why choosePTC

[lamboguy]

1. the owner answers the phone
2. they know what the customer wants
3. they give you pace figures on about 6-10 tracks daily (worth minumun $20 per track)
4. they have a good wagering platform
5. they put out some type of handicapper's clocker's report @tampabay downs for the season
6. you can make your bets subject to the odds you want
7. you can bet ahead of time
8. they carry more harness tracks than most
9. they are very friendly
10. they give big rebates

[boomman]

1. the owner answers the phone
2. they know what the customer wants
3. they give you pace figures on about 6-10 tracks daily (worth minumun $20 per track)
4. they have a good wagering platform
5. they put out some type of handicapper's clocker's report @tampabay downs for the season
6. you can make your bets subject to the odds you want
7. you can bet ahead of time
8. they carry more harness tracks than most
9. they are very friendly
10. they give big rebates

Seems like a nice "top ten" list to me!:ThmbUp:

Boomer

[pktruckdriver]

Do they take Comcheks , no c ? Us truckers want to know?


Just kidding, personal service, it just doesn't exist anymore, except at PTC.



Patrick

[rrbauer]

11. When you have a problem at 6PM on Saturday, instead of telling you to call back on Monday, it gets solved at 6PM on Saturday!

[CincyHorseplayer]

You can't watch any races there.How is this the circle jerk benefit???

It's one thing to get a rebate.But if you are stuck looking at a wall you have surrendered the last vestisge of being connected to the races at all.

Is that what it is???I don't want to see result charts.I want to see heads bobbing at the 16th pole.That's what makes this game better than poker.

[lamboguy]

i use ptc as my #1 adw provider. sure there are missing tracks, and no video, so what i did was sign up with ubet because they have the video and they also have turfstats and a few of the missing tracks that ptc doesn't have.

ubet gives stupid points, and ptc gives you money back. you can do alot more with money than points!

[Jeff P]

True... they don't have live track video.

But I'll make the argument that if your personal handle is even remotely significant, the amount of your rebates will easily allow you to pay for live track video elsewhere... as well as a nice big HD flat screen TV or new monitor to watch it on. <G>

-jp

.

[Dave Schwartz]

It's one thing to get a rebate.But if you are stuck looking at a wall you have surrendered the last vestisge of being connected to the races at all.

Cincy,

So, you don't care about rebates but you care about video? Good for [/i]you.[/i] One can find video all over the place. Rebates are much harder to find.

How is this the circle jerk benefit???

What is all this about? You are certainly entitled to disagree with the poster but why the nasty attitude?


Dave Schwartz

[betovernetcapper]

You can't watch any races there.How is this the circle jerk benefit???

It's one thing to get a rebate.But if you are stuck looking at a wall you have surrendered the last vestisge of being connected to the races at all.

Is that what it is???I don't want to see result charts.I want to see heads bobbing at the 16th pole.That's what makes this game better than poker.


Cincy you can get video at many places either free or for a small charge, like $17.95 a month at Youbet. If you wager any more than $250 a month you will earn more in rebates than the video costs you. Not to mention the custom handicapping products Ian gives away for nothing every day. It is just not a big deal for PTC customers. If you are playing anywhere else you are paying plenty for that "free" video.

[cmoore]

I bet at twinspires and bodog. Video from every track is available at twinspires as long as you meet the minimum amount bet which isn't hard to do. I've had tvg and youbet in the past but have cancelled them both..

[rrbauer]

Cincy you can get video at many places either free or for a small charge, like $17.95 a month at Youbet. If you wager any more than $250 a month you will earn more in rebates than the video costs you. Not to mention the custom handicapping products Ian gives away for nothing every day. It is just not a big deal for PTC customers. If you are playing anywhere else you are paying plenty for that "free" video.


Well look who's back in town....long time no see/hear. You OK?

[rrbauer]

You can't watch any races there.How is this the circle jerk benefit???

It's one thing to get a rebate.But if you are stuck looking at a wall you have surrendered the last vestisge of being connected to the races at all.

Is that what it is???I don't want to see result charts.I want to see heads bobbing at the 16th pole.That's what makes this game better than poker.

I guess you have an account with TwinSpires given your concern about whether, or not, they had a deal to take Tampa. TwinSpires has mucho video. Can you enjoy it without pissing on PTC? I bet $200 per month at TS on a track(s) that PTC doesn't offer. That gets me a 20% discount on my BRIS purchases and gets me TS video without any extra charge.

If you really want video why don't you subscribe to RTN? $100 month and you can OD on racing video! They carry each track's full simulcast feed. And, there's TVG and HRTV. Video, schmideo....the games about winning not watching.

[rrbauer]

Video, schmideo....the games about winning not watching.

PTC Record
TOTAL Bets 2,398
$37,902.60
Collected $42,771.93
Bonus $2,210.75
Net $7,080.08

[boomman]

I also noticed B.O.N.C had rejoined us after a long absence........

WELCOME BACK!!!!

Boomer

[PaceAdvantage]

How is this the circle jerk benefit???Wonderful. Really...what a contribution you just made. Thanks so much.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Cincy,

So, you don't care about rebates but you care about video? Good for [/i]you.[/i] One can find video all over the place. Rebates are much harder to find.



What is all this about? You are certainly entitled to disagree with the poster but why the nasty attitude?


Dave Schwartz

You know I really wasn't trying to be nasty at all.But when something is always being thrown at you and referred to by poster after poster and you check it out and it really isn't all that appetizing.There tends to be a reaction to why this is being hammered into public consciousness.

If I didn't hear about it constantly I wouldn't have an opinion about it.But since it is I think it's fair game to be critical of.I don't think there is any etiquette protocol for advertisers.They wilfully put it in your face,you are entitled to smack it in the face back.It's not personal.I think Ian and the site are good for the horseplayer.But just because I don't jump on the bandwagon doesn't mean it's heresy.

[PaceAdvantage]

You know I really wasn't trying to be nasty at all.But when something is always being thrown at you and referred to by poster after poster and you check it out and it really isn't all that appetizing.There tends to be a reaction to why this is being hammered into public consciousness.

If I didn't hear about it constantly I wouldn't have an opinion about it.But since it is I think it's fair game to be critical of.I don't think there is any etiquette protocol for advertisers.They wilfully put it in your face,you are entitled to smack it in the face back.It's not personal.I think Ian and the site are good for the horseplayer.But just because I don't jump on the bandwagon doesn't mean it's heresy.Your choice of language was poor. Circle jerk? As if that was called for...

The point of this game is to make money. You can get video basically anywhere. Bet a couple of bucks at TwinSpires or YouBet each month and you can be awash in video.

PTC is the only place giving regular folks decent rebates. The bottom line is money in this game. If you have other priorities, it's fine to voice them...but please, leave the rather lurid images out of your next critique...

Thanks.

[ryesteve]

If you have other priorities, it's fine to voice them...But after reading this thread, I still don't understand what his priorities are. As several posters have pointed out, all one would need to do is take a small portion of their PTC rebate and put it towards token bets at Twinspires or YouBet, and you'd be able to have your videocake and rebate too.

It leaves you wondering what's really behind the negativity.

[boomman]

But after reading this thread, I still don't understand what his priorities are. As several posters have pointed out, all one would need to do is take a small portion of their PTC rebate and put it towards token bets at Twinspires or YouBet, and you'd be able to have your videocake and rebate too.

It leaves you wondering what's really behind the negativity.

steve: You're right, and getting live video on line is practically a non-issue today and one reason per my discussion with Ian that they didn't pursue the high cost of video: to pass those savings on to their customers in the form of higher cash rewards. And posters can certainly be critical of anything they like, but doing so with PTC and the great service they are offering us as horseplayers is a STRETCH!

