SA breakdowns

[joanied]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/48640.htm

What is going on at Santa Anita...I assume you have seen this story, 5 breakdowns:ThmbDown: in as many days...

Maybe now 'they' will realize that the synthetic tracks are not living up to expectations. Something needs to be done...I have no clue as to what:bang: but something. Seems keeping this surface safe is going to take a ton of work and cost a fortune.

[strapper]

Turfway and Santa Anita, both having problems with their artificial tracks? It just goes to show all synthetics are not created equal. Maybe turf racing is the way to go?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Between workouts and races, CD had 5 breakdowns in the 5 days prior to Funny Cide's KY Derby victory, because they hardened the track up to the Oaks day, then it went back to normal for Derby Day. SO 5 days only means anything if there is a discernable reason that can be found. Otherwise, all guesswork and more negative input and PR.

[PaceAdvantage]

Anyone who has ever been around a Thoroughbred racehorse should never be surprised that clusters of breakdowns will happen NO MATTER WHAT SURFACE THEY RUN OVER (although I must admit, I don't recall any clusters of breakdowns over any turf course in recent memory...then again, they don't run as many turf races as dirt races....)

The fact that they sold these artificial surfaces as "life savers" is a bit of a joke. From the very start, the rate of injury was on par with dirt courses, although the type of injury was admittedly altered.

[ralph_the_cat]

Its pretty funny actually... The bias stopped favoring hard closers as much... People started liking the surface and bias... Lots of those people said its because the surface is not a true synthetic surface anymore/they went back to a mostly dirt mixture... now where are all these people at?... The surface is made up more of dirt than synthetic fibers... now what?... the light mixture of synthetic fibers is causing the problem?...:lol: you can blame synthetic surfaces or dirt surfaces on what ever you want... you can tally all the breakdowns up you want... train a horse on a true sythetic surface and one on a true dirt surface... the horse on synthetic will more than likely encounter less problems... California has had their head up their butts since day one... they asked proride to install a surface but they wanted to make include as much dirt/sand as possible... so what do you want? a synthetic track or dirt/sand?... :bang:

[JustRalph]

Trainers are not happy..........

Turfway, Golden Gate and Santa Anita all battling breakdowns.

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/sports/ci_11390935

Concerned trainers to meet over Santa Anita's surface
By Art Wilson, Staff Writer
Posted: 01/06/2009 10:45:20 PM PST

A large contingent of Southland trainers, both for and against synthetic tracks, are scheduled to meet this morning to discuss their concerns about the rash of breakdowns over Santa Anita's Pro-Ride surface during the first nine days of the winter-spring meet.

According to one veteran trainer, who wished to remain anonymous because he was not authorized by the California Thoroughbred Trainers to speak on the subject, the meeting will take place at about 10:30 a.m. at Santa Anita's Clockers' Corner.

"The natives are restless," the trainer said.

Five horses have broken down over Santa Anita's synthetic Pro-Ride surface since the meet began Dec. 26, and three had to be euthanized. The eventual fate of a fourth, the talented filly Indyanne, will not be known for several months after she fractured her left front sesamoid in the La Brea Stakes on Dec. 27 and efforts were begun to save her.

Santa Anita president Ron Charles, while acknowledging an informal meeting has been scheduled for Thursday with trainers, veterinarians and Pro-Ride founder Ian Pearse, said he knew nothing about today's meeting.

"I talked with (trainer) John Sadler (Tuesday), and we're going to meet with Ian about what's transpired, what might have happened," Charles said.

Another source familiar with the situation said a group of about eight trainers walked the Pro-Ride track Sunday morning and were shocked by the condition of the surface

They couldn't believe what it was like when they walked on it," she said.

One respected horseman would like to see the main track torn up and replaced by a dirt surface, a process he estimates would take six to 10 days if the new materials were already on site.

"He says they could still have five grass races (a day) and then take wagering on other races in the state during the renovation," the source said.

But that's a long shot because of the nation's economic climate.

"They've put $20 million into this (track), but it (still) doesn't work," said the trainer with knowledge of the situation.

