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View Full Version : Penn National Way Ahead Of MNR on Cancelled Cards


Nmytwenties
12-17-2008, 10:01 PM
Starting to wonder if they will ever run again, PEN has lost 5 straight cards. They resurfaced the track a while back. Was looking forward to this Monday as they run in place of MNR, whoopee, if they run that is.

Anyway someone started an over/under thread on MNR cancellations this year. It looks like PEN is getting a hell of a head start on them. Anyone have an idea of what isn't working right there, maybe track drainage problems after the resurfacing??

lamboguy
12-17-2008, 10:18 PM
the greatest race track move i have ever seen in my life took place in the MSW race @ the mountain. in mountaineer when the track cancels they give the entrants whats called a Z-DATE. that means that their entries take precedent over any other horses that might want to enter that race even if they have a better date. 2 weeks ago they had a maiden $5k claiming event that got cancelled with the weather. they were granted a Z-DATE. all those trainers must have gotten together and entered their horse for a MSW with purse of $21,800 last night, as aposed to a maiden $5k with purse of $9k. because they had a full field, they locked out any legitamate msw competion and they ran for over twice as much money as they could ever have dreamt of in their entire life. that was the worst looking msw field i have ever seen in 35 years of watching horse racing.

proximity
12-18-2008, 01:17 AM
Starting to wonder if they will ever run again, PEN has lost 5 straight cards. They resurfaced the track a while back. Was looking forward to this Monday as they run in place of MNR, whoopee, if they run that is.

Anyway someone started an over/under thread on MNR cancellations this year. It looks like PEN is getting a hell of a head start on them. Anyone have an idea of what isn't working right there, maybe track drainage problems after the resurfacing??

nmy20s,

the weather at pen has been very erratic lately..... mixed precipitation and big day to day swings in temperature. with this combination, i'm not surprised they are struggling with the track.

btw, i had my first ever bad racino experience there tonight. live racing was cancelled as you said, but i was still playing simulcasts up in the clubhouse. however, after the 7th at ct a manager.....who i'd never seen before..... came up and informed everyone in the clubhouse that they'd be shutting down in about 10 minutes (wtf??)...... but that wagering would continue on the second floor in the "simulcast theater".........a deplorable creation.

after the 10th at ded, i had planned to patronize pen's restaurant, bar, and casino...... but instead i just left the "track" immediately.

proximity

Imriledup
12-18-2008, 03:45 AM
Is it my imagination or are there way more cancellations in today's game than we used to have in the 70s and 80s? I remember they used to race almost no matter what..........now, they are cancelling at the drop of a hat.

takeout
12-18-2008, 03:45 AM
btw, i had my first ever bad racino experience there tonight. live racing was cancelled as you said, but i was still playing simulcasts up in the clubhouse. however, after the 7th at ct a manager.....who i'd never seen before..... came up and informed everyone in the clubhouse that they'd be shutting down in about 10 minutes (wtf??)...... but that wagering would continue on the second floor in the "simulcast theater".........a deplorable creation.A friend told me they pull that same crap at CT. Shut down while the simulcast tracks are still running. They aren’t even open on some nights when Pen is running, and they are owned by Penn Gaming! Same old, same old. I think horseplayers may be starting to take the hint. :rolleyes:

I don't know a thing about it but that rebuild at Pen is starting to sound like the train wreck that was the CT "rebuild" in '04. (and the track still doesn't drain) They canceled 32 times that year NOT COUNTING the time off allotted for the rebuild!

takeout
12-18-2008, 04:30 AM
Is it my imagination or are there way more cancellations in today's game than we used to have in the 70s and 80s? I remember they used to race almost no matter what..........now, they are cancelling at the drop of a hat.I don’t think it’s your imagination, I remember it the same way. I remember a night at CT that I would’ve bet a paycheck that they were going to close. Snow was flying and the wind was whipping. It was really nasty. They ran all ten of ‘em. Fat chance that would happen today.

