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rrbauer
11-23-2008, 06:27 PM
For horseplayers, I’d have to say the answer is “Nowhere”.

The future that I see for racing will depend less and less on horseplayers and their money. While there are a few exceptions, such as Keeneland and Tampa Bay Downs; making changes to improve the horseplayers’ lot do not appear to be high on any racetrack’s “to do” list. The main reason is the push to replace handle as the primary engine for race purses with money from “alternative gaming” sources. In a word, “Slots”.

Not that horseplayers' are all that important in the minds of industry leaders today, but as their money becomes less important then so do they. We can see this in the attitudes of most racetrack executives (and politicians) who find it easier to increase takeout percentages in an attempt to get a few more dollars than to reduce takeout percentages in an attempt to get more handle that will in turn provide the extra dollars that they seek; and, at the same time, extend the horseplayers’ bankrolls a tad farther. With revenue from “alternative gaming” either in the bank, or, on the horizon, where is the motivation for anything but the status quo where horseplayers and handle are concerned? Squeeze that lemon dry!

The industry is replacing the money previously provided by horseplayers via the bets that produced the handle-generated revenue, with the money provided by the general population via slots and other gaming devices. It’s quite a coup, actually. They are succeeding in getting purse subsidies from a much larger population that cost them virtually nothing (it’s more or less a wire transfer) instead of having to rely on an expensive network of bet takers to produce the revenue from a small segment of the population that is becoming smaller day by day. Getting your money that way sure beats having to compete and put on a first-class show to get it from horseplayers.

Now, I happen to think that allowing gaming revenue subsidies to replace handle as the main purse-money engine will turn out to be a mistake. But, it will be a mistake that will be some time in being recognized and it is the short-term financial fix that the industry is looking for today. When it starts to dawn on the voters and politicians that there is money being provided by the general population that is being diverted away from the needs of the general population to satisfy a special-interest group, then horse racing will have reached its dead-end. They will have driven away most of their core constituents, the horseplayers, and replaced them with handle-pullers and button-pushers looking for a jackpot who wouldn’t know an exacta from an enema, and who would think that “twenty-two and change” is some new money denomination for the machines they play.

But, it doesn’t matter what I think. I’m a horseplayer.

point given
11-23-2008, 07:01 PM
Gulfstream comes to mind as prima facia evidence of this. Then delaware, philly etc. Marginalizing the core and enticing the slots crowd. I think i saw Rove in the building :rolleyes:

Tom
11-23-2008, 07:21 PM
Where? DOWNHILL FAST!

Charlie D
11-23-2008, 07:35 PM
The industry is replacing the money previously provided by horseplayers via the bets that produced the handle-generated revenue, with the money provided by the general population via slots and other gaming devices. It’s quite a coup, actually

A new revenue stream means that not as much needs to be taken out of the pools. So when do we as players reap the benefit of Slots and get say 10% take out

Could someone ask the the relevant people for me

point given
11-23-2008, 07:50 PM
A new revenue stream means that not as much needs to be taken out of the pools

When do we as players reap the benefit of Slots and get 10% take out please???

Surely you jest. Rebates, we don't give no stickin' rebates :lol: or as charleton heston said " from my cold dead hands " When keeneland tried to lessen take a few years ago, there was a near revolt. :bang:

DeanT
11-23-2008, 07:51 PM
A new revenue stream means that not as much needs to be taken out of the pools. So when do we as players reap the benefit of Slots and get say 10% take out

Could someone ask the the relevant people for me

Taxes on pools were taken off when slots were introduced, believe it or not, by a forward thinking government (in Ontario Canada). But the industry took it for themselves.

Here is a story on that, as well as people from Pace who signed it. I think people are well aware that it was a mistake. In fact the comments and story was presented to an industry panel of executives and horseman reps.

http://pullthepocket.blogspot.com/2008/04/player-motion-give-tax-back-to-us.html

However, we are asking a monopoly to lower prices. Just like asking an electrical utility to do it, it does not happen. The only way monopolies lower prices is when they are told to. It is why I was happy to hear that congress was looking into racing. Maybe they will force them to compete, because they sure as hell dont want to on their own.

Rich: Well said my friend.

matthewsiv
11-23-2008, 08:15 PM
Horse racing is in serious decline and will only play second fiddle to slots.

I think that many tracks that cannot make money will close and leave maybe one track in Miami,Tampa Bay,Keeneland,Churchill Downs,Philadelphia Park,Aqueduct Belmont and Saratoga and the main tracks in California.

I hope that I am wrong but just my opinion.

Alyblakester
11-23-2008, 08:15 PM
Frankly, I don't know where the game is headed. I would say it's in transition right now about a lot of things. Racetracks are pretty much owned by the casino interests now and that's not good in my opinon. They no longer control their own destiny but it's the racetracks' faults for letting it happen with poor customer service and not updating their facilities to meet the needs of today's consumers. The other thing that's got me is this artificial surface thing going on and I'm not sure what to make of it. I don't like betting on synthetic surfaces all that much but I know it's supposed to be kinder to the horses. :confused:

lamboguy
11-23-2008, 08:44 PM
the game is going to hell.
i just bet the first race at los alamidos, only 10 wps, i bet the 7 horse, when the race broke the 1 had 2000 to show on it, and the 7 had 900 on it to show. after the 1 missed the break he now had 1700 to show on him and 1300 to show on the 7. these things change, but why after the race. if they can't protect the integrety of the wagering pools, they can't do to much with the rest of the game.

these guys running the game are nut's.

