revolutionize racing....your thoughts ?

[tilson]

Everyone is looking for what would re vitialize racing and i think i have an idea that COULD NOT FAIL.
Racing needs to take a step backwards in time to take a 3 steps forward.
IMO what would make the race track irresistably interesting to both "old base fans and fans yet to be" would be the following:

Make the track like it was in the 1930's, make the track more like Wall Street.
If a person could get the odds he saw at the moment he bet i think a mulitude of things would happen almost to numerous to list.
larger crowds
the track still making money on huge handle increase.
race tickets could become almost like wall street options even before a race ran.......i mean if you bet 50 on a horse at 12 to 1 who is now 5 to 1 at post time, a guy might be willing to give you 70 bucks for the ticket before the race even runs.
I mean this is one of the main concepts of wall street a guy might like IBM OR GM at 50 because he thinks its worth 70 in the near future etc etc
The nauture of this game is that the track would still make money.....this essentially varies little, if at all from both the concpets of winter book betting and how wall street functions.
every race would now have a duel concept of not only.....indentifiy the eventual winner......but can i out manuever my betting peers in the accessment of if a particular horse is going lower or higher on the odds board.
I think the worst that could happen is that if this concept was non profitable for the track or not increasing handle, or not in the interest of racing for whatever reason the "old/current system" could easily be re instituted in a matter of a couple of days.

[hurrikane]

Interesting idea. It would take a while to make it work as peoples thinking would have to change. Not sure how you would handle scratches. I would love to get odd on some horses before the public beats em down to nothing. Track is getting there take either way. I believe the reason for the change was because of the shady dealings in the first place. How you make it all above board...I don't know..they can't do that with the mutual sytem in place now..

[Dave Schwartz]

Yes, it is an intersting idea... and I think they'd get slammed.

I recall a story that someone told me years ago about a coup they engineered back in the 80s, pre-simulcast days. Here is the scenario as it was related to me:

It was a rainy Wednesday at Pimlico. These guys had waited weeks for such a scenario. The field was short, 5 horses as I recall. There was an odds-on favorite at about 4/5. There was only a few hundred dollars in the show pool. They invested a couple of thousand dollars wagering on all the horses except the favorite in the show pool.

Meanwhile, in Las Vegas, their cohorts were running around town betting as much as they could get down on the favorite to show. He told me they eventually got down about $15k on this horse. (Not too many books were afraid to take a big bet on a horse favored on the ML.)

So, the favorite wins the race and pays like:

$3.00 $2.40 $9.00

and they make a killing.


Also, perhaps someone has a better recollection than me of the way Caliente did it a few years ago, but as I recall when you bet you could actually choose beteen parimutuel or fixed odds. Perhaps it was the CURRENT tote odds at the time you made the bet. I don't recall. Anyone?



Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Rick Ransom]

In England they have both a parimutuel systems and bookmakers. About 95% of the bets are made with the bookies, so people must like the fixed odds better.

But Nevada race books are mostly going to parimutual bets and never, as far as I know, had fixed odds betting on horse races (except future book betting on major races). So they must feel that it's too risky, at least on US races.

The situation that Dave mentioned is a little different and can only happen when off-track bookmakers take bets that are too large in relation to the pools. But it has happened occasionaly because you have so many places to bet in Nevada that you don't have to bet that much at one place.

I'd love to see it happen, but I don't think it will. You'd have to legalize bookmaking at the track and somehow have the track not lose money in the process. A racetrack couldn't take the risk directly, so it would have to collect fees from the independent bookies. If I ever see it in Nevada first, then I'll start to get excited.

[ceejay]

In the UK betting shoppes already allow you to select fixed odds or the "tote" (pari mutual). I do not know if they co-mingle or not. When I played there, sometimes the tote went up after my bet. Also, track side over there, you can bet at the tote or with a private book (who will fix the odds).

