Question for Horsemen/women

[Bruddah]

After 40+ years of handicapping, I asked myself a question today that I really didn't know. It will be elementary to those of you on the backside I was almost to embarassed to ask. :blush:

I am "assuming" in a claiming race, the claims or shakes come prior to the race? (I really don't know)

If they are prior to the race, is there anywhere this information is listed? Where and When?

Thanks for helping with such a basic question. :ThmbUp:

[Greyfox]

After 40+ years of handicapping, I asked myself a question today that I really didn't know. It will be elementary to those of you on the backside I was almost to embarassed to ask. :blush:

I am "assuming" in a claiming race, the claims or shakes come prior to the race? (I really don't know)

If they are prior to the race, is there anywhere this information is listed? Where and When?

Thanks for helping with such a basic question. :ThmbUp:

I'm not sure what you're asking but the claims are drawn before the race.
There may be several claims in for one horse.
If you claim one, it's your horse immediately after the race.
My understanding is that the purse money goes to the owners who entered the horse. However, if the horse breaks down during the race, it becomes the claimers horse.
The owners and trainers are obviously told prior to the race.
The general public may be told after the race that so and so was claimed.
Whether or not that info is available from the track secretary before the race to the general public, I don't know either.

[Bruddah]

I suppose my real question should have been, does the Racing Secretary post prior to the race, which horses have been claimed? I have heard the announcements, after a race. However, if you aren't at the track and paying attention, it does no good. Especially after the race has run. The Rac. Sec. list other information prior to a race, why not claims?

According to information I have in a db, knowing which horses have been claimed prior to the race can be advantageous.

[ryesteve]

The problem with having this information released before the race is that a trainer who doesn't want to lose his horse will manage to get the horse gate-scratched.

[Greyfox]

According to information I have in a db, knowing which horses have been claimed prior to the race can be advantageous.

Absolutely spot on. The connections are going to try to get the claimed horse to go hard and get as much as possible out of it. If they don't produce in that race, when will they produce?

[Observer]

Claims can not be announced prior to the running of a race because the claim doesn't become official until the horses are sent on their way from the gate. Shakes are done after the running of the race when all parties involved are represented.

[point given]

The problem with having this information released before the race is that a trainer who doesn't want to lose his horse will manage to get the horse gate-scratched.
Bingo. i recently read a thread on the same topic and this was the reason the claims were not announced prior to the race in Tbred racing, but i think they are announced for standardbred races. I remember years ago at Hialeah the owner Brunetti got in some hot water when he ran his own stable horses and got the message if his horse had a claim in and then he would have the horse scratched. Certainly made an uneven playing field.

[LottaKash]

FWIW...in Harness Racing, only a vet or the official starter can scratch a horse, prior to the race....as far as I know.

These days the claims and the number of claims on a horse, are now announced prior to the race start....This gives the players a key advantage that used to be hidden until now.....

And it is true, many horses run very, very big when a claim is entered....Often horses will bounce very big from those scary efforts, and will not return to action for a bit, instead of the customary weekly race..

best,.

[Mineshaft]

1-If you claim a horse depending on your jurisdiction the horse becomes your property when it breaks the gate or it sets foot on the track. It just depends what the rules are in your state.


2-Claims are not announced before the race and owners and trainers are not told of the claim till after the race. Now if you happend to be in the racing office when the claim is being drawn then you might know then but they dont call you on the phone and say hey you horse got claimed this race.


3-Shakes are not done until the horse leaves the gate because some states when the horse leaves the gate it is your property.


4-Sometimes the claims clerk will say we have claims in on the #4 horse and the #7 horse but its never announced to the public.


5-I agree there should be a list of all claims in the racing office when the claim happens. Maybe leave that list up all meet.

[stu]

I suppose my real question should have been, does the Racing Secretary post prior to the race, which horses have been claimed?


Here are the mechanims at the places that I have worked.

