IEAH , good or bad?

[supercap]

I was reading where they want to buy I want Revenge. Now that Patena has flopped and they might miss the big show they are in desparation mode to get to a derby horse! I guess we will have to hear Iavarone on derby day tell us how they all gathered and looked at the horse and madr the decision to buy him, based of course on their knowledge of horses. Big Browns purchase at least had some risk, a maiden win to his credit , but at least some risk. Maybe Iavarone should just wait till post time and try and buy the favorite!!

[magwell]

Maybe they will get some bailout money because they are to big to fail and then they can buy all the contenders, sounds familiar.......:rolleyes:

[Sunday.Silence]

BAD as they get

[rjorio]

If IEAH were a sport,they would be professional wrestling. Phoney as can be.

[Doc]

If IEAH were a sport,they would be professional wrestling. Phoney as can be.

I agree. I keep waiting for them to implode ... or have one of their "investors" sue them for fiscal mismanagement.

[onefast99]

I agree. I keep waiting for them to implode ... or have one of their "investors" sue them for fiscal mismanagement.
Last year was as good as it gets and to duplicate that would be close to impossible.

[supercap]

Maybe they will get some bailout money because they are to big to fail and then they can buy all the contenders, sounds familiar.......:rolleyes:
Like spoiled babies not getting their way. I wanna go to the derby mommy! :bang:

[Relwob Owner]

I was reading where they want to buy I want Revenge. Now that Patena has flopped and they might miss the big show they are in desparation mode to get to a derby horse! I guess we will have to hear Iavarone on derby day tell us how they all gathered and looked at the horse and madr the decision to buy him, based of course on their knowledge of horses. Big Browns purchase at least had some risk, a maiden win to his credit , but at least some risk. Maybe Iavarone should just wait till post time and try and buy the favorite!!


Bad, Bad, Bad.....I was embarrassed when they became the faces of horse racing through the Triple Crown run last year......they must have so many skeletons in their collective closets and anyone investing with them should have their heads examined. Good news is that they may not be around long with some of the purchases they have made.....

[sonnyp]

the qauestion should be, "whats worse, IEAH or the arabs ?" These two are the only real factions in ownership today.

bad as IEAH is, and they are very bad, at least the stock stays here.

[Relwob Owner]

the qauestion should be, "whats worse, IEAH or the arabs ?" These two are the only real factions in ownership today.

bad as IEAH is, and they are very bad, at least the stock stays here.


Pretty good point....I am surprised that people arent saying more about how many horses are getting bought up and taken away recently....

[nijinski]

Pretty good point....I am surprised that people arent saying more about how many horses are getting bought up and taken away recently....
Totally agree we need some American buyers.We have really sold out here.

Regarding IEAH ,this is horseracing,since when did we become so prudent.
We are inundated via the net with all the evil dealings of this group and
with Dutrow.I can't believe horse racings historic owners were all Polyannas
in the real world people we deal with day in and out have their skeletins.
I hold Affirmed and connsctions in high regard for their participation ,the
owner had his history and he paid for it.
I really think these guys adore Big Brown I admired that.When it's proven
they have committed horrible crimes ,that's another story.
If any of their horses ever end up like Alydar ,that's a whole other story.

[slewis]

Anyone on PA who has read my posts knows I dont pull punches.

I've met some of the IEAH people, but Im not friendly enough where I would have a problem hammering their group if I thought it was called for.

I'm detecting a big time dose of jealousy here. These guys have done a terrific job and have taken enormous risk. It has NOT been one way traffic either. 4 or 5 yrs ago, they made a lot of bad, expensive decisions. NOw they acquire many many good runners.

If anyone thinks it's easy, trust me, it's not. Those on this forum that are in the game, you know that.
Those who are just bettors, I doubt you have a clue. Race horses are not like other commodities. You must pay up, way over "true business value" when you buy a horse. It's the nature of the business. The risks are enormous. When you buy a horse like Big Brown, you cant even really insure him..Mortality only.
If he bows a tendon, or blows a knee prior to winning the Derby, you're investment is history, and trust me, there's usually a lot more bad luck then good.

As far as their creditibility goes in the business world, I'll say this:
After seeing what has taken place with the banks, what we know about Big Oil, and what really makes business in this country tick, these guys aren't doing anything differently most business people do, just probably on a smaller level.

[sonnyp]

"As far as their creditibility goes in the business world, I'll say this:
After seeing what has taken place with the banks, what we know about Big Oil, and what really makes business in this country tick, these guys aren't doing anything differently most business people do, just probably on a smaller level."


yes, they are what big business and, unfortunately, this country has become. throw in the rest of professional sports also. we've become a society transfixed with the profit. all behavior is justified by the bottom line. recent events in the financial world make those endeavors particularly ugly.

"where have you gone joe dimaggio? our nation turns its lonely eyes to you."
im sure those on this board that love the game never look at it , only, from the business point of view. how could they ? the vast majority of those involved on any level lose money. those who really love the game think of it with a touch of romance and, although they are aware of the financial ramifications, the bottom line is not the god they worship.

i dont believe the negetivity IEAH generates comes from jealousy but,rather, from a contempt for the manner in which IEAH conducts itself and manipulates people and situations. i believe we are all getting weary of the "spin". we get enough of that from wall street and washington. we're not looking for that from the " poster children" of the backstretch.

they bought patena for a lot of money. could be a bust. they bought the 2 year old filly whose stock has certainly dropped. they're still ahead of the game, but they're treading water.

if they start to sink, don't look for people to line up to throw life preservers.

[PaceAdvantage]

Anyone on PA who has read my posts knows I dont pull punches.

I've met some of the IEAH people, but Im not friendly enough where I would have a problem hammering their group if I thought it was called for.

I'm detecting a big time dose of jealousy here. These guys have done a terrific job and have taken enormous risk. It has NOT been one way traffic either. 4 or 5 yrs ago, they made a lot of bad, expensive decisions. NOw they acquire many many good runners.

If anyone thinks it's easy, trust me, it's not. Those on this forum that are in the game, you know that.
Those who are just bettors, I doubt you have a clue. Race horses are not like other commodities. You must pay up, way over "true business value" when you buy a horse. It's the nature of the business. The risks are enormous. When you buy a horse like Big Brown, you cant even really insure him..Mortality only.
If he bows a tendon, or blows a knee prior to winning the Derby, you're investment is history, and trust me, there's usually a lot more bad luck then good.

As far as their creditibility goes in the business world, I'll say this:
After seeing what has taken place with the banks, what we know about Big Oil, and what really makes business in this country tick, these guys aren't doing anything differently most business people do, just probably on a smaller level.Hear hear! I was just about to post a similar sentiment, but you just saved me a lot of typing.

Two reasons why these guys are getting bashed up:

a) They are from NY and they "talk funny."
b) Dutrow is their trainer.

[supercap]

Hear hear! I was just about to post a similar sentiment, but you just saved me a lot of typing.

Two reasons why these guys are getting bashed up:

a) They are from NY and they "talk funny."
b) Dutrow is their trainer.

Maybe we just dont like them period!

[supercap]

Anyone on PA who has read my posts knows I dont pull punches.

I've met some of the IEAH people, but Im not friendly enough where I would have a problem hammering their group if I thought it was called for.

I'm detecting a big time dose of jealousy here. These guys have done a terrific job and have taken enormous risk. It has NOT been one way traffic either. 4 or 5 yrs ago, they made a lot of bad, expensive decisions. NOw they acquire many many good runners.

If anyone thinks it's easy, trust me, it's not. Those on this forum that are in the game, you know that.
Those who are just bettors, I doubt you have a clue. Race horses are not like other commodities. You must pay up, way over "true business value" when you buy a horse. It's the nature of the business. The risks are enormous. When you buy a horse like Big Brown, you cant even really insure him..Mortality only.
If he bows a tendon, or blows a knee prior to winning the Derby, you're investment is history, and trust me, there's usually a lot more bad luck then good.

As far as their creditibility goes in the business world, I'll say this:
After seeing what has taken place with the banks, what we know about Big Oil, and what really makes business in this country tick, these guys aren't doing anything differently most business people do, just probably on a smaller level.

We know all this crap. Just taints the game when you can go buy the big fish every year. At least the arabs show up and spend at the sales , Ieah could care less about babies.

[Relwob Owner]

Hear hear! I was just about to post a similar sentiment, but you just saved me a lot of typing.

Two reasons why these guys are getting bashed up:

a) They are from NY and they "talk funny."
b) Dutrow is their trainer.


From my point of view, how they talk has nothing to do with it, nor does the fact that they use Dutrow. I just dont think that they reflect well on Horse Racing. They are an headed by a guy with a well documented shady past and I have seen first hand how they conduct themselves at the races and it is not classy at all.....am I jealous of them? Hell yes-they are doing what I wish I could do in the best sport in the world.....doesnt make me not like them, though.


