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View Full Version : Cobra venom used on Alydar in 1978


Spendabuck85
12-09-2008, 04:57 PM
From drf.com (last 3 paragraphs in article)
http://www.drf.com/news/article/100443.html
Among the revelations emerging at the Dec. 3 hearing was Veitch's testimony that he used cobra venom on his Triple Crown campaigner Alydar in September 1978. Veitch said he used it to treat a coffin-bone injury after the colt won the Travers.

The veterinarian who recommended the cobra venom, Veitch said, was Dr. Chuck Allen, now deceased. Veitch said Allen has treated other horses with the substance, which was not well-known or subject to specific regulation at the time; it was approved by the Food and Drug Administration as a treatment for Lou Gehrig's disease in humans.

"I didn't know if the bone had healed, and we wanted something in the short term, so that if he was feeling it pinching, he could get [the pain] out of his mind," Veitch said in an interview after the Dec. 3 hearing. "With a lesser horse, you may have nerved him, but I didn't want to do that with a horse like Alydar."

Here is his racing record from the Travers on:
8/19/1978 Saratoga Travers Stakes 2 1¾ (4)Affirmed (http://www.hitak.com/home/alydar/affirmed.html), Alydar, Nasty And Bold 1st by dq
3/31/1979 Hialeahallowance 1 7 (6)Alydar, Fort Prevel, Jachal II
4/13/1979 OaklawnOaklawn Handicap 2 no (7)San Juan Hill, Alydar, A Letter To Harry
5/5/1979 AqueductCarter Handicap 2 nk (6)Star De Naskra, Alydar, Sensitive Prince
5/28/1979 BelmontMetropolitan Handicap 6 12 (9)State Dinner, Dr. Patches, Sorry Lookin
6/17/1979 BelmontNassau County Handicap 1 3¾ (3)Alydar, Nasty And Bold, Sorry

Spectacular Sid
12-09-2008, 08:43 PM
From Paulick last week

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/venomous-confession-by-veitch-about-alydar/

the little guy
12-09-2008, 09:33 PM
The list of trainers that have used Cobra Venom over the last 100 years is probably pretty substantial.

jfb
12-09-2008, 10:11 PM
The list of trainers that have used Cobra Venom over the last 100 years is probably pretty substantial.


"With a lesser horse, you may have nerved him, but I didn't want to do that with a horse like Alydar."

There is no doubt in my mind that there is no excuse for administering drugs (even organic ones like snake venom) to mask a horse's pain so that he/she can continue to race on injured limbs.

I know that this is a well-trodden argument, but I would estimate that more countries adhere to it than not.

Robert Fischer
12-09-2008, 10:34 PM
Biancone's Vet should get a 2nd chance... after all we gave the beloved Alydar cobra venom. Right ?

jfb
12-09-2008, 10:45 PM
What does it mean to "nerve a horse" - umm, a lesser horse than Alydar.

I can guess a little that it means to remove the nerve connection between the injured part to the brain so that the horse does not feel the injury.

Is this so? Is this accepted practice?

the little guy
12-09-2008, 10:48 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe nerving is now illegal.

ryesteve
12-09-2008, 10:52 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that there is no excuse for administering drugs (even organic ones like snake venom) to mask a horse's pain so that he/she can continue to race on injured limbs.I agree, but from the way Veitch tells it, it wasn't used to get him to the races. "we wanted something in the short term", and it was 6 months before he had another race.

jfb
12-09-2008, 11:24 PM
I agree, but from the way Veitch tells it, it wasn't used to get him to the races. "we wanted something in the short term", and it was 6 months before he had another race.

Think you for the distinction.

There is a huge difference between using drugs in therapy and using them as means to mask pain and race on injured limbs. <I am still contemplating how the connections lucked out with Big Brown>

But even Kentucky has cobra venom as a Class A medication, deemed to have "no legitimate therapeutic indication in the equine athlete."

This is part of the confusion: what is legitimate for a horse's well being and what is serving the commercial interests of the connections at the horse's expense?

Mineshaft
12-09-2008, 11:27 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe nerving is now illegal.





Not in Louisiana-You have to report it to the stewards if you do it.

jfb
12-09-2008, 11:30 PM
Not in Louisiana-You have to report it to the stewards if you do it.

Practices like nerving are the low-hanging fruit* that groups like PETA go after so that the can promote their own agenda.