Boomer

[Cangamble]

Personally I have no problem reading "circle jerk" on a forum like this. We are all grownups.........I think.

But one has to wonder about the intelligence of the poster who made the comment in the context it was made.

The cost to get video at another site is nominal in comparison to amount the average player gets on rebates at PTC.

There are lots of live free links. If you don't mind waiting a few minutes after a race, racereplay.com gives pretty fast service.

As a member of HPI in Canada, I get free replays and many of the tracks that aren't on HPITV have free live feeds at HPI.

I'm used to seeing races on delay that are shown on HPITV, so I don't have a problem not watching the race in real time.

Here are a few links:
http://www.horse-races.net/library/links-livevideo.htm

[Tom Barrister]

Looking at this from a neutral standpoint:

PTC doesn't carry every track. Therefore, most people who bet the horses through ADWs will need to have at least one other ADW besides PTC.

TwinSpires and YouBet both offer video in return for a reasonable amount of betting action per week/month/year. It would be easy to bet the tracks that PTC doesn't carry at an ADW which has video, and bet the tracks PTC carries at PTC. That way, one can get the video feeds and also get the rebates.

Put another way, why would you play everything at TwinSpires or such, and get some meager "player rewards ", when you can get rebates at PTC for the tracks they carry?

[turfnsport]

Put another way, why would you play everything at TwinSpires or such, and get some meager "player rewards ", when you can get rebates at PTC for the tracks they carry?

Are you saying getting a free toaster after wagering $20,000 at TW is not a good deal? :D

[richrosa]

Put another way, why would you play everything at TwinSpires or such, and get some meager "player rewards ", when you can get rebates at PTC for the tracks they carry?

There will be lots of soul searching if god-forbid PTC ever has to impair its rebate policy. I said it a long time ago that this is the last chance that regular players have to get a rebate and change the rules of the game to our benefit. If we all come up with whinny excuses why not to support PTC, then one day it might be gone.

99% of my handle is through PTC. I just ignore the tracks that they don't carry.

[Jeff P]

Are you currently getting a rebate? If not - why not?

Do you live in one of the following states or Canada?

AL AR CT DE DC FL IL IN KS KY LA ME MD MA MT NH NY NC OH OR PA RI SD TN TX VT VA WA WV WI WY

If so consider signing up for an account at Premier Turf Club.

If lower takeout is something you want - it is my opinion that rebates are the treatment of choice for you. I recently had a phone conversation with Barry Meadow. We both agreed that being a winning player isn't always about whose software or pace figures you use. Sometimes getting the best deal (rebates) is your first best step towards beating the game consistently.

One of the points I keep driving home through HANA is that takeout is too high compared to other forms of gambling. I'm not the only one saying this. In 2004 the National HBPA published a report by Will Cummings:
http://www.nationalhbpa.com/resources/Cummings_report7-17-04.PDF

The report makes some very valid points. Ironically, while the industry has largely ignored the report, many of the things Cummings predicted have manifested themselves in one form or another.

The NTRA Player's Panel also reached many of the same conclusions that Cummings did. In fact the NTRA Player's Panel came out and said the following about rebates:5.Any mechanism that either directly or indirectly lowers takeout rates will result in greater handle, profits and a healthier industry.
In almost every racing jurisdiction takeout is set at the state government level. Rebates are the only mechansism currently in place that effectively reduces takeout. Through HANA I've been advocating lowered takeouts by making rebates available to all.

Did you ever stop to ask yourself why PTC hasn't been able to (so far) land a single TrackNet track signal? It's not for lack of trying on Ian's part. And it's not for lack of willingness to pay the asking price for the signal. TrackNet would like nothing better than for Ian and Premier Turf Club to quietly go away. PTC represents a threat to trackNet's plan to force continued high takeouts upon as many players as possible. Denying track signals to PTC is one way of doing that.

Think I'm making that up?

Anyone remember what TrackNet did towards the end of 2006 and into early 2007? About the same time that the DOJ clamped down on Neteller and PinnacleSports.com was forced to stop accepting action from residents of the United States - TrackNet made it a requirement that rebaters enforce the following on new account sign ups: Bet at least $1 million a year or no rebates! IOW, about the same time thousands of formerly rebated players from Pinnacle were searching for a parimutuel ADW where they could bet horses at reduced vig (such as Elite Turf Club, IRG, RGS, Lien Games, etc.) TrackNet began putting the screws to the player!

Believe me when I tell you this: TrackNet would love nothing better than to force high takeouts upon as many players as possible.

What can you do about it?

Let your wallet do the talking! Sign up for an account at PTC and give THEM your handle instead of giving it to TrackNet.

If TrackNet wins its war of attrition and PTC quietly goes away - it will be a VERY long time before players betting less than $1 million a year will find another ADW offering lowered takeout through rebates.

In my opinion, players everywhere should be lining up to support Ian Myers and Premier Turf Club.

Here's their contact info:

Premier Turf Club
http://www.premierturfclub.com/contactus.jsp

PTC Customer Service Center
601 Northern Pacific Avenue
Fargo, North Dakota 58102
(701) 478-6800



-jp

.

[boomman]

Sharp post Jeff!:ThmbUp:

Boomer

[rrbauer]

You know I really wasn't trying to be nasty at all.But when something is always being thrown at you and referred to by poster after poster and you check it out and it really isn't all that appetizing.There tends to be a reaction to why this is being hammered into public consciousness.



So the question now becomes, Mr./Ms. Whoeverthehellyouare, are you starting to "get it"?

[Bobzilla]

I'm in total agreement with Jeff P's post as well.

I guess what I don't understand is how is it in TrackNet's best interest to impose a higher takeout on everyone everywhere? I'm not doubting it for a second, I guess I just don't understand why? Can't they understand it's in everyone's best interest, from tracks to horsemen to players, to create more handle through lowering takeout? I would think they would be doing all they can to lobby at the state level to get the take lowered everywhere they possibly could. I know I'm coming across as naive here but what am I missing?

Nothing would make me happier than to wake up some morning and learn that PTC would be offering wagering on NYRA tracks. I'm not just a horseplayer, I'm for the most part a NY horseplayer. I enjoy NY racing the most, I've played it the longest and it's where I believe I most enjoy an edge. There is the NY Rewards program for NY and CT residents but the rebate schedule, I am certain, pails in comparison to that of PTC. If PTC ever was able to offer NYRA I wonder if NY and CT players would qualify as it might draw busines away from NY Rewards. It's tough enough for CT players as we cannot legally play over the internet because our AG Richard Blumenthal has taken the position that gambling over the internet is a crime and he has always taken advantage of this position to advance his own future gubernatorial ambitions; so just because he wants to be Governor some day horse players have to be inconvenienced. To wager legally in CT we have to call in our wagers. Does anyone know if there are phone back ups and long waits over the phone at NY Rewards or PTC? I respect PTC for obeying the rule of law in regard to CT residents only being able to wager over the phone, even if we can all agree how stupid the law is and see the real reasons behind why Blumenthal has take the stance he has; it's further evidence that PTC pays attention to detail and does everything the way it's suppose to.

Despite the fact 98% of my annual action is at NYRA tracks I probably should join PTC anyway just to lend my support to what's probably one of the best things to come down the pike in years for the horse player and when I can have the occasion to make a wager at a track offered by PTC, always do it through them. I won't be getting much cash back for lack of volume but does seem like a no brainer.

