Another Democratic governor screws up royally [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

PaceAdvantage

12-09-2008, 10:11 AM

You remember how the left on here loves to post about Republicans in trouble...well, looks like Democrats are playing catch-up....absolute power corrupts absolutely, or so they say....

Feds take Gov. Blagojevich into custody

December 9, 2008 at 8:39 AM | Comments (0) (http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2008/12/source-feds-take-gov-blagojevich-into-custody.html#comments)

UPDATE: Gov. Rod Blagojevich and his chief of staff John Harris were arrested today by FBI agents on federal corruption charges. More details to come.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2008/12/source-feds-take-gov-blagojevich-into-custody.html

ddog

12-09-2008, 10:27 AM

Very sad , no Pa , not the various corrupt bums , but the fact that you persist in seeing it all via your left/right decoder ring.

There is hope though, you still have time.

:)

boxcar

12-09-2008, 10:35 AM

Well...whaddya know? Mr. Culture of Corruption knows how to cross those aisles really well too, doesn't he?

And while on the subject of corruption, that crook Jefferson from Louisiana who hid his money in his icea boxa lost his bid to get re-elected by getting beat out by a Republican.

Ahh...Life is always good. Just that on some days, it's better than on others.

Boxcar

ddog

12-09-2008, 10:44 AM

fools, you don't even realize what your blind left/right is good/bad has done to this country.

Oh well, celebrate the race to the bottm, we are all corrupt now.

Hope you like it.

ArlJim78

12-09-2008, 11:00 AM

the same team that delivered Blago to the governership has also brought us Obama.

Tony Rezko, although you're sitting in a jail cell serving time for bribery and fraud, we salute you for your fine efforts.

Of course for Obama he just had to wave his magic wand, and say something like "that's not the Tony Rezko I knew" and everyone went along their merry way.

The Judge

12-09-2008, 11:03 AM

The governor stands with the Union and threatens to take Millions of Dollars out of Bank Of America and a 3 year old investigation comes to a end with his being indicted. A ready made issue.

Tom

12-09-2008, 11:09 AM

All Sara Palin ever sold was a jet! :lol:

Demografts. Ya gotta luv 'em!

ArlJim78

12-09-2008, 11:21 AM

The governor stands with the Union and threatens to take Millions of Dollars out of Bank Of America and a 3 year old investigation comes to a end with his being indicted. A ready made issue.

Do you really think Patrick Fitzgerald timed this in order to support Bank of America over the union? That story came to light only over the past 2-3 days.

rastajenk

12-09-2008, 11:29 AM

the same team that delivered Blago to the governership has also brought us Obama. Paging Kenneth Starr....Mr. Starr...paging Mr. Starr.... :D

DanG

12-09-2008, 12:17 PM

For those of you keeping a corruption scorecard at home it’s…

• Republicans: 19,645
• Democrats: 19,644

As Libertarians await the public awakening from its collective fog. ;)

ArlJim78

12-09-2008, 12:35 PM

A statement by U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald and FBI Special Agent-in-Charge Robert Grant said Blagojevich and Harris "allegedly conspired to sell U.S. Senate appointment, engaged in pay-to-play schemes and threatened to withhold state assistance to Tribune Company for Wrigley Field to induce (the) purge of newspaper editorial writers."

"The breadth of corruption laid out in these charges is staggering," Fitzgerald said in a statement.
______________________________

Unless you're from Chicago where it's business as usual.

Tom

12-09-2008, 12:41 PM

Throw in a bribery for a horse racing bill, and trying to take back 8 million dollars from a children's hospital because he didn't get his bribe..... this guy is a low as they go. He is a real dirt bag. Lots more should surface from this one.

Good reading in the Tribune tonight!

boxcar

12-09-2008, 12:56 PM

For those of you keeping a corruption scorecard at home it’s…

• Republicans: 19,645
• Democrats: 19,644

As Libertarians await the public awakening from its collective fog. ;)

I demand a recount. There's no way on this little green earth the Libertarians could be that squeaky clean.

Boxcar

lamboguy

12-09-2008, 12:56 PM

i have to agree with the US attourney on this one, good job. what is the diference of political parties when they are crooked.

you seem to think bush was so great because he protected us. he claimed to be a "compassionate conservetive". i think he was more liberal than any democrat i have ever seen. he was good if you a religious right or against abortion or robbing poor to give to the very wealthy. anything else he was a bum.

rastajenk

12-09-2008, 12:58 PM

Blago sounds like a real classy guy. (http://althouse.blogspot.com/2008/12/reading-****ing-criminal-complaint.html)

Hmmm....bad link....

It's in this blog. (http://althouse.blogspot.com/)

DanG

12-09-2008, 12:59 PM

I demand a recount. There's no way on this little green earth the Libertarians could be that squeaky clean.

Boxcar
:D
No doubt.

Bubba X

12-09-2008, 01:06 PM

Floyd

12-09-2008, 01:10 PM

From the indictment (http://media.nbcchicago.com/documents/rrb+-jh+FINAL+complaint+cover+and+aff.pdf) (78-page PDF):
In regards to the Senate seat, ROD BLAGOJEVICH stated “I’ve got this thing and it’s f---ing golden, and, uh, uh, I’m just not giving it up for f---in’ nothing. I’m not gonna do it. And, and I can always use it. I can parachute me there.”

...

ROD BLAGOJEVICH said that the consultants ... are telling him that he has to “suck it up” for two years and do nothing and give this “motherf---er [the President-elect] his senator. F---k him. For nothing? F---k him...they're not willing to give me anything except appreciation. F---k them."