Nacumi
12-18-2008, 08:56 AM
When Penn closed for resurfacing, according to those who train and ride there, they put too much clay in the composition/mix. Then, after the surface initially appeared too tiring for many of the horses, they started scraping back the sand. Then, heavy rain caused problems and washout, and now the clay is not permitting the track to drain effectively, so the water that sits on it is freezing, too.
They didn't resurface for winter weather. They resurfaced for September.
I know a lot of folks here are not in favor of artificial surfaces, but if there were ever a place that needed one, it's Penn.

Tom Barrister
12-18-2008, 01:27 PM
This is a disturbing, if understandable, trend with tracks that have slots/casinos. The racing is treated as a necessary evil that's required to be allowed to operate the casino, and it's not given high priority. In my opinion, the management of the parent companies that run the entire operation probably doesn't give a rat's butt about the race track, horsemen, or horses, and they do just as much as is needed to allow them to keep the slots (and table games, if applicable) running.

Nacumi
12-18-2008, 01:30 PM
The rumor mill is now swirling with a story that Penn might shut down racing for two months. It's not like the weather's going to be any better, but I feel for the horsemen, especially those who can't afford to ship anywhere else.

lamboguy
12-18-2008, 01:38 PM
penn is running tonight, i got a horse in, i wish they would cancel so i could get a Z-DATE, and i haven't been able to train my horse for over a week, my horse has a big shot but might not win because she usually needs steady training before a race.

that is going to be one tough race card to handicap this evening because of the no training in the last week. it kind of even things off for the weaker horses to step up to the plate tonight. i am not going to do any betting on that place this evening.

Tom Barrister
12-18-2008, 01:41 PM
The rumor mill is now swirling with a story that Penn might shut down racing for two months. It's not like the weather's going to be any better, but I feel for the horsemen, especially those who can't afford to ship anywhere else.

How fast do you suppose a working all-weather surface would be installed and other facilities upgraded, if the casino-end of the operation had to shut down on days that the track wasn't able to race due to weather or other problems?

takeout
12-18-2008, 03:22 PM
In my opinion, the management of the parent companies that run the entire operation probably doesn't give a rat's butt about the race track, horsemen, or horses, and they do just as much as is needed to allow them to keep the slots (and table games, if applicable) running.So true. If anyone needs further proof all they have to do is look at what Charles Town is passing off as a tote board these days. Who else but a racino would have a card full of superfectas and then put up a board with no place on it to show superfecta payouts? That’s just the tip of the iceberg but I’ll stop there ‘cause it just gets worse. Much worse. Don’t know if all racinos are that lame but bear in mind that this is (was?) Penn Gaming’s flagship property.

Meanwhile, on the slot side, they give away some cars and the occasional house.

It’s been a couple of years and they now have a superfecta on EVERY race and still no place for them on the board. The only thing they care less about than racing are the people that bet on it. I figure the track surfaces are just slightly ahead of us.

takeout
12-18-2008, 03:52 PM
How fast do you suppose a working all-weather surface would be installed and other facilities upgraded, if the casino-end of the operation had to shut down on days that the track wasn't able to race due to weather or other problems?I probably couldn’t blink that fast. :) Problem is they don’t have to shut down. When Charles Town was going through its resurfacing debacle they were closed for months with no repercussions whatsoever to the slot side. It made me wonder just how long the slots could stay open without the racing. I still don’t know but it must be a l-o-n-g time. Once a state gets hooked on that slot dough I imagine anything is possible.

Nacumi
12-18-2008, 05:15 PM
How fast do you suppose a working all-weather surface would be installed and other facilities upgraded, if the casino-end of the operation had to shut down on days that the track wasn't able to race due to weather or other problems?

I'll wager they'd leave skid marks getting that surface put in! :lol:

mountainman
12-19-2008, 12:37 AM
the greatest race track move i have ever seen in my life took place in the MSW race @ the mountain. in mountaineer when the track cancels they give the entrants whats called a Z-DATE. that means that their entries take precedent over any other horses that might want to enter that race even if they have a better date. 2 weeks ago they had a maiden $5k claiming event that got cancelled with the weather. they were granted a Z-DATE. all those trainers must have gotten together and entered their horse for a MSW with purse of $21,800 last night, as aposed to a maiden $5k with purse of $9k. because they had a full field, they locked out any legitamate msw competion and they ran for over twice as much money as they could ever have dreamt of in their entire life. that was the worst looking msw field i have ever seen in 35 years of watching horse racing.