*http://drf.com/news/article/100458.html

slewis
12-09-2008, 11:36 PM
Biancone's Vet should get a 2nd chance... after all we gave the beloved Alydar cobra venom. Right ?


If you owned and raced in this sport, you dont want him back in the game.

When he was practicing in NY he was well sought by owners for a reason which I wont say on the record but figure it out if you can.

No more second chances. He has an advanced degree and can earn a good living away from the racetrack.

Greyfox
12-09-2008, 11:48 PM
Biancone? Why is that name bouncing in my head? Biancone?
It's like "boing, boing, boing." Gerald Mc boing boing....Biancone
Biancone? Biancone? Biancone?

Why?
;)

Robert Fischer
12-10-2008, 12:27 AM
Quote RF ///Biancone's Vet should get a 2nd chance... after all we gave the beloved ///Alydar cobra venom. Right ?
If you owned and raced in this sport, you dont want him back in the game.

When he was practicing in NY he was well sought by owners for a reason which I wont say on the record but figure it out if you can.

No more second chances. He has an advanced degree and can earn a good living away from the racetrack.

not my personal opinion, more of a rhetorical question about the timing of these stories that are coming out of the woodwork.

My personal opinion is the the Vet shouldn't even be allowed to OWN a Pet :jump:. After he serves his year in JAIL and pays a hefty fine he can resume his life with a non-animal related job. :mad: ;)

jotb
12-10-2008, 05:13 AM
What does it mean to "nerve a horse" - umm, a lesser horse than Alydar.

I can guess a little that it means to remove the nerve connection between the injured part to the brain so that the horse does not feel the injury.

Is this so? Is this accepted practice?

Hello Jfb:

Nerving is a very dangerous and cruel method of treatment. Acid is injected into the injured area, but it is intentionally injected into the nerve. This numbs the nerve, allowing the horse to move without pain. I hope that answers your question.

Joe

Shenanigans
12-10-2008, 01:39 PM
What does it mean to "nerve a horse" - umm, a lesser horse than Alydar.

I can guess a little that it means to remove the nerve connection between the injured part to the brain so that the horse does not feel the injury.

Is this so? Is this accepted practice?

Nerving is only legally allowed in the foot, not in the joints, and even then, the foot is not allowed to be totally nerved.

jfb
12-10-2008, 04:49 PM
Hello Jfb:

Nerving is a very dangerous and cruel method of treatment. Acid is injected into the injured area, but it is intentionally injected into the nerve. This numbs the nerve, allowing the horse to move without pain. I hope that answers your question.

Joe

I was trying to imagine what it feels like. I know how dangerous it is to walk around on a foot that you cannot feel - like how easy it is to turn an ankle if your foot falls asleep.

So with a horse not feeling his feet, or at least the injury, I can imagine the danger for further injury is greatly enhanced. Plus the process itself sounds barbaric.

CryingForTheHorses
12-10-2008, 05:45 PM
Hello Jfb:

Nerving is a very dangerous and cruel method of treatment. Acid is injected into the injured area, but it is intentionally injected into the nerve. This numbs the nerve, allowing the horse to move without pain. I hope that answers your question.

Joe



Maybe I can help you clarifiy maybe what you mean...I have never seen or heard of acid like you say,I have seen sarapin blocks to the nerve if the feet are sore, Sarapin is also a block that is not allowed on race day. I have also seen where they 'nick" a horse,That procedure consists of making a insision and pulling the nerve to the surface,Cutting a piece off it then cauterizing it so it doesnt grow back and then sewing up the suture.Nerving a horse is dangerous as not only does the horse lose the feeling but he also loses the blood supply over a period of time.Most horse have sore feet due to the excessive speeds that they run on hard tracks.

Cangamble
12-10-2008, 07:17 PM
The ORC provides a vet list at their site. Included are horses who are on the Cryoanaesthesia and Nerve List

http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html/pdf2html.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ontarioracingcom mission.com%2FPDF_reports%2FCryoanaesthesia_and_Ne rve_List.pdf&images=yes

Other lists include procaine, lasix, bleeders:
http://www.ontarioracingcommission.ca/resources.aspx?id=265

One thing I can't stand is the fact that they don't list their rulings and suspensions on the site and the only way to get them is on the actual DRF or on the live program. Why isn't that info available to the online community?