Yup. Looks pretty bad for Obama.

Blagojevich has an impressive command of the English language... well, at least its Anglo-Saxon roots.

bigmack

12-09-2008, 01:21 PM

From what I understand the reason they had to arrest him now was that he was about to sell the Senate seat held by BO to the highest bidder. :jump:

A Gov'na crime spree? We haven't seen the likes of this since Governor William J. Le Petomane.

http://lee.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/blazingsaddles.jpg

delayjf

12-09-2008, 01:52 PM

but the fact that you persist in seeing it all via your left/right decoder ring.

Ddog,

You might not be aware, but a thread was started sometime ago specifically addressing Republican scandals - so from that perspective, what comes around goes around.

I don't care what their party affiliation any political crooks need to go to jail. What will be interesting to see is, to what extent if any, it reflects upon Obama.

Tom

12-09-2008, 02:39 PM

The thing is, the repubs usually banish their crooks. The dems circle the wagons around theirs.

JustRalph

12-09-2008, 02:41 PM

I just heard on the radio that this thing was shut down when the Prostitutor found out a call had been recorded that went straight to Rahm Emanuel............

Is this the same prostitutor that was after Scooter Libby?

Floyd

12-09-2008, 03:00 PM

"Other than breaking the law, (http://prorev.com/2008/12/flotsam-jetsam-as-bribes-go-blagojevich.html) Rod Blagojevich's two biggest problems are that he's a piker and he's dumb. Over the past couple of years, both John McCain and Barack Obama accepted far larger bribes than the Illinois governor allegedly did, but they did it the smart way: by inference rather than by tapped phone. This is why we find the Congress so speedy in bailing out Wall Street and so indifferent to the fate of auto workers."

JustRalph

12-09-2008, 03:31 PM

Once Again...........it's Bushies Fault.......He did it........

They are also celebrating Barack Obama for "not playing ball" with the Governor and giving him credit for taking care of corruption in ILL. I am wondering what else is on the wiretap tapes.

This stuff kills me.............. :lol: :lol:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4617763

ArlJim78

12-09-2008, 03:57 PM

they said the govenor was on a "crime spree". haha
how often do you hear that?

as a criminal though, he is one of the dumbest to come along.

slewis

12-09-2008, 04:00 PM

After the Feds are done with this investigatation maybe they should have a look at our lame duck President and his link to big Oil companies.

Start with an explanation of how Gas prices go from $2.00 to over $4.00 in less then one yr, then mysteriously back down to under $2.00 just prior to his leaving office. If this isn't a clear case of price manipulation, then one doesn't exist.
Funny watching the news networks with their "energy experts" saying thet this is a case of "supply and demand" and how a heavily industrialized China has pushed prices skyhigh (in a one yr period, what a joke).
Oh, wait, I forgot.... the world economy is so bad now that demand has dropped causing the crash in oil prices.

I also heard 111 million chinese are going green and riding there bicycles again.

What a joke.......

JustRalph

12-09-2008, 04:05 PM

ArlJim78

12-09-2008, 04:25 PM

Bush manipulating oil prices? that's a real kneeslapper.:lol:

wasn't he last seen groveling at the feet of the Saudis begging them to boost production to get the price down. they gave him the cold shoulder.

Show Me the Wire

12-09-2008, 04:45 PM

Obama might make history by being the first President arrested while in office. Remember Obama's political roots are in this organization of Rezco, as is the soon to be former Governor.

delayjf

12-09-2008, 04:48 PM

Start with an explanation of how Gas prices go from $2.00 to over $4.00 in less then one yr, then mysteriously back down to under $2.00 just prior to his leaving office
Why drop the prices before leaving office?? Why not just leave them up there and cash in. He has got to be making a killing in the real estate market as well. I hope he never takes an interest in horseracing. Can you imagine the pick sixes he could pull down? Not bad for a rutabaga – this guy is laughing (all the way to the bank) at the superior intellect of the left. :rolleyes:

Floyd

12-09-2008, 05:03 PM

"At the Illinois State Fair in August 2006, (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/12/questions-arise.html) Obama spoke on Blagojevich's behalf.

"We've got a governor in Rod Blagojevich who has delivered consistently on behalf of the people of Illinois," Obama told the crowd."

Yes, yes he has. Delivered what, however, remains to be seen.

wonatthewire1

12-09-2008, 05:04 PM

Looks like Vito got off pretty easy, though

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/rep_vito_fossella_gets_fiveday.html

Doesn't say anything on his love child though, I hope he can keep up with the child support payments now that he's out of a job...

slewis

12-09-2008, 05:05 PM

Wow! Prez. Bush can manipulate the oil markets huh?

In a thread on Dem Corruption in Chicago, you pull this out? I enjoy reading some of your stuff on horse racing, but come on?

My point is precisely that. I've stated this before... makes no difference this day and age what side of the fence your on.. the corruption is rampant.

And yes, I'm convinced the president can manipulate the price of gas in this country especially one with strong ties to Oil and gas..... he did it to perfection.

Unless someone can explain how "world supply" over the last 2 months dropped so severly that the price halved, I'm sticking with what I know from what I learned trading in world markets. Markets move in two ways: Supply and demand and manipulation. In the case of gas prices in this country, I choose to believe the latter.
I would bet that if you took a survey of people in the US and asked them over the last six months if their driving habits changed significantly, it would be a very very small percentage and a slightly greater percentage might say a marginal change, with most saying no change at all.
So with the upcoming demand for heating oil, how is the price halved, not down 10 or 15%, halved!!!!!!! To quote you: "Come on now".
Answer: Manipulation.

