Anyone take Woodbine seriously?

[The Bit]

Most of you know my disdain for the racing at Woodbine. If I could sum it up in one race, it would be tonight's 10th, the open pace.

They let Ramagade Bruiser go 27.1 - 56.3 - 126.0 - 1.53.1

That's right! A brutal 58.4 middle half for the top horses on the grounds!

I don't bet it hardly at all any longer and this is why. You can't beat 4-5's when you give them 3/4 in 126.

And yes, I realize the track is "good". 126 is slow in 6 inches of mud.

[Sea Biscuit]

Most of you know my disdain for the racing at Woodbine. If I could sum it up in one race, it would be tonight's 10th, the open pace.

They let Ramagade Bruiser go 27.1 - 56.3 - 126.0 - 1.53.1

That's right! A brutal 58.4 middle half for the top horses on the grounds!

I don't bet it hardly at all any longer and this is why. You can't beat 4-5's when you give them 3/4 in 126.

And yes, I realize the track is "good". 126 is slow in 6 inches of mud.

It was a short field and that is exactly what happens in short fields. Nobody wants to come first over.

Its at least better than The Meadowlands where they go slow poke races and come home in the fastest last quarters. I have seen races where they go 58 or 59 in a 53 mile. I can show you $5000 claimers at Windsor who go faster than that in the front end.

The best you can do with short fields is to sit out the race.

Have yourself a nice evening or whats left of it.

Sea Biscuit.

[Overcall]

Last week the open went in 154 in +8 varience

[The Bit]

It was a short field and that is exactly what happens in short fields. Nobody wants to come first over.

Its at least better than The Meadowlands where they go slow poke races and come home in the fastest last quarters. I have seen races where they go 58 or 59 in a 53 mile. I can show you $5000 claimers at Windsor who go faster than that in the front end.

The best you can do with short fields is to sit out the race.

Have yourself a nice evening or whats left of it.

Sea Biscuit.

You know what is funny, I could complain about the 1st division of the Presidential tonight at the Meadowlands. Almost the same scenario.

It isn't as nearly as common at M1 though.

The top trotters went 56.4 to the half tonight at Woodbine.

[LottaKash]

Well guys, for me, it's just COLD WINTERTIME Racing...and that explains much, much of the time.....Some horses just stop when they take in that cold, cold air...1st over horses are really up against it, when it is this cold.......

And, in the top-ranks, when 1-horse has been dominating the class, slow splits are usually in order, and then it just becomes a sprint to the wire.....I believe that is why clever drivers set sail at the right time to get the 2d prize against the monster.......

best,

[The Bit]

LK,

I disagree. I think in general, stakes races aside, the racing at Woodbine/Mohawk tends to be follow the leader. No one pulls, no one challenges anyone.

I'm obviously not the only one who sees it, they implemented the 7/8th races because they were hoping to get more action within the running of the race. When the brass admits the racing isn't good, it is real bad.

[Sea Biscuit]

LK,

I disagree. I think in general, stakes races aside, the racing at Woodbine/Mohawk tends to be follow the leader. No one pulls, no one challenges anyone.

I'm obviously not the only one who sees it, they implemented the 7/8th races because they were hoping to get more action within the running of the race. When the brass admits the racing isn't good, it is real bad.


I can't really agree with you Bit.

When they introduced the 7/8th races they must have quickly realized what a big mistake it was. The outside horses in the 8th, 9th and 10th hole had no chance to score because of the short run up to the first turn just like a 1/2 mile track and with the shortened 1/8th distance they had even less chance to come from behind. I for one am glad they decided to discontinue these races. Woodbine in my humble opinion has an excellent product and they should not monkey around with it.

On the other hand I can't say the same thing for The Big M with their boat races.

Sea Biscuit.

Note: I have always wondered if they had shortened the distance from the stretch at least it would have given the outside horses a chance to take good early position and be in a striking position.Now that would have been something. Every horse would be forced to go to the top or pay the consequences. Something to think about.

[The Bit]

If they have such a great product, why did they experiment with the 7/8th races and send out a press release listing reasons why they decided to try it?

When Somebeach first come to M1 some of the M1 driving colony made light of the flow of the races in Canada.

[The Bit]

Jeezed I missed the boat race at the Meadowlands comment. I couldn't disagree more. We simply can't be watching the same racing.

Just a few comments found around the internet about the WEG racing and even some comparing WEG and M1. Obviously you are in the minority Sea Bisquit.

""Hey all,

I agree that WEG drivers are overly conservative - too many sitting on the cones.

But it can't be the driver's fault! Aren't the drivers worried that the trainers and owners will complain if the driver gets parked-out or burned in a fast quarter?

From what I recall, Doug Brown became known as a driver that was too hard on the horses.

So my quetion is, why is racing different at the Medowlands? Why do Pierce, Dube, Tetrick, Brennan and others have the green light to take a shot down the backstretch?

In fact, the backstretch at Woodbine might as well be covered by a tent: nothing to look at but horses running in a straight line . ""

---

""The drivers are not conservative. It has become the norm now that they goes like he// to the quarter and sit like ducks in a row down the backside ango like he// in the last quarter. I forget the last time I bet Woodbine in a mile race. I wish they would be democratic and be a little more liberal on the quality horses. It might not be a cure for insomnia when watching replays. ""

---

""There is more action at the pig races at a county fair!

I especially love it when, after a quarter in about 26 or 27 secs the tempo slows to a 30 or 31 second clip and horses in the backfield are gapping. The horse sitting last is about about 25 lengths out of it.

Calling woodbine the fastest half miler in the world is an insult to all half mile tracks!!Atleast guys are out and GOING at the quarter on the half milers. ""

---

""you're correct about the fast-slow-slow-fast quarters, but that is the 'conservative' driving strategy that they almost always use. why are there so few drivers moving at the quarter pole, or at the half?

to make the point clear, Pierce, Tetrick and Morgan can drive aggressively, why not our guys? ""

---

""i dont even bet weg anymore, i used to go to greenwood every night, and get a ride to the hawk as a teen.....
I agree Zeeguides.I have just about given up on betting weg as well.Like someone else said,to the front in 26,second quarters in 31 and still the last 4 or 5 horses are usually gapped out.It's just to boring. ""

---

""I know exactly what you mean Kort.But seriously,have you ever seen a race,(no matter what the field)where they raced single file for 7/8s?You wouldn't see this at the Meadowlands. ""

---

""It never ceases to amaze me how everyone lets each other go at Woodbine. Sometimes I just don't understand, I watch almost every race that goes at Woodbine and once the gate leaves it's the same story, someone sends to the front, Joe Blow comes first up and takes over, someone else motors on the outside and whoever is using his cover tips out 20 wide down the lane and wins. The horses that made the front early on? Still going.. ""

[Sea Biscuit]

I have no quarrel with you Bit.

We all have our preferential tracks. You like the Meds and I like the Woodbine/Mohawk circuit. Thats all there is to it. Now we can sit down and argue untill the moon turns blue, and we won't get no where.

