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View Full Version : Tracks Without Any Sort Of Pre-race selection show


Nmytwenties
12-04-2008, 07:40 PM
It seems like a list of tracks that don't have some sort of pre-race selection show would be shorter than the ones that do as most seems to have jumped on the bandwagon. I would count tracks that have a extended show at the beginning of a card but not one in between races as one that does. But I wouldn't count a track announcer going over changes on the card which I would hope every track did.

I think the guy at Turf Paridise,Howard Hong, seems to really have some impressive skill. I am sure the majority of people on here are like me, we don't let individual race selections be affected by the on air selection people as you really have to trust your own skill when it comes down to it. Though I do think that some can educate you more than others on things to look for at the particular track in the short and long term (Mark and Nancy at MNR for example) and they can also sway track patrons that may have less skill than others and who are looking for help and this can effect odds.

Anyway here is a list starter.

-Portland Meadows
-River Downs - only has one on select days
-Charles Town -I am not certain on this one
-Alb - Not sure on this one either but I am more certain than on CT
- Philly Park- Keith Jones selects three races to select picks at the beginning of the card but I am surprised this high handle track doesn't have a selection show in between every race.
-Not sure what Colonial Downs will do in 2009 as they let Derby Bill go.
-I can't comment on smaller tracks in Nebraska and other tracks that are not available on most simulcasts menus at tracks across the country (BRD,Boi,Man,WRD,western canadian tracks) but I would assume that they probably don't.

Anyway I am sure some of you can correct me on any of my mistakes and add to this if you feel like it.

turfnsport
12-04-2008, 08:19 PM
At CT it is Jeff Gilleas. He does a pretty good job, very basic info and four picks per race.

stu
12-04-2008, 08:42 PM
Albuquerque's show is co-hosted by Eric Alwan, the track announcer

dave the horseman
12-05-2008, 02:33 PM
I cringe when I am at the track, love a horse, only to hear Keith Jones pick it. He's always the kiss of death. Good race caller, no so good handicapper, imho.

Alyblakester
12-05-2008, 03:07 PM
Asher & Byrne do a great job for Churchill in their pre-race show.

Do you guys like the gentleman and lady who talk incessantly at Mountaineer between races? No other track has so much chatter but, in a way, I like how they hash it out, almost thinking outloud in a private conversation.

NTamm1215
12-05-2008, 09:10 PM
The NYRA feed moved up a great deal when Andy Serling joined the telecast. You can see the improvement, at least in his delivery and the formulation of his argument, in Jason Blewitt since Andy came along. It is the only track where I actually listen to the pre-race prattle.

NT

njcurveball
12-05-2008, 09:45 PM
I cringe when I am at the track, love a horse, only to hear Keith Jones pick it. He's always the kiss of death. Good race caller, no so good handicapper, imho.

Just for fun, keep track of all his picks and all your picks. I would be curious how you do when he doesn't pick your horse.

Even better, I wonder how HE does when you do not pick his horse. Maybe you are the kiss of death. ;)

jballscalls
12-05-2008, 10:54 PM
We dont do a show at Portland Meadows and our handle is way up this season, maybe we're on to something LOL

dave the horseman
12-05-2008, 11:34 PM
Just for fun, keep track of all his picks and all your picks. I would be curious how you do when he doesn't pick your horse.

Even better, I wonder how HE does when you do not pick his horse. Maybe you are the kiss of death.


good point curveball, :) I'll do that, but it makes me sleep better at night to have someone to blame :)

Nmytwenties
12-06-2008, 05:33 PM
Despite the fact that they don't have a pre-race show, I personally enjoy betting Portland. Magna has done a good job scheduling the track on days where other competition is not overwhelming and that has to help handle. No matter how good a pre-race show is, at times a bettor can only watch so many as some go on simultaneously when many tracks are running. And I hope that making that point doesn't start rants about how there are too many tracks...lol

Certainly the concept has evolved quite a bit from 10 years ago when few tracks had the concept of a pre race show. My favorite show,not so much for the picks, would still have to be the Beulah Twin show at Beulah, it seems like only one is making an appearence this year.

mountainman
12-06-2008, 05:57 PM
Asher & Byrne do a great job for Churchill in their pre-race show.

Do you guys like the gentleman and lady who talk incessantly at Mountaineer between races? No other track has so much chatter but, in a way, I like how they hash it out, almost thinking outloud in a private conversation.

