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rrbauer
11-24-2008, 11:33 AM
I want to put up a new takeout chart that differentiates between tracks that recive alternative-gaming subsisides and those that don't.

Somebody has to know this

What TB tracks are currently receiving slots-generated purse subsidies. These I'm fairly certain about:
Pennsylvania Tracks
Louisiana Tracks
Indiana Tracks
Delaware Park
Mountaineer
Charles Town
Remington
Woodbine
Illinois (all of them?) starting soon
Gulfstream?

What else?

Thanks! :ThmbUp:

xtb
11-24-2008, 12:11 PM
Fingerlakes

Imriledup
11-24-2008, 12:24 PM
NJ tracks are getting like 30 mil for 3 years from the NJ casinos. Doesn't NY have slots? I could have sworn NY passed a law letting them have slots.

Cangamble
11-24-2008, 12:31 PM
Fort Erie, and every harness track in Ontario.
Pretty sure most other Canadian tracks are now get slot money too. I think Hastings just got on the list.

rrbauer
11-24-2008, 02:32 PM
NJ tracks are getting like 30 mil for 3 years from the NJ casinos. Doesn't NY have slots? I could have sworn NY passed a law letting them have slots.

Just added FL to the list, but the other tracks are waiting on Aquduct, I think.

Is the Jersey thing a done deal? Thought there was some impasse that hadn't been resolved.

rrbauer
11-24-2008, 02:34 PM
Fort Erie, and every harness track in Ontario.
Pretty sure most other Canadian tracks are now get slot money too. I think Hastings just got on the list.

Thanks, CG. For some reason, I thought FE was getting ready to close....wrong?

Pace Cap'n
11-24-2008, 05:47 PM
Oaklawn for sure.

Remington, I think.

BillW
11-24-2008, 05:49 PM
Prairie Meadows, I believe

Cangamble
11-24-2008, 05:50 PM
Thanks, CG. For some reason, I thought FE was getting ready to close....wrong?
It doesn't look great. My hunch is that it won't close though.
In 2002 17 million profit was had by both the owner and the horsemen from slots.
Now it is down to around 4 million to each (The horsemen also get around 4-5 million in the purse accounts from betting)
The owner says he is losing around 4 million a year because of track operation.

I don't believe it because I see many small tracks without slots still surviving.
It just doesn't make sense.

proximity
11-24-2008, 06:13 PM
rrb,

being a penn national track, i'm sure zia has a casino as well. beside your track takeout percentages, you should also list the corresponding slots takeout percentage for each track. i think that would make the point.

proximity

DeanT
11-24-2008, 06:23 PM
The classic example is the SF takeout at PEN. They get a gazillion from slots, but the take is approx equal to the takeout on the Massachusetts state lottery.

Everytime I type that I feel I should type it again since it is so hard to believe.

BillW
11-24-2008, 06:24 PM
rrb,

being a penn national track, i'm sure zia has a casino as well.

Ruidoso, Sunland and SunRay too (all NM tracks). Blue Ribbon in Okla.

cj's dad
11-24-2008, 06:36 PM
Slots passed in Md. this past election by referendum.
Purse supplement will begin in Maryland soon (obviously when VGM's are up and running) , but don't know when.

Tom Barrister
11-24-2008, 08:35 PM
Remington and Prairie Meadows both have casinos. Zia has at least slots, as do all New Mexico tracks that I know of. Will Rogers Downs also has slots.

Every Canadian track (thoroughbred and harness) that I know of which has an extended meeting has slots or a racino, mostly the latter. I've read that the short-meet Canadian tracks also get subsidized indirectly from the slots and casinos. I know for sure that Assiniboia, Stampede, Northlands, Marquie Downs, Hastings, Fort Erie, and Woodbine do.

rrbauer
11-24-2008, 09:37 PM
Thanks to everyone for the input. Damn - now I have to go to work!

stu
11-24-2008, 10:12 PM
Don't forget Louisiana -- They all have slots

Don't forget the card rooms supplementing purses:

Tampa, Calder, Gulfstream, Pompano, Running Aces, Prairie Meadows, Canterbury

stu
11-24-2008, 10:18 PM
Racinos.com (http://www.racinos.com/)

Cangamble
11-24-2008, 11:15 PM
Racinos.com (http://www.racinos.com/)
I think the shorter list by far is which tracks don't get subsidized by slots.

rrbauer
11-25-2008, 07:02 AM
I think the shorter list by far is which tracks don't get subsidized by slots.