My very best to you

Sea Biscuit.

[LottaKash]

This time of the year, all that are racing, or so it seems sometimes, are the sick, lame and lazy, or the wannabee winners that couldn't make it earlier in the year.....This makes for many one-sided affairs...

Other than that, I do believe, that the WEG people do need to make a change of some sort.....It is true, about the running styles and mindset among these drivers, as they seem almost dis-interested at times.....

Perhaps they could change the Start & Finish Markers, to stir up the way they start and finish races.....I mean for a big track, the last part of the race fractions are so opposite of the Meadowlands, or even Mohawk........It makes for a more predictable race, at low odds that is, but it is oh so boring.....

That is why, come Stakes-racing time, I always love to see the Big-M drivers come up north and steal the money that should rightly go to the local driver colony......I think that proves the point about more aggressive racing, and how it adds to the excitement of the sport......The Meadowlands racetrack, win or lose, is almost always a very exciting place to watch a race.......

best,

[The Bit]

Apparently the WEG judges recently had a sit down with the driving colonly about the slow paces and the boat races ( giving holes, etc. ). I doubt anything will change.

[camfella]

I like both places, some scattered impressions and some truths about the racing at both,overall the racing product is much better to watch at M1,but the horses class for class are not as good as those at Weg, shippers do quite well at M1,from Weg.
The cultures are much different, M1 is much more aggressive, once it becomes the norm,they all fall into it or lose every race, In truth it makes it harder to handicap, and good horses lose. Horses used hard can get caught right at the end or make a good move and get shuffled to last...but it is more fun to watch for sure.
Woodbine in particular, has a longer run to the turn,if you are not quick off the gate (saturday there were multiple 25 second first quarters), or use hard to save rail position, you are pretty much done. the reasons? Well' first of all these guys know that pulling from 2nd or 3rd is a poor move in relation to staying in,where you can get lucky, you are hard pressed to see anyone who has done it who wins much...not exciting..but reality, so they sit in. The exception is a weak horse with the lead,they will often pull on these,but rarely a strong favorite, they know through experience it has a low success rate. When the 4th horse in line stays in,that really drives me crazy,but it works enough times to be worth it as opposed to being first over. A move you will often see is a driver not coming out,but waiting for someone else to go first over, then trying to get on his back or drive up the rail ,waiting for the outside horses to fan. The antedote to this move makes the racing even more dull, the outside horses dont fan...this locks the inside ground savers in,and saves themself some ground. It sucks but through trial and error they find it works for them.
Poor flow,gapping are other reasons, why does this happen? My belief is the conditions are poor,allowing over classed horses to race where they dont belong(one reason I like playing there),anyone see the open trot last night? a 2 horse race with 2 more with an outside chance,the balance of the field had no chance at all, Think Gold?? no way,no chance in hell.
The last reason, for poor finishes, the turns, a three wide move on the last turn probably loses 3-4 lengths,brutal.
So track configuration, sharp turns, culture, racing secretary and the drivers all share some responsibility. But..you have a well balanced field with a reasonable pace like the Ontario Boys race last night, you see a great race,rather than cheap trotters with abilities from 159 to 202,you will never see good racing,just leader vs. pocket horse. Camfella

[The Bit]

I like both places, some scattered impressions and some truths about the racing at both

Truth be told, I used to like to bet and watch the racing up that way. I actually can smoke out enough winners to make it worth my while, but I can't stand to watch it and some of the races I'm wrong about, my selections don't get a chance to prove it one way or another. I'd rather know that I was completely wrong than to wonder whether or not the driver even cared to find out. They either sit in or the leaders gets a 59 middle half, meaning my horse would have to pace a sub 25 second quarter just to hit the board.

overall the racing product is much better to watch at M1,but the horses class for class are not as good as those at Weg, shippers do quite well at M1,from Weg.

I don't agree with this if we were to compare claimers. I think the horses and racing of the Meadowlands claiming races is better, though I don't have data or certain examples to give. I also believe the non-winners of x races lifetime races are better at M1. Now the condition races, you might be correct.

The cultures are much different, M1 is much more aggressive, once it becomes the norm,they all fall into it or lose every race, In truth it makes it harder to handicap, and good horses lose. Horses used hard can get caught right at the end or make a good move and get shuffled to last...but it is more fun to watch for sure.

Why do you think this is? It isn't out of the norm for 3 different horses to brush to the lead down the backside in one raceat the M. I don't think I saw 3 brushes to the lead on Woodbine's entire Saturday card.

Woodbine in particular, has a longer run to the turn,if you are not quick off the gate (saturday there were multiple 25 second first quarters), or use hard to save rail position, you are pretty much done. the reasons? Well' first of all these guys know that pulling from 2nd or 3rd is a poor move in relation to staying in,where you can get lucky, you are hard pressed to see anyone who has done it who wins much...not exciting..but reality, so they sit in.

That pretty much sums it up.

The exception is a weak horse with the lead,they will often pull on these,but rarely a strong favorite, they know through experience it has a low success rate. When the 4th horse in line stays in,that really drives me crazy,but it works enough times to be worth it as opposed to being first over.

The races that the favorite makes the lead are terrible because as you say, no one wants to race him first up and the race, for all purposes, is over. Whereas at the Meadowlands they are never safe. If you make the front, Brennan, Pierce, etc is liable to make a run at you down the back side.

A move you will often see is a driver not coming out,but waiting for someone else to go first over, then trying to get on his back or drive up the rail ,waiting for the outside horses to fan. The antedote to this move makes the racing even more dull, the outside horses dont fan...this locks the inside ground savers in,and saves themself some ground. It sucks but through trial and error they find it works for them.

While at the Meadowlands it isn't uncommon for 3 wide moves on the far turn.


Poor flow,gapping are other reasons, why does this happen? My belief is the conditions are poor,allowing over classed horses to race where they dont belong(one reason I like playing there),anyone see the open trot last night? a 2 horse race with 2 more with an outside chance,the balance of the field had no chance at all, Think Gold?? no way,no chance in hell.

And what you explained above almost happened. Saftic sat in and got locked on the cones with Ambro Chronicle while a gapper basically eliminated the outside lane. I guess that is what I don't understand, why even allow that to be a possibility especially when your main foe is infront of you with no pressure.



The last reason, for poor finishes, the turns, a three wide move on the last turn probably loses 3-4 lengths,brutal.
So track configuration, sharp turns, culture, racing secretary and the drivers all share some responsibility. But..you have a well balanced field with a reasonable pace like the Ontario Boys race last night, you see a great race,rather than cheap trotters with abilities from 159 to 202,you will never see good racing,just leader vs. pocket horse. Camfella

That was a good race.

[thespaah]

It was a short field and that is exactly what happens in short fields. Nobody wants to come first over.

Its at least better than The Meadowlands where they go slow poke races and come home in the fastest last quarters. I have seen races where they go 58 or 59 in a 53 mile. I can show you $5000 claimers at Windsor who go faster than that in the front end.