OTM Al

12-09-2008, 05:20 PM

Prices can be manipulated, but I don't think in the way you mean. Prices are based on belief. If people believe that there is going to be a war, for instance, then people would believe that things like gas would get shorter in supply and then would react as if it was true. This would happen on both sides of the market. Thus, price changes will happen even before the event happens, if it happens at all. I seem to recall some people were charging the government with just such manipulation with their orange alert announcements that would just pop up a few years back, but I don't think anyone could truely correlate them with energy price fluctuations.

To show such price manipulation, you would need to point to leaks or information releases coming from the government that would cause the markets to form beliefs and thus cause changes in the prices. If you can do that, there's a Pulitzer waiting for you I'm sure. The flip side of this is if you cry wolf too often, when the wolf shows up, no one will believe you.

Steve 'StatMan'

12-09-2008, 05:33 PM

My God! He tried to shake down Childrens Memorial Hospital!!!!

FOR shame% = 1 to 100
:(
NEXT shame%

wonatthewire1

12-09-2008, 05:59 PM

...someone asked...yes it is the same prosecutor involved with the Palme/Libby case - dude is a pitbull - :lol:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081209/ap_on_go_ot/illinois_governor_fitzgerald

bigmack

12-09-2008, 06:24 PM

I think it was Pat Buchanan who said, 'You get a middle-aged, unmarried, Irish Catholic against you and you're in deep doodoo'.

ddog

12-09-2008, 06:32 PM

Ddog,

You might not be aware, but a thread was started sometime ago specifically addressing Republican scandals - so from that perspective, what comes around goes around.

I don't care what their party affiliation any political crooks need to go to jail. What will be interesting to see is, to what extent if any, it reflects upon Obama.

Jd

I am sure the threads are out there. You kind of make my point in that you are still qualifiying them as if that matters.

I maintain it doesn't.

I have read the FBI doc and other than Blogo being a complete idiot in that he lays it out on the phone do NOT DOUBT that the "dealings" are not standard practice.

They are.

Most people are a little more circumspect in the "dealings".

You will hear all the talking heads and apologists for the "system" come out now and wail and moan about how this is all just so unreal, and we are SHOCKED SHOCKED that this goes on in the "system" and those that play in it are REALLY much better than this.

And , You will believe it, what choice do you have.
There will be the obligatory , DC crap about how is bama involved and on and on.

Meanwhile the problems at the core that bring this about will go on as normal. No change other than who the checks are written to.

This and more , much more to come is exactly how a banana republic works.

P.S. I spend a lot of time in Chicago and everytime I drove under one of those Blogovich - Governor signs i wanted to puke.

What a slime.

Death by hanging once convicted.

delayjf

12-09-2008, 06:34 PM

And yes, I'm convinced the president can manipulate the price of gas in this country especially one with strong ties to Oil and gas..... he did it to perfection.

Assuming you're right and the markets were manipulated - what makes you so sure President Bush is behind the manipulation. What proof do you have?

lamboguy

12-09-2008, 06:44 PM

of course this is as sick at it gets. these guys work for you and they payoff to get a senate seat. what in gods name do you think that guy is gonna do with that senate seat anyway? i am getting real good at answering my own questions these days, he is gonna ream you and beam you and take as much money away from you as he possibly can.

it goes along with society in general, first the bankers steal you money, they can't steal it fast enough so go parabolic doing it, they get caught up in their own thievery and need a bailout from the people they stole from originally.

a car manufacturer makes a car that cost them $3500 to make if that much and sell it for $36000 to you. they go bad and need you to keep them going so they can steal more money from you.

i go bad at the track, i can't get cab fare, what kind of a world do we live in anyway?

ddog

12-09-2008, 07:07 PM

HUSKER55

12-09-2008, 07:50 PM

What we need is to call political corruption what it is: TREASON.

Politicians who get indicted should be be banned until cleared. Traitors should be shot and I don't care which side of the aisle you are on.

Guys, our government has run amuck. These guys are crooks and thieves. Why are you willing to let them off the hooK?

Look at past presidential pardons and "oversights". These people robbed you and you say pass the vasaline?

If you think I am wrong then how do you intend to correct the problem?

When you set pricked by a rose bush the first step to recovery is to remove the thorn on a very permanent basis.

slewis

12-09-2008, 08:01 PM

Assuming you're right and the markets were manipulated - what makes you so sure President Bush is behind the manipulation. What proof do you have?

Delay, are you serious?

Did you ever hear the term "beyond reasonable doubt"?

That's my stand..... Beyond reasonable doubt.

delayjf

12-10-2008, 03:00 PM

Yes I am serious, again, what proof do you have that President Bush is behind the speculation that you claim is wholly responsible for the price of gas going up this summer.

If all you have is President Bush was once in the oil business and the price of oil has gone up under his administration then all you have (IMO) is unfounded suspicion based on past association - which does not amount to reasonable doubt.

Tom

12-10-2008, 03:15 PM

Reasonable doubt about someone's sanity, maybe. :rolleyes:;)

Bush can control the price of oil word-wide, huh.
Does he use that hurricane machine of his to do that? :lol:

riskman

12-10-2008, 03:43 PM

by the way, i NOW believe that the best outcome to the empty seat is that he should appoint himself NOW and move on in.

Blogo has shown he fits and has demonstrated the qualities that will put him in good standing in dc.

I expect he would be reelected in two years.