That being said, they pump a lot of money in, which is good and at the very least, bring some excitement and a somewhat younger demographic to the sport.

What I find striking is that their business model is so flawed and I do not think they will be able to make it. They got incredibly lucky with Big Brown and what they sold his breeding rights for....they benefited from an overzealous kid from Three Chimneys trying to make a splash. Other than that and Kip Deville, there hasnt been a ton of success in their purchases. This spring, I have seen a ton of mediocre horses owned by them performing poorly.

It is a basic business principle to buy low and sell high. They seem to be getting desperate, as can be seen with potentially purchasing I Want Revenge, who they are buying at the top of his value. It seems as if they are so desperate to have a horse in the Derby that they are making an emotional purchase just to get in. If they keep doing this, they arent going to make it long term.

[toussaud]

We know all this crap. Just taints the game when you can go buy the big fish every year. At least the arabs show up and spend at the sales , Ieah could care less about babies.
how?

[supercap]

how?

The first story you will hear if I Want Revenge wins the derby will be how ieah purchased him after his last win. I would think the public would like to hear how an 80 year old woman wins the derby, or some other human intertest story. When iavarone gets on tv and says we bought him for 3 million do you think that attracts people to the game? Just looking to add some reality to the game. Is it really that tough to buy a derby horse 6 weeks before the race. It becomes a matter of who has more money rather than breeding , developing and training. No human interest!

[slewis]

Hear hear! I was just about to post a similar sentiment, but you just saved me a lot of typing.

Two reasons why these guys are getting bashed up:

a) They are from NY and they "talk funny."
b) Dutrow is their trainer.


PA,

I was discussing a similar issue the other day with a friend who's in the game and I said to him: "The public and racing press talks about Dutrow and his antics and steroid use and alleged cheating". "I never hear anyone mention the name Larry Jones". This guy in the last few years has almost made Dutrow look like a rank amateur." Fillies, colts, they ALL run huge for this guy.
Good ole boy accent and all.....
I just haven't figured (out) why the Phipps's haven't fired Shug and hired Larry!
What a "horseman".

[slewis]

The first story you will hear if I Want Revenge wins the derby will be how ieah purchased him after his last win. I would think the public would like to hear how an 80 year old woman wins the derby, or some other human intertest story. When iavarone gets on tv and says we bought him for 3 million do you think that attracts people to the game? Just looking to add some reality to the game. Is it really that tough to buy a derby horse 6 weeks before the race. It becomes a matter of who has more money rather than breeding , developing and training. No human interest!


Dont you worry supercap,

Most of those in this game that do the SERIOUS breeding and developing, could buy and sell IEAH on a casual dark day at Calder.

Yeah, I like the human interest stories too, like when Nick Zito busted his ass training and whipped Smarty Jones in the Belmont only to have his "eighty-yr old" (Mary Lou you know who)crying on national TV that she was sorry that her Birdstone whipped Smarty Jones because "she loved Smarty Jones".
Makes one's eyes all waterey.:lol:

[supercap]

Dont you worry supercap,

Most of those in this game that do the SERIOUS breeding and developing, could buy and sell IEAH on a casual dark day at Calder.

Yeah, I like the human interest stories too, like when Nick Zito busted his ass training and whipped Smarty Jones in the Belmont only to have his "eighty-yr old" crying on national TV that she was sorry that her Birdstone whipped Smarty Jones because "she loved Smarty Jones".
Makes one's eyes all waterey.:lol:
I was referring to Unbridled winning the derby, that Whitney chick is a little to creepy for me!

[slewis]

We know all this crap. Just taints the game when you can go buy the big fish every year. At least the arabs show up and spend at the sales , Ieah could care less about babies.

Because it's how they play the game.... do YOU have the magic formula?

Do the arabs???

They are playing it very very well...and you're jealous.

[slewis]

From my point of view, how they talk has nothing to do with it, nor does the fact that they use Dutrow. I just dont think that they reflect well on Horse Racing. They are an headed by a guy with a well documented shady past and I have seen first hand how they conduct themselves at the races and it is not classy at all.....am I jealous of them? Hell yes-they are doing what I wish I could do in the best sport in the world.....doesnt make me not like them, though.


That being said, they pump a lot of money in, which is good and at the very least, bring some excitement and a somewhat younger demographic to the sport.

What I find striking is that their business model is so flawed and I do not think they will be able to make it. They got incredibly lucky with Big Brown and what they sold his breeding rights for....they benefited from an overzealous kid from Three Chimneys trying to make a splash. Other than that and Kip Deville, there hasnt been a ton of success in their purchases. This spring, I have seen a ton of mediocre horses owned by them performing poorly.

It is a basic business principle to buy low and sell high. They seem to be getting desperate, as can be seen with potentially purchasing I Want Revenge, who they are buying at the top of his value. It seems as if they are so desperate to have a horse in the Derby that they are making an emotional purchase just to get in. If they keep doing this, they arent going to make it long term.

Relwob,

Im surprised at you.
EVERYONE"S ,and I mean everyone's business model in this game "is flawed" because to "buy and race" will eventually catch up with the smartest in this sport.
When I do advisory consulting I tell investor's the following:
Run this like a business (or try to), just dont expect returns like you would a business. If you break out even after 1, 2, 3, 5yrs, you're a BIG winner.
By the way, you left Court Vision out of your "short list" of successes
I could think of more too if you give me time.

[Relwob Owner]

Because it's how they play the game.... do YOU have the magic formula?

Do the arabs???

They are playing it very very well...and you're jealous.


You say they are doing it well but I would question that.....they have bought a ton of horses and have had two main ones (BB and Kip Deville) that have done very well....however, you dont hear as much about their misses. Purchasing horses right before the Derby is even more risky than normal because their value will be at an all time high.

Their long term success will tell the tale. From a business perspective, i think investors will quickly grow tired of them? Why? Because of how they are set up....I believe that each horse is a separate entity and investment....as a result, people who arent in on the successful ones will get pissed and disenchanted and trouble will ensue.

One other issue is experience and know how....Many of the other horse racing partnerships are headed by veterans of the business....IEAH is not and I think that will hurt and Iavarone will end up as another Dan Snyder....

As far as people claiming they are inscrupulous, I will say this and expect a bunch of heat from the "prove it camp" on this forum and when I do get the heat, i want them to dispute these two things:

1. Their head guy has been busted for his stock trading practices in the past.
2. Their main trainer has been caught using drugs.

As a result, you cant blame anyone for being suspicious.....if it looks like a duck and acts like a duck.....

[Relwob Owner]

Relwob,

Im surprised at you.
EVERYONE"S ,and I mean everyone's business model in this game "is flawed" because to "buy and race" will eventually catch up with the smartest in this sport.
When I do advisory consulting I tell investor's the following:
Run this like a business (or try to), just dont expect returns like you would a business. If you break out even after 1, 2, 3, 5yrs, you're a BIG winner.
By the way, you left Court Vision out of your "short list" of successes
I could think of more too if you give me time.


Right but buying when the value is at its highest is not smart....buying when they bought Big Brown is.....as far as Court Vision goes, I want to say they paid pover 5 million for that horse before the Triple Crown and I dont think he has fufilled expectations, has he? Good wins but for that amount of scratch, you would expect more, wouldnt you?

We both know that it is almost impossible to win---I guess what is frustrating about these guys is they project the notion that you can.....and we also both know that you can tell people til you are blue in the face they wont make money but when they dont, people inevitably get pissed

[Relwob Owner]

Relwob,

Im surprised at you.
EVERYONE"S ,and I mean everyone's business model in this game "is flawed" because to "buy and race" will eventually catch up with the smartest in this sport.
When I do advisory consulting I tell investor's the following:
Run this like a business (or try to), just dont expect returns like you would a business. If you break out even after 1, 2, 3, 5yrs, you're a BIG winner.
By the way, you left Court Vision out of your "short list" of successes
I could think of more too if you give me time.


I just checked and IEAH paid 5 million for a half interest in Court Vision.....ypou would consider this a success???????? Now, im surprised at you:)

[Quagmire]

Benny The Bull was one of IEAH's better purchases.

[W2G]

The IEAHs and Sheikh Mohammeds of the racing world don't bother me. On balance I would say they are clearly good for racing. No one is forcing anyone to sell their TC candidates. And you'd have to assume that Patena's original owners are happy with IEAH. I've even begun to root for the Sheikh to get his Derby "his way" -- it's inevitable that he will eventually, maybe sooner than later. IEAH's staying power is another story, it does seem like after last year they may have a "Midas touch" complex. But it's game of highs and lows, could be this year every animal they touch (or buy) goes south on them.

