenda, but the public in general seems to think it's a good idea.



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/us/politics/07poll.html?_r=1

There ya go again; posting facts.

[ArlJim78]

hilarious, hang on to those poll numbers, they will be fun to revisit down the road.

[Tom]

Right and wrong are not decided by consensus.
Your and hcap's logic only reaffirm how great a president Bush was, twice elected and all. Do you think that you two were totally wrong for the last 8 years?

[ArlJim78]

here are some Rasmussen numbers on job approval that I would think should cause some concern.

Jan 22nd, 76% of Democrats strongly approve
April 7th, 62% of Democrats strongly approve

why did he lose so much ground within his own party in less than 100 days?

no need to answer, I already know its Rush Limbaughs fault.

[JustRalph]

Right and wrong are not decided by consensus.

Right on Target! Half the people in this country shouldn't be allowed to answer polls.........or vote :lol:

[hcap]

Since this is a handicapping site, would you care to wager on how those numbers will be trending in three months?The mess inherited by Obama is correctable, but it will take more than 3 months.
I agree that the numbers will decline, but the real question is can the whiners who are NOT in agreement with the rest of us keep their mouths under control enough so we have a decent chance to stop the ship from sinking. Meanwhile all the negativity here and NOW is NOT where the sentiment of the rest of us. That is my point. You guys represent a wailing minority. Now.

http://images2.dailykos.com/images/user/426/pollster_406c.gif

You have every privilege to dissent, but crap like this is typical...

Glen Beck:"The only way to stop bloodsuckers like Obama,is to drive a stake through his heart"

Of course the anti-Obame threads and posts here are worse than Beck. but not many out in the real world give a shit

[delayjf]

So hcap, are you now saying that Americans want to move into a Social democracy? I think it's obvious what your preference is.

[ArlJim78]

i would have the same opinion of him if he were at 90% approval. are there people that actually use polls in order to make up their mind as to what is right and what is wrong? :bang:

[GaryG]

Progressive is just a euphemism for Socialism. A lot of decent people were sucked in by the Emperor's slick promises. From each, according to his ability, to me....I will redistribute it.

[hcap]

Right and wrong are not decided by consensus.
Your and hcap's logic only reaffirm how great a president Bush was, twice elected and all. Do you think that you two were totally wrong for the last 8 years?
So your argument on the thread "Who the HELL does this jerk think he is?????" about the Christian "Consensus" is bogus? :D

Once again, for my slow-witted far right posters, the point is all the crap that is the far right HERE bullshits about, are not the feelings of the majority of rest of us. Doesn't mean that Obama will succeed, just that my perception that this board is moving further and further away from mainstream America is accurate.

You guys speak for the crowd that yell "Fire, Fire" in a crowded theater to get off your jollies.

[BlueShoe]

Where did hcap get those numbers from,the New York Times,the Washington Post,or MSNBC?Never in my lifetime has the first few weeks of an incoming presidents policies aroused such widespread alarm and opposition.Never,and I was alive when Truman entered the Whitehouse.

[hcap]

So hcap, are you now saying that Americans want to move into a Social democracy? I think it's obvious what your preference is.
As much as the knee-jerk right here has posted a shit load of anti-Obama/Dem/Lib/Socialist/21st century thinkingBut we are already employing socialism to some degree. Probably a bit more socialism is required. Most of the world tilts their mixed economy further to the left than we do. Certainly restoring the tax rate for the very rich BACK to where it was under Clinton, a few percentage points, will not plunge us into soviet style autocratic communism.

[hcap]

Where did hcap get those numbers from,the New York Times,the Washington Post,or MSNBC?Never in my lifetime has the first few weeks of an incoming presidents policies aroused such widespread alarm and opposition.Never,and I was alive when Truman entered the Whitehouse.
The link is posted.
Opposition and alarm yes, from knee-jerkers like you. The rest of the country is giving the black guy a chance. As is the rest of the world.

[ArlJim78]

notice who ALWAYS injects race into the discussion.

[hcap]

notice who ALWAYS injects race into the discussion.
Not worth a reply. Other than the man is the first black pres. I don't post here much anymore. Crap like this is why.

[BlueShoe]

Yes,am sure that the rest of the world is giving him a chance,in fact,a very big chance.The North Koreans,Iran,the Taliban,El-Qaeda,the ChiComs,the Russians,the Euro-Socialists,the Castros,Chavez,and the Left wing loons in the USA just love his chances,chances,that is,to weaken us and turn us into a Marxist/Leninist gulag.

[Tom]

Right on Target! Half the people in this country shouldn't be allowed to answer polls.........or vote :lol:\

...or breed!

Screw it, NUKE 'EM!

[mostpost]

We are in the right hand tail of the intelligence distribution.
Call us the PA High 5er-sigmas.


Besides that, Horse Hockey!

The more erudite amongst us call it Polo:D

[Tom]

The mess inherited by Obama is correctable, but it will take more than 3 months.

He voted in favor of most of it. Strongly campaigned for some of it. Knew full well about all of it.

He did not inherit anything - he SOUGHT it. So no excuses. He knew going in what the deal was.

Bush didn't, but he should have.
Nevertheless, he reacted successfully where it mattered.

[Tom]

The more erudite amongst us call it Polo:D

Depends on the puck.

[Warren Henry]

Hcap seems to be part of a minority group on this forum. Could that be because most of the folks on this forum can think for themselves rather than being taken in by the left leaning propaganda.

I suspect that the majority of the people in this country will continue to lean left. After all, their leaders promise them that they can continue to have things that they did not earn.

Taxing the producers more and more only works up to a point. Once that point is reached, the whole country becomes much more equal -- equally poor and disadvantaged. Then it will be too late to see the light.

[hcap]

So hcap, are you now saying that Americans want to move into a Social democracy? I think it's obvious what your preference is.
Seems that a majority of physicians are communists as well. You gentlemen better get used to singing The Internationale. In French or Russian will do.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g6m4153528pq2712/fulltext.html

The vast majority of physicians surveyed supported a change in the health care financing system. While a plurality support the use of financial incentives, a substantial proportion support single payer national health insurance. These findings challenge the perception that fundamental restructuring of the U.S. health care financing system receives little acceptance by physicians.

Single payer was strongest in the northeast, weakest in the midwest.

The overwhelming majority of physicians (88.9%) agreed that all Americans should receive needed medical care regardless of ability to pay (Table 2)... Only 9.1% (95% confidence interval [CI], 7.7–10.5%) of U.S. physicians would preserve the status quo (Table 3). While a plurality (49.2%; 95% CI, 46.8–51.6%) support the current employer-based system with the addition of either tax credits or tax penalties, 41.6% (95% CI, 39.2–44.0%) of physicians support a single-payer NHI program that is run by the government and financed by taxpayers.