I think in a practical sense, that stateside this will not happen. That is because the I do not believe that the books and the race tracks want to take the risks involved with booking the bets themselves and a pari mutual system can not work with fixed odds bets (or it is not pari mutual).

I am frankly opposed to going to the British system because of the extremely low percentage of handle that is dedicated to purses over there (I am NOT an owner). I believe that the tote and the books are supposed to dedicate 1% to purses but as I understand it this is poorly enforced. One huge reason that we see so many fillies/mares come stateside is the extremely low filly/mare purses (along with the obvious Lasix angle).

[tanda]

It will never happen.

The idea is that the tracks should become bettors instead of stakeholders. When you be with a bookie, you are actually betting against the bookie. A smart bookie balances his action and with the vig wins. Nevertheless, you and the bookie are betting.

Today, the tracks are stakeholders with no interest in the outcome (except for the rare case of minus pools). They get the same cut no matter the outcome.

Why would I give up a safe 14% plus breakage in NY for example and switch to a system where I make varying amounts on each race (including losing on some races)?

Also, it is not a new or interesting idea as some have suggested. It is fixed odds bookmaking as practiced at times here in the US and overseas.

[Dick Schmidt]

What you would be doing is creating about 15 seperate pari-mutual pools on each race, say one every 90 seconds. This would mean that a big bet would really crush the odds. There is no way the tracks could afford to "book" your bet at fixed odds, even if it was legal, which it isn't in 49 states. I think they tried something similar in Australia (AussiePlayer ?) and reverted to one pool. Remeber that the pari-mutual system was created in responce to the odds offered by bookmakers and has proved to work for 100 years now. If it ain't broke . . .

Dick

[Tom]

-Free parking
-Free program
-edible food at realistic prices
-tables and chairs
-courteyous employees
-clean bathrooms
-free beer <G>
-general mangers that come out and talk to people and
actually look interested
-simulcasting with coordinated post times
-weekly explanations of steward's decsions
-enough open windows for people to bet at
-10 minutes between "official" and post time
-free beer
-slot machines (Ok, ok, I give up)
-video poker
-movie theaters (for all those little free-range darlings)
-handicapping contests
-rolling pick threes
-$1 bets
-more daily doubles
-free beer
-real programs-the kind that fit in your pocket and
don't have PP's in them
-muzak
-bingo rooms
-gimicks, like baseball does-instead of bat day you
could have whip day or something
-night racing or twilight racing
-free beer
-rebates for frequent bettors (accumulate points, win
valuable prizes or get a free bet for every $100 you
really bet)
-quick-pick machines
-pick fours
-in-field parties with betting areas-liquor 'em up, take
their cash
-thoroughbred action figures
-jockey trading cards
-"party with the ponies" promotions-people win a free
party for up to 30 people-free lunch, admissioin,
program, free DD, all in a seperate party area with a
host, entertainment, etc.-bring in new people, make
them have a good time, see if they come back on their
own
And, oh yeah, full fields, lower take out, and lower breakage

Tom

[Rick Ransom]

I'm pretty sure that if the track took fixed odds bets they would have to do it at a higher percentage takeout in order to cover the risk. Check out the effective percentage take on future book bets in Nevada sometime if you don't believe me. And they don't even have to pay the purses and other expenses.

[bucktron]

Racing needs fresh blood. The only way to revitalize racing is to get the McDonald’s Generation hooked on the Sport of Kings. How? If you like blood you have to work in the blood bank . The “I don’t want to know anything, I just want to get paid “ Generation is looking for something for nothing. Many of them are disrespectful of the technological accomplishments of the Baby Boomer Generation and that is the Key to the Blood Bank. Any opportunities to prove their technological prowess, their technical superiority over their elders makes their jugulars expand. Even an old Vampire with dentures could possibly have a field day. The following might work.

