Two more at SA, in the morning

[joanied]

I guess both these horses shouldn't have been in training in the first place...more sad news, regardless...what in hell is going on with SA's surface....time to get back to dirt? Something ain't right with the surface, and I am beginning to think they'll never figure it out. If I was training horses at SA....I'd be scared to death about my horses safety.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/printedition/la-sp-horses20-2009jan20,0,3633432.story

[MIplayer]

Joanied,

Too bad. I wonder to what extent the surface really is responsible? Isn't it all speculation really? I'd be surprised if the trend continues. Either way, I'm not sure if it is the right time for tracks to be experimenting with these surfaces. I'd be interested to look at some stats.

IMO, it seems like switching horses from pro-ride to dirt and vice versa is way too risky. This is one of the concerns I have for this year's Derby. Will we have any horses running on dirt for the first time? Nobody can control the horse's perception of the surface. If a horse is used to pro-ride, would that make them run different on dirt, increasing the chances of an injury? It seems like there could be some mishap with transitioning between surfaces. I'd be curious to compare injuries with horses who switched surfaces, even if they only worked on one and raced on another.

[Charlie D]

I guess both these horses shouldn't have been in training in the first place



I guess so too, but people will proably ignore the soundness issues etc and blame the surface, be it Dirt or Synthetic

[joanied]

MIplayer & Charlie D,

Blaming the surface these days seems to be the way to go...although, in most cases, the surface is probably the reason...in the case of these latest breakdowns at SA....it's been admitted the surface has changed...but, IMO...at least half the breakdowns (on any surface at any track) are more likeley happening because the horse's involved are not sound in the first place...I asume it'll be a couple of years before 'breakdown' stats will come into play...it's all too new to have any kind of a handle on the why's and why not's.

As for the Triple Crown races, actually all races....if a trainer has a horse that is about to switch surfaces (synthetic to dirt and visa-versa) I'd hope the trainer is wise enough to ship early and get the horse over the new surface several times before it races on it.

[Charlie D]

.at least half the breakdowns (on any surface at any track) are more likeley happening because the horse's involved are not sound in the first place

I suspect "other issues" are probably a decent contributor to attrition rate and think those crying out need proabably to look more inward

$$$$$ make some people do things that are iffy

[joanied]

I suspect "other issues" are probably a decent contributor to attrition rate and think those crying out need proabably to look more inward

$$$$$ make some people do things that are iffy

I agree.

[twindouble]

Horse player are very good when it comes to speculation. Heck we do that every time we pick up the form. Someone is going to be right.:jump:

All I can say is, prior to synthic tracks we all were blaming breeding, drugs and running unsound horses for breakdowns. I'm still inclined to think that's right.

T.D.

[Bruddah]

Horse player are very good when it comes to speculation. Heck we do that every time we pick up the form. Someone is going to be right.:jump:

All I can say is, prior to synthic tracks we all were blaming breeding, drugs and running unsound horses for breakdowns. I'm still inclined to think that's right.

T.D.

running on Dirt tracks. Hence the "jump" to synthetics without any studies or real statistics. I don't know of Breeding changes and damned few Drug changes. I said it before, the Synthetic Craze, and I will say it again will be the ruin of American Racing. These plastic tracks, with all their false promises (lies) will eventually go the way of Astro Turf in footbal. Unfortunately, the powers to be in Horse Racing have such a determined and now a vested interest in Globalization of the sport, they will drag down the whole House of Cards, before admitting their mistakes. :ThmbDown:

[Bobzilla]

Horse player are very good when it comes to speculation. Heck we do that every time we pick up the form. Someone is going to be right.:jump:

All I can say is, prior to synthic tracks we all were blaming breeding, drugs and running unsound horses for breakdowns. I'm still inclined to think that's right.

T.D.

I would agree as it wouldn't appear at this time, 3 Years and 4 Months into North America's synthetic experience, that any one of these brands of AWS is worth a sweet damn when it comes to masking American racing's "TRUE" uglies such as running unsound drugged up animals bred disproportionately towards the brilliant end of the breeding spectrum.