[rrbauer]

I'm in total agreement with Jeff P's post as well.

I guess what I don't understand is how is it in TrackNet's best interest to impose a higher takeout on everyone everywhere? I'm not doubting it for a second, I guess I just don't understand why?


It's the tandem effect of owning the racetrack, that owns the ADW, that owns the TV channel, that keeps (illegally in my mind) the competition out of the marketplace, that is rooting like hell for a slots subsidy to hurry up and get in the revenue stream before all the horseplayers die; and, because we're all going to die very soon (or go broke) getting our money now is more important than any long-term consideration such as growing handle.

Don't you find it ironic that the only group that is calling for measures to increase handle is a horseplayers' group?

[Bobzilla]

It's the tandem effect of owning the racetrack, that owns the ADW, that owns the TV channel, that keeps (illegally in my mind) the competition out of the marketplace, that is rooting like hell for a slots subsidy to hurry up and get in the revenue stream before all the horseplayers die; and, because we're all going to die very soon (or go broke) getting our money now is more important than any long-term consideration such as growing handle.

Don't you find it ironic that the only group that is calling for measures to increase handle is a horseplayers' group?


I've always found it ironic.

If I'm reading you correctly you're of the opinion that, due to demographics, the industry sees no true potential for long term growth and thus is more concerned with squeezing as much as they can now from an older fan base, who might have a higher elasticity of demand for racing than the younger crowd, before they die. If this is true then those in charge of this industry have no business being in charge if they don't think they have what it takes to make the game grow. I don't know if you're right or not but I'm 45 and am still hoping to be doing this 40 years from now. Wishful thinking perhaps.LOL.

[Ted Craven]

Maybe this is a good place to ask non-US customers of PTC (or Ian): how are your winning wagers treated which would otherwise be 'signers' or for which withholding would apply (e.g. > 300-1). It's my understanding that non-residents are subject to a flat 30% withholding in such cases. I know I can get that back on my annual tax return (e.g. Canada-US tax treaty) but...

Mostly I wager in the Win Pools, but I hit a few nice exactas and trifectas this year either through HPI or on-track in Canada, which I think would have been worth less via PTC (?)

Thanks.

Ted

[Premier Turf Club]

Maybe this is a good place to ask non-US customers of PTC (or Ian): how are your winning wagers treated which would otherwise be 'signers' or for which withholding would apply (e.g. > 300-1). It's my understanding that non-residents are subject to a flat 30% withholding in such cases. I know I can get that back on my annual tax return (e.g. Canada-US tax treaty) but...

Mostly I wager in the Win Pools, but I hit a few nice exactas and trifectas this year either through HPI or on-track in Canada, which I think would have been worth less via PTC (?)

Thanks.

Ted

There is no withholding on tickets for non-US residents. For U.S. residents all pertinent IRS withholding rules apply, unfortunately. :(

[rrbauer]

If I'm reading you correctly you're of the opinion that, due to demographics, the industry sees no true potential for long term growth and thus is more concerned with squeezing as much as they can now from an older fan base, who might have a higher elasticity of demand for racing than the younger crowd, before they die.

You don't have to look any further than their behavior. Take everything they say with "a grain of salt" and take everything they do as if it were gold. If you put them in charge of a "going out of business" sale, you would find advertising plastered all over the place announcing "up to 50% off" and when you got inside you would find the prices marked up.

My suggestion to someone your age would be to start looking around for other uses of your time (and money). If they (not the infamous "they", but the ones running the show) really knew how to generate growth don't you think it would've happened? If they really wanted to improve the customers' experience don't you think it would've been done? When they spend more money for lobbyists in their quest for subsidies, than they spend to improve their product, what does that tell you about where you fit in this game?

[Ted Craven]

There is no withholding on tickets for non-US residents. For U.S. residents all pertinent IRS withholding rules apply, unfortunately. :(

Ian, thanks, great news! Resolved that in 2009 PTC gets all my wagers for tracks they handle, though I'll still use HPI for the others until they get picked up at PTC.

Ted

[happy1]

Please explain how Tracknet can set takeouts, from my understanding they have ZERO to do with takeout.



Are you currently getting a rebate? If not - why not?

Do you live in one of the following states or Canada?

AL AR CT DE DC FL IL IN KS KY LA ME MD MA MT NH NY NC OH OR PA RI SD TN TX VT VA WA WV WI WY

If so consider signing up for an account at Premier Turf Club.

If lower takeout is something you want - it is my opinion that rebates are the treatment of choice for you. I recently had a phone conversation with Barry Meadow. We both agreed that being a winning player isn't always about whose software or pace figures you use. Sometimes getting the best deal (rebates) is your first best step towards beating the game consistently.

One of the points I keep driving home through HANA is that takeout is too high compared to other forms of gambling. I'm not the only one saying this. In 2004 the National HBPA published a report by Will Cummings:
http://www.nationalhbpa.com/resources/Cummings_report7-17-04.PDF

The report makes some very valid points. Ironically, while the industry has largely ignored the report, many of the things Cummings predicted have manifested themselves in one form or another.

The NTRA Player's Panel also reached many of the same conclusions that Cummings did. In fact the NTRA Player's Panel came out and said the following about rebates:
In almost every racing jurisdiction takeout is set at the state government level. Rebates are the only mechansism currently in place that effectively reduces takeout. Through HANA I've been advocating lowered takeouts by making rebates available to all.

Did you ever stop to ask yourself why PTC hasn't been able to (so far) land a single TrackNet track signal? It's not for lack of trying on Ian's part. And it's not for lack of willingness to pay the asking price for the signal. TrackNet would like nothing better than for Ian and Premier Turf Club to quietly go away. PTC represents a threat to trackNet's plan to force continued high takeouts upon as many players as possible. Denying track signals to PTC is one way of doing that.

Think I'm making that up?

Anyone remember what TrackNet did towards the end of 2006 and into early 2007? About the same time that the DOJ clamped down on Neteller and PinnacleSports.com was forced to stop accepting action from residents of the United States - TrackNet made it a requirement that rebaters enforce the following on new account sign ups: Bet at least $1 million a year or no rebates! IOW, about the same time thousands of formerly rebated players from Pinnacle were searching for a parimutuel ADW where they could bet horses at reduced vig (such as Elite Turf Club, IRG, RGS, Lien Games, etc.) TrackNet began putting the screws to the player!

Believe me when I tell you this: TrackNet would love nothing better than to force high takeouts upon as many players as possible.

What can you do about it?

Let your wallet do the talking! Sign up for an account at PTC and give THEM your handle instead of giving it to TrackNet.

If TrackNet wins its war of attrition and PTC quietly goes away - it will be a VERY long time before players betting less than $1 million a year will find another ADW offering lowered takeout through rebates.

In my opinion, players everywhere should be lining up to support Ian Myers and Premier Turf Club.

Here's their contact info:

Premier Turf Club
http://www.premierturfclub.com/contactus.jsp

PTC Customer Service Center
601 Northern Pacific Avenue
Fargo, North Dakota 58102
(701) 478-6800



-jp

.

[Jeff P]

One word:

Rebates.

How does this work?

A customer betting through an ADW that pays a 6 pct rebate bets $1000 in handle on a Saturday. Win or lose when he logs into his ADW account on Sunday morning he finds that the ADW has credited his account for $60...

6 pct of his $1000 handle

It's not exactly the same thing as lower takeout. But rebated players love this because to them it represents better pricing.

Real world case studies have shown that the takeout is too high. Sophisticated players are price sensitive. When better pricing is made available they bet more. Far more. When better pricing is restricted they bet less. Far less.