This is the second consecutive Santa Anita meet that has gotten off to a rocky start.


More at the link

[JustRalph]

Cronley on Horses .......... and more. It comes back to the thread............ keep reading............

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=cronley_jay&id=3812643

[Bruddah]

From the very beginning, I, and a few others on this board, said the truth of the polycrap tracks would eventually come to the surface. (Pun very much intended). I compared the whole thing to football installing artificial surfaces because they were supposedly "SAFER" and said it would probably be less than 5 years and the Racing/Horse Industry would realize they were being sold a bunch of horse sh*t. These surfaces are not safer, they are more expensive and do require more maintenance.

The whole PolyCrap mess is the salesmanship of a few key "hoity toity" influential individuals in this Industry, who wish to Europeanize American racing. In essence they have sold ice to the Eskimos.

It is what is. Wake up and smell the horse sh*t on those boots. The best thing is for American racing to get back to dirt and concentrate on growing their customer base. These are the folks that put money into racing and through the windows. It starts and ends with the Customer. It's a shame the Industry has never and still doesn't realize this.

A bunch of fu**ing idiots. :bang:

[Bruddah]

after I wrote the above I read this article on the front page of PA. The trainers are saying what some of us have said from the get go. The trainers words says it all.

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/48696.htm?id=48696&source=rss

[lamboguy]

the reasons for the breakdowns are not the tracks, its the way the horses are trained to begin with. my partner has has been training horses for years, he puts a solid bottom in them before they start to breeze before they are 2 yo's. he is very careful as to when they start to take sharp turns before their knees are closed.

sometimes when the tracks have big stakes days they make the surfaces a little harder to speed up the times. that is not good in the long run for the horse. the hard surface is never going to be that kind to their joints.

the other day i win a race by 10 lengths, the horse come back with heat in one of the ankles. there is no way i can stick that horse back into a race without adressing that problem. it will probably take 3 months before he will get the green light to race again if that soon. but do to the economics of the game some trainers are forced to patch the problem up and run the horse back with a higher degree of risk to a breakdown. i have a problem with that. in good concience i wouldn't do that to a horse. you wouldn't let your child do it, so why let the horse. they are both living creatures.

[Bobzilla]

I've always suspected that a given track's or circuit's mortality rate to catastrophic breakdowns says more about the local culture in regard to veterinary, training, claiming and maintenance practices than it does about any inherent flaws in any one surface type that the horses are being asked to train and compete over. I believe that an unfortunate irony of this entire synthetic experiment we've seen over the last 3 1/2 years has been that it's diverted much attention and resources away from any true course of finding real answers to understanding the problem better and reducing the occurence of breakdowns. It seems that any realistic effort to deal with what may very well be racing's biggest threat has had to be put on the backburner so that those who saw a once-in-a-lifetime marketing opportunity could make a killing. The synthetic experiment has also provided opportunities for some turf writers to publish books over a topic that they themselves probably don't understand as much as they'd have you believe. The synthetic experiment has also provided opportunities for its supporters to publically place themselves on a higher moral plane, which probably is reaffirming to themselves psychologically, while marginalizing those who have questioned the wisdom of it by suggesting deficinces in character, humanitarianism or simply implying that the movement's detractors are either trainers who cannot train for the surface or players who lack the initiative to take on the challenge of learning to handicap races run over a new surface type. And as Bruddah suggested, and I believe he's correct, the desire on the part of the powers that be to arrive at an universal racing surface has had more to do with this movement than concern for rider and horse; not to suggest they don't care about safety as I'm sure they do for obvious reasons, but I sense the real impetus behind the decision has been for perceived economic gains through internationalizing the sport; matching dirt champions and turf champions on a so called level playing field.

I don't know what the answer is to breakdowns but I believe that there is more that can be done to reduce this blight on the industry. I'm afraid that someday history might look back at the synthetic experiment as just another roadblock or distraction to truly dealing with a problem that absolutely demands a REAL response if it's to survive.

[JCB]

My guess is that it's called greed.

If horses train better on synthetic, trainers will work them harder and more often so they can race them more often and earn more checks. That puts them right back in the same boat....more stress and more breakdowns.