I cannot imagine the attrition rate in Europe being the same on their Polytrack or Fibersand surfaces as it is here and it probably would not be the same if they were running on traditional dirt in the U.K. as well. The breakdown problem here in America says more about our track culture than it does about any intrinsic safety deficiencies of our traditional dirt surfaces. Our dirt surfaces have been unnecessarily yet conveniently maligned during this entire mockery. This is too bad as dirt surface varieties still remain the true medium by which we gauge the performances of all our good horses, past, present and hopefully future, and have provided the stage for many of the game's most thrilling moments, moments which allowed us to enjoy the exploits of Kelso and Dr. Fager and for them the promise of enjoying a life after racing rather than being shipped for slaughter so they could end up on some European's dining table. We lose more than many seem to realize when we acquiesce so easily to the almost tyrannical whims of those few who wish to completely alter our game for their misguided desire of an universal surface. Yeah, one surface, wouldn't that make racing more interesting...And all this in the name of safety so that any meaningful and intelligent debate can be immediately stifled as they move forward with their own agenda.

[twindouble]

running on Dirt tracks. Hence the "jump" to synthetics without any studies or real statistics. I don't know of Breeding changes and damned few Drug changes. I said it before, the Synthetic Craze, and I will say it again will be the ruin of American Racing. These plastic tracks, with all their false promises (lies) will eventually go the way of Astro Turf in footbal. Unfortunately, the powers to be in Horse Racing have such a determined and now a vested interest in Globalization of the sport, they will drag down the whole House of Cards, before admitting their mistakes. :ThmbDown:

Bruddah; When it comes to horses breaking down, dirt tracks were never exempt from it, that's for sure. Attempting to create a better safer surface was an acceptable endeavor. I would assume the stats that existed at the time were strong enough to sell the idea of new materials. To blame breakdowns on just one factor, "surface" is off base in my opinion. I doubt very much that's what you meant. That would be like saying a cough is only caused by a cold. If they haven't done it yet, there should be a more indepth study as to why horses are breaking down at a higher rate, if that's the case. To me anything they do to improve safty for the horses is fine with me, including the jocks.

Regards,

T.D.

[hibiscus]

I don’t think anyone is really blaming the tracks for the recent breakdowns and deaths. I think a more accurate assessment is that these synthetic tracks certainly don’t reduce these types of injuries and the suggestion to the otherwise is now an exposed myth. The CHRB’s kneejerk mandate for all racetracks to swap out their dirt courses was obviously ill-conceived and sad. At a cost of $10 million per racetrack there’s no question that this money would have been better spent elsewhere or squirreled away. To have passed such a mandate after only a few months of data from one racetrack (Turfway Park) was nothing more than reckless decision making. It’s probably best that Mr. Shiapiro has retired from the CHRB because it’s looking like the data will soon prove that the folly of forcing the racetracks to waste tens of millions of dollars was painfully irresponsible. I imagine that he would have eventually come under a great deal of pressure so having him off the board will save himself a lot of aggravation. Perhaps over time the true dirt will replace the synthetics. It would amount to gigantic wastes of money playing musical surfaces but, if true dirt tracks can be brought back, the tradition of the game can be restored and maintained.

[PaceAdvantage]

When they break down on dirt, it's the "surface" (we were told this at Del Mar and Arlington a few years ago...)

When they break down on synthetics, it's the breeding, the training, the vet, the trainer, the jock...anything but the surface....

[twindouble]

I don’t think anyone is really blaming the tracks for the recent breakdowns and deaths. I think a more accurate assessment is that these synthetic tracks certainly don’t reduce these types of injuries and the suggestion to the otherwise is now an exposed myth. The CHRB’s kneejerk mandate for all racetracks to swap out their dirt courses was obviously ill-conceived and sad. At a cost of $10 million per racetrack there’s no question that this money would have been better spent elsewhere or squirreled away. To have passed such a mandate after only a few months of data from one racetrack (Turfway Park) was nothing more than reckless decision making. It’s probably best that Mr. Shiapiro has retired from the CHRB because it’s looking like the data will soon prove that the folly of forcing the racetracks to waste tens of millions of dollars was painfully irresponsible. I imagine that he would have eventually come under a great deal of pressure so having him off the board will save himself a lot of aggravation. Perhaps over time the true dirt will replace the synthetics. It would amount to gigantic wastes of money playing musical surfaces but, if true dirt tracks can be brought back, the tradition of the game can be restored and maintained.

I can apperciate maintaining racings triditions, that's another subject. Safty for horses and jocks should be top priority. As a handicapper many things have changed over the years and I along with everyone else had to adapt. There's nothing I would like better than go back to the "real dirt' tracks that I started out with, mud was mud, heavy was heavy, good was good. I'll never see that again. I'm well adjusted to synthetic tracks, including so-called dirt tracks that go from sly to fast in one card. I often wonder how the great horses of the past would run on today's dirt tracks. Well, we'll never know.

