PDA

View Full Version : Shine off the Pletcher apple


supercap
12-15-2008, 09:05 AM
Seems the well dressed Todd Pletcher even with his multimillion dollar stock cannot win without cheating. When he was suspended last time he appealed to the highest court he could ,delaying the inevitable. Now to have another embarrassing positive in the Breeders Cup of all places! I am sure Mr Pletcher will spend money on high priced lawyers and try and convince the racing world he was wronged! Come on Todd , pain killers in the Breeders Cup, what are you thinking? or not!

lamboguy
12-15-2008, 09:20 AM
with all his great horses, none of them have set the earth on fire in the breeding shed. i got a horse that is a brother to one of his champions running at the bottom these days and can't win either. it has been a painful lesson that i have had to learn about the horse business.

today when picking a stallion, you must pay closer attention as to who was the trainer, more than the horse's record.

my favorite stallion these days is MALIBU MOON. he was trained by mel stute, and he worked his younger horses every 5 days, and drilled them hard. MALIBU MOON only had a few races, so there was not that much lassix in him, and i don't think that mel was using steroids back in those days. so the moon is a legitamate stallion in my mind.

supercap
12-15-2008, 09:29 AM
Nice angle ! To your point , look what happened to the Mighty Cigar when he hit the breeding shed . Dud!! Bill Mott used so many drugs to keep him going the poor horse could not breed. Complete disgrace.

boomman
12-15-2008, 09:32 AM
Seems the well dressed Todd Pletcher even with his multimillion dollar stock cannot win without cheating. When he was suspended last time he appealed to the highest court he could ,delaying the inevitable. Now to have another embarrassing positive in the Breeders Cup of all places! I am sure Mr Pletcher will spend money on high priced lawyers and try and convince the racing world he was wronged! Come on Todd , pain killers in the Breeders Cup, what are you thinking? or not!

It seems to me that racing could police itself (long overdue) and take care of this problem in short order. There are 2 types of trainers today: The ones who NEVER get a positive drug test on their horses (which is the majority) and the ones like Dutrow, Vaders, Pletcher, Asmussen, etc who have MULTIPLE positives! It's actually very simple: Issue a lifetime ban to these multiple offenders (and by multiple, I mean the 2nd positive they receive) and CLEAN UP OUR GAME!:mad:

THIS CAN BE DONE!
Boomer

point given
12-15-2008, 09:53 AM
Nice angle ! To your point , look what happened to the Mighty Cigar when he hit the breeding shed . Dud!! Bill Mott used so many drugs to keep him going the poor horse could not breed. Complete disgrace.
Pardon my ignorance here, BUT, if there were one trainer to name who would NOT use drugs, it would be Bill Mott. I believe that the case of Cigar would be an isolated instance of an infertile horse. I beleive it does happen every now and then without the cause being drugs. I reallly can't recall a Mott positive, nor any mention of him on this subject . Educate me.

supercap
12-15-2008, 10:21 AM
Well Known fact in Kentucky horse circles that Cigars infertility was due directly to a saturation of steroids which in turn killed or weakened his sperm.

Nacumi
12-15-2008, 12:04 PM
How sad that a snake (pardon the pun) like Biancone gets tossed out of racing on two continents, and thrown out of KY, but can STILL get a license in CA. :confused:
Until every racing state mandates no meds at all on raceday (including Lasix, IMO, which masks a great deal) and institutes out of competition testing to catch those pushing the line on withdrawal times of substances like Bute, EPO and all of the 'caines, the cheaters will always find something to give them an advantage. I also believe one of the ways to disadvantage/discourage the cheats is to mandate full disclosure of every medication a horse is receiving in training and out, like the Hong Jockey Club does. Imagine those program lines next to the entry with Blinkers, Lasix, etc. They'd run out of ink. :eek:
Openness and transparency would eliminate a lot of the "super secret sauces" of the edge men/women. This business is so full of secrecy and sneakiness, no wonder it's considered nothing but shady. Even the WWE looks like the real thing compared to horse racing.

