Pinnacle-No More North American Horse Wagers Accepted? [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

TimesTheyRAChangin

12-09-2008, 11:30 AM

From their site:

Please note:

Important Racing Announcement : Due to the various changes in the North American racing industry, Pinnacle Sports finds itself in a position where we are unable to offer horse racing to our satisfaction. This, added to the declining interest of our clients in racing in general, has prompted us to discontinue wagering on daily North American horse racing as of Mon. 15th Dec. 2008.

12-09-2008, 12:41 PM

It was always going to happen once they pulled the plug on US customers, just a matter of time.

rrbauer

12-09-2008, 01:08 PM

I'm surprised that it has taken this long. February 2007 was when they dropped their US customers.

12-09-2008, 03:26 PM

There is no reason to believe anyone outside the US wants to seriously bet the US with the small pools and small field sizes.

Dave Schwartz

12-09-2008, 03:33 PM

CJ,

Except for Canadians.

Dave

Steve 'StatMan'

12-09-2008, 04:46 PM

Let's see if the pools get a little larger now.

lamboguy

12-09-2008, 05:07 PM

rrbauer

12-09-2008, 07:23 PM

pinacle was getting more action on american tracks from more americans than the race tracks in america. they quit because they got killed. i know a guy that beat them out of $300k in 4 days, and was gonna get them more if they kept going.

I played with Pinnacle on selected meets over about a 4-year period. Never had any problems getting bets placed, or getting my money out. Over that period of time I used to hear (mostly from posts on this board) about players that were cleaning up at Pinnacle and that they were being banned, etc. And, I would hear about how Pinnacle was laying off bets into the pools, etc.

Never believed a word of any of that. Pinnacle is a multi-billion $ outfit and bookmaking is a very lucrative business and they are very astute business operators. It that business was legal in this country me and my money would be there....in a heartbeat.

Your post is without substance and frankly, it's a joke.

Cangamble

12-09-2008, 08:33 PM

I played with Pinnacle on selected meets over about a 4-year period. Never had any problems getting bets placed, or getting my money out. Over that period of time I used to hear (mostly from posts on this board) about players that were cleaning up at Pinnacle and that they were being banned, etc. And, I would hear about how Pinnacle was laying off bets into the pools, etc.

Never believed a word of any of that. Pinnacle is a multi-billion $ outfit and bookmaking is a very lucrative business and they are very astute business operators. It that business was legal in this country me and my money would be there....in a heartbeat.

Your post is without substance and frankly, it's a joke.
I know someone personally who got an email this year that said he could no longer play horses at Pinnacle (because he was winning too much).
He even sent me the email.
My friend closed his account there even though they still permitted him to bet on sports etc.

Cangamble

12-09-2008, 08:44 PM

I posted the email here before:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45177&highlight=pinnacle

lamboguy

12-09-2008, 09:25 PM

with all due respect rrbauer, pinnacle is as classy an operation as there is offshore. but the guy that runs the place knows the horse business. they were doing over $5million a day in handle that never made the parimutual pools. they shut people off that win money, its that simple. what happened is that the people that got shut off kept getting beards in to bet the money under diferent accounts. i don't have a clue who you think you are or what you think you know, but your post has no substance behind it and makes absolutely no sense at all

lamboguy

12-09-2008, 09:29 PM

Imriledup

12-10-2008, 03:07 AM

one more thing i want to add is that even when you were playing with pinnacle before the new internet gambling laws came into effect, you were braking the law and could have been prosecuted for ilegal gambling.

Has the US Govt ever successfully prosecuted a gambler for betting on the internet? And, if they did, what was the punishment. Thanks.

ezrabrooks

12-10-2008, 07:28 AM

Has the US Govt ever successfully prosecuted a gambler for betting on the internet? And, if they did, what was the punishment. Thanks.

The point is, that it is illegal...whether it has ever been prosecuted is not the issue. I live in a State that if you call the AG, or Horse Racing Commission, they will tell you, without a doubt, that Internet wagering is illegal, however, you can open a horse racing account with at least three (3) legitimate stateside ADW's in a heartbeat. I choose not to do this, as I don't want some Patrick Fitzgerald wannabe bureaucrat nosing around in my business, regardless how little chance there is for that to happen.

