Thomas Paine Speaks

[Dave Schwartz]

A most worthwhile video.

http://www.lawatchdog.com:80/SecondRevolution071108.html

[HUSKER55]

That a boy Dave !!!!!:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

It is something all of us should do. That man is correct all the way

[JustRalph]

Watch it Dave........ If I had posted that video I would be a xenophobic racist bastard.............

great video

[Floyd]

The man in the video apparently lacks the ability to understand anything written by the man he purports to emulate. The video is an insult to an American hero and a misguided and pitiful attempt to arrest the inevitable march of linguistic evolution in the name of "National Unity." It's funny how the narrow minded love to mock the French, except, it seems, when it comes to matters linguistic. Thomas Paine had a dream of a more accepting and inclusive United States, and would have been appalled at the divisiveness expressed by this creep in a costume.

Common Sense: (http://www.ushistory.org/PAINE/commonsense/sense4.htm)
"It is pleasant to observe by what regular gradations we surmount the force of local prejudices, as we enlarge our acquaintance with the World. A man born in any town in England divided into parishes, will naturally associate most with his fellow parishioners (because their interests in many cases will be common) and distinguish him by the name of NEIGHBOR; if he meet him but a few miles from home, he drops the narrow idea of a street, and salutes him by the name of TOWNSMAN; if he travel out of the county and meet him in any other, he forgets the minor divisions of street and town, and calls him COUNTRYMAN, i.e. COUNTYMAN; but if in their foreign excursions they should associate in France, or any other part of EUROPE, their local remembrance would be enlarged into that of ENGLISHMEN. And by a just parity of reasoning, all Europeans meeting in America, or any other quarter of the globe, are COUNTRYMEN; for England, Holland, Germany, or Sweden, when compared with the whole, stand in the same places on the larger scale, which the divisions of street, town, and county do on the smaller ones; Distinctions too limited for Continental minds. Not one third of the inhabitants, even of this province, [Pennsylvania], are of English descent. Wherefore, I reprobate the phrase of Parent or Mother Country applied to England only, as being false, selfish, narrow and ungenerous."

[boxcar]

The man in the video apparently lacks the ability to understand anything written by the man he purports to emulate. The video is an insult to an American hero and a misguided and pitiful attempt to arrest the inevitable march of linguistic evolution in the name of "National Unity." It's funny how the narrow minded love to mock the French, except, it seems, when it comes to matters linguistic. Thomas Paine had a dream of a more accepting and inclusive United States, and would have been appalled at the divisiveness expressed by this creep in a costume.

Permit me to expand on what your misguided idea of an insult is by providing some real ones. True Americans are insulted when foreigners living in our land throw their language in our faces because they refuse to learn ours due to their arrogance, laziness or ignorance.

True Americans are insulted when they have to subject themselves to a menu of language options on a phone.

True Americans are insulted when they have to open a product manual and search through pages of different languages to find the common, settled language upon which this nation settled over two centuries ago.

True Americans are insulted when they go to their local supermarkets and have to dig through the weekly ads to find one in our common language.

True Americans' intelligence is insulted when we have to listen to mindless drivel about the evils of nationalism and the virtues of globalism, how unity can somehow emerge out of multiculturalism and about how the onus is on the English-speaking citizens and residents of this country to tolerate the arrogance, laziness and ignorance of the foreign language speakers and that all the responsibility for education lies with this English speaking people of this nation.

I no doubt left some things out but I think I've covered most of the bases.

Boxcar

[Tom]

Amen, Boxcar.:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[bigmack]

As a fan of TPaine, what does the vid have to do with him?

[OTM Al]

Permit me to expand on what your misguided idea of an insult is by providing some real ones. True Americans are insulted when foreigners living in our land throw their language in our faces because they refuse to learn ours due to their arrogance, laziness or ignorance.

True Americans are insulted when they have to subject themselves to a menu of language options on a phone.

True Americans are insulted when they have to open a product manual and search through pages of different languages to find the common, settled language upon which this nation settled over two centuries ago.

True Americans are insulted when they go to their local supermarkets and have to dig through the weekly ads to find one in our common language.