Now you tell me! :)

highnote
11-25-2008, 08:10 AM
Thanks to everyone for the input. Damn - now I have to go to work!


Maybe you can answer how it is that horsemen think they need a larger piece of simulcast/adw handle when they're already getting slot subsidies?

I don't get it. Maybe they are mistaking themselves for a financial institution that is too big to fail?

I am more convinced than ever that horseplayers need a larger piece of this pie via reduced takeouts.

onefast99
11-25-2008, 08:55 AM
NJ tracks receive a casino supplement so the tracks(NJSEA)wont roll out the VLT's at Monmouth and the Meadowlands. This deal ends in 2010. I would bet the NJSEA either gets the slots in the tracks or cuts another casino deal for 2011. I would prefer they sell the tracks to a private company familiar with slots and poker tables. Ex Gov Codey and Senator Beck have asked Gov Corzine to establish a commission to workout the funding for the future success of the horseracing industry and its supplementation by whatever means possible. Since many casinos have laid off workers and lost monies over the past several months the Gov must step up and help this industry and slots is the only answer!

rrbauer
11-25-2008, 09:11 AM
Maybe you can answer how it is that horsemen think they need a larger piece of simulcast/adw handle when they're already getting slot subsidies?.

In a word, "entitlement". They believe that they are entitled to horseplayers' money. I can't see any other motivation for their behavior. They enter a game where owners have an 80% expectation of losing money. In order to mitigate that, once reality sets in, they go after our money with reckless abandon.


I am more convinced than ever that horseplayers need a larger piece of this pie via reduced takeouts.

The problem is that there are now two pies. One pie is growing (the "alternative gaming" source). The other pie is shrinking (the handle source).

Consider their entitlemen mentality. They are entitled to slot money. Where does the biggest impetus for slots and casinos come from? The casino owners whose eyeballs resemble dollar signs, the politicians who see an easy revenue source in lieu of raising taxes and the horse owners who act like beggars with tin cups bemoaning the potential job losses in the state if horse racing isn't "saved". I really think that this is where the 1/3 split (that sufaced in the ADW battles) originated. 1/3 for the casino owners, 1/3 for the politicians and 1/3 for the racing industry. And the potential for this source of money is far greater than the traditional source because it involves the entire general population.

They are entitled to horseplayers' money. There is no other conclusion that you can draw when you analyze their behavior. They act like our money is out there in a big pot and it's all for them. How else can you explain THG, TOC and CDI blocking attempts to enter the ADW market by firms like PTC that have a streamlined computer-based operation and a low cost structure and a desire to return a piece of the bloated takeout pie to its customers? Or trying to apply "divide and conquer" techniques over ADW's by allowing some to have access and deny access to others seeking the same terms as those with access. And they do this by shutting off customer access to the business while they battle with their co-entitlment holders over the customers' money. Such arrogance might be understood if we were talking about a quality product.

Time is running out on horseplayers' opportunity to shape the game.

rrbauer
11-25-2008, 09:19 AM
NJ tracks receive a casino supplement so the tracks(NJSEA)wont roll out the VLT's at Monmouth and the Meadowlands. This deal ends in 2010. I would bet the NJSEA either gets the slots in the tracks or cuts another casino deal for 2011. I would prefer they sell the tracks to a private company familiar with slots and poker tables. Ex Gov Codey and Senator Beck have asked Gov Corzine to establish a commission to workout the funding for the future success of the horseracing industry and its supplementation by whatever means possible. Since many casinos have laid off workers and lost monies over the past several months the Gov must step up and help this industry and slots is the only answer!

