Matt Carothers Is Awesome, But ...

[Thomas Roulston]

... the temper tantrum he throws every time one-half of an entry gets scratched at the gate in a NYRA race has long since passed the staleness threshold.

We all know how you feel about this by now, Matt - and do you have any better idea on what to do in this scenario?

[Bruddah]

I first read your post as Matt Caruthers was awful. I certainly agree with awful, not awesome. I also get tired of his babyish, boorish behavior. I would like to rent him a rope and send him out to play in a Tree. Who knows, we might get lucky. :rolleyes:

[lamboguy]

those guys got all "the inside info" and never lose.

ever wonder why they are all on television telling you how smart they are?

[Tom]

Paging Al.....Paging Al.....



;):D

[Relwob Owner]

... the temper tantrum he throws every time one-half of an entry gets scratched at the gate in a NYRA race has long since passed the staleness threshold.

We all know how you feel about this by now, Matt - and do you have any better idea on what to do in this scenario?

I am assuming you are talking about the fact that if one part of the entry scratches late, the whole entry is out?

[Marshall Bennett]

I may have posted this opinion earlier somewhere . What is most interesting about Matt is that generally he's a good handicapper . Its when he translates his knowledge and puts it on paper that everything turns to shit . For instance , his use of " aggressive singles " on pick 4 / pick 6 tickets where he singles a long shot . An otherwise cashable ticket , is shot down by a high priced speed horse ( he loves them ) . I've seen him use as many as 3 of these singles on a pick 6 ticket making it virtually worthless . As for his ranting , thats just Matt . Some of his rants are better than others .

[cj's dad]

I am assuming you are talking about the fact that if one part of the entry scratches late, the whole entry is out?

What several (Matt and Rich Perloff especially) on TVG refer to is that if 1/2 of the entry is scratched, the other half runs for purse money only. They believe (as I do) that in many cases the race shape is changed, and you certainly understand the different scenarios under which that can and does happen.

[cj's dad]

Paging Al.....Paging Al... ;):D

Apparently he's busy Tom so I'll sit in for him - I know he wouldn't mind.

"it must be the first of the month, so now we have the lets bash TVG obligatory
thread" !!

Did I do OK ??

[Relwob Owner]

What several (Matt and Rich Perloff especially) on TVG refer to is that if 1/2 of the entry is scratched, the other half runs for purse money only. They believe (as I do) that in many cases the race shape is changed, and you certainly understand the different scenarios under which that can and does happen.


Thanks for the word---that is what I thought but I wanted to make sure I had my facts straight before posting anything----I have heard Matt C rant about this and I think he is way off base....what if the half you liked scratched and you got stuck with the crappy horse and couldnt get out in time? The current policy seems to make good sense.

Thanks for the info cj's dad:)

[cj's dad]

Thanks for the word---that is what I thought but I wanted to make sure I had my facts straight before posting anything----I have heard Matt C rant about this and I think he is way off base....what if the half you liked scratched and you got stuck with the crappy horse and couldnt get out in time? The current policy seems to make good sense.

Thanks for the info cj's dad:)

It is a tough situation as the scratched horse by his absence effects the race; an example would be that if the scratch was early speed along with the #5, but is scratched and now the #5 is lone speed. If you bet on the #3 to pick up the pieces of a speed duel between the #1 or 1A & #5, well that is no longer a good betting angle and it is possible that your wager on the #3 cannot be cancelled in time.

Of course, gate scratches happen daily (see Charlestown as you know) but not with the same impact as on the NYRA circuit, I think.

[Relwob Owner]

It is a tough situation as the scratched horse by his absence effects the race; an example would be that if the scratch was early speed along with the #5, but is scratched and now the #5 is lone speed. If you bet on the #3 to pick up the pieces of a speed duel between the #1 or 1A & #5, well that is no longer a good betting angle and it is possible that your wager on the #3 cannot be cancelled in time.

Of course, gate scratches happen daily (see Charlestown as you know) but not with the same impact as on the NYRA circuit, I think.



Good points....as far as Charlestown goes, they are averaging a gate scratch about every other race...also, impact wise, Aqueduct seems to have more coupled entries and CT almost never has them....fortunately, the crews at CT dont load them right into the gate after a gate scratch so you have a little time to reassess....not being anywhere near a NY expert, I have noticed that there is very little time after late scratches to adjust, no?

again, thanks for the info..