.................................................. .................................................. ...
Hey Warren for your benefit when the proletariat takes over this board.
Like PA thinks was the status before Obama. :D

The lyrics to The Internationale... Ah won und a too.

Arise, ye workers from your slumber,
Arise, ye prisoners of want.
For reason in revolt now thunders,
and at last ends the age of cant!
Away with all your superstitions,
Servile masses, arise, arise!
We'll change henceforth the old tradition,
And spurn the dust to win the prize!
So comrades, come rally,
And the last fight let us face.
The Internationale,
Unites the human race.
So comrades, come rally,
And the last fight let us face.
The Internationale,
Unites the human race.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :cool:

[Tom]

I can just visualize that little girl with face paint goose-stepping down the street, one are stretched out straight, 45 degree angle. Eyes fixed and dialated, vacant stare, singing that song.

[hcap]

Hey rocky, what about those doctor socialist types I linked to?
Maybe they will march as well. My insignificant contributions to the Socialist Workers Party :D , pale in comparison to most of MDs in this country marching. Or maybe we are all Manchurian Candidates ready to take over? Like your inspiring Aryan Nation, Tim McVeigh revolt in DC fantasies. Lala land is mostly right leaning.

[BlueShoe]

So,hcap,which party did you say you belonged to?Does it start with an S,a C,or,least likely,a D?Often do I quote Lenin,but only to show how deadly the situation has become.When you post the Internationale,is it because you believe the message,or just to be sarcastic and to needle the Right?Beginning to wonder----

[boxcar]

The link is posted.
Opposition and alarm yes, from knee-jerkers like you. The rest of the country is giving the black guy a chance. As is the rest of the world.

Technically, he's a gray guy, isn't he? :rolleyes:

And the "rest of the country" and the "rest of the world" are behaving predictably -- just as independent thinkers know they would, i.e. as dumb sheep being led to slaughter. Just goes to show that Misery does desire a lot of company, doesn't it?

Boxcar

[Warren Henry]

Hcap,

Do you honestly think that the workers or "common people" are really better off in France or Russia than they are here?

If you say YES, then I suggest that you go spend a little more time with them to insure that you are correct.

If you say NO, then why the fanatic desire to change our system?

I can't decide if you are really serious, or if you are one of those that just likes to stir the pot.

[Lefty]

Socialized Medicine hasn't worked very well in England or Canada So I guess the people who think it's a good idea haven't been apprised of the facts.
They might learn the hard way if we get it.
My wife has had a battery of tests in the last month because the bone graft in her neck is separating. I wonder if we had Socialized Medicine how long she would have to wait for those tests?
Be afraid, Be very afraid of SOCIALISM

[ArlJim78]

Not worth a reply. Other than the man is the first black pres. I don't post here much anymore. Crap like this is why.
why is it crap to note that you were the first one to throw in the "black" remark?

so are you saying that since he's the first black president it's okay to refer to him as "the black guy"?

i can only imagine the howls if someone from the right said "I don't like this black guy".

[Lefty]

hcap, i have as much faith in a NYtimes/CBS poll as you would have in a
WallstJournal/Foxnews poll.
Tell ya what? Let's wait for Rasmussen's Poll.

Arljim, you are right. It's the left that's obsessed with race.

[mostpost]

From Warren Henry:Hcap seems to be part of a minority group on this forum. Could that be because most of the folks on this forum can think for themselves rather than being taken in by the left leaning propaganda.

No, it's because most of the folks on this forum can't think for themselves and are being taken in by the right leaning propaganda.

[Tom]

Nonsense. The right wing radio more often agrees with US, not the other way around.

[BlueShoe]

Right leaning propaganda?Taken in?By whom?We have Fox News,talk radio,and a few magazines.The Left has CBS,NBC,ABC,MSNBC,NY Times,Washington Post,LA Times and too many other papers to list here.They have Time and Newsweek plus public TV and public radio.Add the almost total domination of the motion picture industry and book publishing.So which end of the spectrum dominates the distribution of propaganda?In spite of all that,those of us that cherish liberty still manage to think and make our choices based on our own opinions and decisions.

[delayjf]

Seems that a majority of physicians are communists as well.
Probably because they want to get PAID. I've got a brother in law thats and ER doctor who claims about 20% of the patients he treats will not be able to pay for the treatment. A national healthcare systems means he doesn't have to worry about getting paid. Now if we could eliminate any mal-practice liability simular to the military system, for doctors it's party time.
Assuming of cource they could make the same amount of money as they did in the private sector.

[Warren Henry]

One of my customers years ago was an MD who had come to this country from England. The reason he came here was because of the socialization of the medical systems in Europe. He was frantically attempting to learn how to make a living betting horses because he could see what was beginning to happen to our medical system.

At the time, I thought he was over reacting. Now, I realize that because he had seen it first hand, he could recognize it again.

Ever talk to a Cuban who escaped to the US. They aren't too happy with the drift in this country either as they have seen it before too.

[Lefty]

Who was that guy that excoriated the PM of England? It was all over youtube and all the Fox talk shows. Daniel H, i'll call him.
Anyway as a citizen of Great Britain he pleaded with Americans not to adopt socialized medicine. He talked of rationing healthcare for the elderly and some cancer patients.
as Warrenm Henry says: Listen to those who have been there and also the ones that are still there!

[robert99]

Who was that guy that excoriated the PM of England? It was all over youtube and all the Fox talk shows. Daniel H, i'll call him.
Anyway as a citizen of Great Britain he pleaded with Americans not to adopt socialized medicine. He talked of rationing healthcare for the elderly and some cancer patients.
as Warrenm Henry says: Listen to those who have been there and also the ones that are still there!

The UK National Health system works fine.
The longest waiting time for any serious condition is 10 minutes when an ambulance will be at your front door following your call. Skilled paramedics will stabilise you in the ambulance until you get to the hospital - they will radio ahead about your condition. At the hospital you then get treated right away - no credit card checks, no insurance checks, no forms, no waivers - just fine treatment as good as you can get anywhere.

[ArlJim78]

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/04/07/nytcbs-poll-has-its-thumbs-on-the-scale-again/

this is why you should pay no attention to polls from major media outlets. They cook the books to get the desired result.

Case in point; this poll cited on this thread sampled people according to this breakdown;
Democrats: 39%
Republicans: 23%
a 16% differential favoring Democrats!

just the prior month the same outfit used this breakdown;
Democrats: 36%
Republicans: 26%
a 10% gap between Democrats and Republicans.

what happens when you juggle the percentages to show a 10 point swing within a month towards Democrats? shocka! it looks like everyone is happy and that enthusiasm is building across the land for your chosen candidate.
does anyone really believe that a large swing like 10% happened from February to March? of course not but they saw sagging interest in Dear Leader so the orders went out to come up with better numbers to prop him up.

according to Rasmussen 38.7% of American currently identify themselves as Democrats and 33.2% as Republicans, only a 5.5% differential. So if you were at all interested in presenting an accurate poll you would use those numbers to do your sampling.