they want to steal from the people that give them their paychecks.

and please don;t tell me i am a conspiracy theorist, go call tvg and tell them they are selling a rigged product on their airwaves.

jonnielu
11-23-2008, 08:47 PM
Frankly, I don't know where the game is headed. I would say it's in transition right now about a lot of things. Racetracks are pretty much owned by the casino interests now and that's not good in my opinon. They no longer control their own destiny but it's the racetracks' faults for letting it happen with poor customer service and not updating their facilities to meet the needs of today's consumers. The other thing that's got me is this artificial surface thing going on and I'm not sure what to make of it. I don't like betting on synthetic surfaces all that much but I know it's supposed to be kinder to the horses. :confused:

Evolve or die, the saying goes. My take is that organized racing has been evolving for 20 years already, while the handicapper has stood still for 40 years.
I'm still betting that horse racing will survive.

jdl

plainolebill
11-23-2008, 10:11 PM
Evolve or die, the saying goes. My take is that organized racing has been evolving for 20 years already, while the handicapper has stood still for 40 years.
I'm still betting that horse racing will survive.

jdl

Profound

Plonk!

miesque
11-23-2008, 11:45 PM
I think the landscape of thoroughbred racing is going to change pretty dramatically over the next 10-15 years. There will still be racetracks (albeit fewer) and there will still be horseplayers (hopefully not too much fewer). The racino is a genie that cannot be put back in the bottle, it is here to stay and it’s going to have a defining role in the future of the industry whether we like it or not and the racetracks which transform into the premier racinos will have the edge in terms of purse power and as such will eventually have the best horses running on a consistent basis and as such they will slowly become the premier tracks of the day. There are both positives and negatives associated with racinos, but they are not going away because they are an economic juggernaut in terms of earnings compared to a traditional racetrack and while money is not everything, it’s a pretty powerful force in any business, even one as dysfunctional as racing. Racinos will not be a necessity for all tracks, there will be some premier, boutique meeting which can draw substantial attendance which may be able to survive on its own merits. However, for the vast majority of tracks out there, if a track is unable to convert to a racino with its lucrative purse supplements, it is very likely to be put on the track endangered species list because it will be at a competitive disadvantage to a racino. The tricky part is that just becoming a racino does not in and of itself mean the track is on the express train to easy street because there is a potential for a slippery slope (aka if the track is making so much money on slots why continue to subsidize racing) and not all racinos are alike as far as the terms and conditions they operate under and part of it involves the legislation that was passed legalizing slots and how much power it grants the horsemen of that state and how entrenched they are from a political perspective. Those finer points will be an important factor on how well racing will thrive in those jurisdictions. Up to this point all the racing and casino sides of the racinos have pretty much been owned by the same entity however in New York there is going to be an interesting dynamic at play with different, unaffiliated corporations running the casino and racetrack enterprises. I am curious to see how this unfolds because with a traditional racino, while the racing side may not get the attention it should at times, it is still part of the entity and there is also an element of diversification (even an aesthetic/entertainment angle) whereas with different entities running each side of the show its pretty much direct competition, even with the presence of subsidies. On a positive note, in theory this should increase the customer service dramatically on the racing side simply because they will have to since the presence of any decent casino in the same building is going to raise the bar in terms of how the customer is treated.

takeout
11-23-2008, 11:49 PM
these guys running the game are nut's.
That’s the problem, there is no one running the game. The game needs national rules but I doubt if even that would help much at this point. It's going downhill fast. :ThmbDown:

trigger
11-24-2008, 03:07 AM
Horse racing is in serious decline and will only play second fiddle to slots.

I think that many tracks that cannot make money will close and leave maybe one track in Miami,Tampa Bay,Keeneland,Churchill Downs,Philadelphia Park,Aqueduct Belmont and Saratoga and the main tracks in California.

I hope that I am wrong but just my opinion.

Actually, imho, what you describe would enable racing to survive and prosper (at lower takeouts).

takeout
11-24-2008, 02:28 PM
Charles Town would be a good example of a track that has made many hundreds of millions since it has had slots. There has never been even so much as a hint of a takeout reduction, not even a rumor. Horses will continue to run around in circles on life support from slot dough until politicians decide otherwise. The tracks could care less and their players will remain as screwed as ever.

turfnsport
11-24-2008, 05:32 PM
My take is that organized racing has been evolving for 20 years already, while the handicapper has stood still for 40 years.

jdl

the handicapper has stood still for 40 years? :confused:

More insane dribble from the Dribblemaster. :D

rrbauer
11-24-2008, 05:41 PM
the handicapper has stood still for 40 years? :confused:

More insane dribble from the Dribblemaster. :D

:lol: :lol:

Cangamble
11-24-2008, 05:54 PM
Will the recession wake up the racing industry?

http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2008/11/will-global-recession-wake-up-horse.html

proximity
11-24-2008, 06:04 PM
Charles Town would be a good example of a track that has made many hundreds of millions since it has had slots. There has never been even so much as a hint of a takeout reduction, not even a rumor. Horses will continue to run around in circles on life support from slot dough until politicians decide otherwise. The tracks could care less and their players will remain as screwed as ever.

this is true and ct and hoo are both further screwing the players by running on sunday afternoons instead of sunday nights when there is little other competition. $870 pick 3 and rolling double pools???:lol:

cj
11-24-2008, 06:27 PM
Delaware has to be the worst. Not only is the rake still high, they run crazy short fields so you get screwed by breakage even harder as well.