At the claiming cut off (usually 10 MTP), the claims clerk (at small tracks may also be paddock judge, identifier, etc) pulls all of the claims from the box.

Next he verifies the time stamp makes the claim valid and all of the commission required information is correct. This includes the date, race, horse, new trainer, new owner, license numbers and signature. (Some get eliminated at this step).

If all of the following is good, then the claims clerk calls the horsemen's bookkeeper to make sure the new owner has enough to cover the claim and tax if required. (Some get eliminated at this step.)

At this point if there is a shake, the clerk has to wait for representatives from each potential claim to arrive. The shake occurs.

Along the way and after the shake, the claim is called to the stewards.

The stewards then call the winners circle to inform the runner or clerk of scales or valet to tag a claimed horse. If all goes well this call is made before the horses get back to the unsaddling area.

Next the stewards call the test barn (the location of the handoff) to let them know who to give the horse to.

Simultaneously, another steward calls the video department and the third steward calls the announcer. The public is notified.

Then the clerk of course, identifier, asst racing secy, or racing secy is called to be notified of the claim with all of the required information to mark the transaction on the foal papers. At this time the information is also relayed to the Equibase chart caller.

So in most situations, the only people that know that a horse is claimed and by whom before the race are:

- claims clerk
- bookkeeper
- stewards and the officials in the same room

On some occassions, the stewards must be consulted to determine if a claim should be voided. Since the stews are watching the race for infractions this conversation may occur after race is official.

[onefast99]

The claim occurs once the slip is dropped in the claim box, this occurs no later then 10 minutes until post time. Someone from the racing office will go thru each and every slip, if a mistake is made a claim slip is voided. If there is a shake a pill bottle is used and the numbers are drawn dependent on the amount of claims in on that particular horse. Should a horse breakdown during the race and was claimed that horse is the property of the person who claimed it. Shakes are done in front of the people in on the claim once the race has been completed and not during the race. Most racing offices have claim information posted right by the horsemans book. The list is updated after each claiming race. The track announcer will call out the horse(s)who have been claimed in the race.

[JustRalph]

I watched on TVG once after a race was over, and a horse had broken down, they held a shake between five trainers to see who was the new owner of the broken down horse. That was tough to watch. I believe John Sadler got the horse............

[Mineshaft]

The claim occurs once the slip is dropped in the claim box, this occurs no later then 10 minutes until post time. Someone from the racing office will go thru each and every slip, if a mistake is made a claim slip is voided. If there is a shake a pill bottle is used and the numbers are drawn dependent on the amount of claims in on that particular horse. Should a horse breakdown during the race and was claimed that horse is the property of the person who claimed it. Shakes are done in front of the people in on the claim once the race has been completed and not during the race. Most racing offices have claim information posted right by the horsemans book. The list is updated after each claiming race. The track announcer will call out the horse(s)who have been claimed in the race.






Shakes are done in Louisiana when the horses break the gate and that is usually during the running of the race. Seen it happen a lot.

[Cangamble]

In Ontario, claims have to be in at 15 minutes to post. Once claims are in, the clerk checks to make sure there is enough money in the account. Then the claims slips are checked for errors or anything else that may cause an alarm as a new ownership that may be questionable (like protection claims).

Around 7-9 minutes to post, a horsemen can go in and ask if there is a shake or not. Generally they have a good idea by the other horsemen hanging around who usually will say trainer to trainer that they are in on a certain horse.

The shake is done prior to the race, but the horse doesn't become your property until the gate opens. And I've seen jockeys scratch a horse because a claim was in on it.

Claimed horses are announced prior to the running of harness races, but not thoroughbred races:confused::confused::confused::confused::conf used:

Usually trainers don't know that their horse was claimed until after the horses are headed to the track, so they usually don't tell the jockey to waste the horse no matter what (because they don't know for sure the horse was claimed). Though I've seen that happen too.
Trainers are not supposed to be told they lost a horse by anyone affiliated with the track, though many have special relationships and seem to find out ahead of time.