Nancy and I just keep it real. What you see on cam is our actual personalities. Sometimes I'm an extremely hardcore handicapper, sometimes a cutup. I can't fake anything , nor would I try. Neither would Nancy. One thing we do undertake intentionally is to delve a bit deeper in our analysis than most other shows choose to. I've never been a big fan of superficial analysis. The players can see for themselves that the "1 is consistent, the 2 has some speed, the three takes a drop..etc etc"....So if a person bothers to watch us at all, we assume they want more depth. So far, our approach has succeeded beyond all expectations. The popularity of our show attests to that.

Nmytwenties
12-06-2008, 06:37 PM
To Mark (Mountainman)

As much as that track frustrates me as I just never have been able to master the place, I find your and Nancy's commentary to be incredibly informative. Once I make my selections, they are set in stone on almost all occasions. But your and Nancy's commentary sticks with me more than any others the next time I look at a Mountain card. You both really know your stuff their at the Mountain and I admire the pride you both seem to have in your operation there. Your track announcer, Mr. Berry, is another good thing your track has going for it.

I also find some of your commentary to be very funny. Just one criticism though, give those poor little West Virgini breds a break, they know they are not top of the line runners on the whole....lol ... Whenever one of your favorite races is carded, restricted WV breds, I always start the countdown to a funny comment on your part... In reality its really not all that critical as I think I would actually miss it a little if I didn't hear it. Keep up the good work.

strapper
12-06-2008, 06:44 PM
I thought Mike Diliberto did a fine job in his pre-race show when he was working for FG w/ the now rather infamous Vince Marinello. Mike's father, Buddy D. was a local legend in the Crescent City. Last I heard Mike was a jockey agent but not sure if he still is.

mountainman
12-06-2008, 09:23 PM
To Mark (Mountainman)

As much as that track frustrates me as I just never have been able to master the place, I find your and Nancy's commentary to be incredibly informative. Once I make my selections, they are set in stone on almost all occasions. But your and Nancy's commentary sticks with me more than any others the next time I look at a Mountain card. You both really know your stuff their at the Mountain and I admire the pride you both seem to have in your operation there. Your track announcer, Mr. Berry, is another good thing your track has going for it.

I also find some of your commentary to be very funny. Just one criticism though, give those poor little West Virgini breds a break, they know they are not top of the line runners on the whole....lol ... Whenever one of your favorite races is carded, restricted WV breds, I always start the countdown to a funny comment on your part... In reality its really not all that critical as I think I would actually miss it a little if I didn't hear it. Keep up the good work.

I'm not a proponent of state-bred subsidies. In general, they reward mediocrity and enrich a select few. Believe me, persons who advocate restricted races have no regard whatsoever for the product or the players. Such programs are bullied through by political clout and born of self-interest. I've drawn heat for my irreverent attitude toward state-bred races, and that's something I'm proud of. I have, however, toned my remarks down pertaining to the wv bred program. Since we must accept it, I hope it flourishes, as that would only improve our product. And I HAVE praised certain
wv-bred races at mnr. It's my job to be objective.

sandpit
12-06-2008, 11:00 PM
I thought Mike Diliberto did a fine job in his pre-race show when he was working for FG w/ the now rather infamous Vince Marinello. Mike's father, Buddy D. was a local legend in the Crescent City. Last I heard Mike was a jockey agent but not sure if he still is.

I believe you are correct, he is a jocks agent. He deserved better than he got when FG replaced him with the young lady, even though I can "see" why they did it. Mike was wonderful with his on-air stuff, and is also one of the all-time great storytellers. He knows everyone in New Orleans and but is as humble as a man could be.

Nmytwenties
12-06-2008, 11:10 PM
---MountainmanI do recall you being the ONLY pre race show host who I have ever heard actually say that a particular race was not a good race to bet. This was two months or so ago. As a bettor who prides myself in being selective on what races I bet, a very underrated thing in this sport in my opinion, I had a lot of respect for that and that alone displays your objectivity.

the little guy
12-06-2008, 11:30 PM
Whether or not a race is a " good race to bet " is completely subjective. One horseplayer may correctly think a race is a bad betting race for him ( or her ) while other horseplayers will correctly think that very race is a great bet for them.

I make it pretty clear, on the air, when I'm betting and which races I have strong opinions about. But, I don't suggest to others that a race is necessarily a bad bet for them. That would be presumptuous and incorrect.