True Americans' intelligence is insulted when we have to listen to mindless drivel about the evils of nationalism and the virtues of globalism, how unity can somehow emerge out of multiculturalism and about how the onus is on the English-speaking citizens and residents of this country to tolerate the arrogance, laziness and ignorance of the foreign language speakers and that all the responsibility for education lies with this English speaking people of this nation.

I no doubt left some things out but I think I've covered most of the bases.

Boxcar

I believe you left out the part about how true Americans post signs like "No Irish need apply" and the like so that such undesirables would never get a job here, even if they were citizens.

[boxcar]

Here's pretty darn good article on the dangers of multiculturalism. And one of the biggest dangers is that we have allowed left-wing extremists to define what multiculturalism is, which means that those of us who don't buy into their nonsense can be labeled by them as "racists" or "xenophobes".

"Since the 1960s, multiculturalism has become a dominant feature of the political and intellectual landscape of the West. But multiculturalism rests on a frail foundation: cultural relativism, the notion that no culture is better or worse than any other – it is merely different.

When it comes to democratic continuity, social justice, and prosperity, some cultures do far better than others. Research at Tufts University's Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, summarized in my recent book, "The Central Liberal Truth: How Politics Can Change a Culture and Save It From Itself," makes this clear.

Extensive data suggest that the champions of progress are the Nordic countries – Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden – where, for example, universal literacy was a substantial reality in the 19th century. By contrast, no Arab country today is democratic, and female illiteracy in some Arab countries exceeds 50 percent.

Culture isn't about genes or race; it's about values, beliefs, and attitudes. Culture matters because it influences a society's receptivity to democracy, justice, entrepreneurship, and free-market institutions." (emphasis mine)

Full story at this link:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0226/p09s01-coop.html?page=1

Boxcar

[boxcar]

I believe you left out the part about how true Americans post signs like "No Irish need apply" and the like so that such undesirables would never get a job here, even if they were citizens.

I didn't leave out anything; but you are confusing apples for oranges.

Boxcar

[Burls]

True Americans are insulted when foreigners living in our land throw their language in our faces because they refuse to learn ours due to their arrogance, laziness or ignorance.To some extent, I am sympathetic when Indigenous North Americans complain about the changes that were forced upon everyone by the the Anglo-European influx a couple of centuries ago.

[Burls]

Extensive data suggest that the champions of progress are the Nordic countries – Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden – where, for example, universal literacy was a substantial reality in the 19th century.Hold it just a cotton pickin' minute here.
Those countries have SOCIALIST governments, don't they?
No decent American would condone the practices of PINKOS like that.

[rastajenk]

Yeah, I'm sure the world would have been better off if this entire continent were still peopled by believers in human sacrifice. For some reason, I don't think the ways and means of native cultures jive much with the modern progressives' core beliefs. But that doesn't stop modern progressives from extolling the virtues of the Indians at the expense of the evil white Euro devil-men.

[LottaKash]

A most worthwhile video.

Thx Dave, couldn't have said it any better, as many times I ineptly fail to do so....

I believe if any American takes any strong objection or exception to what this man and his message is trying to relate to us, well, I take exception to that person, that's all .....

best,

[Floyd]

Permit me to expand on what your misguided idea of an insult is by providing some real ones. True Americans are insulted when foreigners living in our land throw their language in our faces because they refuse to learn ours due to their arrogance, laziness or ignorance.

True Americans are insulted when they have to subject themselves to a menu of language options on a phone.

True Americans are insulted when they have to open a product manual and search through pages of different languages to find the common, settled language upon which this nation settled over two centuries ago.

True Americans are insulted when they go to their local supermarkets and have to dig through the weekly ads to find one in our common language.

True Americans' intelligence is insulted when we have to listen to mindless drivel about the evils of nationalism and the virtues of globalism, how unity can somehow emerge out of multiculturalism and about how the onus is on the English-speaking citizens and residents of this country to tolerate the arrogance, laziness and ignorance of the foreign language speakers and that all the responsibility for education lies with this English speaking people of this nation.

I no doubt left some things out but I think I've covered most of the bases.