Thanks for the update.

miesque
11-25-2008, 09:25 AM
They are entitled to horseplayers' money. There is no other conclusion that you can draw when you analyze their behavior. They act like our money is out there in a big pot and it's all for them. How else can you explain THG, TOC and CDI blocking attempts to enter the ADW market by firms like PTC that have a streamlined computer-based operation and a low cost structure and a desire to return a piece of the bloated takeout pie to its customers? And they do this by shutting off customer access to the business while they battle with their co-entitlment holders over the customers' money. Such arrogance might be understood if we were talking about a quality product. Time is running out on horseplayers' opportunity to shape the game.

You bring up a very good point, the quality of the product has been declining while the price they are effectively asking for to put on the product has gone up, price and quality are not supposed to be inversely related. Ironically one of the most glaring examples of this is at the upper echelons of racing where purses are at record levels but often result in graded stakes races with small fields of uninspiring horses with short careers.

Charlie D
11-25-2008, 09:26 AM
Time is running out on horseplayers' opportunity to shape the game.

Horseplayers are not interested in this RB, i'm afraid

Look at Holly, it's handle should have been next to nothing during the blackout

Players will play no matter what and the THG, TOC, whatever know this

Charlie D
11-25-2008, 09:31 AM
Philly




Takeout Information

Win, place, and show: 17%
Daily Double and Exacta: 20%
Pick 3: 26%
Trifecta and Superfecta: 30%





Those crazy percentages will remain same, why?? because players keep paying up imho

Charlie D
11-25-2008, 10:04 AM
Aqueduct
Pick 6 wagering: 25% (15% on non-carryover days)

People see Mr Crist paying up, they pay up, Mr Crist says bugger you, i'm not paying 25%, other players may do similar

Player power and influence

Mr Crist and others like him have it, but they choose not to use it, i'm afraid

rrbauer
11-25-2008, 11:25 AM
Aqueduct
Pick 6 wagering: 25% (15% on non-carryover days)

People see Mr Crist paying up, they pay up, Mr Crist says bugger you, i'm not paying 25%, other players may do similar

Player power and influence

Mr Crist and others like him have it, but they choose not to use it, i'm afraid
Actually Charlie it's now 16% and 26% for P6 in New York. It's the trickle-up theory of financial management.

point given
11-25-2008, 11:34 AM
realize you are only interested in tbred tracks, but , in NY State , the Yonkers , Monticello and Saratoga harness tracks have been getting slots money as well as Finger lakes.

Also interesting to note that from what i've read in New Jersey, the $30 million is divided between the tbred and harness. But Freehold doesnot want to sign the paperwork as they are owned by ? Pennwood gaming ? and then Atlantic city RC wanted some money and 20 days instead of 6 days and were turned down and told they must submit a plan to improve the facilities etc.

It will be interesting to see the hard figures you come up with in your new chart.

Charlie D
11-25-2008, 11:42 AM
Actually Charlie it's now 16% and 26% for P6 in New York. It's the trickle-up theory of financial management.


I repeat - Players will play no matter what and the THG, TOC, whatever, know this

While he/she does, they will keep on restricting, blocking and adding on a %
or two


We all have power and influence, some like Mr Crist, Beyer, Mordin etc have it more than others

We have to get together and use it

trying2win
11-27-2008, 09:45 PM
Remington and Prairie Meadows both have casinos. Zia has at least slots, as do all New Mexico tracks that I know of. Will Rogers Downs also has slots.

Every Canadian track (thoroughbred and harness) that I know of which has an extended meeting has slots or a racino, mostly the latter. I've read that the short-meet Canadian tracks also get subsidized indirectly from the slots and casinos. I know for sure that Assiniboia, Stampede, Northlands, Marquie Downs, Hastings, Fort Erie, and Woodbine do.

