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lamboguy
12-15-2008, 08:30 AM
i have been running horses now for 30 years, and the 2 things i can tell you today is that training and vet bills have gone thru the roof and its alot tougher to win. i looked at my bills from new jersey, i paid trainers $75 a day and complained that that is to low for the job. vets charge $20 to administer lasix pre-race. they charge $260 for a months supply of clembuterol. $125 to tap a joint.
in pennsylvania and west virginia i am paying my trainers $50 a day for what i consider to be a better job than what i was getting in new jersey or new york.

pre-race lasix is $15, clem is $200, and i just tapped 2 joints in w.virginia for $50 each. i know that the tapping is a very low price. but there are big diferences. the purses are reletively the same if you are running at the lower levels in these 2 jurisdictions.

i wonder why average people like myself ever run in places like new york or new jersey. its not a game for us there. its for people that have lots of money that really don't care about it.

maybe that is part of the problem why race handles in new york are decreasing while mountaineer and penn national are on the increase.

eventually horse population in those tracks will decrease, you will see more 3+4 horse fields and the vets will be hustling to get the remaining business.

supercap
12-15-2008, 08:53 AM
The problem with the vets is they dont get paid for an office visit. If they are not shooting needles they dont make money. It is rare to have a vet come and look at your horse and say " everything looks good".

onefast99
12-15-2008, 08:57 AM
i have been running horses now for 30 years, and the 2 things i can tell you today is that training and vet bills have gone thru the roof and its alot tougher to win. i looked at my bills from new jersey, i paid trainers $75 a day and complained that that is to low for the job. vets charge $20 to administer lasix pre-race. they charge $260 for a months supply of clembuterol. $125 to tap a joint.
in pennsylvania and west virginia i am paying my trainers $50 a day for what i consider to be a better job than what i was getting in new jersey or new york.

pre-race lasix is $15, clem is $200, and i just tapped 2 joints in w.virginia for $50 each. i know that the tapping is a very low price. but there are big diferences. the purses are reletively the same if you are running at the lower levels in these 2 jurisdictions.

i wonder why average people like myself ever run in places like new york or new jersey. its not a game for us there. its for people that have lots of money that really don't care about it.

maybe that is part of the problem why race handles in new york are decreasing while mountaineer and penn national are on the increase.

eventually horse population in those tracks will decrease, you will see more 3+4 horse fields and the vets will be hustling to get the remaining business.
Try running in Woodbine, $100 per day training, to scope a horse is $100 medications up there are about 45% higher then in the USA. This was over this past summer when the dollar hoovered around 1.08 vs the canadian dollar. And the trainers and vets bitched when you adjusted for the exchange rate. But I hear you on the costs in NJ and NY, maybe a bunch of us can get together and do a co-op with a decent trainer.

Mineshaft
12-15-2008, 06:39 PM
i have been running horses now for 30 years, and the 2 things i can tell you today is that training and vet bills have gone thru the roof and its alot tougher to win. i looked at my bills from new jersey, i paid trainers $75 a day and complained that that is to low for the job. vets charge $20 to administer lasix pre-race. they charge $260 for a months supply of clembuterol. $125 to tap a joint.
in pennsylvania and west virginia i am paying my trainers $50 a day for what i consider to be a better job than what i was getting in new jersey or new york.

pre-race lasix is $15, clem is $200, and i just tapped 2 joints in w.virginia for $50 each. i know that the tapping is a very low price. but there are big diferences. the purses are reletively the same if you are running at the lower levels in these 2 jurisdictions.

i wonder why average people like myself ever run in places like new york or new jersey. its not a game for us there. its for people that have lots of money that really don't care about it.

maybe that is part of the problem why race handles in new york are decreasing while mountaineer and penn national are on the increase.

eventually horse population in those tracks will decrease, you will see more 3+4 horse fields and the vets will be hustling to get the remaining business.




Agree 100%. Cali and NY are for the people who have tons of money. For me and you and the average Joe we have to watch every penny. Im in this business to make money not let it go down the toilet.

ralph_the_cat
12-15-2008, 07:35 PM
no doubt... I often think that people that have horses in NY, CA, GP, and even KY need their head examined...

but the joints... you're only getting 50% HA with those $50 injections in WV, but I bet you're getting nearly 90% HA with those $125 injections... For me in WV/PA right now its $50-$60 for DEPO and $80-$90 for HA...

proximity
12-15-2008, 08:14 PM
i wonder why average people like myself ever run in places like new york or new jersey. .


you should just get david and stephanie to train all your horses!!:)

westny
12-15-2008, 10:42 PM
i have been running horses now for 30 years, and the 2 things i can tell you today is that training and vet bills have gone thru the roof and its alot tougher to win. i looked at my bills from new jersey, i paid trainers $75 a day and complained that that is to low for the job. vets charge $20 to administer lasix pre-race. they charge $260 for a months supply of clembuterol. $125 to tap a joint.
in pennsylvania and west virginia i am paying my trainers $50 a day for what i consider to be a better job than what i was getting in new jersey or new york.

pre-race lasix is $15, clem is $200, and i just tapped 2 joints in w.virginia for $50 each. i know that the tapping is a very low price. but there are big diferences. the purses are reletively the same if you are running at the lower levels in these 2 jurisdictions.

i wonder why average people like myself ever run in places like new york or new jersey. its not a game for us there. its for people that have lots of money that really don't care about it.

maybe that is part of the problem why race handles in new york are decreasing while mountaineer and penn national are on the increase.

eventually horse population in those tracks will decrease, you will see more 3+4 horse fields and the vets will be hustling to get the remaining business.



IN your posts in the Pletcher thread on the procaine bruhula, you brag how "Mizzen Mast never got steroids from his illustrious trainer" and you proselitize how "guys like Pletcher with his procaine nanogram overage is destroying the fertility of stallions with steroids". That is not a fact.