"A political corruption crime spree", you don't hear that everyday!

ddog-You are being much too realistic. The Gov. deserves to cash in on the Senate seat.. He claims he needs to make money.Perhaps the state could hold a public auction --the highest bidder if qualified under the constitution gets the seat.The Gov. would get a commision and a get out of jail free card. Or maybe E-Bay or a Pay Per View deal. How sweet it is !!!!!

slewis

12-10-2008, 05:49 PM

Reasonable doubt about someone's sanity, maybe. :rolleyes:;)

Bush can control the price of oil word-wide, huh.
Does he use that hurricane machine of his to do that? :lol:

Bush can have an effect on world prices to a small degree (we have influence over Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.
But, he doesn't need to control the price worldwide, only the manipulated price in the USA, and it is MUCH MUCH easier to manipulate upward then downward.
Do you think Oil and Gas prices are relatively the same in the USA compared to other major countries around the world?

Back in the mid 90's I was traveling to London on business. I was amazed how much gas costs in England (and Europe in general) compared to here.

Gov't's can control the prices of any commodity in their respective countries ON AN UPWARD BASIS, especially if it were in their interests to do so.

Laugh all you want. I guess your gullible enough to believe this world /China demand thing, and how it's mysteriously disapated in the last two months causing the price to drop in HALF!. :lol:

Look at a graph of oil prices over the last five yrs, then look at manufacturing output in these countries that supposedly created this insatiable demand.

The numbers dont reflect such a steep increase. My theory regarding this current administration and their ties to big oil companies (who's the guy on the board of Haliburton?) makes alot more sense and the increase, then subsequent drop in cadence with this administration departing are too much of a coincedence.

I'd be more then interested in hearing anyone's explanation as to why this drop suddenly took place over the last month.

delayjf

12-10-2008, 07:28 PM

Back in the mid 90's I was traveling to London on business. I was amazed how much gas costs in England (and Europe in general) compared to here.
That's due to the taxes Europe imposes on their Gas. The entire world pays the same for oil on the open market at any given time. The price of gas has been higher in Europe long before President Bush took office. How does the higher price of oil in Europe prove President Bush is behind oil speculation? You are also not factoring in the increase requirements in India and other countries.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/12/10/worldoil.ap/

Heres one article that talks about increased demand from 2004.

Tom

12-10-2008, 07:52 PM

Talk to Donald Trump - he was predicting this a couple of months ago.

slewis

12-10-2008, 08:58 PM

That's due to the taxes Europe imposes on their Gas. The entire world pays the same for oil on the open market at any given time. The price of gas has been higher in Europe long before President Bush took office. How does the higher price of oil in Europe prove President Bush is behind oil speculation? You are also not factoring in the increase requirements in India and other countries.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/12/10/worldoil.ap/

Heres one article that talks about increased demand from 2004.

Thanks Delay,

Trust me, I am very aware of how our global markets work.

Without trying to be a smartass, all countries do not pay the same price as each other.
I've read theories regarding emerging countries increased energy demands, I still insist that they are nowhere inline with the spike we have seen in prices AND these demand increases dont go away in a 3 mo. period where prices get HALVED!.

There is manipulation and gouging occuring. I'm looking toward the White House.
It's MY only logical conclusion... Like I stated to Tom in my opinion it's beyond reasonable doubt.

We will agree to disagree.

JustRalph

12-11-2008, 01:25 AM

back to the subject of the thread

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/12/10/blagojevichs-big-conference-call-and-valerie-jarretts-clean-break/?mod=blog

try reading this article. It makes me question why the prosecutor moved when he did.................????

very interesting........ I want to know who was on this phone call............

PaceAdvantage

12-11-2008, 03:35 AM

For those of you keeping a corruption scorecard at home it’s…

• Republicans: 19,645
• Democrats: 19,644

As Libertarians await the public awakening from its collective fog. ;)That's not how it was presented on this board the last eight years, and that's certainly how it wasn't presented by the media in the months leading up to the election.

I know damn well that both sides are as dirty as they come. I do find it amusing though that ddog saves his "they're all dirty" lecture just for me and any other guy posting about dirty Dems....I don't quite recall him posting the same retort to ljb, hcap, Secretariat or Suff when they would post about dirty Repubs...

Maybe I was on vacation those days...

PaceAdvantage

12-11-2008, 03:39 AM

PaceAdvantage

12-11-2008, 03:45 AM

Look at a graph of oil prices over the last five yrs, then look at manufacturing output in these countries that supposedly created this insatiable demand.

The numbers dont reflect such a steep increase. My theory regarding this current administration and their ties to big oil companies (who's the guy on the board of Haliburton?) makes alot more sense and the increase, then subsequent drop in cadence with this administration departing are too much of a coincedence.

I'd be more then interested in hearing anyone's explanation as to why this drop suddenly took place over the last month.Haven't you ever heard of irrational exuberance? I know that you have....

Remember the 1637 Holland Tulip craze, the Technology bubble of the late 90s, housing bubble the last few years....and now the great oil bubble, that many of us predicted would burst soon enough, as all bubbles do....

Supply and demand was only a part of the rise and fall, but you know this...why are you only talking about supply and demand, as if that is the only thing that ever rules any market? Come on man...these are human beings we are talking about....human traders....the most irrational beings on the planet.

Speculators are what drove up the price of oil to insane levels, and the mad dash of speculation towards the exits once "Drill Baby Drill" got started in earnest is what brought the price crashing down. Check out what happened to the price of oil once serious talk of increased off shore drilling by the US started...in my opinion this was the main catalyst for the drop.

The huge price rise was a combination of irrational speculation, China, potential war with Iran and wacky peak oil theories that surface every now and then....

