Are Jockey Agents Worth 25%?

[Alyblakester]

It seems to me the jockeys pay a stiff price to their agents at a rate of twenty five per cent. Are they worth that much of a cut? Just curious about this, often thought it might be an easy job to break into racing for someone with a sales background.

[Cangamble]

It seems to me the jockeys pay a stiff price to their agents at a rate of twenty five per cent. Are they worth that much of a cut? Just curious about this, often thought it might be an easy job to break into racing for someone with a sales background.
The agent has to pay for donuts and coffee after every victory.

But seriously, a good agent is worth it. On the other side, jockeys who don't have agents tend to wind up at the bottom of the jocks standings.

[startngate]

A good agent is worth it to a jockey. The best agents are good sales people, good with "people relationships" in general, incredibly organized, and good handicappers. They also have to have a bit of babysitter in them, and have a tough skin. They take the blame so owners and trainers stay mad at them, instead of the jockey.

Agents doing their job on the backside allow the jockey to spend more time getting on horses in the morning, and less time wondering around and talking to trainers. This is one of the main reasons why jockeys without agents typically don't do as well as those with them, the other being a personal reason for being unpopular (not a good rider, doesn't show up in the morning, too selective with mounts, etc).

A good agent can make an OK rider a star, and can make one with talent a superstar.

[boomman]

A good agent is worth it to a jockey. The best agents are good sales people, good with "people relationships" in general, incredibly organized, and good handicappers. They also have to have a bit of babysitter in them, and have a tough skin. They take the blame so owners and trainers stay mad at them, instead of the jockey.

Agents doing their job on the backside allow the jockey to spend more time getting on horses in the morning, and less time wondering around and talking to trainers. This is one of the main reasons why jockeys without agents typically don't do as well as those with them, the other being a personal reason for being unpopular (not a good rider, doesn't show up in the morning, too selective with mounts, etc).

A good agent can make an OK rider a star, and can make one with talent a superstar.

Right on the button!

Boomer

[ralph_the_cat]

agree that a GREAT agent is worth it... the only problem is most of them arent GREAT...


and its not so much jockeys that dont have agents do bad... but its the fact that they couldnt do much better with an agent... so why fork out 20-25% for that... some jockeys just decide to drop the agent even if they know it might hurt them a little cause they realize their agent isnt doing anything incredible and they would rather keep that 20-25%... oh- and the whole english speaking part makes them a must for a large number of jocks...

[stu]

Y'all,

As an ex-agent, I will submit that it is necessary for a jockey to have an agent. The time spent making riding engagements, enterring horses, and attending the draw takes away from valuable time that could be spent breezing horses.

The information obtained from sitting on the back of horses in the morning is arguably worth more than 25% of the jockey's total compensation. This trade off is worth the expense of having an agent.

The proviso is that your agent must have the contacts and skills to get you on those workers in the morning. Additionally, the jockey must have the skill to be near the top of the standings.

When I started as an agent I probably wasn't worth 0%. If I was to try it again, I would be worth 25% only in the TX-NM-CO area, because I have better knowledge of the horsemen and horses in the region.

The top agents in NY/CA/KY could probably switch geographies and be fine, since some of the top trainers are simultaneously in those circuits. An example of this is Ebanks and Anderson can go back and forth seemlessly.

The top agents in Illinois (for example) would be worth less the further they moved from Chicago. I have seen agents travel with riders to a new circuit only to lose their client to a local agent who has better contacts.

After this week, I am sure that Joel Rosario thinks that Vic Stauffer is worth more than 25% and is happy that he only has to pay him that small of a percentage.

[cmoore]

A jockey pulls in 80k a year and the agent gets 20k..A 3-1 ratio seems fair..You got to be kidding me..The agent gets 25% and takes no risks..No monetary risk. No chance of getting injured on a daily basis. Maybe this is one of the problems in the game..Cut the agents out completely and have the owners, trainers and jockeys work it out between each other..How hard could it be..

[Mineshaft]

A jockey pulls in 80k a year and the agent gets 20k..A 3-1 ratio seems fair..You got to be kidding me..The agent gets 25% and takes no risks..No monetary risk. No chance of getting injured on a daily basis. Maybe this is one of the problems in the game..Cut the agents out completely and have the owners, trainers and jockeys work it out between each other..How hard could it be..





Very hard........

[Mineshaft]

Dont forget jocks pay the valets about 10%.


So thats 35% of there paycheck going to an agent or valet.

[cmoore]

Dont forget jocks pay the valets about 10%.


So thats 35% of there paycheck going to an agent or valet.

Add 25% taxes and now its up to 60%...

[DJofSD]

A jockey pulls in 80k a year and the agent gets 20k..A 3-1 ratio seems fair..You got to be kidding me..The agent gets 25% and takes no risks..No monetary risk. No chance of getting injured on a daily basis. Maybe this is one of the problems in the game..Cut the agents out completely and have the owners, trainers and jockeys work it out between each other..How hard could it be..Wow. I guess this is an example of ignorance being bliss.

Hook up with Stu, get a job as an agent then after a couple of months report back to us about how unneccesary they are. Better yet, go talk to some jock's and ask them why they just don't cut out their agent.

[cmoore]

Wow. I guess this is an example of ignorance being bliss.

Hook up with Stu, get a job as an agent then after a couple of months report back to us about how unneccesary they are. Better yet, go talk to some jock's and ask them why they just don't cut out their agent.

That's right I forgot. This game is thriving and should be left alone completely. Why make any changes at all..

[DJofSD]

Change is unavoidable. However, given that agents are still used even after the advent of cell phones, the internet and whatever else, I think if the agents could be eliminated they would have by now. They fill a need. And besides, they probably do a much better job dealing with all the various factors than the jock's could do for themselves. Jock's ride. Agents gather information and negotiate.

[magwell]

yes some are just a necessary evil with nothing invested in the game but a pencil,then there are some so good at what they do they could Tony Sirgusa and Chris Farley mounts and are worth 50% if some jocks could hire them.....:)

[stu]

nothing invested in the game but a pencil

Many successful agents have quite a bit invested in 'figures' among other things.

Tony Matos carries a library of data with him. You would be amazed at how many notebooks he carries at any given time. Regardless of who provides this data to Tony, its got to cost something large.

A handful of agents on every circuit have HP Jordana handhelds with weekly updates of Colts Neck Data speed figures. I am sure this isn't cheap.

I know several that buy the rags/sheets every day for their circuit(s) at what $25/day/track or more.

The majority of agents in NM have multiple accounts with BRIS, DRF, Flewws Figs to get coverage of both QH and TB.

You may see nothing other than a pencil but the tools of an agent are definitely more numerous than that.

[lamboguy]

with all the crybabbies and all the hand holding you have to do with these pinheads, an agent should be getting around 60%. they all like working for a discount.

not only do they have to work hard to get the mounts, they have to be professional liars to stay in this game.

[Mineshaft]

with all the crybabbies and all the hand holding you have to do with these pinheads, an agent should be getting around 60%. they all like working for a discount.

not only do they have to work hard to get the mounts, they have to be professional liars to stay in this game.




And be fathers to these jocks who dont have a clue. teach them English. Pick them up if they have no car. Call them on phone when they oversleep and are suppose to be at track working horses at 6:00 am. Call trainer and explain that little Johnny is not feeling good and cant work your horse.

[Alyblakester]

I don't know if I want to be a babysitter. Are these guys reliable about paying their agents on time?

[BUD]

In the Minors in Hockey--My agent made more on me than I did--

[Mineshaft]

I don't know if I want to be a babysitter. Are these guys reliable about paying their agents on time?




Some are and some are not.

[stu]

I don't know if I want to be a babysitter. Are these guys reliable about paying their agents on time?

Amongst the agent circles, it is well known who the bad pay riders are. They are usually pushed on to the unknowing first time agents.

Some riders will pay late, short, or not at all.

It is not uncommon for riders switching agents to stiff him on the last check. Stewards rarely intervene unless their is a written contract or a court judgement.

I know of jockeys who have child support or alimony automatically deducted from their paychecks and then subsequently want to pay their agents 25% of the net. I know some agents dumb enough to agree.

If there is ever a retroactive purse increase, agents rarely see anything from the 'retro' check especially if the jockey and agent are no longer a team.

[Mineshaft]

Amongst the agent circles, it is well known who the bad pay riders are. They are usually pushed on to the unknowing first time agents.

Some riders will pay late, short, or not at all.

It is not uncommon for riders switching agents to stiff him on the last check. Stewards rarely intervene unless their is a written contract or a court judgement.

I know of jockeys who have child support or alimony automatically deducted from their paychecks and then subsequently want to pay their agents 25% of the net. I know some agents dumb enough to agree.