I'm thinking out loud right now, but I think that claims aren't announced before the race to protect the horse from the jockey. It isn't like harness racing. Thoroughbreds can take weeks to recover if they are gassed.

[Imriledup]

Does anyone think that claims should be announced before the race?

If not, why not.

Thanks.

[stu]

Does anyone think that claims should be announced before the race?

If not, why not.

Thanks.

Not all of the p's and q's can be done quickly. Imagine those 9 way shakes having to make sure all 9 claimants have enough money before the starter can kick the gates.

[Mineshaft]

Does anyone think that claims should be announced before the race?

If not, why not.

Thanks.







Definetely not.

if trainer or jock get a hold that a claim is in on there horse they can scratch. Jock can bring it back and not want to ride the horse and then you cant find another rider that wants to ride it so then they scratch it. Then you cant claim it.

[Mineshaft]

Not all of the p's and q's can be done quickly. Imagine those 9 way shakes having to make sure all 9 claimants have enough money before the starter can kick the gates.




If there are a lot of claims in for the horse sometimes they dont get to shake for the horse till after the race or after the horse is being unsaddled. When this happens they make the horse go to the paddock and cool out there till the do the shake and see who the new owner is. Ive seen that happen when they had about 30 claims in for a horse.

[Cangamble]

Definetely not.

if trainer or jock get a hold that a claim is in on there horse they can scratch. Jock can bring it back and not want to ride the horse and then you cant find another rider that wants to ride it so then they scratch it. Then you cant claim it.
It would make for a great rule, that if you have a claim in on the horse and it is scratched before the race by the jock, or the steward (on a wink from the jock), that the owner trying to claim the horse have the option to buy the horse for the claiming price.

I don't know how many actually would claim the horse though, because no matter how much it might stink of larceny, it would scary claiming a horse that may actually had been too sore to pass the vet at the starting gate.

[Greyfox]

Does anyone think that claims should be announced before the race?

If not, why not.

Thanks.

YES!!!:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Bruddah]

Thanks to all. I appreciate the expertise and good folks that can be found on this board.

There is money to be made, if you only knew which horse(s) were claimed before the race. Unfortunately, that information is not available until after the race. :(

[Cangamble]

Thanks to all. I appreciate the expertise and good folks that can be found on this board.

There is money to be made, if you only knew which horse(s) were claimed before the race. Unfortunately, that information is not available until after the race. :(
I don't know if money would be made? Usually claims are just as obvious to bettors as they are potential claiming outfits.
The only advantage I can see is that many trainers will follow a horse before the race or at least look at the horse before he drops the slip. Many times a trainer will rip up the slip because the horse looked off, or he spotted a long term potential problem with the horse's legs.

[Greyfox]

Does anyone think that claims should be announced before the race?

If not, why not.

Thanks.

Yes, I do.
I'm a player not a horse owner. My comments above were "roughly" right.
Having said that, others, depending upon the jurisdictions, have added more accurate comments than mine.

My own observation, unsupported by any data base that I have access to,
is that claimed horses run better on the day of the claim.
After the race the trainer will be handing over and exchanging gear with a new barn.
Personally, I think that the public should know who is being claimed in the same way that who has "blinkers on or off"....

[Bruddah]

I don't know if money would be made? Usually claims are just as obvious to bettors as they are potential claiming outfits.
The only advantage I can see is that many trainers will follow a horse before the race or at least look at the horse before he drops the slip. Many times a trainer will rip up the slip because the horse looked off, or he spotted a long term potential problem with the horse's legs.

I say BINGO! The man wins a cigar! The horse has been looked over by experienced eyes and judged to be fit, for the price of claiming. If several slips have been dropped, what does that say?

A big unknown in claiming races has always been, Is the horse ready, willing and able today. A pill dropped by an experienced claiming trainer would be a great indicator of fitness today. (JMHO) By the way, my db thinks so as well.