Part of the problem is that on-air personalities may not be bettors. This I don't particularly like. I feel if you are telling people to bet, you should be risking your money on the very horses you are touting, so to speak, as how can you expect them to believe in you if you don't believe in yourself.

George Sands
12-06-2008, 11:43 PM
I feel if you are telling people to bet, you should be risking your money on the very horses you are touting, so to speak, as how can you expect them to believe in you if you don't believe in yourself.

Does this also mean they should tell us how much money they are betting?

the little guy
12-06-2008, 11:47 PM
Does this also mean they should tell us how much money they are betting?


Does it?

boomman
12-06-2008, 11:52 PM
Although I have always previewed the feature race since our inception in our live on camera opening, we started a pre-race show this past season, and I thought Frank Reach did an excellent job of giving a lot of insight on the Yavapai Races. Although I can't remember ever saying on air that a race was unbettable, I have often said that a contentious full field was a great betting race, and certainly meant it each time I said it. I agree that "insight" is was players are looking for, not someone who just posts 1-2-3, with no explanation...........

Boomer

George Sands
12-07-2008, 12:06 AM
Does it?

By your reasoning, yes, because people need to know whether you believe in yourself, and $5 bets don't show a lot of self-belief.

mountainman
12-07-2008, 12:15 AM
---MountainmanI do recall you being the ONLY pre race show host who I have ever heard actually say that a particular race was not a good race to bet. This was two months or so ago. As a bettor who prides myself in being selective on what races I bet, a very underrated thing in this sport in my opinion, I had a lot of respect for that and that alone displays your objectivity.

Thanks man. The credit for our show goes to my boss Rosemary Williams. She wants the show aimed at the players, not the horsemen or any other faction. She ignores nitpickers and unflinchingly defends us when serious complaints arise.

the little guy
12-07-2008, 12:22 AM
By your reasoning, yes, because people need to know whether you believe in yourself, and $5 bets don't show a lot of self-belief.


That depends upon the person I suppose. I would generally agree with you, but it's a slippery slope for anyone to decide what amount is important to someone else, and I try not to criticize others for perhaps betting too little. Maybe $5 is a lot for some people and losing that hurts them. If that was the case, $5 would show a lot of belief in their opinion, thus maybe it's enough.

I don't pay attention to how much other people bet. It just doesn't interest me and is none of my business anyway. But, I guess it's probably fair to say that they should bet enough that losing causes them enough pain to be constantly reevaluating their handicapping.

mountainman
12-07-2008, 12:51 AM
In my opinion, it's presumptious and off the mark for an on -air analyst to describe their function as that of a "tout." I've been wagering since the age of 12, and one thing I've learned is that horseplayers have minds of their own. I'm there to supply local knowledge and stimulate the thought process, nothing more. We pitch our show primarily to seasoned players. Most Mountaineer enthusiasts are, after all, hardcore cases. True handicappers don't want touted, but many appreciate an informed discourse.

George Sands
12-07-2008, 12:52 AM
That depends upon the person I suppose. I would generally agree with you, but it's a slippery slope for anyone to decide what amount is important to someone else,

Yes, but in keeping with your original statement, shouldn't the viewer have the information and thus the option of factoring it in or disregarding it? In any event, you are now giving me visions of a pre-windfall Paul Cornman in a 1968 Impala--a good reminder, I think, not to "know people too quickly."

the little guy
12-07-2008, 12:55 AM
In my opinion, it's presumptious and off the mark for an on air analyst to describe their function as that of a "tout." I've been wagering since the age of 12, and one thing I've learned is that horseplayers have minds of their own. I'm there to supply local knowledge and stimulate the thought process, nothing more. We pitch our show primarily to seasoned players. Most Mountaineer enthusiasts are, after all, hardcore cases. True handicappers don't want touted, but many appreciate an informed discourse.


If you are referring to my use of the word " touting " I merely meant it as a verb to describe offering information on horses.

I'm not concerned with the semantics of what people may choose to call me, or anyone offering information on air, but only in the quality of what they give.

the little guy
12-07-2008, 12:57 AM
Yes, but in keeping with your original statement, shouldn't the viewer have the information and thus the option of factoring it in or disregarding it? In any event, you are now giving me visions of a pre-windfall Paul Cornman in a 1968 Impala--a good reminder, I think, not to "know people too quickly."