[slewis]

I just checked and IEAH paid 5 million for a half interest in Court Vision.....ypou would consider this a success???????? Now, im surprised at you:)


Relwob,

For the 1 millionth time..... If it were about the money, there would be NO GAME.
When D Wayne Lucas was buying horses for Lewis and carving him up..Lewis said to him (Im quoting D. Wayne) "D. Wayne, Ive made my money in life, my family is well taken care of, I want to win, get us there."

In the case of Court Vision, they provided Graded victory status for their investors for a high price... so let me put it this way:

At a two-yr old sale, If I could announce with a horse that "this horse is for sale for 10 million (with Court Vision pedigree) and he WILL win and place in Graded races and he vets out and if he does not I will refund your money".

Do you think someone would buy?? You betcha.
When they bought a piece of this horse, he was a triple crown contender. You're dealing with WinStar. They are not stupid. (I dont think they're all that either, but that's not the issue). They put a high price on his head and IEAH bit. They were looking the smarter of the two (as in most seller transactions in this game) but now this is a wash, case closed. With breeding and future earnings, IEAH will probably win this bout.

[slewis]

Benny The Bull was one of IEAH's better purchases.

Thanks, add him to the list... there are more...

[supercap]

Because it's how they play the game.... do YOU have the magic formula?

Do the arabs???

They are playing it very very well...and you're jealous.
Dont have a jealous bone in my body. If I did, it would certainly be of someone with more class and dignity than this bunch. I know it is how they play the game , remember I started this thread. Just asking if it is good for the game.

[Relwob Owner]

Relwob,

For the 1 millionth time..... If it were about the money, there would be NO GAME.
When D Wayne Lucas was buying horses for Lewis and carving him up..Lewis said to him (Im quoting D. Wayne) "D. Wayne, Ive made my money in life, my family is well taken care of, I want to win, get us there."

In the case of Court Vision, they provided Graded victory status for their investors for a high price... so let me put it this way:

At a two-yr old sale, If I could announce with a horse that "this horse is for sale for 10 million (with Court Vision pedigree) and he WILL win and place in Graded races and he vets out and if he does not I will refund your money".

Do you think someone would buy?? You betcha.
When they bought a piece of this horse, he was a triple crown contender. You're dealing with WinStar. They are not stupid. (I dont think they're all that either, but that's not the issue). They put a high price on his head and IEAH bit. They were looking the smarter of the two (as in most seller transactions in this game) but now this is a wash, case closed. With breeding and future earnings, IEAH will probably win this bout.


Slewis,

Again, you and I are on the same page but you take issue with my posts anyways....you and I both know it is almost impossible to make money....however, I was responding to a post that IEAH is good at the game, which they arent as far as I tell.....google every horse that they have purchased and own and you will be amazed at how many bad horses they are involved with.....

Court Vision better be a great breeding play for them to come out even.....

[magwell]

The bottom line of this game proves its "the toughest game played outdoors" it will humble anyone. Its true most of us would like to play the game on the level of IEAH but cant afford it. I'm pulling for anyone that steps up and has the balls to try and beat this game, because the downs are a lot lower then the highs are high.

[slewis]

Slewis,

Again, you and I are on the same page but you take issue with my posts anyways....you and I both know it is almost impossible to make money....however, I was responding to a post that IEAH is good at the game, which they arent as far as I tell.....google every horse that they have purchased and own and you will be amazed at how many bad horses they are involved with.....

Court Vision better be a great breeding play for them to come out even.....

Well.. "take issue" is a bit strong... intelligently debate is a more accurate description. Have you noticed though how many non-horseowners have gotten quiet on the thread.
That's what WE can hopefully enlighten them with... an "insider" view.
One thing we have ALWAYS agreed on, getting horses to the very starting gate that they bet their hard earned money on... is quite an adventure.
(Tell them what it takes, and how long it takes, to go through the breeding-foaling-breaking-training stage just to POSSIBLY get to the starting gate)
thanks again.

[DanG]

The bottom line of this game proves its "the toughest game played outdoors" it will humble anyone. Its true most of us would like to play the game on the level of IEAH but cant afford it. I'm pulling for anyone that steps up and has the balls to try and beat this game, because the downs are a lot lower then the highs are high.
Well said Mag’s;

God bless anyone who is willing to risk their fortune for the show we gamble on.

We like to think its us; but owners are the life blood of our game. :ThmbUp:

[Quagmire]

I don't know many owners who would not return a call from IEAH.

[Relwob Owner]

I don't know many owners who would not return a call from IEAH.



I would in a heartbeat.....kind of like when the Washington Redskins or the Los Anegeles Clippers call looking for a trade.......

[Relwob Owner]

Thanks, add him to the list... there are more...



Like what?......what did they buy BTB for and how much has he made?

Of course they are going to have some good buys but there are a ton of bad buys....


Also, I have heard mention that IEAH will make money on breeding.....timing wise, has there ever been a worse time to rely on breeding money?

[Relwob Owner]

Well said Mag’s;

God bless anyone who is willing to risk their fortune for the show we gamble on.

We like to think its us; but owners are the life blood of our game. :ThmbUp:


I definitely agree with that----remember, though, that much of it isnt Iavarone's money-he just raises it-so, balls wise, the main thing he risks is answering to people who have lost their money and guys like him dont seem to worry about that

[Relwob Owner]

Well.. "take issue" is a bit strong... intelligently debate is a more accurate description. Have you noticed though how many non-horseowners have gotten quiet on the thread.
That's what WE can hopefully enlighten them with... an "insider" view.
One thing we have ALWAYS agreed on, getting horses to the very starting gate that they bet their hard earned money on... is quite an adventure.
(Tell them what it takes, and how long it takes, to go through the breeding-foaling-breaking-training stage just to POSSIBLY get to the starting gate)
thanks again.


Didnt mean to be strong....damn this email stuff and how it skews things:):)

I guess that is one of the things about the IEAH guys that turns me off, having been in the game for a while---I really dont think they know or get how hard it is and I am not sure they give the game the respect it deserves....not an accusation, just a hunch.

their model is to let others do the hard work and get the horses to the track and running well and then buy....I dont know how well they will do long term but it does seem a little bit heartless to me, but that is just how I view things....regardless, always a pleasant debate with you:)

[DanG]

I definitely agree with that----remember, though, that much of it isnt Iavarone's money-he just raises it-so, balls wise, the main thing he risks is answering to people who have lost their money and guys like him dont seem to worry about that
Fair point;

There is a case to made however that his role is actually more important then the individual owners themselves. It’s hard to put a number on how many new players multi-horse partnerships bring into our game that would otherwise never dreamed of participating.

Looking at a West-Point winners circle for example I sometimes think they represent ½ the live attendance at some tracks…lol

[Relwob Owner]

Fair point;

There is a case to made however that his role is actually more important then the individual owners themselves. It’s hard to put a number on how many new players multi-horse partnerships bring into our game that would otherwise never dreamed of participating.

Looking at a West-Point winners circle for example I sometimes think they represent ½ the live attendance at some tracks…lol


Agreed---I would say his role is definitely more important which I think for the actual owners is scary given his lack of experience and questionable background......I guess there are a million sides to the argument-at least they have us talking!

[slewis]

Didnt mean to be strong....damn this email stuff and how it skews things:):)

I guess that is one of the things about the IEAH guys that turns me off, having been in the game for a while---I really dont think they know or get how hard it is and I am not sure they give the game the respect it deserves....not an accusation, just a hunch.

their model is to let others do the hard work and get the horses to the track and running well and then buy....I dont know how well they will do long term but it does seem a little bit heartless to me, but that is just how I view things....regardless, always a pleasant debate with you:)

Precisely... but I doubt Donald Trump ever spackled a wall, welded a joint, or drove a rivet either.... but he's put up a successful building or two.

[Relwob Owner]

Precisely... but I doubt Donald Trump ever spackled a wall, welded a joint, or drove a rivet either.... but he's put up a successful building or two.



he has also gone bankrupt a time or two and i would not trust him with anything....he is a master salesman and screams about his victories and keeps silent about his defeats....he has also cost investors a ton of money along the way and hid behind his LLC's....thus, your comparison is right on the money

[supercap]

Anyone on PA who has read my posts knows I dont pull punches.

I've met some of the IEAH people, but Im not friendly enough where I would have a problem hammering their group if I thought it was called for.

I'm detecting a big time dose of jealousy here. These guys have done a terrific job and have taken enormous risk. It has NOT been one way traffic either. 4 or 5 yrs ago, they made a lot of bad, expensive decisions. NOw they acquire many many good runners.