[joanied]

Cronley on Horses .......... and more. It comes back to the thread............ keep reading............

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=cronley_jay&id=3812643

Well, I enjoyed his rambelings about Wyoming and the Elk...although you do not 'hear the Elk mate'...you hear the bulls calling. Anyway...that was a fun read...
then I clicked on the racing link and read that...ralph, I didn't see anything pertaining to this thread, but I did really like what he says about the Eclispe Awards...especially saying that a European horse that comes here and runs one race, albiet it a BC race, should NOT get an Eclipse award off that one win...he highlights Conduit and Goldikova...and I agree with him 100%.
Here is part of that story:

"If Conduit is Named Male Turf Champion: I've never understood how voters can bestow Eclipse Awards on European horses who come over here and win one race, even if that one race is a Breeders' Cup event. It looks like they're going to do it again. With no American-based turf male having had an outstanding year, voters seem poised to hand a championship to Breeders' Cup Turf winner Conduit. Voters seem to keep forgetting that Eclipse Awards are supposed to be awarded to horses for overall excellence over the course of an entire year. Though neither would be a stellar champion, Grand Couturier and Einstein far better fit the Eclipse bill than Conduit does."

"If Goldikova Wins an Eclipse: Here's another category where the voters might give a championship to a European one-race wonder. Goldikova turned in a smashing performance in the Breeders' Cup Mile, and there are voters eager to give her the Filly & Mare Turf championship based off the one performance.

For her to win an Eclipse Award would be a worse injustice than Conduit winning one. In Conduit's case, at least the American-based competition is exceptionally weak. Goldikova is going up against a worthy candidate in Forever Together. She won four stakes in 2008, three of them Grade 1's, and also won a Breeders' Cup race. Her win in the Breeders' Cup Filly & Mare Turf should have sealed an Eclipse Award, but Goldikova has a lot of supporters, as misguided as they may be."

My sentiments, exactly.

[JustRalph]

You didn't see the last line?

"I sat in a car beside a nothing-much road watching wild horses run like they were warming up to film a Budweiser commercial. Wild horses, mustangs, live in this protected nature preserve. Talk about a big piece of heaven: The mustangs would kick at each other, and buck at each other, and chase one another up rocky slopes and down steep inclines, banging shoulders, clipping heels, flashing teeth.

Then they were gone, and you sit there wondering, what's up with all the fake dirt for race horses? "

[joanied]

You didn't see the last line?

"I sat in a car beside a nothing-much road watching wild horses run like they were warming up to film a Budweiser commercial. Wild horses, mustangs, live in this protected nature preserve. Talk about a big piece of heaven: The mustangs would kick at each other, and buck at each other, and chase one another up rocky slopes and down steep inclines, banging shoulders, clipping heels, flashing teeth.

Then they were gone, and you sit there wondering, what's up with all the fake dirt for race horses? "

Oh s**t...I did read that last line and never snapped to it:blush: :bang: Of course, you really can't compare the Mustangs with the Thoroughbred, for obvious reasons... they might be horses, but through the natural course of 'evolution', the Mustang is a tough beast that can withstand the terrain they live on.
But...his point is well taken...horses are supposed to be on dirt/grass.....not plastic, rubber and Lord knows what else.

And again, I stick with my opinion that with the correct 'ingredients', a well maintained DIRT track kicks the crap outta polycrap!!!

[joanied]

after I wrote the above I read this article on the front page of PA. The trainers are saying what some of us have said from the get go. The trainers words says it all.

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/48696.htm?id=48696&source=rss

Maybe these 5 breakdowns at SA was a blessing in disguise...and now they even have Pearson admitting to not understanding what's going on...the trainers that walked the track did a great service...just the mention that they found holes in the track sent shivers down my spine...I mean, holys**t.... a moron could see that this surface just isn't working...it's time for these guys to bite the bullet, swallow their so called pride and admit...they really f**#%@ up....big time.