You're trolling. Good luck with that.

Indulto
12-07-2008, 01:11 AM
... you are now giving me visions of a pre-windfall Paul Cornman in a 1968 Impala--a good reminder, I think, not to "know people too quickly."For those of us who have no clue, what is the significance of that reference?

George Sands
12-07-2008, 01:12 AM
You're trolling. Good luck with that.

Translation: You don't want to defend your original statement because it is absurd.

George Sands
12-07-2008, 01:25 AM
For those of us who have no clue, what is the significance of that reference?

This is a long link. I hope it works.

http://books.google.com/books?id=JcAfWaCa9esC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=paul+cornman+television&source=web&ots=1GYj2szEv9&sig=0uFj2bMJRBWz0x0hB3ZQcNIieRU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result (http://books.google.com/books?id=JcAfWaCa9esC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=paul+cornman+television&source=web&ots=1GYj2szEv9&sig=0uFj2bMJRBWz0x0hB3ZQcNIieRU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result)

Indulto
12-07-2008, 02:11 AM
This is a long link. I hope it works.

Great read. Thanks for sharing.

the little guy
12-07-2008, 07:40 AM
Translation: You don't want to defend your original statement because it is absurd.


I said nothing even close to absurd. I merely said I don't think it is up to me, or you, to dictate what is an appropriate amount for someone to bet. That is up to them. You took it to a relative extreme. One can always do that.

I'm not going to say people should bet what I bet. That's not fair. Just something reasonably meaningful to them.

George Sands
12-07-2008, 12:51 PM
I said nothing even close to absurd. I merely said I don't think it is up to me, or you, to dictate what is an appropriate amount for someone to bet. That is up to them. You took it to a relative extreme. One can always do that.

I'm not going to say people should bet what I bet. That's not fair. Just something reasonably meaningful to them.

My assumption is that if the person is on TV telling people to bet on the horse he himself is betting on, then he is either just starting out, as Cornman was, or he is not a serious bettor.

As for the rest, I don't think anybody should be dictating anything in this area--whether in regard to specific bet size or the simple fact of a bet. There are just too many unknowns. The floors at racetracks are littered with self-belief.

the little guy
12-07-2008, 12:53 PM
My assumption is that if the person is on TV telling people to bet on the horse he himself is betting on, then he is either just starting out, as Cornman was, or he is not a serious bettor.

As for the rest, I don't think anybody should be dictating anything in this area--whether in regard to specific bet size or the simple fact of a bet. There are just too many unknowns. The floors at racetracks are littered with self-belief.


The majority of Paul Cornman's TV work was well after that article was written.

And, " serious bettor " is open to interpretation. But, I never suggested that anyway. I was simply talking about betting some vague sum.

George Sands
12-07-2008, 01:05 PM
The majority of Paul Cornman's TV work was well after that article was written

Paul Cornman became obsessed with people NOT knowing whom he was betting on.

the little guy
12-07-2008, 01:29 PM
Paul Cornman became obsessed with people NOT knowing whom he was betting on.


I'm just trying to keep this conversation to what we know. Here is what I responded to....




My assumption is that if the person is on TV telling people to bet on the horse he himself is betting on, then he is either just starting out, as Cornman was, or he is not a serious bettor.




Now, I'm obviously not going to get into this, much as you might enjoy that, but I do think it is fair to point out that from May of 1995 to May of 1996 Paul was the host of the NYRA TV Show. I don't think you will argue that this doesn't agree with what I responded to from you.

Look, you seem to disagree with my original comments in this thread. That's fine. But, I said what I believe. I can agree to disagree with you.

George Sands
12-07-2008, 02:00 PM
Now, I'm obviously not going to get into this, much as you might enjoy that, but I do think it is fair to point out that from May of 1995 to May of 1996 Paul was the host of the NYRA TV Show. I don't think you will argue that this doesn't agree with what I responded to from you.

Look, you seem to disagree with my original comments in this thread. That's fine. But, I said what I believe. I can agree to disagree with you.

Andy: You "get into it" with people all over this board, and I almost never get involved. We are making separate points about Cornman. I think you know that. I'm happy to agree to disagree about the rest.

the little guy
12-07-2008, 02:10 PM
Andy: You "get into it" with people all over this board, and I almost never get involved. We are making separate points about Cornman. I think you know that. I'm happy to agree to disagree about the rest.


