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View Full Version : Hollywood's Race 7 - Gooch's Dream 2 nd?


Greyfox
12-04-2008, 08:31 PM
In Hollywood's Race 7 today, it appeared visually on the TV screen, that #2 Gooch's Dream won the race.

An inquiry ensued.
The Stewards ruled : There was no change in the order of finish.
The Photo appeared to show #2 Gooch's Dream winning.
The replay suggested # 2 Gooch's Dream won by at least 1/2 a head.

The result was posted. # 6 Kbello Win. Gooch's Dream second.
I didn't believe it then. I didn't believe it after the replay.
Did anyone else form the same opinion?

ENT222
12-04-2008, 09:03 PM
the nose being seen in the photo is that of kbello, it is difficult to see but that is the case, color variation of each horse distinguishes the noses apart. There should have been a disqualification of the 2 in that race easily for interference with the 4 in the turn and the 3 but there wasn't. Also Bejarano is not riding like he should, because if he was he wins that photo.

cj's dad
12-04-2008, 09:11 PM
I wish 46 zilzal were still on board:( ; he would be able to explain that you just don't understand how a photo works and how if you would only pay attention you would have clearly seen the winner the way he did.:D

Dick Powell
12-04-2008, 09:22 PM
What I didn't understand is why the photo that was shown has the finish line after they hit the wire. Go to racereplays.com to see it. TVG showed it today but they were running out of time for the segment and rushed away. Also, why did they take so long to post the photo? Yes, there was an inquiry going on but with the digital technology that is used it should not have taken more than 60 seconds. They waited all through the inquiry, then posted the results of the photo and announced that there would be no change in the running order. Very strange.

DeanT
12-04-2008, 09:45 PM
It was weird and I agree Grey. I skipped that race to lose money on a different tracks' race, but when I looked back at the photo I thought Rod Serling must have taken the picture.

Fingal
12-04-2008, 09:47 PM
The photo from Hollywood Park's Web Site. ( I wish they had shown the mirror image too. ) This way it's :ThmbDown:

http://www.hollywoodpark.com/racinginfo/photofinishes/photo_finishes_120408.html

thruncy
12-04-2008, 09:50 PM
:In Hollywood's Race 7 today, it appeared visually on the TV screen, that #2 Gooch's Dream won the race.

An inquiry ensued.
The Stewards ruled : There was no change in the order of finish.
The Photo appeared to show #2 Gooch's Dream winning.
The replay suggested # 2 Gooch's Dream won by at least 1/2 a head.

The result was posted. # 6 Kbello Win. Gooch's Dream second.
I didn't believe it then. I didn't believe it after the replay.
Did anyone else form the same opinion? Have never seen anything like it. Simon of TVG said only the gray NOSE of the winner appears across the wire and is in FRONT of the other nose which is ALSO across the wire! And is attached to a bay head! In addition, just like in the Taxi Fleet race, the stewards are "lettin' em play." This time Sorensen was almost the victim. Let's see if Talamo gets days now. Apparently Bejarano did not....

rrbauer
12-04-2008, 10:04 PM
I was rooting for the lone speed horse but thought the deuce got there easy. Had 'em both in P4 and got the better price so not to complain...BUT!

The photo makes it even crazier....photo for PLACE?

JustRalph
12-04-2008, 10:05 PM
The photo from Hollywood Park's Web Site. ( I wish they had shown the mirror image too. ) This way it's :ThmbDown:

http://www.hollywoodpark.com/racinginfo/photofinishes/photo_finishes_120408.html

why in the Sam Hell would they post a photo that small? Give me a break HOLLYWOOD! Hire somebody who knows how to resize a damn photo............ :bang:

Vic! Whisper in somebody's ear!!

bigmack
12-04-2008, 10:31 PM
I slowed it down to 5% at the end and if the finish is where the red meets the white on the rail it was another head bob optical delusion.
zqe8JuJMItA


http://www.hollywoodpark.com/racinginfo/photofinishes/pics/race7.120408.jpg

Greyfox
12-04-2008, 10:47 PM
Good work Bigmack.

The slow down is more convincing, but I guess my mind's eye is still insisting on the # 2. Even in the stop photo, every feature of the horse plus jockey is ahead.
If it was a head bob it was a head bob. Good work.