If there is ever a retroactive purse increase, agents rarely see anything from the 'retro' check especially if the jockey and agent are no longer a team.





Stewards will intervene if you are tight with them. I know some down here that wont let them ride until they pay there agent.

Stu who do you represent?

[slewis]

It seems to me the jockeys pay a stiff price to their agents at a rate of twenty five per cent. Are they worth that much of a cut? Just curious about this, often thought it might be an easy job to break into racing for someone with a sales background.


That job, like many where one looks from the outside in, looks like a breeze.

Try to break in and see how long you last.

You'll be chewed up and spit out within 6 months. and I'm being nice to you.

Jorge Velasquez, all time great jock and nicest guy in the world, has been struggling for 3 yrs now and cant get decent jocks book.

Jorge comes to the track everyday, dressed in suit and tie, is friendly to every owner and trainer ....and cant make a living.
By the way, when you work your tail off and get a good jock, if things go sour for a while... your fired ...and screwed.
There is NO loyalty and NO contracts.

My suggestion to anyone thinking about it... Dont.

[Mineshaft]

That job, like many where one looks from the outside in, looks like a breeze.

Try to break in and see how long you last.

You'll be chewed up and spit out within 6 months. and I'm being nice to you.

Jorge Velasquez, all time great jock and nicest guy in the world, has been struggling for 3 yrs now and cant get decent jocks book.

Jorge comes to the track everyday, dressed in suit and tie, is friendly to every owner and trainer ....and cant make a living.
By the way, when you work your tail off and get a good jock, if things go sour for a while... your fired ...and screwed.
There is NO loyalty and NO contracts.

My suggestion to anyone thinking about it... Dont.





So true.

Its a tough business. Jocks are cut throat to the max.

[slewis]

So true.

Its a tough business. Jocks are cut throat to the max.


And your being NICE to them with that description. It's a very tough business.

[Mineshaft]

And your being NICE to them with that description. It's a very tough business.




Are you an agent?

[stu]

Stewards will intervene if you are tight with them. I know some down here that wont let them ride until they pay there agent.

Stu who do you represent?

I haven't agented in 3 years. I won't say the names to protect the innocent -- at least two of my former riders are making a good career.

[slewis]

Are you an agent?

No.

[boomman]

I am also a former jockey agent, and I can assure you I DEFINITELY earned the 25%! It was without a doubt one of the hardest jobs I ever worked at the racetrack, and I have done most of 'em at one time or another over my 25+ years in the business..........;)

Boomer

[Fingal]

Just ask Joel Rosario after his 5 win, 2 place day if he feels his agent was worth it.

[ralph_the_cat]

IMO the jockeys that have agents dont have agents because they are busy on a horse... they have agents because the agents have CONNECTIONS... if an agent doesnt have connections they are close to worthless IMO... they might get you some more mounts here and there, and give you more winners, but it doesnt make up for 25%... you could say that this means you need a 25% increase in wins and mounts with an agent JUST to make the same... so an agent better get you double the mounts and wins or the rider will simply not pay you one week, that typically means you're fired...

With todays technology, as long as you speak english alright you have a great chance at handling most of your own stuff... Ive seen a handfull of jockeys get rid of their agent because they dont give them a large increase in mounts and wins... and some jockeys have already built better relationships with some trainers than the agent has... and the agent might actually cause some problems... I think anyone thats been on the backside has seen some jockey and agents go at it... after an agent makes a crappy decision to not ride or ride for someone or even just not work or work for someone else... With todays tech, you see jockeys with no agents on their phones/blue tooths while they are on the back of a horse... they here double calls announced they start calling trainers and the racing office... etc... they can handle it much better without agents than they could 20 years ago... If your a jockey and just hire a "fresh" face with no connections, it wont last... you need connections BOTTOM LINE... thats why ex-jockeys,trainers, owners, racing officials make good agents... connections, connections, connections...

[lamboguy]

i rember snake cooper when he got julie krone. he had no connections, and didn't have a clue. he had a nice ride with her for many years in new jersey and new york. last i heard the snake owned a bus company and he was hustling bus trips between baltimore and atlantic city for the casino's.

these agents today are worth every single dime and more. there is no way a jockey could ever do what a good agent does. not just the connections, but the fact that they keep these guys on the ball. if not for these agents some of these jocks would be paying off a trainer to get a mount if its a good one.

if they have no agent and a mount its going to cost them anyway, they might as well have the agent.

i know when i name jocks i go to my favorite agent, and stay loyal to him. he's the guy that will tell your trainer that a horse is entering in a race that you can't beat. so instead of scratching and losing 10 days, you just don't enter.

[maxwell]

When I was a kid I caddied one summer for spending money. The operative word here is, ONE. Sitting around in a shed hoping Mrs. Fatass's favorite caddy didn't show this morning. Dealing with the public and servitude is a major drag. The life of many agents can't be a bowl of cherries. It must be a "calling" like being a nurse or a firefighter?

However, it is a bowl of cherries if you're lucky enough to have Jerry Bailey's book and Bill Mott is looking for you. And I would caddy again if Tiger were to ask me. :)

[llegend39]

It seems to me the jockeys pay a stiff price to their agents at a rate of twenty five per cent. Are they worth that much of a cut? Just curious about this, often thought it might be an easy job to break into racing for someone with a sales background.

I'd ask Vic Stauffer and Joel Rosario Since they hooked up the kid has been on fire winning 5 on Sat.

[jotb]

I know what it takes to be a good jock agent. You take a rider that wins less than 20 races in 3 years and then wins almost 300 races in less than 3 years. Try going to a different racetrack (agent and jockey unknown) and make that happen.

Joe

[v j stauffer]

Many successful agents have quite a bit invested in 'figures' among other things.

Tony Matos carries a library of data with him. You would be amazed at how many notebooks he carries at any given time. Regardless of who provides this data to Tony, its got to cost something large.

A handful of agents on every circuit have HP Jordana handhelds with weekly updates of Colts Neck Data speed figures. I am sure this isn't cheap.

I know several that buy the rags/sheets every day for their circuit(s) at what $25/day/track or more.

The majority of agents in NM have multiple accounts with BRIS, DRF, Flewws Figs to get coverage of both QH and TB.

You may see nothing other than a pencil but the tools of an agent are definitely more numerous than that.

Flewwsfigs is an AMAZING website. Cuts my bookwork time from at least 3 hours a day to about 45 minutes.

Believe it or not trainers love to text. That really helps alot too.

[Dave Schwartz]

IMHO, (apparently) being a jockey is a two-man job. One person to get the mounts and the other to actually ride them.

Most endeavors where one cannot succeed without the second partner would demand closer to a 50-50 split. However, as has been stated the jockey takes the physical risk and produces the visible success. Hence, the agent takes only a 1/4 share.

I believe that this is different than (say) a sports agent because the athlete can, from a practical standpoint, act as his own agent. In racing, time simply does not allow it.


Perhaps a reasonably good analogy would be the pit crew in auto racing. Imagine the driver pulling into the pit and changin his tires.

Of course, I have to admit that I really do not know much about jockey-agenting, so perhaps my opinion can be discounted.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[ralph_the_cat]

Although I agree with most of the stuff stated about the GREAT agents... I think some of you dont understand that they are all not as good as vic and others you like so much... When you meet a good agent... rarely does the relationship ever go bad... and you admire their respect they have and dedication to their job.... but c'mon now... they're all not like that... Half of them are just trying to find a new career with little direction... theres agents out there that are worth more than 25% of the money... but there are 10X that that are only worth 10% if you ask me... WHen considering whether an agent is worth it its all about how much the agent improves the jockeys mounts/wins/earnings... :bang: they're all not vic... IF the conversation was about the top 25 leading riders in the country than I wouldnt comment... but I thought we were talking about agents in general...

[jotb]

Although I agree with most of the stuff stated about the GREAT agents... I think some of you dont understand that they are all not as good as vic and others you like so much... When you meet a good agent... rarely does the relationship ever go bad... and you admire their respect they have and dedication to their job.... but c'mon now... they're all not like that... Half of them are just trying to find a new career with little direction... theres agents out there that are worth more than 25% of the money... but there are 10X that that are only worth 10% if you ask me... WHen considering whether an agent is worth it its all about how much the agent improves the jockeys mounts/wins/earnings... :bang: they're all not vic... IF the conversation was about the top 25 leading riders in the country than I wouldnt comment... but I thought we were talking about agents in general...

That's right! Most agents are not worth 10%. They work other jobs or are retired from another career. I had an agent in NY many years ago, that told me if I wanted to do this, I better have some money behind me and be able to handle rejection and broken promises. I've paid my dues over the years and struggled only because I never had the chance to work with a high profile jockey. I've always worked with jocks that had no business. I've never let a jockey down in the past. It's always been the other way around.