You are free to get into any discussion you wish. You are making this personal. You have anonymity on your side.....so I don't know why. That's cool.

Best of luck.

George Sands
12-07-2008, 02:27 PM
You are free to get into any discussion you wish

And you are free to accuse me of "trolling" when you don't like what I have to say. Good luck to you, too.

the little guy
12-07-2008, 02:31 PM
And you are free to accuse me of "trolling" when you don't like what I have to say. Good luck to you, too.


The majority of your non off-topic posts recently have been directed towards me....and not in a conversational tone.

By the way, I don't mind what you have to say. I wish you would say it succinctly, so that one doesn't need to try to figure out the background, and everyone could maybe see what's going on. But, I don't care if you have something to say.

DanG
12-07-2008, 06:33 PM
Thanks man. The credit for our show goes to my boss Rosemary Williams. She wants the show aimed at the players, not the horsemen or any other faction. She ignores nitpickers and unflinchingly defends us when serious complaints arise.
You need to bottle that chemistry Mark / Nancy.

It sets you guys apart with the obvious respect you have for each other. You have the ability to address hardcore players; while not talking down to the few new fans we might have. A VERY difficult tight rope only a few can walk.

mountainman
12-08-2008, 01:09 AM
You need to bottle that chemistry Mark / Nancy.

It sets you guys apart with the obvious respect you have for each other. You have the ability to address hardcore players; while not talking down to the few new fans we might have. A VERY difficult tight rope only a few can walk.

Thanks Dan. Nancy and I are very good friends. The only difference between our on-screen and off-screen conversations is the vocabulary.

Imriledup
12-08-2008, 01:19 AM
Thanks Dan. Nancy and I are very good friends. The only difference between our on-screen and off-screen conversations is the vocabulary.

Most simo shows i just tune out. I never tune you guys out. You and Nanc give me a relaxed feeling when i'm listening and handicapping and since Mtn isn't my main track, i could use a few 'tidbits' when betting your races. I like the bias notes stuff, when you say that a certain horse was on a dead rail, or a rally wide winner won on a night where most winners were rally wide.

What might be interesting is that you could expand the show somewhat and have a roving reporter in the paddock interviewing jocks and trainers before and after races. No one knows the faces and voices of any of the mountaineer main players, we'd love to hear them at some point.

keep up the great work!

mountainman
12-08-2008, 01:12 PM
Most simo shows i just tune out. I never tune you guys out. You and Nanc give me a relaxed feeling when i'm listening and handicapping and since Mtn isn't my main track, i could use a few 'tidbits' when betting your races. I like the bias notes stuff, when you say that a certain horse was on a dead rail, or a rally wide winner won on a night where most winners were rally wide.

What might be interesting is that you could expand the show somewhat and have a roving reporter in the paddock interviewing jocks and trainers before and after races. No one knows the faces and voices of any of the mountaineer main players, we'd love to hear them at some point.

keep up the great work!
Thanks for watching. While we do take pains to not manufacture a bias, we try to be outfront in reporting emerging trends. Mountaineer's main track has a well-deserved reputation for being bias-prone. I take satisfaction in having helped bring people to that realization. Some sharp players consider day-to-day bias one of the last frontiers where human judgement can trump the automated approach. That's one reason Mountaineer is so popular with good handicappers.

the little guy
12-08-2008, 02:51 PM
I agree very much about talking about any possible track bias, or trends, and we talk about it both during the pre-races handicapping show and during the prattles between races. It's especially important at Aqueduct when we are on the inner track, as this track can be more susceptable to bias than our other surfaces, and very often people seem to imagine bias when one doesn't necessarily exist. Whatever the case, I couldn't agree more that it's important to always be aware of these situations in your pre-race discussions.

We have been using replays extensively in our handicapping show before the races begin since the Spring at Belmont. Do you use them at Mountaineer? Unfortunately, living in NYC I don't have access to your show, so perhaps you are already using them and my limited TV access has prevented me from noticing. Personally I find they work twofold....most importantly you can show people what you are referring to and allow them to make their own determinations.....but also to break up the monotony of staring at our faces. I was just curious if you have any thoughts on this.

