And to the tracks of the country a big FU too

[Foolish Pleasure]

Wow,

After repressing the outrageous price of the form for decades,

it finally felt good to take a shot at someone who gives a damn.

So in the same vein in the prayer that the same track type of guy is around.

FU too, charging me upteen percent to bet for decades, I learned the art of betting offshore, deposit bonuses instead of fees, getting rebates, keeping my money out of the pools and out of your grubby hands.

I hope the watered down scraps of Pik3's and Pik6's you're currently receiving from my end provide graphic illustration of the effects of hosing your customers for so long.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's simple economics. Let's compare the DRF to the Wall Street Journal.

Sure, the Wall Street Journal is what, $1.00 per copy these days. It has comparable info and articles to the DRF, only difference is the WSJ covers the business world rather than the world horse racing....

HOWEVER, the daily subscription and newsstand sales of the WSJ DWARF the number of copies sold per day of the Daily Racing Form. In order to SURVIVE, the DRF must charge what they do for that paper.

If the DRF had half the daily readership the WSJ has, the price of the DRF would be much, much lower.....

The DRF has a right to make a profit on their product.


==PA

[gillenr]

Just to elaborate on your WSJ/DRF comments, it is a fact of life in the printing industry that your first copy off the press costs WAAAY more than the last.

So Marc, just let me buy the last one!

[dav4463]

I can't handicap without the DRF, so they have me buying at any price. Actually, the subscription prices on the downloadable form are very reasonable. As for the print issue, I don't think $1 per track is really all that much.

[alysheba88]

While we're discussing prices, I dont think a $1-2 admission price is bad either for the track. When you consider you can go to Belmont or Saratoga or someplace like that and see world class athletes up close and personal. See how much it costs for a Yankee or Met game. I understand many view horse racing as "just gambling" and so compare to casinos. But there are some of us who look at it as sport as well.

[Foolish Pleasure]

LOL

Simple economics,

monopoly equals unlimited pricing power,

save the newsprint industry for those that know,

I'll never forget having to shell out nearly $15 to buy enough forms to cover the entire country.

[Foolish Pleasure]

Sure $1 -$2 admission isn't bad after paying $1000 in transaction costs to bet, it's a drop in the bucket.

[PaceAdvantage]

FP,

If you ever set foot in a racetrack again, take a good look around you. See how many people actually buy the DRF.

With the invention of Equibase and individual track programs containing PPs, the sale of paper DRFs was eroded that much further. These guys are routinely outsold by the track's equibase programs, and quite handily at some venues I would venture to guess. One of the numbers I once heard detailing the average numbers of DRFs sold per day nationwide was shocking. I can't remember the exact number, so I'm not going to guess at it here....but I will say it floored me with how low it was....

But, when you think about it, racetrack attendance in most places is pitiful these days. I'd say maybe 10-20% (and this is probably a GENEROUS %) at most of those in attendance actually buy a DRF. Can you see now why they have to price it where they do??

Do you really think the DRF can get away with selling their paper for $1.50 and still stay in business with all other things remaining equal????

The DRF hasn't had a monopoly in lord knows how many years.....yet instead of lowering their price to increase market share, they have had to INCREASE the price to stay alive.

Where the solution to this lies is anyone's guess. Certainly, the on-line market is the future. But to suggest the DRF is pricing their product excessively, acting as a monopoly, and just raking in the dough seems misguided at best.

And again, I say the DRF has a right to make a profit on its product. If their equilibrium point is $5.00, then so be it. The market obviously supports this price, as the DRF is still in business, and still bringing in revenue....

==PA

[alysheba88]

Pace, I'd go as far as to guess only 2-3% who go to the track buy the Form. And I totally agree, there is no monopoly now.

In the Pre-Crist era DRF did many things (if not everything) wrong. They were the perfect example of a monopolistic and arrogant company with disdain for their customers. I too remember, when I used to play a few different tracks, having to buy multiple forms. I also remember how innovations only came about after they got real competition. Can understand Foolish Pleasure's anger about that. But this is a completely different company now. Being made at this regime because of the past is illogical to me. Not many companies where you can run into the guy who runs it and chat with him and be treated respectfully.

If players dont feel the prices are worth it, then they won't buy and DRF will go under. If enough of us do find value in their products they will be around for a long time. Am betting the latter.