Tom:

You're right about our local track here in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada...i.e. Northlands Park giving out slots-generated subsidies to augment horsemen's purses. The weasels operating Northlands Park really sock it to the racefans with exorbitant concession prices and gimmick takeouts. The only reasonable takeout they have is on straight bets.

The weasels than run Northlands Park, don't appear to be eager to lower takeouts on the gimmcks here. The reason I call Northlands Park officials weasels, is they regularly proclaim themselves as a non-profit agricultural society! (what a laugh that is)...and because of that, they shouldn't have to pay taxes like every other business is required by law to. Iin my opinion, Northlands Park is nothing but a gambling empire, and don't pay their fair share of taxes! Northlands Park claims they are beneficial to the community by providing employment. Yes they do provide a fair amount of employment for part-time workers. However, they also provide the facility to lure many naive people into becoming addicted to their VLTS. I don't call that being beneficial to the community. It just causes more social problems.

The incompetent, spineless councillors running our local City Council let Northlands Park lease all the huge land tract they operate their various businesses on for (get this) only $1.00 per year! As far as I know, the weasels operating Norhtlands Park pay nothing or next-to-nothing in property taxes. And get this...Northlands Park regularly asks taxpayers for several million dollars in grants to operate their facilities every year....and now they're asking City Council to guarantee a $60 million to construct new buildings on Northlands Park's exhibition grounds. My advice to City Council...SAY NO to that idea of a $60 million loan guarantee to Northlands Park!

In addition, the last few years Northlands Park has spent enormous sums on a few toys such as a gigantic neon display screen on a busy avenue adjacent to their grounds, built a new expensive infield toteboard, put in more VLTS and horse racing desk betting machines. Then they claim they shouldn't have pay any taxes,... B-E-C-A-U-S-E... we're a NON-PROFIT AGRICULTURAL SOCIETY! What a bunch baloney that is! I say Northlands Park should get off their high-horse, pay property and business taxes like everyone else, lower track takeouts and quit asking taxpayers for millions in additional subsidies every year. Plus, quit asking taxpayers for multi-million dollar loan guarantees.


T2W

rrbauer
11-28-2008, 10:08 AM
Here's an interesting tidbit about slots in New York.

http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2008/11/26/news/doc492cbcfd5c3a8221675399.txt

I love this:
"New York currently has eight harness track racinos and another at Finger Lakes Race Track, a thoroughbred venue near Rochester. Before gaming was introduced, combined purses were about $35 million per year. By 2010, they’re expected to reach $120 million, New York Off Track Betting President Raymond Casey said.

Breeding programs have benefited significantly and should do so even more once Aqueduct’s racino opens in late 2009 or early ’10. More mares are being bred and more stallions are moving into New York, he said.

But there hasn’t been a corresponding increase in handle — the amount people bet — an indication that VLTs haven’t boosted fan interest in racing."


Did anyone ever imagine that having slots would increase handle on races?

takeout
11-28-2008, 04:02 PM
Did anyone ever imagine that having slots would increase handle on races?Well, not really. But I did think they would do something a whole lot better for the game with at least SOME of the slot money. Ain’t gonna happen though.

Cangamble
11-29-2008, 07:54 AM
I think initially race tracks thought that slots would bring in new customers that might start getting the horse racing bug as well. I don't think they originally thought that they would lose some customers, the casual bettors who became more addicted to bet the non thinking way with the one armed bandit as they quickly weaned themselves away from the track part of the racino.

Imriledup
11-29-2008, 08:59 AM
One of the biggest problems horse players face is a negative image. Horse players are viewed as low class scum. Walk the bottom floor on almost any track in the USA and you will see hoards of the same, broke, desperate, 2 dollar bettors, some sifting thru garbage cans for winning tickets that were possibly thrown away. THESE are the people that track managements, ADWs and owners think they are taking money from. Horse players are not respected because of their image and the tracks knowing that no matter what the takeout rates happen to be, these same exact people will be in their same spot on a daily basis.