sonnyp
12-15-2008, 04:50 PM
many years ago, i trained for, or was close to some of the most successful and largest people in the harness game in the "golden years" at the meadowlands.

i loved to talk breeding theory to these people ,a part of the business i was never involved with, i was strickly racetrack. i was fascinated when one who had bred multiple champions told me his great success came from breeding unraced or lightly raced sisters of champions. never could figure why the sibling could produce while, often, the champion turned out to be miserable failures in breeding. possibly same bloodline....less drugs ?

sadly, many left the business because, unless you joined in the use, you could not compete.

many great people have left, and one trainer who was almost unbeatable, made a ton of money and returned to his homeland to lead the "simple life".

bye the way...his main owner left the harness game and is now remarkably successful in n.y. thoroughbred racing. imagine.

supercap
12-15-2008, 05:20 PM
I suggest some trainers are better at masking there deception than others!!!

westny
12-15-2008, 05:25 PM
Well Known fact in Kentucky horse circles that Cigars infertility was due directly to a saturation of steroids which in turn killed or weakened his sperm.

Your "well known fact" is nothing more than slander.

Using YOUR LOGIC :rolleyes: every infertile stallion was pumped full of steroids....Lure was sterile. He won the BC twice in consecutive years along with other stakes races.
So according to YOU, McGaughey and the Phipps stable "pumped Lure full of steroids that killed his sperm" that is why Lure was infertile :faint:

onefast99
12-15-2008, 05:36 PM
Your "well known fact" is nothing more than slander.

Using YOUR LOGIC :rolleyes: every infertile stallion was pumped full of steroids....Lure was sterile. He won the BC twice in consecutive years along with other stakes races.
So according to YOU, McGaughey and the Phipps stable "pumped Lure full of steroids that killed his sperm" that is why Lure was infertile :faint:
I dont think his statement mentioned any of the horses or trainers you did. I guess you forgot what the word assume really means. Bad response to a decent topic about Pletcher and a few others who got caught at cheating.

Shenanigans
12-15-2008, 05:41 PM
Your "well known fact" is nothing more than slander.

Using YOUR LOGIC :rolleyes: every infertile stallion was pumped full of steroids....Lure was sterile. He won the BC twice in consecutive years along with other stakes races.
So according to YOU, McGaughey and the Phipps stable "pumped Lure full of steroids that killed his sperm" that is why Lure was infertile :faint:

Steroids were very commonly used amongst trainers until here recently the attention they have gained and the now banning of them in most racing jurisdictions.
Since they were not a controlled substance on the track they were used very regularly by most trainers.
If anyone thinks that Mott or McGaughey never used steroids on their horses think again. Again, it was allowed and there were not too many trainers that weren't going to turn down that extra edge that their neighboring trainer was getting, so why not use them.
Cigar and Lure's infertility can easily be blamed on steroids.

Shenanigans
12-15-2008, 05:46 PM
with all his great horses, none of them have set the earth on fire in the breeding shed. i got a horse that is a brother to one of his champions running at the bottom these days and can't win either. it has been a painful lesson that i have had to learn about the horse business.

today when picking a stallion, you must pay closer attention as to who was the trainer, more than the horse's record.

my favorite stallion these days is MALIBU MOON. he was trained by mel stute, and he worked his younger horses every 5 days, and drilled them hard. MALIBU MOON only had a few races, so there was not that much lassix in him, and i don't think that mel was using steroids back in those days. so the moon is a legitamate stallion in my mind.

If this horse qualifies in your eyes as legitimate I would hate to see what kind of mares you would pick out.
He was drilled hard and didn't hold up long enough for only a few races.
"Not that much lasix in him". What is that supposed to mean? He didn't race enough to get enough lasix in him?
Do you really think Mel Stute isn't going to take advantage of using steroids, a drug that had no rules attached to it? Right.