I called out TrackNet because they have fought availability of better pricing tooth and nail. Their current business model is a failure. By forcing takeouts that are too high upon as many players as possible they are driving the business of price sensitive players away... offshore to sports books in Costa Rica... to Bet Fair in the UK who btw has more handle on North American races at certain tracks than the tracks do themselves.

In short: TrackNet's business model prevents handle growth. Not just my opinion - but the opinion of some very intelligent consultants and critical thinkers the industry has hired and paid several hundred thousand dollars to for economic studies and recommendations.

To address your question: Please explain how Tracknet can set takeouts, from my understanding they have ZERO to do with takeout.They can't set takeout itself. In most racing jurisdictions in the US that's up to state legislatures.

Here's what TrackNet CAN do:

1. Make their track signals available to any and all ADWs willing to pony up and pay the asking price for the signal. IOW get the product out there instead of restricting access to it.

2. Remove their $1 million rebate floor.

IOW grow handle by making better pricing a reality through rebates.



-jp

.

[happy1]

To address your question: They can't set takeout itself. In most racing jurisdictions in the US that's up to state legislatures.

.

cool that's how i thought it worked. Tracknet can however make signal fees so unpalatable that it can eliminate REBATES by anyone they choose.

tnx

[lamboguy]

and you can chose not to play the tracks that don't give you a fair rebate. i have and so haven't a few of my friends. i am not saying that you should, if you love new york racing or california raceing or maryland or churhill, by all means play them with a little rebate or no rebate at all. obviously alot of rebate players are staying away no matter how high the pick 6 carryover pools are getting.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Good post Jcapper.

I have been banging around PTC for no other reasons than the Canary aspect of it and that's because I bet with Twinspires I can make withdraws from a local track.No hassle.I am new to the ADW game and Bodog,an offshore in Costa Rica told me it was a 30-40 day business wait between check if I wanted them.No Thanks.

I can tell you now though I'd want a $600.00 return for every $10,000 bet.I would love it even more if for every $150.00 I bet on a Friday night they could send me a 12-pack! via overnight mail when the freaks need refueling and leave my house!!!(I hope other horseplayers have lives)But I understand such player hospitaility is limited.What a shame.Plus I'm joking!!!

$600.00 is a hell of a lot more significant than the 4 tenths of 1% that Twinspires offers,and I have offered that nugget of information to them.

Nobody can argue the rebates,but the peripheral products CAN be argued all day.And I'd rather side with a horseplayers for horseplayers site but the fact is I will have to split my bets to get video and suffer shipping charges and business dates on winnings.That sucks.It's like City Bank for me to drive 8 miles to River Downs,flash my card and get money.Nobody can argue with that.That might be taboo.From the hatred vented on here from anyone non-republican to anyone claiming a winner.If you win,you have to collect.And I'd rather collect when I need to.That is the entire point=when you win=you collect.The sooner the better.Mine is 8 minutes away non rebate,what is yours and what is that worth??!!!!

[gopony]

1) rebates
2) rebates
3) being a twinspire user also. I have noted on a couple of occasions, that I have been locked out of races because their servers are to busy. At least that is the error message I have been given. Today it was the sixth race at Fair Grounds. Started 5 minutes before PT. Never got the bet in.
One it's really frustrating when you spend an hour HC a race and then find you can't bet it.
Two when after the race you find you would have cashed a winning ticket.

Note to Ian, pay your IT crew well. Before you get a lock in with vendors on servers software, look at Open Source software. Maybe it's already to late, but in the future expansion will be cheaper. ( Just my 2 cents from experience in working with database systems).

I just threw that in because I think you are going to need to expand before long. Why?

Poor performance by other ADW's.
PTC interface (bet builder) is cleaner. I actually think someone who bets on races actually was in on the design phase and had a say in the final product.

I've heard that you are working with other vendors of software to incorporate their software with yours. Placing bets through the same software you are using to handicap. Good Idea.

I had heard of PTC, but until 2 months ago I had never seen the interface. Once I saw the interface, I wanted to try it and did. I also received a rebate, which really did start me moving more of my business your way.

Also customer service has been excellent so far at PTC.

Oh, by the way I didn't bet the 7th race at FG. To frustrated, not good to bet when you're mad. Plus I used the time to further study the races at DED and PEN, which are available on PTC. So an extra $2 will go through PTC tonight.

I know big deal, but where it pays off for PTC is when people are asking me about how this horse racing thing works. Now I have no problem telling them to try and get a PTC account.

[Premier Turf Club]

1) rebates
2) rebates
3) being a twinspire user also. I have noted on a couple of occasions, that I have been locked out of races because their servers are to busy. At least that is the error message I have been given. Today it was the sixth race at Fair Grounds. Started 5 minutes before PT. Never got the bet in.
One it's really frustrating when you spend an hour HC a race and then find you can't bet it.
Two when after the race you find you would have cashed a winning ticket.

Note to Ian, pay your IT crew well. Before you get a lock in with vendors on servers software, look at Open Source software. Maybe it's already to late, but in the future expansion will be cheaper. ( Just my 2 cents from experience in working with database systems).

I just threw that in because I think you are going to need to expand before long. Why?

Poor performance by other ADW's.
PTC interface (bet builder) is cleaner. I actually think someone who bets on races actually was in on the design phase and had a say in the final product.

I've heard that you are working with other vendors of software to incorporate their software with yours. Placing bets through the same software you are using to handicap. Good Idea.

I had heard of PTC, but until 2 months ago I had never seen the interface. Once I saw the interface, I wanted to try it and did. I also received a rebate, which really did start me moving more of my business your way.

Also customer service has been excellent so far at PTC.

Oh, by the way I didn't bet the 7th race at FG. To frustrated, not good to bet when you're mad. Plus I used the time to further study the races at DED and PEN, which are available on PTC. So an extra $2 will go through PTC tonight.

I know big deal, but where it pays off for PTC is when people are asking me about how this horse racing thing works. Now I have no problem telling them to try and get a PTC account.


Thank you for the kind words. We treat our tech guys very well because they are so important. The platform uses MYSQL/RedHAT/J2EE for those that care. No .net here. We were concerned about scaleability.

And I hope it looks like it was designed by a horse player because I designed it (and my tech team coded it) and I have been betting horses since 1975. I have to give credit to oiur beta-testers who have given us very good feeback on how to make it better on each release. Of course it helped that the developers I chose have extensive pari-mutuel experience.

Naturally I am biased but I think its the best platform on the market in terms of functionality. I know we need to do more in terms of graphics and such but we put our time and money into building something highly functional and stable first.

[mannyberrios]

Are you saying getting a free toaster after wagering $20,000 at TW is not a good deal? :D
:lol: :lol: :lol: Rebates, We dont need no stinkin Rebates.:lol: :lol: :lol: :1:

[rokitman]

Any possibility of an RTN/PTC alliance as there is with some of the data providers?

Cirkle Jerque

[Premier Turf Club]

It is something I have thought about and discussed with some players offline. I have not yet explored the costs associated with that.

The issue has always been is that it would cost you less to obtain video elsewhere than we would have to pay a vendor to provide it. I understand that it is still a hole that we need to look at. More track content would go a long way in allowing us to provide an even broader range of services. We shall see what '09 brings.

[Charlie D]

Ian

On a scale of 1-10 what are the chances of PTC being partners with these tracks in 2009??