The best you can do with short fields is to sit out the race.

Have yourself a nice evening or whats left of it.

Sea Biscuit.
Don't know if you go to the Big M. Here's the deal. In winter the prevailing wind direction is from the north. That is a headwind in the backstretch. That and the cold weather contributes to the slow middle halves in most races.
Also drivers are reluctant to go first over into the wind because they know there's a very good chane their horse will wilt in the stretch.

[camfella]

"And what you explained above almost happened. Saftic sat in and got locked on the cones with Ambro Chronicle while a gapper basically eliminated the outside lane. I guess that is what I don't understand, why even allow that to be a possibility especially when your main foe is infront of you with no pressure."

Bit, this is a very good point, I would put it under my "culture" heading , but when free, he just trotted right by a good horse. I think the big money purses spoils some of these guys up here, MacArthur's big Pacer is like a check that you can just keep on cashing, he would never think of venturing south to the states, it's easy money and it's enough for him. He enjoys racing him,wont bottom him out,and year after year he will take home $500k,no big deal. It's sort of "old time" thinking,when more owner/trainers had horses that they protected.
What I try to do is identify the "motivated conections" , some days watching drivers just sit for the tour, does burn my azz, but what is there to watch, Chicago racing sucks,1/2 mile, 5/8 mile follow in line racing, track dominated by Tim Tetrick Tuesdays,or other dominate drivers ? If it wasnt for The BigM or WEG, I would quit watching harness all together. Camfella

[The Bit]

"And what you explained above almost happened. Saftic sat in and got locked on the cones with Ambro Chronicle while a gapper basically eliminated the outside lane. I guess that is what I don't understand, why even allow that to be a possibility especially when your main foe is infront of you with no pressure."

Bit, this is a very good point, I would put it under my "culture" heading , but when free, he just trotted right by a good horse. I think the big money purses spoils some of these guys up here, MacArthur's big Pacer is like a check that you can just keep on cashing, he would never think of venturing south to the states, it's easy money and it's enough for him. He enjoys racing him,wont bottom him out,and year after year he will take home $500k,no big deal. It's sort of "old time" thinking,when more owner/trainers had horses that they protected.
What I try to do is identify the "motivated conections" , some days watching drivers just sit for the tour, does burn my azz, but what is there to watch, Chicago racing sucks,1/2 mile, 5/8 mile follow in line racing, track dominated by Tim Tetrick Tuesdays,or other dominate drivers ? If it wasnt for The BigM or WEG, I would quit watching harness all together. Camfella

Once free he sure was full of trot. I just wonder why take the risk.

The open up that way has been a joke since Tigerama left the Elliot barn. For awhile it was Secrets Nephew and now it is the Bruiser. Secrets Nephew could pace with the Bruiser but they choose not to. They ride around in the pocket or along the cones and pick up the check each week.

The racing in Chicago isn't great. I actually don't mind Yonkers or Chester for a few reasons but I wouldn't claim that the racing is exciting. Dover is brutal because of the Tetrick/Morgan factor in a weak driving colony and on top of that the fact the surface is ridiculously speed favoring. The colony at Dover also seems to be out for a ride when one horse looks solid in a field.

[Sea Biscuit]

M1 is much more aggressive, once it becomes the norm,they all fall into it or lose every race, In truth it makes it harder to handicap, and good horses lose.

Camfella: You said it all in this one statement. Would you prefer to put your money at a track where it is harder to predict a winner or where it is easier.

The greatest excitement at a harness track is in cashing a good ticket, the bigger the better. For guys like the Bit who need more excitement other than that then I suggest you go to a hockey or a baseball game or maybe even the WWF.

Sea Biscuit.

[Sea Biscuit]

[QUOTE=The Bit]Once free he sure was full of trot. I just wonder why take the risk.

I saw that race also and I was wondering like you did why Saftic did'nt pull the horse. In hindsight I think it was good judgement on his part that he kept the horse on the rail. Armbro Chronicle won the race by only 1/2 a length and had he pulled the horse first over he would most probably been short by 1/2 a length.

Just my opinion.

Sea Biscuit.

[ComeOnFred]

Here's the average fractions of all 2009 Saturday night paces at WEG :

0:26.4
0:56.0
1:24.4
1:53.2

Here's the average fractions of all 2009 Saturday night paces at M1 :

0:27.1
0:55.2
1:23.3
1:51.2



Here's the average quarters of all 2009 Saturday night paces at WEG :

0:26.4
0:29.1
0:28.4
0:28.3

Here's the average quarters of all 2009 Saturday night paces at M1 :

0:27.1
0:28.1
0:28.1
0:27.3

[camfella]

Camfella: You said it all in this one statement. Would you prefer to put your money at a track where it is harder to predict a winner or where it is easier.
Sea Biscuit.
It's a good point,it's an argument that I hear alot,overlays at either place is the thing, as far as style,at M1 you get the hard driven, shuffled,swarmed, brushed choice who finishes 6th by a length , that's frustrating, Woodbine, rail riding,lack of perceived effort,ground saving,unchallenged leaders ,hole giving,poor flow speed winning losses,that frustrates us. Cashing is the most important thing,but it's interesting to note that series finals are a lot more contested than overnights at Woodbine. At the Bigm,clever drives often win finals, the best drives are where horse power is saved ,just enough to win. Personally the quality of the competitive races draws me to M1, and the puzzle of the soap opera draws me to Woodbine. It's interesting to note the number of top older horses in Ontario, or were raced as young horses in Ontario ,who are still aroung,the Mister Big's,Mr Feelgoods, Boulder Creeks,etc,which lends credence to the perception of horses being raced with more reserve in Ontario. Camfella

[camfella]

Here's the average fractions of all 2009 Saturday night paces at WEG :
Here's the average quarters of all 2009 Saturday night paces at WEG :

0:26.4-27.1
0:29.1-29.0-(56.1)
0:28.4-28.2-(124.3)
0:28.3-28.0-(152.3)

Here's the average quarters of all 2009 Saturday night paces at M1 :

0:27.1-26.4
0:28.1-28.3-(55.2)
0:28.1-28.0-(123.2)
0:27.3-28.0 (151.2)

Good first post Fred, I have done a lot of study of the fractions at both places. One thing to remember is that the configuration of the tracks,affects the fractions. At Woodbine the first quarter has a long straight run up,with pretty sharp turns, Mohawk has a shorter run to the first turn and a very large eliptical final turn (it's not a mirror image ,less turn to start,large last turn in almost a kite style), Meadowlands is almost all turn in the first quarter. The overall effect is that the Meadowlands is a faster surface by anywhere from 3/5 to a full second,depending on the source,for the mile. Above I have added my adjusted comparisons,to adjust for speed rating and track configuration, as we see although the fractions are similar, the 2nd quarter is a big difference and affects the outcome-Camfella

[The Bit]

Camfella: You said it all in this one statement. Would you prefer to put your money at a track where it is harder to predict a winner or where it is easier.