No one cares about the future of the game, all they want is the money grab TODAY. How much money can i make TODAY? If there is no tomorrow, well, that's not my responsibility, i just need to squeeze every last penny out of every horseplayer, every day. If the game goes under,well, that's not the problem of the money grabbers.

miesque
11-29-2008, 09:51 AM
One of the biggest problems horse players face is a negative image. Horse players are viewed as low class scum. Walk the bottom floor on almost any track in the USA and you will see hoards of the same, broke, desperate, 2 dollar bettors, some sifting thru garbage cans for winning tickets that were possibly thrown away. THESE are the people that track managements, ADWs and owners think they are taking money from. Horse players are not respected because of their image and the tracks knowing that no matter what the takeout rates happen to be, these same exact people will be in their same spot on a daily basis.


You bring up an interesting side point and that is there is a complete lack of any sort of glitz, glamour, coolness, classiness, etc associated with being a horseplayer. As a matter of fact I can tell you its the opposite, you get viewed as some sort of irrelevant second class citizen and some people may not care but I am not fond of it. Also, in addition to the scenario mentioned above, the image of horseplayers is not aided by those few animated horseplayers you overhear yelling such profound statements such as "break a leg you POS" or carrying on like a two year old when they lose a close call. When I bring newbies to the track with me, the two things I hope they aren't exposed to is (1) a breakdown and (2) encountering an ill mannered horseplayer, and while obviously not what all horseplayers are like that, there are enough. To be brutally frank, if I didn't really, really enjoy a day/night at the races and the challenge of handicapping the races I doubt I would ever be at the track, let alone using most of my vacation each year on track visits and I would certainly not be spending my Saturday morning watching replays and and analyzing PPs.

Cangamble
11-29-2008, 10:48 AM
One of the biggest problems horse players face is a negative image. Horse players are viewed as low class scum. Walk the bottom floor on almost any track in the USA and you will see hoards of the same, broke, desperate, 2 dollar bettors, some sifting thru garbage cans for winning tickets that were possibly thrown away. THESE are the people that track managements, ADWs and owners think they are taking money from. Horse players are not respected because of their image and the tracks knowing that no matter what the takeout rates happen to be, these same exact people will be in their same spot on a daily basis.

No one cares about the future of the game, all they want is the money grab TODAY. How much money can i make TODAY? If there is no tomorrow, well, that's not my responsibility, i just need to squeeze every last penny out of every horseplayer, every day. If the game goes under,well, that's not the problem of the money grabbers.
I agree. Racing's idea of competition is to get our money as quickly as possible so we don't use it elsewhere.

They just look at the bottom line, regardless of what the takeout is, their bottom line is how much players collectively lose daily, weekly, monthly, etc.

They look at us as mooches, and the faster we lose means they have done their job.

whyhorseofcourse
11-29-2008, 11:26 AM
Hoosier Park

Endsweep24
11-29-2008, 02:31 PM
There is no place in North America whose purses are subsidized more than Woodbines. There handle yesterday was a little over 2.4 million. But yet from March thru Dec they have the best purses around.

You see more and more american trainers running there horses there infact Steve Asmussen has a stable there this year. And Mark Casse figured it out years ago where all the money was going to be.

Imriledup
11-29-2008, 03:20 PM
You bring up an interesting side point and that is there is a complete lack of any sort of glitz, glamour, coolness, classiness, etc associated with being a horseplayer. As a matter of fact I can tell you its the opposite, you get viewed as some sort of irrelevant second class citizen and some people may not care but I am not fond of it. Also, in addition to the scenario mentioned above, the image of horseplayers is not aided by those few animated horseplayers you overhear yelling such profound statements such as "break a leg you POS" or carrying on like a two year old when they lose a close call. When I bring newbies to the track with me, the two things I hope they aren't exposed to is (1) a breakdown and (2) encountering an ill mannered horseplayer, and while obviously not what all horseplayers are like that, there are enough. To be brutally frank, if I didn't really, really enjoy a day/night at the races and the challenge of handicapping the races I doubt I would ever be at the track, let alone using most of my vacation each year on track visits and I would certainly not be spending my Saturday morning watching replays and and analyzing PPs.