Sharp post. There would be two ways in the racing office for us to prevent such occurences, and neither myself ( I'm Mnr's ast racing sec) nor my boss find either feasible. One solution would be a preference clause, but those are rarely appended to maiden races and would be difficult to tool for non-winners. Also, at some tracks,'"z" dates apply only to races similar in class and conditions to the cancelled event. Horsemen would consider either measure unfair-especially during the cold months when it's hard to get horses in-and fight us tooth and nail.

ralph_the_cat
12-19-2008, 12:52 AM
I wouldnt like the idea behind the Z-date stik'n to the tag that was cancelled, because then you couldnt even bump up to $7.5k etc... but a preference system I wouldnt mind... A MSW event could have preference to horses that had not ran for a tag last out (MSW)... fair and suitable IMO...

proximity
12-19-2008, 12:57 AM
Sharp post.............. Horsemen would consider either measure unfair-especially during the cold months when it's hard to get horses in-and fight us tooth and nail.

not sure how "sharp" the post was since it was the first response in the thread and had absolutely nothing to do with what nmy20s was talking about....... penn national cancelling everyday. at least you get paid to handicap in advance... no matter if the card runs or not!!:)

and as for what slot supported horsemen consider fair or unfair:( :( :( :(

ralph_the_cat
12-19-2008, 01:02 AM
nmy20s,

however, after the 7th at ct a manager.....who i'd never seen before..... came up and informed everyone in the clubhouse that they'd be shutting down in about 10 minutes (wtf??)...... but that wagering would continue on the second floor in the "simulcast theater".........a deplorable creation.

proximity

:( :( :( :(


:D

proximity
12-19-2008, 01:08 AM
:( :( :( :(


:D

kinda harsh since it took over 10 months for me to make my first negative comment about the place............:)

proximity
12-19-2008, 01:59 AM
another thing about this is that on the night in question i overheard one horseman complaining about how some jockeys didn't feel the track was safe enough to run (and if they don't run, the horsemen can't get the $200 for running ninth) and i'd tell that horseman to :( :( :( me a river.... BUT AT LEAST THEY WERE THERE SUPPORTING THE GAME.

run down to the casino to get a drink and you'll see more "horsemen" playing slots than watching the simulcasts........ a sad commentary on the state of the game.

ralph_the_cat
12-19-2008, 02:16 AM
another thing about this is that on the night in question i overheard one horseman complaining about how some jockeys didn't feel the track was safe enough to run (and if they don't run, the horsemen can't get the $200 for running ninth) and i'd tell that horseman to :( :( :( me a river.... BUT AT LEAST THEY WERE THERE SUPPORTING THE GAME.

run down to the casino to get a drink and you'll see more "horsemen" playing slots than watching the simulcasts........ a sad commentary on the state of the game.

Something tells me you're not honest with the information you post on this forum.... Since when do they payback $200 for ninth?... and since when would the trainer even care unless he happens to own it too... and based on that Im suppose to believe the rest of the story you tell... like horsemen are playing slots more than handicapping... I dont mean to be harsh, I never remember reading anything else you posted, but Im not so sure your an honest poster and Im just calling it like I see it... Its a shame for all thats involved when they cancel... trainers, owners, and handicappers...

ralph_the_cat
12-19-2008, 02:19 AM
as far as penn being open when they cancel, isnt the paddock club always open during normal hours??????????

proximity
12-19-2008, 02:36 AM
as far as penn being open when they cancel, isnt the paddock club always open during normal hours??????????

the "paddock club" has been closed since the end of 2007. simulcast attendance (both horsemen and otherwise) has dropped like a rock on these nights when live racing cancels though. i wonder why? and the condition book seems to vacillate back and forth as to what places they pay down to. right now it may not pay all the way down, but it may start up again in january(?). the ()s represented that it was just a tongue in cheek statement meant to reflect horsemen greed. keep calling them like you see 'em though......

ralph_the_cat
12-19-2008, 02:56 AM
the "paddock club" has been closed since the end of 2007. simulcast attendance (both horsemen and otherwise) has dropped like a rock on these nights when live racing cancels though. i wonder why? and the condition book seems to vacillate back and forth as to what places they pay down to. right now it may not pay all the way down, but it may start up again in january(?). the ()s represented that it was just a tongue in cheek statement meant to reflect horsemen greed. keep calling them like you see 'em though......