NYRA
Philly
Fair Grounds
Calder
Gulfstream

[rokitman]

I was was thinking more in terms of an alliance that you just strike a better deal for your customers by affiliating them to your site. No subsidy by you, at all. They benefit by making your customers theirs, at no marketing cost, and, in return, pass that savings back. I suspect that they might have a problem with their contracts doing that with an ADW though. Was also thinking of what you do with Netcapper and HTR as a possibility. Perhaps it could be an option, instead of an addtion, if the cumulative costs are too high. I.E. If you bet X amount per month, you will be refunded X if you are a customer of the following products and services (choose one):

Or two ;)

[rokitman]

Ian

On a scale of 1-10 what are the chances of PTC being partners with these tracks in 2009??


NYRA
Philly
Fair Grounds
Calder
Gulfstream

I'll take a crack at that because I'm sure to be right on my three zero's.

O
4
0
0
1

[Charlie D]

I'm sat here watching race replays on tv when i could probably be betting Calder if i was allowed


Brilliant business model these guys have innit :lol:


Cheers

Frustrated and fed up US racing fan

[trying2win]

On a scale of 1-10 what are the chances of PTC being partners with these tracks in 2009??


NYRA
Philly
Fair Grounds
Calder
Gulfstream

It's kind of interesting that BET AMERICA.COM and PTC both:

1. Operate in conjunction with the NORTH DAKOTA HORSE PARK.

2.They both offer rebates, but BET AMERICA only offers a small 3 % rebate on selected minor tracks, while PTC pays rebates on all the tracks they cover, and in the great majority of cases, higher than BET AMERICA.

3. Here's some strange things...While studying a few tracks being offered by these two ADWS...BET AMERICA is presently offering wagering on AQUEDUCT and FAIR GROUNDS (no rebate on either one), (PTC doesn't carry these tracks), but BET AMERICA offers no wagering on TAMPA BAY or TURF PARADISE (while PTC does).

--Here's my theory....NYRA and TRACKNET will allow some ADWS to carry a few of their tracks, if they promise not to offer rebates. If that is true, it might raise the possibility that PTC could get permission to offer AQUEDUCT and FAIR GROUNDS as well under the same conditions. If so, two questions remain:

1. Would PTC consider this exception to the 'rebates on every track offered' policy, if they could get AQUEDUCT and FAIR GROUNDS added to their menu?

2. Also, would their customers mind if a 'no rebate' policy for AQUEDUCT and FAIR GROUNDS, had to be observed by PTC?

T2W

[boomman]

trying2win wrote:1. Would PTC consider this exception to the 'rebates on every track offered' policy, if they could get AQUEDUCT and FAIR GROUNDS added to their menu?

2. Also, would their customers mind if a 'no rebate' policy for AQUEDUCT and FAIR GROUNDS, had to be observed by PTC?



Jim:
1. IMHO it would be a HUGE mistake for PTC to allow anyone to restrict them from paying cash rewards to players. That is the business model they have always followed and if tracks that don't send them the signal require that ridiculous demand, then they should continue to not sign a contract with them (which to their credit they have steadfastly refused to do) and we as players should ignore those tracks as well. Doing business with PTC INCREASES the track's handle, yet they act like they're doing everyone some BIG favor by sending it to them.

2. Yeah I would mind!:mad: I'M NOT BETTING A DOLLAR on those tracks, and if you want the industry to improve, please follow my lead and only play the tracks that "get it" and have 100% open access!


Boomer

[Bobzilla]

I agree with Boomer on principle. I've always been curious about the NYRA/PTC possibility as this arrangement would be the best Christmas gift I could have ever hoped for. Somehow I have a feeling a business deal between NYRA and PTC would be complicated. NYRA has their own NYRA Rewards program which is restricted to NY and CT (phone only in CT) residents. The cash back schedule, though better than nothing, probably pales in comparison to what customers of PTC might typically expect. Might there be an issue if a resident of another PTC state was getting a percentage rebate on NY action that is considerably more generous than what NYRA currently offers NY and CT residents? I would also think NYRA might not wish to lose NY and CT NYRA Rewards customers to PTC, perhaps there would be that restriction as well. The entire arrangement might be unpalatable to PTC on the basis of fair and equal treatment to their customers. I'm sure talks are ongoing, or at least off and on, and that's probably why there is so little information available about a NYRA/PTC deal.

[rrbauer]

Racing lost its monopoly, but not its monopoly-mentality. I believe that Magna/CDI/TrackNet are guilty of restraint of trade in interstate commerce but that nobody is interested in tying up the issue in the courts for the years that it would take to work through the judicial system.

I believe that the coming year for horse racing will be so bad that it will curl Ed Harris' hair. And, when I get back from my Tampa trip, I plan to sit back and watch it happen. No bailout from my money!

[jimmy m]

How about ptc for the small player like me.Is it worth signing up.I have xpressbet.I play about 100 a day.It would be more if not for the wife.Jimmy

[DeanT]

Hey Jimmy,

You can churn as a small player too.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2008/07/churn.html

[Jeff P]

I'd like to emphasize something from an earlier post I made in this thread:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=616253&postcount=24

One of the reasons I believe players everywhere should be lining up in support of PTC is that they offer rebates to players betting less than $1 million a year.

I would absolutely hate to see PTC legitimize TrackNet's $1 million floor by enforcing it. That would make them just another ADW.

By offering rebates to the customer betting less than a $1 million a year I believe PTC can be a catalyst for change. They have the chance right now to make the industry do a complete 180 in terms of how the player is treated. They and they alone have the ability to grow handle for those tracks willing to compete for your (as in you the small player) business!

Sam Walton once said: "There is only one boss. The customer. And he can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down, simply by spending his money somewhere else."

If enough players sign up for PTC accounts and start giving their personal handle to tracks that "get it" - tracks like ALB, CNL, CTX, DEL, DED, ELP, EMD, FLX, HAW, HOU, KEE, MTH, LAD, MNR, SUF, SUN, TAM, TUP, YAV, ZIA, and the Breeder's Cup (I'm sure I've left a few out) - who've made their signals available to PTC...

If enough players do that then TrackNet (who obviously doesn't get it) will ultimately have to drop its ridiculous $1 million rebate floor if they want to compete.

Guys, the battle lines were clearly drawn by TrackNet a long time ago.

Do you want lowered takeout through rebates? Do you want to change the game? Then show the industry what you want by supporting PTC!!!


-jp

.

[NoCal Boy]

I have to disagree with your macro opinion about 2009 for the racing industry. While I believe there will be a continuing decline in on track attendance and on track handle numbers, I expect 2009 to be a better year than 2008 for certain parts of the racing industry. Open access to the major national ADWs is basically here. I expect the Florida signal deals with Youbet and likely TVG to be announced later this week. Oaklawn is next up shortly thereafter. CA has open access now. I highly doubt the Kentucky Derby and Preakness will be restricted this year given the signal deals being cut now. I suspect the Breeders Cup will be better received in 2009 in terms of handle now that Pro Ride seems to be holding up and there will be plenty of information about it.

The key for many of these tracks is access to wagering outlets and field sizes. The former seems to be coming around with access to the major ADWs being assured to virtually all tracks. The latter is a work in process, but as purses get supplemented with a little better fee structure for purses, my guess is field sizes will also start to increase at the major tracks.

Hopefully PTC will obtain Tracknet content. Hopefully PTC will get into CA. Hopefully PTC will get NYRA. Unfortunately, although PTC has been able to obtain TVG content during 2008, TVG is about to be sold in Q1 of 2009 and its exclusivities are basically done after Turfway ends in March. If the purchaser is CDI, then will PTC even get what little content is available through TVG? Hopefully the answer is a resounding Yes, but CDI is a tough nut to crack.