The greatest excitement at a harness track is in cashing a good ticket, the bigger the better. For guys like the Bit who need more excitement other than that then I suggest you go to a hockey or a baseball game or maybe even the WWF.

Sea Biscuit.

And I suggest you learn to handicap :)

[The Bit]

Cashing is the most important thing,but it's interesting to note that series finals are a lot more contested than overnights at Woodbine.

This almost says everything that needs to be said. When the finals of the stakes and series roll around it looks like Big M racing. So it isn't as if they can't race that way, they choose not to. They choose to sit on the cones and ride around behind each other. They choose to give everyone that leaves a hole.

Sea Bisquit seems to take it personal. You shouldn't! Just because the racing stinks, you shouldn't take offense. And if you think I'm the only one with this opinion, go read harnessdriver.com and the forum over there. Or consider the fact that the WEG judges SAT THE DRIVING COLONY DOWN about the lack of pace and action. Or consider that they experimented with 7F races because they realize the racing is boring. How can you argue that the racing is ok when the judges who preside over the racing think something is wrong? The fact that the judges even took notice is evidence of one of two things: they either realize how bad it is and knew they needed to take a look or they had so many complaints they needed to atleast make an attempt.

For the love of god they tried a new distance?!?!

Look at what I posted in this thread, I didn't make those comments up! There should be about 100 or so more comments on harnessdriver.com that agree with what I say and perhaps 2 or 3 that support your side.

[The Bit]

Just a few comments I dug up out of one place:

"What's goofy about making a suggestion to better the racing. We all know weg racing is boring at best and a cure for insomnia at worst."

"Making a hole for your buddy has nothing to do with 7/8 mile track.
A change in this behavior alone would make a big difference in the product."

[The Bit]

Its at least better than The Meadowlands where they go slow poke races and come home in the fastest last quarters. I have seen races where they go 58 or 59 in a 53 mile. I can show you $5000 claimers at Windsor who go faster than that in the front end.
.

And with Fred's post about the fractions of the two racing circuits, this argument goes up in smoke and flames. The M1 middle halfs are almost two seconds faster than WEG's.

[camfella]

In fairness to Sea, lets face it Woodbine is what it is,but still miles ahead of the line up racing you find in Chicago,Cal X,on the mile, Indy is pretty good,but no early movement,most 5/8 or 1/2 milers are boring, the outside posts dont leave,and on and on. At least there are good horses and some good races,it's not that bad. HD,they complain about anything and everything,thats the nature of the posters on that board. I will agree that for a lot of fans in Ontario, they prefer other tracks and many view M1 as the model track for racing. So if we compare WDB to M1,it loses,but compared to most tracks,it is somewhat interesting. Camfella

[LottaKash]

I agree with just about everthing that all the previous poster's had stated.....The WEG circuit, especially Woodbine, leave a lot to be desired, when it comes to trying to find the contenders that may lead to a win....This winter the weather played a very big factor in the way they raced and the outcomes of many many races.....Still, they don't race like they do at other venues sometimes....Those windy & very Cold factors played a very big role in this year's races at Woodbine...I guess it fed on itself and made the drivers even more camera shy than normal, which was never that great to begin with.....On many a nite a horse caught outside without cover ended up being nowhere at the end, and this I believe has caused the drivers to think otherwise about attacking for the lead in many situations.....They have become "chicken-shits", plain & simple.........The Meadowlands drivers, in contrast to these other guys, are a very sharp bunch, and each nite as the program progesses's the heady drivers (of which there are many) will often change their tactics, as they see what "racing-bias) may be at work on any particular nite......Often times, especially these past few week, with the wind, humidity and temp's changing nitely, these guys don't always get it right as well....I have found that they do try harder tho, compared to those other guys....Many races this season at both of these tracks, are loaded with formless and paceless entrants, and this makes it hard to find to find a good cover flow, and many a good horse has tried to attack and found themselves up the track after those vain attempts, sucking in all that cold air and all.....Still the drivers at M1 do try to adjust and play to the running bias on those nites, and for that they are to be commended....The only way to get a horse into top shape is to race them hard and usefully, which should result, win or lose, in a sharper horse.......The problem at Woodbine, they are so chicken-shit, they actually hurts their horses more by not using them anymore that they have to.....This results in more formless and paceless horses, further complicating the handicapping picture.....At Woodbine, one must adjust, and almost relearn what works and what doesn't like at a track that gives them a shot at winning....For me, I look at the races at Woodbine somewhat differently than I do at most other tracks.....All tracks have their tendencies and I allow for that in my own handicapping, so at Woodbine I use other things to try and find an edge when trying to come up with the winners.....You can beat a race at that track, it is just that, it takes so long and is oh so boring waiting for those good spots......For me when searching for spot plays at any track, I always try to find an "Edge", but this winter the Edges's are fewer and farther in between than most other times of the year.....And so it goes, it seems as if the horses at Woodbine acutally race themselves out of shape, furth complicating the picture,as the carded conditions and horses have become so formless and paceless, that it is so hard to find something different and unusual to sink my teeth into, you know something to give me an edge.

"Deep-Winter" racing sucks....period....But, take heart folks, spring racing is just around the corner, and that is "my time of the year" (I hope)...Lots of new horses and tricky situations, that if one is savvy enough, can make a nice score or two......

Here's hopin, for better racing on the way......:jump:

best,

[Sea Biscuit]

And I suggest you learn to handicap :)

Thanks for the suggestion. After some 30 odd years in the business the process of learning has never really stopped for me. I am still learning something new everyday. Perhaps you care to teach me something new or it just might be if you pay close attention you might learn something new today.

Now assuming that Fred's average times for the Meds and the Weg are correct which are as follows:

Weg: 26.4 56 124.4 153.2 26.4 29.1 28.4 28.3

Meds 27.1 55.2 123.3 151.2 27.1 28.1 28.1 27.3

First of all Fred made a small booboo in calculating the last quarter for the Meds which should really be 27.4 and not 27.3. A smart handicapper like you Mr Bit should have picked up on that mistake very easily but of course you did'nt. However now that the mistake has been corrected, let me ask you one question.

Which of the above two pace lines ran a faster pace? Can you tell?

More after I hear from you guys.

Sea Biscuit.