Ez

lamboguy

12-10-2008, 07:38 AM

Cangamble

12-10-2008, 09:36 AM

as far as i know there hasn't been a prosecution of any small time gambler betting on the internet. as far as i know before the recent internet laws, it was actually legal for an offshore entity to be in business. they are governed by the laws of the country they are in. if you were making the bet offshore you were breaking regular interstate, or intrastate laws. if it was a federal crime you could have been prosecuted under some money laundering statute. if prosecuted under state laws it would be the same as any other gambling offense. remember that betting illegaly is the same as receiving bets illegally.

the new internet deal with the tranfering of money with western union, paypal, credit cards and banks.
It is a gray area all over the place. Gray, because there have been no prosecutions of bettors.
In Canada, it is my understanding that there is nothing illegal about betting with an offshore company. And as long as the unlicensed (in Canada) internet company does not have a server in Canada, there is nothing the Feds can do about it.

lamboguy

12-10-2008, 10:10 AM

you are 100% correct about canada. in this country they just haven't gone and prosecuted a "player" they have gone after money tranfer's and bookmakers that run operations offshore that live onshore.

i am sure that places like pinacle have agents that live onshore and pay and collect from their cutomers onshore. that seems like its circumventing the laws to me and those people could get into trouble by the feds.

as far as the guy that thinks that pinacle sports are angels, well i guess he hasn't been around the block to long. there is no such thing as a bookmaker loving to pay their cutomers money on a consistant basis. try betting house quinella's in vegas, or if it was such a profitable business how come vegas went 100% parimutual? why would they only want to earn 7% instead of up to 25%? the answer is as tought as it is to win as a player in horseracing, it is easy to do if you make non paramutuel bets.

i know that pinacle had a full list everyday on horse matchups, i know the mirage hotel in vegas used to have them. i wonder if they still have them.

let me give you an example how a guy can clean out a horsebook that books horses. just an example, steve asmussen has 300 different 2 yo's that start at racetracks every year. he knows some are better than others, but all his horses work in the same time, they all wear earplugs. don't you think he knows which are the ones that got more than they show in the morning? if the clockers don't know how good they are do you think he is going to tell anyone? if i was him i would be in vegas betting his horses against non-parimutual pools until the place says uncle. and if that was the real world i would be right behind him in line clocking every move he makes!

BIG49010

12-10-2008, 11:35 AM

This goes back a few years, in Vegas, they opened a horse racing book Sport of Kings, the sharpies cleaned their clock and it soon closed.

lamboguy

12-10-2008, 12:39 PM

DanG

12-10-2008, 12:53 PM

sport of kings was a great story. bill walter's aka "the computer" owned about 10% of the place with a group of englishmen as his partners.

every morning the place had about 200 people in line waiting for the doors of the sport of kings to open. all those people were placed in line by billy walters as his beards. he lost 10% of the money, but cleaned his partners out for the remaining. it took him aproxiamately 2 weeks to get them for $10million.

i honestly wonder how much he got this pinnacle sports for, and if it was him that got the money in that case.
It all depends on who you listen to with the Sport of Kings. I live there at that time and was told the serious hits against them were grossly exaggerated.

lamboguy

12-10-2008, 12:57 PM

if walters can beat steve wynn out of $3 million in a weekend on a roulette wheel in atlantic city, why can't he beat these guys from england out of that much money in 2 weeks?

lamboguy

12-10-2008, 01:05 PM

now that i remember, sport of kings took place after the gary austin fiasco where players were not paid on their winning tickets and his place closed up.

after that the nevada gaming commision came out with a law that a free-standing race and sports book had to have a minimum of $10 million capitalization in order to be granted a license.

isn't that how walter's sold the deal to the englishmen to begin with?

i remember i went to vegas to bet at the sport of kings, and it went parimutual the day after i got there!!!

Unome

12-10-2008, 08:49 PM

sport of kings was a great story. bill walter's aka "the computer" owned about 10% of the place with a group of englishmen as his partners.

every morning the place had about 200 people in line waiting for the doors of the sport of kings to open. all those people were placed in line by billy walters as his beards. he lost 10% of the money, but cleaned his partners out for the remaining. it took him aproxiamately 2 weeks to get them for $10million.

i honestly wonder how much he got this pinnacle sports for, and if it was him that got the money in that case.
Billy Walters did not own any mount of the old sport of kings but he did clean out the sportsbook there which was never suppose to be a liabilty just something to keep the horse players from leaving to make sports bets.The place was owned by the guy who use to own the Seattle Sonics who's name escapes me at this time.Not one part of your story is the truth but makes for some great fiction. :ThmbUp:

lamboguy

12-10-2008, 09:07 PM

i got the main owner as being a PETER GOLD from london england, a bookmaker that lived there at the time

lamboguy

12-10-2008, 09:12 PM

another thing, how in gods name could a guy that owns a basketball team own a race and sports book where they bet on nba basketball games?

lamboguy

12-10-2008, 09:34 PM

my friend from vegas also claims that walters didn't own the place either, but there were 5 guys from england that put up all the money, and walters just took it all away from them

Unome

12-10-2008, 10:14 PM

another thing, how in gods name could a guy that owns a basketball team own a race and sports book where they bet on nba basketball games?