What a mess this is:mad:

[slewis]

From the very beginning, I, and a few others on this board, said the truth of the polycrap tracks would eventually come to the surface. (Pun very much intended). I compared the whole thing to football installing artificial surfaces because they were supposedly "SAFER" and said it would probably be less than 5 years and the Racing/Horse Industry would realize they were being sold a bunch of horse sh*t. These surfaces are not safer, they are more expensive and do require more maintenance.

The whole PolyCrap mess is the salesmanship of a few key "hoity toity" influential individuals in this Industry, who wish to Europeanize American racing. In essence they have sold ice to the Eskimos.

It is what is. Wake up and smell the horse sh*t on those boots. The best thing is for American racing to get back to dirt and concentrate on growing their customer base. These are the folks that put money into racing and through the windows. It starts and ends with the Customer. It's a shame the Industry has never and still doesn't realize this.

A bunch of fu**ing idiots. :bang:

It's funny.. a few months ago I posted how the "elitists" in this sport are changing the rules to suit their agenda... and polycrap was part of the game plan.
In today's racing form... an article surfaced addressing the breakdowns at Turfway in the last few weeks.
The "solution"... Let's now allow horses to race with toe grabs behind to give them more traction. Ha ha ha....

Are these guys a bunch of clowns or what????????
I am SOOOO very happy that the handles are down nationwide so dramatically. I hope EVERY racetrack executive loses their job. They are no different then the wafflers at GM. Big salaries... little results..... no vison of the future....
This is what you get when you implement policy and changes WITHOUT doing proper research.

Here's what I would have done if I were a racing executive in So. Cal:

1) Try to figure out why the dirt tracks are so damn hard out there.
If it's the weather and heat... I'd run soil tests..... then I'd look at a track like Tampa Bay Downs surface. (It has similar weather to southern cal except a bit more humidity) That surface is very safe... and they race bad, beaten up horses there (in Tampa) .. very few breakdowns.
2) I'd rip up the dirt and fly dirt in from another part of the country if I couldn't get the consistancy and chemical composition I wanted.
3) I'd pressure every state vet to thoroughly examine each horse racing that day and I'd ABSOLUTELY require that every vet that taps a knee or ankle records the procedure and that records are forwarded to the racing office.
If a horse snaps a leg... Id cross reference his medical history... and question the vet. The more pressure you put on the vets ... the less chances they will take. The less chances... the less breakdowns.
4) Illegal positives for pain blockage will carry MAJOR suspensions......
For trainers that want to race their unsound horses with masking drugs, etc, good luck.. if we catch you... you're going to need that good luck.

I GUARANTEE this would get So cal racing back on the right path... not POLYTRACK.

[ralph_the_cat]

(although I must admit, I don't recall any clusters of breakdowns over any turf course in recent memory...then again, they don't run as many turf races as dirt races....)


There has been an obvious on going problem at Santa Anita... They should go full synthetic or full dirt with a proven company... Pro-Ride wasnt among the highest "respected" synthetic surfaces to begin with... Tapeta has proven the best, and has been used for decades... what Im getting at, is Santa Anitas surface/Pro-ride doesnt reflect all synthetic surfaces one bit, thats like comparing say Emeralds dirt course who came close to setting records a year or two for the most breakdowns per starter, we dont use that surface to represent dirt... Surfaces need to be compared individually... I dont feel Santa Anita needs the surface, but thats another story, some tracks do need it...TP etc...

What I wanted to get to is.... because Santa Anita is the top of our sport and it has a synthetic surface every horse thats eased, theres a blog or thread started...

THE LAST 3 DAYS at Gulfstream park didnt get a single thread or mention?... the last 3 days at Gulfstream in just 12 turf races there were 4 horses that DNF'd including one that was euthanized on the track and I could only assume by how lame some of the others were, that possibly a couple of the other 3 that DNF'd/trailered off, were euthanized or had to undergo an emergency surgery (those 4 do not included that saddle slip on that one horse that was pulled up) Not to mention the past few days there were several horses eased and stopped in the stretch on the dirt course that were never asked to run much during the race (not a breathing problem)...

atleast 4 horses were vanned off Gulfstreams turf course the last 3 days... Its hard to keep up with every race in the country, unless theres a blog or thread about it, some stuff slips by us...