For all the whining horsemen, just move to Delaware. It is welfare for horsemen, and there is no state sales tax!

jonnielu
11-24-2008, 08:20 PM
the handicapper has stood still for 40 years? :confused:

More insane dribble from the Dribblemaster. :D

Here's your chance to highlight the progress.

jdl

turfnsport
11-24-2008, 08:50 PM
Here's your chance to highlight the progress.

jdl

For starters, I used to use a pencil, and now, thirty years later, I am now using a Precise V5 Extra Fine red pen (rolling ball).

Explaining anything more complicated to you would be fruitless.

jonnielu
11-24-2008, 10:34 PM
For starters, I used to use a pencil, and now, thirty years later, I am now using a Precise V5 Extra Fine red pen (rolling ball).

Explaining anything more complicated to you would be fruitless.

That's a good way to say that you lack enough understanding to explain anything. After 30 years of study.

jdl

turfnsport
11-24-2008, 10:36 PM
That's a good way to say that you lack enough understanding to explain anything. After 30 years of study.

jdl

No, re read my post...It was a nice way of saying

takeout
11-24-2008, 10:39 PM
I am now using a Precise V5 Extra Fine red pen (rolling ball).One of these days I’m gonna get me one of those. :)

turfnsport
11-24-2008, 10:50 PM
One of these days I’m gonna get me one of those. :)

Just don't snap one after a bad beat. :eek:

A mess to clean up.

matthewsiv
11-25-2008, 12:51 PM
CJ

I know that you are a good guy and that you are smart and make money from your betting.

SO WHY HATE THE HORSEMEN?

Without us you would have nothing to bet on!

DeanT
11-25-2008, 01:33 PM
CJ

I know that you are a good guy and that you are smart and make money from your betting.

SO WHY HATE THE HORSEMEN?

Without us you would have nothing to bet on!

I dont hate the horseman. I pay one every month and he does a good job and loves the game.

I hate the fact that their leadership is fighting over a shrinking pie instead of putting policies in place to grow that pie, so their kids and my kids can own, race and bet horses for generations.

ddog
11-25-2008, 01:37 PM
Evolve or die, the saying goes. My take is that organized racing has been evolving for 20 years already, while the handicapper has stood still for 40 years.
I'm still betting that horse racing will survive.

jdl


so the question is , do you consider yourself a "handicrapper"?

Well, due ya???


:lol:

cj
11-25-2008, 02:43 PM
CJ

I know that you are a good guy and that you are smart and make money from your betting.

SO WHY HATE THE HORSEMEN?

Without us you would have nothing to bet on!

I don't hate the horsemen, not even close. Unfortunately, the way the game is set up now, I believe without some serious takeout reductions it is going to die. For every bit the horsemen gain, bettors lose and will find something else.

I do hate slots subsidies in racing. They are totally screwing over bettors. Now, tracks have no incentive at all to make the product better and try to grow the sport. Someday, those subsidies will go away and the tracks will find there are no bettors left. My main gripe is that their are too many tracks and the horses are spread too thin. Slots are a big part of that. It is a great deal for horsemen, but a shitty deal the game.

I don't see how anyone could look at what is going on at Delaware Park and think that is good for any segment of the game other than horsemen stabled at Delaware Park.

As for not having anything to bet on, there are tons of options. If someone is a successful bettor in horse racing, it is pretty much certain they can be successful betting sports, poker, black jack, etc. if they devote the time to it.

Tom
11-25-2008, 03:35 PM
CJ

I know that you are a good guy and that you are smart and make money from your betting.

SO WHY HATE THE HORSEMEN?

Without us you would have nothing to bet on!

You see, this is the basic problem right here.
WE are the customers, not you.
WE provide YOU a reason to run your horses.

Try finding a purse without us. Did you ever see the crowd at the slots when racing was canceled? That should tell you how much you are needed.
Nothing personal, but I learned from the horsemen not to care about anyone but myself, and like it! :p;)

rrbauer
11-25-2008, 03:57 PM
You see, this is the basic problem right here.
WE are the customers, not you.
WE provide YOU a reason to run your horses.

Try finding a purse without us. Did you ever see the crowd at the slots when racing was canceled? That should tell you how much you are needed.
Nothing personal, but I learned from the horsemen not to care about anyone but myself, and like it! :p;)

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Charlie D
11-25-2008, 07:29 PM
You see, this is the basic problem right here.
WE are the customers, not you.
WE provide YOU a reason to run your horses.

Try finding a purse without us. Did you ever see the crowd at the slots when racing was canceled? That should tell you how much you are needed.
Nothing personal, but I learned from the horsemen not to care about anyone but myself, and like it! :p;)


:lol:

Nice one Tom :ThmbUp:

Bruddah
11-25-2008, 08:59 PM
where is this game going? My answer is simple and direct. It's also borrowed from an unknown Author. Answer: To Hell in a hand basket with wheels, going down hill all the way. Just about sums it up for me. :ThmbDown: :(

strapper
11-26-2008, 12:22 PM
The Sport of Kings has been around as long as time. It's not going away - the basic concept anyway. There is a metamorphis of sorts with the technology and people's entertainment priorities I suppose. As long as there are horses men will want to match them. Hopefully, the powers that be will learn from past mistakes and make horse racing all that it can be. There is nothing like racing at the highest echelon with all the color and pageantry!

Premier Turf Club
11-26-2008, 12:44 PM
There is nothing like racing at the highest echelon with all the color and pageantry!