[newtothegame]

Ive got to give Hcap credit.......

Seriously folks, even though Hcap and I are on TOTALLY different sides of this spectrum which we call politics, I see the need to give him/her credit here for a mment. I am in management, and deal with numbers regularly. One common theme amongst all of the managers I know is that you can make ANY number look as good or as bad as needed by YOUR agenda.
Hcap does this as well as anyone I have seen. All of the fancies charts...TONS of numbers, verbage that at times I have to pull out websters lol :lol:
His tactics to confuse and divide through the use of numbers is unrivaled on this site...for that, he is to be commended. For all of the rest of his B.S.....One can only surmise that even some of the greatest minds in history were "off their rocker".
Thanks for the laughs hcap....your one of the few on the left in which I almost always smile seeing your post.

[lsbets]

I'm trying to understand Hcap's thinking. According to his post:

53% wrong direction
39% right direction

Then he says a majority support what is being planned/proposed/going on.

In what liberal fantasy land is 39% a majority?

The majority think the country is headed in the wrong direction, according to Hcap's link. That would put the majority more in line with Tom than Hcap.

Try to spin out of it Hcap, your numbers say a huge landslide think Obama is steering us in the wrong direction. As you type, or link, because you can't seem to think without a link or cartoon, remember this one question:

Which number is larger - 53 or 39? :D

[Rookies]

Socialized Medicine hasn't worked very well in England or Canada So I guess the people who think it's a good idea haven't been apprised of the facts.
They might learn the hard way if we get it.
My wife has had a battery of tests in the last month because the bone graft in her neck is separating. I wonder if we had Socialized Medicine how long she would have to wait for those tests?
Be afraid, Be very afraid of SOCIALISM

Once again the complete b.s. from the Flushed Oxycotin Windbag School of incorrect thought is pablumbed up here as chapter and verse. IT IS NOT !Socialized Medicine has been a boon to the populace of virtually every country attempted. Many of the significant health factors, including infant mortality rates are better in Canada than America. Any comparison of cost shows that America pays, because of the ridiculous multi payer capitalist system of medicine, far far more than it should and of course- ensures far less !

Some of the finest hospitals in the world can be found here, including Sick Children's in Toronto, one I'm very familiar with through my own son some 25 years ago.

Be VERY afraid of the entrenched capitalist interests opposed to socialized medicine- from the Insurance Companies, Pharmaceutical Companies, Health Care Companies & the AMA. They factor making money more significantly than designing the best system of health care. All manner of this fearmongering bullshit will be vetted... just as it was in the early 60s in Canada !

It won't be easy, but it was never going to get done under any Republican admin who paid homage to those same interests.

[Warren Henry]

Why did it take almost six hours for Richardson to get to a hospital capable of caring for her?
The answer: no choppers
Quebec's medical evacuation system has NO emergency helicopters to transfer patients quickly to superior hospitals in Montreal.
"Our system isn't set up for traumas and doesn't match what's available in other Canadian cities, let alone in the States," Tarek Razek, director of trauma services for the McGill University Health Centre in Montreal, told the Associated Press

Good to know if you're planning a ski trip to Montreal. Or anywhere.

[JustRalph]

It worked so well for this guy

H4u5x9XAsAs

[Lefty]

robt99, rookies, Gee, I wonder why that membr of the european parliament would lie about your fine health systems. And what makes people say they're rationing healthcare for seniors and Breast cancer patients can no longer get 2 vital drugs that they need? Hmmmmm...

[NJ Stinks]

Hcap seems to be part of a minority group on this forum. Could that be because most of the folks on this forum can think for themselves rather than being taken in by the left leaning propaganda.


Just got here and you're wrong again. Most Dems at PA find the right leaners insufferable down here in Off-Topic General. So they stick to the horseracing sections. Unfortunately or fortunately for me, I am perhaps a little more thick-skinned or just enjoy talking politics a little more so I put up with people like you claiming to be a deeper thinker or whatever. :rolleyes:

Besides, I feel I owe it to my fellow left leaners down here to stick around and fight the good fight with them. :ThmbUp: We may not win you over but, after 8 years of pure misery, we can enjoy your suffering for a change. :lol:

[Lefty]

stinks, And you know this because:
You know all the dims on this board?
You took a poll of all the dims on this board?
You're Psychic?
You know nothing but feel it in your heart?

[Rookies]

robt99, rookies, Gee, I wonder why that membr of the european parliament would lie about your fine health systems. And what makes people say they're rationing healthcare for seniors and Breast cancer patients can no longer get 2 vital drugs that they need? Hmmmmm...

All we do is LIVE in BOTH the countries under discussion and have done so all our lives and under socialized medicine. There is always the suggestion from YOUR side that somehow socialized medicine is a completely incompetent strategy for health care and somehow second tier. It is certainly not second tier to America, although most neutral observers would say that improvements could be made.

Browning, the author of this health polemic from the right is featured in Human Events, HQ of the Conservative Underground ! In another associated link, he is featured immediately above a member of The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research which is a conservative[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Institute#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Institute#cite_note-1), market-oriented (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_economy)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Institute#cite_note-2) think tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_tank) established in New York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City) in 1978.

SHOCKING !:lol:

In the interest of fairnenss, (not Ralph simply skimming his admittedly huge empire of con thought,) here's a lengthy article on both Richardson and some of the faults of both systems.

A cure for the same old health care debate


Elizabeth Payne, The Ottawa Citizen

Published: Tuesday, April 07, 2009
Actress Natasha Richardson died of a head injury, not socialized medicine.

Despite that, a pointless debate is raging over what role Canada's health care system played in the actress's death after a ski accident at Mount Tremblant last month.

"Did socialized medicine kill Natasha Richardson?" more than one columnist has asked. On the Internet, defenders of Canadian health care have responded fiercely and predictably.


Richardson's death from an injury sustained during a beginner ski lesson was tragic, unusual and certainly devastating for her family. If there are lessons to be learned, they are probably about the benefits of wearing helmets, the importance of taking head injuries very seriously and how fleeting life can be.
It is too late to save her, and it probably already was by the time she sought medical help several hours after the fall. Would a different system -- one with a helicopter at the ready, say -- have had a different result? It seems unlikely because she refused the help that was immediately offered, but the fact is we can never know. So where does the ideologically charged debate surrounding her death and the merits of the Canadian versus the American health care systems get us?

Nowhere. And that is a shame, because both Canada's ailing health care system and the badly flawed U.S. system are in need of improvement. An informed, open discussion would be a good place to start.

BOTH SYSTEMS

Instead, we have more of the same. For years, Canadians and Americans have used each other's health care systems as straw men to argue in favour of the status quo, to the detriment of both systems.