JustRalph
12-04-2008, 10:52 PM
Good Stuff Mack!!!

bigmack
12-04-2008, 11:02 PM
DO you always "take a shot at it" or if it's too close to call you say so?
Not always but most of the time. I will say " I think" or "Maybe" as my out though. .

Further evidence that Mr. Stauffer calls 'em like he thinks he see's 'em.
Or something like that. :rolleyes:
CdHp7V15OLc

DeanT
12-04-2008, 11:49 PM
Bonzai Bigmack.

Awesome work.

Imriledup
12-05-2008, 01:32 AM
Lets see the Win photo. AND, the mirror image photo.

Mack posted the place photo, where's the photo for win?

bigmack
12-05-2008, 01:43 AM
Mack posted the place photo, where's the photo for win?
That be it. Whoever posted 'place' for HP done a boo-boo.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/12_4_08_22_39_08.png

Imriledup
12-05-2008, 01:49 AM
That be it. Whoever posted 'place' for HP done a boo-boo.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/12_4_08_22_39_08.png

That's actually the place photo because there is a nose that is shown after the wire. In win photos, there's nothing after the wire, but in this photo, there is part of a nose after the line.

Imriledup
12-05-2008, 01:55 AM
Here's another factor.

if mack is correct and that IS the win photo (and someone mistakely put PLACE) than this is a dead heat. Forget the inside horse for a second...........in a win photo, if your nose is on the wire, you win. Gooch's Dream's nose is touching the wire in the WIN photo, how can he not be at least a dead heat winner?

Unless, this is the place photo.

If it IS the place photo, we need to see a photo where the winning horse is touching the wire and the 2nd place is behind the wire. In this photo, Gooch is TOUCHING THE WIRE IN THE WIN PHOTO. Unless they can produce a photo that shows Gooch's dream's nose NOT on the wire, i'm going to believe this is either a DH, or an outright win for GD.

Cangamble
12-05-2008, 06:53 PM
What it looks like to me is someone ordered a place photo by mistake, and the 6 won the place photo and was given the victory by mistake.

I don't know how the procedure really works, but this is the only plausible explanation I can see.

Dick Powell
12-05-2008, 07:27 PM
What still doesn't make any sense is that the win photo is when the first horse trips the camera. The place photo is when the second horse trips the camera so this "place" photo clearly indicates that the 2's nose has already gone past where the place photo would have been tripped. Wouldn't he be the winner?

Can you imagine if you had the 2 in the pick six and you lost out because of this? The lone pick six winner yesterday got $326K. If anyone had the other five races and the 6 in race seven, I think they might be calling their lawyers after seeing the "place" photo.

cj
12-05-2008, 08:27 PM
There is definitely something amiss. There is simply no way the 6 horse won that race.

banacek
12-05-2008, 09:57 PM
New picture on the Hollywood site:

http://www.hollywoodpark.com/racinginfo/photofinishes/pics/race7w.120408.jpg

Greyfox
12-05-2008, 10:26 PM
banacek, Thank you for posting the new picture.
New picture, no background check.
It always bothers me when the track provides a picture without background references.
After paying out, it seems to me they had to come out with some kind of win picture. Undoubtedly, they've had e-mails re: this outcome.

Speaking of mirrors as a reference, why are they provided at HP for some races and not for others in these photos ?http://www.hollywoodpark.com/racinginfo/photofinishes/photo_finishes_120408.html

Imriledup
12-05-2008, 10:46 PM
Its just an altered picture....they had a day to figure out how to make it look good after their screwup.

bigmack
12-05-2008, 11:05 PM
New picture on top. Yesterdays below.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/99-3.jpg

This is turning into a caper. They had the wherewithal to change the pic and put 'win' and they don't post the mirror image on a finish that close?

ryesteve
12-06-2008, 09:24 AM
Looking at the new photo, it now looks like the piece of nose hitting the wire does belong to the 6... but yeah, the mirror image would've helped a lot...

JohnGalt1
12-06-2008, 09:51 AM
I went to my local track and put my hollywood bets in and went home at 2 Cental Time.

Yesterday I checked the results and was dissapointed I lost the pick 4 by a nose as I won the other 3 races.

