The War on Terror

[Snag]

Did we win the War on Terror three weeks ago and I missed it? Since BO came into office, there seems to be a total lack of news coverage on anything related to the war effort. It's like he and the news media say to hell with anything related to the military now. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. BO gave us a hint at his attitude. We still have people in harms way and he won't even acknowledge them. That's a damn shame.

[Marshall Bennett]

He's like most democrats , doesn't care , doesn't have a clue , and if he did he would be bucking his puppit masters . They despise our military .

[jballscalls]

Funny i dont remember hearing the media say anything good about the war on terror for the last 4 or 5 years, why would they start now.

Now that their guy is elected, apparently they've even stopped saying the bad stuff thats happening there.

[Ned Locke]

Setting aside, (for now), the issue of whether there really is a "War on Terror"; It appears the Chickenhawks haven't been paying any attention to the strikes occurring in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I know, reading isn't fundamental for Republicons and watching Fox Entertainment isn't going to infuse much knowledge, but for those socialized by the Fox Ostrich, here’s one you missed. ABC Blasphemy!...lol:

http://abcnews.go.com/International...=6724182&page=1 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/Inauguration/story?id=6724182&page=1)

Obviously, drones are indiscriminate and Obama better wise up fast and stop "roll of the dice" killings if he wants to retain both International and Domestic support. Ending the Bush Charade in those regions is critical to Long Term Peace. Clear and evenhanded Foreign Policy is the tool to win that Peace. Not indiscriminate Bush Type Attacks that create more enemies than they eliminate.

"Kill my kids Mr. Bush and yours shall never have peace."

Obama understands, but he's caught up in a bad mindset within the CIA and Military that he hasn't yet had time to correct




[QUOTE=Marshall Bennett]He's like most democrats , doesn't care , doesn't have a clue , and if he did he would be bucking his puppit masters . They despise our military .

[Snag]

Obviously, drones are indiscriminate and Obama better wise up fast and stop "roll of the dice" killings if he wants to retain both International and Domestic support. Ending the Bush Charade in those regions is critical to Long Term Peace. Clear and evenhanded Foreign Policy is the tool to win that Peace. Not indiscriminate Bush Type Attacks that create more enemies than they eliminate.


Roll of the Dice killings? Do you feel these type of strikes don't work?

"Retain" both International and Domestic support. BO has support? From whom? He hasn't done anything yet.

Bush Charade says alot about your attitude toward this whole thing. Do you really think the radical religious left wants anything to do with PEACE? My guess is that you are one of those that want to talk them out of the mountains and talk them out of their planning to kill Americans. When that works, please let us know. Until then we need to keep blowing their butts off the mountains. And I don't care which country they are hidding in.

[lamboguy]

obama ran on bringing the troops home, he just ordered 30,000 of them to show up to afganistan to finish the job he claims.

these guys all say one thing and do the other.

[Ned Locke]

Sometimes you have to use force, but you can't do it on an anonymous tip. You can't do it because a tortured suspect said:

"Stop, please stop.....Ok, ok.....Imad did it and Imad is in the brown house in Spookladesh."

Thats the problem.

No you can't just blow them off the Mountain if you want long term Peace. You HAVE to be THERE and confirm you're in a hotbed of bad guys. If its not worth doing with troops. It's not worth doing.

These days, we aren't drafting, so the volunteers have a mindset that they are dying for Freedom. They're not of course, but if they are willing to give their lives when diplomacy would solve 95% of the problem, then godspeed. Maybe there will be a medal in the mix. Go into that valley Mr. Custer, theres brave Sioux and Cheyenne warriors down there if you're up to the challenge of rooting them out from among the civilians. Don't worry brave men, they'll make themselves apparent to you in due time and if you want a gunfight in their homeland, you'll get it.

Roll of the Dice killings? Do you feel these type of strikes don't work?

"Retain" both International and Domestic support. BO has support? From whom? He hasn't done anything yet.

Bush Charade says alot about your attitude toward this whole thing. Do you really think the radical religious left wants anything to do with PEACE? My guess is that you are one of those that want to talk them out of the mountains and talk them out of their planning to kill Americans. When that works, please let us know. Until then we need to keep blowing their butts off the mountains. And I don't care which country they are hidding in.

[Lefty]

ned, What annonmous tip? Also waterboarding gleaned info that has saved American lives.
Toture? Can waterboarding be torture when we use it as a training exercise for our own troops?

[Ned Locke]

Lefty, I think among the last of the faithful. "The Fellow Travelers", that theres wilfull ignornace about what has been done in Iraq and elsewhere.

I know you know this, but Water Boarding has been barred. And you probably know that Japanese Generals were tried, convicted and executed at the Nuremburg Trials for using Water Boarding to get information from U.S. Combatants.

One of Bush's CIA appointees asked to be water boarded to form an opinion upon its use. His response was "Oh my god, yes its torture." (He was relieved of his position.)

We can't keep covering the same old ground. Theres a new clearer thinking administration now but even they are still learning about the pitfalls that have been laid by the Bush abuses. Eventually, they'll cast off all of the Bush policies.


ned, What annonmous tip? Also waterboarding gleaned info that has saved American lives.
Toture? Can waterboarding be torture when we use it as a training exercise for our own troops?

[Tom]

With this dipstick in the Oval Office, we are a sitting duck for new attacks.
He has taken out many of the successful safeguards Bush put in place.
Obama getting elected is the kiss of death of many people. Last time we had a dem in the Oval, we got hot repeatedly, here and abroad. Our CNC's response to terror was a hummer by Monica. Dems are weak on national security.

[Marshall Bennett]

... and this particular group is totally dead on national security . Even if the stimulus package was to work ( which it won't ) what good is it if we're dead anyway ?

[dutchboy]

"All who surrender will be spared; whoever does not surrender but opposes with struggle and dissension, shall be annihilated."
--Genghis Khan

Mr Khan had the right idea. He did not waste time worrying if a little harmless waterboarding would hurt someones feelings.

On one of his visits with his Mongol troops he sent a delegate in to a city with the option of "surrender or every man, woman, child and dog will be killed"

They did not surrender and he kept his word.

[Secretariat]

ned, What annonmous tip? Also waterboarding gleaned info that has saved American lives.
Toture? Can waterboarding be torture when we use it as a training exercise for our own troops?

Lefty,

Torture is torture. Your argument is fallacious.

Hitler or Tojo may very well have made the same argument in WW 2. That torture saved their citizen's lives. Therefore, any information gained (false or real) is merited if a nation's citizens lives might be saved. Because captured Jews might have been part of the resistance, any technique is warranted that may have illicited any information. When our POW's were captured by the Japanese, any interrogation is permissible by them, because it may have saved their citizen's lives.

If waterboarding is indeed used as a training exercise, it speaks more to a serious problem with our training exercises than it does to any justification for torture.

Fortunately, your buddy John McCain is even on board with this one. You're still with Rush who escaped any possibilty of actually facing the potential for torture by having a boil on his butt during Nam.