It's just not fair! Many agents walk into shit and they get jockeys only because they know each other for a long time. So, the jock gives them a shot. Are the agents that good? Hell no. It's the jockey that makes the agent in many cases. I had no reputation as an agent and because of this, I always had to work with unknown jocks. Damn, I brought my first rider from South Africa through the internet and once he arrived in the states he won his first race in NY. His wife was unhappy so they went back home.

Then I brought a jock in from Australia and we win 15 races at MTH. Unfortunately, for me another agent got to him and my job was over once again. Loyalty out the window! Then I took a rider after he lost his bug in NY and went to PHA and we win 20 something races in a months time. I drove from NY to Pha every day. Left my house 2:30am and was a the track at 5:30 am every day. Where was he in the morning? Home sleeping. Lazy as could be. My heart was there and wanted to succeed as an agent but it was always the jock that let me down.

Did I give up? No. Why? Because I wanted to be a top agent. I couldn't make it at the top racetracks only because I didn't have the jockey. I approach a rider that was lucky if he won a couple of races a year and ask if he wanted to relocate. He took me up on his offer. I didn't let him down. I walk into a racetrack that didn't know me or my rider. We went on to win well over 200 races in a 2 year span. He went from not riding any horses to the top 100 in the nation for wins in 2005. What happened to him? He became like many other jockeys and started to get lazy. He only wanted to ride certain horses and deal with certain clients. On top of it, he got himself involved with a girl on the track that was a trainer. I won't get into details but it became a conflict of interest so, I had to let him go. He went from 3rd place in the standings to the point where he's lucky to ride today.

I recently brought an apprentice rider in from MTH park. This kid couldn't rub 2 nickels together. I put him in one of the biggest barns on the track. He lived with me and I helped him get a place once he made some money and what did he do. I told this kid it's ok to ride for this guy to get off the ground but you need to expose yourself to other trainers and racetracks so that you can make a name for yourself once your bug is over. He didn't care! He wanted to come to work and leave at 9:00am in the morning. He was more interested in hanging out with the wrong people. I tried to look out for his career. He allowed people to get into his head (the wrong people) and thought it would be in his best interest to work with another agent that had the top rider. I put in all the footwork and for what? Now he gives his 25% to an agent that had done crap for him and he's suppose to be the top agent. He's still in the same barn that I put him in and has won only 3 other races for other trainers. There's loyalty for you.

Many of these jockeys think the grass is greener elsewhere. They eventually find out they made a hugh mistake but it's too late by then. They are sucked in and spit right back out. They are used and abused. When this trainer is done with him he will be looking for another career. They only see what's in front of them. Did he effect my life? Absolutely. I'm a family man and was a single parent for a long time. I tried everything in my power to succeed at this. This job comes with no benefits or retirement plan. It's a 7 day a week job and you can forget about holidays. All my life, I always wanted to be part of the industry because I loved it so much. Lately, I'm sour as hell! I've been stepped on so many times. I'm starting to lose that hope. I show up for life everyday. I have nothing to fall back on in life because horse racing is all I know. I have a beautiful daughter that's been with me since she's 9 years old (single parent) and we have been through the mill together. I always made it my business to show and give love. I never was well off financially but somehow always made ends meet. Thank the Good Lord she is graduating college this year. I'm sorry that I continue to babble on. I think I just needed to vent.

Thank you guys and gals,
Joe

[ralph_the_cat]

I hear ya Jotb... The business is so rewarding its hard to just "find another job"... You're either on top or your striving to be on top and you have a little bitterness in you, its the nature of the beast... sometimes its like YOU are the only one that wants to succeed... It was important for me to always be involved in thoroughbred racing but also find another career that can support a family and normal life... I like to think Ive balanced that part of my life out... :liar:

[jotb]

I hear ya Jotb... The business is so rewarding its hard to just "find another job"... You're either on top or your striving to be on top and you have a little bitterness in you, its the nature of the beast... sometimes its like YOU are the only one that wants to succeed... It was important for me to always be involved in thoroughbred racing but also find another career that can support a family and normal life... I like to think Ive balanced that part of my life out... :liar:

It's great you found that balance in life. I've made many mistakes over the year's (career choices) and I'm paying the price for it. I'm confused right now and must make some changes once again in my life. Decisions can be overwhelming at times because they come with a price and right now in my life, I can't afford to make a bad decision. I'm stuck right now and don't know which way to turn. God willing things will take a turn for the best. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Joe

[boomman]

That's right! Most agents are not worth 10%. They work other jobs or are retired from another career. I had an agent in NY many years ago, that told me if I wanted to do this, I better have some money behind me and be able to handle rejection and broken promises. I've paid my dues over the years and struggled only because I never had the chance to work with a high profile jockey. I've always worked with jocks that had no business. I've never let a jockey down in the past. It's always been the other way around.

It's just not fair! Many agents walk into shit and they get jockeys only because they know each other for a long time. So, the jock gives them a shot. Are the agents that good? Hell no. It's the jockey that makes the agent in many cases. I had no reputation as an agent and because of this, I always had to work with unknown jocks. Damn, I brought my first rider from South Africa through the internet and once he arrived in the states he won his first race in NY. His wife was unhappy so they went back home.

Then I brought a jock in from Australia and we win 15 races at MTH. Unfortunately, for me another agent got to him and my job was over once again. Loyalty out the window! Then I took a rider after he lost his bug in NY and went to PHA and we win 20 something races in a months time. I drove from NY to Pha every day. Left my house 2:30am and was a the track at 5:30 am every day. Where was he in the morning? Home sleeping. Lazy as could be. My heart was there and wanted to succeed as an agent but it was always the jock that let me down.

Did I give up? No. Why? Because I wanted to be a top agent. I couldn't make it at the top racetracks only because I didn't have the jockey. I approach a rider that was lucky if he won a couple of races a year and ask if he wanted to relocate. He took me up on his offer. I didn't let him down. I walk into a racetrack that didn't know me or my rider. We went on to win well over 200 races in a 2 year span. He went from not riding any horses to the top 100 in the nation for wins in 2005. What happened to him? He became like many other jockeys and started to get lazy. He only wanted to ride certain horses and deal with certain clients. On top of it, he got himself involved with a girl on the track that was a trainer. I won't get into details but it became a conflict of interest so, I had to let him go. He went from 3rd place in the standings to the point where he's lucky to ride today.

I recently brought an apprentice rider in from MTH park. This kid couldn't rub 2 nickels together. I put him in one of the biggest barns on the track. He lived with me and I helped him get a place once he made some money and what did he do. I told this kid it's ok to ride for this guy to get off the ground but you need to expose yourself to other trainers and racetracks so that you can make a name for yourself once your bug is over. He didn't care! He wanted to come to work and leave at 9:00am in the morning. He was more interested in hanging out with the wrong people. I tried to look out for his career. He allowed people to get into his head (the wrong people) and thought it would be in his best interest to work with another agent that had the top rider. I put in all the footwork and for what? Now he gives his 25% to an agent that had done crap for him and he's suppose to be the top agent. He's still in the same barn that I put him in and has won only 3 other races for other trainers. There's loyalty for you.

Many of these jockeys think the grass is greener elsewhere. They eventually find out they made a hugh mistake but it's too late by then. They are sucked in and spit right back out. They are used and abused. When this trainer is done with him he will be looking for another career. They only see what's in front of them. Did he effect my life? Absolutely. I'm a family man and was a single parent for a long time. I tried everything in my power to succeed at this. This job comes with no benefits or retirement plan. It's a 7 day a week job and you can forget about holidays. All my life, I always wanted to be part of the industry because I loved it so much. Lately, I'm sour as hell! I've been stepped on so many times. I'm starting to lose that hope. I show up for life everyday. I have nothing to fall back on in life because horse racing is all I know. I have a beautiful daughter that's been with me since she's 9 years old (single parent) and we have been through the mill together. I always made it my business to show and give love. I never was well off financially but somehow always made ends meet. Thank the Good Lord she is graduating college this year. I'm sorry that I continue to babble on. I think I just needed to vent.