What is a FACT is that tapping the synovial ankle joints of race horses , LIKE YOU DO eventually DESTROYS THE cartiledge of the horse's joints.. Repeated taps, and the horse is a crippled arthritic. Can't walk. Can't graze.

You come across as a hypocrite. I'd rather steroids in my horse than crippling them as you do.

You a whiner too. You can't race horses in NY unless you have money. It costs 5OK a year to keep a horse with a NY trainer. Long gone is the era where small-fry owners like yourself can race in NY. As for the NYRA field size...you are clueless and you haven't watched a race in NY in eons...

To the contrary to what YOU would have posters think, NY consistently has 1-3 top dollar handles every day of all the tracks running. You should race your horses at Penn or MD where you'd have a chance...low cost and weak competition...

And the FACT that you cite Penn as taking business away from NYRA would be funny if it wasn't such a sad commentary on you. Penn...the track that is closing becasue the surface is so bad horses are dying.

ralph_the_cat
12-16-2008, 12:07 AM
IN your posts in the Pletcher thread on the procaine bruhula, you brag how "Mizzen Mast never got steroids from his illustrious trainer" and you proselitize how "guys like Pletcher with his procaine nanogram overage is destroying the fertility of stallions with steroids". That is not a fact.

What is a FACT is that tapping the synovial ankle joints of race horses , LIKE YOU DO eventually DESTROYS THE cartiledge of the horse's joints.. Repeated taps, and the horse is a crippled arthritic. Can't walk. Can't graze.

You come across as a hypocrite. I'd rather steroids in my horse than crippling them as you do.

You a whiner too. You can't race horses in NY unless you have money. It costs 5OK a year to keep a horse with a NY trainer. Long gone is the era where small-fry owners like yourself can race in NY. As for the NYRA field size...you are clueless and you haven't watched a race in NY in eons...

To the contrary to what YOU would have posters think, NY consistently has 1-3 top dollar handles every day of all the tracks running. You should race your horses at Penn or MD where you'd have a chance...low cost and weak competition...

And the FACT that you cite Penn as taking business away from NYRA would be funny if it wasn't such a sad commentary on you. Penn...the track that is closing becasue the surface is so bad horses are dying.

I dont know Lambo or westny, but I will say that stating that tapping the horses ankle the way "he does" will damage the joint is a FACT is a bit off. Yes, using D.E.P.O. isnt the best way to to do a horses ankle but DEPO has a 50% mix of HA which helps support joint function... and Lambo stating that the ankle injections from his other trainer that costs $125, I can gaurantee you those are nearly 90-99% HA injections, which again, supports the joint in an extremely positive way... straight corti/steroid is harmful, but Lambo never suggested exactly what type of injection they are, so assuming that an "injection" in general is harmful is extremely inaccurate... you are just flat out wrong about ankle injections damaging the joint, it depends on which kind... If horses ankles were injected more often with HA, they would be better off... HA basically thickens the synovial fluid in the joint giving the horse more lub in his joint... you could say by tapping an ankle you are letting watery fluid out and putting top-notch grease in... the only ankle injection that causes problems are the corti/steriod injections... which are being used less and less... and will eventually be banned...

lamboguy
12-16-2008, 12:21 AM
i thought it was called HCA, its supposedly the "good stuff". the last injection i have given this horse has lasted for 5 races already. i have injected his ankle. i plan on stopping with the horse the end of this month, and i am going to do another procedure called an I-wrap. it cost $1500 to do, and takes 6 weeks to do. during the 6 weeks we plan to swim the horse.

as far as the cheap price goes for the hca, my trainer has his lifelong friend a vet do the job. he pays the vet, and i repay him.

i am not using any other drug on this horse except for lassix. no winstrohl, amocar, banomine, or bute. his ankle does blowup somewhat after a race and the trainer has to work on him.

i have never done an I-wrap before, and have never heard of one before this vet suggested it. it involves a procedure where you draw the blood from a horse, send it to a lab, and then you go back and inject the ankle for 6 weeks with his own blood. the other way to go would be to blister him and give him time off. if he wins his next race i might try the I-wrap. so far no one has said anything bad about it.

ralph_the_cat
12-16-2008, 01:03 AM
i have never done an I-wrap before, and have never heard of one before this vet suggested it. it involves a procedure where you draw the blood from a horse, send it to a lab, and then you go back and inject the ankle for 6 weeks with his own blood. the other way to go would be to blister him and give him time off. if he wins his next race i might try the I-wrap. so far no one has said anything bad about it.

IRAP, its a Interleukin-1 receptor antagonist protein processing system that works pretty dam good... The first time I did IRAP was about 2 years ago... while the final testings were just finishing up on the procedure.... It was highly recommended from my vet and I took a chance with it since he was offering it at a discount... I had to inject this particular horses ankle every other start in one of his ankles before, he had a chip in his ankle that had been removed but the joint suffered from degen-joint-disease, and he would swell up if he didnt have a wrap on it or after a work/race... I had 10 starts in him and had the ankle injected with 95% HA maybe 4 times, which ended up costing nearly $400 or more just for a few months of racing, and I couldnt train him hard or even work him between races... I spent a grand on the IRAP in the end... they took his blood, did the entire freezing process and injected it in his joint the next day, the stuff is SUPER thick... I had it injected again 2 weeks later, after the 4th week they said go ahead and see how he starts to train... they saved one more injection in a freezer incase he needed it again, its been 2 years, I havent injected it with HA or an IRAP injection... it worked that well... but I did commit to giving him a simple Adequan ($55) injection in the main muscle every race or every other race depending on if he was to run on a synthetic surface or dirt.... he doesnt swell anymore, I can work him between races again, rather than just fast gallops... truely did the horse well, I highly recommened it... It rebuilds the joint through the protein processing system... he never swells up anymore... and hes even getting up there in age now, and doing better than he did as a 4 and 5 year old... I really havent had another horse like him that gave me problems, so hes the only one I have done it with... but when the time comes, I wont hesitate to do IRAP on another horse... :ThmbUp: do it! and start using adequan 12-18 hours out before the race... tight and cold ankles after every race, its been about 20 starts... magic :ThmbUp:

lamboguy
12-16-2008, 01:39 AM
i have to thank you very much for explaining it to me. my trainer said he had done it to one of his other horses and he ran untill he was 11. that horse just retired the other day after a win!
i had asked other guys about the procedure and they just never heard of it including my partner in florida.