If anyone thinks it's easy, trust me, it's not. Those on this forum that are in the game, you know that.
Those who are just bettors, I doubt you have a clue. Race horses are not like other commodities. You must pay up, way over "true business value" when you buy a horse. It's the nature of the business. The risks are enormous. When you buy a horse like Big Brown, you cant even really insure him..Mortality only.
If he bows a tendon, or blows a knee prior to winning the Derby, you're investment is history, and trust me, there's usually a lot more bad luck then good.

As far as their creditibility goes in the business world, I'll say this:
After seeing what has taken place with the banks, what we know about Big Oil, and what really makes business in this country tick, these guys aren't doing anything differently most business people do, just probably on a smaller level.

Hey Slewis, why dont you start every post with your portfolio . This way you dont have to bash all the clueless non owners. Fact of the matter is 95% of horseowners lose money. So who really is clueless? I have owned many horses good and bad, it really is not rocket science , more luck than anything so lets not get to hyped up on this ownership knowledge bs.

[PaceAdvantage]

I would think the public would like to hear how an 80 year old woman wins the derby, or some other human intertest story.Not me. Nafzger ruined that for me after they replayed that scene 50,000 times two years ago.

Give me more of Dutrow speaking his mind. Now THAT was entertainment, and something I think the public secretly enjoys.

BTW, is IEAH the first bunch of folks to purchase a KD contender a month or two out from the big dance?

How many times did Sid and Jenny do this back in the day?

[supercap]

Not me. Nafzger ruined that for me after they replayed that scene 50,000 times two years ago.

Give me more of Dutrow speaking his mind. Now THAT was entertainment, and something I think the public secretly enjoys.

BTW, is IEAH the first bunch of folks to purchase a KD contender a month or two out from the big dance?

How many times did Sid and Jenny do this back in the day?

To each his own! War Emblem as well. Did not like it then, dont like it now. I am with you on the Nafzger phony bs, but Mrs Genter was a pleasure to see win. How about back in the day with the MC Hammer crew! I am sure the bluebloods in Kentucky were cringing when Lite lite crossed the line first! They had a real circus in the winners circle that was as good as it gets.

[Relwob Owner]

Not me. Nafzger ruined that for me after they replayed that scene 50,000 times two years ago.

Give me more of Dutrow speaking his mind. Now THAT was entertainment, and something I think the public secretly enjoys.

BTW, is IEAH the first bunch of folks to purchase a KD contender a month or two out from the big dance?

How many times did Sid and Jenny do this back in the day?


Now what exactly was entertaining about Dutrow speaking his mind? Talking trash about his horse and talking poorly about past horses? Yeah, that was a hoot--it was just classless, in my opinion. Just saying "Babe" a lot doesnt really do it for me. More people should "speak their minds" about his multiple drug infractions and how he stays in the game.

He got what he deserved when Big Brown embarrassed himself in the Belmont, shoe or no shoe.....

[slewis]

Hey Slewis, why dont you start every post with your portfolio . This way you dont have to bash all the clueless non owners. Fact of the matter is 95% of horseowners lose money. So who really is clueless? I have owned many horses good and bad, it really is not rocket science , more luck than anything so lets not get to hyped up on this ownership knowledge bs.

Hey Super,

What part of this post offended you? I said nothing to offend you directly.
My suggestion was that those who knock the way IEAH is "buying a derby starter" are clueless in this context, not in general.
My reasons for using the term "clueless" are because the risks are enormous.
Ask any trainer who gets to the barn at 5AM only to find his best horse's rear left ankle looks like a grapefruit after kicking the wall at night because something was buggin him. Stupid things like this that happen all the time.
BTW, it's closer to 98% that lose money, but gamblers could care less, but frankly, I dont blame him.

The money they put through the windows annually might be greater on a comparative percentage of net worth basis then those spending millions and millions on yearlings and at the sales.
This is a point Ive argued as to why the bettors should have a bigger say in the sport, but guys like Phipps and Janney control it with wealth and influence.

My point here is that you have basically 3 types of people on this wonderful forum.
1) Gamblers only
2) Owners and horseman only (I know some that dont bet)
3) BOTH.

I just try to shed a light on racing for those who only gamble and might not know the realities of the other end...Im their blue collar guy. I'll tell it the way it is so they'll know the reality. Am I right all the time? No... but Im open to debate.
Every horse I've ever bought or been involved with has not had success, far from it. I'm far from immune from the disappointments of this game. BUT !!!!!!!!!!!
Mostly luck ?..... No f--in' way.... Mostly hard work.... simple as that.
If you think what the IEAH people are doing is more luck then "rocket science", we agree to disagree. I think the opposite. I had an ex-client/partner who thought he was coming into this game with his successful business knowledge, his 100 million dollar net worth, and a big ego because he thought my "knowledge" was mostly luck. He's out of the game, a few million poorer and has a few maiden claiming wins to show for it.
I will point to you and others, that IEAH is not just Ivarone and one or two others.
They have a team of very experienced and qualified people working for them full time. Guys like Mike Scherack, who was a young upcoming public handicapper for the DRF, who knows his sh*t.
So for all you gamblers-only out there who have read Supercaps take on success in this sport, and my opinion of what it takes to MAYBE beat it,
feel free to to post your opinion. I'm pretty comfortable with mine.

[cj]

... but gamblers could care less...

It is "could NOT care less"...Andy will be proud of me.

[DrugS]

I just try to shed a light on racing for those who only gamble and might not know the realities of the other end...Im their blue collar guy.

:jump:

[tribecaagent]

Benny The Bull was one of IEAH's better purchases.

So was A One Rocket....;)

[onefast99]

:jump:
I guess everyone needs a blue collar guy on their team every once in a while. But back to the horses, IEAH has a solid group of investors they were given a taste of the very best early on, their future success or failure falls directly on the shoulders of Mr Ivarone. He is the self-appointed leader of this group. They aren't stupid businessman. They already proved that by winning the first 2 legs of the Triple Crown. They unloaded BB to a solid breeding outfit. They bought several other big ticket horses none of which will go to the Derby. They want to be seen and heard, its part of the show. Yes some may be envious and others laugh at their style. But many who have tried to go down the same road have failed miserably. Give credit where credit is due, they have the means to buy anything they want. They were able to get the management at Monmouth Park to name a race for them, The Monmouth Stakes, they billed it as a Breeders Cup prep race and it brought some decent competition. They closed the turf course during the week to make sure it was in perfect shape for this race. It was run on a Saturday in the middle of September, a good crowd watched BB hit the wire 1st. Why such a following? because previous to that BB electrified the crowd on Haskell Day by coming from behind to take that race. Like them or hate them, they gave us all a thrill based on a horse they bought at what seemed a decent price and ended up making a very nice profit on him.

[toussaud]

to the guy who says that if it were about money ther would be no game:

you can't pick and chose when you want to defend what. Meaning, Had IEAH got a group of guys together and said hey, we've made money, let's have some fun, let's try to get to the highest pinnacle of racing, no holes barred. that would be one thing.

but, these are the people who want to start a horse racing hedge fund, woh want to bundle horses together like wall street b undled together high risk mortages and thinking that the avgs will produce a profit for the investor.

so, you can't have it both ways. you can't want to do that, then when you lose money, say well everyone else loses money. that is not the pretence IEAH got in business for.

hell, look at the NAME. International Equine Aqusititions and Holdings. That does not sound like for the love of the game investment to me. they are clearly out to make a profit, so if that is the case, with it p ut in that context, is paying 5 mil for half of court vision a smart investment?

[supercap]

Hey Super,

What part of this post offended you? I said nothing to offend you directly.
My suggestion was that those who knock the way IEAH is "buying a derby starter" are clueless in this context, not in general.
My reasons for using the term "clueless" are because the risks are enormous.
Ask any trainer who gets to the barn at 5AM only to find his best horse's rear left ankle looks like a grapefruit after kicking the wall at night because something was buggin him. Stupid things like this that happen all the time.
BTW, it's closer to 98% that lose money, but gamblers could care less, but frankly, I dont blame him.

The money they put through the windows annually might be greater on a comparative percentage of net worth basis then those spending millions and millions on yearlings and at the sales.
This is a point Ive argued as to why the bettors should have a bigger say in the sport, but guys like Phipps and Janney control it with wealth and influence.

My point here is that you have basically 3 types of people on this wonderful forum.
1) Gamblers only
2) Owners and horseman only (I know some that dont bet)
3) BOTH.

