View Full Version : Have any changes been made to protect the horses?
Lateralus
02-04-2009, 06:57 PM
I haven't watched or wagered on a race since Eight Belles broke down after running her magnificent final race. Eight Belles was the last straw for me. I'm just wondering if any meaningful changes (as in, changes that will actually WORK) have been implemented to protect the horses yet. I'd be surprised if anything more than lip service or tiny bandaid sized "fixes" have been put into place yet.
I know we beat the subject to death last time I was here, and I think in one thread alone we had enough ideas to nearly eliminate the problem entirely over time. Such changes would have been painful to the bottom line in the initial stages but years down the road would have resulted in a titanic financial boom for them eventually IMO. Unfortunately I doubt the people with the power to actually do something understand the concept of long term investment or delayed gratification. I hope I'm wrong, and they're actually taking aggressive steps to solve the problem. The horses deserve nothing less.
PaceAdvantage
02-04-2009, 07:17 PM
What you are asking is the equivalent of trying to eliminate traffic-related fatalities among humans. No matter how many airbags or seat belts you put in a car, people are still going to die.
The same with horses. They are built for speed, which is exactly what can kill them in the end.
If you want to make sure you never see another Eight Belles, then you must eliminate racing altogether.
As we have seen recently, even the artificial surfaces that have been put into place in some venues along with steroid bans have failed to eliminate breakdown clusters.
Lateralus
02-05-2009, 02:32 AM
What you are asking is the equivalent of trying to eliminate traffic-related fatalities among humans. No matter how many airbags or seat belts you put in a car, people are still going to die.
The same with horses. They are built for speed, which is exactly what can kill them in the end.
If you want to make sure you never see another Eight Belles, then you must eliminate racing altogether.
As we have seen recently, even the artificial surfaces that have been put into place in some venues along with steroid bans have failed to eliminate breakdown clusters.
I think the discussions here went beyond surfaces & steroid bans, but those are obviously good starts. Although with so much money at stake, just as with human athletes, drug tests can and will be beaten in horse racing. Also, just as with the Balco / Conte / Barry Bonds fiasco, there are likely designer drugs being used on horses that are presently unknown and therefore currently undetectable, just like "The Clear" was before Bonds was caught with it. Maybe lifetime bans would help the drug situation.
But drugs are only part of the problem. Ideas being discussed here included long term breeding programs to eventually breed out the Northern Dancer lines (and hopefully discover and push horses with "super sound" genetics), lighter racing for 2-3 yo, etc. I would go so far as to make the 3yo season the juvenile season and move the TC up to 4yo.
The car analogy is a good one, although as with horses there is great variance among cars as well, obviously. Some horses are about as sound as Yugos while others are as sturdy as full-sized heavy duty diesel work trucks. Of course, even the best engineered cars and trucks break if they are not properly maintained, and yes occassionaly even if they are superbly maintained. It's unavoidable, but could be kept to an absolute minimum however. My Uncle who is 72 and been a handicapper since his early 20's swears up and down that decades ago, breakdowns were a bare fraction of what they are today. If that's indeed the case, (I have no statistics on this - so no way to be sure if he is correct) then wouldn't there be a set of solveable problems that would allow us to at least return to the same breakdown rates as existed 40 years ago?
boomman
02-05-2009, 08:55 AM
If you have read my posts over the last few years, you will see that safety for the horses has always been a top priority for me. That's why I didn't have a problem with going to synthetic surfaces at the tracks that had proven records of unsafe conditions such as Del Mar and Arlington who were breaking down scores of horses each meet. And although it is clear that the synthetics haven't been by any stretch of the imagination perfect, I think they have reduced injuries overall, especially the numbers that I've seen at Turfway Park. I also don't think there's any questions that drugs, ESPECIALLY STEROIDS, have broken down the breed as a whole, and need to be eliminated forever. It would be dreaming to think they'll ever go back to simple hay and oats, but there's no question that there were less breakdowns in that day.......
