Cornell Collar - Handicapping Angle

[stu]

Do you note the use of the Cornell collar in your handicapping?

[JWBurnie]

It is too dificult to determine when the collar is being put on for the first time unless you're there for a paddock inspection. I've raised the question in the past, "why is this equipment change not noted in the pp's?". It's very valuable information. Not all tracks allow the collar. How are you tracking the addition and results?

[nomadpat]

Since I voted "what is a cornell collar?" might as well ask. What is it?

[Nmytwenties]

There are only a few tracks that I have personally observed that ever mention cornell collar in their list of daily equipment changes and program changes which would lead me to believe many tracks don't provide this information. Therefore I don't factor in the use of it at all, what's the use if all tracks don't announce it like they would blinkers and medications.

[lamboguy]

there are some places that don't allow them like mountaineer. i have seen big improvements to some horses after they use them. the most important thing about them is that a trainer must know how to use the collar.

[JWBurnie]

The collar is used to avoid soft palate displacement.

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/public/research/zweig/Newsletter/2002-07/index.html?/public/research/zweig/Newsletter/2002-07/cover.html~Story

[stu]

Cornell Collar Instructions (http://www.vet-aire.com/instructions.TSD1.html)

The above link shows how the device is used.

[nomadpat]

Thanks! I guess I could have been less lazy and searched. :) I can see why people would want to know this information.

[lefthandlow]

what tracks allow them I'm pretty sure keenland any others??

LL

[stu]

what tracks allow them I'm pretty sure keenland any others??

LL

I know that every track in Colorado and New Mexico allows them.

[JWBurnie]

They're allowed in MD (Lrl, Pim, Tim).


Nmytwenties, what tracks have you seen that advise of the collar being used?

[onefast99]

I claimed a horse 2 years ago from Maggie Moss, we used the Cornell Collar and the horse won her second time out. I cant tell you for sure if it was this device that aided her breathing as we also had a tongue tie performed. I have read several articles that have suggested the success rate on the Cornell Collar is over 60%. The vet group in Lousiana(LSU) told me that the tongue tie procedure has a success rate of over 80%. The cost was over $1848.00. The Cornell Collar is about $325.00-$400.00.

[JWBurnie]

Please explain the tongue tie procedure you had performed that cost $1,848.
The only tongue tie I've ever seen costs pennies and consists of pantyhose or a cut bandage.

[lamboguy]

i did a tie-forward on a horse 3 years ago at new bolton, the horse is still running, he's had only 5 wins and about 12 seconds out of 25 races. now he races at the bottom. i have no problem with the procedure, it was good. i learned alot from this horse, and beleive me i have paid for my education.

the most importand thing i learned is that the odds are against you if you start a horse at 3 instead of 2. and that if you start with a sub-par conditioner, you get a sub-par result.

if you are thinking about entering the horse racing business you must have a trainer that you have full confidence in. if you don't than maybe you have a friend that is in the business and you might be able to go partners with him.

limited partnerships are good if you aren't trying to make any money at the game, and just be part of the game. the good ones have good trainers so they get decent results.

[onefast99]

Please explain the tongue tie procedure you had performed that cost $1,848.
The only tongue tie I've ever seen costs pennies and consists of pantyhose or a cut bandage.
The throat latch procedure I had done was a tie back not a simple tie down to hold the tongue in place prior to the race.
Here is the breakdown, the laryngoplasty(prosthetic)cost $665 by itself the ventral was another $100,ISO Induction was $350(approx 1 hour)the rest of the bill was made up of the anti-biotics necessary during and after the procedure the overnight stay including stall set up the catheter placement,mechanical vent, the equine throat wash etc. The cheaper one is the LLewellyn procedure, maybe thats the one you had done.

[lamboguy]

was that a tie=back or a tie forward?

[onefast99]

was that a tie=back or a tie forward?
According to the discharge instructions it was a tie back,this procedure was elected due to partial paralysis of the palate. The Dr's notes also state this procedure has a minimal downtime. I know the LLewellyn has the least amount of downtime and as you mentioned in an earlier post, it is a choice of one of the nations top owners. I also saw that the success rate in the procedure I had done to my horse was pretty high.

[so.cal.fan]

I would say a rough estimate of 20% of the horses racing in So. Cal. have some wind problem issues.
I don't know if these Cornell Collars are legal in Calif.?
We haven't seen any, at least not at Hollywood Park or Santa Anita.

[ralph_the_cat]

The Cornell collar only helps in aiding the soft palate from displacing... It forces the horses palate into proper position...

Tie Back surgeries are only done when the Trachea is paralyzed...

Paralyzed Trachea v.s. Soft Palate... 2 totally different problems...