[Suff]

. We still have people in harms way and he won't even acknowledge them. That's a damn shame.

Whatever the Obama administration is doing it must be working. There has not been a terrorist attack on our soil since he has been President.

That's about as good a success rate as I know. George Bush allowed an attack on American soil when he was president. Obama has not.

[Secretariat]

Whatever the Obama administration is doing it must be working. There has not been a terrorist attack on our soil since he has been President.

That's about as good a success rate as I know. George Bush allowed an attack on American soil when he was president. Obama has not.

There have been multiple attacks since 911 if an American embassy is considered our soil. Most recently in Yemen in September of this past year which killed at least 16.

And if Bush's claim to fame is the fight against the War on Terror, he has failed miserably as terrorist attacks were significantly up during his administration, and our "allies" (who actually sent soldiers to Iraq) have born the brunt of much of it. After all he called it the War on Terror, NOT just the War on Terror to save Americans and the hell with our Allies who actually send troops to fight." From England to Mumbai.

His failure on 911 is reprehensible. We don't need to revisit his month long vacation to Crawford upon getting the Bin Laden Determined to Attack in US memo. (Can you imagine what Limpballs would've said if Obama did something like that?). His ignoring of Richard Clarke's warnings or the CIA's warnings in July. His strong reluctance to even support a 911 commission into the matter.

This should have been a covert action against Al Queda rather than his bullshit rhetoric. He failed miserably. Personally, I wonder if maybe we shouldn't just feign withdrawl, to lure them out of those caves so we know exactly where they are. Once they feel confident to come out into the open, then smash them rather than looking for a needle in a haystack.

Just please spare me any accolades for GW, this disaster of a President, who has left our country in a shambles economically and diplomatically that will take years to recover from.

[Tom]

No, Sec, whatever else, the economy is the results of the idiots in charge - Dodd, Frank, Obama, Reid, Pelsoi. No way you can spin that any other way. No way.

But it is nice to know you would rather not get a murderer's head wet that save American lives. I think that is what pretty much sums you and your kind up. Tell me about it after the next attack. I really intend to remind you about it.

[Marshall Bennett]

You two ( Sec & Suff ) deserve each other . Many of the placeguards Bush put in place are still effective although Obama has squashed any hopes of it lasting . You want to guage Obama's success with national security after 3 1/2 weeks ? Thats as naive as doing the same with his economic degree of success , which if your willing to do so ( with you two there's always that chance ) last I checked , the economy was a pile of shit .

[Tom]

Marshall, I point out the it was gross failure at BOSTON airport that allowed 9-11 to ever take place. No surprise.

[Lefty]

judge, I just got a PA e-mail with the message that you posted to this thread. Did you delete it? If so, you did the right thing as I wanted to "call" you on it.

[robert99]

Did we win the War on Terror three weeks ago and I missed it? Since BO came into office, there seems to be a total lack of news coverage on anything related to the war effort. It's like he and the news media say to hell with anything related to the military now. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. BO gave us a hint at his attitude. We still have people in harms way and he won't even acknowledge them. That's a damn shame.

There's a whole lot going on - perhaps Aljazeera reports these things better for US citizens.

"Richard Holbrooke, the US envoy, is set to open talks with Afghan leaders in Kabul as speculation grows over the future of Hamid Karzai, the country's president.

The visit by Holbrooke, the US special representative for Pakistan and Afghanistan, comes as Karzai faces pressure from Washington to step up efforts against Taliban and al-Qaeda-linked fighters."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/02/20092137480542698.html

[Snag]

There's a whole lot going on - perhaps Aljazeera reports these things better for US citizens.
"Richard Holbrooke, the US envoy, is set to open talks with Afghan leaders in Kabul as speculation grows over the future of Hamid Karzai, the country's president.
The visit by Holbrooke, the US special representative for Pakistan and Afghanistan, comes as Karzai faces pressure from Washington to step up efforts against Taliban and al-Qaeda-linked fighters."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/02/20092137480542698.html

You are correct. There is a lot going on but our national media is not reporting it. At least not like they were. We use to be told how bad everything was in Afgan and Iraq. I had to dig to find out that Iraq had elections again and very little trouble at the polling places. Could it be that democracy in Iraq isn't worth reporting?

[JustRalph]

There are Marines being called up all over the country for a coming April start date for a 14 month tour in Afghanistan.

A friend of mine is going............

[lamboguy]

There are Marines being called up all over the country for a coming April start date for a 14 month tour in Afghanistan.

A friend of mine is going............

obama says he wants to protect us against the alqaeda, 30,000 troops heading over to afganistan

[Tom]

We already know Obama is a bold faced liar.
Talk is cheap.

Where is the left's outrage over this massive invasion of a sovereign nation?

[Secretariat]

No, Sec, whatever else, the economy is the results of the idiots in charge - Dodd, Frank, Obama, Reid, Pelsoi. No way you can spin that any other way. No way.

But it is nice to know you would rather not get a murderer's head wet that save American lives. I think that is what pretty much sums you and your kind up. Tell me about it after the next attack. I really intend to remind you about it.

:lol: :lol: :lol: The idiiots in charge? Where have you been the last eight years? Thanks for waking up Mr. Van Winkle.

As to me and my "kind", I suppose you mean the "kind" at Nuremberg who beleived that there is no place in a civilized society for condoning torture. If that's the "kind" you're lumping me in with, thank you very much for the compliment.

[Lefty]

sec, so you're equating waterboarding with the torture the Nazis meted out? Gads, boy.

[PaceAdvantage]

It appears the Chickenhawks haven't been paying any attention to the strikes occurring in Afghanistan and Pakistan.Chickenhawks...you mean like Obama, right?

[PaceAdvantage]

Sometimes you have to use force, but you can't do it on an anonymous tip. You can't do it because a tortured suspect said:

"Stop, please stop.....Ok, ok.....Imad did it and Imad is in the brown house in Spookladesh."

Thats the problem.So very insightful Ned! You should be working for the State Department. Or are you already?

[PaceAdvantage]

Eventually, they'll cast off all of the Bush policies.I guess that means its finally time to move far, far away from any major metropolitan area.

Thanks for nothing Mr. President.

[JustRalph]

Sometimes you have to use force, but you can't do it on an anonymous tip. You can't do it because a tortured suspect said:

"Stop, please stop.....Ok, ok.....Imad did it and Imad is in the brown house in Spookladesh."
Thats the problem.

You have such a grasp of interrogation techniques and what it takes to obtain information.............. :bang:

This post is crap..........you have no idea what military interrogators do..........and the protocol for "actionable intelligence"

[Secretariat]

sec, so you're equating waterboarding with the torture the Nazis meted out? Gads, boy.

Lefty,

You've stood with GW the whole time in your posts supporting GW on toruture via waterboarding.

"..in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402005.html

I'd be content with 15 years of hard labor for GW.