DeanT
12-08-2008, 02:54 PM
You've been really good with that LG for this meet. The inner bias talk filled the airwaves for so long pre-meet and your day by day analysis about bias so far is quite good, imo.

the little guy
12-08-2008, 03:11 PM
Thanks Dean. It's been tricky, because some races have looked bias influenced, but considering the dynamics of the races, sometimes I feel this is illusory. And, people seem so much to want there to be a bias, which I really don't get, that they seem ready to jump to conclusions. Until I see some surprising results that seem bias influenced I will side with an even, or fair, track.

I thought the 3rd race on Saturday was a perfect example of how people who are making incorrect bias assumptions can get themselves into trouble. The 6 horse, a Ben Perkins horse from NJ off a maiden win, who was hopelessly overmatched, was the 2:1 co-favorite simply because he had an obvious pace advantage.

Frontenac
12-08-2008, 03:26 PM
I'm not a proponent of state-bred subsidies. In general, they reward mediocrity and enrich a select few. Believe me, persons who advocate restricted races have no regard whatsoever for the product or the players. Such programs are bullied through by political clout and born of self-interest. I've drawn heat for my irreverent attitude toward state-bred races, and that's something I'm proud of. I have, however, toned my remarks down pertaining to the wv bred program. Since we must accept it, I hope it flourishes, as that would only improve our product. And I HAVE praised certain
wv-bred races at mnr. It's my job to be objective.

Hey Mark,

I think you and Nancy do a great job, and as a result make Mountaineer the best track to watch on the computer simulcast. Keep up the great work.

Apart from early pace, and post position biases, The Mountain seems to be very much a trainer's track. Some of those guys you have there are unbelievable. Do you feel that these trainers are legitamately going about their business, and how hard does Mountaineer enforce drug policies?

Thanks in advance :ThmbUp:

ralph_the_cat
12-08-2008, 03:34 PM
Do you feel that these trainers are legitamately going about their business, and how hard does Mountaineer enforce drug policies?

Thanks in advance :ThmbUp:

:) ya Mark, What do you think about Scooter Davis?... :lol:

BombsAway Bob
12-08-2008, 03:54 PM
I agree very much about talking about any possible track bias, or trends, and we talk about it both during the pre-races handicapping show and during the prattles between races. It's especially important at Aqueduct when we are on the inner track, as this track can be more susceptable to bias than our other surfaces, and very often people seem to imagine bias when one doesn't necessarily exist. Whatever the case, I couldn't agree more that it's important to always be aware of these situations in your pre-race discussions.
We have been using replays extensively in our handicapping show before the races begin since the Spring at Belmont. Do you use them at Mountaineer? Unfortunately, living in NYC I don't have access to your show, so perhaps you are already using them and my limited TV access has prevented me from noticing. Personally I find they work twofold....most importantly you can show people what you are referring to and allow them to make their own determinations.....but also to break up the monotony of staring at our faces. I was just curious if you have any thoughts on this.
While TVG gets bashed deservedly for many things they do, their use of "TVG BACKTRACKS" has to be considered one of the BEST things they offer. I was surprised & very happy to see the use of replays on your NYRA show. Obviously, this requires a lot more advance work on your part, giving the info to your producer for them to pull up. TWINSPIRES new "Beta-TV" wagering interface is PERFECT for looking up video replays. When you click on the horse you want to see, it puts the horses PP's ON THE TRACK SCREEN, where you click that race, & voila, the race is shown to you, pronto. Previously, you could get the info, but then had to open two new screens on your computer to view replays, & had to scroll down the tracks' entire meet to find the date of the race, then the race itself. I've actually planned on playing a horse based on the PP line, but when I saw the replay & how the race unfolded, I'll pass!

toetoe
12-08-2008, 06:49 PM
Andy,

NOW you tell me he was overmatched. :bang: . I keyed him in the pick-four contest, mainly because the field looked evenly matched to me (no bias presumed). Did I miss a big discrepancy in figures ? :confused:

the little guy
12-08-2008, 07:29 PM
Andy,

NOW you tell me he was overmatched. :bang: . I keyed him in the pick-four contest, mainly because the field looked evenly matched to me (no bias presumed). Did I miss a big discrepancy in figures ? :confused:

Actually I said it two different times before the race. He took six times to break his maiden in NJ and was facing at least two dramatically better horses. To me he was way too slow.

mountainman
12-08-2008, 07:55 PM
I'm skeptical of supertrainers at ANY track. Since certain trainers so vastly improve on horse's claimed or purchased, their implausible strike-rates can't completely be attributed to superior stock. And sooner or later, when an outfit catches fire, one of their runners tests positive. Please notice that I've directed my suspicions at no particular trainer. That's a place I only go in private conversation.

mountainman
12-08-2008, 08:28 PM
I agree very much about talking about any possible track bias, or trends, and we talk about it both during the pre-races handicapping show and during the prattles between races. It's especially important at Aqueduct when we are on the inner track, as this track can be more susceptable to bias than our other surfaces, and very often people seem to imagine bias when one doesn't necessarily exist. Whatever the case, I couldn't agree more that it's important to always be aware of these situations in your pre-race discussions.