Professional horse players aside, even recreational players get looked at funny for betting the horses. I remember growing up and in my teens having to really hide at racetracks so as to not be seen by any of my childhood friends. I was mortified one day when a kid from my high school saw me at the track. I know, he was there too, but i figured now i'm screwed, the rumor will get around that i hang around at racetracks.

I've dated girls who would ask me about my 'habit' and then giggle because their image was that one day they would come home and see that all their furniture was gone (that i've sold all their stuff to make my next bet). It was funny and we laughed, but i was sick and tired of having to explain to people that i'm not going to sell the fillings out of my teeth to make my next bet. I dont think day traders on wall street had to ever tell someone they weren't going to sell their babies formula money to make their next stock purchase.

I'm sure all of us had to deal with this 'negative' image surrounding horse race betting. Racing industry has done an absolute HORRIBLE job marketing their game. Racing is a great game of chess, this isn't pulling a slot machine or buying a lottery ticket, heck, lottery players get more 'love' than horse players. A buck and a dream they would tell you. Go ahead, buy a lottery ticket, but god forbid you engage in the greatest intellectual challenge on the planet, figuring out a horse race.

Look at today, poker players are being glamourized as heroes with their dark sunglasses and whatnut....is there one horseplayer that anyone has ever heard of outside the mainstream horse racing media? Who is the Doyle Brunson of horse racing? Who is the Phil Hellmuth of horse racing?

Where are the most successful pro gamblers to come on the set at ESPN while wearing a 3k suit and talk about their million dollar pick 6 scores? No, we have Hank Goldberg. He isn't the image that we want to project of what the typical horse player looks and sounds like.

I have a friend who made an interesting point. I was complaining to him one day about having to deal with this negative image that horse players have to deal with and he said he prefers it that way. He said that if horse race bettors were glamourized and revered than the smartest humans in society wouldnt need to become doctors and lawyers, they would be horse bettors. He said that because of the negative image, it keeps out a certain percentage of the smartest humans in our society, which makes it possible to actually beat this game. That makes some sense to me.

Hopefully i'll live long enough to see the day where the horse player is viewed as a grand chess master and society has the ability to seperate that type of pursuit from the image that people now have in their minds about horse betting and horse players.

Zman179
11-29-2008, 04:13 PM
But there hasn’t been a corresponding increase in handle — the amount people bet — an indication that VLTs haven’t boosted fan interest in racing."


Did anyone ever imagine that having slots would increase handle on races?

The only thoroughbred tracks that I know of which have had a positive impact on racing handles as a result of slot revenue are:

Delaware & Mountaineer (which have both seen ten-fold handle increases)

Delta (handle has about doubled)

Evangeline (with about a 30% increase)

...and the odd one out is:

Prairie Meadows (which has seen a large percentage increase in on-track handle since the machines have arrived, as well as a marginal off-track increase.)

Otherwise handle figures at slots-fueled tracks have remained essentally at pre-slots levels.

Cangamble
11-29-2008, 04:23 PM
The only thoroughbred tracks that I know of which have had a positive impact on racing handles as a result of slot revenue are:

Delaware & Mountaineer (which have both seen ten-fold handle increases)

Delta (handle has about doubled)

Evangeline (with about a 30% increase)

...and the odd one out is:

Prairie Meadows (which has seen a large percentage increase in on-track handle since the machines have arrived, as well as a marginal off-track increase.)

Otherwise handle figures at slots-fueled tracks have remained essentally at pre-slots levels.
Are you sure Mountaineer and Delaware had handle increases of 10-fold? Was this on track mostly, or was it due to availability by ADW's? I'd like to know the timing of this.