Boomer
Lateralus
02-07-2009, 02:51 AM
I also don't think there's any questions that drugs, ESPECIALLY STEROIDS, have broken down the breed as a whole, and need to be eliminated forever.
Agree 100%. However, I would assume steroid use is likely rampant in the UK and Australia as well? I don't recall where, but I had read somewhere that breakdowns in the UK and Australia are a small % of what they are in the US. Don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, that would suggest the Northern Dancer lines are more at fault than steroids. But steroids need to be done away with regardless. They absolutely contribute to the problem, probably to a large degree.
In addition to an aggressive nationwide long-term program to breed out the Northern Dancer lines, NTRA should actively look for ALL current and future sires and dams that produce a high % of unsound offspring. Then, once those sires and dams are identified, any future offspring of theirs or their progeny should not be allowed to race, thus limiting that genetic line to existing horses.
It could take a couple of decades, but I don't see any reason why the problem could not only be reversed, but made better than ever once the sires and dams who produce fast but also super sound offspring are discovered. I'm sure there are horses out there who are built like glass and others built like steel (and everything in between), and we need to find and breed in the solid steel.
2 plus years ago I was a strapping young man-a cop of many years but young-I could run forever -lift big time weight--then boom gone--yesterday I was speaking with a geneticist---who said even in humans we can make advancements but sadly when the sommunity in in genetics or breeding attempts ((the God Role))) the role in fate good thing Never happen-----Mine may have been avoided but a worse scenario may have raised its ugly head..And the same could be said and is for the majestic animals that are bred to run---
somewhere there was a defect in me---the scientists // doc was saying somewhere there is a defect in everyone---there is NO super race of superior beings humans or horses----
Endsweep24
02-07-2009, 06:12 AM
But drugs are only part of the problem. Ideas being discussed here included long term breeding programs to eventually breed out the Northern Dancer lines (and hopefully discover and push horses with "super sound" genetics), lighter racing for 2-3 yo, etc. I would go so far as to make the 3yo season the juvenile season and move the TC up to 4yo.
Absolutely a bad Ideal I don't have the statistics handy but data over many years shows that horses that start at 2 run more times and have longer careers than horses that start at 3 and 4.
ralph_the_cat
02-07-2009, 11:28 AM
The jockey club and other organizations have been working on making horse racing safe for the past decade or so, well before Eight Belles... around 5-6 years ago, thats before even Barbaro for those that are bad at math, they started a program investigating breakdowns at 30 North American tracks... The on-going study proved what many have believed for years that front toe grabs are extremely harmful for horses, especially on the front end... Toe grabs in excess of 3/16ths lead all breakdowns... toe grabs of less than 1/8th inch came in a close second, and flat shoes or outer rims only had a few breakdowns compared to the others... by 06 their were publications all over about this study, this year, 09, toe grabs in excess of 2mm have been banned at most tracks, I believe its in the national policy as well, which should be utilized at all tracks in North America... Most of the horse racing industry saw this coming long before eight belles, it was in the works and was full of overwhelming evidence... I honestly think this was a great policy... toe grabs, even when the horse is at a rest, puts the ankle at an awful angle, adding more pressure on the ligaments and sesamoid... huge factor that directly relates with the forces put on the ankle...
some states, like PA, banned amacar, a drug used for bleeders, but proved to be more harmful over a longer period, it hurt more than helped... some say its bull, and it only hurts selected horses, but even if it only hurts selected horses over a period of a few years, it's still nice to see it gone, because Lasix and other drugs helped more anyways... why use a drug if its even in question, smart move...
Imriledup
02-07-2009, 09:09 PM
I think the discussions here went beyond surfaces & steroid bans, but those are obviously good starts. Although with so much money at stake, just as with human athletes, drug tests can and will be beaten in horse racing. Also, just as with the Balco / Conte / Barry Bonds fiasco, there are likely designer drugs being used on horses that are presently unknown and therefore currently undetectable, just like "The Clear" was before Bonds was caught with it. Maybe lifetime bans would help the drug situation.