[Tom]

BS. Some of our troops undergo it as training, the POS we used it on spilled the beans and we stopped a major attack, and he was not permanently hurt by any stretch of the imagination. It is not fatal, does not injure, and the three times we used, it worked. 15 years for saving thousands of lives. How shallow can you get?

Now, your boy, Barry, is sending thousands of troops to Afghanistan, and he has already murdered people in Pakistan. How many years for him?

[GaryG]

Now, your boy, Barry, is sending thousands of troops to Afghanistan, and he has already murdered people in Pakistan. How many years for him?The war in Iraq/Afghanistan has now become a righteous cause with the emperor basking in his reflected glory. Sort of an American jihad....defenders of freedom is what they are, not war criminals.

[Floyd]

Anti-terror measures (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7892387.stm) worldwide have seriously undermined international human rights law, a report by legal experts says.

After a three-year global study, the International Commission of Jurists said many states used the public's fear of terrorism to introduce measures.

These included detention without trial, illegal disappearance and torture.

It also said that the UK and the US have "actively undermined" international law by their actions.

It concluded that many measures introduced to fight terrorism were illegal and counter-productive.

It called for justice systems to be strengthened and warned that temporary measures should not become permanent.

The panel of eminent lawyers and judges concluded that the framework of international law that existed before the 9/11 attacks on the US was robust and effective.

But now, it said, it was being actively undermined by many states and liberal democracies like the US and the UK.

The report remarks upon the extent to which undemocratic regimes with poor human rights records have referred to counter-terror practices of countries like the US to justify their own abusive policies.

[Snag]

It also said that the UK and the US have "actively undermined" international law by their actions.

It concluded that many measures introduced to fight terrorism were illegal and counter-productive.



I would hate to tell the 3,000 that died on 911 that the War on Terror is being fought by "illegal" measures. What a load.

[Lefty]

sec, I've always said you libs had no understanding of discerment. If you can't tell the difference in waterboarding a civilian and somebody engaged in the business of killing us, then it's hopeless. You guys make no discernment between abortion and executing murders, so why am I not surprised?

[bigmack]

The report remarks upon the extent to which undemocratic regimes with poor human rights records have referred to counter-terror practices of countries like the US to justify their own abusive policies.
Yeah, when asked of his atrocities Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe says "Well the US waterboards, so I thought I could kill & torture at will"

We're beasts and savages in this country for waterboarding?

Tell that to Nick Berg's family

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/2_16_09_17_18_15.png

[Secretariat]

Yeah, when asked of his atrocities Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe says "Well the US waterboards, so I thought I could kill & torture at will"

We're beasts and savages in this country for waterboarding?

Tell that to Nick Berg's family

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/2_16_09_17_18_15.png

With your Mugabe quote you've basically illustrated one of the reasons we cannot fall prey to becoming the same savages that killed Berg or like the Japanese soldier in WW 2 who waterboarded and was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor by the US. There's a reason they called them the greatest generation. This was the generation that set up the moral imperatives of the Geneva conventions, and said we as nations even in times of war don't need to resort to the same heinous crimes of savage enemies.

Our credibiltiy as a world leader has been based on a set of values that stands "above" these barbarians. We don't need vengeance for Berg. We need to hold these savages accountable, NOT become them.

[bigmack]

Our credibiltiy as a world leader has been based on a set of values that stands "above" these barbarians. We don't need vengeance for Berg. We need to hold these savages accountable, NOT become them.
Our credibility as a world leader is in a constant state of besiege by all who prefer to see us as an evil empire irrespective of our techniques to garner information from barbarians. Many are abroad, still many live among us.

I can live with living in a country that simulates a feeling of drowning for a few minutes for these rat bastards. Those wanting to put us on a pedestal for exhibiting model behavior for the world are most times the first ones in line to say we're the evil ones at the drop of a hat even if we behaved like BoyScouts.

[Floyd]

Our credibility as a world leader is in a constant state of besiege by all who prefer to see us as an evil empire irrespective of our techniques to garner information from barbarians. Many are abroad, still many live among us.

I can live with living in a country that simulates a feeling of drowning for a few minutes for these rat bastards. Those wanting to put us on a pedestal for exhibiting model behavior for the world are most times the first ones in line to say we're the evil ones at the drop of a hat even if we behaved like BoyScouts.
So torture is O.K. because everybody thinks we're evil anyway?
Stay classy, bigmack!

[bigmack]

So torture is O.K. because everybody thinks we're evil anyway?
Stay classy, bigmack!
Not everybody. Just folk like you. :rolleyes:

[Floyd]

Not everybody. Just folk like you. :rolleyes:
Oh. So torture's O.K. because folks like me think it's evil.
Right.
Good luck with that.

[Lefty]

Sec, you really think warerboarding is a close cousin to beheading? Do you think if warerboarding was really torture that we would be subjecting our own troops to it.
Waterboarding saved american lives with absolutly no lasting harmful effects tothe terrorist. You libs, the unmasters of nuance and discernment...

[Snag]

We don't need vengeance for Berg. We need to hold these savages accountable, NOT become them.

Hold them accountable? Maybe if we just talk to them real nice they will stop beheading people. I'm sure they understand your concern.

[Ned Locke]

Theres no where to begin when an entire post (like the one below) is false. :bang:

The epitome of hilarity is in these zealot enclaves where the kool aid "jones" continues to dominate the ever shrinking group of addicts. With each passing year they are distilled further down to an ever more informationally challenged remnant. (True Hard Core Junkies.) The most incorrigible of them make facts up out of whole cloth :liar: and incredulously, they even do so to support positions long since made moot by the events that have transpired.

Making up facts to support positions on issues long passe is how you identify the men carrying the 800 pound insane gorilla upon their backs and when you see one you don't argue facts, truth or logic with him. The best you can do is throw him a banana.

Forgive me, but its so incredibly sad, its funny. :lol:


BS. Some of our troops undergo it as training, the POS we used it on spilled the beans and we stopped a major attack, and he was not permanently hurt by any stretch of the imagination. It is not fatal, does not injure, and the three times we used, it worked. 15 years for saving thousands of lives. How shallow can you get?

Now, your boy, Barry, is sending thousands of troops to Afghanistan, and he has already murdered people in Pakistan. How many years for him?

[Lefty]

hey, ned locke on unrealty, Everything Tom said was true. Can you prove otherwise? Or should we just take your word?

[The Judge]

once again you are imagining things I haven't posted to this thread (until now). You wanted to reply. To what? One reply fits all. Its the same old song with the right, its someone elses fault. The two men that ran for President both were against torture so no matter who won you guys were out. Reply to that!

Obama been in office a matter of days Bush was there 8 years yet its Obama's fault. Do you see why people in other countries think this country is out of step with the rest of the world.

No attacks and you guys act as if your PTA meetings are full of armed insurgents. "Obama's doing something I don't know what but it must be wrong. Obama is doing nothing he should be doing something. Why isn't he torturing somebody? I feel better/safer when someone is being tortured don't you! " Are you guys serious?