[raybo]

A big unknown in claiming races has always been, Is the horse ready, willing and able today. A pill dropped by an experienced claiming trainer would be a great indicator of fitness today. (JMHO) By the way, my db thinks so as well.

And, the reason the vast majority of my wagers are in claiming races.

[Bruddah]

A big unknown in claiming races has always been, Is the horse ready, willing and able today. A pill dropped by an experienced claiming trainer would be a great indicator of fitness today. (JMHO) By the way, my db thinks so as well.

In today's simulcasting environment, this information could be just as important as being at the paddock and having an experienced trainer indicating which horse(s) looked fit and ready. By the way, when I am at the track, I am an avid student of Trillis Parker's Body Language of the Horse. I love to inspect them in the paddock and on the track. :eek:

[mountainman]

Absolutely spot on. The connections are going to try to get the claimed horse to go hard and get as much as possible out of it. If they don't produce in that race, when will they produce?

I've been campaigning for 10 yrs to have claims announced before the race. The reasons not to can be worked around, and the benefit to players would be considerable. Whatever your stance, know this; Sooner or later claims are indeed going to be disclosed before the race. So why not now?

[mountainman]

I say BINGO! The man wins a cigar! The horse has been looked over by experienced eyes and judged to be fit, for the price of claiming. If several slips have been dropped, what does that say?

A big unknown in claiming races has always been, Is the horse ready, willing and able today. A pill dropped by an experienced claiming trainer would be a great indicator of fitness today. (JMHO) By the way, my db thinks so as well.

I sometimes break tradition and reveal (after the race) the number of claims deposited on a horse. To my knowledge, I'm the only tv analyst in America who does this. I would advise caution in interpreting this information, however, should it ever be given out before the race. As in other aspects of handicapping, things aren't always as they seem. Some research, in fact, has indicated that longshots claimed by obscure barns generate a much higher roi than obvious horses for which multiple claims are deposited. And I'm not sure either, looking ahead to a claimed horse's next start, that popular claims prove wise investments. Horsemen are among the worst handicappers on the planet, and often get suckered in on "too good to be true" types. At my home track, for instance, horses that draw a crowd at the claim box so often turn out to be lemons, that, when I worked as claims clerk, I'd inform trainers who lost a shake that they were probably better off. Claiming horses is similar to wagering in that obvious choices translate to low value.

[Bruddah]

I sometimes break tradition and reveal (after the race) the number of claims deposited on a horse. To my knowledge, I'm the only tv analyst in America who does this. I would advise caution in interpreting this information, however, should it ever be given out before the race. As in other aspects of handicapping, things aren't always as they seem. Some research, in fact, has indicated that longshots claimed by obscure barns generate a much higher roi than obvious horses for which multiple claims are deposited. And I'm not sure either, looking ahead to a claimed horse's next start, that popular claims prove wise investments. Horsemen are among the worst handicappers on the planet, and often get suckered in on "too good to be true" types. At my home track, for instance, horses that draw a crowd at the claim box so often turn out to be lemons, that, when I worked as claims clerk, I'd inform trainers who lost a shake that they were probably better off. Claiming horses is similar to wagering in that obvious choices translate to low value.

Thanks Mtn Man. I value your input. I don't know, if I would want claims divulged before the race. Like any good information, which might have an edge, once exposed, it becomes almost useless to the bettor.

I started this thread thinking I would be showing my total ignorance of the subject. Having accomplished that, I am pleased with the education all of you have given me. It has shortened my learning curve substantially.

Thanks to All :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[onefast99]

Thanks Mtn Man. I value your input. I don't know, if I would want claims divulged before the race. Like any good information, which might have an edge, once exposed, it becomes almost useless to the bettor.

I started this thread thinking I would be showing my total ignorance of the subject. Having accomplished that, I am pleased with the education all of you have given me. It has shortened my learning curve substantially.

Thanks to All :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:
Standardbreds divulge this information before the race. Dont know if it makes one bit of a difference.