Has there ever been a time where they paid back $200 to 9th place?...

So you didnt make that up? the trainer said that even though its not true?... I dont get it... :liar:

I havent been to Penn since 07, and Im sure attendance has dropped, I just question the rest of your post....

proximity
12-19-2008, 03:11 AM
Has there ever been a time where they paid back $200 to 9th place?...

So you didnt make that up? the trainer said that even though its not true?... I dont get it... :liar:
.

again, the parentheses () indicated that i added that part myself. and the statement was tongue in cheek, so the $ amount per place may not be dead on balls accurate.

i'm pretty sure there has been a time when they've paid the whole way down though. but since i don't save all the old copies of pen condition books, i can't be 100% sure. :rolleyes:

lamboguy
12-19-2008, 04:58 AM
some people like to read newspapers and fairy tales. i personally choose to read the mountaineer condition book every night before i go to bed. you see i have been reading condition books for years now, and they have become worse and worse and worse. in most places they show no semblence of what the overnight is going to look like by reading the book. i was betting on deleware park, they had 9 million extras every day, it seemed like none of the nine million turned into races. the racing office stayed open on occaision until 9 p.m. before the overnight came out. often they came out with only 7 races filled for the card, and they had 4+5 horses fields in them.
as a handicapper you have to appreciate the way the racing office at mountaineer works. they are very efficient, they open @ 8:30 a.m. for entries and the overnights are alwys up by noon. you can count on the races that you have waiting to bet on coming up in a timely fashion. they alternate distances in a very fair manor. when some one enters a horse in a condition that the horse doesn't belong in, its sticks out at you like a sore thumb, and often you can figure out why they entered the horse their.
nancy and mark are the face of mountaineer, and they are sheer professionals. they absolutely take pride in their work, the other night nancy couldn't talk because she was sick, she chose to struggle through her show and not call in sick. they add insight and i appreciate it for sure even when their picks are a little on the sour side. i don't follow picks, just listen to them and listen to their reasons for making the picks.

thank you nancy and mark for another great year at the home of the old waterford park, merry christmas and happy new year to you and your families.

supercap
12-19-2008, 09:52 AM
Pretty ingenius of these horsemen. Getting over on the racing secretary not an easy thing to do.

lamboguy
12-19-2008, 10:58 AM
not sure how "sharp" the post was since it was the first response in the thread and had absolutely nothing to do with what nmy20s was talking about....... penn national cancelling everyday. at least you get paid to handicap in advance... no matter if the card runs or not!!:)

and as for what slot supported horsemen consider fair or unfair:( :( :( :(

sorry for being so stupid prox, i will try to smarten up in the future. i promise not to take advantage of your posting thread.

showbet
12-19-2008, 02:15 PM
Penn is cancelled again tonight, as are at least eight other tracks so far today: Monticello, Beulah, Flamboro, Saratoga, Sports Creek, Georgian, Woodbine, Yonkers.