[OTM Al]

Apparently he's busy Tom so I'll sit in for him - I know he wouldn't mind.

"it must be the first of the month, so now we have the lets bash TVG obligatory
thread" !!

Did I do OK ??

Well it is April after all, so it was due....I've been so busy lately its the only way I can tell time...Thanks to both for the fine catch. May comes soon enough though.....

[Tom]

:lol:

[big frank]

... the temper tantrum he throws every time one-half of an entry gets scratched at the gate in a NYRA race has long since passed the staleness threshold.

We all know how you feel about this by now, Matt - and do you have any better idea on what to do in this scenario? Where is the owner of tvg to defend Matt ?? Bob Grant are you out there ?

[slew101]

I'll say I enjoy his personality, but disagree with his handicapping style. He overthinks each race.

[Valuist]

I agree with Carruthers. Its a terrible rule re: halves of entries in NY that scratch. I have no problem with him pissing and moaning about it......he's doing it on behalf of other bettors.

[PaceAdvantage]

I like Matt as a host. I like TVG.

There, I said it.

[NY BRED]

regardless of all your thoughts, as all of you are expressing
your opinions highlights the fact that Matt creates the "spin"
of the TVG telecast.

The only announcers that bring a clear "perk" to the telecast ,
are Simon and Jill.

Once again,the issue with TVG is the insane pick 3 ,4 and 6
picks without any clear insight to novice viewers regarding
why these horses are selected and what this sport/game
is all about.

Frankly, TVG could probably dispense with many of the other
commentators and use a robot to present a "quick pick".

[Relwob Owner]

regardless of all your thoughts, as all of you are expressing
your opinions highlights the fact that Matt creates the "spin"
of the TVG telecast.

The only announcers that bring a clear "perk" to the telecast ,
are Simon and Jill.

Once again,the issue with TVG is the insane pick 3 ,4 and 6
picks without any clear insight to novice viewers regarding
why these horses are selected and what this sport/game
is all about.

Frankly, TVG could probably dispense with many of the other
commentators and use a robot to present a "quick pick".


Like Pace, I am a TVG fan and am surprised about the massive heat they get on this forum....there are things about them I dont care for(Nick Hines and his phrases, Frank Lyons and the fact half the time his voice is hangover driven, etc....) but I think that overall, they do a good job. They may not all be the hard core experts people on the forum want, but I like em...

As far as their insane pick 3 ,4 and 6
picks without any clear insight to novice viewers regarding
why these horses are selected and what this sport/game
is all about. I have to question that....on big Pick 6 Days, they have Pick 6 Central where they go over the picks....for every Pick 3 and 4. the announcers usually give a brief review of who and why....time wise, I dont think they could do that much more....as far as giving advice to novice handicappers, Perloff does a good job on Mondays and Tuesdays going over basic stuff and angles that the novice can use and understand...

[Relwob Owner]

I agree with Carruthers. Its a terrible rule re: halves of entries in NY that scratch. I have no problem with him pissing and moaning about it......he's doing it on behalf of other bettors.

Question for you....what do you say to the side of the argument that says that the rule protects you if the part of your entry is scratched that you like---so, you love the 1, dont like the 1A and then the 1 scratches, leaving you with a horse you dont like.....doesnt thie rule protect you as a bettor from being stuck with the one you dont like?

[cj's dad]

Fact: NYRA is not going to change the rule based on MC's rantings and ravings.

Opinion: To avoid grief, do not bet races with entries at the NYRA tracks unless you are in immediate reach of your computer and can cancel your wager within seconds of the gate scratch, if in fact the gate scratch causes you to rethink your wager.

Fact: TVG offers the instant cancellation button at their "wager history" drop down. Maybe other sites offer this as well but I do not know that for a fact.

Opinion: the opinions presented by the various hosts of TVG-HRTV-ESPN-ESPN2-ABC-CBS-NBC-Fox-or any other network do not influence my wagering. I tune in to "WATCH" not listen.