Thank you guys and gals,
Joe

Joe: Although I was lucky enough to have 3 very loyal riders when I was an agent, I certainly have seen this very thing that you describe happen to many agents and it is sickening. Loyalty is important in every phase of life but unfortunately, it doesn't seem to count for a lot when an agent gets a jockey's career off and running. I know Joe Talamo recently changed agents after much early success and his agent (I believe it was Ron Ebanks) was dumbfounded. Then you have the other side of the coin, as Chris McCarron was SUPER loyal to Scotty McClellan for many years. I'm sorry you got the sh*t end of the stick and I wish you better experiences and much success in the future................:)

Boomer

[jotb]

Joe: Although I was lucky enough to have 3 very loyal riders when I was an agent, I certainly have seen this very thing that you describe happen to many agents and it is sickening. Loyalty is important in every phase of life but unfortunately, it doesn't seem to count for a lot when an agent gets a jockey's career off and running. I know Joe Talamo recently changed agents after much early success and his agent (I believe it was Ron Ebanks) was dumbfounded. Then you have the other side of the coin, as Chris McCarron was SUPER loyal to Scotty McClellan for many years. I'm sorry you got the sh*t end of the stick and I wish you better experiences and much success in the future................:)

Boomer

Hello Boomer:

The Joe Talamo situation was terrible and it happens quite frequently. We just don't hear it as much. There are many jocks out there that change agents like they change their underwear. An agent has no protection. The jocks don't want to put together a contract. All you have is a handshake and hope for the best.

Joe

[Show Me the Wire]

My take on it. Ron should have not taken Tyler's book too. Also, at least to me, Tyler was getting more live mounts than Joe. Made good betting coups, but not fair to the original client.

Also, I seen agents dropping jocks for better riders too.

Jotb:

I have to ask you this question. Why did the jocks improve under your care? Did you teach them riding skills, riding strategy, just pick out better stock for them to ride or a combination?

[roarnomore]

i have been an agent for ten years. some successful ,some not. have fairly good connections on my circut and the one thing ive found ,you have to have a good rider, especially with better connections. good outfits wont ride bad or mediocre riders , they dont have to and wont. some agents definatly are better at bringing out the best in ther riders through live mounts but as far as riding top horses with a bad rider consistantly it just doesnt happen, with the exception of steve elsey and the bug girl he had a few years ago 'prather', that was bizzare. as for " is the job worth 25%" ?, you would have to try it to see what its like. if it was horrible i wouldnt do it, if were easy everyone would. you decide

[LIH]

Hmmm, I believe this thread started because someone asked if agents are worth 25%. I have heard several times thru the years jockeys trying to think about changing it and backing it down to 20 or 15% every now and then. That would take them working together, and staying firm as one unit, so I guess that will never happen. I have also heard some jocks actually have paid 30%, and to me, that is ludicrous. It should be noted how agents have come to be paid this much. Back in the day, (I'm dating myself), agents were created because when this game started to evolve, jockeys were the low men down on the totem pole. Many times, they were stable hands, many of them black, who were hoisted up and sent out to prove that "my horse is faster than your horse" was the only goal. Purses percentages owed to them were more often than not, NOT delivered, and what kind of an imposing figure did a 95-100 man offer to a non complient trainer or owner when demanding to be paid. Jockeys soon got fed up with only collecting what was owed them one out of every four rides, and began to hire, how shall we say, "muscle men" to go around to barns and owners to "gently" pursued people to pay up services rendered. Not to insult the forefathers of todays agents, but most times these guys were merely goons who assured the riders their fair share of the winning purse. The arrangement was not a cheap one though, and the agents of the day proposed, I get you your money, then, I get 25%. SO, this is how this came to be. Personally,I think in todays business of the racehorse kingdom, things are a bit more civilized,,,, or are they.


The relationship is like any other, who can put down on paper exactly the correct recipe for what makes it tick, but if there is good communication, respect for each other, and honesty between the two you have the makings for a good start. Connections have been brought up ALOT in this thread, and I think that is an extremely important componant. I can't begin to tell you how many times I have seen a rider who DID NOT have the makings of a top world class jockey, what some term "elite" rider,but was at the top of the standings due to having had an agent who was the mover and the shaker, the one with a following, the one who dropped off tickets to all the top venues in town, the one who bought dinner, the one who had all the top horses to bet, the one who fixed all those parking tickets because of all his "connections" down in the police force, the one who picked up all your dry cleaning, brought you to the airport, gave you that top vinyard bottle of wine, got you a table at that restarant that has a waitlist for a year, cleaned up all your personal messes because he has friends in all the right places, calls your mistress to meet you and then lies to the wife about it, and the greatest one of all, KICKBACK, AND ON AND ON AND ON!!! Lots of times this is what gets you the mounts at the racetrack. Talent on the riders end, you bet that is neccesary, but often real talent goes unnoticed, while riders that are complacent, big headed, and mediocre at best prevail. The other important thing that gets riders mounts, is PUBLIC PERCEPTION. The owners and trainers want the "big names", the guys they see on television, only want the first three guys at the top of the jockeys standings,the guys they see the other owners naming on, instead of knowing truly what goes on on a day to day basis. They generally DON'T CARE about who is on the horse in the mornings, teaching that horse, or who has taught and rode him early in maiden races, only to be snatched off once a stake career seems eminent. On the training end, if one does care, he is only met with, "try to get so and so, or so and so, and the a rider has to pray all the "big names" are taken before they begin to get a chance at the big time. Certainly who is out, day after day, truly loving what they are doing, and truly knowing what a real horseman is about has nothing to do with their decision making. Personally, I want a rider who knows what they are doing, is respectful and UNDERSTANDING of the game, and of the horseflesh they are on, and one that can tell me whether they just breezed one 5/8ths in a 1:00 or 57. I want one that that cares about how my horse is after the race, not just when I give him a leg up in the paddock. I like remembering the good old days when jockeys were determined on their horsemanship, and if they could ride, and gauge a race by not only knowing his horse, but the horses and riders around him. They came by the barn, with a smile on their face, didn't takethemselves too seriously, and knew that the HORSE was what got them thier fame, not some magic they possesed. They, for the most part, were humble. The same could be said for trainers. How big some of thier heads have gotten is just plain ridiculous.

This being said, it should be noted that Tom Cruise doesn't pay his agent 25%, there is NO OTHER business I know of, where such a huge amount of money is taken from money earned. Oh wait, I forgot,, there is one.... UNCLE SAM. Other than that, I don't know of one. Let me know if there is, and this will have taught me something on the day.

And there lies my two cents.
LIH

[jotb]

Hello LIH:

I see this was your first post ever on this forum and you did a great job. I always wondered how the job of Jockey Agent came about. I find that most people understand what an agent does in many other industries but tell someone that you work as a jockey agent and their reply usually is "what's that" especially if their not familiar too much with horse racing. I always tell people what a jockey agent's job consist of and you can tell they don't quit understand. For some reason, they don't believe it's an occupation.

Not all agents get paid the usual 25%. Some agents that have a "high profile" jockey will work for a 15% take. An agent that works for less than the usual 25% will usually not admit this to other agents. Some agents will charge a jockey 30% usually with apprentice riders. The extra 5% take is because an agent helps the apprentice with housing. Once the apprentice rider starts making money and retrieves their own place to live then it's back to the usual 25%. This does not happen most of the time but it's been done by some agents.

A jockey agent is allowed to have two rider's. You can't have two apprentice jockey's at one time but you can have two journeyman rider's or one apprentice jockey and one journeyman rider. Then you have some agents out there that will have as many as three jocks which is not allowed according to the rules. One of the jocks are worked under the table for a percentage that is negotiated between the agent and jock. When this occurs it's usually with an agent that has a couple of jockey's that are not doing well. It generates extra income for that agent to grind out a living each week. You don't really make money unless you win races. An agent can't really can't get by with just mount fees. I'm totally against an agent that has more than two jocks.

When you win a race for a trainer the agent usually will bring breakfast to the barn in the morning. Some agents will bring a box of donuts or donuts and bagels. Not all agents work this way. A lot depends on the stable itself. Some outfits have many stablehands while others may only have a couple of workers. Then you have to take into consideration the purse award. Most outfits are grateful that you bring something in the morning and there are some outfits that are picky about what the agent brings. I always do the right thing for the barn. I will bring breakfast sandwiches or lunch (pizza+sandwiches) and take care of the groom and exercise rider of that winning horse. I once had a trainer that called me in the morning and told me to bring 20 number one's from McDonalds. That I didn't appreciate too much. Never tell me what I have to bring. You should make it your business as an agent to take tare of your clients at Christmas time and the occasional dinners or entertainment during the year. There's also nothing wrong with sending something to the owners for the opportunity they give you. It all depends on what you feel is the right thing to do. There are some agents that kick back money to trainers or even draw up win tickets for the trainers. I've never witnessed this but I've heard it's done. No matter what you do for your clientele (trainers and owners) it's a fact that the agent and jockey need the trainer and owner more than the other way around. Any jockey and agent can be replaced at any time so you never take anything for granted. I'm always grateful when a trainer and owner are willing to give my rider an opportunity. You should treat every client (no matter how many horses they have) the same way.