Tom Barrister
12-19-2008, 02:34 PM
The fact is that at properties with racing and a casino or slots, the racing end is an expense, as the casino has to subsidize the purses as well as other things. In other words, the operation would be more profitable from management's point of view, if racing didn't exist. There's no doubt in my mind that if the management at many of the tracks which have slots/casinos could get away with eliminating the racing end of things, racing would be gone. I'm sure that some are trying to do that, while others are trying to scale back the number of racing dates.

proximity
12-19-2008, 02:47 PM
sorry for being so stupid prox, i will try to smarten up in the future. i promise not to take advantage of your posting thread.

no lambo, i should actually apologize to you since by posting some of the stuff i did, i kinda did they same thing i was accusing you of. and i agree with your positive comments about mnr racing administration which is why i feel their horsemen should be grateful that they've promoted the game as well as they do. (in addition to slots)

however the original poster seems to be an actual younger player who feels cheated by mnr and when he looked to substitute pen..... they cancel 6 out of 7 days. the frustration is understandable.

anyhow if you ran at pen last night..... thank you for supporting the game. and hopefully you came back ok.....

lamboguy
12-19-2008, 04:32 PM
i ran third. not trying to make excuses, but not only did i not train into the race, they made my horse go directly from the paddock to the starting gate without warming up. my horse needs the warmup, and on top of that the horse was on the dead rail, if you notice all the races had outside post positions that won, i lost by a little more than a length.. its just another reason why they run the race to decide the winner, conditions are always different and i guess my horse was not best last night, like she has been second best all year. i could bang my head against the wall a thousand times and would never come up with a better plan for that horse.

mountainman
12-20-2008, 02:24 AM
Pretty ingenius of these horsemen. Getting over on the racing secretary not an easy thing to do.

Conspiracy or not, no rule was violated, thus we were required to use the race. We saw what was happening well before entries were drawn. Mnr's racing secretary, Joe "the cat" Narcavish, has almost a sixth sense concerning unusual activity at the entry box, and not a lot gets by me either.
However, spotting an adverse development and being empowered to stop it are two different things.

proximity
12-20-2008, 02:47 AM
[QUOTE=ralph_the_cat]Has there ever been a time where they paid back $200 to 9th place?...
QUOTE]

ralph,

fwiw, i checked the online condition book(s) and found nothing about this. all they had were the races. in the actual physical copy of the book however, on page four it gives the division of purses: 1st 60%, 2nd 20%, 3rd 11%, 4th 6 % and 5th 3 %. then underneath the jockey mount fees there is a double asterisk:

** ALL HORSES NOT FINISHING 1ST THROUGH 5TH IN ANY RACE WILL RECEIVE A $200 PAYMENT CREDITED TO THE OWNERS ACCOUNT.

i would assume this includes 9th place. :)

you are doing most of your pa racing at presque isle?

proximity

Tom Barrister
12-20-2008, 02:49 AM
Penn National pays five places. Moutaineer is the one that pays down the scale: they pay to eight places.

ralph_the_cat
12-20-2008, 03:16 AM
[QUOTE=ralph_the_cat]Has there ever been a time where they paid back $200 to 9th place?...
QUOTE]

ralph,

fwiw, i checked the online condition book(s) and found nothing about this. all they had were the races. in the actual physical copy of the book however, on page four it gives the division of purses: 1st 60%, 2nd 20%, 3rd 11%, 4th 6 % and 5th 3 %. then underneath the jockey mount fees there is a double asterisk:

** ALL HORSES NOT FINISHING 1ST THROUGH 5TH IN ANY RACE WILL RECEIVE A $200 PAYMENT CREDITED TO THE OWNERS ACCOUNT.

i would assume this includes 9th place. :)

you are doing most of your pa racing at presque isle?

proximity

The latest book I have of Penn is book 6, june 5th- june 26th... and it still reads $50 for horses not finishing 1st-5th... that said, I am well aware that PID NEXT YEAR will offer $200 for finishing the race and the jockeys fee will be changed to $100 as well... I assumed if Penn followed the same guidelines, they wouldnt be doing it until '09... but maybe they got approval to start it early... has the jockey fee bumped to $100 yet?

proximity
12-20-2008, 03:41 AM
[QUOTE=proximity]

The latest book I have of Penn is book 6, june 5th- june 26th... and it still reads $50 for horses not finishing 1st-5th... that said, I am well aware that PID NEXT YEAR will offer $200 for finishing the race and the jockeys fee will be changed to $100 as well... I assumed if Penn followed the same guidelines, they wouldnt be doing it until '09... but maybe they got approval to start it early... has the jockey fee bumped to $100 yet?