Canadians fear U.S.-style health care, and not without reason. The U.S. spends more than any country in the world on health care, yet upwards of 40 million Americans have no coverage. In addition, Americans are not as healthy as Canadians in significant ways -- we live longer than Americans and infant mortality is lower here than in the U.S.

Americans, if they have health coverage, might well have access to some of the best doctors and the best equipment in the world. When health care is good in the U.S., it tends to be great. But that doesn't compensate for the fact that the country's health care system is not serving its population well, in some cases not at all.

Many Americans equally fear the Canadian system. It covers everyone, but not quickly. Long waits for treatment and appointments and growing doctor shortages are the norm. There can be long waits and travel, in some cases, for diagnostic equipment such as MRIs or CT scans.

The problem with the Canada-U.S. debate is it has created the false impression that there are only two kinds of health care delivery systems in the world -- both of them flawed -- and that has made many on both sides of the border resistant to creative solutions for change.

The Canadian Medical Association has news for those who would throw themselves in front of a train to preserve Canada's health system as we know it -- there are other options, and they work.

CMA president Dr. Robert Ouellet recently returned from Europe with eye-opening news about health care in countries including France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark and England, that apparently happily combine public and private funding; leave no one uncovered, and are highly efficient.

Europeans, he said recently, are baffled to hear that Canadians frequently wait months for a doctor or medical procedure.


And they have a point. Why do so many Canadians wait for health care services without asking whether there is a better way? Maybe the discussions around health care are so ideologically stultified that people are afraid to ask.

The European systems the CMA studied use both the private sector and public health care but maintain the principle that no citizen should go without health care. They have either short or no wait times, yet spend less money on health care than Canada. The systems ensure not only equal access to health care, but timely access, he said.

And, notably, there are no ideological divides about whether private or public health care is best. The interchange between the two systems, he said, "is transparent, almost organic. There is no difference because it is the patient's need that determines how and where care is provided, not ideology or cash."

Dr. Ouellet says he would like to see a universal health care system with timely access and sustainable funding where "ideologies take a back seat to good ideas."

It might not be too much to hope for, if only we could take our ideological blinders off and open up the discussion.

[NJ Stinks]

stinks, And you know this because:
You know all the dims on this board?
You took a poll of all the dims on this board?
You're Psychic?
You know nothing but feel it in your heart?

I guess I'm not that thick-skinned. :(

:p

[PaceAdvantage]

As much as the knee-jerk right here has posted a shit load of anti-Obama/Dem/Lib/Socialist/21st century thinking, you gentlemen represent a small but vocal cry baby contingent.Replace a few choice words, and you would be describing YOUR very own actions here on off-topic during the Bush administration. Like I said, Karma is indeed a bitch.

And remember, lots of folks did NOT vote for Obama. Sentiment in this country could very well turn on a dime given the right impetus.

I'll give you credit for one thing...your hubris is amazing in its abundance. You would figure a guy who has been on the LOSING end of things for so long would tread a little more lightly in public, but instead, you flagrantly and defiantly wag your finger at the goddess of Presidential Approval Ratings.

Stock market is teetering on the brink right this moment...S&P hovering at the 800 mark, DOW down another 100 points overnight after dropping 186 yesterday....

I think the coming weeks are going to be a big referendum on the Obama administration in the equity markets. We're either going to test the devil's number on the S&P or soar to new heights.

My bet is we test 666 in rather short order...good luck!

[PaceAdvantage]

Fox News, Limbaugh, and far-right bloggers may be outraged by a progressive agenda, but the public in general seems to think it's a good idea.What happens when the people get to see and feel the results of such a progressive agenda? That's the real question. Theories are always much rosier before they are put into practice.

Your entire thread premise and the statistics contained therein mean nothing until the affects of Obama's plans are felt in the system.

This would be like taking a poll of everyone before the Iraq invasion and concluding it was a wonderful idea. After all, almost everyone in Congress supported the idea and the majority of the public was behind the President.

Do you see how your thread now means next to nothing without knowing the actual results of this supposed agenda?

[PaceAdvantage]

Once again, for my slow-witted far right posters, the point is all the crap that is the far right HERE bullshits about, are not the feelings of the majority of rest of us.Oh, my my. More name calling from a far-right poster....

Oh, wait a minute. You're not a far-right poster...so sorry...I was told only the far-righties name call....:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't post here much anymore.Shit man, you could have fooled me! I'd hate to be a moderator at the forum where you DO post more....:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

No, it's because most of the folks on this forum can't think for themselves and are being taken in by the right leaning propaganda.Would this be considered name calling if someone on the right said those on the left can't think for themselves? I think it would be...:ThmbUp:

You guys are right. Only the righties resort to name calling...:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Once again the complete b.s. from the Flushed Oxycotin Windbag School of incorrect thought is pablumbed up here as chapter and verse.Do I detect more name calling from the far-right in this reply? I think I d____DAMN IT! You're not a far-right guy....DAMN IT! DAMN IT! DAMN IT!

I was told only far-righties resort to name calling! Oh this is SOOOO frustrating! :mad:

[PaceAdvantage]

I hope you all enjoyed my channeling of 46zilzal's machine-gun style of posting in this thread.

Brought back fond memories for me too!

BTW, if this is what NJStinks meant when he said "insufferable," I apologize to him in advance.

[Lefty]

rookies, that guy, Daniel H, a member of Parliament hails from your side of the pond, and he says your healhcare is a disaster. Are you telling me that the stories about rationing and cancer drugs being withheld from breast cancer patients are lies?

[JustRalph]

Funny........nobody responds to the video..........

Odd?

[Tom]

Remember that Monty Python movies, where they cut of that knight's arms and legs, and he keeps on hollering that he is not beat yet?

hcap.



:D

[hcap]

"The Republicans, in particular, have lost quite a bit of support over the past several years; those persons who continue to identify as Republicans are a hardened -- and very conservative -- lot. Just 24 percent of voters identified as Republican when Pew conducted this survey in March, which is roughly as low as that total has ever gotten."

Don't look like I am the one missing limbs

[hcap]

More on YOUR missing limbs

http://images2.dailykos.com/images/user/426/terbpsfsx0_ckapfb3aygw.gif
I'm trying to understand Hcap's thinking. According to his post:

53% wrong direction
39% right direction

Then he says a majority support what is being planned/proposed/going on.

In what liberal fantasy land is 39% a majority?

Look at the above. Can you decipher the lines, or are they too squiggly fer ya? Independents have abandoned you


Ive got to give Hcap credit.......