I agree with you all the way about honesty, repect, and good communication. Unfortunately, many agents in the sport lie like a rug. They will take multiple calls for a single race from trainers which in turn causes the agent to spin a trainer. If you do your homework ahead of time (knowing where your horses are pointing) you can avoid this practice. It's a good practice to honor your calls. I always let a trainer know up front if I have another horse going into the same race. I try to avoid double calls as much as I can. I dislike this part of the job because you have to turn someone away but you only can ride one horse in a race. On the other hand, you have to protect your jockey by making sure he's on the better horse otherwise you be looking for another job. Unfortunately, if you want to do a clean business with the trainers it's apparant you will give up a couple of winners here and there. Of course the jockey is never happy and neither will be the agent but if you do this type of business you will get respect from the trainers and it will pay off down the road. Unfortunately, it's hard to make everyone happy. I don't like to spin trainers at all. Don't forget trainers have owners to deal with so when you tell the trainer we are good for the race that trainer is telling the owner the jock is going to ride the horse. If you spin that trainer after you gave him the call then that trainer has to explain what happened to the owner. I once turned away a trainer that had 70 head of horses because I gave a call to another trainer that morning. The trainer with 70 head called me about hour before the entries closed and expected me to turn the other trainer around. I said to him, sir I appreciate the opportunity but unfortunately, I can't tell the other trainer that I can't ride his horse now. He said to me, I'm going to name you on anyway and you can deal with your jock when the overnight came out. When the overnight came out the other trainer called me and said, I guess you are taking off my horse. I said, sir I gave you the call and I will honor it. Of course I had to then explain to this to my jockey but he respected my decision. I told my rider if this trainer really wants to ride you he will come back again in the future. Make a long story short, we win the race and the other horse finished up the track as the favorite. Of course this does not happen all the time but I feel it's best to honor your calls.

Communcation is so important between trainer and agent but there's a time and place for this. I will usually try to schedule my rider's morning works the day before if possible. Some trainers will do this while others just expect you to show up in the morning. It all depends on the stable. You get to know their daily routine and incorporate your work around their routine. A good time to speak with a trainer in the morning is around break time. As an agent you try to make it your business that the trainer's see you in the morning. "Out of sight, out of mind". I will go up on the rail where most of the trainer are and shake everyone's hand and give my good mornings to everyone. I will try to stike up a conversation with a trainer about one of their horses and if they respond well, I will continue on. My instinct will tell me when they are not interested in conversation and I will continue on to something else or should I say sombody else. My jockey play an important role when communicating especially with the horses he is woking in the mornings. Many trainers want the feedback from the jock about the horse but it should always be in a positive way. If a trainer feels you don't really like the horse in the morning chances are you will not ride that horse in the afternoon. A jockey should handle this in a delicate way. Some horses don't train well in the mornings but are full of run in the afternoons. I always tell my jock to tell me if he don't like a horse rather than the other way around. It's my job as an agent to communicate with the trainer once I get feedback from my jock when morning work is done. As an agent you always need to communicate with a trainer in a professional manner. I've seen many agents make the mistake of telling trainer's about how they should handle their horses or where they should run their stock. I will only advise a trainer where a horse fits when I'm asked and even then you have to be careful not to insult the trainer. The trainers sometimes get too high on their horses and make the mistake of running the horse in a spot where the horse can't win. Many times a trainer knows where the horse fits but (especially with small outfits) the owner won't allow that trainer to run the horse in the proper spot.

An agent needs to be on top of his or her game at all times. Sharpness is key. You should know the eligibility of all the horses that your jockey rides. It's a must to watch races to find horses that your jockey will fit perfectly. It's important to always know on entry day what races will be used and how many horses are in each race. If a race is short and you have clientele that's from out of town and they have a horse that fits the spot to give them a call and see if they are interested. I've won many races this way and trainers love it when you look out for them. I think it's important to watch races within the circuit so that you can try and hustle trainers to nominate their good horses for upcoming stake races. You should be at the draw each day and when the overnight comes out to call your clients to let them know what race and post position for their horses. Some racetracks have double calls on the overnight and it's important that you have all the trainer's phone numbers so that you can pick up another horse. I don't make that call unless I feel the horse has a shot. Some agents don't care and put their rider's on anything. You have to be really careful with this because you can get your rider hurt. If the rider is hurt then you can't make any money. It's better to have quality than quantity. Stats are very important so you always like to be on "live" horses. There are many owners like you said that only want to ride the top 3 jockey's but there are many jockey's that are just as good if not better than the top 3. It's really tough to retrieve the good horses if your jockey is not in the top of the standings. I can't tell you how many times owners make this mistake of going after the top rider to only wind up getting a test ride. A top rider is usually not as hungry as the rider's below in the standings and they are not going to jeopardize their business if the horse is not right. I can understand trainers and owners reaching out for the best jockey because they don't want someone else making the mistake of not getting the job done but the top jocks do make mistakes and don't necessarily fit every horse. Anyway, it the agent's job (a difficult one) when the jockey screws up to try and smooth things out with the trainer the following day. You have to take an earful from the trainer and it's not a good feeling. For the most part, trainers do view a race intelligently and see where the jock messed up but on occasion trainers only see what they want to see. All you can do as an agent is try and plead your case. The trainer will still come down much harder on the agent than the jockey unless the trainer will never ride that jock again. You as the agent really don't want that door to close. You better be able to handle rejection well because there is plenty when you are an agent. Not all trainers are loyal and will use a jock to breeze a horse and then turn around and ride someone else. They will make promises they can't keep because they don't have control of their owners. So, you have to be careful with some of the trainers. It's not easy to explain to your jock that he is not riding a horse that he worked in the mornings. As an agent, you are constantly inbetween trainer and jockey. Hopefully it's a marriage made in heaven but more importantly the jockey and agent must be loyal to each other. This is an up and down business with plenty of peaks and valleys. You have to have thick skin for this job and be willing to climb the obstacles you will face. If a person is still unsure whether an agent is worth 25% then my suggestion would be for that person to take a month out of their life and try to do this job to determine whether 25% is too much. It's the only way to find out.

Joe

[boomman]

As an author of 2 books on horse race handicapping and wagering, I can tell you Joe that if I was ever going to write a book on jockey agenting that I would ask you for permission to print what you have written directly above this post. You nailed it 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Boomer

[magwell]

Joe... you covered the agent business as good and honest as can be great post :ThmbUp:

[jotb]

Thank you guy's.

If you ever wanted to write a book, please feel free to contact me anytime. I have plenty of good information to speak about. The problem with me is my writing skills. I try to provide as much detailed information as much as I can. But believe me, there's plenty more to speak about. It's just hard for me to put things in writing. Anyway, thanking for taking the time to read.

Joe

[strapper]

Very insightful comments Joe. It has been my experience that most agents are probably not cut out for a "regular" job. Some probably had normal jobs when they were younger, then they sort of dropped out of society to join the racing carny.

[ralph_the_cat]

I've just met so many agents that have blown me and others over you wouldnt believe, its weird, the top agents with the top riders tend to treat the smaller trainers with more respect than the agents with struggling riders... when you deal with an agent with a 8th and 9th ranked riders they will blow you off in the morning just to work for a trainer with 3 more horses or 5 more wins than you... not even realizing that he had a shot on yours but hes going to ride a few of the pathetic looking horses for the other trainer instead...

Then you have the bigger agents that are totally honest with you... "no my #1 ranked rider wont want to ride that bottom claimer but my other rider ranked in 4th would fit that horse good"... Ill send a exercise rider down in the morning to see how he goes"... and rarely does he not show up

The worse case of "agents gone bad" was a couple years ago... a rider shows up and picks up a local agent, the rider was winless in about 10 starts the first 2 weeks, I had a live horse coming off a layoff and I said what the hell Ill use this guy hes been riding dogs, Ill give him a live mount.... the horse wins, the rider gets his first win... I call his agent the next morning the minute the track opens and tell him to come get me first after break for a nice horse I just claimed, he thanks me and says he'll take care of it... does he show?... no, the agent stayed home and couldnt get a hold of the rider... I get the horse out with some other jock, the agent shows up to pick up an overnighter in the afternoon and I asked him where his rider was this morning, he says, we had a late night last night he came in to work a few for so and so and left because he was sick... and says thanks again for that win last night, we were all thrilled... Did you end up getting the new horse out?.... :faint: I was thinking are you freakin serious???????????????????????????????????


I didnt even yell at him, I just looked at him for a couple seconds thinking you are so retarded it isnt even funny...:bang: the rider had plenty of talent too, it was a shame.... the rider split after a year and the agent shows up with these suckass riders a couple times a year... and I never give him the time of day... hes called me 20 times the last year or 2 to try and pick up mounts here and there but I never gave him one, he doesnt get it!...

What the sport needs is more agents like you Joe, too many suckass agents Ive come across, the good agents deserve as much as they want, suckass agents deserve to go broke, like most do... ALso Joe, I dont know what tracks you were at... but location is oh so important, why compete with the best if you dont have the connections too and the field sizes are not big enough to get your boys enough mounts to visit the winners circle... Do you have any intentions on going back to the track some day... or are you done?