I just try to shed a light on racing for those who only gamble and might not know the realities of the other end...Im their blue collar guy. I'll tell it the way it is so they'll know the reality. Am I right all the time? No... but Im open to debate.
Every horse I've ever bought or been involved with has not had success, far from it. I'm far from immune from the disappointments of this game. BUT !!!!!!!!!!!
Mostly luck ?..... No f--in' way.... Mostly hard work.... simple as that.
If you think what the IEAH people are doing is more luck then "rocket science", we agree to disagree. I think the opposite. I had an ex-client/partner who thought he was coming into this game with his successful business knowledge, his 100 million dollar net worth, and a big ego because he thought my "knowledge" was mostly luck. He's out of the game, a few million poorer and has a few maiden claiming wins to show for it.
I will point to you and others, that IEAH is not just Ivarone and one or two others.
They have a team of very experienced and qualified people working for them full time. Guys like Mike Scherack, who was a young upcoming public handicapper for the DRF, who knows his sh*t.
So for all you gamblers-only out there who have read Supercaps take on success in this sport, and my opinion of what it takes to MAYBE beat it,
feel free to to post your opinion. I'm pretty comfortable with mine.

You can have all the knowledge and hard work in the world and never have a derby winner.,How do you explain that? How many have you had?
When Whittingham bought Sunday Silence back because he could not meet his reserve , was that knowledge or luck? You can have all the talent you want on your team, can they tell you what kind of heart the horse has? IMO probably the biggest factor of all and there is no way of telling. Tell me how do you gauge what kind of heart a horse has? Maybe Mike Scherak can clue us all in.And please dont tell me breeding gives you the answer, because I will site a million obscure animals who became champions not because of breeding but their will to win which NOBODY can gauge.

[JWBurnie]

Benny the Bull.

IEAH bought in after his 9th start (No Graded Stakes), 9 starts 4 wins. Ran seven times after (all graded), 7 starts 4 wins. The wins were his last four starts.

Previous trainer - Jeff Talley
Trainer for last seven - Dutrow

[onefast99]

to the guy who says that if it were about money ther would be no game:

you can't pick and chose when you want to defend what. Meaning, Had IEAH got a group of guys together and said hey, we've made money, let's have some fun, let's try to get to the highest pinnacle of racing, no holes barred. that would be one thing.

but, these are the people who want to start a horse racing hedge fund, woh want to bundle horses together like wall street b undled together high risk mortages and thinking that the avgs will produce a profit for the investor.

so, you can't have it both ways. you can't want to do that, then when you lose money, say well everyone else loses money. that is not the pretence IEAH got in business for.

hell, look at the NAME. International Equine Aqusititions and Holdings. That does not sound like for the love of the game investment to me. they are clearly out to make a profit, so if that is the case, with it p ut in that context, is paying 5 mil for half of court vision a smart investment?
I like your arguement all the way to the mortgage part, that has nothing to do with horse racing, remember the day a loan is made it is always a good loan, what happens to it afterwards is an entirely different story.

[the little guy]

I'll tell it the way it is so they'll know the reality. Am I right all the time? No... but Im open to debate.




Both can't be correct.

You tell your version of reality. I am not saying this is always incorrect.....but you tell it as YOU see it....not " the way it is. "

[slewis]

You can have all the knowledge and hard work in the world and never have a derby winner.,How do you explain that? How many have you had?
When Whittingham bought Sunday Silence back because he could not meet his reserve , was that knowledge or luck? You can have all the talent you want on your team, can they tell you what kind of heart the horse has? IMO probably the biggest factor of all and there is no way of telling. Tell me how do you gauge what kind of heart a horse has? Maybe Mike Scherak can clue us all in.And please dont tell me breeding gives you the answer, because I will site a million obscure animals who became champions not because of breeding but their will to win which NOBODY can gauge.

I was right... some like you ARE really jealous.. REALLY jealous. You must HATE them, and Dutrow, and me as well. There are one million stories like Whittingham's. Skip away's was even better. So what the F???
How does a Professional baseball scout know a HS pitcher has heart???
Or College QB...
Whenever one is attempting to predict the future, people like yourself can whine and say how do they know this and that???
Your right, NO one knows for certain. That's what this game is about.But when you see the same people with success after success (of course it must be Dutrow cheating). I guess they are lucky, and you are not.
Life must suck for you.
Why not try your hand at Blackjack, or Greyhound racing??

[slewis]

Both can't be correct.

You tell your version of reality. I am not saying this is always incorrect.....but you tell it as YOU see it....not " the way it is. "

Like I said... It's open to debate... Even with the mayor of munchkinville.:lol:

[MickJ26]

I was reading where they want to buy I want Revenge. Now that Patena has flopped and they might miss the big show they are in desparation mode to get to a derby horse! I guess we will have to hear Iavarone on derby day tell us how they all gathered and looked at the horse and madr the decision to buy him, based of course on their knowledge of horses. Big Browns purchase at least had some risk, a maiden win to his credit , but at least some risk. Maybe Iavarone should just wait till post time and try and buy the favorite!!


They're like George Steinbrenners.
They spend their money and they make the game interesting.
They don't care whether you like them or not.

[onefast99]

I was right... some like you ARE really jealous.. REALLY jealous. You must HATE them, and Dutrow, and me as well. There are one million stories like Whittingham's. Skip away's was even better. So what the F???
How does a Professional baseball scout know a HS pitcher has heart???
Or College QB...
Whenever one is attempting to predict the future, people like yourself can whine and say how do they know this and that???
Your right, NO one knows for certain. That's what this game is about.But when you see the same people with success after success (of course it must be Dutrow cheating). I guess they are lucky, and you are not.
Life must suck for you.
Why not try your hand at Blackjack, or Greyhound racing??
I dont think he is jealous of anyone else, his point is pretty clear, the IEAH group has made some interesting purchases and it seems that they are chasing their tales right now. Why? because it will be impossible to duplicate what they did last year. I also dont know how you could put yourself in the same group as Dutrow and IEAH you dont have any of the credentials they have. You fired the first shot on how jealousy seems to be supercaps motive, I think you just want a stage to boast on how you seem to know everyone in this game. Everyones entitled to their say, you seem to dislike anyone who disagrees with you.

[supercap]

I was right... some like you ARE really jealous.. REALLY jealous. You must HATE them, and Dutrow, and me as well. There are one million stories like Whittingham's. Skip away's was even better. So what the F???
How does a Professional baseball scout know a HS pitcher has heart???
Or College QB...
Whenever one is attempting to predict the future, people like yourself can whine and say how do they know this and that???
Your right, NO one knows for certain. That's what this game is about.But when you see the same people with success after success (of course it must be Dutrow cheating). I guess they are lucky, and you are not.
Life must suck for you.
Why not try your hand at Blackjack, or Greyhound racing??
I never said one word about Dutrow, so you can keep trying to bait me but,it is becoming clear that you have a problem with the guy. Trainers are a dime a dozen , making arguments about them is senseless.
Poor argument on baseball players having heart. Big difference you get to watch them play before you pay them .Let me get this straight IEAH needs a bunch of the right people ,up and comers to go buy a horse like Big Brown? My mother could look at the racing form and make that choice. Send a vet over and write a check. You are making them out to be a bunch of dopes!
I see I caught you with the will to win and heart argument ! So now you stoop to hate and blackjack insults. You have been exposed as a fraud!

[Relwob Owner]

I was right... some like you ARE really jealous.. REALLY jealous. You must HATE them, and Dutrow, and me as well. There are one million stories like Whittingham's. Skip away's was even better. So what the F???
How does a Professional baseball scout know a HS pitcher has heart???
Or College QB...
Whenever one is attempting to predict the future, people like yourself can whine and say how do they know this and that???
Your right, NO one knows for certain. That's what this game is about.But when you see the same people with success after success (of course it must be Dutrow cheating). I guess they are lucky, and you are not.
Life must suck for you.
Why not try your hand at Blackjack, or Greyhound racing??


I must admit....I often worry that I come across as being the "all good trainers use drugs" guy but I have to ask....Dutrow has been caught cheating and so have the IEAH boys(I believe there were milkshakes involved). So, how can anyone defend them when they have been caught cheating? Just because this sport has the loosest enforcement policies in the world and is afraid to enforce them, it doesnt mean that logical rational people cant realize what is going on, does it?

[supercap]

I must admit....I often worry that I come across as being the "all good trainers use drugs" guy but I have to ask....Dutrow has been caught cheating and so have the IEAH boys(I believe there were milkshakes involved). So, how can anyone defend them when they have been caught cheating? Just because this sport has the loosest enforcement policies in the world and is afraid to enforce them, it doesnt mean that logical rational people cant realize what is going on, does it?

Excellent point Relwob!

[slewis]

I must admit....I often worry that I come across as being the "all good trainers use drugs" guy but I have to ask....Dutrow has been caught cheating and so have the IEAH boys(I believe there were milkshakes involved). So, how can anyone defend them when they have been caught cheating? Just because this sport has the loosest enforcement policies in the world and is afraid to enforce them, it doesnt mean that logical rational people cant realize what is going on, does it?


Relwob,

You're managing to get me to blow my stack soon.
MILKSHAKES???