[cj]

There has been an obvious on going problem at Santa Anita... They should go full synthetic or full dirt with a proven company...

Turfway is also having problems, and they use polytrack.

The only people that didn't buy the whole safety thing that I know are the bettors, and as usual they know more about the sport than most in charge.

On a side note, there are some very good synthetic turf courses in use overseas that have greatly reduced catastrophic injuries. If anyone is interested, there is more in the book by Bill Finley on synthetic surfaces. I surprisingly found it good. There is a thread about it here. (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51008)

[slewis]

[QUOTE=ralph_the_cat]There has been an obvious on going problem at Santa Anita... They should go full synthetic or full dirt with a proven company... Pro-Ride wasnt among the highest "respected" synthetic surfaces to begin with... Tapeta has proven the best, and has been used for decades... what Im getting at, is Santa Anitas surface/Pro-ride doesnt reflect all synthetic surfaces one bit.


Nonsense regarding ALL poly surfaces... not to mention no serious horse player wants to bet them..

And by the way... Has anyone done a study of the long term health riskd of jockeys breathing in the dust of ground tires!!!!!

Wait 10 yrs from now when the law suits hit.... they'll rip this shit out real quick.

[PaceAdvantage]

And by the way... Has anyone done a study of the long term health riskd of jockeys breathing in the dust of ground tires!!!!!I worry about this greatly, for both jockey and horse. I am constantly amazed at the amount of kickback generated at Turfway. It's incredible.

If you're a jock at Turfway and you're not wearing a mask, you're nuts.

[ralph_the_cat]

Turfway is also having problems, and they use polytrack.

The only people that didn't buy the whole safety thing that I know are the bettors, and as usual they know more about the sport than most in charge.

On a side note, there are some very good synthetic turf courses in use overseas that have greatly reduced catastrophic injuries. If anyone is interested, there is more in the book by Bill Finley on synthetic surfaces. I surprisingly found it good. There is a thread about it here. (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51008)

They are not "having problems" with their surface... they had 8 breakdowns in 21 days... Gulfstream has had 4 breakdowns on their turf course in 3 days, I dont see an article that they are having trouble with their surface... so an increase in breakdowns instantly means something is wrong with the surface?... Emerald was averaging a breakdown every 2.5 days... but people dont see whats going on in other surfaces... its all about synthetic... a horse or two goes down in one day or one week, and theres an article in the Thoroughbred Times: "Synthetic Surfaces Dont Work"

[ralph_the_cat]

Nonsense regarding ALL poly surfaces... not to mention no serious horse player wants to bet them..

And by the way... Has anyone done a study of the long term health riskd of jockeys breathing in the dust of ground tires!!!!!

Wait 10 yrs from now when the law suits hit.... they'll rip this shit out real quick.

I dont know what you are talking about, I never stated anything about Poly track surfaces in that post...

and surprisingly, the jockeys that I personally know that have rode or ride at TP dont complain about it... they said it always looks worse than it really is... and most say its better than getting hit with frozen chunks or slop like in previous years...

and its not dust from ground tires, they're fibers, please, do yourself a favor and go walk out onto a synthetic surface sometime...

[PaceAdvantage]

They are not "having problems" with their surface... they had 8 breakdowns in 21 days... Gulfstream has had 4 breakdowns on their turf course in 3 days, I dont see an article that they are having trouble with their surface... so an increase in breakdowns instantly means something is wrong with the surface?... Emerald was averaging a breakdown every 2.5 days... but people dont see whats going on in other surfaces... its all about synthetic... a horse or two goes down in one day or one week, and theres an article in the Thoroughbred Times: "Synthetic Surfaces Dont Work"The point is, synthetic surfaces are not necessary, as it is apparent they don't cure the "breakdown cluster" problem, which was the VERY REASON WHY they were forced down the throats of everyone in California in the first place!

Why point to Gulfstream or Emerald? Synthetics are supposed to be markedly superior to dirt surfaces as far as breakdowns are concerned. 8 breakdowns in 21 days doesn't sound superior to me....