[Floyd]

“What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight… is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect. While we are warriors, we are also all human beings”
-- General David Petraeus
May 10, 2007
Tortured Reasoning (http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2008/12/torture200812)
The Torture Report. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/18/opinion/18thu1.html?_r=1)
"These policies are wrong and must never be repeated." (http://www.cfr.org/publication/18022/senate_armed_services_committee_inquiry_into_the_t reatment_of_detainees_in_us_custody.html)

[Lefty]

judge, I got an e-mail that you posted. Anyway, how can you deny the fact that waterboarding a terrorist saved a lot of lives. Yes, when american lives are at stake a little waterboarding doesn't bother me. BTW, there's no damage to the terrorist either. He lives to kill more americans as soon as you libs get him a lawyer and he's loose again.

[Floyd]

how can you deny the fact that waterboarding a terrorist saved a lot of lives. Yes, when american lives are at stake a little waterboarding doesn't bother me.
I'm amazed that civilized people in the 21st century are even having this discussion. Torture is a despicable and ineffective practice and has no place in modern warfare. I linked to three pieces upthread, Lefty. You may want to read them before parroting any more of the Bush administration's lies.
From the first:
"In researching this article, I spoke to numerous counterterrorist officials from agencies on both sides of the Atlantic. Their conclusion is unanimous: not only have coercive methods failed to generate significant and actionable intelligence, they have also caused the squandering of resources on a massive scale through false leads, chimerical plots, and unnecessary safety alerts—with Abu Zubaydah’s case one of the most glaring examples.

Here, they say, far from exposing a deadly plot, all torture did was lead to more torture of his supposed accomplices while also providing some misleading “information” that boosted the administration’s argument for invading Iraq."

[The Judge]

you also need a judge or two or 5 as in the case of the United States Supreme Court. Even with the federal bench stacked with consevative judges, they even say the Bush administration is wrong including Kennedy and the Supremes.

The problem isn't that the terriorist have lawyers the problem is there is no proof that they are terriorist. If they are terriorist there is no problem, prove it and they stay in jail.

[cj's dad]

So you believe that waterboarding is torture?

Read "Bucher,My Story". This book recounts the story of Cmdr. Lloyd Bucher USN, USS Pueblo, captured in International waters by the North Koreans. His torture and that of his crew was inhumane.

Or, read about the Bataan Death March and the treatment by the Japs of our captured military men.

Or the men held captive by the Germans in WWII.






So torture is O.K. because everybody thinks we're evil anyway?
Stay classy, bigmack!

[Floyd]

So you believe that waterboarding is torture?

Read "Bucher,My Story". This book recounts the story of Cmdr. Lloyd Bucher USN, USS Pueblo, captured in International waters by the North Koreans. His torture and that of his crew was inhumane.

Or, read about the Bataan Death March and the treatment by the Japs of our captured military men.

Or the men held captive by the Germans in WWII.
Waterboarding is torture, the argument that it is not has been made and lost. Reasonable, rational people understand that it serves no purpose, and actually works against us as outlined in The Senate Armed Services Committee Inquiry Into the Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody, which I've linked to above. Advocating torture as you do means that you embrace the same evil as the North Koreans, the Japanese and the Germans you reference. I believe, as you obviously do not, that America should be better than that.

[The Judge]

that says the same thing. Torture is torture, these are your justices conservatives, "they" say its inhumane, not a bunch of bleeding heart liberals, these are your people appointed by your President applying the laws of the United States. You are a part of the United States are you not?

7 of the 9 Justices of the Supreme Court were appointed by Republicans.
What more do you want? A stack deck and you all are still crying foul, liberals made us do it, its somebody elses fault.

Why can't we be free to waterboard suspected terriorist who never had a hearing who may or may not be terriorist. Mean ol Justices!

[cj's dad]

-now theres a group we should all be thrilled to pieces with.


I am much more interested in what the Military and the CIA have to say regarding the value of enemy coercement than a group of candy-ass Supreme Court judges.

[Floyd]

-now theres a group we should all be thrilled to pieces with.


I am much more interested in what the Military and the CIA have to say regarding the value of enemy coercement than a group of candy-ass Supreme Court judges.
From "The Senate Armed Services Committee Inquiry Into the Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody:"

“What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight… is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect. While we are warriors, we are also all human beings”
-- General David Petraeus
May 10, 2007

“The American Public has a Right to Know That They Do Not Have to Choose Between Torture and Terror” (http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/12/hbc-90004036)

[cj's dad]

wouldn't the key word be non-combatants?

[Floyd]

wouldn't the key word be non-combatants?
noncombatants and detainees
RTFA.
You're revealing yourself to be a despicable human being here. I'm not sure if that's your intent, but that's the impression you leave.

[bigmack]

From "The Senate Armed Services Committee Inquiry Into the Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody:"
You're coaching a football team and the opposing team is playing rough, hitting late, et al. You huddle-up your team and say "Let's be better than them. Let's keep our heads high and play nice" Another coach would say "Fight fire with fire". Two ways of approaching aggression.

Is turning the other cheek better than an eye for an eye? Who knows. Pound for pound isn't your main objective to make us out to be the big bad wolf for having chosen an approach you wouldn't have?

[cj's dad]

Ah, the prototypical response from the left-facing a response one does not like/agree with; always but always resort to name calling. Thanks for re-affirming my faith in those of your kind.
noncombatants and detainees
RTFA.
You're revealing yourself to be a despicable human being here. I'm not sure if that's your intent, but that's the impression you leave.

[Floyd]

Ah, the prototypical response from the left-facing a response one does not like/agree with; always but always resort to name calling. Thanks for re-affirming my faith in those of your kind.

You are advocating we use the same tactics you decry in others, you are debasing our country in the name of imagined expedience even after you are shown that those tactics do not serve the intended purpose. You have no moral, intellectual, or legal justification for the acts you advocate. The only possible conclusion is that you must derive some pleasure from torturing the helpless.
That, sir, is despicable.

[The Judge]

two ways of "coaching"? Thats some game you are playing. How about an unmanned drone exploding in your midst thats pretty "eye for an eye".

What we are talking about is torture of "detainees" not fighting and killing in combat situations.

"Candy Ass Supreme Court" Wow! Who do you want on your court Vald The Impaler, Genghis Khan, the Shah of Iran, Franco,The James-Younger Gang. If this court ain't right wing enough for you, you got problems.

[cj's dad]

That, sir, is despicable.

One man's despicable is another man's justice.

Board on !!

BTW- I have to get back to work-breaks over- currently in the process of euthanizing stray dogs and cats here at the shelter; only after not feeding them for 3-4 days.

[bigmack]

Yderive some pleasure from torturing the helpless.
That, sir, is despicable.
Poor, poor helpless Khalid. Just a mis-understood fellow caught up in a situation not of his doing. :lol:

Get him some Lorna Doone's and a cup of cold milk. He's been persecuted.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/ksmohammed.jpg

[Floyd]

One man's despicable is another man's justice.