[camfella]

LK- It seems you have resorted to the voodoo capping approach at Woodbine,LOL, but I think the key at Woodbine is "WHO" and class. Where else will you see a struggling open trotter allowed to race in a bottom level condition race? by a write in ? It does not happen..anywhere else, nor should it...Texas Photo lost twice in that conditon,so whats a capper to think? They should not allow it. The open Trot race last Monday had 4 horses who did not belong in that class, but on the same program they had at least 4 trotters who would have been more competitive,but were written into the lower class race. This is a big problem. Most races ,other than some claimers, half the field has no chance,on class alone. Most cant decifer this, it took me a long time to do so. You are correct about one thing ...it is a lot different than most tracks , there is more to figure out, more trainers shipping in, more drivers on any given night. The only chance you have is to learn all the players,and learn how to decifer the classes. It is the only track where a horse can step up in class while going down in classification..but that happens when you dont limit the low conditions by wps or money won,as the BigM does. Check it out and it will become clearer- Camfella

[The Bit]

In fairness to Sea, lets face it Woodbine is what it is,but still miles ahead of the line up racing you find in Chicago,Cal X,on the mile, Indy is pretty good,but no early movement,most 5/8 or 1/2 milers are boring, the outside posts dont leave,and on and on. At least there are good horses and some good races,it's not that bad. HD,they complain about anything and everything,thats the nature of the posters on that board. I will agree that for a lot of fans in Ontario, they prefer other tracks and many view M1 as the model track for racing. So if we compare WDB to M1,it loses,but compared to most tracks,it is somewhat interesting. Camfella

How much more needs to be said than that? Yet the Bisquit will continue to babble otherwise.

And as I said above, I don't claim the racing to be great or exciting at any other place than Club Med. Hell, I might even say the WEG is 2nd best!

[The Bit]

Thanks for the suggestion. After some 30 odd years in the business the process of learning has never really stopped for me. I am still learning something new everyday. Perhaps you care to teach me something new or it just might be if you pay close attention you might learn something new today..

Again you seem to be taking it personal, yet you told me to watch the WWF. This was never about handicapping. You stated it is more difficult to handicap the Meadowlands and that you would rather play WEG because you can cash tickets there. I suggested you learned to handicap. If something is difficult, you take time to learn.

Now assuming that Fred's average times for the Meds and the Weg are correct which are as follows:

Weg: 26.4 56 124.4 153.2 26.4 29.1 28.4 28.3

Meds 27.1 55.2 123.3 151.2 27.1 28.1 28.1 27.3

First of all Fred made a small booboo in calculating the last quarter for the Meds which should really be 27.4 and not 27.3. A smart handicapper like you Mr Bit should have picked up on that mistake very easily but of course you did'nt. However now that the mistake has been corrected, let me ask you one question.

Which of the above two pace lines ran a faster pace? Can you tell?..

Well the smart handicapper Mr. Bit didn't catch the mistake because all I needed to see was evidence that the inner fractions of the Meadowlands were faster than the WEG, which you have used as evidence of the better WEG product. I didn't check any further, I didn't need to! Your theory was proven wrong as I suspected but I didn't have any data to back it up and I'm not one to spew out of the mouth about things I'm not sure of.

Of course I didn't? Why of course didn't I? Of course you had no clue what you were talking about when you said that WEG middle fractions were faster. I'm not the one that said something that wasn't correct! Lets not forget that!

And just for laughs, I'll entertain your question.

First 1/2 comparison:

WEG - 56
M1 - 55.2

Mid 1/2 comparison:

WEG - 58
M1 - 56.2

Back 1/2 comparison:

WEG - 57.2
M1 - 56

So now enlighten me!

[The Bit]

Watch Saturday night's 7th race. Saftic ends up 4th with 6/5 favorite Stonebridge On Ice. The horse that is 3rd on the cones, starts to back up in his face. He takes out first over clears that gapper and ducks into a box and stops the horse instead of continuing first over. He than is stuck in behind horses and is rocking, whipping, driving, like a nut to get the horse revved up for the third time. He is 6/5!

[LottaKash]

Comparing "apples" to "oranges"....2-different tracks, and 2 different ways of going.......All tracks are different from each other....ALL...and each has it's own set of rules to play by......imo

We must change our expectatation for each, or suffer the consequences.....:D...and stay and be pissed.....:D

best,

[sly fox]

Most of you know my disdain for the racing at Woodbine. If I could sum it up in one race, it would be tonight's 10th, the open pace.

They let Ramagade Bruiser go 27.1 - 56.3 - 126.0 - 1.53.1

That's right! A brutal 58.4 middle half for the top horses on the grounds!

I don't bet it hardly at all any longer and this is why. You can't beat 4-5's when you give them 3/4 in 126.

And yes, I realize the track is "good". 126 is slow in 6 inches of mud.


For a guy who hardly bets Wdb any longer, I
suggest you look elsewhere.

cheers

[The Bit]

For a guy who hardly bets Wdb any longer, I
suggest you look elsewhere.

cheers

Thanks for that. That added a lot to the conversation. Please, stick around and enlighten me further.

[The Bit]

LK,

You are calling the drivers chicken shit and throwing the racing under the bus worse than I am, calling it an anomaly and everyone keeps riding me. What gives? lol

[LottaKash]

LK,

You are calling the drivers chicken shit and throwing the racing under the bus worse than I am, calling it an anomaly and everyone keeps riding me. What gives? lol

Hey Bit,
I DO PLAY Woobine, but the drivers there have been BIG Chicken shits this winter...... I can't go out and drive for them, but often enough I feel that they are not doing enough to get their horses into a contending spot.....Perhaps it really is the weather more than anything, but if you notice at M1 these driver's and trainers know that if you want to win a bunch of races, and not just by luck, you must get your horse into good racing shape, and you can't always do that down on the farm, you must race your horse to get that shape thing going......That is all I meant to say......It seems (I know I am repeating myself), but this winter season in particular at Woodbine, the drivers do more harm than good, when it comes to getting their horses into good shape....Hey sometimes you have to waste a race or two to accomplish that, they know that, and yet they still try to do no harm to their horses and hope to get a good or lucky trip, and they are not doing anything to further their horses into improving in their form-cylcles.......The fans see this, and it is a big turnoff for many.....There are special things that pop up here and there, but not enough to concentrate all my energies for a whole session, nite after nite playing that track.....Sometimes I miss out on some things, as I am not willing to wait and wait and wait for that special spot to come up.......it is so boring.....Racing isn't boring, Woodbine is boring.......Still I do play there I like the WEG tracks for the most part, but not this winter season....:lol:

best,

[Sea Biscuit]

Again you seem to be taking it personal, yet you told me to watch the WWF. This was never about handicapping. You stated it is more difficult to handicap the Meadowlands and that you would rather play WEG because you can cash tickets there. I suggested you learned to handicap. If something is difficult, you take time to learn.



Well the smart handicapper Mr. Bit didn't catch the mistake because all I needed to see was evidence that the inner fractions of the Meadowlands were faster than the WEG, which you have used as evidence of the better WEG product. I didn't check any further, I didn't need to! Your theory was proven wrong as I suspected but I didn't have any data to back it up and I'm not one to spew out of the mouth about things I'm not sure of.

Of course I didn't? Why of course didn't I? Of course you had no clue what you were talking about when you said that WEG middle fractions were faster. I'm not the one that said something that wasn't correct! Lets not forget that!

And just for laughs, I'll entertain your question.

First 1/2 comparison:

WEG - 56
M1 - 55.2

Mid 1/2 comparison:

WEG - 58
M1 - 56.2

Back 1/2 comparison:

WEG - 57.2
M1 - 56

So now enlighten me!