[maxwell]

I think claims should be known to the public before the race simply because it could be another handicapping tool. If a sharp trainer has claimed a horse, the animal might have something going for it. Could be a good question for the tb geeks : What % of horses have won the race they are claimed from when top trainers drop the claim?

I don't think a claimed horse should become the property of the new owners as soon as the gate opens. If the horse makes it back to the unsaddling area on its own accord, the buyer become the proud owner.

In most cases, when a foal is born it has to stand up on its own and suckle before it becomes the property of the buyer. Makes sense to me.

[JPinMaryland]

Definetely not.

if trainer or jock get a hold that a claim is in on there horse they can scratch. Jock can bring it back and not want to ride the horse and then you cant find another rider that wants to ride it so then they scratch it. Then you cant claim it.

wouldnt there be any easy way around that problem? Say the guy with the claim still gets the horse even if he scratches?

[Relwob Owner]

I think claims should be known to the public before the race simply because it could be another handicapping tool. If a sharp trainer has claimed a horse, the animal might have something going for it. Could be a good question for the tb geeks : What % of horses have won the race they are claimed from when top trainers drop the claim?

I don't think a claimed horse should become the property of the new owners as soon as the gate opens. If the horse makes it back to the unsaddling area on its own accord, the buyer become the proud owner.

In most cases, when a foal is born it has to stand up on its own and suckle before it becomes the property of the buyer. Makes sense to me.


I thought the same thing til I started claiming horses but quickly realized what you are saying is impossible---you suggest the buyer getting ownership once the horse comes back "on its own accord"-that creates a HUGE gray area and the chance for some huge issues. What ios the horse is now limping a bit? What if the horse ran terribly and the buyer doesnt want it anymore?

[Mineshaft]

I sometimes break tradition and reveal (after the race) the number of claims deposited on a horse. To my knowledge, I'm the only tv analyst in America who does this. I would advise caution in interpreting this information, however, should it ever be given out before the race. As in other aspects of handicapping, things aren't always as they seem. Some research, in fact, has indicated that longshots claimed by obscure barns generate a much higher roi than obvious horses for which multiple claims are deposited. And I'm not sure either, looking ahead to a claimed horse's next start, that popular claims prove wise investments. Horsemen are among the worst handicappers on the planet, and often get suckered in on "too good to be true" types. At my home track, for instance, horses that draw a crowd at the claim box so often turn out to be lemons, that, when I worked as claims clerk, I'd inform trainers who lost a shake that they were probably better off. Claiming horses is similar to wagering in that obvious choices translate to low value.







Don Stevens at Delta will also say how many claims were in on a horse. Sometimes he does sometimes he doesnt.

[Mineshaft]

wouldnt there be any easy way around that problem? Say the guy with the claim still gets the horse even if he scratches?




Horse becomes property whe he breaks the gate. If he doesnt break the gate and is scratched then the claim is no good.

[Cangamble]

In Ontario they have a rule that if the horse is euthanized within 24 hours of the claim, the new owners get back half of the claim from an existing horsemen's fund (I think). I'm not 100% sure, but I think it is to half of up to either 16,000 or 20,000.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I'm not sure what you're asking but the claims are drawn before the race.
There may be several claims in for one horse.
If you claim one, it's your horse immediately after the race.
My understanding is that the purse money goes to the owners who entered the horse. However, if the horse breaks down during the race, it becomes the claimers horse.
The owners and trainers are obviously told prior to the race.
The general public may be told after the race that so and so was claimed.
Whether or not that info is available from the track secretary before the race to the general public, I don't know either.

The claims are drawn AFTER the race!...

[Greyfox]

The claims are drawn AFTER the race!...

Yes. You should have read farther. I've agreed to that.
Or did you mean, the claims are drawn AFTER the gates open?
At least that's the way it's supposed to be.
Knowledge of the claim though is known sometimes before the race.
Note how strong some horses run on the day they are claimed.

[Si2see]

5-I agree there should be a list of all claims in the racing office when the claim happens. Maybe leave that list up all meet.