Saratoga...dirt surface...0 breakdowns over 36 days (or was it 35 due to cancellation) in 2008.

[ralph_the_cat]

The point is, synthetic surfaces are not necessary, as it is apparent they don't cure the "breakdown cluster" problem, which was the VERY REASON WHY they were forced down the throats of everyone in California in the first place!

Why point to Gulfstream or Emerald? Synthetics are supposed to be markedly superior to dirt surfaces as far as breakdowns are concerned. 8 breakdowns in 21 days doesn't sound superior to me....

Saratoga...dirt surface...0 breakdowns over 36 days (or was it 35 due to cancellation) in 2008.

Ive always disagreed with synthetic surfaces being placed in Cali, I dont believe they needed them... I fully support synthetic surfaces at places were they need them... like TP... Cali jumped the gun on synthetics, Im not arguing that... but to say synthetics dont work because a few horses go down isnt a good evaluation, Proride at Santa Anita didnt work, they've had drainage problems, they've had trainer complain, and they have had horses breakdown at a rate only slightly lower than the dirt days...

I pointed to Gulfstream and Emerald for the same reason others pointed to Santa Anita... there were lots of breakdowns... and you brought up about not seeing a cluster of breakdowns over turf surfaces in some time, I was just letting you know that there were 4 on Gulfstreams turf surface the last 3 days...

New York has always had their surfaces in great shape, and IMO, have a classy load of trainers and owners that run up there... I cant say the same about California Racing... have they ever had a meet with zero breakdowns in CA?... goes back to what you stated early in this thread, breakdowns reflect way more than the surface, horses will go down regardless, but that doesnt mean a synthetic surface isnt safer for the horse... We all agree what has gone on in CA the last 2 years has been a joke, The bettors didnt want a mandate on the surface, and trainers didnt either, it was a mandate beyond our control... but I could argue until the cows come home that other tracks that have installed Synthetic surfaces are better off with them... but I'll move on...

[DrugS]

THE LAST 3 DAYS at Gulfstream park didnt get a single thread or mention?...atleast 4 horses were vanned off Gulfstreams turf course the last 3 days... Its hard to keep up with every race in the country, unless theres a blog or thread about it, some stuff slips by us...

You are really jumping to conclusions.

The Maker horse that broke down was plunging in class - and running 1st time for a tag.

The other three horses appeared to be eased after struggling in 12 horse fields. The one today had never even run over the turf before.

There is a difference between DNF's in full fields - and actual on the spot breakdowns. According to the charts, not a single one of the three was vanned off.

But hey, whatever suits your arguement I guess.

[Bobzilla]

Probably one of the biggest lessons learned from the synthetic experiment is that if these surfaces are in fact safer, which I don't personally believe they are, then they're not so much safer than dirt as to cover up inscrupulous training and veterinary practices that more than anything else lead to a breakdown. These surfaces have probably given many horsemen a false sense of security and some have undoubtably brought over horses that were known to be soar and on the decline.

Ralph the Cat has mentioned that the mandated conversion to AWSs in California wasn't necessary but in other racing jurisdictions across America they may have been. If that argument is based on weather sensitivity I would ask why couldn't a place like Turfway Park install a winterized dirt surface as is used on the Aqueduct Inner?

I remember when I first started to hear about synthetics back in 2005 during the weeks leading to the start of the TP Fall Meet. The arguments in favor of TP's conversion, at the time, were along the lines of a surface easier and more cost effiecient to maintain and less likely to freeze and lead to a cancellation. It was also maintained that the surfaces were bias free and would play fair to all running styles and the track speed would fluctuate less ( my original misgivings). Safety was mentioned but more as an afterthought and not as the primary selling point. Not until the following spring, especially around the time of Barbaro's breakdown, was safety beginning to be mentioned as the primary reason for the installs. "We need to think of the horse first" mantra was being used as the red herring it is all the time, often times by those with an interest in the marketing of the surfaces and also, ironically, by some horsemen whose career's would never have reflected a "horse first" mentality as ever being prevelent behind their decision making. Biancone comes to mind.