Nacumi
12-15-2008, 06:12 PM
It doesn't surprise me that some stellar race mares haven't been able to reproduce themselves for the same reason: think of Genuine Risk and Winning Colors, for example. Not to impugn their trainers, but it does make you wonder, with all that "talent", what happened? Why could Genuine Risk only produce two live foals, neither of which raced?
Of course, the counter argument is that there are great race mares who have gone on to produce great runners, but it does give one pause. :confused:

lamboguy
12-15-2008, 06:21 PM
do you want me to say MALIBU MOON is a terrible stallion? mel says he never used steroids. he has been training alot longer than i have been on this earth. he claims that's the best horse he ever trained. B.WAYNE HUGHES seems to agree with him, he puts up millions of dollars every year buying progeny of that stallion.

westny
12-15-2008, 06:26 PM
Steroids were very commonly used amongst trainers until here recently the attention they have gained and the now banning of them in most racing jurisdictions.
Since they were not a controlled substance on the track they were used very regularly by most trainers.
If anyone thinks that Mott or McGaughey never used steroids on their horses think again. Again, it was allowed and there were not too many trainers that weren't going to turn down that extra edge that their neighboring trainer was getting, so why not use them.
Cigar and Lure's infertility can easily be blamed on steroids.

If steroids are a "direct causal affect of infertility in stallions" as YOU you claim, aand ALL trainers used steroids, then ALL stallions would be infertile....and that is just not true.

Infertilty in stallions is similiar to people...a few are...most are NOT.

lamboguy
12-15-2008, 06:36 PM
infertility is not the worst thing, at least you don't go threw the expense and time of a horse that is shooting blanks. my question has always been since horses have run on steroids, are they going to produce the same type of animal for offspring as he did as a runner? and did that horse only run good because of the steroids?

there are to many uncertainty's here, that is why i would perfer to see a no steroid policy everywhere.

Endsweep24
12-15-2008, 06:51 PM
Seems the well dressed Todd Pletcher even with his multimillion dollar stock cannot win without cheating. When he was suspended last time he appealed to the highest court he could ,delaying the inevitable. Now to have another embarrassing positive in the Breeders Cup of all places! I am sure Mr Pletcher will spend money on high priced lawyers and try and convince the racing world he was wronged! Come on Todd , pain killers in the Breeders Cup, what are you thinking? or not!


Either I am missing something here or you are not very well informed Pletcher's Positive from the BC was for Procaine Penicillen hardly a pain Killer.
HE has already admitted they she(Wait a WHile) recieved PPG 18 days prior to the BC.

Most Jurisdictions your vet has to just turn in a slip saying your horse was treated with PPG. I am not defending him he just made a poor choice of meds when any number of antibiotics would have done the trick.

SaratogaSteve
12-15-2008, 08:18 PM
Steroids were very commonly used amongst trainers until here recently the attention they have gained and the now banning of them in most racing jurisdictions.
**
Cigar and Lure's infertility can easily be blamed on steroids.

How can you make that connection? Infertility is based on a lot factors than pure drug use...

Pace Cap'n
12-15-2008, 08:48 PM
Either I am missing something here or you are not very well informed Pletcher's Positive from the BC was for Procaine Penicillen hardly a pain Killer.


That's not what the dictionary says...

Procaine: a basic ester C13H20N2O2 of para-aminobenzoic acid ; also : its crystalline hydrochloride used as a local anesthetic

supercap
12-15-2008, 09:18 PM
Here is a rule of thumb anything that ends with caine is more than likely a pain killer. Here we go again Pletcher blaming everyone but himself. I guess the next trick is the groom was rubbing Wait awhile 's nose and thats how she came up positive.
My guess is that the arguably greatest turf miler in racing history (Lure) and one of the best horses of all time in Cigar were just genetic defects, nothing to do with drugs used during there racing careers. They were just Dud Studs! Geniune Risk as well Winning Colors just could not cut it as broodmares not enough pedigree there I guess.
When you tell the truth about something you are not slandering anyone. Is there anyone out ther that believes for one second that Bill Mott does not use drugs on his horses.
The Rolling Stones Have a good line in one of there songs goes something like this" She was practiced at the art of deception" fitting for this industry maybe Mick was in the racing fan.