I'll stop now and take a breath.

ddog

12-11-2008, 03:56 AM

That's not how it was presented on this board the last eight years, and that's certainly how it wasn't presented by the media in the months leading up to the election.

I know damn well that both sides are as dirty as they come. I do find it amusing though that ddog saves his "they're all dirty" lecture just for me and any other guy posting about dirty Dems....I don't quite recall him posting the same retort to ljb, hcap, Secretariat or Suff when they would post about dirty Repubs...

Maybe I was on vacation those days...

I find it amsuing you are tracking this?
Don't you realize that there is no reason to post about dirty dims, that was concluded around 1968 or so case closed.
You know what they say, You only h :eek: urt the ones you love(d).

PaceAdvantage

12-11-2008, 03:58 AM

I find it amsuing you are tracking this?If tracking is using your brain to recall certain memories, then ok...I'm tracking....

ddog

12-11-2008, 04:00 AM

I actually think I have a picture of Bush sitting in front of his Interactive Brokers' screen pushing the BUY CL button repeatedly from an account linked to the Federal Reserve...let me see if I can dig it up for you.

:lol:

What am doing here anyway and why did this strike me as funny?

I guess it had something to do with just finishing the watching of that Kashkari clown in the hearing today.

What a mess we have made.
I am sorry I ever thought the AIG backstop needed to be done, even though it may have needed to be done, we shouldn't have done it.

ddog

12-11-2008, 04:04 AM

If tracking is using your brain to recall certain memories, then ok...I'm tracking....

I will concentrate and try to catch up, i expect plenty of chances with the Chicago Blogo-gate deal.

more later.

Tom

12-11-2008, 07:42 AM

This just in: Bush is controlling the roulette wheels in Vegas.

rastajenk

12-11-2008, 08:17 AM

No, he's just a puppet for larger, darker forces, remember? He's just a rutabaga, too dumb to string a few words together to make a sentence, smart enough to control market forces. Unusual dichotomy he's got going on there, wouldn't you agree?

slewis

12-11-2008, 10:09 AM

Haven't you ever heard of irrational exuberance? I know that you have....

Remember the 1637 Holland Tulip craze, the Technology bubble of the late 90s, housing bubble the last few years....and now the great oil bubble, that many of us predicted would burst soon enough, as all bubbles do....

Supply and demand was only a part of the rise and fall, but you know this...why are you only talking about supply and demand, as if that is the only thing that ever rules any market? Come on man...these are human beings we are talking about....human traders....the most irrational beings on the planet.

Speculators are what drove up the price of oil to insane levels, and the mad dash of speculation towards the exits once "Drill Baby Drill" got started in earnest is what brought the price crashing down. Check out what happened to the price of oil once serious talk of increased off shore drilling by the US started...in my opinion this was the main catalyst for the drop.

The huge price rise was a combination of irrational speculation, China, potential war with Iran and wacky peak oil theories that surface every now and then....

I'll stop now and take a breath.

PA,

Excellent rational. I agree 100% Where we diaagreeis as follows:

I personally think that what you mentioned above probably accounts for 10-20% of market movement.... AT MOST.

I'm sticking with my theory on the majority and timing of this movement.

delayjf

12-11-2008, 11:44 AM

I'm not saying the markets were or were not manipulated - just that you have not presented anything other than a belief that President Bush is behind the manipulation.

I'm sticking with my theory on the majority and timing of this movement.
How is the timing of the Gas bubble burst benefical to President Bush? Again if his whole purpose in the Wh was to make money off of oil, why not jack the prices up at the start of his second term. Also, the high price of gas was no help to the Republicans in this election. And aren't they the party of big business??

ArlJim78

12-11-2008, 01:46 PM

I'm not saying the markets were or were not manipulated - just that you have not presented anything other than a belief that President Bush is behind the manipulation.

How is the timing of the Gas bubble burst benefical to President Bush? Again if his whole purpose in the Wh was to make money off of oil, why not jack the prices up at the start of his second term. Also, the high price of gas was no help to the Republicans in this election. And aren't they the party of big business??
you're are asking too much if you expect a conspiracy theory to actually be explained and make sense.

PaceAdvantage

12-11-2008, 06:14 PM

I personally think that what you mentioned above probably accounts for 10-20% of market movement.... AT MOST.Just so I'm clear, do you maintain that Bush's actions while in office (Iraq being a major catalyst for the initial rise in oil prices) were specifically crafted in order to boost up the price of oil?

lamboguy

12-11-2008, 06:22 PM

slewis

12-11-2008, 06:54 PM

Just so I'm clear, do you maintain that Bush's actions while in office (Iraq being a major catalyst for the initial rise in oil prices) were specifically crafted in order to boost up the price of oil?

PA,

No.

I dont think the Iraq war was an oil-first agenda for Bush. I think he believed that the Iraqi's would embrace us in a similar manner Kuwaitis did.
Had that happened, I think he felt it would give us another oil producing country in the region that we would have significant influence over, along with that oil.
This influence keeps countries like Russia and Venezuela somewhat in check regarding world oil prices. I think Cheney had more of an agenda regarding oil in the Iraq, but I think the main reason for Bush's actions in Iraq were to finish what he felt his dad didn't. Now let me make this clear. I said "didn't", not "couldn't", because his dad could have easily moved in and conquered.
Personally PA, I think he (Bush W.)knew there were no WMD's (all top intellegence was reporting that) but he felt he could change the dynamics of the region and put in a Democratic Gov't in Iraq and create peace in the region..and go down in history as the man who changed the mid-east.
A very noble plan.
Problem is, when you make a decision to do what he did, you'd better plan for ALL possibilities. He had an INCREDIBLE game plan from a military standpoint, and NO game plan thereafter, which is why we are in this mess.
When you go in and conquer another country, and their citizens dont cooperate COMPLETELY with your (our agenda) you'd better be prepared to take an awful lot of civillians lives, even with the world up in arms about it.
(Ever wonder why Mutada Al-Sadr is still breathing?)
What did we accomplish there? Iraqis hate us, and the next generation will hate us more.
I've asked "pro-surge" people on this forum to "define victory in Iraq".
For me, anything short of a full Democratic-pro US-Israel - friendly Govt is a complete waste of American lives and resources.