[BombsAway Bob]

Where is the owner of tvg to defend Matt ?? Bob Grant are you out there ?
Since BetFair has yet to open a Pace account, I'll try to "do some 'splaining..."
I believe it was 2006, & Matt had bet an entry as part of a Pick-4 at Belmont. The half he didn't care about was a late scratch, resulting in him getting the posttime fave in his Pick-4 play, even though the half he liked was still running. The horse Matt wanted on his ticket (running for purse-money-only) battled on the front-end with the posttime fave, putting him away in the stretch to win. As a result of the pace battle, a plodder came from off the pace & nailed the betting fave for second...err, first for mutuel wagering. So Matt watched his actual selection JOG, beating the P.T.fave. However, thanks to the NYRA rule on entries, in essence, he LOST TWICE on the same race. You'd rant, TOO!

[FlyinLate]

I like Matt as a host, not as a handicapper. I swear if I have to him here use the phrase "he gets the lead here" one more time.

[Relwob Owner]

Since BetFair has yet to open a Pace account, I'll try to "do some 'splaining..."
I believe it was 2006, & Matt had bet an entry as part of a Pick-4 at Belmont. The half he didn't care about was a late scratch, resulting in him getting the posttime fave in his Pick-4 play, even though the half he liked was still running. The horse Matt wanted on his ticket (running for purse-money-only) battled on the front-end with the posttime fave, putting him away in the stretch to win. As a result of the pace battle, a plodder came from off the pace & nailed the betting fave for second...err, first for mutuel wagering. So Matt watched his actual selection JOG, beating the P.T.fave. However, thanks to the NYRA rule on entries, in essence, he LOST TWICE on the same race. You'd rant, TOO!


I will admit, I must be missing something so please clarify for me....I do understand his frustration in that instance---however, what about when the horse he likes scratches and if not for the rule, he is stuck with a horse he doesnt like? In the Pick 4 scenario, wouldnt he rather have the post time favorite than be stuck with a half of the entry he doesnt like? As another poster astutely mentioned, maybe staying away from races with entries is the key, but in New York, that is harder...

I guess too, that I was looking at his frustration from a single race scenario, not from a Pick 3, Pick 4 or Pick 6 one and that may be a reason i didnt get it as much....

Late scratches seem like a "nature of the beast" sort of thing where it is hard to find a perfect solution---I understand his frustration but also think it is clear that he benefits from the same rule he hates if the horse in the entry he likes gets scratched and per the rule, he isnt stuck with the other horse.

[GaryG]

Most of us have endured worse than that, I know I sure have. Suck it up and be a man blondie.

[BUD]

regardless of all your thoughts, as all of you are expressing
your opinions highlights the fact that Matt creates the "spin"
of the TVG telecast.

The only announcers that bring a clear "perk" to the telecast ,
are Simon and Jill.

Once again,the issue with TVG is the insane pick 3 ,4 and 6
picks without any clear insight to novice viewers regarding
why these horses are selected and what this sport/game
is all about.

Frankly, TVG could probably dispense with many of the other
commentators and use a robot to present a "quick pick".

Being a TVG Baby of sorts--Being turned onto the game from them-Having some of my friends joining because of TVG---It offered something of interest that they would have never found---Excpt TVG-HRV being there----

Now I thouroly agree with NY Bred--They DO atract the Novice---Then Drowned him in P3's P4's P6's etc----Um the newbies can't even read the form----God forbid the Join TVG to wager-----The 25 cent it costs will kill them----

But all in all--- I owe TVG HRTV much for introducing me to this game-----I was lucky after..... Many came And helped me when I was on my way out the door---
You rarley will here me bash either TVG or HRTV---As I told the story on Sunday---When Matt was Acting like as @$$--the Man Tech guy putting my machine together was turned off--The Women was amused--I gave her my lap Top so she could Play Kee on free TVG----This lady will definatly be another player---I recieved a letter this morning asking where she should sign up----

So TVG may suck but It does bring in more players then its our job if we choose to mentor them some----Without any-----They are dead fish in the water before they even know it

Sorry about the spelling a virus killed my spell check-----And the tremors today are eating me alive----I look like ali holding the olympic torch---Im surprised he didnt burn the place down----My wife wouldnt trust me with a sparkler last year----Im digressing..