after hearing about it from you i am going to take a shot at it. normally i wouldn't have, but this horse has always baffled me. the horse won a 3 life for 30 in churhill and beat horses that went on to win stake races and 2x's. and he went backwards. my trainer now claims he can bring him back close to what he was a few years ago with the procedure. i still have all my alowance conditions to go for, so i am doing it.

ralph_the_cat
12-16-2008, 01:52 AM
i have to thank you very much for explaining it to me. my trainer said he had done it to one of his other horses and he ran untill he was 11. that horse just retired the other day after a win!
i had asked other guys about the procedure and they just never heard of it including my partner in florida.

after hearing about it from you i am going to take a shot at it. normally i wouldn't have, but this horse has always baffled me. the horse won a 3 life for 30 in churhill and beat horses that went on to win stake races and 2x's. and he went backwards. my trainer now claims he can bring him back close to what he was a few years ago with the procedure. i still have all my alowance conditions to go for, so i am doing it.

Its amazing how many people dont know about this kind of stuff... I guess you get trainers and owners just doing the same old routine, not taking the time to understand what's out there... it makes me wonder what else they arent taking the time to learn about... let me know how it goes, with your pony, it may be that its not so much hes not as good as he once was, its just that with the bad wheels its hard to TRAIN them like they use to... good luck...

onefast99
12-16-2008, 08:30 AM
Its amazing how many people dont know about this kind of stuff... I guess you get trainers and owners just doing the same old routine, not taking the time to understand what's out there... it makes me wonder what else they arent taking the time to learn about... let me know how it goes, with your pony, it may be that its not so much hes not as good as he once was, its just that with the bad wheels its hard to TRAIN them like they use to... good luck...
The veterinarians have continuuing education courses available to them and many are just happy driving the needle truck from barn to barn. As owners we need to bring to the attention of other owners any new techniques that they have found were successful on their horses. Great post on this subject thanks!

supercap
12-16-2008, 08:43 AM
You made the remark about tapping joints and how this is what we do as opposed to the Todd Pletcher who has a nanogram positive. Are you under the illusion that Pletcher does not tap joints? Why do you think he gets caught with painkillers in his horses? The only difference between Todd Pletcher and some 25 a day trainer is their stock. Go to the track and watch horses train in the morning every horse does the same thing. Gallop two miles, two minute lick, work a half. They all use the same vets , Oh I guess one guy gets a special alfalfa that nobody else does. Everyone knows what the other guy is doing ! Its all about the stock!! Give me 100 million in horses I bet I could win a few.

supercap
12-16-2008, 09:11 AM
Let me get this straight , You pay 50k a year to keep a horse in NY?? I hope they put doughnuts out for you in the morning!

lamboguy
12-16-2008, 09:31 AM
if you ever go by pletcher's barn's you will see a brush hanging up next to the stall of a horse. he beleives in individual brushes for his horses.
i had spoken to him a few years ago and he asked me why i never sent him any horses, i told him i can't afford the $125 a day he charges his owners. he responded that he would do the job for me for $90. i looked at him in the eye, he said well you know my expenses are very high. so now i guess i understand why they are so high.
i don't care about his brushes or training methods.

i appreciate ralph the cat explaining me about IRAP's last night, it was quite and education. i learned more from him than i could possibly learn from pletcher.

i started this thread to bring out the diference in prices. westy got pretty testy! he don't think i am good enough to race horse's in the state of new york. he thinks because i am just a little guy that my opinion and my horses don't count. he also thinks the trainers and owners in new york are alot smarter than the people in west virginia or pennsylvania. . i wish westy the best of luck.

onefast99
12-16-2008, 09:59 AM
if you ever go by pletcher's barn's you will see a brush hanging up next to the stall of a horse. he beleives in individual brushes for his horses.
i had spoken to him a few years ago and he asked me why i never sent him any horses, i told him i can't afford the $125 a day he charges his owners. he responded that he would do the job for me for $90. i looked at him in the eye, he said well you know my expenses are very high. so now i guess i understand why they are so high.
i don't care about his brushes or training methods.

i appreciate ralph the cat explaining me about IRAP's last night, it was quite and education. i learned more from him than i could possibly learn from pletcher.

i started this thread to bring out the diference in prices. westy got pretty testy! he don't think i am good enough to race horse's in the state of new york. he thinks because i am just a little guy that my opinion and my horses don't count. he also thinks the trainers and owners in new york are alot smarter than the people in west virginia or pennsylvania. . i wish westy the best of luck.
As you know we had a nice group in NY last winter, I finally realized that the trainer I have at MP does a nice job down at Gulfstream park. So I sent him the best of my stock. The rest went to Philly park not because of the difference in training bills but because the purse monies are as good as or better then NY! As a small stable we need to cut costs, not sacrificing anything in purse monies made my decision an easy one. One of the remarks from westny had to do with the competition in NY vs the other tracks mentioned, in the races we run in, starters or claimers the competition is tough all over. I saw a claiming race at Philly last week where the NY shipper was bet down to even money and finished dead last, maybe the competition was too tough for that horse at Philly!:eek:

ralph_the_cat
12-16-2008, 02:06 PM
The veterinarians have continuuing education courses available to them and many are just happy driving the needle truck from barn to barn. As owners we need to bring to the attention of other owners any new techniques that they have found were successful on their horses. Great post on this subject thanks!