Boxcar

Thank you for your definition of "True Americans."
I know. Foreigners talk funny. It's like they've got a different word for everything. And they're so lazy all the time. Except when they're working two or three jobs. When they're not working they're lazy because they sleep. Can't get much lazier than that.
And arrogant? My word, they're walking around so proud of the fact that they can speak a foreign language and we can't. You can see it in their eyes when I ask them to take my bags up to my room. "Schleppo el baggo to el roomo, con queso." I'll say, just as clear as day, and they get all arrogant and look at me like I'm the idiot. I know how you feel. It burns my britches.
There ought to be a law, you know, because government can fix everything. Government could have stopped the Great Vowel Shift, so we could all still be speaking the Kings English, like it was meant to be spake. I nam wood yow weren nyce. Know what I mean? Of course you do, because you're not ignorant. Except when it comes to other languages, and the difference between an article and an opinion piece. But that's not ignorance, that's pride, right? And you're not arrogant, wanting everybody else in the country to learn English right now, immediately, isn't arrogance, that's just practicality. Except for your grandma, She could speak Italian all she wanted, because she was from the old country, but everybody else? Get with the program, because Boxcar is tired of being insulted every time he picks up the phone, or goes to the grocery store, or hears somebody speaking another language, or when someone tells him that Taco Bell isn't real Mexican food. I know exactly how you feel, walking through life full of righteous anger because the world doesn't conform. I don't blame you, change is really really scary. It's no wonder you're bitter.

[LottaKash]

Foreigners talk funny. conform. I don't blame you, change is really really scary. It's no wonder you're bitter.

Floyd, I decided to take much of what you had just said as funny....I don't think that was your intent, your post was a bit more of sarcasim, but I laughed with you anyway......

Firstly, I am a great believer in the American Dream, and that every one has a right to be on this planet and especially in this country (leagally that is)....Both sides of my Grand-parents came off the boat from Lithuania..They took their turn on the long list of other ethinic cultures that had a turn in the barrel in getting acquainted with the rights and procedures in becoming and being an American.....All four of my Grandparents spoke in Broken-English, but they did learn to speak English as it was required, unlike today....They were proud of it, they proved their worth as americans by following it's traditions
and laws...They tried hard to meld into the great society, without being singled out like every other nationality had been singled out...(that hasn't changed)... Trouble with the newer invaders, is, that they want it all their own way with trying to be a true American as were our predecessors.......I get quite pissed that it should all be just handed to them....My grand parents and parents worked their butts off and and maybe harder than the ones that you had so sarcatically described....So, other than a rant, what is your point ?...and, I mean that in a most respectful way.....There are already too many bleeding heart liberals in this country, please don't tell me that you are another one, please.....

best,

[HUSKER55]

How come we used to be able to say a prayer before school and the pledge of allegience until foreigners and the ACLU came along and said no because one or two might get their feelings hurt? But they teach Islam.

Liberals think 10% should tell 90% what is morally right?

I have had diversity up to here. Have you ever read a current history book in school. Go buy one and check it out.

[JustRalph]

Liberals think 10% should tell 90% what is morally right?


Actually, if you go by the election results, it is

52.8 percent versus 45.9 percent want to tell you who is morally right.

Toss in the Libertarians and it is 52.8 percent want to tell 46.9 what is morally right. Pretty much 50/50 all the way around. But you make a valid point

[sammy the sage]

Burls said it BEST:

"To some extent, I am sympathetic when Indigenous North Americans complain about the changes that were forced upon everyone by the the Anglo-European influx a couple of centuries ago."'

Boxcar...GET OVER yourself...

[jonnielu]

How come we used to be able to say a prayer before school and the pledge of allegience until foreigners and the ACLU came along and said no because one or two might get their feelings hurt? But they teach Islam.

Liberals think 10% should tell 90% what is morally right?

I have had diversity up to here. Have you ever read a current history book in school. Go buy one and check it out.

Liberals don't think anything, they know and believe "divide and conquer".

They do that politically with the federal reserve bank, and the federal income tax. Those allow politicians to take the money of one, and use it to buy the vote of 2 others.

Right/wrong, and good/bad, soon fade into the gray of "divide and conquer".

jdl

[Tom]

I didn't leave out anything; but you are confusing apples for oranges.