DeanT
11-29-2008, 04:55 PM
In Ontario the tracks and purses have received something like 2.1 billion since it started. In addition they received 7% of each buck wagered back as the gvt took the tax off pools. So in effect, with 21% takes, where they made 14%, they got 21%.

Since slots were introduced and they got 7% of each wager, average takeout has increased, as people cry poor.

Zman179
11-29-2008, 05:28 PM
Are you sure Mountaineer and Delaware had handle increases of 10-fold? Was this on track mostly, or was it due to availability by ADW's? I'd like to know the timing of this.

Prior to slots, both Delaware and Mountaineer had programs that were (here's a new word) unsimulcastable. In other words, they both had a downright horrible product.

Delaware was doing so bad that they actually went out of business for about three years. Their product featured horses which could not compete in Maryland or Philadelphia; it was equivalent to today's Beulah Park/River Downs fare. I'd estimate that average handle was around $200,000 per card.

Pre-slots Mountaineer/Waterford was THE last stop for horses; horses which couldn't compete here headed directly to the slaughterhouse (and I'm not kidding, they used to have shuttle vans on the backstretch.) The average card was for $1,500 to $2,000 claimers running for $2,000 purses and an allowance race (for a $2,100 purse.) Average handle was around $90,000 per card for an 8-9 race program. When I said ten-fold earlier, it was more like 15 to 20-fold here!

The product quality was so bad that Mountaineer had to run for a few months under the new purse program before they even considered simulcasting their races. Delaware took a little time to get going, but Mountaineer was like an instant hit; their Sunday to Tuesday night schedule fit into a perfect product niche.

Cangamble
11-29-2008, 07:07 PM
Do you think Turf Paradises product today is better than Delaware and Mountaineer pre-slots?

They did over 2 million in handle on Tuesday. Very little competition at that time, but the overwhelming portion of the handle came from ADW's and other tracks.

Zman179
11-29-2008, 08:55 PM
I'd say that Turf Paradise's product is indeed better than pre-slots Del & Mnr.

The #1 track in history which tailored its product to the off-track audience is Monticello Raceway in the 80's and 90's. They actually structured their racecards theoughout the year to occur when there was a lack of available signals (i.e. they would always race on Christmas Eve, even though it wasn't a scheduled race day for them.) On a regular raceday MR would handle about $130,000 for an eleven race card. Yet on Christmas Eve they would handle over $1.5 million for twelve races! According to John Manzi (the then GM of Monti), it was the "hit them where they ain't" theory. Turf Paradise does the same thing with their winter Monday & Tuesday cards.

gemcity39
11-29-2008, 09:45 PM
Sunland Park was ready to close pre-slots, crowds, if you call it that around 600 on Fridays, now Asmussen, Baffert and others bring horses in regularly...the Tuesday cards in the winter have handle from 1-2.2 million...when Texas first had racing sorry Texas horses went to New Mexico, now Retama & Sam Houston horses get killed at Sunland... Sunland is a very nice facility and 90% of the time a fast track.:)

rrbauer
02-11-2009, 10:35 AM
Even Ray Paulick is joining the band wagon.

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/slots-revenue-fools-gold/

alhattab
02-11-2009, 09:40 PM
It's really incredible that it took this long for people to catch on. It's an equation I never really understood myself. The game would be much better off if the slots disappeared from the scene.

rrbauer
09-14-2009, 09:38 AM
Delaware Park will close its 2009 meet a week early due to a decline in purse subsidies. The decline is due in part to a reduction of 10% by the pols of the amout being diverted to purses and due in part to a decline in slots revenue.

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS194491+11-Sep-2009+BW20090911

Tampa Russ
09-14-2009, 10:42 AM
Delaware Park will close its 2009 meet a week early due to a decline in purse subsidies. The decline is due in part to a reduction of 10% by the pols of the amout being diverted to purses and due in part to a decline in slots revenue.

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS194491+11-Sep-2009+BW20090911

Although I certainly am aware of the riskiness of slots fueled purses, the good news is DEL is open today and the card looks nice. I'm going to make some hay while the sun is still shining.