Seriously folks, even though Hcap and I are on TOTALLY different sides of this spectrum which we call politics, I see the need to give him/her credit here for a mment. I am in management, and deal with numbers regularly. One common theme amongst all of the managers I know is that you can make ANY number look as good or as bad as needed by YOUR agenda.
Hcap does this as well as anyone I have seen. All of the fancies charts...TONS of numbers, verbage that at times I have to pull out websters lol
His tactics to confuse and divide through the use of numbers is unrivaled on this site...for that, he is to be commended. For all of the rest of his B.S.....One can only surmise that even some of the greatest minds in history were "off their rocker".
Thanks for the laughs hcap....your one of the few on the left in which I almost always smile seeing your post.Glad to make you almost smile.

As far as I can tell there are no manipulations of data in the above chart. Pretty clear what is going on.

While you are enjoying the thought that I am "off my rocker", I am enjoying the thought that you gentlemen while trying valiantly to keep your silly fantasies afloat, are only whistling a happy tune passing by the proverbial political graveyard.

[lsbets]

Juxtapose Barry's approval with Bush's at the same point, you might find it amusing.

You never answered my question - which number is greater 53 or 39?

[Lefty]

hcap, the presidency is not about being popular, it's about doing the right thing.

[delayjf]

So hcap, if 80% of the nation is down with Congress's socialist agenda, why the low approval numbers for Congress? What is it about Nancy Pelosi that makes you want to serve her?

[LottaKash]

People's consensus.......HAHA !

They all cheered, fought and died for Hitler, Stalin, & Mussolini, as well as others of their ilk throughout history.....So much for the people's polls...:D

And, wasn't it the popular consesus, that crucified Jesus Christ ?

Talk about the irony of ironies.....

Take your polls and shove em.....We (I) want the truth....

best,

[Tom]

Considering the total failure Bummy has been so far, that 90% says a lot about the dem side of the aisle, doesn't it?

Talk about your lock-step lemmings.

[BlueShoe]

Remember what Lincoln said?"You can fool some of the people all of the time,and all of the people some of the time,but you cant fool all of the people all of the time".When the last part of that statement comes to pass Comrade Obama is going to be in a world of trouble.Must add however,that Liberals very likely will remain locked in the some all of the time section.

[Rookies]

Do I detect more name calling from the far-right in this reply? I think I d____DAMN IT! You're not a far-right guy....DAMN IT! DAMN IT! DAMN IT!

I was told only far-righties resort to name calling! Oh this is SOOOO frustrating! :mad:

Oh, the old Defense of the Defensive & Indefensible chestnut !

If one side outnumbers the other 100-1, you find that one to justify the use of the 100. This strategy was at least used in the early 20th. century to justify crushing the opposition, if not before.

Clever- but called out !

[Rookies]

rookies, that guy, Daniel H, a member of Parliament hails from your side of the pond, and he says your healhcare is a disaster. Are you telling me that the stories about rationing and cancer drugs being withheld from breast cancer patients are lies?

Lefty, as someone on the left of some issues, I am unable to respond until now, since I work.

First, a bit of geography. I live in Canada, whereas the other poster lives in the Kingdom of UK. We are seperated by that thing called the Atlantic Ocean and both your country and mine parted ways with England some time ago.

Second, Ralph has naturally chosen a card carrying British CONSERVATIVE :eek: member of the European Parliament to take up his cause. Consider Hannah to be a combo of Hannity & Newt. He's perfectly entitled to his opinion, but obviously the leader of his own party at home doesn't share it and sees the absolute political peril in embracing it !

Latest reaction to Hannan can be found in The Guardian on April 5th., 2009:
Asked if Cameron agreed with Hannan, a Conservative party spokeswoman in London declined to comment and asked the Guardian to contact the office for Conservative MEPs in Brussels. A spokesman for the Conservative MEPs said Hannan was not speaking on behalf of the party.

"David Cameron has made it clear that the NHS is a number one priority for us. The Conservative party is fully supportive of a healthcare system that is free for all who need it. That is the belief and position that Timothy Kirkhope, the leader of Conservative MEPs, and his colleagues also support," said the spokesman.

On to your question. I don't have any background as to whether or not those statements are truth or false. I can only go with personal anecdotes.

1) My son spent the first 11 days of his life in the ICU of Sick Children's Hospital. He had 24 hour nursing care, where one nurse cared for him and one other baby. There were 3 nurses for 6 newborns. My son had multiple tests, including an ECG during his stay. Thankfully, at the end of this time period, we left with him. Cost to us financially = $0.

2) My mother has had 3 bouts with basal cell carcinoma over a period of 20 years. The last surgery, booked quickly ( say within 3 weeks) at one of Toronto's foremost Cancer hospitals lasted about 11 hours. She had intensive nursing care in a 2 person room following the surgery. She left the hospital and is still alive, although the Carcinoma has returned. Financial cost to her = $0.

3) One of my children's friends discovered Breast Cancer, while away from Canada in a Commonwealth Country. She received immediate surgery, was able to return home to Canada within two weeks and started Chemo the next day. Financial cost to her after about several treatments = $0.

I can only go from my own personal experiences. Like the present head of the CMA, I don't think things are perfect. There is not a system on earth that is. But, I would much, much rather press to fill the deficiencies of a socialized system, than to worry about the financial consequences of a private one.

That's why my in laws from Pa (now deceased) wisely willed their house to their children prior to developing any long term illnesses. Why should they have had to do that ? (And btw, they had very, good U.S. Medical coverage due to retiring on multiple pensions- Army, Government,etc.)

[The Judge]

thank you for your reply. What you said about people deeding their home away because of fear of furture health care cost struck a cord with me. I was wondering about so called "rest homes" (elderly institutional care) who pays for this.

The reason I ask is that unless you take steps to protect yourself and you are placed in a "home" they take your home to pay for your care. Not only that but you must plan ahead as any deeding of property away can be voided if it was done within 6 months of the person being placed in the institution.

[Lefty]

Under Obama, deeding your house away won't help you much. He's bring back the old death tax.
Besides, the govt is wise to that trick anyway.
Obamas healthcare will be a nightmare. Do you really want a govt that has screwed up SS, Medicare and couldn't even run a whorehouse managing your healthcare?
If healhcare so damn good in Canada, why do those that can afford it, come to the U.S.
another thing: who makes the lifesaving drugs? Mostly Pharmacutical companies in U.S. How will Universal Healthcare affect them? I shudder the thought.

[NJ Stinks]

Find a senior citizen who says Social Security and Medicare are screwed up, Lefty. Good luck.

[Warren Henry]

Find a senior citizen who says Social Security and Medicare are screwed up, Lefty. Good luck.

I am a senior citizen. I know that Social Security and Medicare are screwed up. I have been drawing SS for 4 years and have gotten way more out than I put in. I just recently started getting coverage under Medicare. Since I was self-employed, I had to pay for my own health insurance. Now, the government takes care of me. Now, my doctor orders more tests for me because it is FREE.