Boxcar

Amen, again, my brother.....TESTIFY!
I love the spin they keep putting on things.

[OTM Al]

I didn't leave out anything; but you are confusing apples for oranges.

Boxcar

Oranges are the ones that are most often orange, right?

[TurfRuler]

Sitting at the dinner table last night, three Mexicans or South Americans from across the border were talking Spanish to each other. When one of them said to me "could you pass the salt".

Good thing real Americans don't believe in Manifest Destiny or "the only good indian is a dead indian, or it you're white your right, if you're black step back.

[Floyd]

Floyd, I decided to take much of what you had just said as funny....I don't think that was your intent, your post was a bit more of sarcasim, but I laughed with you anyway......


Laugh with me or laugh at me, as long as you're laughing it's music to my ears.
The immigrant story is the same no matter what the country of origin. My family on my mom's side came over on the Mayflower, and my dad's family arrived here soon after. My family fought the Indians, the French, the French and Indians, the British and the British again in order to make this the place to come if you wanted an opportunity, then they fought each other so that those we dragged over in chains would be afforded that same chance. My dad's family spoke German in the house exclusively until World War 1.

When your grandparents came from Lithuania maybe they came to Chicago, where a lot of them worked in the stock yards. (The main character in Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" is a Lithuanian immigrant.) In Chicago they might have moved to the Lithuanian neighborhood on Halsted, where they had neighbors who spoke Lithuanian, Lithuanian grocery stores and the Church of St. George, which became a center of Lithuanian culture in the U.S. My point is, they did what other immigrants do when they arrive, connect with folks who share their culture and language and learn how to navigate, negotiate and, yes, assimilate. In the process they've added immeasurably to our culture.

The 34 million native Spanish speakers in the U.S. are doing the same thing the Irish, the Poles, the Jews, the Hmong, the Latvians, the Italians, the... you get the picture, have been doing ever since Kasimir Pulaski helped us win the Revolutionary War. The "English-Only" bogeyman is a tired canard, part of the feeling of victimization "Big C" Conservatives in this country seem so fond of. The fact is, most immigrants to this country assimilate, and their native language is replaced by English in two generations. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_shift#North_America) Anybody that tells you different is trying to sell you something.

As for my politics? I consider myself more Progressive than Liberal. I'm against big banks, big business, big government and big labor. "Too big to fail" is just plain too big, and the folks who actually do the work in this country have been getting the shaft ever since the Constitution was signed. This "Us vs. Them" mentality is being promoted by billionaires pretending to be the "Average Joe" in order to distract us from the fact that the value of our houses have dropped, our retirement savings are gone, we're mired in a mistake of a war in the Middle East, and if we get sick or hurt we'd better hope it's fatal, because the bills will kill us.
Why the distraction? Because they're afraid that if we wake up and see the obscene profits that they've made by promoting fear they'd all lose their seat on the gravy train.
This rant is too long, and not near as funny as you deserve, but I'm tired of all the whining and blame, and I hope that we as a nation realize that the "Them" the billionaire bloviators and piss-pot pundits are trying to make us fear is really just "Us" a couple generations removed.

[Tom]

English as our official language only makes sense. It is cheaper to support one than many, and how can you share a culture, as Boxcar pointed out, if you cannot communicate with each other? Multiple lingos is a divider, not a uniter.
But nice spin guys, trying to turn it into a racial thing. Tired old song, boys, donncha know?

[Floyd]

English as our official language only makes sense.

English is for all intents and purposes already the official language of the United States. You know it, Boxcar knows it, and all the immigrants, legal and otherwise, know it. That's why most everybody learns to speak it by the second generation. Passing a law will not change that, and anyone advocating the passage of such a law is just pandering for political gain.

[JustRalph]

The 34 million native Spanish speakers in the U.S. are doing the same thing the Irish, the Poles, the Jews, the Hmong, the Latvians, the Italians, the... you get the picture, have been doing ever since Kasimir Pulaski helped us win the Revolutionary War. The "English-Only" bogeyman is a tired canard, part of the feeling of victimization "Big C" Conservatives in this country seem so fond of. The fact is, most immigrants to this country assimilate, and their native language is replaced by English in two generations. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_shift#North_America) Anybody that tells you different is trying to sell you something.