But drugs are only part of the problem. Ideas being discussed here included long term breeding programs to eventually breed out the Northern Dancer lines (and hopefully discover and push horses with "super sound" genetics), lighter racing for 2-3 yo, etc. I would go so far as to make the 3yo season the juvenile season and move the TC up to 4yo.
The car analogy is a good one, although as with horses there is great variance among cars as well, obviously. Some horses are about as sound as Yugos while others are as sturdy as full-sized heavy duty diesel work trucks. Of course, even the best engineered cars and trucks break if they are not properly maintained, and yes occassionaly even if they are superbly maintained. It's unavoidable, but could be kept to an absolute minimum however. My Uncle who is 72 and been a handicapper since his early 20's swears up and down that decades ago, breakdowns were a bare fraction of what they are today. If that's indeed the case, (I have no statistics on this - so no way to be sure if he is correct) then wouldn't there be a set of solveable problems that would allow us to at least return to the same
breakdown rates as existed 40 years ago?
It all takes money.
Who's going to fund this stuff?
If you can come up with a surplus of money that racetrack owners don't need at the moment, maybe we can put that money to good use and strengthen the breed.
If you come up with an idea to make this a safer game and your idea is free, i'm sure people will listen.
If your idea takes money, than you have to not only come up with the idea, but you have to come up with the source of the money.
JPinMaryland
02-09-2009, 06:49 PM
>> My Uncle who is 72 and been a handicapper since his early 20's swears up and down that decades ago, breakdowns were a bare fraction of what they are today.
I dont believe this is true. There was a book written in the 1960s, it's on my shelf just not handy, and he said there was 1 breakdown per 400 starts in the US at that time. I dont think the number in the US is much different today.
In UK it is somewhat lower if I recall correctly. Perhaps we can take some tips from them.
slewis
02-09-2009, 11:20 PM
Agree 100%. However, I would assume steroid use is likely rampant in the UK and Australia as well? I don't recall where, but I had read somewhere that breakdowns in the UK and Australia are a small % of what they are in the US. Don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, that would suggest the Northern Dancer lines are more at fault than steroids. But steroids need to be done away with regardless. They absolutely contribute to the problem, probably to a large degree.
In addition to an aggressive nationwide long-term program to breed out the Northern Dancer lines, NTRA should actively look for ALL current and future sires and dams that produce a high % of unsound offspring. Then, once those sires and dams are identified, any future offspring of theirs or their progeny should not be allowed to race, thus limiting that genetic line to existing horses.
It could take a couple of decades, but I don't see any reason why the problem could not only be reversed, but made better than ever once the sires and dams who produce fast but also super sound offspring are discovered. I'm sure there are horses out there who are built like glass and others built like steel (and everything in between), and we need to find and breed in the solid steel.
Breed out the Northern Dancer lines?? Super sound offspring??
NTRA going to tell me I cant race a horse I breed?
Sir, your making some of the most obsurd comments I've ever read on this board, no the most obsurd comment (breed out the ND line.)
I'm just trying to save you from future embarrassment.
JPinMaryland
02-10-2009, 12:16 AM
Breed out Phalaris line too.
kenwoodallpromos
02-10-2009, 12:51 AM
Does today's equine medicine and medical advances allow previously injured TBreds to keep racing that may have been retired in the past?
kenwoodallpromos
02-10-2009, 01:04 AM
"Bowed Tendons: Causes & Treatments
By Kimberly A. Rinker
One of the most common cripplers of racehorses is an injury known as a "bowed tendon." ****In former times it was rare to see a horse with a bowed tendon return to racing, however, in the last few decades progressive surgical techniques have produced full recoveries from such an injury.