[ralph_the_cat]

Very insightful comments Joe. It has been my experience that most agents are probably not cut out for a "regular" job. Some probably had normal jobs when they were younger, then they sort of dropped out of society to join the racing carny.

true, but the normal ones find another career....

[v j stauffer]

Great posts from obviously real agents. The 25% is kind of a nebulous thing. The way I look at it is. Hopefully by doing many of the things the Joe spoke of a good agent will generate enough new business to pay for himself.

Joe is spot on with the twists and turns that happen everyday.

Great stuff.

VJS

[jotb]

I've just met so many agents that have blown me and others over you wouldnt believe, its weird, the top agents with the top riders tend to treat the smaller trainers with more respect than the agents with struggling riders... when you deal with an agent with a 8th and 9th ranked riders they will blow you off in the morning just to work for a trainer with 3 more horses or 5 more wins than you... not even realizing that he had a shot on yours but hes going to ride a few of the pathetic looking horses for the other trainer instead...

Then you have the bigger agents that are totally honest with you... "no my #1 ranked rider wont want to ride that bottom claimer but my other rider ranked in 4th would fit that horse good"... Ill send a exercise rider down in the morning to see how he goes"... and rarely does he not show up

The worse case of "agents gone bad" was a couple years ago... a rider shows up and picks up a local agent, the rider was winless in about 10 starts the first 2 weeks, I had a live horse coming off a layoff and I said what the hell Ill use this guy hes been riding dogs, Ill give him a live mount.... the horse wins, the rider gets his first win... I call his agent the next morning the minute the track opens and tell him to come get me first after break for a nice horse I just claimed, he thanks me and says he'll take care of it... does he show?... no, the agent stayed home and couldnt get a hold of the rider... I get the horse out with some other jock, the agent shows up to pick up an overnighter in the afternoon and I asked him where his rider was this morning, he says, we had a late night last night he came in to work a few for so and so and left because he was sick... and says thanks again for that win last night, we were all thrilled... Did you end up getting the new horse out?.... :faint: I was thinking are you freakin serious???????????????????????????????????


I didnt even yell at him, I just looked at him for a couple seconds thinking you are so retarded it isnt even funny...:bang: the rider had plenty of talent too, it was a shame.... the rider split after a year and the agent shows up with these suckass riders a couple times a year... and I never give him the time of day... hes called me 20 times the last year or 2 to try and pick up mounts here and there but I never gave him one, he doesnt get it!...

What the sport needs is more agents like you Joe, too many suckass agents Ive come across, the good agents deserve as much as they want, suckass agents deserve to go broke, like most do... ALso Joe, I dont know what tracks you were at... but location is oh so important, why compete with the best if you dont have the connections too and the field sizes are not big enough to get your boys enough mounts to visit the winners circle... Do you have any intentions on going back to the track some day... or are you done?

Sounds like there was a lack of communciation on somebody's part or just a bunch of lies. All the agent had to do was call you up and let you know so that you could make other arrangements. It's cut and dry. The problem with many agents is that they don't like to say no to the trainer so it's easier not to pick up the phone and the agent hopes it will blow over.

The agent is not communicating with the jockey or vice versa. If I call my jock and tell him we have a worker at such and such time (leave him a message), I expect him to call me right back so, that I can call the trainer right back and confirm the work time. You don't want a trainer to tack a horse up only to have the rider not show or come late. That's bad business!

Many jockeys are a pain in the ass to work with. Some will do anything to get out of work. The stories get played out. If a jock rides in the afternoon or nightime and is a bar hopper and goes out at night (which many do) then, it's their responsibility to get out of bed in the morning. I don't want to hear about hangovers, sickness or any other excuse the jockey has. This is a business and trainers count on you in the mornings to show up. This is not a 9 to 5 job and sick day's should be hardly if any. You don't make morning work then someone else will replace you and goodbye mount.

Some jocks are babies (that's why many don't succeed). Many agent's are baby sitters. I had this apprentice rider that had a difficult time of getting up in the morning. He was late the 2nd morning I worked with him. I told him, I can't have this. This trainer expects you at the barn at 6am. All you have to do is set the alarm clock and when it goes off just get up. His reply was "ok poppy". The next day same shit. I said to him forget the alarm clock. I will call you at 5am everyday and wake you. All you have to do is leave the phone on next to your ear and when I call you then just get up. For the next week everything seems to be running smooth until one morning I call him and the phone goes right into voice mail. I leave him a message, for what I don't know, because he's not going to get the message until he wakes up, and that could be tomorrow for all I know. So, I just go to the house and bang on his door to get him up. Does he answer? Of course not. Meanwhile, I have the trainer calling me and telling me if this kid wants to ride for me, then he better get his ass up in the morning. He say's to me " I can't have this every other day". The trainer goes on to tell me that "I need to crap the whip". It's after 6am and I'm only up a couple of hours and I'm already fit to be tied. I leave the house and get a call about 2 hours later from him. Eureka! His excuse was that he was up all night because his mother in Puerto Rico had called him with some personal problems that she had with some guy she was dating. I said to him what the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China. I said you should of just stood up the whole night and went to work and then go take your nap.

All this nonsense for an apprentice that was lucky if he was riding 2 horses a day at another racetrack. Here's a trainer that wants to ride you on every horse he has (70 head and wins about 20% of his races) and all you have to do is show up and work in the morning. How difficult can this be? I'm saying to myself if this kid has problems now, can you imagine what's going to happen once he makes a pocketful of money? I could see already the kid is not mature enough for the sport. I spend hours trying to explain to the kid what it takes to become a successful jockey. You can see in his eyes, it's going through one ear and out the other. He thinks in his mind that he's all that and more, because some trainer wants to ride him on everything. That might be a good start but little does he know that the road ahead of him could be shortlived. Once his bug is over then the reality sets in. Some jocks just can't see the future. They only know what's in front of them at the moment. No direction!

When an apprentice has the bug it's the agents job to put him in the right places so that he or she can make a name for themselves. You try to expose the kid as much as you can. You do this by making sure the kid rides day and night if possible. You have to introduce him to everyone. In my case, the kid not only has problems getting up in the morning but also wanted to leave the track as soon as his work was done with that trainer. He would head to his car by 9:00am looking to go home. He would sneak out and try to avoid me. Of course, I would catch him before he left the gate and you could see from his eyes that I was becoming a pain in the neck. He would turn the car around (puss on his face) and then we would go meet some other trainers. Of course he had no interest and was always 20 feet behind me. He just didn't have the personality or motivation for the game. He had a hard time making conversation with trainers but could talk up a storm on his cell phone to his friends speaking with every Tom, Dick and Harry (none of it relating to building his career). I was desperately trying to help this boy's career but knew without his cooperation it's just not going to happen. You get to a point where you just have to let go. On top of all the nonsense that I went through, I heard through the grapevine that he was looking for another agent. When I confronted him about it, he denied it as most do. I told him if I don't make you happy all you have to do is tell me. I never gave up my source but he said to me "I here wrong, everything is good between us poppy and you best agent I ever had" in his latino voice. As an agent you just sense where this is all heading. I knew in my heart he already made the move but just didn't have the guts to tell me. I made it much easier for him and patted him on the chest and said to him good luck in your career son. I wish you all the best. He couldn't even look me straight in the eyes (dropped his head to the ground) and went about his business.

The best part of this story, is the trainer that has 70 something horses. He's only in it for himself and could care less about the career of an apprentice rider. He's notorious for riding the bug and lures you in because of the stock he has. What young apprentice wouldn't want to ride for a guy that wins a ton of races and has that many horses? I was reluctant from the start and really didn't want to do business with this trainer because I know this man's reputation. When I brought the kid up to the rail the first day introducing him to some trainers, the trainer with all these horses was sitting on the pony watching his horses train and immediately called us both over. He started to make small talk with the kid (informed him I was a great agent) and then asked the kid if he would work a horse after the break. The kid looked at me and I gave the kid the nod. After the work was over (while I was conducting other business) he told the kid to report to work at 6am the next day. I immediately told the kid we have to be really careful here and do our best not to get caught up in his barn all morning. I told the kid it's ok to ride for this guy and help him out a little in the morning but you also want to ride for other people. I went on the explain to the kid that this man will make it as difficult as possible for him not to ride for anyone else. Of course the kid tells me "don't worry, whatever you tell me to do I will do". "I'm behind you and will stand by whatever you feel is right for me".