Well, if you think about it, most track-vets really dont have the time to learn about other stuff... and owners dont work close enough with their vets to even learn anything... I have my track vet, that I dont trust to tell me anything but how much lasix I should use... and then I have a one-of-a-kind vet that use to work at a race track but became a surgeon, (99% of track vets are not licensed surgeons) he opened up a practice maybe 30 years ago about 1 hour from the closest race track... He works on all kinds of horses, Standardbreds, TB, Quarter horses, rodeo horses etc... he gives me the "honest" approach to whats best... he often invites me to shindigs where Im the only TB guy there, but I learn a lot... hes been instrumental in teaching me about whats best for the horse, like everytime Ive seen him he complained my horses werent shoed properly, after 3 shoers I found a guy that listens to what advice I tell him, instead of a know-it-all shoers, the smallest things make a difference when racing... the off-track vet wants success as much as I do... with track vets, whether they make a mistake or not they'll always have business, but vets that work on off track locations have to be successful with your horse or else theres a good chance you'll go else where... They have millions more invested in their business as well...

ralph_the_cat
12-16-2008, 02:30 PM
i appreciate ralph the cat explaining me about IRAP's last night, it was quite and education. i learned more from him than i could possibly learn from pletcher.


wow, thanks... and I didnt even explain the whole process of how the blood is put in a syringe with glass beads to create autologous serum caused from white blood cells that bind to the glass beads. The cells are activated to produce regenerative proteins that will help rebuild the degen-bone loss and cause a positive change in synovial fluid(thickens). When you go back to get your final injection of IRAP-(Blood) whether its only the 2nd or 3rd injection, when they stick the needle in there, its amazing to see the thickness of the fluid that comes out of the needle before they stick the syringe onto the needle, normally a thin watery fluid will come out prior to IRAP treatment, now after the IRAP treatment, it will be a thick red substance... and that thick substance is what you want to see... The whole idea is to balance the Interleukin-1 receptor antagonist to create healthy growth rather than a watery fluid that causes a deterioration of bone. Good stuff, I just havent checked the $$ thats involved, I got it at a discount and it was a grand... you say it may be $1,500 but theres probably other $$ involved as well, which sucks... but long term, like I said before, you can train him more on the track, race him more throughout the year, and not have to inject it with HA... longterm success, but often times you claim horses, and you dont want to have that done and then have him claimed off you, so its a method that best done in the winter months on a decent horse... Im no pletcher, I run claimers, Im happy I used it on one claimer, but with the cost, its going to take a nice pony to do it again...

ralph_the_cat
12-16-2008, 02:32 PM
The only difference between Todd Pletcher and some 25 a day trainer is their stock. Go to the track and watch horses train in the morning every horse does the same thing. Gallop two miles, two minute lick, work a half. They all use the same vets , Oh I guess one guy gets a special alfalfa that nobody else does. Everyone knows what the other guy is doing ! Its all about the stock!! Give me 100 million in horses I bet I could win a few.

Amen brother...:) but I do stay away from 2 minute licks... :p

onefast99
12-16-2008, 02:38 PM
Well, if you think about it, most track-vets really dont have the time to learn about other stuff... and owners dont work close enough with their vets to even learn anything... I have my track vet, that I dont trust to tell me anything but how much lasix I should use... and then I have a one-of-a-kind vet that use to work at a race track but became a surgeon, (99% of track vets are not licensed surgeons) he opened up a practice maybe 30 years ago about 1 hour from the closest race track... He works on all kinds of horses, Standardbreds, TB, Quarter horses, rodeo horses etc... he gives me the "honest" approach to whats best... he often invites me to shindigs where Im the only TB guy there, but I learn a lot... hes been instrumental in teaching me about whats best for the horse, like everytime Ive seen him he complained my horses werent shoed properly, after 3 shoers I found a guy that listens to what advice I tell him, instead of a know-it-all shoers, the smallest things make a difference when racing... the off-track vet wants success as much as I do... with track vets, whether they make a mistake or not they'll always have business, but vets that work on off track locations have to be successful with your horse or else theres a good chance you'll go else where... They have millions more invested in their business as well...
My first four years in this game I didnt have any hands on or much say...I trusted the trainer and the vet group who had my horses. Once I turned it into a real business I am and continue to be very hands on. This is a tough game to win at and when certain trainers and vets take advantage of you it makes it even more difficult to succeed.

ralph_the_cat
12-16-2008, 02:45 PM
My first four years in this game I didnt have any hands on or much say...I trusted the trainer and the vet group who had my horses. Once I turned it into a real business I am and continue to be very hands on. This is a tough game to win at and when certain trainers and vets take advantage of you it makes it even more difficult to succeed.

Thats why those hefty win percentage guys need to be looked at closely... I know a few guys that have some nice 20%+ win percentage, but they only win like that with their own stock or for one owner, meanwhile they are 2 for 36 with other owners during a meet... but they are 5 for 10 with their stock and maybe 6 for 30 with one particular owner... and YOU wonder where your money is going...

rrbauer
12-16-2008, 02:49 PM
Try running in Woodbine, $100 per day training, to scope a horse is $100 medications up there are about 45% higher then in the USA. This was over this past summer when the dollar hoovered around 1.08 vs the canadian dollar. And the trainers and vets bitched when you adjusted for the exchange rate. But I hear you on the costs in NJ and NY, maybe a bunch of us can get together and do a co-op with a decent trainer.