When I think about it, what the heck isn't subsidized anymore?

Tampa Russ
09-14-2009, 11:54 AM
Although I certainly am aware of the riskiness of slots fueled purses, the good news is DEL is open today and the card looks nice. I'm going to make some hay while the sun is still shining.

When I think about it, what the heck isn't subsidized anymore?

Off the Turf today at DEL...of course..just to annoy me. No hay today.

highnote
09-14-2009, 12:08 PM
Did any of these racetrack operators ever read the academic reports that said Slot Machines hurt racetrack handle?

Maybe racetrack owners should do the reverse of what some major league teams do? Major League teams who own a stadium will claim that their teams lose money so that they can negotiate lower salaries for their players. But in reality, the teams make big money, but claim that the money is not made by the teams, but by the stadium.

With a little creative accounting racetracks with slots could claim that their racing product is highly successful by showing all the money the entire gambling operation brings in. They should NOT have separated racing and slots. All the money should have been put into one big pot.

Maybe it wasn't possible to do it that way. I don't know.

But this is beside the point... the racetrack managers could have avoided this situation if they just would have realized slots would kill the live racing product.

Then again, if you're a racino owner with a slots license, what do you care if racing dies. You're still making money off of the slots.

Track Collector
09-14-2009, 04:18 PM
Did any of these racetrack operators ever read the academic reports that said Slot Machines hurt racetrack handle?

Maybe racetrack owners should do the reverse of what some major league teams do? Major League teams who own a stadium will claim that their teams lose money so that they can negotiate lower salaries for their players. But in reality, the teams make big money, but claim that the money is not made by the teams, but by the stadium.

With a little creative accounting racetracks with slots could claim that their racing product is highly successful by showing all the money the entire gambling operation brings in. They should NOT have separated racing and slots. All the money should have been put into one big pot.

Maybe it wasn't possible to do it that way. I don't know.

But this is beside the point... the racetrack managers could have avoided this situation if they just would have realized slots would kill the live racing product.

Then again, if you're a racino owner with a slots license, what do you care if racing dies. You're still making money off of the slots.

Exactly! From a profit perspective, slots out-produce racing by a wide margin for the stakesholder. Rather than hoping to create new racing fans from existing slots players, racetracks are actually hoping to create new slots players from exiting racing fans.

To illustrate how uneducated many slots players are, it is interesting to note that they would find it too much to wager as much as $10 a race, yet they would think nothing of wagering as much a $100 to $200 PER HOUR hour in a slot machine! The "slowness" of racing could be overcome by betting on various simulcasts. I guess it is really an issue of greed, where one would rather lose $100 (with a high degree of certainty) to chase $10,000 vs. a much more reasonably possible result of winning $10 to $30 while risking that same $100.

thespaah
09-14-2009, 04:46 PM
NJ tracks are getting like 30 mil for 3 years from the NJ casinos. Doesn't NY have slots? I could have sworn NY passed a law letting them have slots.
Yes..All of the Harness tracks are racinos.
However, I have read that Monticello is in bad financial trouble and may closed.
http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article/empire-resorts-reports-loss-of-%2412-2m-might-face-bankruptcy-177453?contentId=177453

There is news that a casino may be built nearby at one of the old Catskill Mountain resorts..http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article/new-york-county-approves-casino-project-177959?contentId=177959

If so, that would pretty much put the last nail in Monticello Racewy's coffin.

thespaah
09-14-2009, 04:49 PM
NJ tracks are getting like 30 mil for 3 years from the NJ casinos. Doesn't NY have slots? I could have sworn NY passed a law letting them have slots.Judging by the lowered purses at Monmouth and the levels of purses at both the Meadowlands and Freehold, I think that money has dried up, has been stolen by the State legisalture or has been placed on a barge and floated off Sandy Hook.
The purses for the 2009 Meadowlands harness meet were literally at 1980's levels...