Board on !!

BTW- I have to get back to work-breaks over- currently in the process of euthanizing stray dogs and cats here at the shelter; only after not feeding them for 3-4 days.
I'm glad my country no longer believes in that kind of perverted "justice."
Now get back to work, your county is depending on you!

[cj's dad]

I'm glad my country no longer believes in that kind of perverted "justice."
Now get back to work, your county is depending on you!

Glad to hear that you're in on what is currently going on @ Gitmo. :lol:

BTW- one of the dogs wouldn't lead us to the other strays hide out so I sprayed him with a hi-pressure hose and he folded like a cheap tent.:jump:

[Lefty]

Geo Tenet said we waterboarded 3 detainees. He also says it saved american lives. So libs, get a clue.

[Bubba X]

Geo Tenet said we waterboarded 3 detainees. He also says it saved american lives. So libs, get a clue.

LMAO. What do you think he was going to say??????

[delayjf]

You are advocating we use the same tactics you decry in others
Water boarding is hardly the same thing as having your head cut off. Seriously, all the uproar about torture by those in Congress. I honestly believe that The ONLY reason for the "outrage" was to use the issue against George Bush.

[cj's dad]

Water boarding is hardly the same thing as having your head cut off. Seriously, all the uproar about torture by those in Congress. I honestly believe that The ONLY reason for the "outrage" was to use the issue against George Bush.

Right on regarding GB. The Demoncrats will do anything to get elected.

Yeah, real American heroes, these members of Congress. How many of them have sons and daughters in the military.

[Floyd]

Water boarding is hardly the same thing as having your head cut off. Seriously, all the uproar about torture by those in Congress. I honestly believe that The ONLY reason for the "outrage" was to use the issue against George Bush.
I'll agree, it's hardly the same as having your head cut off.
But do you honestly believe the outrage didn't have anything to do with fact that torture violates the Geneva Convention? Or the fact that we were breaking international law? Or that it's completely immoral and totally ineffective? Or that it directly endangers our troops by depriving us of any moral high ground? Is that actually your honest belief, that reasonable people should have no problem with torture?

[Floyd]

Right on regarding GB. The Demoncrats will do anything to get elected.

Yeah, real American heroes, these members of Congress. How many of them have sons and daughters in the military.
Hey, nice Michael Moore shoutout (http://004d808.netsolhost.com/f911chap7-8.html) there.

[cj's dad]

Hey, nice Michael Moore shoutout (http://004d808.netsolhost.com/f911chap7-8.html) there.

Nice try

[Floyd]

Nice try
Get back to work. Those puppies aren't going to torture themselves, you know.

[cj's dad]

now that's funny:lol:

Get back to work. Those puppies aren't going to torture themselves, you know.

[ddog]

LMAO. What do you think he was going to say??????

why "SLAMDUNK" , of course.... :lol:


get it wb wmd , pretty cute huh :eek:

[delayjf]

But do you honestly believe the outrage didn't have anything to do with fact that torture violates the Geneva Convention? Or the fact that we were breaking international law? Or that it's completely immoral and totally ineffective? Or that it directly endangers our troops by depriving us of any moral high ground? Is that actually your honest belief, that reasonable people should have no problem with torture?

I think it's more a matter of the lessor of two evils. As far as International Law and the Geneva Convention is concerned - if the enemy follows international law / the Geneva Convention than fine, I have no problem doing the same. But if not, then the gloves are off. On your other points, I believe you are wrong and have been proven wrong. Waterboarding Khalid did save US lives. Without access to classified material, nobody can really judge whether or not harsh interrogation techniques have worked or not - but it certainly did in Khalid's case. Now President Obama is on board with Rendition - maybe he NOW knows something that he did previously.

[Secretariat]

Sec, you really think warerboarding is a close cousin to beheading? Do you think if warerboarding was really torture that we would be subjecting our own troops to it.
Waterboarding saved american lives with absolutly no lasting harmful effects tothe terrorist. You libs, the unmasters of nuance and discernment...

"Is waterboarding a close cousin to beheading?"

Beheading is torture and murder. Waterboarding is torture. I don't know what you mean by a close cousin. I find both reprehensible.

"Do you think if waterboarding was really torture that we would be subjecting our own troops to it?"

We've subjected our troops to much worse. "In 1942 Chemical Warfare Services begins mustard gas experiments on approximately 4,000 servicemen."

http://www.rense.com/general36/history.htm

"Waterboarding saved american lives with absolutly no lasting harmful effects tothe terrorist. "

Perhaps, perhaps not.

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2007/12/18/zubaydah/

As Paul Harvey might say, "And now you know the rest of the story."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200711050006

An interesting tidbit.

"Cases of waterboarding have occurred on U.S. soil, as well. In 1983, Texas Sheriff James Parker was charged, along with three of his deputies, for handcuffing prisoners to chairs, placing towels over their faces, and pouring water on the cloth until they gave what the officers considered to be confessions. The sheriff and his deputies were all convicted and sentenced to four years in prison. "

Obviously Lefty, we'll never agree on this. You beleive in torture, I don't.

[Ned Locke]

He doesn't believe in torture. The problem is he doesn't understand how it makes everyone less safe. The concept is too complex for these type of people. Your dealing with the least common humanity denominator here. They'd be perfectly contented if we brutalized theirs and they brutalized ours and they brutalized theirs and we brutalized ours.

But I wouldn't worry about it because its over. The folks in D.C. now do understand why we can't be involved in such counter productive conduct.


"Is waterboarding a close cousin to beheading?"


Obviously Lefty, we'll never agree on this. You beleive in torture, I don't.

[PaceAdvantage]

But I wouldn't worry about it because its over. The folks in D.C. now do understand why we can't be involved in such counter productive conduct.To date, they've shown me they understand very little. And with the press in their back pocket, that's one very scary combination.

But telling you that is like telling the dog not to shit on the rug.

[raybo]

Roll of the Dice killings? Do you feel these type of strikes don't work?

"Retain" both International and Domestic support. BO has support? From whom? He hasn't done anything yet.

Bush Charade says alot about your attitude toward this whole thing. Do you really think the radical religious left wants anything to do with PEACE? My guess is that you are one of those that want to talk them out of the mountains and talk them out of their planning to kill Americans. When that works, please let us know. Until then we need to keep blowing their butts off the mountains. And I don't care which country they are hidding in.

Hasn't done anything yet? According to most who post here about our President he has done plenty, even before being elected and being sworn in, and according to all these haters, it's all bad.

[delayjf]

The problem is he doesn't understand how it makes everyone less safe. The concept is too complex for these type of people. Your dealing with the least common humanity denominator here. They'd be perfectly contented if we brutalized theirs and they brutalized ours and they brutalized theirs and we brutalized ours.