[fmolf]

i believe the answer is to just do away with coupled entries.......there is far less hanky panky now then when original rule was instituted to prevent trainer manipulations....and protect us bettors!i hope nyra can see clearly on this issue.....

[OTM Al]

I have no patience for those complaining about a rule ex post because it "Cost" them. If a coupled entry is a key in your wager, you are taking the added risk of the rule coming into effect. 99.5% of the time it won't, but it can and if you hate the favorite, then you should have adjusted your ticket accordingly or accept the outcome.

Now, if you are arguing against the rule ex ante, that is fine. Coupled entries probably no longer really matter that much as we have seen plenty of occasions when de facto entries run. Concerns should be addressed to the NYS Racing and Wagering Board.

[Relwob Owner]

I have no patience for those complaining about a rule ex post because it "Cost" them. If a coupled entry is a key in your wager, you are taking the added risk of the rule coming into effect. 99.5% of the time it won't, but it can and if you hate the favorite, then you should have adjusted your ticket accordingly or accept the outcome.

Now, if you are arguing against the rule ex ante, that is fine. Coupled entries probably no longer really matter that much as we have seen plenty of occasions when de facto entries run. Concerns should be addressed to the NYS Racing and Wagering Board.


:ThmbUp:

[menifee]

Please just eliminate coupled entries. Kodiak Cowboy would have been 5-1 this past weekend, but you got less than 3-1 because of his entry mate.

I never understood why it takes horse racing so long to change outdated rules....maybe it's because the state plays an active role in managing the industry...

[NY BRED]

Bud:

While I admit TVG brings alot to the table in attracting new fans,
and I do respect the opinions of some of the commentators,
this show has the ability to do "specials" on various
topics, including fan education.

As an example TVG highlighted the careers of various trainers,
horses, and other personalities connected with racing which is great
for old timers and new fans to gain a sense of what this game is
about.

In turn, I feel it would be worthwhile if they offered a "handicapping 101"
show to allow new fans a sense of how to select /handicap races.Thereafter,
they could introduce famous handicappers to offer their viewpoint, which
was done many years ago on the Harvey Pack show.

To my knowledge, this thought should be implemented by Race tracks
on a regular basis to make racing "fan friendly". I believe NYRA attempted
this several times, but I'm simply recommend it be tried on a regular
basis to educate novices and even experienced handicapper.

One huge perk being offered by NYRA is the Andy Sirling show which
reviews trips of horses in previous races which allows any handicapper
the potential of following a horse in future races and potentially "score"
as a result of a poor trip in a previous race, which could be beneficial
to the you and any experienced fan.Plug this horse into a virtual stable
(via Equibase), and you'll be adding a new dimension to your experience
in this game.

Best regards..

[Relwob Owner]

Please just eliminate coupled entries. Kodiak Cowboy would have been 5-1 this past weekend, but you got less than 3-1 because of his entry mate.

I never understood why it takes horse racing so long to change outdated rules....maybe it's because the state plays an active role in managing the industry...


:ThmbUp:

[Valuist]

Question for you....what do you say to the side of the argument that says that the rule protects you if the part of your entry is scratched that you like---so, you love the 1, dont like the 1A and then the 1 scratches, leaving you with a horse you dont like.....doesnt thie rule protect you as a bettor from being stuck with the one you dont like?

If I'm at the track or an OTB, I try to cancel the ticket. I can't remember the last time it happened to me on a NY race.

As for TVG, I think the problem many of us have with them is the constant peddling of picks, and then the total lack of accountability. Compare it to HRTV and there's no comparison. You'll get good insights from a guy like Jeff Siegal but there's no "in your face" type selections. Everyone has to learn to make their own selections; nobody cares who Simon or Frank likes. BTW, Lyons is an insufferable ass.

[Valuist]

Please just eliminate coupled entries. Kodiak Cowboy would have been 5-1 this past weekend, but you got less than 3-1 because of his entry mate.

I never understood why it takes horse racing so long to change outdated rules....maybe it's because the state plays an active role in managing the industry...

While I agree with your theory, there's no way Kodiak Cowboy would've been 5-1. Uncoupled, Biker Boy would've been about 10-1; with the entry at 19-10, Kodiak Cowboy would've been about 5-2.