Greg Martin was wiretapped. If investigators had anything on IEAH, they would have been named as co-conspirators. Did they know??
Uhh, I would say, off the record, uhh guess.... BUT just remember one thing, and you know this.:: Licensing in this sport, especially in NY is VERY STRICT,
(Unless you're on the sopranos, and you're a 7 time convicted felon, then they look the other way).
NYS racing and wagering bd would have put them out of the game.
Dutrows positives are miniscule compared to many many trainers, and the things he has positives for are NOT going to make Phil or Benny go from being claimers to Stake winners.
Virtually EVERY top trainer uses steroids and Clembuterol and other medications. And Im sure they push the limits regarding dosages and stop dates.
NOT SUCH AN EXCELLENT POINT.:ThmbDown:

[Relwob Owner]

Relwob,

You're managing to get me to blow my stack soon.
MILKSHAKES???

Greg Martin was wiretapped. If investigators had anything on IEAH, they would have been named as co-conspirators. Did they know??
Uhh, I would say, off the record, uhh guess.... BUT just remember one thing, and you know this.:: Licensing in this sport, especially in NY is VERY STRICT.
NYS racing and wagering bd would have put them out of the game.
Dutrows positives are miniscule compared to many many trainers, and the things he has positives for are NOT going to make Phil or Benny go from being claimers to Stake winners.
Virtually EVERY top trainer uses steroids and Clembuterol and other medications. And Im sure they push the limits regarding dosages and stop dates.
NOT SUCH AN EXCELLENT POINT.:ThmbDown:

Well, I would recommend not blowing your stack about something like a post on this forum....it isnt that big of a deal, it is just a forum and my opinion.

Facts are facts and IEAH was connected to a trainer that broke the rules-plus, their fearless leader broke the rules in his past stock trading endeavours....not up for debate, just facts.

Saying that Dutrow's positives arent as bad as other trainers is a weak point and deflects---it takes away from my point which was simple---both have broken the rules and been caught so they have every reason to be viewed skeptically...nothing in your post disputed this.

Piece of advice---dont get so upset about my posts-they are just my opinions. In addition, unlike a lot of people on this forum, I will admit when I am wrong. However, both Dutrow and IEAH are documented cheaters and I am not wrong about that-live with it. Funny how the whole country is up in arms about cheaters being responsible for our economy but in Horse Racing, we are so used to it and accustomed to looking the other way and excusing it.

[slewis]

I never said one word about Dutrow, so you can keep trying to bait me but,it is becoming clear that you have a problem with the guy. Trainers are a dime a dozen , making arguments about them is senseless.
Poor argument on baseball players having heart. Big difference you get to watch them play before you pay them .Let me get this straight IEAH needs a bunch of the right people ,up and comers to go buy a horse like Big Brown? My mother could look at the racing form and make that choice. Send a vet over and write a check. You are making them out to be a bunch of dopes!
I see I caught you with the will to win and heart argument ! So now you stoop to hate and blackjack insults. You have been exposed as a fraud!
.

Oh and you never get to see a horse train or race before you buy them??

That's a pretty good point... Umm see you've been to sales before.

You know what, you're exposing yourself to how little you know about the game.

Here's another quote: "Trainer's are a dime a dozen". :lol: :lol:

At least we all know you're not an attorney, you're arguements are quite hypocritical, and comical.

[slewis]

Well, I would recommend not blowing your stack about something like a post on this forum....it isnt that big of a deal, it is just a forum and my opinion.

Facts are facts and IEAH was connected to a trainer that broke the rules-plus, their fearless leader broke the rules in his past stock trading endeavours....not up for debate, just facts.

Saying that Dutrow's positives arent as bad as other trainers is a weak point and deflects---it takes away from my point which was simple---both have broken the rules and been caught so they have every reason to be viewed skeptically...nothing in your post disputed this.

Piece of advice---dont get so upset about my posts-they are just my opinions. In addition, unlike a lot of people on this forum, I will admit when I am wrong. However, both Dutrow and IEAH are documented cheaters and I am not wrong about that-live with it. Funny how the whole country is up in arms about cheaters being responsible for our economy but in Horse Racing, we are so used to it and accustomed to looking the other way and excusing it.

Take it from an ex- Wall st. guy.... Securities Dealers break the law EVERY SINGLE DAY.... Do you get that?? EVERY SINGLE DAY.

[Relwob Owner]

Take it from an ex- Wall st. guy.... Securities Dealers break the law EVERY SINGLE DAY.... Do you get that?? EVERY SINGLE DAY.


and your point is.......

[Relwob Owner]

Take it from an ex- Wall st. guy.... Securities Dealers break the law EVERY SINGLE DAY.... Do you get that?? EVERY SINGLE DAY.


OK, so cheating is OK and it is OK that it happens in Horse Racing?

Again, back to my point-IEAH and Dutrow have both been cuaght cheating and deserve to be viewed skeptically. End of story.

Them being good or bad for the game is complicated and I can see both sides and have my opinion----no need to continue blowing your stack.

I get it-you used to work on Wall Street, it is tough to own horses, you have the inside scoop on everything, etc. etc....advancing that agenda and almost blowing your stack is taking your mind off the topic.

[JustRalph]

Take it from an ex- Wall st. guy.... Securities Dealers break the law EVERY SINGLE DAY.... Do you get that?? EVERY SINGLE DAY.


why would you admit that? You're a Wall Street guy.......?

Wall Street Guys are lower than an Atlantic City Hooker nowadays :lol:

it's just a joke..........calm down

[Relwob Owner]

Take it from an ex- Wall st. guy.... Securities Dealers break the law EVERY SINGLE DAY.... Do you get that?? EVERY SINGLE DAY.


And Ivarone is an ex-Wall Street guy----thanks for proving my point for me....I think the blowing of your stack is clouding your thinking right now.

[slewis]

and your point is.......

My point is that your trying to co-mingle a securities COMPLAINT with Horse race cheating.

[lamboguy]

as much cheating as he did with the milkshakes, i only saw him win 1 race in thirty five. if my memory serves me properly, it was a horse called lieutanant danze that ran in the meadowlands.

on top of losing his money he had to do time. all because he thought he was taking an edge.

there are always guys trying to figure out how to get the edge. most of them get caught, and rightfully so. after all they are cheating the public out of money. the idea behind the drugs is to either get the horse to breath better or take away the pain. i have never heard of a drug or treatment that put rocket juice into a horse, including steroids, which help the horse eat better.

i have heard of sublamates, that can stop horses. since they don't test horses that finish last i suppose that could happen.

i have been on this board a million times already about the same arguement. it boils down to this, their needs to be more monitoring and more stringent rules to make this game better. if a guy comes on this board and feels that he is getting cheated by trainers that use ilegal substance, we have no arguement since there is no comeback. i say spend the money and run this business the right way and you will have more business and it will be great for the game.

they banned steroids at the sales 5 years ago because all it did was fool people into spending ridiculous amount's of money on bad horses. if they didn't they would not have a sale today. samething with horseracing period.

[supercap]

.

Oh and you never get to see a horse train or race before you buy them??

That's a pretty good point... Umm see you've been to sales before.

You know what, you're exposing yourself to how little you know about the game.

Here's another quote: "Trainer's are a dime a dozen". :lol: :lol:

At least we all know you're not an attorney, you're arguements are quite hypocritical, and comical.
I guess you have never been to weanling and yearling sales. Oh by chance do they work yearlings and weanlings. You are the one who is exposed and please find your own phrases. You must be some nickel claimer owner who does not have a clue. Could you go to a yearling sale and know what you are looking at? It is obvious you would be lost. Stick to the 5 k platers and you will be fine ,dont venture into to the deep water where the big boys play.
As for trainers dont tell tell me they have you bambozzled into thinking there is a difference between them. Ok I will give you that , one probably can bs better than another!!!

[supercap]

Take it from an ex- Wall st. guy.... Securities Dealers break the law EVERY SINGLE DAY.... Do you get that?? EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Like I said in an earlier post, you should post your resume , this way you will not have to preface all your arguments with , Iwas this and I was that. Nobody gives a rats a## what you were and did . Do you think it makes your argument stronger telling us you were an ex wall streeter? What else have you done almighty one??