I said he use to own :bang: and his name was Barry Ackerley he was the money behind Sport of Kings.

lamboguy

12-10-2008, 10:26 PM

so this guy akerly was the money man. wow, sounds kinda fishy to me. did he have his name on the license? was he an officer of the corporation? or was he just the "hidden" money man?

if you can produce anything on a written document, i will gladly donate $100 to your favorite charity. if you don't have one, mine is the salvation army. anything at all that has akerly's name on it!

trying2win

12-11-2008, 05:01 AM

That's too bad re PINNACLE SPORTS closing down the horse racing segment of their business. I liked using this racebook to make straight bets on tracks such as HOLLYWOOD PARK, and get a 5 % cash rebate for doing so.

Don't most racebooks have odds limits on what they'll pay out on straght bets and gimmicks? I don't recall seeing any odds limits signs at the PINNACLE SPORTS website in the past in their horse racing section. If so, maybe that's where they got burned by some shrewd bettors over time, especially on the some high-paying win 4s and superfectas for example.

Oh well, I can probably open up an account at CARIB SPORTS for betting the HOLLYWOOD PARK and SANTA ANITA races. They are a racebook that also pays a 5 % cash rebate on straight bets. That's better than many racebooks, who only offer a 3 % cash rebate for those making smaller straight bets.

T2W

lamboguy

12-11-2008, 09:05 AM

pinnacle had a cap on how much your total win could be on a single race per individual player. they took most of their horse action online. so often i would guess they didn't know what their exposure would be until after the event or in this case a race is complete.

if they had 10 indiviuals that came in on the exact same play all at once, that is how they could lose a bunch of money. i remember caps being on a southern california track $25,000 per race. i am not sure it was that high recently. also if you were betting a breeders cup or a kentucky derby they would extend their limits to $100,000. thats a lot of money you could make on a particular event where one might have had an edge in the odds.

i have taken alot of slack earlier on this thread about a legal entity that existed in las vegas years ago that lost $10 million in 2 weeks. pinnacle is or was much more capitalized than sport of kings was. they might have 1000 times more business as well. they get their wagers from all over the world, where sport of kings only got it from people sitting in their race book in las vegas.

american horse racing is popular right now all over the world. when you look at the betfair handles for racetracks like penn national and mountaineer, they are often larger than the on track racing handles with all the simulcast that goes on throughout the country. if pinacle could make money booking horses do you think they would close?

ryesteve

12-11-2008, 02:56 PM

Cangamble

12-11-2008, 03:19 PM

One thing I don't quite understand: if Pinnacle is pulling the plug because they're getting murdered, why wouldn't they cease taking action immediately? Why set a stop date that would expose them for another full week?
There is only one other reason, and that would be a legal one. But I don't see any indication that is the case as of yet.

nvemil

12-11-2008, 04:00 PM

There is only one other reason, and that would be a legal one. But I don't see any indication that is the case as of yet.From their site:

Please note:

Important Racing Announcement : Due to the various changes in the North American racing industry

Not a indication but maybe a hint ?

trying2win

12-11-2008, 06:00 PM

Even if I choose to open an account at another racebook, I still won't leave more than a few hundred dollars in it at anytime. At least that way, I'd miniimize my losses in case a racebook closed down all of a sudden.

T2W

startngate

12-12-2008, 11:33 AM

And, I would hear about how Pinnacle was laying off bets into the pools, etc.
....
Never believed a word of any of that.
...
Your post is without substance and frankly, it's a joke.rrbauer ... Pinnacle absolutely was laying bets off through the pools. I know several players that have intimate knowledge of what they were doing. They had the most sophisticated software platform in the world for doing this. They analyzed customer's play, sent the "winning" player's money through the pari-mutuel pools, booked the "losing" player's money, and on top of all of that, the most evil thing ... actually bet their own money behind their most successful players, thereby knocking down their prices.

with all due respect rrbauer, pinnacle is as classy an operation as there is offshore. but the guy that runs the place knows the horse business.with all due respect lambo, any operator that is betting behind its best customers and knocking down their prices is not a classy operation. They are without question pretty well run, but that is not the same as being classy.

as far as the guy that thinks that pinacle sports are angels, well i guess he hasn't been around the block to long.Not quite sure I understand this statement, you are the one that called them classy.