Whoa! Is this why there's so many people in the U.S. buying their drugs from Canada?

supercap
12-16-2008, 02:51 PM
Blind trust in this game is like russian roulette! Trainers think everyone in this game is printing money and that is an excuse to take advantage of . The problem is once you start voicing your opinion they take it as insult. Crazy game!

CryingForTheHorses
12-16-2008, 03:11 PM
i have been running horses now for 30 years, and the 2 things i can tell you today is that training and vet bills have gone thru the roof and its alot tougher to win. i looked at my bills from new jersey, i paid trainers $75 a day and complained that that is to low for the job. vets charge $20 to administer lasix pre-race. they charge $260 for a months supply of clembuterol. $125 to tap a joint.
in pennsylvania and west virginia i am paying my trainers $50 a day for what i consider to be a better job than what i was getting in new jersey or new york.

pre-race lasix is $15, clem is $200, and i just tapped 2 joints in w.virginia for $50 each. i know that the tapping is a very low price. but there are big diferences. the purses are reletively the same if you are running at the lower levels in these 2 jurisdictions.

i wonder why average people like myself ever run in places like new york or new jersey. its not a game for us there. its for people that have lots of money that really don't care about it.

maybe that is part of the problem why race handles in new york are decreasing while mountaineer and penn national are on the increase.

eventually horse population in those tracks will decrease, you will see more 3+4 horse fields and the vets will be hustling to get the remaining business.


The only reason a trainer charges 75 bucks a day is so he doesnt have to do the work himself,MANY of these trainers never even touch a leg and you as the owner get charged that day rate,Just the other day I watched as a "Big Name" trainer caame out of his tackroom talking to the owner on the phone and telling him his horse went fine,...He was sleeping on his couch...I have observed many of these "big name" trainers tell lies,never show up and most NEVER touch a horses leg,That also why you have such large vet bills because the vets train the horses.When something is wrong with the horse,you never see the trainer looking...He sends the vet....

onefast99
12-16-2008, 03:15 PM
Whoa! Is this why there's so many people in the U.S. buying their drugs from Canada?
When the dollar was even vs the canadian dollar for a part of last summer I would say no one would be buying their drugs in canada but as we have seen the US dollar is worth about 1.22 today vs the canadian dollar. When it is even then the costs are high vs the US vet bills I get. When it is 20% higher then the canadian dollar you take that right off the bill if you pay with us funds. Some of the canadian outfits dont like the fact people adjust their bills according to the exchange rate, they try to do it for you and give about 1/3rd or 1/2 of the present exchange rate.

onefast99
12-16-2008, 03:28 PM
The only reason a trainer charges 75 bucks a day is so he doesnt have to do the work himself,MANY of these trainers never even touch a leg and you as the owner get charged that day rate,Just the other day I watched as a "Big Name" trainer caame out of his tackroom talking to the owner on the phone and telling him his horse went fine,...He was sleeping on his couch...I have observed many of these "big name" trainers tell lies,never show up and most NEVER touch a horses leg,That also why you have such large vet bills because the vets train the horses.When something is wrong with the horse,you never see the trainer looking...He sends the vet....
I have had a bunch of those calls! A former trainer of mine was supposed to be claiming a horse for me at GP he called me to tell me he dropped the slip around 12 minutes to post and the horse looked "really good". I asked him if he was a good size horse, etc etc. As he fiddled around with his phone I heard an announcement in the background that anyone parked in front of the terminal will be ticketed or towed, I asked him where he was and he told me again at the track claiming a horse for me. Short version of the story he didnt drop the slip someone else did and he never looked at the horse, he was picking up another owner at the Ft Lauderdale airport!

matthewsiv
12-16-2008, 05:55 PM
I believe that it is between $70 to a $90 a day in New York.

But the prize money is that much better ,if you can win.

I used to race in Florida,moved up to Aqueduct in May and onto New Jersey,Philadelphia Park at the moment.

It is easy to make cracks at owners,but the old saying in racing is as follows

YOU TREAT OWNERS LIKE MUSHROOMS
FEED THEM SHIT
AND KEEP THEM IN THE DARK

This is a corrupt industry from the foal until the death of the horse.

The owners are the only ones not making any money.

Lamboguy deserves some respect

CryingForTheHorses
12-16-2008, 06:57 PM
[QUOTE=matthewsiv]I believe that it is between $70 to a $90 a day in New York.

But the prize money is that much better ,if you can win.

I used to race in Florida,moved up to Aqueduct in May and onto New Jersey,Philadelphia Park at the moment.

It is easy to make cracks at owners,but the old saying in racing is as follows

YOU TREAT OWNERS LIKE MUSHROOMS
FEED THEM SHIT
AND KEEP THEM IN THE DARK

This is a corrupt industry from the foal until the death of the horse.



This is what is killing this business,Trainers who have huge stables leading owners down the garden path.help is trained what to say or not to say,Bad help adminstering drugs and trainers lying thu their teeth.I had a agent come to my barn the other day and was surprised he found me in the shed instead of talking to me in front of the horse I was doing up.Hands on trainers will give you a better bang for your buck and lesser bills.LOTS of trainers are not even at the barn when the vet gives the required shots that are slated for that horse. In my opinion Im sure a lot of horses dont get the shots and the owners are still billed for it. Owners who do have their horses with a big stable need to be aware!!...Sure the trainer may win races but he is in the numbers game .

onefast99
12-16-2008, 07:22 PM
I believe that it is between $70 to a $90 a day in New York.

But the prize money is that much better ,if you can win.

I used to race in Florida,moved up to Aqueduct in May and onto New Jersey,Philadelphia Park at the moment.