[lamboguy]

I guess you have never been to weanling and yearling sales. Oh by chance do they work yearlings and weanlings. You are the one who is exposed and please find your own phrases. You must be some nickel claimer owner who does not have a clue. Could you go to a yearling sale and know what you are looking at? It is obvious you would be lost. Stick to the 5 k platers and you will be fine ,dont venture into to the deep water where the big boys play.
As for trainers dont tell tell me they have you bambozzled into thinking there is a difference between them. Ok I will give you that , one probably can bs better than another!!!

i hate to say this, but i am in both ends of the business. i am the biggest failure in the claiming game that has ever walked this great earth. when i go in and reach its almost like they see me coming.

as far as sales goes, i have bought horses for pretty cheap money that no one else would touch, and have turned a few of them into champions

[Mineshaft]

I guess you have never been to weanling and yearling sales. Oh by chance do they work yearlings and weanlings. You are the one who is exposed and please find your own phrases. You must be some nickel claimer owner who does not have a clue. Could you go to a yearling sale and know what you are looking at? It is obvious you would be lost. Stick to the 5 k platers and you will be fine ,dont venture into to the deep water where the big boys play.
As for trainers dont tell tell me they have you bambozzled into thinking there is a difference between them. Ok I will give you that , one probably can bs better than another!!!





So you own more than a nickel claimer so fawkin what. Does that make you a know it all? I know tons of people who would run circles around you that probably dont have the money you have or might have.

[Mineshaft]

as much cheating as he did with the milkshakes, i only saw him win 1 race in thirty five. if my memory serves me properly, it was a horse called lieutanant danze that ran in the meadowlands.

on top of losing his money he had to do time. all because he thought he was taking an edge.

there are always guys trying to figure out how to get the edge. most of them get caught, and rightfully so. after all they are cheating the public out of money. the idea behind the drugs is to either get the horse to breath better or take away the pain. i have never heard of a drug or treatment that put rocket juice into a horse, including steroids, which help the horse eat better.

i have heard of sublamates, that can stop horses. since they don't test horses that finish last i suppose that could happen.

i have been on this board a million times already about the same arguement. it boils down to this, their needs to be more monitoring and more stringent rules to make this game better. if a guy comes on this board and feels that he is getting cheated by trainers that use ilegal substance, we have no arguement since there is no comeback. i say spend the money and run this business the right way and you will have more business and it will be great for the game.

they banned steroids at the sales 5 years ago because all it did was fool people into spending ridiculous amount's of money on bad horses. if they didn't they would not have a sale today. samething with horseracing period.







Ask Asmussen if they test for horses that run last? His last suspension came from a horse that ran last.

[Relwob Owner]

My point is that your trying to co-mingle a securities COMPLAINT with Horse race cheating.



In 1999, he was fined $7500 and suspended from trading for 10 days....look it up....but, by your apparent standards, that is no biggie because as you have said, all securties traders(werent you one???) steal and cheat.....your rationalization is amazing....this and then also your "Dutrow hasnt gotten caught as much as other trainers" argument.....

[supercap]

So you own more than a nickel claimer so fawkin what. Does that make you a know it all? I know tons of people who would run circles around you that probably dont have the money you have or might have.

When you jump in a post please read what has been said, I have no idea what you are talking about? "I know tons of people that would run circles around you". What does that mean? Please read before you spout aimlessly!

[Mineshaft]

When you jump in a post please read what has been said, I have no idea what you are talking about? "I know tons of people that would run circles around you". What does that mean? Please read before you spout aimlessly!





Your a clown. Telling that guy to stick with 5K claimers gives the impression to everyone that your above everyone else.. So fawkin what it doesnt mean you know everything about racing. If you wouldnt come off as know it all people would like you goofball.

[supercap]

Your a clown. Telling that guy to stick with 5K claimers gives the impression to everyone that your above everyone else.. So fawkin what it doesnt mean you know everything about racing. If you wouldnt come off as know it all people would like you goofball.
Like I said , read the whole thing before you pass judgement. Stop lurking, say something worthwhile or take a hike. The more you say the dumber you look!!! And that fawkin crap is gotta go!

[supercap]

Your a clown. Telling that guy to stick with 5K claimers gives the impression to everyone that your above everyone else.. So fawkin what it doesnt mean you know everything about racing. If you wouldnt come off as know it all people would like you goofball.
Dont want to be liked.

[onefast99]

Your a clown. Telling that guy to stick with 5K claimers gives the impression to everyone that your above everyone else.. So fawkin what it doesnt mean you know everything about racing. If you wouldnt come off as know it all people would like you goofball.
Its all in fun, lighten up especially your goof ball comment it makes you look very one dimensional.

[Mineshaft]

Dont want to be liked.





Dont worry nobody likes you

[supercap]

:jump: Dont worry nobody likes you

[Mineshaft]

Hey everyone lets stick to our 5K claimers and let Superhero stick to his Grade 1 horses. We are not in the same league as him.

[slewis]

In 1999, he was fined $7500 and suspended from trading for 10 days....look it up....but, by your apparent standards, that is no biggie because as you have said, all securties traders(werent you one???) steal and cheat.....your rationalization is amazing....this and then also your "Dutrow hasnt gotten caught as much as other trainers" argument.....

Now your making ignorant statements.

I said THE LAW IS BROKEN EVERY DAY. NOTHING ABOUT STEALING.

One thing we agree on, my rationalization is amazing, thanks for the compliment.
Get this straight....

If he STOLE, they would have taken his license away.
The DA would have prosecuted (google Bernie Madoff)
He would never be in the racing industry with a felony conviction.

Here's more "rationalizing", since you didn't understand my first example:
If you drive your car 60 in a 50mph zone, you may get a ticket.
You broke the law... jail time??? Not anywhere in the USA.

If you hit and kill someone, you may be looking at Vehicular manslaughter.

YOU ARE EQUATING BOTH AS EQUAL (the speeding and hitting and killing someone) if you apply the same thinking to the Dutrow positives and Ivarone NASD violations.
Get it now??

[supercap]

Hey everyone lets stick to our 5K claimers and let Superhero stick to his Grade 1 horses. We are not in the same league as him.
Rally the troops! Keep Lurking someone will talk to you!

[Mineshaft]

Rally the troops! Keep Lurking someone will talk to you!





When you said you got over on Hartley/Derenzo thats all i and everyone needed to know about you. Total classless person you are.

[Relwob Owner]

Now your making ignorant statements.

I said THE LAW IS BROKEN EVERY DAY. NOTHING ABOUT STEALING.

One thing we agree on, my rationalization is amazing, thanks for the compliment.
Get this straight....

If he STOLE, they would have taken his license away.
The DA would have prosecuted (google Bernie Madoff)
He would never be in the racing industry with a felony conviction.

Here's more "rationalizing", since you didn't understand my first example:
If you drive your car 60 in a 50mph zone, you may get a ticket.
You broke the law... jail time??? Not anywhere in the USA.

If you hit and kill someone, you may be looking at Vehicular manslaughter.

YOU ARE EQUATING BOTH AS EQUAL (the speeding and hitting and killing someone) if you apply the same thinking to the Dutrow positives and Ivarone NASD violations.
Get it now??

Here is what I dont get about you and some others on this forum....why call my statements ignorant? It just starts arguments that are pointless....that being said, ignorant is not knowing the difference between "your" and you're"....you paint yourself to be jack of every trade and come off as an arrogant fool(I only fire back when fired upon).....nice Madoff example.....it only took the feds 25 years to nab him? gives credence to the theory that just because you havent gotten caught yet doesnt mean you didnt do anything....your faith in our justice system and our horse racing rules and discipline system is laughable


I understand your analogy between the speeding and Dutrow and Ivarone enough to know that they are stupid analogies-----I will put it as simply as possible for your small mind to understand----they both have broken rules----thats it!!!! That was my point! Not how severe or whatever, just the fact that they broke rules....that was my only point and it is true and as I said previously, the fact that they have broken rules makes it reasonable for people to be suspicious.

Now, Mr. Wall Street/ Horse Owner/ All Knowing genius-----if you are such a smart, well seasoned expert on horses and wall street, why would you defend guys like Dutrow and Ivarone??---if you were such a seasoned veteran of both industries, I would think it would be simple to see the flaws in them both..

I have grown tired of your all knowing, arrogant self and dont like having my posts called ignorant- that is the reason I had to put you in your smug place---dont expect any more replies from me to you as I have grown tired of you.

[toussaud]

“Where there is shouting, there is no true knowledge.”

[supercap]

When you said you got over on Hartley/Derenzo thats all i and everyone needed to know about you. Total classless person you are.
Now you are a dope, In case you dont know they are the ones who did not check the horse for fertility, they are the ones who cheaped out on fertility insurance not me.
Hartley/ Derenzo are all class , Do you know how many times they have been sued by people who have bought horses from them? My guess is no, once again spewing misinformed nonsense from your mouth. The sales companies had to put so many regulations in place to keep these sellers from screwing people, No some facts before you call me classless. I love how you speak for everyone ,speak for yourself .cant you see you have no followers! Keep lurking someone will engage you soon.
If Hartley/ Derenzo is your test of class I feel bad for you. Ever hear of the phrase "horsetrader" look it up , you might find their picture.