[cj's dad]

If I'm at the track or an OTB, I try to cancel the ticket. I can't remember the last time it happened to me on a NY race.

As for TVG, I think the problem many of us have with them is the constant peddling of picks, and then the total lack of accountability. Compare it to HRTV and there's no comparison. You'll get good insights from a guy like Jeff Siegal but there's no "in your face" type selections. Everyone has to learn to make their own selections; nobody cares who Simon or Frank likes. BTW, Lyons is an insufferable ass.

The underlined section of your post has been the crux of my argument many, many times; therefore why does ANYONE care who any of the TV personalities select ?

Why ? Why ? Why ?

[Relwob Owner]

If I'm at the track or an OTB, I try to cancel the ticket. I can't remember the last time it happened to me on a NY race.

As for TVG, I think the problem many of us have with them is the constant peddling of picks, and then the total lack of accountability. Compare it to HRTV and there's no comparison. You'll get good insights from a guy like Jeff Siegal but there's no "in your face" type selections. Everyone has to learn to make their own selections; nobody cares who Simon or Frank likes. BTW, Lyons is an insufferable ass.



I met Todd, Ken and Simon on my honeymoon and got interviewed on the air with my wife...... they were all amazingly nice and we hung out with them while they were on the air for a bit....a few years later, I saw Todd at the Breeders Cup at Churchill and he recognized my wife and I and remembered our names....I have seen him take some heat for his betting and general knowledge but his enthusiasm for the sport and general kindness make up for all that for me---Funny you brought up Frank....Frank was with him at the Breeders Cup and in my opinion was the exact opposite....saw him a few more times during the day and he got even worse. Just didnt seem nice. I am also amazed they let him on the air sometimes with the "colds" he seems to have from the night before.....

[Valuist]

The underlined section of your post has been the crux of my argument many, many times; therefore why does ANYONE care who any of the TV personalities select ?

Why ? Why ? Why ?

Because the incessant talking and peddling of selections often is at the expense of time that could be spent showing a race live, or in its full version.

[miesque]

I personally was pretty livid the first time I found out about the rule in question because the remaining half of the scratched entry was an easy winner costing me a nice exacta and trifecta payout so in other words, I think it should be changed.

As far as Carothers, while TVG does not keep ROI figures on their hosts/analysts Pick 4s, Pick 6s, etc..., they do keep a running ROI of his picks on Blinkers Off and he finished 2008 with a positive ROI so keep that in mind when you are doing your Matty bashing. I certainly don't agree with all his selections, but I think he does a good job as a host and analyst and he is also a nice guy in person.

Someone mentioned Siegel over at HRTV and I think he is the best of the two networks at analyzing and breaking down a race, particularly the manner in which the analysis is done with replay videos such as with his Siegel Sleepers, he touches on all the pertinent points while the replay video(s) are going without a bunch of attitude, its clear, concise and to the point.

[Valuist]

I personally was pretty livid the first time I found out about the rule in question because the remaining half of the scratched entry was an easy winner costing me a nice exacta and trifecta payout so in other words, I think it should be changed.

As far as Carothers, while TVG does not keep ROI figures on their hosts/analysts Pick 4s, Pick 6s, etc..., they do keep a running ROI of his picks on Blinkers Off and he finished 2008 with a positive ROI so keep that in mind when you are doing your Matty bashing. I certainly don't agree with all his selections, but I think he does a good job as a host and analyst and he is also a nice guy in person.


Someone mentioned Siegel over at HRTV and I think he is the best of the two networks at analyzing and breaking down a race, particularly the manner in which the analysis is done with replay videos such as with his Siegel Sleepers, he touches on all the pertinent points while the replay video(s) are going without a bunch of attitude, its clear, concise and to the point.

I was bashing TVG but not Carruthers in particular. I think he is one of the better ones. He is a bit narcissistic and self-depracating at the same time, which seems like a paradox but seems to work. He at least knows the game from a handicapping perspective and one can tell from his reactions, that he's backing up his selections with real wagers. 58 Flat is clearly based on the Jim Cramer "Mad Money" show and I like Carruthers version better than Cramers.

[PaceAdvantage]

Because the incessant talking and peddling of selections often is at the expense of time that could be spent showing a race live, or in its full version.They exist to get you to wager through their network. They don't exist to show you races so that you can see how your wagers do that were made at OTHER ADWs.