A wise man once said that to be enlightened you have to have an open mind which does not seem to be in your case or at least it looks that way.
However I will try.

You have said it more than once that I am taking it personally. Nothing can be further from the truth. This happens to be a discussion forum and we are just discussing about pace at a harness track.

Mr Bit You have a lot to learn about pace. You just can't compare the internal fractions of two different tracks like that. Different track configurations, different weather conditions, different track surfaces and different class of horses all play a part in how slow or fast the internal fractions and the final times are.

The pace of the race is always determined in relation to the FINAL times.

At Weg the first quarter (26.4) went 7 1/5ths faster than average, the half mile time (56) went 3.5 1/5ths faster and the three quarter time of 124.4 was one 1/5ths faster than average. Add them up and you will get a total figure of 11.5 1/5ths faster than average.

At Meds the first qtr (27.1) was 3 1/5ths faster than average, the half mile time of 55.2 was 2 1/5ths faster than average and the three qtr time of 123.3 was just about average. Adding them together you get a figure of only 5 1/5ths faster.

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt what I have been saying all along that the Meds pace of races is slower than the Weg.

I rest my case.

Have a fun day at the races.

Sea Biscuit.

[LottaKash]

That is so true Biscuit.......Apples n' Oranges again.........:jump: The similarity is that, they both are circles.......

best,

[The Bit]

Its at least better than The Meadowlands where they go slow poke races and come home in the fastest last quarters. I have seen races where they go 58 or 59 in a 53 mile. I can show you $5000 claimers at Windsor who go faster than that in the front end.


The above is what you have said. So you have proved nothing.

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt what I have been saying all along that the Meds pace of races is slower than the Weg.

[The Bit]

So you are taking the final time dividing it by four and using that as your average.

Atleast I can make sense of it and I have to admit, it would seem to hold some merit. But that isn't what this thread was about was it? It was about the boring, non-effort racing. You brought up the mid-half of the Meadowlands racing, claiming that they were slower. Now, later in the discusion, someone gave you new evidence and you are claiming that is what you meant all along. However, that isn't what you said and I'll never believe that is what you meant. Your initial point was the slow 58 and 59 1/2 fractions at M1 and how Windsor claimers go faster. That is so far from the truth it is laughable and Fred's data, the same data you are now hanging your hat on, proves what you said wrong.

You can go back and reread the entire thread and find that I never said the racing was bad because of the lack of pace in the races. Yes, once Fred posted his data, I thought it but didn't say anything because I don't know enough about pace handicapping harness racing to make points about it. It isn't a part of my handicapping and the only place I know anything about pace is the Meadowlands because I know what the class levels should be going and what the averages are. I only speak about things I know as I said above. Even after you posed the quesiton, I pointed out the half fractions but didn't actually put an answer in writing because I wasn't positive.

Bottom line is, the pace might be the fastest in the world, but the racing is still boring. The fact that all the horses might be in an all out drive for the entire mile doesn't make it exciting.

And I'll pose a question to you, one that I believe I already asked, if the racing is so good, why all the complaints on the internet? Why the distance experiment? Why the sit down with the drivers? These are facts that can't be ignored. Enlighten me about that, because that is what this thread was about.

[The Bit]

And another thing, you used your final time to gauge your "averages" that you compared the inner fractions to. Now, every book I've read, from Klien, Beyer to Brohamer have made mention of what I thought was an pretty cut and dry concept. Pace makes the race ... or in this instance, pace makes the final time. I have to believe that if all of the sudden the WEG driving colonly started moving and brushing to the lead and that 1/2 mile fraction all the sudden became 55 flat, the final times would be affected.

Little Amos:

On 2/15/09 he sits back behind a 56 second 1/2 fraction and paces home to a 153.2 final time. However, this week, Hudon steps on the gas and all of the sudden he goes a half in 55.2 and finishes up in 152.3.

There are other examples but I think the point is made. I'd like to hear what you think about that. Is the method you used sound?

[Sea Biscuit]

So you are taking the final time dividing it by four and using that as your average.

Atleast I can make sense of it and I have to admit, it would seem to hold some merit. But that isn't what this thread was about was it? It was about the boring, non-effort racing. You brought up the mid-half of the Meadowlands racing, claiming that they were slower. Now, later in the discusion, someone gave you new evidence and you are claiming that is what you meant all along. However, that isn't what you said and I'll never believe that is what you meant. Your initial point was the slow 58 and 59 1/2 fractions at M1 and how Windsor claimers go faster. That is so far from the truth it is laughable and Fred's data, the same data you are now hanging your hat on, proves what you said wrong.

You can go back and reread the entire thread and find that I never said the racing was bad because of the lack of pace in the races. Yes, once Fred posted his data, I thought it but didn't say anything because I don't know enough about pace handicapping harness racing to make points about it. It isn't a part of my handicapping and the only place I know anything about pace is the Meadowlands because I know what the class levels should be going and what the averages are. I only speak about things I know as I said above. Even after you posed the quesiton, I pointed out the half fractions but didn't actually put an answer in writing because I wasn't positive.

Bottom line is, the pace might be the fastest in the world, but the racing is still boring. The fact that all the horses might be in an all out drive for the entire mile doesn't make it exciting.

And I'll pose a question to you, one that I believe I already asked, if the racing is so good, why all the complaints on the internet? Why the distance experiment? Why the sit down with the drivers? These are facts that can't be ignored. Enlighten me about that, because that is what this thread was about.

It was YOU Mr Bit who started using Fred's figures to prove your point and I just used the same figures to prove YOU wrong.

I am sure that everybody here knows that it was an exaggeration when I compared Windsor to the Meds but that was only to bring home a point.

As far as the question you posed to me, I don't care a damn about complaints on the internet or the new distance experiment or the sit down with the drivers.

All I know is when you have heavy money down on a 10-1 shot and he is leading in the stretch by two lengths and your adrenalin starts pumping in your veins and your heart starts palpitating and nothing more exhilarating to see the driver holding on to win.

Thats just about all the excitement I could take at a harness track.

Sea Biscuit.

[Sea Biscuit]

Most of you know my disdain for the racing at Woodbine. If I could sum it up in one race, it would be tonight's 10th, the open pace.

They let Ramagade Bruiser go 27.1 - 56.3 - 126.0 - 1.53.1

That's right! A brutal 58.4 middle half for the top horses on the grounds!

I don't bet it hardly at all any longer and this is why. You can't beat 4-5's when you give them 3/4 in 126.

And yes, I realize the track is "good". 126 is slow in 6 inches of mud.

I quote you Mr Bit:

"You can go back and reread the entire thread and find that I never said the racing was bad because of the lack of pace in the races."

You have just contradicted yourself Mr bit and I hope I am not babbling just pointing out the obvious.

Sea Biscuit

[Sea Biscuit]

And another thing, you used your final time to gauge your "averages" that you compared the inner fractions to. Now, every book I've read, from Klien, Beyer to Brohamer have made mention of what I thought was an pretty cut and dry concept. Pace makes the race ... or in this instance, pace makes the final time. I have to believe that if all of the sudden the WEG driving colonly started moving and brushing to the lead and that 1/2 mile fraction all the sudden became 55 flat, the final times would be affected.