It is easy to make cracks at owners,but the old saying in racing is as follows

YOU TREAT OWNERS LIKE MUSHROOMS
FEED THEM SHIT
AND KEEP THEM IN THE DARK

This is a corrupt industry from the foal until the death of the horse.

The owners are the only ones not making any money.

Lamboguy deserves some respect
I would say both of my new trainers are very good people. But the one I had years back lied so much he face must of hurt:liar: . I want to write a book on the 100 reasons why certain horses I had with him couldnt win.:mad:

onefast99
12-16-2008, 07:26 PM
I believe that it is between $70 to a $90 a day in New York.

But the prize money is that much better ,if you can win.

I used to race in Florida,moved up to Aqueduct in May and onto New Jersey,Philadelphia Park at the moment.

It is easy to make cracks at owners,but the old saying in racing is as follows

YOU TREAT OWNERS LIKE MUSHROOMS
FEED THEM SHIT
AND KEEP THEM IN THE DARK

This is a corrupt industry from the foal until the death of the horse.

The owners are the only ones not making any money.

Lamboguy deserves some respect
Try $75 to $125 and then the vitamins are $3 a day and the extras all add up. You need to make sure that the trainer is even near your horse he may be at Gulfstream or Palm Meadows and has an assistant taking care of your horses. As far as the purse monies go Philly has some very good ones thats why everyone is trying to get stall space there.

Endsweep24
12-16-2008, 07:35 PM
This is what is killing this business,Trainers who have huge stables leading owners down the garden path.help is trained what to say or not to say,Bad help adminstering drugs and trainers lying thu their teeth.I had a agent come to my barn the other day and was surprised he found me in the shed instead of talking to me in front of the horse I was doing up.Hands on trainers will give you a better bang for your buck and lesser bills.LOTS of trainers are not even at the barn when the vet gives the required shots that are slated for that horse. In my opinion Im sure a lot of horses dont get the shots and the owners are still billed for it. Owners who do have their horses with a big stable need to be aware!!...Sure the trainer may win races but he is in the numbers game .


Your point is well takin BUT don't but all of us involved with large stables all in one basket. I am in Ocala Fl and deal with 100 or more horses everyday. There is not a shot given, an xray taken or anything else done to a horse without me being there. I have 60 in training right now and I see every leg.
I have a very good relationship with all or owners and My phone is always on.
Our operation has been very successful over the years. ANd Hopefully in the future it will stay that way

westny
12-16-2008, 11:30 PM
Let me get this straight , You pay 50k a year to keep a horse in NY?? I hope they put doughnuts out for you in the morning!

I quoted John Perotta, a trainer and syndicate principal. He was on At The Races and 50K is the figure he said costs to stable a horse in NY...all inclusive but excluding any serious injury or illness.

supercap
12-17-2008, 12:06 AM
That is a total ripoff, That is people taking advantage of clueless owners!

ralph_the_cat
12-17-2008, 02:09 AM
In WV/PA $4 for Alfalfa at 7 per month, $3 for timothy at 7 per month, $4 for straw at about 12 a month... and $6 sacks of feed for $14 a month....
that $28 for alfalfa, $21 for timothy, $48 for straw, $84 for feed =$181 throw on $20 for a month of electrolytes and another $100 for any extras like red cell, vit-e, or maybe just cortaflex... your talkn maybe $300 in your normal eat, poop and feel good fees...
throw...
$10 for a morning gallop, at any where from 4-15 times a month... depending on whether its a cheap sore claimer or a young horse that needs to get out a bunch... so you're lookn at about $350-$450 a month it costs us... thats roughly $12-$15 a day.... in actual normal costs, everything else depends on how much work your trainer does... throw in $200 in vet bills a month for $20 Lasix, one shot of $55 adequan the night before a race, and then a hundred in cleunbuterol and maybe a shot or two of some other stuff... a shoe bill for $80, Im sitting on about $600 a month because I do all my own work... so if they run for 7 months out of the year, they only have to make $4,200 to break even, anything extra goes towards their cheap layoff cost and then of course in my pocket... I have to laugh and then almost cry when I see owners in the same race paying $50 a day with $400 vet bills and $100 shoeing bills, and then they have to give up 10-20% if they run ITM... lol, I dont know how some of you guys do it... thats what?... $2,000 a month! in a sport were it should only cost $600 a month if you do the work yourself...you pay $1,400 extra to have some guy do it for you... I feel bad for you guys... I really do... I always said anything more than charging an owner $1,500 doesnt make any sense, I think a $1,000 in day rates and another $500 to cover vet bills, shoeing and any short transportation fees are legit... anything over that, and your money would be better off somewhere else, i dont care what the trainers excuse is, like, we have lots of workers, etc etc.... If thats the case, that doesnt mean its OK> go else where... If an owner paid me $50 a day not including the vet, shoe etc, I could pay for his horse to run($600), and also pay my ($900) mortgage... if I did all the work myself, on one stink horse! which is practical... that just doesnt seem right... does it?...