One thing I don't quite understand: if Pinnacle is pulling the plug because they're getting murdered, why wouldn't they cease taking action immediately? Why set a stop date that would expose them for another full week?It's probably because it's a contractual issue. My guess is they've either run out of places to lay off the money, or it's so difficult now to do so and it isn't profitable to just book the bets.

lamboguy

12-12-2008, 12:53 PM

when i said classy i was only kidding. these guys from pinacle are good to their mothers, they don't come home at night!

sorry for the confusion, often i like to be sarcastic

i wish more guys would sign up with ptc, they sure as hell try hard, and they know what they are doing

startngate

12-12-2008, 01:39 PM

Ah, the dreaded message board misread ... sorry mate!

:D

lurker

12-12-2008, 01:49 PM

Startngate is right. The other problem they have is that most of the players that they have left are sharp. Your average Joe doesn't have the connections to get in there any more. Remember that Pinnacle is a betting shop. If they can't go out and bet it then they won't book it. For example look at what they are currently taking in college hoop totals. $250 from me. Why? Because very few places are putting them up for them to play into.

cmoore

12-14-2008, 02:53 AM

The point is, that it is illegal...whether it has ever been prosecuted is not the issue. I live in a State that if you call the AG, or Horse Racing Commission, they will tell you, without a doubt, that Internet wagering is illegal, however, you can open a horse racing account with at least three (3) legitimate stateside ADW's in a heartbeat. I choose not to do this, as I don't want some Patrick Fitzgerald wannabe bureaucrat nosing around in my business, regardless how little chance there is for that to happen.

Ez

Who cares if it's illegal. I'll continue to bet overseas. Our government can kiss my a_ _. They need to focus on these crooks on wall street then some small time gamblers making chump change.

trying2win

12-14-2008, 09:20 PM

With Pinnacle Sports closing their horse racing section, I wonder where their customers are going to bet the horses? Anyone got a guess where they will migrate too to get some rebates....ADW'S like PTC, or LINK2BET...or any of the muiltitude of racebooks still available?

Remember to check out the fine print for limits on payouts, fees for deposits and withdrawals.

How is their variety and convenience of making bets online and/or telephone bets?

How is their selection of deposit and withdrawal methods?

How is their selection of racetracks?

What is their rebate schedule like for certain betting levels and/or racetracks?

How is their customer service? How is their reputation and reliability?

Maybe there are other things to consider as well that someone can add.

T2W
-----------------------------------------------------------------
~"The real boss is the customer. They pay for your salary and everything you own. If you don't please him or her, they will take their business elsewhere."

--Earl Nightingale

lurker

12-17-2008, 06:49 PM

They will migrate to other non pari-mutuel books. In general at this point there are no dumb customers at Pinnacle. After they got rid of the US post up business, the only way to play was on credit, The average Joe isn't going to have the contacts or go thru the hassle of playing there. So what is left is tough business. I know many large players who never place a bet that hits the pools.

startngate

12-18-2008, 05:02 PM

It's probably because it's a contractual issue. My guess is they've either run out of places to lay off the money, or it's so difficult now to do so and it isn't profitable to just book the bets.The conspiracy theorist in me is beginning to think the Pinnacle decision is directly related to the Hinsdale bankruptcy ... they filed on the same day Pinnacle cut off betting on North American Racing.

If that's the case, then I suspect Pinnacle was able to get all their money out, leaving the other players (like Beyer) holding the bag. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

lamboguy

12-18-2008, 05:08 PM

you know something startingate, you are pretty sharp. i gotta give you credit, i could have never figured that out myself. you know what they say birds of a feather flock together. in this case you have a swill with swill mariage, that just flocked.

rokitman

12-23-2008, 01:42 PM

The conspiracy theorist in me is beginning to think the Pinnacle decision is directly related to the Hinsdale bankruptcy ... they filed on the same day Pinnacle cut off betting on North American Racing.

If that's the case, then I suspect Pinnacle was able to get all their money out, leaving the other players (like Beyer) holding the bag. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Good work, Startn.

Anybody have any evidence of BetJamaica being "Losers Only?"

Howsabout 5Dimes?