A Few Lines From Machiavelli's 'Prince'

[Burls]

From Chapter VI of The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli.

... And it ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of them. Thus it happens that whenever those who are hostile have the opportunity to attack they do it like partisans, whilst the others defend lukewarmly, in such wise that the prince is endangered along with them.

Question: Do these words from 1513 still apply to the Iraq fiasco in 2008?

[Tom]

What fiasco?

[Burls]

What fiasco?The one surrounding the rather lengthy delay between the displaying of a VICTORY banner on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln on May 1 2003 and the failure to achieve more than minimal, sporatic political stability in Iraq over 5 years later.

The surge took care of that didn't it?
Not according to Bob Woodward, of Watergate fame.

Maybe the vaunted surge, in which President Bush sent nearly 30,000 additional troops to Iraq, isn't all it's been cracked up to be.
In Bob Woodward's new book, "The War Within: A Secret White House History 2006-2008," the investigative journalist contends that the surge wasn't the primary reason that violence decreased in Iraq over the past 16 months. "Rather, Woodword reports 'groundbreaking' new covert techniques enabled U.S. military and intelligence officers to locate, target, and kill insurgent leaders and key individuals in extremist groups such as al-Qaeda in Iraq," the Post reports.

It was these covert operations, along with militant cleric Muqtada al-Sadr reining in his Mahdi Army and tens of thousands of Sunnis turning against al-Qaida in Iraq and allying with U.S. forces, in addition to the surge, that lessened the violence in the country, according to "The War Within."

Even so, 'victory' - is still a ways off.

[LottaKash]

Still, it is All insanity, no matter the cause or the reason..........All those poor soldiers and guiltless citizens of those nations, who are dead and or now suffering with their scars or a lack of civilized living and medical care.... AND for what ? For Victory, how do you define that, in this case ?....You never will be able to....What a sin, and such a waste of our people, money and our ethics........We have lost our mind and our honor.....

To the World:
If we suspect you are harboring terrorists, we will kill you and ruin your lifestryle, got it world ? ...

[Tom]

Victory in Iraq is not the goal.
Victory against terrorism is.
Unfortunately, we now have a quit-o-crat in charge.
Good news for Al Qeda. Obama is their ticket.

[LottaKash]

Victory in Iraq is not the goal.
Victory against terrorism is..

Tom, I know you really believe in this war thing, and that is ok, and certainly your right to believe in it.....But, My question for you is, how will we know when we have this "victory", over this terrorism ?.... That is a legitimate question I think, and it certainly deserves a legitimate answer, I imagine...

We've spent a Trillion Dollars on this terrorism business, how much more to pay, to do what, to gain this victory over this ghost called terrorism ?

This country is broke as it is, why feed the rich in this way, fighiting a losing war, when we can better use this money to feed the Rich Banksters here at home.......

This is all "Madness", the Banks, the War, Nuts I say.....America has careened off the cliff......

Please help us oSama, "change has come", please save us quickly :lol:

best,

[The Judge]

then any war that the U.S engages in is justified. I don't know anyone that thinks the was in Viet Nam was justified or worth the lives it cost "NOW" but you were Un-American if you were against said war when it was going on.

Kids were shot down like dogs on college grounds. Some had to leave the country. If these wars are so rightoues declare WAR thru an act of Congress!

[Tom]

Sorry Judge, this congress will only declare defeat.

[ddog]

bumpersticker time.

redux.

[Show Me the Wire]

Exactly Judge. That is why Vietnam was not a war. Vietnam could not be justified, so LBJ escalated a Police Action. Yeah, I know you are going to tell me people were killed, etc.

But that the fact is Vietnam was a Police Action and not a justifiable war.