That leaves a couple of high-end race meets / race days (e.g. Triple Crown, BC, Keeneland, Del Mar, Saratoga, etc). I'd venture that a $7500 N2L claimer at 5.5F that is the bread and butter of many, many racetracks would not attract much enthusiasm for it's "color and pageantry." Without ADWs (or slots if they've got them) all but the high-end tracks would be out of business.

turfnsport
11-26-2008, 01:12 PM
That leaves a couple of high-end race meets / race days (e.g. Triple Crown, BC, Keeneland, Del Mar, Saratoga, etc). I'd venture that a $7500 N2L claimer at 5.5F that is the bread and butter of many, many racetracks would not attract much enthusiasm for it's "color and pageantry." Without ADWs (or slots if they've got them) all but the high-end tracks would be out of business.

I'll take nailing a $90 exacta at Charles Town over the "color and pageantry" at Hollywood Park any day of the week. :ThmbUp:

matthewsiv
11-26-2008, 01:36 PM
I don't hate the horsemen, not even close. Unfortunately, the way the game is set up now, I believe without some serious takeout reductions it is going to die. For every bit the horsemen gain, bettors lose and will find something else.

I do hate slots subsidies in racing. They are totally screwing over bettors. Now, tracks have no incentive at all to make the product better and try to grow the sport. Someday, those subsidies will go away and the tracks will find there are no bettors left. My main gripe is that their are too many tracks and the horses are spread too thin. Slots are a big part of that. It is a great deal for horsemen, but a shitty deal the game.

I don't see how anyone could look at what is going on at Delaware Park and think that is good for any segment of the game other than horsemen stabled at Delaware Park.

As for not having anything to bet on, there are tons of options. If someone is a successful bettor in horse racing, it is pretty much certain they can be successful betting sports, poker, black jack, etc. if they devote the time to it.
If you read my original statement we will end up with centralised racing through the year with only the successful tracks and SLOTS tracks remaining in business.
Better prize money in Florida is a must for the class of racing from January to April at Gulfstream.
Also by reducing prize money at Calder through out the year the standard of racing has dropped considerably,with trainers rumored to be leaving with half their strings for Monmouth next spring.
The better the prize money ,the better the horse, equals more betting opportunities than $5,000 claimers.

matthewsiv
11-26-2008, 01:41 PM
You see, this is the basic problem right here.
WE are the customers, not you.
WE provide YOU a reason to run your horses.

Try finding a purse without us. Did you ever see the crowd at the slots when racing was canceled? That should tell you how much you are needed.
Nothing personal, but I learned from the horsemen not to care about anyone but myself, and like it! :p;)

Then your opinion is immaterial then.

Why would I care about you?

According to you I should just care about my take out of the game,not how it can be improved.

How many of you guys even go to the track?

Do you buy food and drinks when you go?

Or do you bet with Twin Crooked Spires?

matthewsiv
11-26-2008, 01:43 PM
That leaves a couple of high-end race meets / race days (e.g. Triple Crown, BC, Keeneland, Del Mar, Saratoga, etc). I'd venture that a $7500 N2L claimer at 5.5F that is the bread and butter of many, many racetracks would not attract much enthusiasm for it's "color and pageantry." Without ADWs (or slots if they've got them) all but the high-end tracks would be out of business.

You are 100% correct.

turfnsport
11-26-2008, 05:15 PM
Do you buy food and drinks when you go?


I have always recommended eating before you go to the track.

Indulto
11-27-2008, 03:10 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=3726799 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=3726799)
Winter of change blows in
By Jeremy Plonk November 25, 2008… What could possibly kick-start the horse racing industry likely has not been introduced. It could be technological; it could be legislative; it could be a personality; it might even have four hooves and a tail. No one's for certain. In this sense, when times are bad, change is good. Perhaps you caught a whiff of that on the political campaign trail?

… The longer you stay successful, the more resentment you're destined to draw. That's what happens in a 24/7 sports news cycle; it's impossible to stay fresh and fun.

… But, at the same time, the "what's next" for horse racing might be every bit as exciting and effective in righting the game's sinking ship. My hunch is that something on the business end is going to break in 2009, something that gives racing a pulse. What do I base that on? Namely, desperate times and an unbelievable amount of core people associated with the sport who love it to no end -- despite its many faults. This game is filled with fans and hard-working individuals who wouldn't know what to do in any other field, nor want to be a part of anything else. They live and breathe racing, and defend it mightily.

We all recognize that money often gets in the way of true progress, offering a short-term pleasure and short cut to doing what's best for the overall good. But the money has dried up in horse racing for the most part. The $500,000-a-pop stallion like Storm Cat is a thing of the past. Seven-figure yearling sales don't fill the business ledger. Crowds of 20,000 and on-track handles exceeding $5 million daily are nearly impossible to come by.

In this strange case, the lack of cashflow in the racing game might be just what the doctor ordered. … Perhaps cooperation is only a few more lost-dollars away.

Thoroughbred racing still has plenty of money in its shoebox, but much less than it used to. The game can't take the easy way out and throw money at its problems. Without that quick-fix, which seldom works anyway, the alternative is to roll up the sleeves and get to work. When everyone was fat and happy, that seemed like an impossible scenario of cooperation. Now it seems like the best way out.

The horses will do their part in sweeping change across the game's landscape. They always do. Now it's up to all of us people earning a living because of those horses to do our part in replenishing the sport.