onefast99
12-15-2008, 09:50 PM
infertility is not the worst thing, at least you don't go threw the expense and time of a horse that is shooting blanks. my question has always been since horses have run on steroids, are they going to produce the same type of animal for offspring as he did as a runner? and did that horse only run good because of the steroids?

there are to many uncertainty's here, that is why i would perfer to see a no steroid policy everywhere.
Agree! No tolerance for the vet or the trainer, both get suspended and the horse in question gets the same punishment.

supercap
12-16-2008, 08:57 AM
I was around Lure during his running days. Fact of the matter he could barely walk out of his stall in the morning . He was so arthrtic Shug would have to walk him one hour just to get him going. What is the best treatment for arthritis ?steroids. Just a coincidence he was sterile.

Shenanigans
12-16-2008, 12:09 PM
[/B]

If steroids are a "direct causal affect of infertility in stallions" as YOU you claim, aand ALL trainers used steroids, then ALL stallions would be infertile....and that is just not true.

Infertilty in stallions is similiar to people...a few are...most are NOT.

Reread my post. "infertility can easily be blamed on steroids"............ a little different than what you claim I posted.:rolleyes: Here's an interesting read:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2003/July/19/Veterinary-Spotlight-Performance-or-fertility.aspx

supercap
12-16-2008, 12:33 PM
Great article , All should read, as this will offer some insight into what we are discussing!

onefast99
12-16-2008, 02:47 PM
Reread my post. "infertility can easily be blamed on steroids"............ a little different than what you claim I posted.:rolleyes: Here's an interesting read:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2003/July/19/Veterinary-Spotlight-Performance-or-fertility.aspx
Excellent article.

Endsweep24
12-16-2008, 04:03 PM
I was around Lure during his running days. Fact of the matter he could barely walk out of his stall in the morning . He was so arthrtic Shug would have to walk him one hour just to get him going. What is the best treatment for arthritis ?steroids. Just a coincidence he was sterile.

Dont Doubt you in the least bit But in 1994 Lure and the Rest of Shugs BC horses Were in the Same barn as we were at Churchill. I saw him stand in Ice every morning for an hour or so before he went to the track. He had another problem going into the BC Mile that year. I am not going to go into what it was but it did not surprise me when he ran poorly.

Endsweep24
12-16-2008, 04:15 PM
That's not what the dictionary says...

Procaine: a basic ester C13H20N2O2 of para-aminobenzoic acid ; also : its crystalline hydrochloride used as a local anesthetic

I know what Procaine is I am around it every day but PPG is not used as a Pain Killer they are administered totally different. PPG is but into the muscle neck or hip area depending on your vet. Thats Why PPG is an allowable drug in alot of states and in Canada. Not sure how all that allow PPG handle it but i do know that in some places you vet just has to turn in a slip saying your horse has been treated with PPG.

supercap
12-16-2008, 04:31 PM
Interesting that wait a while did her best running in Cali. Pletcher has a track record of using pain killers call it what you want he is a cheat. They dont take a quarter of a million dollars away for no reason!

Endsweep24
12-16-2008, 04:37 PM
You got to be kidding Me He has a track Record he's probably run 5,000 horses over the last 5 to 10 years and before this he had 1 Positive.

supercap
12-16-2008, 04:48 PM
There has been one other positive in the breeders cup I think Lashkari was dqd. Now TP has the second ,a dubious honor!. Maybe i mispoke on a track record , but his resume is building and with lesser success the lure to cheat is becoming greater!

Endsweep24
12-16-2008, 04:54 PM
I understand completely where you are coming from, what we are discussing here is one Big Reason that there needs to be a uniformed Medication policy throughout the US. depending on where the BC was run this would not have even been a positive.

PaceAdvantage
12-16-2008, 06:07 PM
Bill Mott was suspended for a lidocaine positive a while back....

supercap
12-17-2008, 12:10 AM
Shocking!