Little Amos:

On 2/15/09 he sits back behind a 56 second 1/2 fraction and paces home to a 153.2 final time. However, this week, Hudon steps on the gas and all of the sudden he goes a half in 55.2 and finishes up in 152.3.

There are other examples but I think the point is made. I'd like to hear what you think about that. Is the method you used sound?

Now you are talking my language Mr Bit.

The guy who coined the phrase pace makes the race is right on the money and I believe it too.

In harness racing the slower the half mile call and the three quarter call the slower will be the final times and vice versa.

Pick up any summertime program (where the weather does not play a major part in the final times of horses) and you will notice that a horse goes 152.3 one week and a week later he goes 152 flat. Check to see if the week he goes 152 flat he would most likely have a fast pace at least faster than the week before.

Pace in my humble opinion is the most important factor in harness racing.

I can write a whole chapter on pace but times constraints prevent me to do so at this moment.

Perhaps another day

Sea Biscuit.

[The Bit]

It was YOU Mr Bit who started using Fred's figures to prove your point and I just used the same figures to prove YOU wrong.



Sea Biscuit.

I used Fred's numbers to prove that what you said about the middle 1/2 and final quarters to be wrong. And you were wrong.

[The Bit]

I quote you Mr Bit:

"You can go back and reread the entire thread and find that I never said the racing was bad because of the lack of pace in the races."

You have just contradicted yourself Mr bit and I hope I am not babbling just pointing out the obvious.

Sea Biscuit

No I didn't. I merely pointed at that they let the top horse on the grounds get away with those fractions. The lack of action or movement behind those fractions is what ruins the racing not the slow nature of the pace. If there was movement the pace wouldn't matter.

[The Bit]

As far as the question you posed to me, I don't care a damn about complaints on the internet or the new distance experiment or the sit down with the drivers.



Still no good explanations. You have nothing other than a pace theory that may or may not be credible.

Why didn't you just say from the beginning that you like the racing because you can figure it out and you don't dare venture outside of Merry Go Round Downs?

I don't bet horses just because I like to gamble. I bet horses because I enjoy the sport of it. I enjoy the race. I enjoy watching the chess match between the drivers and the eye ball to eye ball confrontation between the first over challenger and the rail riding pace setter.

[The Bit]

Now you are talking my language Mr Bit.

The guy who coined the phrase pace makes the race is right on the money and I believe it too.

In harness racing the slower the half mile call and the three quarter call the slower will be the final times and vice versa.

Pick up any summertime program (where the weather does not play a major part in the final times of horses) and you will notice that a horse goes 152.3 one week and a week later he goes 152 flat. Check to see if the week he goes 152 flat he would most likely have a fast pace at least faster than the week before.

Pace in my humble opinion is the most important factor in harness racing.

I can write a whole chapter on pace but times constraints prevent me to do so at this moment.

Perhaps another day

Sea Biscuit.

So if I read this correctly, you just agreed that the evidence you gave to support your theory that WEG's races are faster paced than the M1's races even though the fractions don't show it is wrong?

If you agree that if they started going faster to the half that the final times would fall ( and I have spreadsheet after spreadsheet that says this is 100% true ), than there is no way you can use final times to come up with a measuring stick to use to measure pace against.

[Sea Biscuit]

Still no good explanations. You have nothing other than a pace theory that may or may not be credible.

Why didn't you just say from the beginning that you like the racing because you can figure it out and you don't dare venture outside of Merry Go Round Downs?

I don't bet horses just because I like to gamble. I bet horses because I enjoy the sport of it. I enjoy the race. I enjoy watching the chess match between the drivers and the eye ball to eye ball confrontation between the first over challenger and the rail riding pace setter.

I give up!!!!

You are the kind of guy who always wants to have the last word.

Enjoy your eyeball to eyeball confrontation with the first over challenger and and the pace setting rail rider.

Sea Biscuit.

[The Bit]

I give up!!!!

You are the kind of guy who always wants to have the last word.

Enjoy your eyeball to eyeball confrontation with the first over challenger and and the pace setting rail rider.

Sea Biscuit.

No, I'm the kind of guy that doesn't BS about anything and doesn't like BS'ers.

Enjoy your pace theory that doesn't hold water and the good racing of the WEG circuit.

[sly fox]

No, I'm the kind of guy that doesn't BS about anything and doesn't like BS'ers.

Enjoy your pace theory that doesn't hold water and the good racing of the WEG circuit.

we learn nothing when we blame others
i.e drivers, etc. for our losing bets.

Seabiscuit

like your posts, keep it up.

Fred

welcome to the board
good stuff.

cheers

[Sea Biscuit]

we learn nothing when we blame others
i.e drivers, etc. for our losing bets.

Seabiscuit

like your posts, keep it up.

Fred

welcome to the board
good stuff.

cheers

Thanks Sly Fox for the thumbs up.

Sea Biscuit.

[LottaKash]

All this is "Too Funny"......Hoss Racin' and Hoss' Players, ya gotta love-em......:jump: ... We are a rare breed indeed....:rolleyes:

best,

[The Bit]

we learn nothing when we blame others
i.e drivers, etc. for our losing bets.

Seabiscuit

like your posts, keep it up.

Fred

welcome to the board
good stuff.

cheers

Once again, the wealth of information in your post is overwhelming. However, I guess when you lack the knowledge and/or information necessary to have a valid opinion it is tough to take part in a discussion with someone who has the ability to do so.

If you have read this thread, I've made mention more than once that this isn't about not being able to pick winners and my interest in the sport isn't centered around cashing tickets. You keep on grasping for straws though!

[Sea Biscuit]

All this is "Too Funny"......Hoss Racin' and Hoss' Players, ya gotta love-em......:jump: ... We are a rare breed indeed....:rolleyes:

best,

Well John when you are endowed with only a little Bit of a brain with only a Bit of information with a little Bit of ego to go with it, this is what happens.

Best

Sea Biscuit.

[sly fox]

Well John when you are endowed with only a little Bit of a brain with only a Bit of information with a little Bit of ego to go with it, this is what happens.

Best

Sea Biscuit.


Good one Sea.................lol

[headhawg]

I was hoping that the harness section would be immune from these kinds of posts but...

I do like all of the new harness discussion that has been happening here for a while now, and I for one hope it continues. Let's not let it spiral down into Off Topic territory.

[Sea Biscuit]

I was hoping that the harness section would be immune from these kinds of posts but...

I do like all of the new harness discussion that has been happening here for a while now, and I for one hope it continues. Let's not let it spiral down into Off Topic territory.

You are absolutely right Headhawg.

I got a Bit carried away.

Lets get down to the business of handicapping.

Sea Biscuit.