1. AN ANNUAL NATIONAL COLLEGIATE HANDICAPPING CONTEST.
2. ANY COLLEGE STUDENT ELIGIBLE TO ENTER (According to Age Laws of Each State).
3. EACH REGIONAL TRACK CURCUIT WOULD HOLD THE CONTEST OVER NO LESS THAN 25 CARDS WITH A PLAYER HAVING TO MAKE A SPECIFIED MINIMIUM NUMBER OF PLAYS TO QUALIFY.
4. THE TOP 5 HANDICAPPERS FROM EACH CIRCUIT GO ON TO THE NATIONALS.
5. THE TOP 10 COLLEGIATE HANDICAPPERS OR HANDICAPPING TEAMS (Perhaps the Math and Computer Departments of many of our prestigious universities might be convinced, with the proper Marketing, that this is their NCAA National Championship Tournament) WILL COMPETE AGAINST THE OLD GUARD THAT QUALIFIED IN A SIMILAR WAY.

Perks:
1. FREE SOFT DRINKS FOR THE STUDENTS (Soft Drink Companies send Marketing Checks to Fast Food Franchise’s ranging form 15% to 25% of the total Cost of Sales for Syrup. They would probably provide the Soft Drinks Free)
2. $.25 HOTDOGS FOR THE STUDENTS.
3. Free Grandstand Admission for STUDENTS showing their College ID.
4. A Free “Introduction to Handicapping Class” every Saturday Morning.

Prizes:
1. CASH (Based on commitments of Tracks and Potential Sponsors)
2. COLLEGE SCHALORSHIPS (Based on commitments of Tracks and Potential Sponsors)
3. RESEARCH GRANTS (A chance for many universities to display how bright their math and computer science students are. An opportunity to show that their students have the same type of creativity that the MIT’s and CAL Tech’s students have).
4. POTENTIAL JOB OFFERS AT HIGHER STARTING SALARIES to winning student SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS. This would be a NATIONAL VECHICLE to prove to MAJOR CORPORATIONS that you can create and not regurgitate when it comes to state of the art software development.

The OUTCOME would invariably be thousands of young, well educated, well paid, arrogant new HANDICAPPERS injecting new blood into the wonderful game we love. The EVER CHANGING PUZZLE will trick them into believing that the new technological methodologies that they will bring to the dance will make them RICH. Little do they know, there is “No Royal Road” then maybe there is.


Bucktron

[Aussieplayer]

Dick: Here in Australia, we have 3 pari-mutuel pools, "totes." One is for the state of NSW (Sydney). one is for Queensland (Brisbane) and Supertab for all the other states combined. You can open an account with all 3 if you like. On most races, you'll see very little difference in odds between the 3 (as we have arbitrage guys in the "commission rooms" - ie. "highrollers" making 1% on an almost garaunteed outcome. These guys turn over millions).

We also have bookies at the track (who are taxed by the government, part of which goes back to the racing industray, just like the totes). These guys offer fixed odds, and in the old days it was really competitive (I'm told) but these days the'yre all offering about the same.

You can also have phone accounts with bookies, a number of them are on the net. Our biggest one (Mark Read) offers a new product called "Divvie-Plus" which offers the best of the 3 totes odds plus 1%. Which means you'll always get the best of the 3 totes without guessing. Minimum bet $20.

Cheers
Aussieplayer

If they really want to get new people involved in racing, I think the way to do it is to lower the wager amount. Do like they do at some tracks in New Zealand. For exoctic's establish a min bet say $5 but let people bet any amount they want on any number of combinations. Lets say that I wanted to bet tri combinations that would normally cost a $100 based on $1 tri bets. But I only wanted to bet $20 on my combinations. (or 20% of the normal $1 tri amount). should one of my combinations hit I would get my 20% of the $1 payout. You could do this with P3s' P4 and P6's as well.

This should be a snap for Autotote since all the wagers and pools are computerized. I think this would do more to generate interest and increase the handle from new race fans then any of the giveaways, rock concerts, etc that they are trying now.