I am also a veteran. Since I retired, I have very little income. Thus, the VA pays for my medicine with no co-pay. I get all of this even though I have money. Assets don't matter, it is all based on income. Becoming a senior citizen gave me a huge boost in standard of living even though I quit working. I LOVE THIS COUNTRY :lol:

Technically, I think my wife and I could get food stamps, but I draw the line on that one.

The system really is badly screwed up.

[Lefty]

Well stinks, I just looked in the mirror and that 71 yr old in there said, SS and Medicare are screwed up.

[Rookies]

Obamas healthcare will be a nightmare. Do you really want a govt that has screwed up SS, Medicare and couldn't even run a whorehouse managing your healthcare?
If healhcare so damn good in Canada, why do those that can afford it, come to the U.S.
another thing: who makes the lifesaving drugs? Mostly Pharmacutical companies in U.S. How will Universal Healthcare affect them? I shudder the thought.

This is always the inane argument from the conservative side, except that the Government HAS run it for over 40 years. If anything, there is a preponderance of bean counters watching costs.

This is an another Windbag urban myth. That Canadians leave for America for health care whenever they can. I'm calling bullshit again.

Canadian Pharma companies make drugs, including the generics that cost much less. Many Americans purchase these in huge quantities despite being harassed over the past 8 years by the Bush government at the behest of American drug companies protecting their profits !

There is no doubt that this wil be Obama's biggest seminal policy change. It's coming.

[Lefty]

SS is a Ponzi scheme. Ponzi schemes collapse under their own weight.

[Lefty]

I don't think it is a myth.
how much R&D does Canadian Pharma do as opposed to American companies? How much incentive will American companies have to do this much needed research under govt run healthcare? Hey they tried this nonsense in Hawaii and quickly gave it up because it cost too much.

[Rookies]

Lefty

Both Pharm companies and Drug Store chains are very successful under socialized medicine. They have been for 40 YEARS !

My b-in-law's kid is coming from Long Beach next week. Do you think he thinks he's coming to Vietnam ? Do you think that Americans haven't been treated here during their vacations in the past four decades ???

Geez`man... get out and see the world a bit.

[Lefty]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Universal_coverage_First_look_at_the_disaster_in_M assachusetts_011109.htm

A disaster in MA as it was in HA
so why do I think it will work in 50 states, or is it 57?

[Rookies]

Because, of course, size is everything. ;)

You need all components of the system on side to make it work.
You need to have ONE payer.
You need to have costs examined and controlled.
You need to restrict bullshit tort.

[Lefty]

to be fair, i did see a poll that Canadians for the most part, were happy with their healthcare.
As far as getting out in the world:
I'm In Vegas. why would I go anywhere else? I love this place.

[Rookies]

I was just there for 5 nights.

Froze my ass off on Friday, but loved going to the Canyon and V of F ! :ThmbUp:

[NJ Stinks]

SS is a Ponzi scheme. Ponzi schemes collapse under their own weight.

A ponzi scheme that may run out of money in 30 years if no action is taken. (Historically, action is always taken.)

Warren, you are the exception - not the rule. Most people are not self-employed and don't have the opportunity to pay SS taxes on their net income. (The vast majority pay SS taxes on their gross wages their entire working life - no news there.) As for the free frivolous medical tests, I'm surprised a man of your conviction would allow such a thing to happen.

Lefty, don't use your Medicare card next you see a doctor. After all, you don't like social programs and I would imagine Medicare paying 80% of your medical bills must compromise your principles greatly. Of course, being a lame Dim, I like the idea of making medical bills somewhat reasonable for all seniors. Don't know where I ever got that notion from. It must a weakness in my character.

[Lefty]

stinks telling me not to use my healthcare card is no arument for a broken system. Like SS it can't go on much longer losing this kind of money.
BTW, I have private insurance so I really don't use the Medicare card at the Dr.

I just read that Universal Healthcare cost 172 billion in Canada.
Obama has earmarked 600 plus billion for a DOWNPAYMENT on his concept of Universal Healthcare. That's why I have no hope for it being more cost effective than private insurance.

[Lefty]

http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/536/Health_Care_in_England_Not_Your_Cup_of_Tea_Introdu ction.html

Article about England's Healthcare.

[PaceAdvantage]

If one side outnumbers the other 100-1, you find that one to justify the use of the 100.One?

[hcap]

"The Republicans, in particular, have lost quite a bit of support over the past several years; those persons who continue to identify as Republicans are a hardened -- and very conservative -- lot. Just 24 percent of voters identified as Republican when Pew conducted this survey in March, which is roughly as low as that total has ever gotten.

We see some evidence of these effects in the comparison of Obama's numbers to those of George W. Bush's at a comparable point in his presidency. Obama and Bush had roughly the same level of support among members of their own party (88 percent for Obama, 87 percent for Bush) and roughly the same level of support among unaffiliated voters (57 percent for Obama, 56 for Bush). Bush, however, had more support from the opposition party (36 percent of Democrats versus 27 percent of Republicans). And yet Obama, not Bush, had the higher overall approval rating, because Democrats are a significantly larger constituency than Republicans."

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/04/whigs-federalists-strongly-differ-on.html


.................................................. ....................................


"Regardless of how you may vote, what do you
usually consider yourself: a Republican, a Democrat, an independent, or some other party?"

Rep Dem Ind
% % %
2008 26 36 31
2007 26 35 23
2006 27 36 24
2005 30 36 22
2004 31 34 24
2003 28 33 24
2002 31 34 24
2001 31 36 2

http://pollingreport.com/institut2.htm#Democrats

[rastajenk]

What would you do without polls?

[Tom]

He's got a million of them.
Keeps them in a poll vault!

[Warren Henry]

You know what? I agree, the Repubs have lost support.

And why is that, you might ask. Perhaps it is because the leaders of the party have strayed from conservative principles.

George's Dad lost because he caved to the Dems or believed them when they said that if he would go along with a tax increase, they would agree to cut spending. So, he went along with them and they conveniently forgot to do their part of the bargain. GHW Bush lost the next election because he broke his promise that he would not raise taxes (remember "read my lips"). He would have lost to almost any Democrat. There was nothing special about Clinton except that he had the balls to run for election even though old GHWB had a 91% approval rating at the end of the Gulf War. (Oh, by the way, IF GHWB could pizz away a rating that high by telling a single lie, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that the current Prez - who lies all the time - might lose his rating too.)

The Repubs lost control of the house a few years back because sold out their supporters. They pandered for votes, increasing spending and expanding the size of government.

When our guys screw us over, we tend to turn against them. That doesn't necessarily mean that we are for your guys. If the party ever again embraces true conservative principles (and I think they will), some of you will wonder what happened to the "left leaning" you are so gleeful about.