[The Bit]

You guys are so cute together :kiss: :lol:

The fact that you can't support your so called pace theory with facts or even an reasonable explanation speaks volumes about you as a person and a handicapper. You don't like that I don't agree with your assessments and/or reasoning and instead of discussing it, you avoid it all together with witty ( it was cute ), kid like jokes. 'Nuff said.

[The Bit]

Lets get down to the business of handicapping.

.

You would have to learn first. :)

[The Bit]

Not to bring up a sore subject but does Sea Biscuit or anyone else have any thoughts on Woodbine's new change? Moving the poles to change the run up to the first turn? In theory it should create more action down the backside, but the drivers still have to actually decide to move.

"Our analysis of those races ( 7 furlong ) showed there was enough potential to move forward to this step," said Bruce Murray, WEG's vice president of Standardbred Racing. "The ultimate goal is to improve the flow of racing at Woodbine."

[Sea Biscuit]

Not to bring up a sore subject but does Sea Biscuit or anyone else have any thoughts on Woodbine's new change? Moving the poles to change the run up to the first turn? In theory it should create more action down the backside, but the drivers still have to actually decide to move.

"Our analysis of those races ( 7 furlong ) showed there was enough potential to move forward to this step," said Bruce Murray, WEG's vice president of Standardbred Racing. "The ultimate goal is to improve the flow of racing at Woodbine."

They have decreased the distance from the start line to the first turn by 235 feet and increased the stretch lengths by 235 feet and the reason for this given by Mr Murray was and I quote:

""The specific 235 foot distance of the move was dictated by where the end of the grandstand is situated and the location of the 'upper' and 'lower pan' race cameras."

Can anybody out there tell me what the location of the grandstand or the location of the upper and lower pan race cameras has to do with the flow of races. If the grandstand had been a further 100 feet up would they have increased the stretch by another 100 feet

Totally confused:confused: and feel like :bang:

Sea Biscuit

[Sea Biscuit]

With this new experiment at Woodbine I do believe that they have made it much easier for the front runners to win the races. Out of the 22 races raced so far 14 went to the horses who were 1st or 2nd at the half mile call. Now that may not be that unusual as far as Woodbine is concerned, but what I noticed is that they were registering some unusually slow first quarters and three quarters times leaving the front runners to post some very fast last quarters thereby making it much tougher for the closers.

Interesting configuration.

Sea Biscuit.

[camfella]

Speed horses from outside posts can no longer run up for an 1/8th of a mile,now the first turn interfers with them,so they dont. The times will be showing a little slower because of the shorter run to the trun,as will the third quarter as the pole is now at the top of the stretch, causing more turn to be included in that time(it slows them down). The real key is that they must now settle,pull on the backside for position,if they dont the leaders will win every race. Woodbine's turns are very sharp and protect the leader from 3 or 4 wide horses(they lose too much ground). Jamieson has semed to figure this out so far,Mark Mcdonald also. If the leader is unpressured in the second quarters,we will see less closers even with the longer stretch,so far the preferred tactic is to wait until they straighten out,and dash for a quarter mile,this wont work for them. Camfella

[Overcall]

Re: CamFella post on page 1

"I like both places, some scattered impressions and some truths about the racing at both,overall the racing product is much better to watch at M1,but the horses class for class are not as good as those at Weg"

I disagree with the above. In my programming i calculate a factor called
field strength. Any race with a field strength 7 or above is a strong field.
Last night for example at M1, races 1,2,3,5,6,10,12 ranged from 7.14 to 9.38 (9.38 = 5th race). At Wb, races 3 = 7.38 and the race 10 = 10.0.
So for the first 11 race at M1 compared to Wb's 11 races the total field strength was 80.38 versus 67.01. BTW the reason to calculate FS is kinda
like betting blue chip stock versus common stock. A quality field produces
more predictable results. The reason a race has a low FS is a lot of unknown, not many lines, qualifiers etc.

Admititly the big M ain't what it used to be, but still a superior product.
AND I'm the guy that thinks Wb's track layout is the best. It's equal distance
to the first turn and out of the final turn to the wire, provides equal advantage to leavers and closers. But it dosen't matter...WEG has turned over it's finest racing (summer) to Mhk.

[camfella]

Agree with field strength on a Saturday,the main problem with the fields at Woodbine is that they have poor race conditions, in many races ,on paper,40% of the field has no legitimate shot to win. With the track biases a no shot horse can trip out and win if those 60% get into trouble, thats the unreliable or unpredictable part of capping the Woodbine races. Overall,the Ontario breeding industry is very deep and turning out quality horses in that whole province. Would anyone want to challenge the depth compared to New Jersey breds? Dont think so...Camfella

[Overcall]

Camfella said
"Agree with field strength on a Saturday,the main problem with the fields at Woodbine is that they have poor race conditions, in many races ,on paper,40% of the field has no legitimate shot to win. With the track biases a no shot horse can trip out and win if those 60% get into trouble, thats the unreliable or unpredictable part of capping the Woodbine races. Overall,the Ontario breeding industry is very deep and turning out quality horses in that whole province. Would anyone want to challenge the depth compared to New Jersey breds? Dont think so...Camfella"

You're preaching to the choir....I remember the nights at GCY, GR and Mhk.
They threw scads of $ at low class standardbreds with the OSS program.
It's definately paid off. WB was my fav until they decided, they prefer tbreds in the Summer. Tho I would argue about that 154+ rating (M1=156+)
Shippers go slower at Wb/Mhk

If you like mile style racing after August, we all better get used to the WEG
circuit. In 2010 M1 won't have a Fall season.

[Sea Biscuit]

Looks like the new experiment with the extra stretch distance is over and on Saturday April 25, Woodbine reverted back to the old finish and start line.

This new experiment which lasted for exactly 5 days, the Woodbine handle was down by 16.49% approx which relates to $225000 per day.

End of story.

Sea Biscuit

Ps: I wonder what they will think up next.

[The Bit]

Looks like the new experiment with the extra stretch distance is over and on Saturday April 25, Woodbine reverted back to the old finish and start line.

This new experiment which lasted for exactly 5 days, the Woodbine handle was down by 16.49% approx which relates to $225000 per day.

End of story.

Sea Biscuit

Ps: I wonder what they will think up next.

I sent an email suggesting that they replace the driving colony. :)

It seems the crowd at Harness Driver is as disgusted as ever judging by recent comments/topics over that way. I haven't been watching much Woodbine racing lately, or much racing in general for that matter.

[camfella]

Sea-I thought I would clear up any confusion on the new Finish line, a wind storm destroyed the temporary line that they set up,causing them to have to revert to the old finish line for the last two days of the meet. Word is that the extended stretch model comes back permanently in October. I preferred the new set up, it made the racing better to watch,in my opinion. The best idea would be to race on the outer most mile track used by the runners,but that wont happen. By sticking a 7/8 oval inside of the mile oval,it makes the turns much too sharp, wide horses lose too much ground,giving rail or speed horses the advantage. The worst part to me is watching the no tries,when drivers know they dont have a fair chance ,that happened alot on the old set up- Camfella