DeanT
11-27-2008, 04:15 PM
The better the prize money ,the better the horse, equals more betting opportunities than $5,000 claimers.
Unfotunately that has been a red herring. We have heard that for years. Without a better plan for the modern customer we could run 52,000 grade 1's and still be in the tank. In slotsville, which racing has become, there has been no correlation to handles and stock (unfortunately). There is however a correlation between better delivery and lower prices. A $4,000 claimer will have $150,000 matched at betfair tonight, or tomorrow night at Penn National, while the pari mutuel pool flounders.

Purses almost tripled at Philly and it resulted in this (in 2007), and it has gotten much worse this year:

Slot machines were touted as a way to support horse racing at Philadelphia Park, yet the amount of bets on live and simulcast races has dropped 9 percent since the casino opened, state statistics show.

Total race betting at Philadelphia Park is down $39 million when compared to the same months in 2006, according to records from the Pennsylvania Horse Racing Commission.



Racing needs a new business model. The current one is not working.

rrbauer
11-27-2008, 05:18 PM
To continue with Dean's thought:

If you stop and consider, the correlation is between attendance at the live venue and handle. Granted, that correlation will waver some, but if the venue has enough quality to get people to show up for the show then they will also show up with their bankrolls at simulcast sites, OTB's and over the Internet. This is precisely why we keep hammering about the insanity of the daily short-fields, maidens, ultra-low claimers, etc. that make up the preponderance of race cards being presented today. Who gives a rats ass about these races (other than the connections)?

Complicating the problem today is the infusion of purse subsidies from slots and other forms of alternative gaming, which is making handle less relevant and, consequently, you and me are less relevant too. (Not that we ever counted for much.)

sjk
11-27-2008, 05:53 PM
This is precisely why we keep hammering about the insanity of the daily short-fields, maidens, ultra-low claimers, etc. that make up the preponderance of race cards being presented today. Who gives a rats ass about these races (other than the connections)?




People who enjoy betting and winning.

I am totally oblivious to the class of the horses running in a race.

The same small group of people keep posting over and over and over again that they do not care for the races at the smaller tracks. Ok, just ignore them.

I would think that the people that bet on the races and the connections of the entrants do care and that we outnumber you.

rrbauer
11-27-2008, 06:08 PM
People who enjoy betting and winning.

I am totally oblivious to the class of the horses running in a race.

The same small group of people keep posting over and over and over again that they do not care for the races at the smaller tracks. Ok, just ignore them.

I would think that the people that bet on the races and the connections of the entrants do care and that we outnumber you.

I don't think that I've ever taken on the "small" tracks, so point those comments elsewhere. Aside from Tampa (where I'm a regular) I don't know jackcrap about small tracks.

Now, if you're saying that you enjoy a steady diet of 5- and 6-horse fields, maidens-this and maidens-that and low-level conditioned claiming races then I can see how today's racing environment is right up your alley.

So run up your bankroll and don't bother us peons.

Oh! And I don't remember any of your posts over in the "selections" section, either.

proximity
11-27-2008, 09:57 PM
Oh! And I don't remember any of your posts over in the "selections" section, either.

c'mon, over the years sjk's posts have consistently been amongst the most helpful on this forum. should we not be able to respectfully disagree without having to provide selections??

Greyfox
11-27-2008, 10:18 PM
When the last baby boomer dies, would some young poker player please turn out the lights at what used to be our ovals.

trying2win
11-28-2008, 02:06 AM
A great and very relevant thread, and a lot of interesting posts.

I noticed a news article just recently, that Mountaineer Park just laid off some of their employees, because business was declining at their casino. HOORAY! That's the kind of news I like to see. I hope more of that kind of news happens in the next while from other racetrack casinos (yes the sarcasm was intentional!). Maybe the Mountaineer Park customers got tired of being duped by all the glitz and glamor of the "big casino winners' featured in this tracks commmercials or on their walls, or the announcements over the PA systems of the alleged big winners who won so many thousands of dollars (very few...and how come they don't advertise all the more numerous losers?)...or maybe the casino customers who stopped going there started to get educated on why they were losing money consistently over time on unbeatable games that only state, or provincial governments and casino owners get rich on over the long run.

I know some of these things I've mentioned before, but:

1. U.S. and Canadian governments should never have allowed casinos outside of LAS VEGAS and ATLANTIC CITY. All that has caused are a lot of addicted gamblers losing practically everything...their retirement savings, marriage, homes, health. I have a couple of relatives who are addicted to those
#&%@$ VLTS. They have either spent all their retirement savings on VLTS or are broke by the the 15th of the next month gambling on those machines, and then pester me to try and borrow money to go back to the casino. I keep saying NO! They won't admit they have a gambling problem. No matter how many times I explain to them, that you can't beat VLTS in the long run (or for that matter practically any other casino game) they still live in a dream world where they figure the next big jackpot is just around the corner! Now you know one personal reason why I'm against slot machines at racetracks or for that matter any casinos anywhere here in our city.

2. Another beef, is the public welfare racetracks receive usually thanks to spineless politicians in state or porvincial governments who side with sleazy racetrack executives to grant them a partnership in collecting slot machine revenues from naive customers playing those #&%@$ machines. I say eliminate this form of corporate welfare for racetracks and compete like other businesses who have to earn their money through products and services.