We have been using replays extensively in our handicapping show before the races begin since the Spring at Belmont. Do you use them at Mountaineer? Unfortunately, living in NYC I don't have access to your show, so perhaps you are already using them and my limited TV access has prevented me from noticing. Personally I find they work twofold....most importantly you can show people what you are referring to and allow them to make their own determinations.....but also to break up the monotony of staring at our faces. I was just curious if you have any thoughts on this.
No, we don't use replays in our commentary. We do, however, spend more time recapping each race than do most simulcast shows. Pertaining to biases, since lots of players don't believe in them, I sometimes feel like I'm forcing my religion on viewers. And because the detection of track-bias is so subjective, I try, when possible, to support my opinions with fact. In other words, I won't settle for just saying that the rail is dead if I can instead state that no winner raced near the rail at any point, or that posts 1-2-3 have produced no wins or places on the card. It's rarely that cut and dried, but on-air I strive to somehow substantiate a bias with facts.

What track does your show cover? How long have you worked as a tv analyst? It's great to communicate with one of my brethren.

the little guy
12-08-2008, 08:32 PM
The NYRA tracks....Aqueduct, Belmont, and Saratoga. I started in 1995 doing some TV work at NYRA and left in mid 1997. I have been doing handicapping shows from Siro's restaurant in Saratoga for DRF for close to ten years and just went back to NYRA this past Spring at Belmont. I also did a show for Youbet, called Playing to Win, during 2007.

boomman
12-08-2008, 08:40 PM
I'm skeptical of supertrainers at ANY track. Since certain trainers so vastly improve on horse's claimed or purchased, their implausible strike-rates can't completely be attributed to superior stock. And sooner or later, when an outfit catches fire, one of their runners tests positive. Please notice that I've directed my suspicions at no particular trainer. That's a place I only go in private conversation.

Mark: And to take it a step further, when we see these "super" trainers with win rates of 30% or higher, I like to set a line over or under on the number of days until we see a positive on one of their horses. It's amazing how many of them just get slaps on the wrist for multiple positives, and I'll mention one (of many) for you that will undoubtedly come to mind: Jane Vaders :bang:

Boomer

mountainman
12-08-2008, 09:05 PM
The NYRA tracks....Aqueduct, Belmont, and Saratoga. I started in 1995 doing some TV work at NYRA and left in mid 1997. I have been doing handicapping shows from Siro's restaurant in Saratoga for DRF for close to ten years and just went back to NYRA this past Spring at Belmont. I also did a show for Youbet, called Playing to Win, during 2007.

Cool. I'll try to tune in sometime.

mountainman
12-08-2008, 09:06 PM
Mark: And to take it a step further, when we see these "super" trainers with win rates of 30% or higher, I like to set a line over or under on the number of days until we see a positive on one of their horses. It's amazing how many of them just get slaps on the wrist for multiple positives, and I'll mention one (of many) for you that will undoubtedly come to mind: Jane Vaders :bang:

Boomer

Amen brother. Much stiffer penalties are needed.

Frontenac
12-08-2008, 10:22 PM
Mark, are you posting on the job? :)

Imriledup
12-08-2008, 10:49 PM
I noticed on Google earth that there a river or some body of water right next to the mountain. Any thoughts on if that river causes wind or certain 'conditions' that might affect speed horses on some nights and favor them on others?