I just wanted to comment on your post here, I know for a fact that at least calder's website has a claim register listed on there website that is updated every week. It will show you any horse claimed and who took the horse, and for what price. It will also tell you how many shakes if any were in on the horse but it will not list who was in on the horse in the shake.

[Si2see]

Yes. You should have read farther. I've agreed to that.
At least that's the way it's supposed to be.
Knowledge of the claim though is known sometimes before the race.
Note how strong some horses run on the day they are claimed.

I have known Tom Schell for over 3 years now, and if one thing he has ever taught me about racing it is that "they never give anything away at the racetrack, if the horse looks too good to be true, it is, pass on it ( do not claim it ) "

[Cangamble]

The claims are drawn AFTER the race!...
Not in Ontario. It is done before the race. There might be an exception if there are 5 or more claims in on the same horse.

[ralph_the_cat]

Its done before the race at most the tracks I've claimed/been too... MNR being one of them... 10 min to post they get right too it... pull the claims out, if you're the only one its yours, or they'll shake, typically you have time to shake, realize you have the horse, then get a hot dog, maybe a $2 bet, then watch the race... different tracks have different rules... frankly, I like the before race approach...

[Bruddah]

I just wanted to comment on your post here, I know for a fact that at least calder's website has a claim register listed on there website that is updated every week. It will show you any horse claimed and who took the horse, and for what price. It will also tell you how many shakes if any were in on the horse but it will not list who was in on the horse in the shake.


Oaklawn provides the exact same information on their website. Again. it does no good because it's updated after the race has run. No way to know the information prior to the running of the race. :(

If there were, it would just lower the odds on many more winners even further. So, best that it isn't available befor the race. (JMHO)

[Mineshaft]

The claims are drawn AFTER the race!...






Depends on what you mean by DRAWN.


The claim box is opened up 15 minutes before the race and the claim slips are sorted out. If there are multiple claims in on a horse then in Louisiana they draw pills DURING the race or AFTER the race. There are no set rules that pills have to be drawn AFTER the race.

[Mineshaft]

I just wanted to comment on your post here, I know for a fact that at least calder's website has a claim register listed on there website that is updated every week. It will show you any horse claimed and who took the horse, and for what price. It will also tell you how many shakes if any were in on the horse but it will not list who was in on the horse in the shake.





Yes some track websites post these on there website but i think they should also have a list of claims on the bulletin board in the racing office

[onefast99]

Depends on what you mean by DRAWN.


The claim box is opened up 15 minutes before the race and the claim slips are sorted out. If there are multiple claims in on a horse then in Louisiana they draw pills DURING the race or AFTER the race. There are no set rules that pills have to be drawn AFTER the race.
Claims must be dropped 10 mins prior to post no exceptions. At Aqueduct saratoga and belmont as well as Monmouth park there is a list available after each claiming race on who was claimed usually just the horses number and the race number. I have been told some trainers get the claim information with about 2 minutes to go to post. Shakes of course are done after the race in front of the parties involved in the shake. We were in an 8 way shake once and got the horse, now thats luck.

[maxwell]

I thought the same thing til I started claiming horses but quickly realized what you are saying is impossible---you suggest the buyer getting ownership once the horse comes back "on its own accord"-that creates a HUGE gray area and the chance for some huge issues. What ios the horse is now limping a bit? What if the horse ran terribly and the buyer doesnt want it anymore?

Agreed, it could be a problem. Let's change "on its own accord" to "sound". No limps or jocks carrying the horse on his/her shoulders. :D

I'm no vet but I can tell by watching a horse pull up and jog back to the unsaddling area if there is an obvious problem. The track vet could have the final say. If a horse runs poorly ... tough beans.

All I'm saying is there should be some sort of common sense protection for the poor sap who shelled out 50k for a horse that left the track in the back of the ambulance. ( heaven forbid, of course. )

I guess it will always be : Buyer x your fingers and toes. :)