3. Whenever people tell me when I'm at Northlands Park about all the money they've lost in the slot machine area of our local racetrack, I explain to them the reasons why ...about the house edge over time will take back all one's winnings on slot machines and most other casino games. I hope some of them have seen the liight. I know if Northlands Park officials saw me giving out that advice to slots losers at the track, they'd probably ban me permanently. I don't care. As I've pointed out, I know personally how becoming addicted to slot machines can ruin peoples lives in more ways than one. I'm on a personal mission through education to save other people through going through all that agony and stess of getting addicted to VLTS and/or other casino games, and all the negative side effects caused by these games to them and their families. Hopefully other concerned people will join the cause and educate family and friends about how casino games operate, and how you can't beat their games in the long run, and to advise them to stay away from casino games.

It's kind of ironical, that in a lot of racetrack programs, the takeouts are listed. So...how come the takeouts are not listed on any slot machine or other casino game?


T2W

badcompany
11-28-2008, 05:30 AM
When the last baby boomer dies, would some young poker player please turn out the lights at what used to be our ovals.

Actually, poker is dying, as well. Most of the poker kids have found out that the life of a professional gambler isn't as glamorous as they had imagined.

proximity
11-28-2008, 05:40 AM
A great and very relevant thread, and a lot of interesting posts.

I noticed a news article just recently, that Mountaineer Park just laid off some of their employees, because business was declining at their casino.

i believe mnr laid off about 90 people to save appoximately 4.3 million. yet recently retired ceo ted arneault walks away with 11.5 million severance, a $400,000 bonus, a house (!!), and another 1.3 million for "consulting" over the next couple years. ONE MAN!!

rastajenk
11-28-2008, 08:33 AM
Trying2win, for the most part I agree with the spirit of your post, but I have to point out that paragraphs 1 and 2 don't jive. You say in #2 that tracks should be forced to compete like every other business, but in #1 you say that governments shouldn't have opened the way for just that kind of competition.

That the expansion of casino gambling has hurt racing more than it has helped is beyond dispute. That we can make changes to best deal with the current situation is a little more murky.

rrbauer
11-28-2008, 09:51 AM
c'mon, over the years sjk's posts have consistently been amongst the most helpful on this forum. should we not be able to respectfully disagree without having to provide selections??

I think that when someone comes weighing in with a lot of huff about their "winning", in the absence of specifics, it smacks of redboarding. Especially after targeting me for judgements about "smaller tracks" that I have NEVER made.

"c'mon" works both ways.

melman
11-28-2008, 11:40 AM
Hope all is going great for you down in good ole oprey land. :) Up here in the slot fueled paradise of Pennsylvania all is well. :jump: The PHA's parking lots are filled day and night. Also Chester Downs for us harness folk is a very nice place to visit if you get up in our area for a visit again.

I agree with your points and hope you have a great meet at what many would call "small track" Tampa. I also think that sjk has overrated the importance of "horseman". The horseplayer really is the game and if they continue to move on to other things the game will be dead except at a few large tracks. I would not like to see that as I enjoy betting the low and mid level claimers just as much or even more than the "high class" races. The reason why is simple, I make more cash from betting them.

One thing I do want to point out to you however is that sjk is one very good handicapper and player. In the "old days" of the web site when people would show up and exchange picks and quips in the War Room sjk was a regular. I have no doubt that he is very good at betting this game as I saw him make post after post of very nice large paying win and exacta hits. Now this was not just one, two, or three times but many many times over an extended period.

strapper
11-28-2008, 12:08 PM
It is possible to have color and pagaentry at a small track but the budgets usually preclude that. Little tracks have to work harder, that's all. To me day racing comes off as more colorful than night racing.

ritz
11-28-2008, 12:16 PM
When the last baby boomer dies, would some young poker player please turn out the lights at what used to be our ovals.

Not everyone can play poker, and many are becoming disinterested with this as well.

Greyfox
11-28-2008, 12:20 PM
Not everyone can play poker, and many are becoming disinterested with this as well.

The bottom line is there are very very few young people being drawn to horse racing. At the various tracks that I've been to, grey hairs prevail.
When those "grey hairs" die, it's over.

Every leisure pursuit requires continual influx from youth or it will die on the vine.
It's just that simple.

miesque
11-28-2008, 12:57 PM
The bottom line is there are very very few young people being drawn to horse racing. At the various tracks that I've been to, grey hairs prevail.
When those "grey hairs" die, it's over.

Every leisure pursuit requires continual influx from youth or it will die on the vine.
It's just that simple.

You have hit the nail on the head. While there are a few select days like the Derby where you will see a small influx of "younger" patrons at the track, on your typical day/night at a track, be it at Belmont Park, Hollywood Park, Penn National or Charles Town if you are in your mid 30s like I am you are certainly on the lower end of the age range and I see very few younger then myself at the track. I think that most will agree that my particular demographic (30s, female, single) is a pretty slim minority of the patrons at an average day at an average racetrack.

Bruddah
11-28-2008, 01:40 PM
i believe mnr laid off about 90 people to save appoximately 4.3 million. yet recently retired ceo ted arneault walks away with 11.5 million severance, a $400,000 bonus, a house (!!), and another 1.3 million for "consulting" over the next couple years. ONE MAN!!

Those 90 employess are paying for Ted Arsenaults buy out. And, they wonder why there is no employee loyalty. Add these numbers up!
11.5 mil severance
.4 bonus
1.3 mil consulting
.?? house
-------------------
13.2 mil +plus house / savings on 90 emplyees 4.3 mil annual
= 3.07 years

And Ted wonders why so few attended his reirement dinner. All this for running a mid level Racino. Nice work if you can get it. You think he had someone siging "Thanks for the memories" as he ate his filet mignon at the good bye dinner? :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

takeout
11-28-2008, 03:52 PM
[QUOTE=Bruddah]Those 90 employess are paying for Ted Arsenaults buy out. [QUOTE]I recall reading that he left with the stock price in the toilet as well. And they want to keep this guy around as a consultant? That’s got to rank right up there with Magna keeping DeFrancis around in MD. Boggles the mind.