Ah yes, the superior intellect of the left. :lol:

In WWII, as American Soldiers advanced across France into Germany, German snipers started using tactics whereby they would shoot and approaching American Soldier and then immediately surrender. It didn't take long for the Americans to respond by to such tactics by shooting the snipers as they tried to surrender just moments after shooting an American Soldier. Guess what, the Germans got the word and this tactic stopped.

It's easy for you to sit in the comfort of your home not getting shot at and pontificate that those who are, that they should have to live up to YOUR standards of how to fight the enemy.

I would be a lot more sympathetic to your position if the US was sawing off the heads of these guys on al jazeera, but that is simply not the case. As bad as water boarding can be, once the guy catches his breath he's fine.

Ned, how does it feel to be a part of the mindset that our enemies are exploiting to defeat us. Tells us again about how patriotic you are for simply exercising your right to free speech - their might be a medal in it for you, or perhaps a plot in Arlington. :ThmbDown:

[Floyd]

It's easy for you to sit in the comfort of your home not getting shot at and pontificate that those who are, that they should have to live up to YOUR standards of how to fight the enemy.

I would be a lot more sympathetic to your position if the US was sawing off the heads of these guys on al jazeera, but that is simply not the case. As bad as water boarding can be, once the guy catches his breath he's fine.

Ned, how does it feel to be a part of the mindset that our enemies are exploiting to defeat us. Tells us again about how patriotic you are for simply exercising your right to free speech - their might be a medal in it for you, or perhaps a plot in Arlington. :ThmbDown:

You're saying that the only people who should have a say in the conduct of war are those directly involved in the fighting. That years of negotiations, treaties, and even our Constitution should take a back seat to the hunch of a grunt on the ground. That the Geneva Convention is just an inconvenient piece of paper, that our Constitution is only valid when it suits you. You are advocating the position that we are a nation of men, not laws, and the law can be ignored whenever it gets in the way. How does it feel to be advocating the same abhorrent actions that our enemies engage in? How does it feel to advocate ignoring the laws that make this country great? Tell us again how patriotic you are for ignoring everything that our forefathers fought and died for, in the name of mere political expediency - there might be some internet kudos for you, or perhaps a cell in prison.

[cj's dad]

Now you went and did it, Floyd's sending you to jail - oh the shame.

[delayjf]

That the Geneva Convention is just an inconvenient piece of paper, that our Constitution is only valid when it suits you.
Yeah, that's right
If our enemies will not adhere to the Geneva Convention than why should the US? Also, Our Constitution applies to American Citizens not to terrorists.
You are advocating the position that we are a nation of men, not laws, and the law can be ignored whenever it gets in the way. Again I have no problem following the Geneva Convention as long as our enemies reciprocate. If our enemies are willing to break “the law” as you put it – then they will have to pay the price.
How does it feel to be advocating the same abhorrent actions that our enemies engage in? Show me where I said the US should decapitate Terrorists on CNN. Water board is Hardly the equivalent to how the terrorists treat our POWs.
How does it feel to advocate ignoring the laws that make this country great?
The Geneva Convention did not make this country great. And I seriously doubt that Our forefathers or any generation since would not have tolerated similar barbaric acts had they been committed by our enemies at the time.
Tell us again how patriotic you are for ignoring everything that our forefathers fought and died for.
Very Patriotic and proud to have served like our forefathers who fought and died for the citizens of this country, not for the constitutional rights of the terrorists of the world.
in the name of mere political expediency - there might be some internet kudos for you, or perhaps a cell in prison. I think the military haters on the left would miss us – who else would they have to spit on then??

[Floyd]

Yeah, that's right
Show me where I said the US should decapitate Terrorists on CNN. Water board is Hardly the equivalent to how the terrorists treat our POWs.


Doesn't matter. Waterboarding is torture. That is a fact. You are advocating torturing people. If you had read the links I posted upthread you would know that torture is ineffective and counter-productive, in addition to being illegal and immoral. Your eye-for-an-eye philosophy has been discredited and shown to be against the best interests of the United States, and yet you continue to advocate that we sink to the level of our enemies. Why? Because torture is fun? What other reason is there to torture? Because they do it? For revenge? I'm happy that finally my government has taken a stand against barbarity, and that those who would torture other human beings for the sheer pleasure of doing so have no place in the United States military.

[PaceAdvantage]

If you had read the links I posted upthread you would know that torture is ineffective and counter-productive, in addition to being illegal and immoral. Your eye-for-an-eye philosophy has been discredited and shown to be against the best interests of the United States, and yet you continue to advocate that we sink to the level of our enemies.Yup. Ineffective. I can see that all around me. All those other buildings that were destroyed in New York City by radical Muslims after 9/11, and after Bush instituted all those policies which Obama now sees fit to destroy.

Yup, it's a shame I can't go into New York City anymore...all those buildings lying around all over the place, the result of our ineffective anti-terrorist policies, the ineffective water boarding and such.

All those tens of thousands of people killed post-9/11 on American soil due to Bush's completely ineffective "War on Terror" policies. Yup, indeed Floyd, I see the carnage all around me as I type this....a totally failed policy indeed...:rolleyes:

[Floyd]

Yup. Ineffective. I can see that all around me. All those other buildings that were destroyed in New York City by radical Muslims after 9/11, and after Bush instituted all those policies which Obama now sees fit to destroy.

Yup, it's a shame I can't go into New York City anymore...all those buildings lying around all over the place, the result of our ineffective anti-terrorist policies, the ineffective water boarding and such.

All those tens of thousands of people killed post-9/11 on American soil due to Bush's completely ineffective "War on Terror" policies. Yup, indeed Floyd, I see the carnage all around me as I type this....a totally failed policy indeed...
You're saying that torture saved lives? Do you have any proof for that assertion? Aside from the Bush regime's own assertions, that is. I mean independent studies pointing to the efficacy of torture in intelligence gathering, the amount of useful information gleaned from tortured subjects, anything?

Didn't think so. You just like the idea of torture, since it fulfills your testosterone fueled revenge fantasies.
I never realized the depths of depravity you folks harbor in your souls. I can only hope that your ilk have been forever banished to the fringes of public discourse, because your willingness to torture for no other reason than personal enjoyment disturbs me.

[JustRalph]

In Law Enforcement there is the principle of "use of force" and the ladder to follow. Officers are basically allowed to use "necessary force" to complete the task at hand. This means if a bad guy uses his fists, you use a baton, chemical mace, stun gun etc. If he escalates to a knive, the officer uses a gun. The ladder of use of force starts as low as "officer presence" "voice commands" etc. But the officer always uses one level above that of the suspect or bad guy. To complete the Arrest etc.

I look at Torture the same way. If they are going to cut off heads........all bets are off......... the Geneva Convention goes out the window (btw, it doesn't apply to terrorists anyway) and we can do anything we want to them.

I am for torture of terrorists.

I am for escalation up to an including "whatever it takes" if you go to war, you go to war. You don't play patty cake with the enemy. End of story.