Magna will get reorganized in some fashion during 2009. TVG will be sold. Youbet might go private. CDI will be the home of the Kentucky Derby and we will see from there. How PTC fits in all of this is open to question if CDI is the dominant player controlling content. However, I do believe Twinspires and Youbet (and more than likely whomever is the acquiror of TVG) will do very well in 2009 as the industry takes a noticeable shift to online and mobile wagering. Xpressbet is a crapshoot as I doubt many large players will want to drive much handle through a reorganized Magna subsidiary, regardless of player trust accounts.

Finally, I see little to no appetite for any reductions in takeout. Justified or not, it will not happen.

Merry Christmas

Racing lost its monopoly, but not its monopoly-mentality. I believe that Magna/CDI/TrackNet are guilty of restraint of trade in interstate commerce but that nobody is interested in tying up the issue in the courts for the years that it would take to work through the judicial system.

I believe that the coming year for horse racing will be so bad that it will curl Ed Harris' hair. And, when I get back from my Tampa trip, I plan to sit back and watch it happen. No bailout from my money!

[highnote]

Finally, I see little to no appetite for any reductions in takeout. Justified or not, it will not happen.


What honest justifications are there for not lowering takeouts?

[gopony]

I
1. Would PTC consider this exception to the 'rebates on every track offered' policy, if they could get AQUEDUCT and FAIR GROUNDS added to their menu?

2. Also, would their customers mind if a 'no rebate' policy for AQUEDUCT and FAIR GROUNDS, had to be observed by PTC?

T2W

I hope they don't. The only track I currently bet using my other account is FG. But I concentrate more heavily on tracks which are covered by PTC. because I get rebates through PTC. I have been betting FG for a the last season and this season and have done well there, but eventually as I acclimate to the other tracks offered at PTC I'll gradually spend less time and money at FG.
So why do I hope that PTC doesn't give in? Because if I vote with my money then PTC gets more of my churn as does the tracks they have. If FG eventually gives in then I can have a rebate there also.

I really believe that any quasi serious bettor ( someone who bets more than 20,000) per year should get some rebate. I don't know what the low end is at PTC, but I know I gave them the figure for a year not excluding FG, But I know my rate is moving 25% higher than what I told them it would be and in part that is due to rebates. My bad days aren't as bad and my good days are better. Although on good days I don't check the rebate column as much as I do on bad days. It helps.

[Sailwolf]

There is no withholding on tickets for non-US residents. For U.S. residents all pertinent IRS withholding rules apply, unfortunately. :(

This action is somewhat new.

[startngate]

1. Would PTC consider this exception to the 'rebates on every track offered' policy, if they could get AQUEDUCT and FAIR GROUNDS added to their menu?

2. Also, would their customers mind if a 'no rebate' policy for AQUEDUCT and FAIR GROUNDS, had to be observed by PTC?I certainly won't speak for Ian, but I suspect PTC would take every signal it can get its hands on, as long as the host fee rate makes it economically viable. They might not get as much action as they would if they could rebate, but I see no reason not to take the signal on that basis alone.

The higher the host fee, the lower the rebate though. I suspect PTC sets a retainage percentage floor and rebates the rest back to the players, less the host fees (and anything extra they have to pay TVG, or TrackNet if they have access).

Here's hoping they get TrackNet and NYRA to budge in 2009 ... :)

[Canadian]

I was wondering. Why can I not bet .20 supers at certain racetracks that offer them on PTC (Western Fair for example).

[Dave Schwartz]

What honest justifications are there for not lowering takeouts?

John,

Simply put, the tracks' revenue model doesn't work with lower takeouts.

Yes, I know all about how the player gets to play longer, and ultimately, bets more. But you see, that is part of the problem from the tracks' point of view - "the speed of money."

So, the player will get to play longer on his bankroll. Let's say that he gets to play 15 days instead of 10. That means that the track makes "a little more" in 15 days than the used to make in 10 days. Well, they're going to have to make 50% more to justify that, which is probably not going to happen.

Now, I realize these figures are arbitrary - and perhaps there are better stats to compute - but the bottom line is that the tracks cannot afford anything that even resembles less revenue.

So, until they can generate other revenue sources, the customer is forced to pay all the bills.

Understand, I am not siding with the tracks. I am simply being realistic.

You know, the tracks have complained for years about on-track attendance being one of the reasons that their revenues are in decline. And they are, of course, right. I contend that it is more than the $4.50 hot dogs, $10 parking etc.

Horse racing, like football, is no longer primarily an in-person game! Way more people are going to be interested if they can watch the game via TV or the web. Horse racing needs to change their business model to one that works.

Seems logical that the easy answer comes from making money from the video signal. However, the tracks' general position is that this video signal should be paid for, once again, out of the customers' wagers. Instead, they should be looking at ways to broaden the base of the sport so that people really want to watch it on TV.

If they watch it on TV, then there is another source of revenue: advertising. Look at Breeder's Cup day. ESPN isn't giving those ads away. They' generating big-time money from them. So, what we need is a Breeder's Cup a month, or a mini-BC each week, or enough following to justify any sort of every day channel.

Even if some of the cost is born by the customer, it is not "betting dollars."

So, in a simple answer to your question, "Yes, there is honest justification."


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[ddog]

John,

Simply put, the tracks' revenue model doesn't work with lower takeouts.

Yes, I know all about how the player gets to play longer, and ultimately, bets more. But you see, that is part of the problem from the tracks' point of view - "the speed of money."

So, the player will get to play longer on his bankroll. Let's say that he gets to play 15 days instead of 10. That means that the track makes "a little more" in 15 days than the used to make in 10 days. Well, they're going to have to make 50% more to justify that, which is probably not going to happen.

Now, I realize these figures are arbitrary - and perhaps there are better stats to compute - but the bottom line is that the tracks cannot afford anything that even resembles less revenue.

So, until they can generate other revenue sources, the customer is forced to pay all the bills.

Understand, I am not siding with the tracks. I am simply being realistic.

You know, the tracks have complained for years about on-track attendance being one of the reasons that their revenues are in decline. And they are, of course, right. I contend that it is more than the $4.50 hot dogs, $10 parking etc.

Horse racing, like football, is no longer primarily an in-person game! Way more people are going to be interested if they can watch the game via TV or the web. Horse racing needs to change their business model to one that works.

Seems logical that the easy answer comes from making money from the video signal. However, the tracks' general position is that this video signal should be paid for, once again, out of the customers' wagers. Instead, they should be looking at ways to broaden the base of the sport so that people really want to watch it on TV.

If they watch it on TV, then there is another source of revenue: advertising. Look at Breeder's Cup day. ESPN isn't giving those ads away. They' generating big-time money from them. So, what we need is a Breeder's Cup a month, or a mini-BC each week, or enough following to justify any sort of every day channel.

Even if some of the cost is born by the customer, it is not "betting dollars."

So, in a simple answer to your question, "Yes, there is honest justification."


Regards,
Dave Schwartz


Dave

yes all that is nice, but to "broaden the base" you can't get that with the take in effect.
I don't even think it's about "broadening" anything , just a slow bleed out that hopefully this gen of track mgmt will be out before it blows, the heck with the next one, if there is a next gen of track guys.

The only way it works out is less , many less tracks.
That is underway and isn't going to stop soon.


everyday channels are not going to happen on a mass appeal level
most cable systems don't want them, they can do better running 1940 movies and selling ads to that than any type of horse racing.

Espn makes more off reruns of poker/pool tournies i expect than racing.