DeanT
11-28-2008, 03:54 PM
Not sure about the demographic but if Katy at Hawthorne keeps interviewing the "Loop Rock" girl like she is right now it will skew younger :)

proximity
11-29-2008, 01:24 AM
You think he had someone siging "Thanks for the memories" as he ate his filet mignon at the good bye dinner? :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

you are right bruddah. and we can only be left to wonder what the 90 people let go will be eating at their retirement dinners.

all of these slots, poker, and table games supposedly approved to provide jobs and help the citizens of wva. instead the only winners turn out to be mr arneault and his backstretch full of juice trainers......

2low
11-29-2008, 03:05 AM
A lot of poker players would drift to horse racing if the industry would go get them. I've played a ton - a ton - of poker online and a little live. For me, the computer is a very comfy place to bet the horses. Teach all these math minded on-line poker kids about the ponies, and you've got yourself a new generation of horse players.

I'm finding horse handicapping to be very similar to poker. It's all math and it's all about the long haul. The only difference is I don't have to wonder when the gubmint is going to take horse racing away from me. Just have to worry about the people running the industry taking it away from me:confused:

That, and I'm not bored with horse racing yet:) It's giving me a new challenge and a good reason to relearn how macros work. My black box is in Alpha:cool: .

rrbauer
11-29-2008, 08:54 AM
A lot of poker players would drift to horse racing if the industry would go get them. I've played a ton - a ton - of poker online and a little live. For me, the computer is a very comfy place to bet the horses. Teach all these math minded on-line poker kids about the ponies, and you've got yourself a new generation of horse players.

I'm finding horse handicapping to be very similar to poker. It's all math and it's all about the long haul. The only difference is I don't have to wonder when the gubmint is going to take horse racing away from me. Just have to worry about the people running the industry taking it away from me:confused:

That, and I'm not bored with horse racing yet:) It's giving me a new challenge and a good reason to relearn how macros work. My black box is in Alpha:cool: .

No bluffing in racing.

Greyfox
11-29-2008, 10:42 AM
No bluffing in racing.

Wanna bet on that? ;) There are a lot of hidden moves in many races every day. But I don't want to take us off topic. :)

2low
11-29-2008, 11:39 AM
No bluffing in racing.

Bluffing is both overrated and part of the math equation when making a decision. Believe me, racing would appeal to many more poker players than not.

rrbauer
12-03-2008, 09:56 AM
The Daily Paulick Poll


Are you confident the individuals in charge of the most prominent racing and breeding organizations in the United States are adequately addressing the problems the industry is currently facing?

1) Confident (10%)
2) Not Confident (84%)
3) Unsure (6%)

proximity
12-03-2008, 09:59 AM
The Daily Paulick Poll


Are you confident the individuals in charge of the most prominent racing and breeding organizations in the United States are adequately addressing the problems the industry is currently facing?

1) Confident (10%)
2) Not Confident (84%)
3) Unsure (6%)

and just where did they find this 16% who voted 1 and 3 ??:)

miesque
12-03-2008, 10:06 AM
and just where did they find this 16% who voted 1 and 3 ??:)

How about said "individuals in charge of the most prominent racing and breeding organizations" and their lackeys?

Cangamble
12-03-2008, 10:11 AM
How about said "individuals in charge of the most prominent racing and breeding organizations" and their lackeys?
Without a doubt they voted 1. Not sure who voted 3.

proximity
12-03-2008, 10:12 AM
How about said "individuals in charge of the most prominent racing and breeding organizations" and their lackeys?

you're right. they probably had the lackeys voting day and night on every computer they could find!! :)

DeanT
12-09-2008, 10:44 PM
Incredible!

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/48378.htm?id=48378

Racing’s share of Aqueduct VLT revenue is as follows: 6.5%-7.5% for purses, 4% for capital expenditures, 3% for NYRA operating expenses, and 1%-1.5% for breed development. Hayward said that based on a win-per-machine of $300 per day, purses would get another $32 million a year for a total of $150 million at Aqueduct, Belmont Park, and Saratoga.

I can not believe this franchise, who just (sorry, Little guy will get mad at me), who's State just added to takeout, while horseplayers leave in droves to play other games, has the exact same deal that has done nothing for handles in the other slots jurisdictions. That percentage mix was tried in Canada and elsewhere, a decade ago, and it failed miserably.

Once, just once I would like to see this from these people:

"Racing’s share of Aqueduct VLT revenue is as follows: 6.5% for purses, 2% for capital expenditures, 1% for NYRA operating expenses, and 4% to attract horseplayers through an internet marketing strategy, increases in NYRA rebates and rewards, and on track promotion, so that when slots are cut in ten years, we still have a business"

Am I dreaming? Why does this business do the same thing over and over again, when over and over again what they've done has not worked?

slewis
12-09-2008, 11:57 PM
Incredible!

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/48378.htm?id=48378



I can not believe this franchise, who just (sorry, Little guy will get mad at me), who's State just added to takeout, while horseplayers leave in droves to play other games, has the exact same deal that has done nothing for handles in the other slots jurisdictions. That percentage mix was tried in Canada and elsewhere, a decade ago, and it failed miserably.