[alysheba88]

Being mad at the current regime is illogical I meant. Not made. LOL.

[PaceAdvantage]

aly,

2-3% is probably more like it. I can probably find out the exact number sometime in the next day or so....



==PA

[alysheba88]

Thanks, would be interesting Pace thats for sure. Hard to measure cause some buy their form at the track (measuring that is easy), but there are others like me and Im assuming most of the people here, who buy their form in advance and bring it with them. If there are 5,000 at Aqueduct 3% would mean 150 people have a form. Maybe thats a little low. 5% would be 250 that may be closer to it. In any event its low thats for sure.

[Whirlaway]

I believe the DRF has a circulation of around 40,000, which is down from 125,000 in the mid 80's. Considering the Crist group bought the paper for a rumored 30 to 40 million (the previous owners paid 400 million), I'll bet they're getting a very reasonable return on investment.

[Foolish Pleasure]

Of course Whirlaway doesn't know that in the same timeperiod the price of newsprint has plummetted frfom around .30/lb to somewhere in the mid teens,

to answer your question, it is yes, if they cannot afford to seel the paper for $1.50 and make a profit, then they shouldn't be in business.

which is all of course besides the fact,

they hosed me for over two decades

I wouldn't buy their publication if it was the last thing on earth,

and I feel sorry for all those that are beholden to it.


Pace if you'd like a detailed breakdown of their costs and the outrageous profit margins that accompany them, I'm certain we could do it from scratch, my background is in the paper and paper converting business.

[alysheba88]

Unless I am misunderstanding FW, you seem to be suggesting that printing is their only, or at least primary cost. What about rent, salaries, disitribution costs, computers, etc. I understand that these are all costs to other newspapers too. However, the DRF, and I am guessing here, probably does not get nearly the same ad revenue of other regular publications.

If you take your $1.50 and multiply it number of sold copies, do you think it would cover all their expenses?

I would also add, that as you probably know there has been a lot of consolidation in the newspaper industry with many companies going down in flames.

[PaceAdvantage]

FW,

I'm in the publishing business as well...


==PA

[Marc At DRF]

A few things-

A) The market penetration is higher than 3% everywhere, and much higher in certain places.

B) I believe it's on the public record that we average 50-60,000 print editions sold per day. In that vicinity.

C) Clearly, we will survive without Foolish Pleasure's business. But I do feel compelled once again to try to explain to him that his hostility is, in my opinion, misguided. The people who were arrogant near-monopolists DON'T WORK HERE ANYMORE. The guy who tried to start something viable to compete-- the Racing Times-- ended up buying the paper. The DRF name remains the same, but it's a new company with a new agenda, as compared to what you were used to before. Once again: The war is over. The good guys won. If you're getting your PPs elesewhere, I hope it's working out well for you. But to harbor hostility towards the DRF because of the actions of people who don't work here anymore, I just don't get it.

[Holy Bull]

DRF's main problem (and pretty much everyone in the old industry) is that it refuses to embrace the information era. Yeah DRF is online now, but they do such a small % of what they should. Basically you can get the print version in pdf format for about the same price. No extra data, no extra features, not much savings despite drf's "high printing cost". The only extra effort they made to give their customers more was that dreadful formulator product. They even have the nerve to charge extra for some news/columns unless you get a long term subscription. Compare this to say any of the HDW based softwares where you get much more information and can do a whole lot more with it for about 1/2 the price.

[Marc At DRF]

"DRF's main problem (and pretty much everyone in the old industry) is that it refuses to embrace the information era."

DRF refused to embrace the information era for many years-- that changed in the last 4 years, and we've been playing catch-up ever since, with the company making considerable strides in the last 2 years, particularly. I believe you'll see things from us in the next several months, with the introduction of our new database, that will move us into a realm where no one else really is.

It's overdue, but it's coming.

"Basically you can get the print version in pdf format for about the same price."

A longterm subscription saves considerable dough. If you'll only commit to us online for a single day, we're not going to pass the sort of savings along that you would want. Commit longterm, and we'll make it well-worth your while.


"The only extra effort they made to give their customers more was that dreadful formulator product."

1/3rd of our online customers use Formulator, an extremly high number, if you know anything about the reticence of online consumers to download software. I suspect you haven't checked out what we're doing with Formulator lately. And I think you might be impressed with where it goes next.