[supercap]

Here is what I dont get about you and some others on this forum....why call my statements ignorant? It just starts arguments that are pointless....that being said, ignorant is not knowing the difference between "your" and you're"....you paint yourself to be jack of every trade and come off as an arrogant fool(I only fire back when fired upon).....nice Madoff example.....it only took the feds 25 years to nab him? gives credence to the theory that just because you havent gotten caught yet doesnt mean you didnt do anything....your faith in our justice system and our horse racing rules and discipline system is laughable


I understand your analogy between the speeding and Dutrow and Ivarone enough to know that they are stupid analogies-----I will put it as simply as possible for your small mind to understand----they both have broken rules----thats it!!!! That was my point! Not how severe or whatever, just the fact that they broke rules....that was my only point and it is true and as I said previously, the fact that they have broken rules makes it reasonable for people to be suspicious.

Now, Mr. Wall Street/ Horse Owner/ All Knowing genius-----if you are such a smart, well seasoned expert on horses and wall street, why would you defend guys like Dutrow and Ivarone??---if you were such a seasoned veteran of both industries, I would think it would be simple to see the flaws in them both..

I have grown tired of your all knowing, arrogant self and dont like having my posts called ignorant- that is the reason I had to put you in your smug place---dont expect any more replies from me to you as I have grown tired of you.
Lets get back to some racing, Who do you like in the Fl Derby?

[Relwob Owner]

Lets get back to some racing, Who do you like in the Fl Derby?


I like to hear that...got a little chippy and never like to engage but when I get fired on, I gotta fire back once.....

I like Dunkirk a little better than Quality Road....I worry abt QR getting the distance-another poster pointed something out that I hadnt thought of...QR wasnt nominated fot the TC and maybe there was a reason for it.....

Most of all, I am pumped for the Derby this year---seems like there are 5 or 6 possibilities looking pretty good....Mullins getting the Derby? wow

[supercap]

I like to hear that...got a little chippy and never like to engage but when I get fired on, I gotta fire back once.....

I like Dunkirk a little better than Quality Road....I worry abt QR getting the distance-another poster pointed something out that I hadnt thought of...QR wasnt nominated fot the TC and maybe there was a reason for it.....

Most of all, I am pumped for the Derby this year---seems like there are 5 or 6 possibilities looking pretty good....Mullins getting the Derby? wow

I like Dunkirk, I think he is just figuring out the game. Pletcher is due to finally have a serious Derby contender. QR left alone on the front end could be trouble ,cant wait to see the pps for this race.

[Relwob Owner]

I like Dunkirk, I think he is just figuring out the game. Pletcher is due to finally have a serious Derby contender. QR left alone on the front end could be trouble ,cant wait to see the pps for this race.


Me neither....I keep looking for a sleeper this year, but seems like the top 5 or 6 look strong

[lamboguy]

to get the horse to the kentucky derby is a miracle, to win it is a bigger miracle. everything has to go right.

personally i always think that the horses that come out of the florida derby or wood memorial tend to win in louisville. of course you can have some weak races there and that opens up the door for horses coming from someplace else.

funnycide ran in the louisiana derby then the wood. but he faced a great horse in the wood, empire maker.

[slewis]

Here is what I dont get about you and some others on this forum....why call my statements ignorant? It just starts arguments that are pointless....that being said, ignorant is not knowing the difference between "your" and you're"....you paint yourself to be jack of every trade and come off as an arrogant fool(I only fire back when fired upon).....nice Madoff example.....it only took the feds 25 years to nab him? gives credence to the theory that just because you havent gotten caught yet doesnt mean you didnt do anything....your faith in our justice system and our horse racing rules and discipline system is laughable


I understand your analogy between the speeding and Dutrow and Ivarone enough to know that they are stupid analogies-----I will put it as simply as possible for your small mind to understand----they both have broken rules----thats it!!!! That was my point! Not how severe or whatever, just the fact that they broke rules....that was my only point and it is true and as I said previously, the fact that they have broken rules makes it reasonable for people to be suspicious.

Now, Mr. Wall Street/ Horse Owner/ All Knowing genius-----if you are such a smart, well seasoned expert on horses and wall street, why would you defend guys like Dutrow and Ivarone??---if you were such a seasoned veteran of both industries, I would think it would be simple to see the flaws in them both..

I have grown tired of your all knowing, arrogant self and dont like having my posts called ignorant- that is the reason I had to put you in your smug place---dont expect any more replies from me to you as I have grown tired of you.


Mission accomplished....

[Mineshaft]

Now you are a dope, In case you dont know they are the ones who did not check the horse for fertility, they are the ones who cheaped out on fertility insurance not me.
Hartley/ Derenzo are all class , Do you know how many times they have been sued by people who have bought horses from them? My guess is no, once again spewing misinformed nonsense from your mouth. The sales companies had to put so many regulations in place to keep these sellers from screwing people, No some facts before you call me classless. I love how you speak for everyone ,speak for yourself .cant you see you have no followers! Keep lurking someone will engage you soon.
If Hartley/ Derenzo is your test of class I feel bad for you. Ever hear of the phrase "horsetrader" look it up , you might find their picture.






Hey goofball i know they didnt take out the infertility insurance. But that doesnt change the fact that you think you got over on them. You said it on this forum plain and simple. Quit trying to wiggle out of it goofball.

[supercap]

Hey goofball i know they didnt take out the infertility insurance. But that doesnt change the fact that you think you got over on them. You said it on this forum plain and simple. Quit trying to wiggle out of it goofball.

You are sharp shaft! You wouldnt be a little jealous that I got over would you? I enjoy the killing I made off them everyday, do you think they feel bad about all the screwiing they did? I am proud as a Peacock that I got over on them, they had it coming!!!

[slewis]

I guess you have never been to weanling and yearling sales. Oh by chance do they work yearlings and weanlings. You are the one who is exposed and please find your own phrases. You must be some nickel claimer owner who does not have a clue. Could you go to a yearling sale and know what you are looking at? It is obvious you would be lost. Stick to the 5 k platers and you will be fine ,dont venture into to the deep water where the big boys play.
As for trainers dont tell tell me they have you bambozzled into thinking there is a difference between them. Ok I will give you that , one probably can bs better than another!!!

5 k claimers?? really... you mean like the "5 k claimer" purchased that we raced in the Kentucky Derby last yr???

Hide behind you're fairy-ass keyboard....

Many on this board know me... and where to find me...feel free to step up to the plate.

[Mineshaft]

You are sharp shaft! You wouldnt be a little jealous that I got over would you? I enjoy the killing I made off them everyday, do you think they feel bad about all the screwiing they did? I am proud as a Peacock that I got over on them, they had it coming!!!






Now your true colors are coming out.

[onefast99]

5 k claimers?? really... you mean like the "5 k claimer" purchased that we raced in the Kentucky Derby last yr???

Hide behind you're fairy-ass keyboard....

Many on this board know me... and where to find me...feel free to step up to the plate.
How did he do that day? Is he still running now. If you bought him for 5k thats a nice score getting him to the KD. Good luck the rest of the year.

[supercap]

Now your true colors are coming out.
You are correct. pure genius on your part.

[supercap]

5 k claimers?? really... you mean like the "5 k claimer" purchased that we raced in the Kentucky Derby last yr???

Hide behind you're fairy-ass keyboard....

Many on this board know me... and where to find me...feel free to step up to the plate.
Just what I expected, You really are to easy. I am not hiding just tell me when and where tough guy. Your response was as common as your KD runner, I expected something a little more challenging. Thanks for letting me know about your KD runner, like I said you dont belong with the big boys!!! I asked around ,you are correct many know you , the pompous ass slewis !

[Mineshaft]

Just what I expected, You really are to easy. I am not hiding just tell me when and where tough guy. Your response was as common as your KD runner, I expected something a little more challenging. Thanks for letting me know about your KD runner, like I said you dont belong with the big boys!!! I asked around ,you are correct many know you , the pompous ass slewis !





So now you telling people who belongs with the big boys and who doesnt. You are a total clown.

[supercap]

So now you telling people who belongs with the big boys and who doesnt. You are a total clown.
And you and your horse were a total joke in the derby! I am telling you ,that you dont belong , total joke your whole operation!!!!!

[PaceAdvantage]

I am with you on the Nafzger phony bs, but Mrs Genter was a pleasure to see win.Now now, I never said Nafzger was a phony. If you read my words that way, then my mistake for making myself unclear.

I believe Nafzger was sincere, and how can you not like little Mrs. Genter? But enough already...that's all I'm saying.

[PaceAdvantage]

Damn, aren't there any moderators on this board? This thread is too long and too convoluted to go back and edit/delete, so now it must be closed.

Those who got overly aggressive went down a few pegs in my bookl...much less tolerance next time.