If it's true that the AWS experience overseas has been a safer one then it probably reflects more on their training/veterinary/racing practices more than the inherent safety characterisitcs of Polytrack, as well as the fact AWS surfaces overseas don't take the steady pounding through constant a.m. training and longer race meets. Given our ways of conducting racing here in North America AWSs are probably not appropriate. Besides, seeing that most of these surfaces play more like turf than dirt (not always but usually) and favor those horses with turf backgrounds and breeding, are we not losing an important element of our own rich racing heritage, that being our game consisting of 2 games in one, dirt and turf, and the unique differences between the two in regard to race dynamics? Having dirt and turf and at times moving an animal back and forth leads to more variables for consideration and makes the game more challenging, fun, intriguing and in the long run potentially profitable to the more erudite of players. Furthermore, the differences between dirt and turf also help to ensure less likelihood of certain breeding lines becoming overused thus weakening the breed even more than it's been already.

[ralph_the_cat]

You are really jumping to conclusions.

The Maker horse that broke down was plunging in class - and running 1st time for a tag.

The other three horses appeared to be eased after struggling in 12 horse fields. The one today had never even run over the turf before.

There is a difference between DNF's in full fields - and actual on the spot breakdowns. According to the charts, not a single one of the three was vanned off.

But hey, whatever suits your arguement I guess.

If a horse doesnt cross the finish line, 99% they get vanned off... what ever the case may be there were 4 lame horses... 1 was euthanized on the track...

[slewis]

I dont know what you are talking about, I never stated anything about Poly track surfaces in that post...

and surprisingly, the jockeys that I personally know that have rode or ride at TP dont complain about it... they said it always looks worse than it really is... and most say its better than getting hit with frozen chunks or slop like in previous years...

and its not dust from ground tires, they're fibers, please, do yourself a favor and go walk out onto a synthetic surface sometime...

Ralph...

With all due respect... Tapeta is.. and I quote from their web site "a combination of sand, rubber, and fiber". I believe you stated Tapeta was the best or one of.

The rubber comes from either ground tires or used hockey pucks. Im picking tires.
All kidding aside...

We race in NY in the winter and when the track gets frozen, they cancel. If ice chunks are being thrown at jocks.. TP should cancel.
Im not a Doctor, or Vet.. but you mark my words... you will see respiratory issues down the road on these artificial surfaces. They will all be gone (for racing) in 15 years or less.
Next issue is that of the handle. If the next generation of horseplayers, (if we have such in this economy) doesn't embrace it, all the safety in the world (which does not really exist anyway)wont matter.
Here's the "truth" ... UNSOUND horses will break down regardless of the surface. Hard racetracks will break horses down.
Dirt wont, turf wont, poly wont break horses down unless those surfaces are particularly unsafe due to THE TRACKS general condition (i.e... a turf course that has many holes in it)
Case closed.

Thanks for your response.

[ralph_the_cat]

Ralph...

With all due respect... Tapeta is.. and I quote from their web site "a combination of sand, rubber, and fiber". I believe you stated Tapeta was the best or one of.

The rubber comes from either ground tires or used hockey pucks. Im picking tires.
All kidding aside...

We race in NY in the winter and when the track gets frozen, they cancel. If ice chunks are being thrown at jocks.. TP should cancel.
Im not a Doctor, or Vet.. but you mark my words... you will see respiratory issues down the road on these artificial surfaces. They will all be gone (for racing) in 15 years or less.
Next issue is that of the handle. If the next generation of horseplayers, (if we have such in this economy) doesn't embrace it, all the safety in the world (which does not really exist anyway)wont matter.
Here's the "truth" ... UNSOUND horses will break down regardless of the surface. Hard racetracks will break horses down.
Dirt wont, turf wont, poly wont break horses down unless those surfaces are particularly unsafe due to THE TRACKS general condition (i.e... a turf course that has many holes in it)
Case closed.