When people begin to understand WHY TVG (the TV network) exists, they will begin to understand why they talk about selections, offer selections, etc. etc.

Do you think TVG (the TV network) could survive on nothing but commercials featuring Billy Mays and his latest and greatest product?

TVG doesn't owe you or me a thing. They are just like any other ADW, except they also happen to run a TV network. If we are betting through TVG, we can watch every single race we wager on through their online video service, just like TwinSpires or YouBet.

The TV network is essentially one giant advertisement for the ADW. In my view, they are a nice little bonus, and if they should ever disappear, we are all going to be worse off for it...

[Tom]

I agree, TVG owes us nothing.
And they always deliver! :D


Sorry Al, but I lasted 40 posts this time! ;)

[onefast99]

Matt has been pointing out that certain trainers use the entry system to their benefit, namely Contessa, Levine and Dutrow. When one part of the entry is a late scratch they could care-less as trainers that the betting public gets shafted, why? Because they still run for the purse money and thats all they care about. Matt also was livid the other day where the 1a scratched late and the 1 went right to the front and never looked back, even the track announcer made reference to the horse running for purse only and not for betting purposes. My issue with this is that if they both run and the 1 interferes with another horse and the entry mate the 1a wins the race the entire entry can be disqualified, where is the logic there?

[OTM Al]

"My issue with this is that if they both run and the 1 interferes with another horse and the entry mate the 1a wins the race the entire entry can be disqualified, where is the logic there?"

I'm not seeing a provision like this in NYS rules. I only see info stating the horse being adjudged to commit the foul be placed below the one he fouled. Thus, the 1A would remain the winner in this example, unless there was proof of other shennanigans. I cannot find a case when exactly this occured in the last 3 1/2 years to prove this though.

[BUD]

There Are Selections Everywhere-----I watch from the twinspire tv---The park has selections The Daily racing form has selections----And TVG gets slamed for having selections------Like someone aske Rich Perloff if he brings the price down with his selection----I almost fell outta my wheelchair as I was just looking at the DRF selection's-----Even those hideous things on the side they write-----Prefer others etc-----I think that influences the flock so much more than TVG--------Maybe its My MS----But I can not keep track of what action they do....


We Do need A Network-----If in this information age we lose the networks----It wont be long ---States will be voting on horse racing just like greyhounds------

These Networks WILL evolve-----It is going to happen----We Are the Game----Its Not UAE.....We fuel the game-----HANA is showing that-------As NY Bred Also said about handicapping 101------These Networks at some point will understand stories like mine and others who found this game------And these Networks have the pulpit to help them along...Be it a half hour show---I know I was quite redundent for that I apologize---For the grammer---I will try to feel better and get a new sp #

be well

[strapper]

Has TVG reduced the roster of talent with the bad economy? I was just wondering....seems like they had a ton of talent when they maybe could've gotten by with less.

[Valuist]

They exist to get you to wager through their network. They don't exist to show you races so that you can see how your wagers do that were made at OTHER ADWs.

When people begin to understand WHY TVG (the TV network) exists, they will begin to understand why they talk about selections, offer selections, etc. etc.

Do you think TVG (the TV network) could survive on nothing but commercials featuring Billy Mays and his latest and greatest product?

TVG doesn't owe you or me a thing. They are just like any other ADW, except they also happen to run a TV network. If we are betting through TVG, we can watch every single race we wager on through their online video service, just like TwinSpires or YouBet.

The TV network is essentially one giant advertisement for the ADW. In my view, they are a nice little bonus, and if they should ever disappear, we are all going to be worse off for it...

I understand your point but their approach still really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If I run an ADW and want people to wager thru it, wouldn't it be in my best interest to show as many live races as possible? And what is the point of live remotes? These detract from showing more races. I see no way how these live remotes stimulate the public to bet more. A guy like Rich Perloff is good for them, because he is knowledgable and often explains his selections. But most of the hosts don't. Carruthers often does also but a guy like Lyons just has his selections up there....no rationale. Newbies would learn nothing from a guy like him. HRTV is owned by CDI and Magna and they clearly have an interest in having their viewers wager as much as possible but their approach seems more professional.