"They even have the nerve to charge extra for some news/columns unless you get a long term subscription."

I know, the nerve of us to not give away everything for free to everyone.

[Early]

Compared to admission fees, parking, concession prices, takout, breakage..... I think the DRF is a great value myself. If I wager $1,000 then the $5 works out to 0.5% and I feel it gives me an advantage over some fools who are betting without it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me I was paying $5 for the DRF about 20 years ago and still am. Factoring inflation, that is a good deal.

[Holy Bull]

DRF refused to embrace the information era for many years-- that changed in the last 4 years, and we've been playing catch-up ever since, with the company making considerable strides in the last 2 years, particularly. I believe you'll see things from us in the next several months, with the introduction of our new database, that will move us into a realm where no one else really is.

It's overdue, but it's coming.


Sounds good, look forward to it. At least you guys realize you are way behind where you should be at this point.


A longterm subscription saves considerable dough. If you'll only commit to us online for a single day, we're not going to pass the sort of savings along that you would want. Commit longterm, and we'll make it well-worth your while.


I have done longterm subscriptions in the past, and you save but they are still high, and almost average out to close to $1 a card. TSN is .50 cents per card. $249.99 for unlimited 1 month vs. $119-$129 for most of the HDW-based products.


1/3rd of our online customers use Formulator, an extremly high number, if you know anything about the reticence of online consumers to download software. I suspect you haven't checked out what we're doing with Formulator lately. And I think you might be impressed with where it goes next.


Very impressive that 1/3 number. I definitely know the reticence of online consumers to download software, I have my own and can't get people to download it. I checked out Formulator maybe 6-8 months ago, it was cumbersome and didn't seem to add much value, will check it out again.

I know, the nerve of us to not give away everything for free to everyone.

Didn't say everything should be free. But if I download a drf for a day, I should at least get the same columns as I would buying a print version. I walk down to 7-11, a drf is $4.00 with 4 tracks in there. I buy the same cards online, it is $4.50 plus I can't get the same news? Obviously you guys can charge what you want, but it kind of hurts the whole "printing costs" argument.

[Marc At DRF]

"I have done longterm subscriptions in the past, and you save but they are still high, and almost average out to close to $1 a card. TSN is .50 cents per card. $249.99 for unlimited 1 month vs. $119-$129 for most of the HDW-based products."

Our unlimited monthly PPs are in fact $99.95.
As for 50 cent cards, you get what you pay for. If you're looking for basic info like that, with none of the enhancements, there are indeed other places to go that make more sense than DRF.


"But if I download a drf for a day, I should at least get the same columns as I would buying a print version. I walk down to 7-11, a drf is $4.00 with 4 tracks in there. I buy the same cards online, it is $4.50 plus I can't get the same news? Obviously you guys can charge what you want, but it kind of hurts the whole 'printing costs' argument."

I hear you, it was long-discussed here before we implemented it, but ultimately we really want to do everythign we can to compel customers to use our longterm plans. Making our columnists available only to longterm (monthly or longer) subscribers has helped us grow this part of our subscriber base. I've got mixed feelings about it, but I also know that the longterm subscriptions are cheaper per card for the subscribers, in most cases.

[JustRalph]

A couple of weeks ago I canceled my TSN Advantage plan because I decided I wasn't using it enough lately and i would just buy some Bris cards when I wanted to play. No big deal.
I have a program that automatically downloads the programs from TSN and it runs on its own with a few other horse racing related apps I have. This happens a couple of times a day and the TSN app grabs everything that is new on their site for me. (no I cannot give the program to you, it's a secret , the way it works is convoluted) It Works great though and only every once in a while does it hiccup because of my internet connection. Well I canceled the advantage plan a week or more ago and forgot to take this app out of my automated process. I didn't even notice it was still running while I was doing regular updates (Hell I had forgotten that the month rolled over a few days ago ) So this morning I get a call from a very nice lady at TSN who tells me that she wanted to verify that I wanted to cancel the TSN plan, "because you are till doing substantial downloads every day" I replied: "Oh I forgot to cancel that program." She advised me that she would be glad to continue the flat rate TSN $59 plan if I like, because my balance after 3 days was around $150. She offered to make it retro-active to the 1st of the month. I took her up on her offer.