[hcap]

Oh-Oh, even The latest Rasmussen Report, a very conservatine polling
outfit shows you guys are losing your old-time Capitalistic Tools of Worker suppression. I suspect the last 8 years have turned the country around. After Bush should probably be abbreviated as in AB.

Sort of like BC or AD. To mark a turning point in political history. :D

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism

"Just 53% Say Capitalism Better Than Socialism
Thursday, April 09, 2009

Only 53% of American adults believe capitalism is better than socialism.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 20% disagree and say socialism is better. Twenty-seven percent (27%) are not sure which is better."

.................................................. ...................................

Just in case you are a bit fuzzy on the theme song, here it is again.....

The lyrics to The Internationale


Arise, ye workers from your slumber,
Arise, ye prisoners of want.
For reason in revolt now thunders,
and at last ends the age of cant!
Away with all your superstitions,
Servile masses, arise, arise!
We'll change henceforth the old tradition,
And spurn the dust to win the prize!
So comrades, come rally,
And the last fight let us face.
The Internationale,
Unites the human race.
So comrades, come rally,
And the last fight let us face.
The Internationale,
Unites the human race.

[Lefty]

hcap, despite the brainwashing the socialists and outright commies in our education system, not to mention the mainstream media, 53% still a majority.
So calling the capitalistic systen oppressive is the dumbest thing i've heard.
Did you know that the NY Times owns the Boston Globe and are asking concessions from the union? Ah, Socialists, they turn to capitalists when their pocketbook is involved.

[hcap]

Tom, this can only lead to one conclusion-47% of your fellow Americans are lazy "anchors", mooching off everyone else-particularly YOU.

Just think of all the 100s' of millions of welfare "queens" and kings lining up down at your local Social Services office, I bet just waiting to trade in their exorbitant excessive welfare checks and food stamps, for lotto tickets, booze and porno magazines. Time to march down to DC with your armed buddies and throw some heavy artillery-all your copies of "The Turner Diaries", and oh yeah thousands of Lipton tea bags-at those cowards in congress.

Why I bet those Socialist godless anchors don't even have real honest to goodness Amurican gen-u-ine birth certificates!!

Lefty, look around you in Vegas. It's no longer "What Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas". Now it's anything you WIN, (or earn for that matter) stays in the pockets of the OLIGARCHS and Socialist coffers of the oppressive All- seeing STATE.

Box, 47% of your neighbors are Godless heathens. How the hell does that sit with you? Oh wait a freakin' minute, that many more to preach your sanctimonious sermons to.

I guess all you gentlemen can paint a Communist-Socialist flag on Sarah and run her in 2012. Now she obviously is the candidate "closest" to the Soviet Socialists, and her ability to see them gives her a definite Socialist edge in the next election.

Hey maybe Rush will jump on the bandwagon and sing The Internationale as the new theme song intro for his new program? If he needs the proper lyrics I can help him out.

.................................................. ..............................................

"So comrades, come rally,
And the last fight let us face.
The Internationale,
Unites the human race."


Begone you evil Capitalistic Tools of Worker suppression

[rastajenk]

In the long sad history of your inane posts, this is one of the most inane.

[hcap]

Thanks.

Meanwhile, 47% of your fellow citizens have abandoned any thing you, or the rest of your lib/Socialist hating crew have ever said, or will ever say.

Cons here do not Speak for the Rest of us

[rastajenk]

"Twenty-seven percent (27%) are not sure which is better" and "47% of your fellow citizens have abandoned any thing you, or the rest of your lib/Socialist hating crew have ever said, or will ever say" don't jive.

[ArlJim78]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/380eosql.asp


"Some new indications suggest an improving environment for Republicans among independent voters. The first sign comes from a recent bipartisan poll conducted by National Public Radio (NPR). In a surprising result, the survey shows Republicans and Democrats in a virtual tie on the congressional generic ballot question ("Do you plan on voting for a Democrat or Republican in the next congressional election?"). GOP pollster Glen Bolger points out that the two parties tie despite a six-point party ID advantage for the Democrats. "The reason for the tie is simple," Bolger writes on his blog. "Independents are moving toward the GOP." The NPR survey finds Republicans leading on the generic ballot among independents (38%-24%) -- a result one strategist joked "hasn't occurred since the Lincoln Administration." Bolger further notes the Republican position is now preferred among independents on taxes, energy, health care and the deficit."


now why would Republicans be gaining amongst Independents? Looks like the reality has sunk in to them that they were duped big time.

[BlueShoe]

Hey 'cap,see by the time on your posts that it was quite late.Were you sober?You sure were rambling.You never did answer my question as to what party you are registered to.Lately you keep posting the Internationale.That,and earlier posts,have me thinking that perhaps early in your life you were influenced by the late Gus Hall?

[Tom]

Ah, Socialists, they turn to capitalists when their pocketbook is involved.

Tom, this can only lead to one conclusion-47% of your fellow Americans are lazy "anchors", mooching off everyone else-particularly YOU.

Two excellent observations.

hcap, agree - 47 sounds about right, +/- 5%

Lefty - hole in one. Socialism cannot sustain itself because it encourage un-productivity, not productivity. Obama himself basically has said that - he says only government can get us out of this mess, but yet, he targets only the wealthy to get the money. So government is dependent on the rich. In order to survive, we need the rich. Obama says this through his actions.

So, what happens when the rich go away or are taxed to death?
Easy....hcap, pay attention - Russia! You fail. Been done. Didn't work. Won't work now.

Show me a country that flourishes through the efforts of the poor.

[hcap]

I just thought I would illustrate how those remaining, whining angry 24 per centers who may feel deep in their hearts they are still reliving the 19th century and fighting the glories of the Spanish-American War. No matter how misguided they may be.

That's those same 24 per centers (youse guys) that still identify themselves as repugs. God only knows how many of those 24 per centers are still thinking neo con. (Uhgg!!) Dirty word. Disgraced and discredited, their only option left is to post angry shit on horse racing off-topic internet boards. As I said in the beginning of this thread....

"Cons here do not Speak for the Rest of us"

So guys, tell me if the cartoon below captures your existentialist world angst :lol:

http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2009/04/21/tomo/story.jpg

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by Warren Henry
Hcap seems to be part of a minority group on this forum. Could that be because most of the folks on this forum can think for themselves rather than being taken in by the left leaning propaganda.
Just got here and you're wrong again. Most Dems at PA find the right leaners insufferable down here in Off-Topic General. So they stick to the horseracing sections. Unfortunately or fortunately for me, I am perhaps a little more thick-skinned or just enjoy talking politics a little more so I put up with people like you claiming to be a deeper thinker or whatever. :rolleyes:

Besides, I feel I owe it to my fellow left leaners down here to stick around and fight the good fight with them. :ThmbUp: We may not win you over but, after 8 years of pure misery, we can enjoy your suffering for a change. :lol:hcap is a member of a shrinking minority still willing to spend time debunking the postings of a group of right-wing obstructionists here who are undeterred by the results of two successive elections and the realities of the economic crisis. Keep up the great work, hcap.