The Cornell Collar is a huge performace enhancer, IF it is used on a horse that was diagnosed properly... thats the part handicappers can only guess on, was the horse diagnosed properly?... Or is the trainer putting one on because the horse had trouble breathing in its last start?...

to be honest, Im not to familiar with a tie forward, unless you're just calling it a name Im just not familiar with... They actually tie the tongue forward?...

[lamboguy]

a tie forward is to tie tongueforward. i have had some luck with it. keith asmussen told me he usually doesthe tie back first, it it don't work he goes to the tie forward. if the tie forward don't work you can't help the horses.

i want to tell you form experience that when you have a horse that shows you ability you always go to try to help him overcome his problems. the chances of of helping him are always limited with these new procedures. ralph, like we discussed about the IRAP, i am going to do it on my horse after he runs saturday, instead of doing it to one ankle i am going to do it to both. the reason why is that his ankle has been bad for a few years and it looks likes he compensates on the other one. i have not been able to get more than 3 good races out of him at a time, so i hope this helps. as you know he has fooled me for a while now, so if does get his improvement i have you to thank.

racing horses has never been my strong suit. the way things have worked out this year i am forced into running.

i got hooked on the racing game 30 years ago when i claimed my first horse in sufolk downs. i claimed a 5 yo mare that was never on the turf for $3500. i sent her down to gulfstream with a trainer that had my horse and another one. i told him she had a remote turf pedegree. we put her on the turf for a $6250 tag back then and she jogged and paid $66.00. she would have paid more but i had $200 win on her. 3 weeks later she won again in the feature race on a wednesday afternoon and paid $6.00 in an out of condition alowance race. she was eligble for 1x she ran and won 2x. i sold her after the race for $15k, she never ran again but went to her next task in life and threw a couple of winners. that is a good story, but inbetween then and now i have had plenty of bad ones. i have had horses that i have bought in kentucky that never made down to the farm in florida. i a had on once that got out of a van on the highway and got run over. i had a horse that was about to win a stake race that snapped right before the wire.
through the whole ordeal i am lucky that i have been able to go to the plate and take my share of swings. i met alot of interesting people and characters thru the years in this game. i even met my wife there. i wouldn't trade this game for any thing else that i have ever done. it is full of challenges so when you have the few success's you know how to take them and understand the other people trying to do the same thing.

merry christmas to you and your family, and anyone else that reads this post. hopefully we are all here next year to do this again. and from harvey pack, may the horses be with you

[onefast99]

a tie forward is to tie tongueforward. i have had some luck with it. keith asmussen told me he usually doesthe tie back first, it it don't work he goes to the tie forward. if the tie forward don't work you can't help the horses.

i want to tell you form experience that when you have a horse that shows you ability you always go to try to help him overcome his problems. the chances of of helping him are always limited with these new procedures. ralph, like we discussed about the IRAP, i am going to do it on my horse after he runs saturday, instead of doing it to one ankle i am going to do it to both. the reason why is that his ankle has been bad for a few years and it looks likes he compensates on the other one. i have not been able to get more than 3 good races out of him at a time, so i hope this helps. as you know he has fooled me for a while now, so if does get his improvement i have you to thank.

racing horses has never been my strong suit. the way things have worked out this year i am forced into running.

i got hooked on the racing game 30 years ago when i claimed my first horse in sufolk downs. i claimed a 5 yo mare that was never on the turf for $3500. i sent her down to gulfstream with a trainer that had my horse and another one. i told him she had a remote turf pedegree. we put her on the turf for a $6250 tag back then and she jogged and paid $66.00. she would have paid more but i had $200 win on her. 3 weeks later she won again in the feature race on a wednesday afternoon and paid $6.00 in an out of condition alowance race. she was eligble for 1x she ran and won 2x. i sold her after the race for $15k, she never ran again but went to her next task in life and threw a couple of winners. that is a good story, but inbetween then and now i have had plenty of bad ones. i have had horses that i have bought in kentucky that never made down to the farm in florida. i a had on once that got out of a van on the highway and got run over. i had a horse that was about to win a stake race that snapped right before the wire.
through the whole ordeal i am lucky that i have been able to go to the plate and take my share of swings. i met alot of interesting people and characters thru the years in this game. i even met my wife there. i wouldn't trade this game for any thing else that i have ever done. it is full of challenges so when you have the few success's you know how to take them and understand the other people trying to do the same thing.

merry christmas to you and your family, and anyone else that reads this post. hopefully we are all here next year to do this again. and from harvey pack, may the horses be with you
I enjoyed our chat. Good luck to you racing in 2009 hopefully I will see you at GP in January. We need more people like you as owners in this game. Let me know when you see another Funnycide!

[so.cal.fan]

Best of luck to you and your horses, lamboguy!!!!
Since we can't invest in stock markets, put money in banks to make interest, we need to invest a little in something we know......racing.
Hey, it's less of a gamble than Wall Street!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my great friends on PA.

Diane/so.cal.fan