That same day we were taking entries and the trainer immediately (without even watching him ride in a race) started to give me calls for the day. He's the type of trainer that wants things his way, meaning he expects first call from the agent. He expects the agent to sit back, shut up, and do whatever he says. Most agents don't mind this because when you ride for this type of outfit you are going to make a good living. It's easy money! On the other hand, if the agent really wants the young apprentice to succeed then this is not the right way to go. Many agents just don't care about the young apprentice and will take the money each week for the whole entire year and then move on to grab another apprentice the following year. For me it's much different. I like to sleep at night with a good conscious mind. I have a child around the same age of many of these young apprentice riders and I know that I wouldn't want this to happen to my own child.

At that point, (when the trainer wanted to do business with me), I knew I was caught inbetween a rock and a hard place. If you have a rider that is loyal and willing to follow your direction then it's possible for things to work out. On the other hand, if you have a young apprentice that's only interested in making money and nothing else (meaning his career) then you can't really do what's right for the kid. I already had mixed feelings about the kid from the first couple of day's that I worked with him and knew this was not going to be an easy task but I tried my best to make it work.

The trainer knew right from the start what my main goal was for the kid but he was going to make sure that I wouldn't succeed with this kid. He knew the kid was not mentally matured because he's dealt with plenty of jock's like this in the past. His motive was to get me out of the picture and he did just that. He made the kid an offer he couldn't refuse. He told the kid "if you don't get rid of your agent, then I'm not going to ride you on any of my horses". Here's a young kid that doesn't have a clue to what's going on and what's going to happen but he's easily influenced by the trainer's offer.

During the short time, I worked with the kid, I managed to ride and win for a couple of other trainers besides this trainer. Some of these trainers wanted to continue business with me but it was hard to give this trainer's calls in the book when the other trainer refused to give me entries until entries were almost closed. Even though, I knew every horse in his barn and knew where he was heading, I still couldn't take the risk because I wasn't sure if he was definately going into the race. It was too much of a guessing game. He wouldn't cooperate with me because he just didn't want the kid to ride for anybody else. Don't forget this type of trainer gets new horses all the time from other places where the horses can't compete. So, as much as I know, it's still difficult to work this way.

Trainers don't want to hear from an agent if so and so goes into the race then I can't ride your horse. Many of the trainers don't want to get caught up with with this nonsense. I can't blame them. I would approach this trainer and politely asked him to work with me. I asked him to give me entries earlier and allow the kid to work horses for other clients. He chose not too! I would have the kid setup for a worker at a certain time and call this trainer to let him know in advance that I needed the kid to work a horse for someone else but he just wouldn't answer the phone. He made my job as difficult as possible. On top of it, he expected two programs on his desk every racing day and I had to turn foal papers in constantly to horse ID and retrieve in-slips for horses that coming in from the farm. He expected me to be his secretary (and was serious about it) and told me if I didn't have the time, that I should go out and hire my own secretary to do this hsi dirty work. He didn't care I had another jockey that I was responsible for.

The end result the kid has another agent but this other agent can't produce other business for the kid anyway. The kid continues to win at a high percentage only for this trainer,(making a ton of money) and handing his 25% to another agent that didn't even know this kid ever existed. This was a kid that couldn't rub two nickels together at one time. He was on the balls of his ass. He has a couple of months left of his apprenticeship so, he better enjoy the ride for now. Will he ride once his apprenticeship is over? It's possible, but I can assure you that it won't be for this trainer and I highly doubt he will be riding for any good people in the future. This is one of the reasons why apprentice rider's don't make it when they lose the bug.

Unfortunately for me, I paid the price for now but, I will continue on and God willing the right apprentice will come into my life. I learned a valuable lesson from this and will learn from the experience. The agent's job is extremely tough as you can see.

Best regards,
Joe

[Mineshaft]

The one thing that ticks me off about agents is what Joe explained about double calls.


You call the agent and enter your horse and the agent knows he already has a call in that race but doesnt tell you. Overnight comes out and you dont have the rider you want. You call agent and ask him why Johnny is not on the horse. He says i had another call in the race or at the last minute a trainer entered this horse that i won on last time. For christs sake just call and tell me hey i have to ride this horse i will undertsand. I dont want to find out when the overnite comes out. If you cant ride for me thats fine just tell me so i can line up another rider.





And the number one reason why riders dont show up for work in the morning:

1-Johnny was sick this morning. If i could have a dollar every time i heard this i could retire now.

[v j stauffer]

Agents that occasionally don't have trainers mad at them have no buisness.

[lamboguy]

sometimes an agent has to travel around in a tank. he gets it from all ends. don't you think that trainers and owner know agents lie to them.

the best agent i know alive today is richard dupass, agent for cornielio velesquez. now there is a jockey that can't ride a little bit. he got that kid in the best barns in the country. bill mott, barclay tagg, kiram, not first call but in there, dutrow. on and on. the reason why is everyone loves richie.

now on the reverse side of the coin there are guys that underachieve for their riders, i won't mention them.

[ralph_the_cat]

Some jocks are babies (that's why many don't succeed).

The whole agent-jockey-trainer thing is such a circus at most tracks... then you work with or even just watch a top agent,top rider and maybe a top trainer work together, and they make it seem so simple... people really have no idea how much of a circus it is when you are dealing with jockeys, trainers, and agents that arent sitting top 5 in standing at tracks with large fields... sooo many horses, sooo many trainers, sooo many jockeys, sooo many agents, sooo many excuses from all ends... The name calling, the back stabbing, the excuses, the anxiety, the rewards, the loses, Im surprised they never got this crap on video for HRTV sound bites, might even make it all the way to Jerry Springer:D ... Theres so many stories Id like to share with you some of you, but we'll save it for another day... I imagine some of you like Joe have just as many... the best was when a family member of mine shipped a horse back to waterford park back in the day after running a huge race at another track, the jockey from waterford and his agent wanted the mount back so bad, when the family member of mine was walking over to the racing office the jockey was following him over begging for the mount back, he grabbed the foal papers off my family member that was in route to deliver the papers to the office and took off running with them... lol, classic story, with much more detail, but Ill leave it at that, such a circus at times... Mountainman, if you read this let me know, you would get a chuckle out of who the jock was...

[magwell]

sometimes an agent has to travel around in a tank. he gets it from all ends. don't you think that trainers and owner know agents lie to them.

the best agent i know alive today is richard dupass, agent for cornielio velesquez. now there is a jockey that can't ride a little bit. he got that kid in the best barns in the country. bill mott, barclay tagg, kiram, not first call but in there, dutrow. on and on. the reason why is everyone loves richie.

now on the reverse side of the coin there are guys that underachieve for their riders, i won't mention them. Cornelio is more than capable a jock, but your right about Depass he is as good a agent as there is in the country.

[jotb]

The one thing that ticks me off about agents is what Joe explained about double calls.


You call the agent and enter your horse and the agent knows he already has a call in that race but doesnt tell you. Overnight comes out and you dont have the rider you want. You call agent and ask him why Johnny is not on the horse. He says i had another call in the race or at the last minute a trainer entered this horse that i won on last time. For christs sake just call and tell me hey i have to ride this horse i will undertsand. I dont want to find out when the overnite comes out. If you cant ride for me thats fine just tell me so i can line up another rider.

And the number one reason why riders dont show up for work in the morning:

1-Johnny was sick this morning. If i could have a dollar every time i heard this i could retire now.

Hello Mineshaft:

Agent's can sometimes avoid this problem with double calls but sometimes they can't. Let me explain. At my track we have the preference date system. In order to establish a date for your horse, you must have a set of foal papers held in the racing office. Once the papers are on file with the racing office, then you have what's called an ENTRY DATE. Once the horse runs a race then the date that he or she ran is now called the RUN DATE. If you enter in a race and your horse makes the body of the race and come race day, you decide to scr from the race, then your new ENTRY DATE is establish 7 day's later from the scr date as long as you leave the papers on file with the racing office.

The above can be a problem for agents because the horses with the best date are the horses that will make the body of the race. If you are entering a horse in a 4KNW2L chances are the race will have upwards of 30 horses trying to get in the race. If a trainer calls me for the race the day before and wants my rider for that particuliar spot, I really can't give the call to him at that moment unless I'm positive, I don't have another horse for the race. I would usually mark it down in my book and ask the trainer if I can get back to him in a couple of hours or even very early the next morning (the day for entries) if the trainer is okay with that. If I have another horse for the race marked in the book then it's my job to figure out which horse will make the body of the race by comparing preference dates. I also have to be careful for horses that my jockey has been riding that might drop in class (maybe from a 6KNW2L or 10KNW2L ). Sometimes my jockey might have rode a horse that ran in a 4KNW3L but is eligible for the 4KNW2L.