I do agree certain triditions should never be changed.

T.D.

[MIplayer]

Joanie,

What I'm thinking is, if a horse is used to working and racing on pro-ride and comes into a dirt race with 3 or 4 previous starts on the fake stuff, are a few works on dirt really enough to familiarize that horse with the surface for a race? It just seems like there would be a possibility that during a quick move or stretch drive the footing might slip up a bit. How much can working on dirt prepare a horse for a dirt race when they are only experienced on synthetic? Just thoughts.

[Bruddah]

When they break down on dirt, it's the "surface" (we were told this at Del Mar and Arlington a few years ago...)

When they break down on synthetics, it's the breeding, the training, the vet, the trainer, the jock...anything but the surface....

NoDouble, this is exactly what my post was referring to. Only PA said it better and more accurately. Thank you both for your replies. :ThmbUp:

[Show Me the Wire]

When they break down on dirt, it's the "surface" (we were told this at Del Mar and Arlington a few years ago...)

When they break down on synthetics, it's the breeding, the training, the vet, the trainer, the jock...anything but the surface....


Speaking from personal knowledge, the surface due to the crumbling base was the problem at Arlington. Big problems especially after a heavy rain. Unfortunately, there were many rainy days that season.

Of course there are always injuries due to unsoundness. However, animals cannot speak in human language and tell us if they have a physical issues,

[twindouble]

NoDouble, this is exactly what my post was referring to. Only PA said it better and more accurately. Thank you both for your replies. :ThmbUp:

Brud'dah; I have a tendency to drift out with my replies. No foul intended if I get off subject now and then or speak in general terms. PA did make his point very clear. Anyway some trainers are very much in support of Pro-Ride, Cushion, Tapeta and Polytrack and they liked working their horses out on them. If I remember right the biggest complaint trainers had begin with was those materials didn't favor speed. Others said they thought they were safer. How this is going to wash out is beyond me so players have to is figure out how to handicap them. I've found by sticking to my basic handicapping skills it worked out.

T.D.

[Endsweep24]

One thing I see that has been failed to mention Here one of the horses that broke down was on the Vets list. And the other on the Stewards list for Poor Performance. Don't blame the tracks, IMO the trainers should have some explaining to do.

[joanied]

Joanie,

What I'm thinking is, if a horse is used to working and racing on pro-ride and comes into a dirt race with 3 or 4 previous starts on the fake stuff, are a few works on dirt really enough to familiarize that horse with the surface for a race? It just seems like there would be a possibility that during a quick move or stretch drive the footing might slip up a bit. How much can working on dirt prepare a horse for a dirt race when they are only experienced on synthetic? Just thoughts.

MIplayer....I beleive a horse coming from a synthetic surface to dirt would benefit from a week's worth of traveling over the dirt in the morning before he actually races on it...remember last year for the BC, quite a few trainers that would not normally ship in so soon, did...because they had horses entered that never felt that surface under thier feet...happens all the time, even when switching from one dirt track to another dirt track, it's always a good practice to let your horse feel the new surface in the morning first.

[MIplayer]

Joanied,

That's a good point, no two surfaces are really the same anyways. As others have stated here, I think there are usually other factors in an injury then the surface most of the time, unless the track is sloppy, etc. I've heard people say an off track doesn't increase the breakdown rate, but it seems like I've seen sloppy tracks lead to more injuries, just a personal observation.

Endsweep,

I wonder if trainers were somehow penalized per breakdown if it would lower the stats? I'm not saying this would be a good idea, training horses is a tough job and they don't need to deal with more bs...but I wonder if some trainers would choose not to run a questionable horse if there were more consequences.

[JustRalph]

I wonder if trainers were somehow penalized per breakdown if it would lower the stats? I'm not saying this would be a good idea, training horses is a tough job and they don't need to deal with more bs...but I wonder if some trainers would choose not to run a questionable horse if there were more consequences.


I say a fine based on the value of the horse might be an interesting thought? In claiming ranks only..........

[joanied]

One thing I see that has been failed to mention Here one of the horses that broke down was on the Vets list. And the other on the Stewards list for Poor Performance. Don't blame the tracks, IMO the trainers should have some explaining to do.

I did mention that a few of those horses should not have been raced in the first place...vets list, poor performance...

every track IS different, MIplayer...thus a good reason for trainers to ship in early and have their horse(s) train over the new surface...wether it be rubber or dirt....

the suggestion of a fine is food for thought....but, I beleive something like that might be more effective if the track vets were the one's being fined...afterall, they are the ones that are telling a trainer wether or not a certain horse is sound enough to race...or, better yet, fines for both th attending vet and the trainer.