Its pretty funny actually, there was a local owner that had some success with one trainer for maybe 10 years or so, he knew everything about racing, but had no horsemenship skills... him and his trainer finally had it out, and they split... so the owner hired a no name trainer with no horses but maybe a 50-1 shot running for $4k over at TDN... he put the horses he had in this poor trainers name and had him saddle them in the paddock, he hired the 2 grooms he had working for the other trainer to work for him since they knew everything about the other trainer and were actually the ones that DID the work... the grooms were key because they learned so much off the owners original trainer, he ran his entire operation just reading the condition books and making good claims etc... the grooms knew how to train the horses, and the trainer just got the vet when his horses were sore, the new trainer had no decision making power, it was all the owner, they were winning at 15% with about 10 head of horses... individually, everyone on this guys "team" had little talent in the business, but put them all together and they all had one job they were good at and got the job down, rumor had it the owner was just giving the "trainer" a place to live and food to eat... the owner has since moved to another track and rumor has it he finally took a trainers test... now Im not saying some of you owners should do that at all... 99 out of a hundred times the idea would fail, you pay your trainers because they are good at what they do, I just always thought it was an interesting situation that worked out for the owner, He was a GREAT owner that new the racing business more than most trainers, he could be successful with your average 10% trainer... he just couldnt stand his trainer and his bs... he saw all his trainer was doing was sip'n coffee standing at the rail knowing his experienced grooms had the work all taken care of back at the barn, the owner saw that, and said shit, I could do this... but let me tell you, the 2 year old training thing is an entirely different story, this guy just worked with claimers...

supercap
12-17-2008, 08:05 AM
I am sure you have endeared yourself to trainers out there. I totally agree with your assesment. The typical" I break even at 75$ , I am making no money" hopefully won't cut it anymore.. Thanks for the breakdown

onefast99
12-17-2008, 10:36 AM
I quoted John Perotta, a trainer and syndicate principal. He was on At The Races and 50K is the figure he said costs to stable a horse in NY...all inclusive but excluding any serious injury or illness.
You throw out a figure for the yearly cost yet your breakdown is as weak as the economy right now. What does the 50k include. Lets break it down on an allowance horse I had last year with the inner track training champion. $85 a day basic training, $135 per month medical/supplements, $150 blacksmith and shoes,$100 dentist, $30 gastro guard $25 race day expense x2. Lets add this up....$3015 per month x 12=$36,180.00 Now you mentioned 50k that may have included shipping the horse cross country to a major stakes race or any of 100 other things that were done to the horse. I would guess the trainer got around $125 a day so now add another 14k to the bill and you get 50k a year. Again my figures are based on the leading inner track trainer last year at Aqueduct. Another factor that many owners face is the inability for lower level claimers to be profitable in NY, and thus these horses get sent to tracks like Penn and Mountaineer due to the major cost difference in trainers. As mentioned earlier in this thread some trainers may train for as low as $30 a day at these tracks.

CryingForTheHorses
12-17-2008, 11:37 AM
Your point is well takin BUT don't but all of us involved with large stables all in one basket. I am in Ocala Fl and deal with 100 or more horses everyday. There is not a shot given, an xray taken or anything else done to a horse without me being there. I have 60 in training right now and I see every leg.
I have a very good relationship with all or owners and My phone is always on.
Our operation has been very successful over the years. ANd Hopefully in the future it will stay that way

Thankyou sir,You are a exception to the rule,Im sure your very tired when the day is done,My hat is off to you,Would love to meet you..You sound like me...Old School

ralph_the_cat
12-17-2008, 03:14 PM
You throw out a figure for the yearly cost yet your breakdown is as weak as the economy right now. What does the 50k include. Lets break it down on an allowance horse I had last year with the inner track training champion. $85 a day basic training, $135 per month medical/supplements, $150 blacksmith and shoes,$100 dentist, $30 gastro guard $25 race day expense x2. Lets add this up....$3015 per month x 12=$36,180.00 Now you mentioned 50k that may have included shipping the horse cross country to a major stakes race or any of 100 other things that were done to the horse. I would guess the trainer got around $125 a day so now add another 14k to the bill and you get 50k a year. Again my figures are based on the leading inner track trainer last year at Aqueduct. Another factor that many owners face is the inability for lower level claimers to be profitable in NY, and thus these horses get sent to tracks like Penn and Mountaineer due to the major cost difference in trainers. As mentioned earlier in this thread some trainers may train for as low as $30 a day at these tracks.

now I know where Im screwn'n up!... I dont spend $100 a month in dentist work!... Never knew a horse to need that much dentist work... I spend a $100 once a year, and might have him looked at twice a year... I had one particular horse for 3 years, made $70k running cheap claimers, and never had his teeth done once, he didnt need it, some vets just run a file across their teeth for 30 seconds and charge $100 and the horse didnt even need it... dont take my post the wrong way, Im just saying... unless you know the horse and trust your trainer a bunch, not to mention the vet... that $100 kinda sounds totally uncalled for... $1,200 a year in Dentists work, Ill add that to the "Holy crap you're getting screwed list"... of course a 2yo might need tak'n care of 3 or 4 times throught out his 2yo season, but older horses dont need that much IMO...

westny
12-17-2008, 03:35 PM
You throw out a figure for the yearly cost yet your breakdown is as weak as the economy right now. What does the 50k include. .

I quoted 50k as THE FIGURE STATED BY AN INDUSTRY PROFESSIONAL owner, trainer,breeder, syndicate manager when asked the question by a listener "how much to stable a horse in NY. Can YOU READ?

He did not breakdown the costs but stated.,50k... day rate, farrier, teeth, vets, entry fees, transportation, workout charges, pony to the track, etc. everything EXCEPT..costs for disease or serious injury.