slewis

12-11-2008, 07:02 PM

you guys are giving bush to much credit. he was a dope, and the guys around him were no genius's either. if he could craft up this ingenious plan to devoid the american's out of all their money he would have been caught by now. he was just plain dumb.

Lambo,

I think you're right about Bush.. but dead wrong about those around him.

Karl Rove is one of the most intelligent men I've ever seen. Cheney is no fool either. These guys are as calculating and brilliant as they come.

Rumsfield I think we can all agree is a clown. Rice is very bright but isn't a match-fit for Rove and Cheney.

delayjf

12-11-2008, 08:00 PM

I think he (Bush W.)knew there were no WMD's (all top intellegence was reporting that)
I believe it was just the opposite, that's not to say ALL the intelligence indicated he had WMD's.

bigmack

12-11-2008, 08:51 PM

I don't know if this thread is still about the title but...

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/12_11_08_17_44_51.png

This guy, John Wyma, has been tightly alongside Blago since '02 and has been in with the Feds for years, witnessing payoffs galore.

What takes G-Men so long to bring a case to justice? Were they waiting to see how many charges they could stick him with? In any event, he'll be singin' like a canary in no time.

slewis

12-11-2008, 08:57 PM

I believe it was just the opposite, that's not to say ALL the intelligence indicated he had WMD's.

Delay,

Even if your correct, Iraq was not (yet) even remotely close to being the kind of threat that warranted a military response. I also think Bush thought he'd relinguish power peacefully once the UN voted for force.

Damn.. we just lost 3000 American lives playing referee, (compared to less then 100 in the original combat) spent a shitload of money and tied up resources... Call me a greedy Yank but I expect a better result then what we have now.

rastajenk

12-11-2008, 11:36 PM

How bout we just call you clueless?

PaceAdvantage

12-12-2008, 02:17 AM

How bout we just call you clueless?Now this was uncalled for...and probably should have been deleted, but I'm in a free speech sort of mood at this late hour.

PaceAdvantage

12-12-2008, 02:20 AM

PA,

No.

I dont think the Iraq war was an oil-first agenda for Bush.It seems to me that gasoline prices in the USA have risen and fallen in concert with the price of oil on the world markets....this I think we can agree on...

Yet, a few posts back, you state that Bush has manipulated the price of oil/gas here in the USA....how so exactly, in your opinion? That's what I'm trying to get at...

Tom

12-12-2008, 07:34 AM

Under $40 today.

The Judge

12-12-2008, 08:09 AM

because people stopped driving. The roads were clear you could zip across town in 5 minutes. the price of gas was so high that we wouldn't pay that price no matter what the world was willing to pay.

Parking tickets in San Francisco are so high that people are now being very careful and are getting less tickets even thou their are more enforment officers then ever. To make more money they will have to sooner or later lower the price of tickets.

rastajenk

12-12-2008, 08:10 AM

Now this was uncalled for...and probably should have been deleted, but I'm in a free speech sort of mood at this late hour.
You're right...my bad. Sorry.

slewis

12-12-2008, 05:44 PM

It seems to me that gasoline prices in the USA have risen and fallen in concert with the price of oil on the world markets....this I think we can agree on...

Yet, a few posts back, you state that Bush has manipulated the price of oil/gas here in the USA....how so exactly, in your opinion? That's what I'm trying to get at...

PA,

I stated that world market conditions, in my opinion accounted for maybe a 10-20% legitimate increase in demand and that the rest was inexplicable. Therefore, it is my opinion that this administration, with their heavy ties to BIG OIL were behind the ridiculous movement we saw in the USA.....
and they cashed big time.

http://www.whatgas.com/pricegraph.aspx?FuelIDX=1
I cant believe I'm wasting valueable handicapping time doing college level research, but here is a graph of gas prices in the UK over the same period we are talking. Notice the move in the UK (pence per litre) shows roughly a 20%- 25% increase. Here in the USA we had a 110% INCREASE!!!!!!!

Research shows that around July 25th was the peak price throughout the world.

Do the Brits (by the way the rest of the EU's charts are similar) get their petrol in the open market cheaper then we????

The prices in the UK and ALL major countries should have increased on a similar percentage basis as the USA .. but they did not.(I'll build in 10% for whatever)

Now if you can get through to Mr. Chaney in Washington, he might fumble through some BS but in my opinion... he and the boys hit the super, and took down the pool.

Next, PA.. thanks for scolding rastajerk for calling me clueless...
I lost 1.3 seconds of sleep last night.
Uhh Rasta...after looking at these charts... how ya left mon??

bigmack

12-12-2008, 06:40 PM

Notice the move in the UK (pence per litre) shows roughly a 20%- 25% increase. Here in the USA we had a 110% INCREASE!!!!!!!
Might it have something to do with the fact that on average they pay twice as much for petrol as we do? I don't know what it is now but my brother was in London a few months back and it was $6+/gal US.