Thanks guys for making me feel worse.

I'll get over it in 5 minutes---I always do.

rrbauer
12-06-2008, 09:56 AM
This, in my mind, is the kind of issue that HANA should be on, to at least get an explanation from the placing judges and to see the "official" photos that they used to back their placing decision. As it stands, it makes for shaky integrity at Hollywood Park.

Imriledup
12-06-2008, 10:59 AM
This, in my mind, is the kind of issue that HANA should be on, to at least get an explanation from the placing judges and to see the "official" photos that they used to back their placing decision. As it stands, it makes for shaky integrity at Hollywood Park.

Judge Christiansen was on TVG to talk about this situation yesterday. A few things he said were alarming to anyone who is trusting these group of judges to do the right things with your money going forward in So Cal.

First of all, he just 'seemed' clueless. Todd asked him the first question and he just sat there with a blank stare (for what seemed like an eternity) before he uttered DUH. My first reaction was "i wouldn't want this guy driving behind me too close in his car" As soon as he was asked a question, he fiddled with his glasses. I rewound the tape and tried to figure out why he needed to adjust his glasses, as they didn't fall down his face prior to him fixing them. Seems like some sort of 'tell' to me. Why fix your glasses if they don't need fixing? That was alarming to me.

Second, he said that the mirror image did have a photo, but you 'cant determine anything'. Huh. ok. He never said why they didn't show that 'bad photo' to the public. Even if they can't determine anything, i think the public has a right to see it.'

Third, he completely dismissed the idea that the 6 horse drifted out. He said it wasn't a factor. Why was it not a factor when they looked at it for over 10 minutes? Also, why no jockey or trainer objection from Bejarano or Machowsky? Bejarano never got on the phone to tell the judges that the winner drifted out 3 paths under a left handed whip and bumped his horse off his stride with a few strides to go before the wire. The jocks were still riding when the bump occured.

Then, at the ending of the interview, he sort of laughed in the face of the public saying that 'we never hear from the guy who bet on the 6'. Then he made fun of a guy who said that he was 'watching on computer' and the 2 horse won. He went on, laughingly, to tell the guy that "no, i have the photo right here"

Funny, the photo posted on the day of the races was a PLACE photo. No win photo was shown and and no mirror image was shown.

I love guys who appear 90 years old with coke bottle glasses making decisions on bettors lives and having to review photos where one billionth of a millimeter can determine the difference between winning and losing.

Cangamble
12-06-2008, 11:33 AM
Saratoga Guy on the Del Mar Board explains how photos are made:

This isn't to comment on the merits of judging this particular photo -- but to comment on photo-finish pictures in general... At least some people in this thread don't understand the technology.

It's not a series of pictures -- but one continuous picture showing one point in space (the finish line) over time.

Everything in the picture is at the finish line. It's not the finish line and horses still approaching the finish line. All the horses in the photo are -- literally -- shown on the finish line!

It's a funny concept for people because we're used to seeing still photos of a moment in time. But a photo-finish picture shows the finish line over time.

For example,

http://www.hollywoodpark.com/racinginfo/photofinishes/pics/race5.120408.jpg

in this WIN photo from Race 5, the nose of the #1 (on the inside) is on the finish line -- but so is the nose of the #6! In fact so is the tail of the #6!

The picture shows the #1 hitting the finish line first -- and then the #8 a split second later, and then (if a horse length = 1/5 of a second) about a fifth of a second later the #3 and then #6 a split second after that.

How is this accomplished? Digital technology is a little different -- but the principal is the same and it's easier to visual thinking back to film.

The lens of the camera is focused precisely on the finish line -- the film however is moving behind that lens at the same speed as the horses. That's why the track surface is blurred.

So again, there isn't a series of still pictures. And there aren't separate WIN/ PLACE /SHOW pictures.

There is only one continuous picture showing precisely the finish line over the few seconds it takes for the horses to cross the wire.

The judges then move the image of the white line across the picture and the first nose they come to is the winner -- the second is the place horse, the third the show horse, and so on. Anywhere they place the white line IS showing the finish line.
http://www.dmtc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34009&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

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To me it still looks like they got the photo for place instead of win and gave the win to the winner of the place photo.