[Floyd]

In Law Enforcement there is the principle of "use of force" and the ladder to follow. Officers are basically allowed to use "necessary force" to complete the task at hand. This means if a bad guy uses his fists, you use a baton, chemical mace, stun gun etc. If he escalates to a knive, the officer uses a gun. The ladder of use of force starts as low as "officer presence" "voice commands" etc. But the officer always uses one level above that of the suspect or bad guy. To complete the Arrest etc.

I look at Torture the same way. If they are going to cut off heads........all bets are off......... the Geneva Convention goes out the window (btw, it doesn't apply to terrorists anyway) and we can do anything we want to them.

I am for torture of terrorists.

I am for escalation up to an including "whatever it takes" if you go to war, you go to war. You don't play patty cake with the enemy. End of story.

I'm glad that your extreme opinions are only shared by an extremely radical fringe.

[PaceAdvantage]

You just like the idea of torture, since it fulfills your testosterone fueled revenge fantasies.Once again...a puddle of piss.

Why do I even bother injecting an alternate point of view to an already hardened (check that, hermetically sealed) mind?

FLOYD KNOWS ALL!

[delayjf]

Fred, fine, I get it. You are a Pacifist or an idealist or both.

Doesn't matter. Waterboarding is torture. How do you feel about solitary confinement a common practice in every US prison or four pointing an individual to a bed also common in US Prison systems? By your absolutist definition such practices would be considered torture and therefore the equivalent to a public beheading.
If you had read the links I posted upthread you would know that torture is ineffective and counter-productive,
I've read those links and they are opinion, I've given you ONE example where water boarding saved US lives. If the issue had left up to you, the terrorists attacks probably would have carried out and innocent Americans would have died. How do you reconcile what could be the potential loss of hundreds if not thousands of lives with water boarding?
and yet you continue to advocate that we sink to the level of our enemies.
Again, you’re putting words in my mouth. You see everything from an absolutist perspective. Water boarding is not on level with our enemies. Are you aware that our enemy doesn’t take Prisoners?
Why? Because torture is fun? What other reason is there to torture? Because they do it? For revenge?
No, I never said it was FUN, those are your words. The only reason to water board someone would be to extract information.
I'm happy that finally my government has taken a stand against barbarity, and that those who would torture other human beings for the sheer pleasure of doing so have no place in the United States military.
Are you sure? President Obama is on record to continue rendition. I don’t know where the CIA takes these guys but I can assure you it’s not Disney World.

[Floyd]

Once again...a puddle of piss.
You seem to have an obsession with piss.

Why do I even bother injecting an alternate point of view to an already hardened (check that, hermetically sealed) mind?
I am anxiously awaiting an alternate point of view from you. Really.

FLOYD KNOWS ALL!
Nope. But I'm pretty good at looking things up.

[Snag]

Hasn't done anything yet? According to most who post here about our President he has done plenty, even before being elected and being sworn in, and according to all these haters, it's all bad.

Ok, I'm wrong. Now please tell us all what our President has done that fits your position that there are those that feel it is "all bad".

By the way, BO says he now wants to send 17,000 troops to Afgan but also wants more time to study how many more troops to send. If he had the answers, why does he need more time to study the matter?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090219/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_afghanistan;_ylt=AvvqFZ0KyUA0awE6hUkYsRxI2ocA

[Floyd]

Fred, fine, I get it. You are a Pacifist or an idealist or both.
I'll let Fred respond to that, as I am neither.

How do you feel about solitary confinement a common practice in every US prison or four pointing an individual to a bed also common in US Prison systems? By your absolutist definition such practices would be considered torture and therefore the equivalent to a public beheading.
It doesn't matter what I "feel" about things, we have laws, torture has been defined and codified in law, waterboarding is torture. My "feelings" and "definitions" mean as little as yours. We have laws. You are condoning criminal acts.

I've read those links and they are opinion, I've given you ONE example where water boarding saved US lives. If the issue had left up to you, the terrorists attacks probably would have carried out and innocent Americans would have died. How do you reconcile what could be the potential loss of hundreds if not thousands of lives with water boarding?
You keep saying that. You haven't read the links. You're wrong about your one example. Our government lied about that, and the congressional hearings exposed that lie.

Again, you’re putting words in my mouth. You see everything from an absolutist perspective. Water boarding is not on level with our enemies. Are you aware that our enemy doesn’t take Prisoners?
I try to see things from a rational, legal perspective. Waterboarding is torture. We prosecuted the Japanese for waterboarding after WW2. Torture is well defined by the Geneva Convention, we have engaged in torture and it's wrong.

No, I never said it was FUN, those are your words. The only reason to water board someone would be to extract information.
But that doesn't work. It's been shown it doesn't work. The information we can "extract" through torture is useless. There is no reason to torture outside of revenge or recreation.


Are you sure? President Obama is on record to continue rendition. I don’t know where the CIA takes these guys but I can assure you it’s not Disney World.

Well, the administration is on record as saying "We don't torture." We'll just have to make sure they mean what they say.

[nijinski]

Lefty,

Torture is torture. Your argument is fallacious.

Hitler or Tojo may very well have made the same argument in WW 2. That torture saved their citizen's lives. Therefore, any information gained (false or real) is merited if a nation's citizens lives might be saved. Because captured Jews might have been part of the resistance, any technique is warranted that may have illicited any information. When our POW's were captured by the Japanese, any interrogation is permissible by them, because it may have saved their citizen's lives.

If waterboarding is indeed used as a training exercise, it speaks more to a serious problem with our training exercises than it does to any justification for torture.

Fortunately, your buddy John McCain is even on board with this one. You're still with Rush who escaped any possibilty of actually facing the potential for torture by having a boil on his butt during Nam.

Using Hitler for a comparison is way off.
Did you forget the medical experiments done on young children without anesthesia? He was quite proud of them, and what information could they have given up?

[PaceAdvantage]

You seem to have an obsession with piss.Hey, when you find the perfect descriptive definition, you stick with it...

[Secretariat]

Using Hitler for a comparison is way off.
Did you forget the medical experiments done on young children without anesthesia? He was quite proud of them, and what information could they have given up?

I totally agree with your statement. I'll amend it as follows:

Hitler or Tojo may very well have made the same argument in WW 2. That torture of adults saved their citizen's lives.

[Tom]

Next attack is solely on Obama and you guys....you are inviting it and we will hold YOU all responsible for it when it comes.

[delayjf]

You keep saying that. You haven't read the links. You're wrong about your one example. Our government lied about that, and the congressional hearings exposed that lie.
Below is the UNCLASSIFIED listing of the attacks that the Bush Admin claims were stopped by the Intel from captured terrorists.
Abu Zubaydah, Ramzi Binalshibh, and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed were taken into custody of the Central Intelligence Agency. The questioning of these and other suspected terrorists provided information that helped us protect the American people. They helped us break up a cell of Southeast Asian terrorist operatives that had been groomed for attacks inside the United States. They helped us disrupt an al Qaeda operation to develop anthrax for terrorist attacks. They helped us stop a planned strike on a U.S. Marine camp in Djibouti, and to prevent a planned attack on the U.S. Consulate in Karachi, and to foil a plot to hijack passenger planes and to fly them into Heathrow Airport and London's Canary Wharf."[50]

Show me where Congress proved that the above was a lie. I've looked and could find nothing.