I can't debate your figures, only QUOTE a recognized trainer,owner,breeder. syndicate manager. :sleeping:

lamboguy
12-17-2008, 04:28 PM
i am going to take westy's advice. you see i am not as classy a guy as him. so i realise that my kind don't belong in new york, and i have no right to complain how much the trainers and vets charge, because i should't be there to begin with. only guys that pay trainers $50,000 a year should be allowed there. it hurts the image of the sport when regular people like myself don't pay that much. you can see by the attendance in new york that they don't need any more people in the place!

thanks westy for hipping me up to my problem in life paying for these trainers and vets.

john del riccio
12-17-2008, 07:03 PM
i have been running horses now for 30 years, and the 2 things i can tell you today is that training and vet bills have gone thru the roof and its alot tougher to win. i looked at my bills from new jersey, i paid trainers $75 a day and complained that that is to low for the job. vets charge $20 to administer lasix pre-race. they charge $260 for a months supply of clembuterol. $125 to tap a joint.
in pennsylvania and west virginia i am paying my trainers $50 a day for what i consider to be a better job than what i was getting in new jersey or new york.

pre-race lasix is $15, clem is $200, and i just tapped 2 joints in w.virginia for $50 each. i know that the tapping is a very low price. but there are big diferences. the purses are reletively the same if you are running at the lower levels in these 2 jurisdictions.

i wonder why average people like myself ever run in places like new york or new jersey. its not a game for us there. its for people that have lots of money that really don't care about it.

maybe that is part of the problem why race handles in new york are decreasing while mountaineer and penn national are on the increase.

eventually horse population in those tracks will decrease, you will see more 3+4 horse fields and the vets will be hustling to get the remaining business.

thats why the game is doomed.

john

john del riccio
12-17-2008, 07:07 PM
I would say both of my new trainers are very good people. But the one I had years back lied so much he face must of hurt:liar: . I want to write a book on the 100 reasons why certain horses I had with him couldnt win.:mad:

Why do you think they called him pinnochio Brian ?

John

lamboguy
12-17-2008, 07:44 PM
there is only one guy that i knew that had the pinnochio ncikname. are they the initials GC?

Achilles
12-17-2008, 08:39 PM
Congrats to onefast99, ralph the cat and lamboguy for what is the most informative thread I may have ever read here. It should be compulsory reading for anyone who ever wants to get involved in this game as an owner or partnership member.

Thank you again gentlemen:jump:...........Jack

ralph_the_cat
12-18-2008, 01:24 AM
interesting topic to talk about on these forums... :ThmbUp: trainers dont like to usually talk about where all your money goes... they just know they need it... :liar:

ralph_the_cat
12-18-2008, 01:39 AM
i am going to take westy's advice. you see i am not as classy a guy as him. so i realise that my kind don't belong in new york, and i have no right to complain how much the trainers and vets charge, because i should't be there to begin with. only guys that pay trainers $50,000 a year should be allowed there. it hurts the image of the sport when regular people like myself don't pay that much. you can see by the attendance in new york that they don't need any more people in the place!

thanks westy for hipping me up to my problem in life paying for these trainers and vets.

the best part is, the wealthy, wealthy owners think the higher they pay, the better chance they have at success... lol... purchase a $250,000 yearling then they dish out $50,000 to a trainer for one year to train it... lol... I still dont get it, and I grew up in the business.... then one of the 30 horses the trainer has turns into a graded stakes horse, suddenly his day rate goes from $100 to $125...

onefast99
12-18-2008, 08:01 AM
now I know where Im screwn'n up!... I dont spend $100 a month in dentist work!... Never knew a horse to need that much dentist work... I spend a $100 once a year, and might have him looked at twice a year... I had one particular horse for 3 years, made $70k running cheap claimers, and never had his teeth done once, he didnt need it, some vets just run a file across their teeth for 30 seconds and charge $100 and the horse didnt even need it... dont take my post the wrong way, Im just saying... unless you know the horse and trust your trainer a bunch, not to mention the vet... that $100 kinda sounds totally uncalled for... $1,200 a year in Dentists work, Ill add that to the "Holy crap you're getting screwed list"... of course a 2yo might need tak'n care of 3 or 4 times throught out his 2yo season, but older horses dont need that much IMO...
I dont think any person let alone a horse spends $100 a month on a dentist, this was the number on the bill and the response I received from the trainer was as follows, "everytime we race your horses need their teeth filed and in some cases a tooth pulled, if you need a better explantation I will have the dentist call you". My reply was dont worry about him calling me, Im moving the horses to someone who is honest.

onefast99
12-18-2008, 08:02 AM
Why do you think they called him pinnochio Brian ?

John
Yep, and many have called him a lot worse!

onefast99
12-18-2008, 08:11 AM
I quoted 50k as THE FIGURE STATED BY AN INDUSTRY PROFESSIONAL owner, trainer,breeder, syndicate manager when asked the question by a listener "how much to stable a horse in NY. Can YOU READ?

He did not breakdown the costs but stated.,50k... day rate, farrier, teeth, vets, entry fees, transportation, workout charges, pony to the track, etc. everything EXCEPT..costs for disease or serious injury.

I can't debate your figures, only QUOTE a recognized trainer,owner,breeder. syndicate manager. :sleeping:
You need to be more specific, what was the day rate and what type of horse was he training/owning. Because a 10k claimer in NY wont have any entry fees unless it was the extra fees tacked on by a "syndicate manager". Now if it was a syndicate and you had a nice allowance/small stakes horse then the numbers seem to be correct, and the horse would only need to win two or three times to "break even". You now throw in serious disease or injury. Once a horse has either they are laid up and the cost is then approximately $25-30 a day at a farm. So now the numbers drop quite a bit(depending on the equine centers cost to repair the injury,etc). Thanks for sharing the second hand info with me, next time just get some facts before throwing a number in the air.

onefast99
12-18-2008, 08:26 AM
the best part is, the wealthy, wealthy owners think the higher they pay, the better chance they have at success... lol... purchase a $250,000 yearling then they dish out $50,000 to a trainer for one year to train it... lol... I still dont get it, and I grew up in the business.... then one of the 30 horses the trainer has turns into a graded stakes horse, suddenly his day rate goes from $100 to $125...
Many of todays owners are taking a second look at their bills and the cost factors involved. Why? The economy has changed the ownership game. You are right the very wealthy can still afford to pluck down 50k a year on the NY circuit and not care. Trainers are like stock brokers, they want you to think the upside potential is tremendous without disclosing the downside risk. Once a trainer has a stakes horse their entire mindset changes as well as their bills!