The only way a couple of mass everyday racing channels are going to go is if the industry feeds it the cash no matter the cost to start up.
That is the only hope I can see.

if the "industry" is not willing to bet on that then why should I bet with their standard take?

imo anyway.

[ddog]

I have to disagree with your macro opinion about 2009 for the racing industry. While I believe there will be a continuing decline in on track attendance and on track handle numbers, I expect 2009 to be a better year than 2008 for certain parts of the racing industry. Open access to the major national ADWs is basically here. I expect the Florida signal deals with Youbet and likely TVG to be announced later this week. Oaklawn is next up shortly thereafter. CA has open access now. I highly doubt the Kentucky Derby and Preakness will be restricted this year given the signal deals being cut now. I suspect the Breeders Cup will be better received in 2009 in terms of handle now that Pro Ride seems to be holding up and there will be plenty of information about it.

The key for many of these tracks is access to wagering outlets and field sizes. The former seems to be coming around with access to the major ADWs being assured to virtually all tracks. The latter is a work in process, but as purses get supplemented with a little better fee structure for purses, my guess is field sizes will also start to increase at the major tracks.

Hopefully PTC will obtain Tracknet content. Hopefully PTC will get into CA. Hopefully PTC will get NYRA. Unfortunately, although PTC has been able to obtain TVG content during 2008, TVG is about to be sold in Q1 of 2009 and its exclusivities are basically done after Turfway ends in March. If the purchaser is CDI, then will PTC even get what little content is available through TVG? Hopefully the answer is a resounding Yes, but CDI is a tough nut to crack.

Magna will get reorganized in some fashion during 2009. TVG will be sold. Youbet might go private. CDI will be the home of the Kentucky Derby and we will see from there. How PTC fits in all of this is open to question if CDI is the dominant player controlling content. However, I do believe Twinspires and Youbet (and more than likely whomever is the acquiror of TVG) will do very well in 2009 as the industry takes a noticeable shift to online and mobile wagering. Xpressbet is a crapshoot as I doubt many large players will want to drive much handle through a reorganized Magna subsidiary, regardless of player trust accounts.

Finally, I see little to no appetite for any reductions in takeout. Justified or not, it will not happen.

Merry Christmas


even with all the other issues racing has , I think you are way way way underestimating the general economic fallout on handle.

if overall they stay close to last year it will be a miracle.

Also on field sizes , something tells me we are going to see some big owners/groups drop out in the next year or two, not to mention the smaller guys who can't make it.
We will see.

[Dave Schwartz]

Dog,

I agree with you.

I also agree with someone who said (in another thread) that 2009 was going to see improvement for the player. Well, I agree that it is coming but I think it will be 2010 before it gets better.

I think your point is well taken - tracks are going to fail. The ones that haven't failed yet are going to see the inevitable handwriting on the wall and become more open for change.

We can stamp our feet and shout, "I want lower takeouts!" all we want. It simply isn't going to happen in today's business climate. Listen, there have been voices shouting that mantra for years without much change.

Tracks are going to have to find a model that works. The current one simply doesn't. And the horsemen don't help either. So, here is the eternal triangle - tracks, horsemen and players, everyone shouting "We want, we need, we've got to have..." yet the demands of one are always at the expense of the others. The entire model needs overhauling.

There must be additional revenue sources!

Only those other revenue sources can take the pressure off the takeout.


Just my opinion.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Premier Turf Club]

I was wondering. Why can I not bet .20 supers at certain racetracks that offer them on PTC (Western Fair for example).

CPMA (Canadian Pari-Mutuel Association) rules, not ours. We allow fractional wagering wherever it is permitted by the host track (and regulatory authorities).

Happy New Year All!

[Canadian]

Dog,

We can stamp our feet and shout, "I want lower takeouts!" all we want. It simply isn't going to happen in today's business climate. Listen, there have been voices shouting that mantra for years without much change.




You know. I really don't think anyone has ever heard you before. Most horsemen, track operators or even the general public have not even a clue what takeout is.

[Canadian]

CPMA (Canadian Pari-Mutuel Association) rules, not ours. We allow fractional wagering wherever it is permitted by the host track (and regulatory authorities).

Happy New Year All!


Really? So Canadians can but Americans can't? Makes sense, cause at my local simulcast facilities I can't bet fractional wagers that Americans can.

[Premier Turf Club]

Really? So Canadians can but Americans can't? Makes sense, cause at my local simulcast facilities I can't bet fractional wagers that Americans can.

Yes, there are some wagers that we can't offer at Canadian tracks. I think the fractional PK4 at FE is another one.

[gopony]

Dog,

There must be additional revenue sources!

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

How about
One Minute Rice - Fair Grounds
Joe's Crab Shack - Delta Downs
Kentucky Bourbon - Churchill Downs

[Charlie D]

There must be additional revenue sources!

Only those other revenue sources can take the pressure off the takeout.




Dave

A fair few tracks have an additional revenue source coming in via slots, but as yet i don't think one has bothered to lower take



Maybe racing leaders, state leaders forgot about the players in tis gold rush, then again, maybe not

[ddog]

Dave

Imo, most owners/trainers and I think track mgmt types at some level and most are rather open about the attitude , SNEER at the avg bettor.

They feel they are the straw that stirs the drink and of course to some extent they are correct.

As CharlieD brought up, many tracks got the revenue increase via other games of chance and bupkus got passed to players.

I always thought that the "side revenue" was going to be a net bad for players , if not the whole industry.

It is just a different shade of a bail out, the tracks/horse types could NEVER generate the type of cash that comes in now without the slots cards,etc.

So, not that it will happen , but the "free money" needs to be taken out of the horse groups kitty. They pay out what THEY and only THEY bring in.

The other goes to the track/state via taxes,etc.

That will be bloody short term but it's the only way to find out what level of decent racing can be supported.

I maintain not much without the "free money" at most tracks.

To me this is just the same argument as the eternal fight between tb and other breeds owner groups as to the split of wagering bucks when running mixed meets/cards.


Looking for more revenue to prop up a dying part of the game (without the false incentives from the other gambling) is no good imo.

[Cangamble]

Yes, there are some wagers that we can't offer at Canadian tracks. I think the fractional PK4 at FE is another one.
In Canada on HPI you can't bet fractional supers or Picks on
American tracks.

[Charlie D]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/48599.htm?id=48599

TrackNet’s goal has always been to broadly distribute the content of its member racetracks,” added Scott Daruty, president and CEO of TrackNet. “Unfortunately, in the recent past various industry issues have prevented that from happening. However, we are now at a point where those issues appear to be resolved. This agreement relating to the distribution of the Oaklawn signal for account wagering is another example of how the industry is well served by broad distribution.”


Then why have ADW's like PTC not got the signal for Tracknet tracks yet

Ian, pay up yer tight bugger :D

[raybo]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/48599.htm?id=48599




Then why have ADW's like PTC not got the signal for Tracknet tracks yet

Ian, pay up yer tight bugger :D





I responded to this in a previous thread. Tracknet has to offer a contract to PTC, I don't believe they have yet. Tracknet decides who gets the signals and who doesn't simply by offering or not offering a contract.

[rokitman]

Dave

A fair few tracks have an additional revenue source coming in via slots, but as yet i don't think one has bothered to lower take



Maybe racing leaders, state leaders forgot about the players in tis gold rush, then again, maybe not

They didn't forget. They just didn't give a shit.

[Charlie D]

I responded to this in a previous thread. Tracknet has to offer a contract to PTC, I don't believe they have yet. Tracknet decides who gets the signals and who doesn't simply by offering or not offering a contract.