[Secretariat]

[QUOTE=FloydWell, the administration is on record as saying "We don't torture." We'll just have to make sure they mean what they say.[/QUOTE]

I guess some of those administration officials are now changing their mind.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7903516.stm

"Ridge: We were wrong to torture

America's first homeland security secretary has accepted some criticisms of the US "war on terror" made in a recent report by legal experts.

Tom Ridge told the BBC that the report's attacks on extended detention and torture were justified.

But he also said the US had been dealing with a new kind of threat.

The report the International Commission of Jurists said anti-terror measures worldwide had seriously undermined international human rights law.

After a three-year global study, the ICJ said many states had used the public's fear of terrorism to introduce measures including detention without trial, illegal disappearance and torture. "

[Tom]

Your point?
One guy changed his mind.........doesn't change the fact that water boarding
was used successfully with no long term harm to anyone. Torture? To a woosie, maybe. I prefer to call it an intense shower. :D

[robert99]

I guess some of those administration officials are now changing their mind.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7903516.stm

"Ridge: We were wrong to torture

America's first homeland security secretary has accepted some criticisms of the US "war on terror" made in a recent report by legal experts.

Tom Ridge told the BBC that the report's attacks on extended detention and torture were justified.

But he also said the US had been dealing with a new kind of threat.

The report the International Commission of Jurists said anti-terror measures worldwide had seriously undermined international human rights law.

After a three-year global study, the ICJ said many states had used the public's fear of terrorism to introduce measures including detention without trial, illegal disappearance and torture. "

Waterboarding has been one of the milder of torture actions.
One British citizen who was arrested at a Pakistan airport for a passport violation has been in Gitmo for 5 years and twice rendered back to Morocco and Pakistan for "un_American" torture episodes which involved being hung upside down for days, weeks of continual sleep deprivation and slashing of genitals by razor blade. He has since been released back to UK without any shred of evidence of any original guilt. All the other so called terrorists from UK have also had to be released on re-entry to UK as there is no evidence provided by US to UK authorities that they have ever done anything wrong. If they have been tortured then it is illegal in UK to attempt to try them even if there were evidence against them. If there is any evidence then put them on trial - any "intelligence" they might or might not have had 5 years ago is well past its sale by date.

The issue about erosion of liberties in UK is a valid one - give the authorities any excuse and they will formulate and use laws against the free people that are their own law abiding citizens. Anti-terrorism laws have been cited by the UK authorities against Iceland when their banks failed; dog owners being filmed when their dogs foul the pavements and also people pretending to live in catchment areas where the schools are better quality. 1984 and Animal Farm are just slightly hidden behind the scenes.

The "conservatives" here are totally backing the wrong horse in supporting torture and detention without trial - its effects rebound right back on everyone who ever they though they were voting for freedom, the rule of law and personal liberty. They should be fighting against this episode with all their pent up fury.

[boxcar]

The issue about erosion of liberties in UK is a valid one - give the authorities any excuse and they will formulate and use laws against the free people that are their own law abiding citizens.

Get a clue already! The erosion of liberties in any society is an inevitable result of any socialist-oriented form of governing. The more power the state has, the less the people have. It's really that simple.

Boxcar

[robert99]

Get a clue already! The erosion of liberties in any society is an inevitable result of any socialist-oriented form of governing. The more power the state has, the less the people have. It's really that simple.

Boxcar

A dumb clue from the clueless.
So George III of Great Britain and Louis XVI of France were socialist-oriented forms of governing. An amazing concept.

The more power the people allow the state, the less power the people have. It really is that simple.

[boxcar]

A dumb clue from the clueless.
So George III of Great Britain and Louis XVI of France were socialist-oriented forms of governing. An amazing concept.

Not when you consider the source of this concept -- which is derived from you -- not me! What do monarchies have to do with socialism? How did you connect these two incongruous dots? :bang: :bang:

The more power the people allow the state, the less power the people have. It really is that simple.

This should be implicitly understood and, therefore, the obvious shouldn't have to be stated by anyone....but the clueless, of course.

Boxcar

[Secretariat]

Waterboarding has been one of the milder of torture actions.
One British citizen who was arrested at a Pakistan airport for a passport violation has been in Gitmo for 5 years and twice rendered back to Morocco and Pakistan for "un_American" torture episodes which involved being hung upside down for days, weeks of continual sleep deprivation and slashing of genitals by razor blade. He has since been released back to UK without any shred of evidence of any original guilt. All the other so called terrorists from UK have also had to be released on re-entry to UK as there is no evidence provided by US to UK authorities that they have ever done anything wrong. If they have been tortured then it is illegal in UK to attempt to try them even if there were evidence against them. If there is any evidence then put them on trial - any "intelligence" they might or might not have had 5 years ago is well past its sale by date.

The issue about erosion of liberties in UK is a valid one - give the authorities any excuse and they will formulate and use laws against the free people that are their own law abiding citizens. Anti-terrorism laws have been cited by the UK authorities against Iceland when their banks failed; dog owners being filmed when their dogs foul the pavements and also people pretending to live in catchment areas where the schools are better quality. 1984 and Animal Farm are just slightly hidden behind the scenes.

The "conservatives" here are totally backing the wrong horse in supporting torture and detention without trial - its effects rebound right back on everyone who ever they though they were voting for freedom, the rule of law and personal liberty. They should be fighting against this episode with all their pent up fury.

Good post. I hope the Republican support of torture continues. Seems like it's been working as a real winning political strategy for them.

[Lefty]

i guess you know the Obama Justice Department has declared that prisoners in Afghanistan cannot avail themselves of U.S. trials or any protection under the U.S. Constitution?

[Lefty]

We use waterboarding on our troops as a training exercise. So it's not logical to call it torture unless you think we torture our own troops. but it's been said before, so i guess the left just isn't into logical thinking.
I KNEW IT!

[Tom]

Pretty low of you sec, though not unexpected. We support tortures as a means to prevent terror attacks and protect innocent people from the likes of 9-11. You see only a political view of it. Tsk tsk tsk.

But I guess you support Obama's murdering of un-indicted people in Pakistan?

[raybo]

Get a clue already! The erosion of liberties in any society is an inevitable result of any socialist-oriented form of governing. The more power the state has, the less the people have. It's really that simple.

Boxcar

Isn't that what he was saying?

[raybo]

Not when you consider the source of this concept -- which is derived from you -- not me! What do monarchies have to do with socialism? How did you connect these two incongruous dots? :bang: :bang:



This should be implicitly understood and, therefore, the obvious shouldn't have to be stated by anyone....but the clueless, of course.

Boxcar

So, you're clueless, too?