[PaceAdvantage]

One thing I see that has been failed to mention Here one of the horses that broke down was on the Vets list. And the other on the Stewards list for Poor Performance. Don't blame the tracks, IMO the trainers should have some explaining to do.Was great care taken to verify such matters when horses were breaking down at Del Mar and Arlington a few years ago? I see from SMTW's reply that there is evidence that the track was most likely the factor in the Arlington breakdowns, but is that the fault of DIRT or is it the fault of BAD RACETRACK MANAGEMENT?

I detest how artificial surfaces have been pushed down the throat of players under the false banner of animal and jockey welfare.

[twindouble]

Was great care taken to verify such matters when horses were breaking down at Del Mar and Arlington a few years ago? I see from SMTW's reply that there is evidence that the track was most likely the factor in the Arlington breakdowns, but is that the fault of DIRT or is it the fault of BAD RACETRACK MANAGEMENT?

I detest how artificial surfaces have been pushed down the throat of players under the false banner of animal and jockey welfare.

PA; I can't imagine anyone in management saying lets spend ten million just to piss the players off. If there were others that held a gun to their heads, I'd like to know who they are. Do you think the politicians along with animal rights organizations had that much influence on the decision? Is that where your coming from?


T.D.

[PaceAdvantage]

I am coming from the angle that there was some serious LOBBYING going on for the installation of artificial surfaces from some very powerful people in the racing industry.

They then used the club of "Animal and Jockey safety" to ram it home after a cluster of breakdowns at Del Mar and Arlington.

As we have seen lately, these cluster of breakdowns continue, even on the vaunted artificial surfaces.

[WinterTriangle]

I detest how artificial surfaces have been pushed down the throat of players under the false banner of animal and jockey welfare.

I thought it was to provide a consistent surface that would attract more stables to race...( i.e., AQ can get Keenland and other shippers), and because it has climatic tolerance under different weather conditions....thus maintenance is much easier.

Both of these things seem like they would increase track participation and save $?


Conversely, couldn't one say that the largest component of anti-poly are those who have a stake in not having a surface change? Handicapping information rendered useless..... like Beyer, prefer no change in surface because it might kill his angle, noted track biases, etc.. Ditto the handicappers who want to do it the way they always have, and don't want to adjust their style. Or some trainers--- like when Asmussen blamed poly for Pyro's failures.

Personally, I'd love to see more breeding for stamina and durability, not speed, which is what I think the future holds as more tracks become poly.

[Bruddah]

I am coming from the angle that there was some serious LOBBYING going on for the installation of artificial surfaces from some very powerful people in the racing industry.

They then used the club of "Animal and Jockey safety" to ram it home after a cluster of breakdowns at Del Mar and Arlington.

As we have seen lately, these cluster of breakdowns continue, even on the vaunted artificial surfaces.

disagree on many things, but with this I say, AMEN BRUDDAH!!

PA is telling the Truth and nothing but the Truth. Simply put, these surfaces were sold under false pretenses, without adequate studies to verify the real problems, causes and cures. The hidden "long term" agenda was the Globalization of Thoroughbred Horse Racing, starting with the Breeders Cup competitions.

Never the less, it was all smoke and mirrors. :ThmbDown:

[twindouble]

disagree on many things, but with this I say, AMEN BRUDDAH!!

PA is telling the Truth and nothing but the Truth. Simply put, these surfaces were sold under false pretenses, without adequate studies to verify the real problems, causes and cures. The hidden "long term" agenda was the Globalization of Thoroughbred Horse Racing, starting with the Breeders Cup competitions.

Never the less, it was all smoke and mirrors. :ThmbDown:

Sounds like Washington but only on a much smaller scale. They throw out billions and sit back and say "lets see what happens". Never taking their dirty thieving hands of the money.

Who got what in this case?

T.D.

[Show Me the Wire]

The problem at AP was the track and not the maintenance. The track superintendent was fantastic, he groomed the course meticulously. He would walk the track and hand measure across the track the depth of the track with a ruler.