If they were asked to pay $10-12/gal you'd have the hoi polloi up in arms.

slewis

12-12-2008, 06:55 PM

Might it have something to do with the fact that on average they pay twice as much for petrol as we do? I don't know what it is now but my brother was in London a few months back and it was $6+/gal US.

If they were asked to pay $10-12/gal you'd have the hoi polloi up in arms.

The reason they pay so much is the VAT tax added, along with other taxes.

It's immaterial in this arguement because we're comparing the PERCENTAGE increases vs the price per barrel increase on the world market during the period of alleged manipulation of USA prices.

bigmack

12-12-2008, 07:05 PM

The reason they pay so much is the VAT tax added, along with other taxes.

It's immaterial in this arguement because we're comparing the PERCENTAGE increases vs the price per barrel increase on the world market during the period of alleged manipulation of USA prices.
You're telling me that in many European nations as much as 75% of the total cost of gas is in taxes and you think it's immaterial in explaining how they went up far less than we?

It makes perfect sense.

delayjf

12-12-2008, 08:01 PM

Slewis,

You make an interesting point. I will have to look into that.

an INCREDIBLE game plan from a military standpoint, and NO game plan thereafter, which is why we are in this mess.
Actually, they did have a game plan, it just didn't work. They attempted to minimise the US presence in Iraq for political reasons. They also made assumptions that turned out to be wrong. In that respect they deserve the critisims.

The real issue as to why we went into Iraq dealt more with the possibility of Saddam allowing WMD to get into the hands of Terrorists. The question became, given the recent attacks by terrorists in the US, can we take the chance that Saddam does not have a WMD capabilility that could possibly find their way into the hands of Terrorists. After 9/11 President Bush decided we could no longer take that chance.

slewis

12-12-2008, 08:30 PM

You're telling me that in many European nations as much as 75% of the total cost of gas is in taxes and you think it's immaterial in explaining how they went up far less than we?

It makes perfect sense.

Are you serious?

I'm not going to insult you sir, but I will tell you to research UK gas prices. You can get a complete historical breakdown if you try. You will find that the percentages (taxes vs refine costs) remain relatively the same and the graphs show small percentage differences as the Brit Gov't might have adjusted VAT taxes over the last decade.
IN THIS DEBATE IT IS NEGLIGABLE. Is that a better word for you?
Graph both gas prices over the last year and ours SKYROCKETED where theirs moved more along the line of what I would have expected in a "panicky" market ((20-25%) increase/decrease).

slewis

12-12-2008, 08:39 PM

Slewis,

You make an interesting point. I will have to look into that.

Actually, they did have a game plan, it just didn't work. They attempted to minimise the US presence in Iraq for political reasons. They also made assumptions that turned out to be wrong. In that respect they deserve the critisims.

The real issue as to why we went into Iraq dealt more with the possibility of Saddam allowing WMD to get into the hands of Terrorists. The question became, given the recent attacks by terrorists in the US, can we take the chance that Saddam does not have a WMD capabilility that could possibly find their way into the hands of Terrorists. After 9/11 President Bush decided we could no longer take that chance.

Delay Delay Delay...... Tell you what.
You make a GREAT point about 9/11 and not taking chances.
I dont want anymore chances either. But Sadam couldnt hurt us if he tried (or he would have).
So lets call a spade a spade ..
If we all care about homeland security so much WHY DONT WE SECURE THE BORDERS? Why are there people STILL in this country who dont belong here?
You tell me where priority REALLY should lie? ..Saddam, 12,000 miles away or a dozen terrorists marching accross the border where a sign should read :Welcome to the USA... come work here undocumented, come rob and kill our citizens, use our resources, no one will ask you to leave, pay no taxes, buy a house...etc, etc....
You know what Delay?.. you and I are on the same page... you just have the spanish version!

bigmack

12-12-2008, 10:04 PM

Are you serious?
I'm not going to insult you sir, but I will tell you to research UK gas prices.
Look Professor, you made the following statement:
20%- 25% increase. Here in the USA we had a 110% INCREASE!!!!!!!

I assume you tossed in 7 exclamaition marks because you were in some delusion land of thinking you were comparing apples to apples.

What % of the price of gas in the UK is just tax? Wrong, it's 70%. So, for every gal they pay $6.50, $4.50 is in taxes. (gal/dol scale)

Now, how much of every gallon here is in taxes? Wrong, .46 That's fourty-six cents!!!!!!!

So, the increase in a barrel of oil affects 30% of the pump price of gas in the UK and an increase in a barrel of oil affects about 80+% here. And you're trying to school me?

Them ain't apples to apples. You dig?

boxcar

12-12-2008, 10:55 PM

If we all care about homeland security so much WHY DONT WE SECURE THE BORDERS? Why are there people STILL in this country who dont belong here?

For someone who thinks he's the sharpest tool in the shed, how can you not see the obvious? The borders aren't secure because too many treasonous liberals are keenly interested in building a new constituency -- expanding their base to include all the illegal aliens who will be beholding to them for championing their cause by eventually getting them amnesty -- and, of course, their God-given right to be here in the first place!

Boxcar
P.S. It's called buying votes.

slewis

12-12-2008, 11:36 PM

For someone who thinks he's the sharpest tool in the shed, how can you not see the obvious? The borders aren't secure because too many treasonous liberals are keenly interested in building a new constituency -- expanding their base to include all the illegal aliens who will be beholding to them for championing their cause by eventually getting them amnesty -- and, of course, their God-given right to be here in the first place!

Boxcar
P.S. It's called buying votes.