Read that Raybo and i could be wrong, but surely companies like PTC, youbet, etc don't sit waiting for the Tracknet signal salespersons phonecall

So it begs question

Then why have ADW's like PTC not got the signal for Tracknet tracks yet

[raybo]

Read that Raybo and i could be wrong, but surely companies like PTC, youbet, etc don't sit waiting for the Tracknet signal salespersons phonecall

So it begs question

PTC has been in negotiations with Tracknet for quite some time. I believe, info from a reliable source, that PTC has asked for a contract and have received no response from Tracknet.

[Charlie D]

PTC has been in negotiations with Tracknet for quite some time. I believe, info from a reliable source, that PTC has asked for a contract and have received no response from Tracknet.


No response from Tracknet makes these statements a tad confusing

TrackNet’s goal has always been to broadly distribute the content of its member racetracks,” added Scott Daruty, president and CEO of TrackNet


Florida HBPA Executive Director Kent Stirling said the agreement is nonexclusive, meaning any other ADW site interested in paying the agreed rate will be allowed to carry the signal.

[raybo]

No response from Tracknet makes these statements a tad confusing

Tracknet's publicly announced goals are one thing, their real goals may be completely different.

The statement from HBPA is misleading. Tracknet must first offer a contract, then the HBPA has the option of accepting it or declining it.

[Jeff P]

Simply put, the tracks' revenue model doesn't work with lower takeouts.I have to disagree with this.

In 2003 Stevenson & Associates, a consulting firm under contract with the National HBPA hired Will Cummings to do an economic study on racing. Cummings' report can be found on the National HBPA's website at this url:
http://www.nationalhbpa.com/resources/Cummings_report7-17-04.PDF

To anyone who hasn't read the report I suggest giving it a good read. Also worth noting is Cummings' biography found on p. 42 of the report. IMHO he is the real deal.

It's ironic that pretty much everything in the report has proven itself true in one way or another. Especially in light of the way the racing industry has seen fit to ignore virtually ALL of the recommendations in the report.

A few years later the NTRA Player's Panel came to many of the same conclusions about takeout and handle growth that Cummings did. Mainly that it is too high and that reducing takeout is something that needs to happen if the industry wants to see handle growth.

Track management will tell you that the track's revenue model won't work with reduced takeouts. What track management (and horsemen's groups like the THG) do realize - and won't publicly admit - is that racing's current 20 odd pct takeout structure has done exactly what Cummings said it would do in the report:

It has stopped handle growth dead in its tracks.

Other games such as slots and poker (and even the MA state lottery) have beaten the crap out of racing over the past several decades in the growing handle arena. And one of the primary reasons is the takeout of their games compared to ours. Hint: it's lower.

A working revenue model isn't about fleecing current customers faster.

It's about pricing the game of racing competitively and marketing it in fresh new ways to new market segments.

There are millions of customers out there involved in other games who may never - not even once in their lives - have given racing a second thought.

Racing finds itself is in its current state of affairs because other games have done a better job of reaching new customers than racing has.

Both Cummings and the NTRA Player's Panel pointed out that innovation and competitive pricing are two requirements for making handle growth a reality.

I'll make the argument that it's high time for the racing industry to wake up and grow the game by listening (for a change) to the advice of people like Will Cummings.



-jp

.

[Jeff P]

Tracknet's publicly announced goals are one thing, their real goals may be completely different.
BINGO!


-jp

.

[Canadian]

Is there going to be live video from PTC anytime soon? Is that a goal?

[exactaplayer]

I have a question regarding the wager feature on ptc. You can use either manual or automatic wagering mtp. It appears you can wager after post ? I just entered a 0 mtp choice but you can also enter -0.30 mtp and so on. Could not find any help at ptc.

[cj]

I have a question regarding the wager feature on ptc. You can use either manual or automatic wagering mtp. It appears you can wager after post ? I just entered a 0 mtp choice but you can also enter -0.30 mtp and so on. Could not find any help at ptc.

Very few tracks ever go off at post time. By using that option, you are taking a greater chance of being shut out. I've had a few times i got shut out using 0 MTP. On the other hand, at a few tracks, you would probably be safe using -5.00 MTP.

[Premier Turf Club]

Very few tracks ever go off at post time. By using that option, you are taking a greater chance of being shut out. I've had a few times i got shut out using 0 MTP. On the other hand, at a few tracks, you would probably be safe using -5.00 MTP.

Exacta, CJ got the feature right.

0 MTP doesn't mean the races goes off, it's just the scheduled program post time and corresponds to when the track sends the first 0 MTP data stripe. At some tracks theoff time is pretty close to 0, greyhounds in particular. On the other hand, at Cal Expo you've probably got 4-6 minutes after the "0" before the race goes off. It's a tradeoff between best execution and getting shut-out. At most tracks we tell people you can usually go to -0:30 or - 1MTP with no worry.

[salty]

Why is there an age limit of 21?

I can buy ciggerettes and porn, I can go to a casino and play slots, I can go to the liqour store down the street and buy ....... scratch tickets, state lottery, and powerball. And I can bet on races at an otb or track. I can even play poker online. But, I can't bet on a bunch of different sites?

Just wondering the reason behind it



-salty

[startngate]

Why is there an age limit of 21?

I can buy ciggerettes and porn, I can go to a casino and play slots, I can go to the liqour store down the street and buy ....... scratch tickets, state lottery, and powerball. And I can bet on races at an otb or track. I can even play poker online. But, I can't bet on a bunch of different sites?

Just wondering the reason behind it

-saltyState laws or Racing Commission regulations. Same reason you can buy all those things at 18, but not at 12.

It is not universal in the US that an 18 year old can even bet on horses. For example, you have to be 19 in Alabama in some counties (like Birmingham), while Washington, New Hampshire and Nevada are 21. Texas at one time pegged the age at the same as buying liquor (21), but that may have changed.

When you play poker online you are not doing it through a US provider, so whatever law there is where the operate is in play there.

So, it's quite possible that some sites, rather than having to keep track of the laws in multiple jurisdictions just cut it off at 21 to be safe. In the earlier days of Oregon, all the ADW's were strictly 21, even though Oregon allows anyone over 18. Not sure if that's still the case.

[rrbauer]

Dog,


There must be additional revenue sources!

Only those other revenue sources can take the pressure off the takeout.


Just my opinion.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Intuitively you would expect that as states, tracks and horse owners gain additional revenue from the alternate gaming sources that we would see
some takeout reductions. That simply has not happened. And, I don't think you have to look any farther than the breakage issue to understand that IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN unless we as horseplayers bring so much pressure to bear on the other two "partners" that make up our game that it becomes a survival action to those partners.

We have NO STANDING with our other industry partners other than to provide money to generate revenue for them. Our money is our ONLY bargaining chip in this battle and if we don't take some action very soon even our money won't matter because our betting-handle-generated revenue source will have lost its importance as purses become funded from other sources.

[prospector]

i only bet tracks that PTC carries...don't need any others..
that's my bargaining chip...want my money, open up PTC..
i don't miss any tracks..

[rrbauer]

i only bet tracks that PTC carries...don't need any others..
that's my bargaining chip...want my money, open up PTC..
i don't miss any tracks..

Good move. Built-in takeout reduction!

[Charlie D]

Good move. Built-in takeout reduction!


Every US PMU bettor (be they $2, $5, $10, $100, whatever ) taking this game even remotely serious should be betting via the built in takeout reduction

[rokitman]

I sent a reminder email to Ian yesterday , as he had requested (but way late on my part), that I had hit a a sign-up bonus threshold, and it was credited to my account before my butt had completed making its customary dent in my chair.