The main idea is to try and get your jockey to ride the best horse for that race, but you also must be careful not to walk away without any horse for the race (because of the date system). You have to call every trainer that's a possibility for the race to see if they are going to enter in that spot. Many things can go wrong prior to entries. A trainer that is pointing towards the spot may not be able to enter because the horse is not doing well or the owner forces a trainer to run a horse back to quickly. Many times it's a last minute decision with the trainer because he's having a problem getting in touch with the owner (out of town on business or vacation) or in some cases trainers just forget to enter (didn't realize there was a race in the book). Then you have some trainer that might just enter a horse and put your jock on (a horse you never rode) and the horse is live. The agent is employed by the jockey and the agent's job is to make sure that jock is riding the best horse for that race. You don't make money unless you win races.

The problem with many agents (why they get in trouble) is because they don't do their homework and that's why they get caught up. You don't take 2 calls for a race when you know damn well both horses will get in. They will take several calls for a race and then when the overnight comes out call the trainer up with some excuse why they can't ride the horse or try to get their other rider on the horse. Some agents won't even call the trainer back because they know they did wrong and the trainer thinks the jock is riding the horse, only to find out from the clerk of scales (minutes before scr. time) that he needs a jockey for the race. This is nothing but bad business and it happens every day.

Joe

[Mineshaft]

Hello Mineshaft:

Agent's can sometimes avoid this problem with double calls but sometimes they can't. Let me explain. At my track we have the preference date system. In order to establish a date for your horse, you must have a set of foal papers held in the racing office. Once the papers are on file with the racing office, then you have what's called an ENTRY DATE. Once the horse runs a race then the date that he or she ran is now called the RUN DATE. If you enter in a race and your horse makes the body of the race and come race day, you decide to scr from the race, then your new ENTRY DATE is establish 7 day's later from the scr date as long as you leave the papers on file with the racing office.

The above can be a problem for agents because the horses with the best date are the horses that will make the body of the race. If you are entering a horse in a 4KNW2L chances are the race will have upwards of 30 horses trying to get in the race. If a trainer calls me for the race the day before and wants my rider for that particuliar spot, I really can't give the call to him at that moment unless I'm positive, I don't have another horse for the race. I would usually mark it down in my book and ask the trainer if I can get back to him in a couple of hours or even very early the next morning (the day for entries) if the trainer is okay with that. If I have another horse for the race marked in the book then it's my job to figure out which horse will make the body of the race by comparing preference dates. I also have to be careful for horses that my jockey has been riding that might drop in class (maybe from a 6KNW2L or 10KNW2L ). Sometimes my jockey might have rode a horse that ran in a 4KNW3L but is eligible for the 4KNW2L.

The main idea is to try and get your jockey to ride the best horse for that race, but you also must be careful not to walk away without any horse for the race (because of the date system). You have to call every trainer that's a possibility for the race to see if they are going to enter in that spot. Many things can go wrong prior to entries. A trainer that is pointing towards the spot may not be able to enter because the horse is not doing well or the owner forces a trainer to run a horse back to quickly. Many times it's a last minute decision with the trainer because he's having a problem getting in touch with the owner (out of town on business or vacation) or in some cases trainers just forget to enter (didn't realize there was a race in the book). Then you have some trainer that might just enter a horse and put your jock on (a horse you never rode) and the horse is live. The agent is employed by the jockey and the agent's job is to make sure that jock is riding the best horse for that race. You don't make money unless you win races.

The problem with many agents (why they get in trouble) is because they don't do their homework and that's why they get caught up. You don't take 2 calls for a race when you know damn well both horses will get in. They will take several calls for a race and then when the overnight comes out call the trainer up with some excuse why they can't ride the horse or try to get their other rider on the horse. Some agents won't even call the trainer back because they know they did wrong and the trainer thinks the jock is riding the horse, only to find out from the clerk of scales (minutes before scr. time) that he needs a jockey for the race. This is nothing but bad business and it happens every day.

Joe




Joe,

I know how the entry dates work. I was getting at how an agent will take my entry knowing he cant ride my horse. He takes the entry anyway knowing damn good and well he cant ride my horse because hes committed to another horse. Well if hes committed just tell me when i call you. But he doesnt tell me and then when the overnite comes out i dont have the rider i wanted. That pisses me off. Instead i have the agents backup rider. He could of just said i cant ride your horse can my other rider ride him. I would of said yes or no. Just a little repsect is all i want. Now i have his backup rider who i might not want when i could of gotten another rider that i liked had he told me up front that he couldnt ride my horse.

This happens all the time at the lower level tracks but i doubt it happens at the major tracks.

[jotb]

Joe,

I know how the entry dates work. I was getting at how an agent will take my entry knowing he cant ride my horse. He takes the entry anyway knowing damn good and well he cant ride my horse because hes committed to another horse. Well if hes committed just tell me when i call you. But he doesnt tell me and then when the overnite comes out i dont have the rider i wanted. That pisses me off. Instead i have the agents backup rider. He could of just said i cant ride your horse can my other rider ride him. I would of said yes or no. Just a little repsect is all i want. Now i have his backup rider who i might not want when i could of gotten another rider that i liked had he told me up front that he couldnt ride my horse.

This happens all the time at the lower level tracks but i doubt it happens at the major tracks.

Hello Mineshaft:

My last paragraph stated exactly what you just said. You know what I can't understand. You knew the agent was not honest with you. You knew you were disrespected. You felt pissed off. With all of this going on, why in the world would you allow the agent to put his other jockey on your horse? You gave the agent exactly what he wanted. The agent made money with your horse and another horse in the race. The agent won all away around. Why not just do business with another agent? The more you owners and trainers keep putting up with that nonsense the more it's going to happen.

Joe

[Mineshaft]

Its happened in the past but now i tell the agent if you cant ride call me before entries are drawn and i will give you another rider. Because another one of there excuses were "Well i didnt have your number so i couldnt call you". Typical bullshit excuse from an agent.


I started asking the agent when i called "Are you open in this race? I let it be known from the start i didnt want any fu ckups with the entry and rider.

[ralph_the_cat]

I gave up on calling an agent ahead of time before entering... its just more phone calls that get no where... I dont know how many times you call an agent and they say ya Im free, and then they call you back and say i cant ride so and so just called me and I have to ride that horse, and then you enter and the horse he is suppose to ride is number 13 on the also-list and you're the #3, he could have rode anyways... the agent ends up screw'n himself... thats why sharp agents are even aware of the horse, if its a new one with a fresh date etc.... lots to handle... most agents are at race tracks where field size is never a concern, but the agents who worked at tracks with loaded AE lists know where Im coming from...


I try and put it in their ears but dont find it to be as important as the agent thinks, I just throw names on them anymore, if they're free, great, if they call and say they cant ride, I handle it on my own... or else they'll list Pee wee Herman for all I know... `then some even get mad, well why dont you use my #2 guy since we've been working that horse for you.... I say no, because then before you know its their #3 guy riding the horse instead thats 1 for 67 for the last 3 years... I use to play it by the books, and think that that was best, I use to feel like if a rider worked a horse out for me I owed him a mount the next race even if he rides someone elses horse this race, but I eventually felt as soon as he decided not to ride one time, I dont owe him anything... I use to go insane over chasing riders and agents...

The best part is when you dont even owe anything to a rider because maybe he isnt getting on the horse for you but he ran a couple 2nds and 3rds, and then you switch riders to try something else, some agents usually handle it well, but Ive seen a couple riders just flip out... one jockey was putting in some terrible rides, and then after not showing up one morning after we had stuff lined up, I switched riders the day of the race, had to pay an extra $50 but I was sending him a message and getting a better rider at the same time... dont you know the sob that never returns calls, calls me 3 times until I finally answer and he goes off on me... I said, "What do I owe you? What have you done for me lately? exactly, I dont owe you shit"... click... its a circus... I give up on agents and riders so easily anymore, they can easily be replaced... unless you're a big stable with a big rider, you just have to go with whos hot, or else you'll both go into a slump, sometimes switching riders is all the spark you really need... and then going back to a rider 6 months later can re-spark things in a positive manner....

[jotb]

Not sure if you guy's are owners and trainers. Here's something you can do. The next time an agent says he's open for the race (if the business is conducted on the grounds) then have the agent sign his name next to the race condition in the condition book. If he signs the book then all well and dandy but if he's not willing then just go out and retrieve another jockey. If he doesn't honor the call (after signing the book) then bring the agent to the stewards. Agent's do get fined for improper business on the racetrack.

If you are seeking a jockey and must do so by the phone you can do this. If you speak over the phone and the agent gives you the call over the phone then have the agent confirm the call with a follow-up phone message. If you can't reach the agent (because they don't answer) then you leave them one message and they must call you back within a certain amount of time (within reason). If you don't hear from the agent right away or within that time, chances are he's putting you on the pay no mind list. At that point, you then reach out for another jockey.

Joe