He he he he.... Hint: Unless the VAT tax in the UK changes, or the Fed /state taxes change in the US during this comparison, (and those changes would need to be significant) the the ONLY variable is the price of oil which is supposed to directly effect the price at the pump.
The movement on a percentage basis was far greater here in the US then in Europe.. what dont you get? We had a 100% swing upwards, and now a 50% swing down. THAT HAS NOT BEEN REFLECTED IN EUROPE, not even close!!!
I choose to blame the current administration.. who makes no secret about being in the OIL business.. in TEXAS you know, the state that does oil, you know heavy republican, that allows cheap labor to move accross it's borders freely.
Now

To address this thread :The dems agenda is freedom for people they think have a "right" to be here... But Republicans are BIG TIME supporters of this cheap labor for big business and dont deny it. So guess what? Both sides have sold us out. ... as usual.

boxcar

12-13-2008, 12:29 AM

He he he he.... Hint: Unless the VAT tax in the UK changes, or the Fed /state taxes change in the US during this comparison, (and those changes would need to be significant) the the ONLY variable is the price of oil which is supposed to directly effect the price at the pump.
The movement on a percentage basis was far greater here in the US then in Europe.. what dont you get? We had a 100% swing upwards, and now a 50% swing down. THAT HAS NOT BEEN REFLECTED IN EUROPE, not even close!!!
I choose to blame the current administration.. who makes no secret about being in the OIL business.. in TEXAS you know, the state that does oil, you know heavy republican, that allows cheap labor to move accross it's borders freely.
Now

To address this thread :The dems agenda is freedom for people they think have a "right" to be here... But Republicans are BIG TIME supporters of this cheap labor for big business and dont deny it. So guess what? Both sides have sold us out. ... as usual.

It's not that "both sides" have sold us out as much as all Libs of all party stripes have. Liberalism is a malignant cancer that has no respect or regard for the party labels of Republican, Democrat or Independent. It will seek to devour anyone who lets its ugly nose under the tent.

Boxcar
P.S. George Bush is as about conservative as Colin Powell. :rolleyes:

boxcar

12-13-2008, 12:41 AM

Boris

12-13-2008, 08:41 AM

This is great. Very rarely will you see the Dems abandon one of their own. Far more often than not, they're out making excuses and throwing blocks for one of their fallen comrades. One is gotta wonder if the reason they're so willing and eager to sacrifice this big fish is to try to save an even bigger one.

Boxcar

You forgot to yell BINGO!

I thought it a little strange that liberal politicians and media folk lined up against this guy on day 1. I was flipping back and forth between MSNBC and FOX during prime time when this broke. Matthews, Olbernuts, and Richard Maddow slapped the Gov around for at least half their show, way longer than FOX. And then again every night since. Dems don't usually behave that way. Name the last Dem that was forced to walk the plank?

ArlJim78

12-13-2008, 08:59 AM

Blago should have a chance to clear his good name. He hasn't been proven guilty of anything. Its horrible how the Dem's are rushing to judgement on him. What about due process?

My dream is that he gives in to the calls to step down from the governorship, BY APPOINTING HIMSELF SENATOR! He belongs up there with people like Barney Frank and Charlie Rangel.

Hang in there Blago! Don't give up the fight.:D

Tom

12-13-2008, 10:09 AM

Blago is what Hansel and Gretal lost......if ya git ma drift! :lol:

betchatoo

12-14-2008, 12:02 AM

It's not just that he's corrupt, he's also a lousy governor. As a convicted liberal, I voted Republican in the last gubernatorial election. Blago puts the Goober in gubernatorial.

Steve 'StatMan'

12-14-2008, 01:22 AM

Yes! Saw a news poll that said he has an approval rating now of 8%, the trouble is, I saw a poll 2 months ago when his approval rating was about 15%, so while it was a 50% drop, he didn't have too far to fall (he never cared about that for, no surprise he hasn't cared about it with these issues either.)

Remember when all the deals for one of the many recent Chicago budget crisis (was it just the CTA, or all of Chicago including the CTA funding) when he threw the money wrench in at the last minute to gain support by insisting that he'd approve the CTA funding plan IF, among maybe other things, that Senior would now ride for free? My racing friend Creighton (I'm sure everyone at the Chicago tracks knows/remembers him) was complaing soon afterwards that his bus rides were taking FOREVER because so many Senior Citizens, most that used to walk 2 - 3 blocks were NOW TAKING THE BUS making them STOP more often, having them negotiate boarding and in numerous cases get out the lift to load them only to unload/exit after those same 2 - 3 blocks later. Of course! Because now that ride is Free! I don't live in the city, yet - things may change, so I can't speak from personal experience on it. But I sure remember him complaining, and it sure seemed like a logical complaint about a bad idea and the unintended consequences.

Remember when one of many times it looked like we had a slot deal going again, and he tried skuttling it and introducing his new idea of state run Keno machines (roundly scoffed at in all public and political circles) and killed everything just in case it wouldn't have died (again) on its own.

JustRalph

12-17-2008, 10:41 AM

Rezko is singing.........still..........and now he gets a postponement of his sentencing...........you only get that, when you have more to add........to your bargaining session.

http://www.week.com/news/local/36240794.html

Jailed political fund–raiser Tony Rezko sentencing has been postponed indefinitely and that could mean more problems for Governor Blagojevic.

Rezjo has had an on–again–off–again relationship with federal prosecutors for several months now and the postponing of his January 6th sentencing could mean the relationship is on again.

Rezko raised more than $1 million for Blagojevich's campaign fund and was a major adviser to the governor. As a member of Blagojevich's inner circle, Rezko could give investigators an extraordinary glimpse into the burgeoning political scandal.