[Bruddah]

The problem at AP was the track and not the maintenance. The track superintendent was fantastic, he groomed the course meticulously. He would walk the track and hand measure across the track the depth of the track with a ruler.

the track or the base? I say it was the base and many others say it was, as well. If the same amount of money, time and effort had been spent on those dirt tracks from the base up, there wouldn't haven'y been a need to EXPERIMENT with the "plastic stuff". However, since the "plastic stuff" was being used in England, the Powers in American Racing thought it would be an ideal surface to get the Euros to come to America for the Breeders Cup. Problem was, How do we get it installed at American tracks. Obviously, they found the answer to that simple question. Jam it down their throats under the name of Safety and less maintenance. However, it usually doesn't take long for a lie(s) to come to the surface. (pun intended)

You have to remember the World bought into this Globalization of the World Economy. It was natural for the "Blue Bloods" in this Industry to think American Horse Racing should follow suit. Mainly because, many were making their fortunes in a World Business Economy.

A few people recognized this whole thing for what it was worth, A Big Economic Bust in the long run. The only question was, when? Both the World Business Economy and the plastic racing surfaces were built on imagined benefits and economies of scale. Just like the Law of Gravity, 'what goes up must come down". It only comes down harder and faster if built on lies and false assumptions.

[twindouble]

the track or the base? I say it was the base and many others say it was, as well. If the same amount of money, time and effort had been spent on those dirt tracks from the base up, there wouldn't haven'y been a need to EXPERIMENT with the "plastic stuff". However, since the "plastic stuff" was being used in England, the Powers in American Racing thought it would be an ideal surface to get the Euros to come to America for the Breeders Cup. Problem was, How do we get it installed at American tracks. Obviously, they found the answer to that simple question. Jam it down their throats under the name of Safety and less maintenance. However, it usually doesn't take long for a lie(s) to come to the surface. (pun intended)

You have to remember the World bought into this Globalization of the World Economy. It was natural for the "Blue Bloods" in this Industry to think American Horse Racing should follow suit. Mainly because, many were making their fortunes in a World Business Economy.

A few people recognized this whole thing for what it was worth, A Big Economic Bust in the long run. The only question was, when? Both the World Business Economy and the plastic racing surfaces were built on imagined benefits and economies of scale. Just like the Law of Gravity, 'what goes up must come down". It only comes down harder and faster if built on lies and false assumptions.


The idea of world trade is nothing new, go back as far as you want in history, trade is what built great civilizations and brought prosperity to others. Greed, power and the lack of a conscience is what always destroys anything good. Not everything that human's experiment with works out but to continue to defend something that isn't working is ignorance beyond the pale, it will fall on it's own. That's what you have to look forward to if your right.



T.D.

[Bruddah]

The idea of world trade is nothing new, go back as far as you want in history, trade is what built great civilizations and brought prosperity to others. Greed, power and the lack of a conscience is what always destroys anything good. Not everything that human's experiment with works out but to continue to defend something that isn't working is ignorance beyond the pale, it will fall on it's own. That's what you have to look forward to if your right.



T.D.


Sir, the concept of Trade is as old as man. A one World Economy is as new as the Internet. Trade is but a piece of that pie, albeit an integral piece.

[Show Me the Wire]

Bruddah:

You may want to review my post #16. before you take me to task. My point was the track itself was dangerous and it needed to be replaced.

AP opted for an AWS, probably because it was more economical than putting in the infrastructure for a dirt track.

[Bruddah]

Bruddah:

You may want to review my post #16. before you take me to task. My point was the track itself was dangerous and it needed to be replaced.

AP opted for an AWS, probably because it was more economical than putting in the infrastructure for a dirt track.

I was not meaning to take anyone to task. In fact my last post was meant only to point out that trade is only one facet making up an Economy, whether it be National or Global. I apologize to all, if I offended.

[twindouble]

Sir, the concept of Trade is as old as man. A one World Economy is as new as the Internet. Trade is but a piece of that pie, albeit an integral piece.

Bruddah; I would like to get your thoughts on this "one world economy" you think exists. Or are you saying that's the trend we are on? Maybe you can express yourself in another thread. Off topic.


Thanks,

T.D.

[toetoe]

I have told you people ad nauseam that the culprit is global warming.


Okay, gimme my Nobel Prize, please. Okay, how about an Eclipse ? :rolleyes:

[WinterTriangle]

So add another one to the list:

Spenditallbaby --- Abram's horse broke down in the Sunshine Millions Distaff and had to be vanned off. Two fractured sesamoids surgery on Friday.

[joanied]

So add another one to the list:

Spenditallbaby --- Abram's horse broke down in the Sunshine Millions Distaff and had to be vanned off. Two fractured sesamoids surgery on Friday.

I beleive there was two...her stablemate also.
Very sad. Very bad.