Despite PA's joy in having emulated 46's style, I'd prefer the real thing.

[hcap]

The ironic history of PA off-topic is that when I first started to post here in 2002, the minority here-the Left-was also among the minority throughout the country. The higher strata of bushs' foreign policy otherwise known as "Cowboy logic" was rampant here, and inhaled like the best weed that ever existed. The love of bush was a contagion here. And anybody denying his greatness and ever loving goodness was marginalized. Called stuff like traitor. Told to go back to Russia.

The right now outnumbers the left 10 to 1. Go figure.
You would think some sort of adjustment is in order. Maybe we Libs/Socialists can use sort of a-you guessed it-quota system that accurately reflects the ass-whupping that the repugs suffered. Electoral? What was that again? 365 or something (Any of you gentlemen wanna look it up??) to what was that again? ? Oh yeah Some very very dismal embarrassing inadequate repug showing. 173 was it?:cool:


Or to be fair the other extreme should reflect some sort of "Affirmative Action Program" to allow the 24% of disenfranchised voters-you poor sap neos- to post say 5x for every Lefty here?

Wait, we have that already. :eek:
Never mind

[Bubba X]

Well, it's probably simpler than you make it.

The extreme right posters here are just a bunch of angry, generally old, guys who got fat with Bush before the economic bust; who do have a right to their anger but cannot admit to not having a clue as to where to direct their ire.

When Phill Gramm engineers the dismantling of the regs governng the RE/Banking/Brokerage industries and sets the whells in motion for the economic collapse, who do they blame? Barney Frank.

When early Repub primaries are dominated by anti-abortion rants, they know, they just KNOW, that their party is going wrong. Do they blame Falwell? No. Do they blame Hagee? No. Do they blame their own candidates for pandering to these fear and loathing evangelists? No. Who do they blame? On this, no one. They just suck it up and refuse to make a stand against the hate mongering Religous Right. Or, alternatively, Barney Frank.

When the economy drops into the shitter in 2008 faster than Larry Craig's pants in an airport toilet and the Fortune 500 profit falls 80%, do they think for a minute that the current, conservative-based economic policies have ANYTHING to do with it? No. Who do they blame? Aside from Barney Frank, the blame the Unions. What a crock. Labor, during the Bush years, was fairly powerless, of course, as jobs were somewhat plentiful and both the Presidency and Congress (for 6 of 8 years) was not amenable to them. Or, of course, Barney Frank. Anyone who blames the Unions for the auto industry tanking is just lying. Or stupid.

When Gitmo fails and Obama shows the good sense to shut it down and ship interrogation to the Saudis, do they even acknowledge that Bush let go 2/3 of the detainees there? Hell no, they just cry about it. They blame, of course, anyone other than the guy who was in charge when it got f'd up.

The funny thing is how much blame Barney Frank gets and how his name just stays out there continuously. Ever wonder about that? Ever wonder how it is that all the blame goes on a now pretty useless guy like Barney while guys like Chriss Dodd get off pretty easy for their f-ups?

Barney knows his job, at least, which is to take the heat for the Dems. I don't particularly care for the guy but he is certainly doing his part for the Dem party.

In the meantime, desperation is manifesting itself with the Repubs as they have no clue what to do next. You have Texas yahooing about leaving. You have Georgia getting lippy too. In the meantime, Mike Steele and Rush Limbaugh are having issues. You have Eric Cantor looking shell shocked on TV. Boehner holds a press conference waving an empty folder he calls the Republican budget.

All the while, the great perceived "crimes" go unprosecuted. Rev Wright lives, somehow. Obama's birth certificate is still valid. Nobody gives a shit about abortion because it's not an election year. We are going to try to have a foreign policy that is not based on empty "Axis of Evil" style rhetoric.

I hope they get it together a bit. If they are still talking about Barney Frank a year from now, they are doomed.

[Lefty]

What brought on the republican defeat was the R's got away from their conservative base. When they try to be dem "light" they lose. They have got to get back to Reagan Conservatism. Then we'll see if this country really wants socialism.
But what's really terrible is the mainstream lied and told half truths about Bush for 8 yrs. They also practised omission of anything good that was accomplished. By contrast instead of reporting about Obama they attack anyone that dare criticize him. It was nrver more evident than by the coverage of the "tea parties" We truly have A pravda press.

[Marshall Bennett]

Well, it's probably simpler than you make it.

The extreme right posters here are just a bunch of angry, generally old, guys who got fat with Bush before the economic bust; who do have a right to their anger but cannot admit to not having a clue as to where to direct their ire.


What an immature way to begin such a laboring post . Sounds like your the angry one here . You need to adjust your attitude before posting an opinion . You sound like a spoiled brat .

[Bubba X]

What brought on the republican defeat was the R's got away from their conservative base. When they try to be dem "light" they lose. They have got to get back to Reagan Conservatism. Then we'll see if this country really wants socialism.
But what's really terrible is the mainstream lied and told half truths about Bush for 8 yrs. They also practised omission of anything good that was accomplished. By contrast instead of reporting about Obama they attack anyone that dare criticize him. It was nrver more evident than by the coverage of the "tea parties" We truly have A pravda press.I thought Reagan won his first election on the margin provided by the "Reagan Democrats."

Was that a Main Stream Media mirage as well?

[Bubba X]

What an immature way to begin such a laboring post . Sounds like your the angry one here . You need to adjust your attitude before posting an opinion . You sound like a spoiled brat .

Sorry to offend you. What exactly would you have me do different?

As an aside, I could say you sound like you have a superiority complex that compels you to toss out complex diagnoses like immature, anger spoiled, attitude and brat.

Your insult to total word ratio is very high, so if credit is due for that, you certainly score well.

[PaceAdvantage]

As an aside, I could say you sound like you have a superiority complexComing from you in this thread...as Arnold is want to say...."Dahts a gude von!"

[Bubba X]

Coming from you in this thread...as Arnold is want to say...."Dahts a gude von!"

Yet another sound bite lifted out of context.

Very Main Stream Media-ish of you?

[Tom]

I'll wait for the movie.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yet another sound bite lifted out of context.Awww man...come on...grow a funny bone! I thought you right-wing bashers were all about the comedy!

[lsbets]

What an immature way to begin such a laboring post . Sounds like your the angry one here . You need to adjust your attitude before posting an opinion . You sound like a spoiled brat .

Marshall, over the past week, Bubba has proven beyond a doubt that he's simply an idiot. Nothing more needed.

[Bubba X]

:sleeping: :sleeping: Marshall, over the past week, Bubba has proven beyond a doubt that he's simply an idiot. Nothing more needed.