In the simplest terms, a bowed tendon is basically the result of tearing of the connecting tissue figures that comprise the superficial flexor tendon. The greatest majority of these tears occur in the middle third of the tendon of the front legs of a horse.
There are many factors, which may contribute to a bowed tendon, and they are as varied as is the degree of damage within the tendon itself. Fatigue resulting in over-flexion of the fetlock (Ankle) is one cause, and if a horse is moved from a relatively hard track to a deeper track, a bow can occur. A change in shoeing angles, lowering the heel, or the introduction of a toe grab are other ways, which could contribute to a bowed tendon. ****Often, just the wear and tear of racing over the years, combined with a bad misstep can cause a bow."
slewis
02-10-2009, 08:54 AM
"Bowed Tendons: Causes & Treatments
By Kimberly A. Rinker
One of the most common cripplers of racehorses is an injury known as a "bowed tendon." ****In former times it was rare to see a horse with a bowed tendon return to racing, however, in the last few decades progressive surgical techniques have produced full recoveries from such an injury.
In the simplest terms, a bowed tendon is basically the result of tearing of the connecting tissue figures that comprise the superficial flexor tendon. The greatest majority of these tears occur in the middle third of the tendon of the front legs of a horse.
There are many factors, which may contribute to a bowed tendon, and they are as varied as is the degree of damage within the tendon itself. Fatigue resulting in over-flexion of the fetlock (Ankle) is one cause, and if a horse is moved from a relatively hard track to a deeper track, a bow can occur. A change in shoeing angles, lowering the heel, or the introduction of a toe grab are other ways, which could contribute to a bowed tendon. ****Often, just the wear and tear of racing over the years, combined with a bad misstep can cause a bow."
I've been trying to provide the truth for those who's only exposure to this sport is from a gambling aspect but would like to learn a bit about the realities of owning/managing/breeding, etc.....
Once a horse bow's... you can forget it..... They MAY come back for a very short period... but 99% of the time... it ends the career.
Next, dont believe the BS regarding toe grabs causing or contributing to bows. Let me explain what a bow is. It's a tear of the digital flexor tendon which supports the cannon bone, the tendon behind that bone. To understand the process, curl your toes upward as much as possible, you should feel your calf and achillies tendon tighten. Now imagine so much force in that upward direction that your achillies tears. That's a bow. Obviously, the lower the heel goes OR if you raise the toes higher (by adding a toe grab), you increase the tension on the digital flexor, hence the theory that toe grabs cause bows.
But, I say B.S. Ogden Phipps and Stuart Janney, because the toe grab is SO SMALL (less than one sixtheenth of an inch) it does not significantly contribute to that dangerous angle that causes that injury.
Confirmation, shoeing angles and too HARD or Deep racetracks cause this problem. By the way.. the addition of Mud calks on a horse changes the dreaded angle IN A FAVORABLE DIRECTION (raising the heel) and allows the horse to grab and displace dirt EASIER (like a baseball player wearing cletes rounding second base) then a plain shoe, which has now been foolishly enforced at every racetrack by the a-hole powers that dictate this sport.
cj's dad
02-10-2009, 09:38 AM
If you have read my posts over the last few years, you will see that safety for the horses has always been a top priority for me. That's why I didn't have a problem with going to synthetic surfaces at the tracks that had proven records of unsafe conditions such as Del Mar and Arlington who were breaking down scores of horses each meet. And although it is clear that the synthetics haven't been by any stretch of the imagination perfect, I think they have reduced injuries overall, especially the numbers that I've seen at Turfway Park. I also don't think there's any questions that drugs, ESPECIALLY STEROIDS, have broken down the breed as a whole, and need to be eliminated forever. It would be dreaming to think they'll ever go back to simple hay and oats, but there's no question that there were less breakdowns in that day.......
Boomer
Regarding the synthetic tracks; Turfway park - the dust trail being left by the runners is quite noticable. It is the worst that I have seen. Looks like they are running on powder. Any explanation ?
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