Once, just once I would like to see this from these people:

"Racing’s share of Aqueduct VLT revenue is as follows: 6.5% for purses, 2% for capital expenditures, 1% for NYRA operating expenses, and 4% to attract horseplayers through an internet marketing strategy, increases in NYRA rebates and rewards, and on track promotion, so that when slots are cut in ten years, we still have a business"

Am I dreaming? Why does this business do the same thing over and over again, when over and over again what they've done has not worked?



Hey Dean... how's about a breakdown like this:

Racing's share of VLT revenue in NY: 0% for purses, 0% for cap expenditures, 0% operating expenses, etc etc etc.

Unless VLT's are installed on private property, what claim does the racing industry have to a piece of that revenue?

IN the situation in NY, the state owns the land, NYRA should get nothing, especially in an economy like this.

I GUARANTEE (of course we'll never know) that had NYRA's franchise been up for renewal this yr instead of last, there would have been a very different deal, if any at all.
Even this new dopey Gov. we have in NY said publicly that he didn't understand why the state cut this current sweetheart deal. Maybe he should go back and ask his daddy how the political process really works and he could have his answer.
If he had any balls he'd go back into court and have this reversed, and let the TAXPAYERS keep the slot revenue, not fill the pockets of racing people.

RichieP
12-10-2008, 06:22 AM
Bluffing is both overrated and part of the math equation when making a decision. Believe me, racing would appeal to many more poker players than not.

Maybe initially but once these "math equation" sharpies got a look at racing's rakes and the many piss poor excuses of racing cards being put out today I think the stampede would come to a quick conclusion.

jonnielu
12-10-2008, 07:14 AM
Incredible!

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/48378.htm?id=48378



I can not believe this franchise, who just (sorry, Little guy will get mad at me), who's State just added to takeout, while horseplayers leave in droves to play other games, has the exact same deal that has done nothing for handles in the other slots jurisdictions. That percentage mix was tried in Canada and elsewhere, a decade ago, and it failed miserably.

Once, just once I would like to see this from these people:

"Racing’s share of Aqueduct VLT revenue is as follows: 6.5% for purses, 2% for capital expenditures, 1% for NYRA operating expenses, and 4% to attract horseplayers through an internet marketing strategy, increases in NYRA rebates and rewards, and on track promotion, so that when slots are cut in ten years, we still have a business"

Am I dreaming? Why does this business do the same thing over and over again, when over and over again what they've done has not worked?


Because there is still some business walking in the door.

jdl

badcompany
12-10-2008, 08:31 AM
Maybe initially but once these "math equation" sharpies got a look at racing's rakes and the many piss poor excuses of racing cards being put out today I think the stampede would come to a quick conclusion.

Poker also has visible examples of winners who have made serious money: Phil Hellmuth, Chris Ferguson et al.

I can't imagine a young guy saying "I wanna be like him!" as he watches a foul-smelling, dentally challenged horseplayer screaming obsenities at a televison set?

DanG
12-10-2008, 09:08 AM
Poker also has visible examples of winners who have made serious money: Phil Hellmuth, Chris Ferguson et al.

I can't imagine a young guy saying "I wanna be like him!" as he watches a foul-smelling, dentally challenged horseplayer screaming obsenities at a televison set?
I hear your point, but God help us all if young people want to be like Phil Hellmuth! :eek:

He’s a perfect example of old / new Vegas. If he ran his mouth like that in the past his feet would be pointing north in a dumpster. (Figuratively speaking of course ;) )

Cangamble
12-10-2008, 09:41 AM
Because there is still some business walking in the door.

jdl
:bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

Cangamble
12-10-2008, 09:46 AM
I hear your point, but God help us all if young people want to be like Phil Hellmuth! :eek:

He’s a perfect example of old / new Vegas. If he ran his mouth like that in the past his feet would be pointing north in a dumpster. (Figuratively speaking of course ;) )
There are very good examples of people who make money playing pro poker that are pretty good role models when it comes to rising from the ashes and becoming rich because of winnings.
How many Canadians poker players do you think Dan Negreanu created? I'd say lots and lots.

My mother at 70 makes a G note a month consistently playing poker online. It used to be more, but a lot of the online mooches have disappeared in the last year or so (maybe due to the American laws combined with others getting tired of losing).

DanG
12-10-2008, 10:22 AM
There are very good examples of people who make money playing pro poker that are pretty good role models when it comes to rising from the ashes and becoming rich because of winnings.
How many Canadians poker players do you think Dan Negreanu created? I'd say lots and lots.

My mother at 70 makes a G note a month consistently playing poker online. It used to be more, but a lot of the online mooches have disappeared in the last year or so (maybe due to the American laws combined with others getting tired of losing).
I was isolating the Phil Hellmuth’s of the world and not the entire poker establishment.

I will say; the reports of how many win at poker are GROSSLY exaggerated. For every hot shot we see there are so many who left Vegas / So Cal with a pawn slip. Ask Ken Massa about the many horror stories in California / Nevada who thought it was it was the gold rush all over again.

You brought up Daniel Negreanu and he’s at the other end of the spectrum. He’s not one of these brats as he came along before the poker boom and has respect for protocol and traditions. Great guy and as you said; clearly is a strong ambassador for the game to go with his tremendous gambling instincts.

Speaking of these two men as examples…



Here is Daniel Negreanu making reads that only a handful of people can… :ThmbUp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO8k47_lP0M

Here is Phil Hellmuth / being Phil :ThmbDown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0llPlDUQYg

rrbauer
12-17-2008, 10:00 AM
Signed by the infamous Governor B.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/100576.html