I am glad I just didn't get a bill at the end of the month or whatever (a charge on my credit card) could you imagine what that would have run? I call this good customer relations. I will buy all of my products from them from this day forward.

Mark: Do you think DRF would have done that? Or would I have just received a nice big bill?

[Tom]

Originally posted by JustRalph

Mark: Do you think DRF would have done that? Or would I have just received a nice big bill?

DRF did not even honor pre-paid subscriptions on its own product after their meltdown after 911. Not having the business best practices of data back ups is one thing, but blatantly reducing unlimited subscriptions to a couple of weeks of downloads is really low and frankly, cheap. I lost all respect for Crist then and will never think of him with anything but total contempt ever again. From innovator to corporate flunky, how far the mighty have fallen. DRF could have made good, but saving a few bucks was more important than its integrity.

[cj]

One other thing, why doesn't DRF credit your account when racing cards are cancelled? Would this be so hard?

I don't know if other providers do this, anyone else know?

CJ

[Marc At DRF]

"DRF did not even honor pre-paid subscriptions on its own product after their meltdown after 911. "


This is untue. Make-goods were sent out to everyone affected. Thousands of people. Most were happy with what we offered.

[andicap]

My experiences with the DRF people have been positive ones. When i expressed frustration a couple of years ago about unable to find Simulcast Weekly near my home, their top circulation execs sprung into action and within a couple of weeks, a local store had the publication.
I appreciate what Harry, did, Mark as well as your intervention.

On the flip side, I think the best handicappers on this board are better than the DRF writers. On the other hand, the DRF people do have the ability to string a few coherent sentences together -- a critical ability for a newspaper/whatever you call it. So they have a better ability to communicate their ideas than a lot of good handicappers here.

In the end, DRF people are more writers than handicappers I think.

[takeout]

Originally posted by Marc At DRF
"DRF did not even honor pre-paid subscriptions on its own product after their meltdown after 911. "


This is untue. Make-goods were sent out to everyone affected. Thousands of people. Most were happy with what we offered.
DRF must not have sent the make-up info to BRIS. They had a gap in their DRF data files of at least three days and probably still do. How absurd is it to have a company (BRIS) that archives and gets its info from DRF, a company that doesn't archive? And, why didn't DRF go back to Equibase and get the missing data and send it to BRIS? If this was somehow BRIS's fault I'd like to know it. How can a company tolerate gaps in information when they are in the business of selling data?

[Marc At DRF]

"DRF must not have sent the make-up info to BRIS. "

No, we sent them to BRIS. Belatedly, by a few weeks, but we did indeed send them.

[takeout]

Hmmm... And all this time I had been laying it off on DRF. Now what do you suppose BRIS did with that data - that they are supposedly in the business of selling? I should call them. It seems to be pretty much of a given that very few things ever get fixed after the fact in the PP industry but this is "p-poor". It also reflects badly on DRF because they are "BRIS DRF" data files (whatever that means). How does that work? DRF buys the data from EQ and then BRIS buys it from DRF? How come everybody else buys straight from EQ? DRF is no longer a/the wholesaler, right? What a mess!

[Jrdhorse]

I agree totally on the over pricing of the Daily Racing Form and any other cost that us guys have to put up with when visiting the track onsite. As for the racing form besides being over priced it doesnt not carry all tracks that are available for a certain day especially the small tracks. I use a publication put out by Sports Eye which is a small booklet with condensed past performances and it usually has all the tracks running on any given day including the minor tracks it has them all and is easy to carry around since it is so compact. I dont know if DRF is in on this book or not. It will have 20 tracks past performances all condensed in this book also including the night tracks. It costs about 3 dollars for all the tracks as opposed to DRF more expensive and has less tracks.
I also agree about the offshore books that will give you a rebate on all horse wagered money every week although the capped exotic wagers arent very good. But it is fine for straight win bets and exactas. If a racebook online is going to give me 3 percent on all money wagered that is just outstanding!!!!

I hope the Government doesnt start trying to move in on the action or even worse shut the offshore books down in the future. It would be a sad day if that happens. If it does there is always TVG YOUBET and XPRESSBET that will take our action but minus the rebate.
But for now this guy will stay at home and use his offshore race book with that juicy rebate. And wont buy the DRF with its limited tracks available publication at a steep price for paper and ink. I will stick with the Sports Eye booklet that has them all for much cheaper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!