ralph,

i think the jockey fee is still $75? i believe the $200 went into effect sometime in august, then stopped, and then started again shortly after they reopened?? i'm just a gambler though and mr barrister seems pretty confident they're just paying to 5th..... so who knows??

are you aiming to make pid your main meet to race at??

proximity

DanG
12-20-2008, 09:07 AM
they made my horse go directly from the paddock to the starting gate without warming up. my horse needs the warmup
1ST; Thanks for sharing your insights in this thread Lambo; very interesting stuff. :ThmbUp:

2nd; Even for those of us who don’t factor in warm-ups, this is a legitimate reason (imo) not to race in cold regions / in the dead of winter. Can we imagine the Olympic 100 meters being held in Siberia while the participants walk around an igloo before they jog to the staring blocks?

BTW: In the interest of fairness; I’m also for not running at Calder in August when the animals need a bucket of water over their cranium after running to revive them.

ralph_the_cat
12-20-2008, 12:34 PM
I only have a couple horses racing, 2 right now, I have 2 careers... but Im looking forward to claiming something at PID when it opens... I always shoot for MNR, because for the most part it is easier, but if a horse fits up there, I dont hesitate... I ship to MNR anways, so shipping around isnt that big of deal... Theres really no reason for me to ship to Penn anymore, it got just as tough as MNR, if not tougher... only reason would be for PA bred races...



[QUOTE=ralph_the_cat]


ralph,

i think the jockey fee is still $75? i believe the $200 went into effect sometime in august, then stopped, and then started again shortly after they reopened?? i'm just a gambler though and mr barrister seems pretty confident they're just paying to 5th..... so who knows??

are you aiming to make pid your main meet to race at??

proximity

proximity
12-21-2008, 03:00 AM
Penn National pays five places. Moutaineer is the one that pays down the scale: they pay to eight places.

tom,

i checked with an owner and trainer about this today and they both said that pen is paying the $200 for 6th to 12th like the book says. so if you've had any recent below 5th place finishes, you may want to check on this....

proximity

ralph_the_cat
12-21-2008, 09:52 PM
1ST; Thanks for sharing your insights in this thread Lambo; very interesting stuff. :ThmbUp:

2nd; Even for those of us who don’t factor in warm-ups, this is a legitimate reason (imo) not to race in cold regions / in the dead of winter. Can we imagine the Olympic 100 meters being held in Siberia while the participants walk around an igloo before they jog to the staring blocks?

BTW: In the interest of fairness; I’m also for not running at Calder in August when the animals need a bucket of water over their cranium after running to revive them.

thats why they have blankets... these winter months I like to throw 3 layers of blankets on a horse and start walking them an hour before the race/30 minutes before they go over to the track:ThmbUp: ... makes a difference... then your up against guys that pull a horse right out of a stall and its in the starting gate 25 minutes later... :ThmbDown: stiff horses that are asked for run get injured...

jotb
12-22-2008, 06:24 AM
i ran third. not trying to make excuses, but not only did i not train into the race, they made my horse go directly from the paddock to the starting gate without warming up. my horse needs the warmup, and on top of that the horse was on the dead rail, if you notice all the races had outside post positions that won, i lost by a little more than a length.. its just another reason why they run the race to decide the winner, conditions are always different and i guess my horse was not best last night, like she has been second best all year. i could bang my head against the wall a thousand times and would never come up with a better plan for that horse.

Hello Lamboguy:

You are right about the dead rail that night. Your horse does have plenty of 2nd place finishes (7). Hopefully, you can break the 2L condition next out. Your horse is running under Tom Pointer and used to be Norman Pointer. A friend of mine was getting on most of Norman Pointer's horses at MTH a couple of months ago. I believe Norman is now down in Florida. Anyway, hopefully "Heart" wins next time out.

Happy Holidays
Joe

proximity
12-25-2008, 11:58 PM
local article about this:

http://www.pennlive.com/columns/patriotnews/horvath/index.ssf?/base/columnists/1230075607314960.xml&coll=1&thispage=1