People say that Del Mar has certain days where the 'tide' affects the races, Mountain is about 800 ft above sea level and it seems like the river is 100 ft LOWER than the racing surface. (according to google earth)

I don't remember seeing flags at Mountaineer, so i never know if this is typically a windy racetrack.......usually, near bodies of water, you get that wind factor.

proximity
12-08-2008, 11:38 PM
- Philly Park- Keith Jones selects three races to select picks at the beginning of the card but I am surprised this high handle track doesn't have a selection show in between every race.
.

way back in the day they used to have a show like this with jenny ornstein (?) and a guy named hugh (?). whatever happened to this??

mountainman
12-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Mark, are you posting on the job? :)

Sure beats talking with Nance about her home renovation project. The woman is OBSESSED. Step by step, she's transforming the place into a palace.

mountainman
12-09-2008, 04:40 PM
I noticed on Google earth that there a river or some body of water right next to the mountain. Any thoughts on if that river causes wind or certain 'conditions' that might affect speed horses on some nights and favor them on others?

People say that Del Mar has certain days where the 'tide' affects the races, Mountain is about 800 ft above sea level and it seems like the river is 100 ft LOWER than the racing surface. (according to google earth)

I don't remember seeing flags at Mountaineer, so i never know if this is typically a windy racetrack.......usually, near bodies of water, you get that wind factor.
We get moderate winds that generally die down after dark. They come from the southwest, which means the field sometimes has an indirect tailwind when headed up the backstretch.

Alyblakester
12-09-2008, 05:07 PM
Mountainman,
They tell me Mountaineer is in the middle of nowhere. Is that true? What do you do for culture? No Starbucks or bookstores? :confused:

mountainman
12-09-2008, 07:35 PM
Mountainman,
They tell me Mountaineer is in the middle of nowhere. Is that true? What do you do for culture? No Starbucks or bookstores? :confused:

Wrong guy to ask. Iced tea is my beverage and drf the near extent of my reading. Compared to me, Barney Fife is a party animal.

netbet
12-09-2008, 07:44 PM
Hi all,

Haven't been to Mountaineer in some time but I do remember there being at least one "Gentlemen's Club" on the same road as the track main entrance.

I think Mountaineer is a blast in the spring/summer when you can sit outside and enjoy a drink, watch the races and enjoy the crowds.

Maybe not the best racing but a good time.

NB

Frontenac
12-09-2008, 08:03 PM
Hi all,

Maybe not the best racing but a good time.

NB

I think the racing is great. Big competitive fields (usually 10 horses)where the winner isn't always paying $4

netbet
12-09-2008, 08:13 PM
Don't get me wrong....I like the racing from Mountaineer and can often be found in front of my PC on Monday and Tuesday nights betting them through PTC and watching the video through xpressbet :cool:

ralph_the_cat
12-11-2008, 03:18 PM
Mountainman,
They tell me Mountaineer is in the middle of nowhere. Is that true? What do you do for culture? No Starbucks or bookstores? :confused:

MNR can be a pain to get to from some other tracks/locations... but its really not in the middle of no where like some people think... its only 45 minutes from Pittsburgh and you could say its basically in OHIO... it just sits on a thin strip of WV... Plenty of places to go when you drive across the bridge into OHIO... All you really see is Ohio and PA plates on all the cars parked at MNR... it seems like if a car has a WV plate on it, then its usually someone that works at MNR, they just make all their money off the degenerate slot and card players from Ohio and PA, which are short drives for both...

jballscalls
12-11-2008, 05:08 PM
I remember driving to mountaineer and all i remember on that street was a horse track, a casino and about 3 'gentlemens' clubs. Sounds like paradise!

Onion Monster
12-11-2008, 07:25 PM
Keith Jones had a nice pick at Philly the other day. It was a front runner shipping in from Woodbine that won at about 9-1 (20-1 ML). His picks are usually chalky, though. But he does show replays for each of his selections. He seems amicable too. In this sport, there's not that many friendly faces.

Mark and Nancy are both informative and entertaining. Mark, as noted, is good at detecting biases. His frankness is appreciated when it comes to jockeys and trainers. If a guy can't ride, he'll tell you. Nancy, on the other hand, provides the neccessary balance. She'll often defend horses or connections that Mark knocks. She's a sucker for firsters and closers, though.

Andy Serling is really good at finding horses with hidden form due to bad trips. He just had a nice priced winner on the slop today that was featured in Trips and Traps (Herald Square came home nicely). On turf, I doubt there's a better public 'capper east of the Allegheny Mountains. He, however, avows to his lack of interest in jockeys. This must be taken into account if you plan to back his picks on the dirt.

DeanT
12-13-2008, 01:49 PM
"I think we might be seeing an inside bias"
AS

I thought the same thing, so he is clearly wrong.