Thanks for your response.
yes tapeta is the best IMO,
and... krist I know what makes up a synthetic surface... but its not just ground rubber was my point, the fibers practically incase the rubber and sand to hold the track together, fibers kind of like tiny snow flakes kick back at the riders... not small dust like particles, that can be easily inhaled... and if you learned anything about the structure of a horses nostrils/nasal passage you would realize the likeliness of a horse inhaling a fiber w/rubber is like hitting the lottery... as far as humans inhaling it... a human could get down on his hands and knees and try and inhale a line of tapeta like coc, the likeliness of a human even getting one piece into his nose is doubtful, unless you have a huge honker with powerful longs... the smallest particle in the mixture is the sand, which is in all surfaces...

so you can understand the horses nostril and structure, consider this, many people bed their horse in small wood chips/shavings, the few times a horse has ever developed problems are in rare cases like after tie back surgeries, or they swallow them and a freakish occurance such as a piece getting stuck on the horse palate or something happens... a few trainers stay away from wood chips only because of the small dust that some wood chip companies have too much of, the microscopic dust is the main concern, not the tiny,tiny, wood chips that are visible to the eye, but the microscopic dust... point being, we can bed horses on small chips/shavings and other materials because the horses nasal structure lets us...

and where on earth do you come up with tapeta surface being made from tires? besides a blog or some other posters suggestion...

TP runs in winter months if you didnt notice, if they cancelled everytime the track got chunky they could only run when its above freezing... of course unsound horse "can" breakdown on any surface, but this is where some people are missing the point, its not just about helping unsound horses, its about preventing horses from receiving the relatively minor injuries that could lead to more serious issues... TP had 8 horses go down... isnt this the same track that has had breakdowns in the teens back in the dirt days???

In warm climates, like Santa Anita, I dont feel there is any reason to have them...

[ralph_the_cat]

I remember when I first started to hear about synthetics back in 2005 during the weeks leading to the start of the TP Fall Meet. The arguments in favor of TP's conversion, at the time, were along the lines of a surface easier and more cost effiecient to maintain and less likely to freeze and lead to a cancellation. It was also maintained that the surfaces were bias free and would play fair to all running styles and the track speed would fluctuate less ( my original misgivings). Safety was mentioned but more as an afterthought and not as the primary selling point. Not until the following spring, especially around the time of Barbaro's breakdown, was safety beginning to be mentioned as the primary reason for the installs. "We need to think of the horse first" mantra was being used as the red herring it is all the time, often times by those with an interest in the marketing of the surfaces and also, ironically, by some horsemen whose career's would never have reflected a "horse first" mentality as ever being prevelent behind their decision making. Biancone comes to mind.


nice post...

as far as this section, I agree with a ton... my first thoughts behind the surface was that it IS easier to maintain if you go with a trusted company, not try something new (Santa Anita)... and it was mainly for tracks with cancellations and sloppy conditions... its safer than running on slop, "case closed"... but then as a selling point, and horse people that pushed safety, they decided to push the issue based on safety alone... I see no reason to place synthetic surfaces in relatively dry areas...

as far as why TP didnt do like AQU... first the climate is slightly different, but a big reason is that they do run at night which is totally different than day racing when it comes winter months... and also, dirt surfaces need to be replaced more often than people think... synthetics surfaces, although the up front cost is expensive, long term its easier to maintain and you dont have to replace it after a meet or 2 or yearly, depending on the track...

[kenwoodallpromos]

Do weird track conditions cause big pick 6 csrryovers?

[Charlie D]

Here's what i find interesting

There are four Polytrack surfaces and one fibresand surface in UK, but there does not seem to be anywhere near the attrition rate reported like in US


Nad Al Sheba Dirt track, anyone know of a significant amount of breakdowns being reported from there



UNSOUND horses will break down regardless of the surface


Is Slewis on the right path???

[Tom]

I think what is obvious here is that no matter what surface, you need to properly maintain it and know when to cancel. Poly might be the best thing there is, but if the crew doesn't know how to take care of it it is worthless.
One this is very clear, though, the promises of no bias, no off tracks, was a complete lie. This stuff seems to quirkier than dirt ever was.

[JustRalph]

Stakes winnner injured........

http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=37506

Alpha Kitten injured on Thursday.