There is a difference in both the immigrants and the time frame in which we live today. Many of the immigrants you list fondly above, were documented and entered through Ellis Island over a very long period of time. Unless of course you want to include the Mayflower Generation etc. The conditions in the country were much different and they as groups were able to find work etc..............today's Illegal Immigrant is non traceable and in this time of terrorism a much greater threat. You can't compare the two time frames or the types of people entering the country now. Another apples to oranges comparison. When you consider the differences and fail to disregard the time frame, the world in which we live today etc, there is great reason to not look upon todays Illegal immigrant the same as those from previous periods.

[boxcar]

To some extent, I am sympathetic when Indigenous North Americans complain about the changes that were forced upon everyone by the the Anglo-European influx a couple of centuries ago.

Considering that there was no single "indigenous North American" language in this country a couple of centuries ago, I'd say that in retrospect that "Anglo-European influx" was a real Godsend, wouldn't you agree?

Boxcar

[Burls]

Considering that there was no single "indigenous North American" language in this country a couple of centuries ago, I'd say that in retrospect that "Anglo-European influx" was a real Godsend, wouldn't you agree?

BoxcarWhat's wrong with those Indigenous North Americans? They should be grateful, and here they are resentful.

[Burls]

Extensive data suggest that the champions of progress are the Nordic countries – Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden – where, for example, universal literacy was a substantial reality in the 19th century.I'm much more concerned with the fact that you, of all people, Boxcar, are posting socialist propaganda on the PA Message Boards.
You cannot be serious!!

[boxcar]

Laugh with me or laugh at me, as long as you're laughing it's music to my ears...The "English-Only" bogeyman is a tired canard, part of the feeling of victimization "Big C" Conservatives in this country seem so fond of. The fact is, most immigrants to this country assimilate, and their native language is replaced by English in two generations. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_shift#North_America) Anybody that tells you different is trying to sell you something.

If anyone was sold a bill of goods, it's you! When I grew up and my parents grew up, we weren't inundated with ads in different languages or with instructions in a half dozen or more languages. Moreover, no one (including Big Gov) tried to sell us the bill of goods that we had to shoulder the responsibility for educating ourselves, accepting and understanding other people's cultures, which is today's moronic message. Wake up and smell the coffee and try moving into the 21st century to see what's going on.
As JR essentially said, the times are very different.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Oranges are the ones that are most often orange, right?

You're half way home.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

What's wrong with those Indigenous North Americans? They should be grateful, and here they are resentful.

It's called "looking a gift horse in the mouth", I believe.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

I'm much more concerned with the fact that you, of all people, Boxcar, are posting socialist propaganda on the PA Message Boards.
You cannot be serious!!

Only believable by dummies who extrapolate a quote that was provided to substantiate a cultural point. Nothing political in the text. Check it out again after removing your rose-colored specs.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Who knew Thomas Paine hailed from Bensonhurst?

[Floyd]

If anyone was sold a bill of goods, it's you! When I grew up and my parents grew up, we weren't inundated with ads in different languages or with instructions in a half dozen or more languages. Moreover, no one (including Big Gov) tried to sell us the bill of goods that we had to shoulder the responsibility for educating ourselves, accepting and understanding other people's cultures, which is today's moronic message. Wake up and smell the coffee and try moving into the 21st century to see what's going on.
As JR essentially said, the times are very different.

Boxcar

Boy, those ads really bother you. Is it really that hard for you to buy stuff? When I as little, which was admittedly a long time ago, my little town in western Michigan was filled with first and second generation Dutch, who spoke Dutch every chance they got. They went to churches with sermons in Dutch, the grocery store and clothing store and hardware store had signs and (gasp) ads in Dutch. Admittedly, they were all tall and blonde and if you didn't listen very carefully the language they were speaking had the same cadences and tonal qualities of the English I grew up speaking, so if you didn't pay attention they didn't sound foreign, but it wasn't the language of the country they'd adopted. By the second generation that was fading, without the intervention of that Big Government you seem have such a love/hate relationship with.
I know. You're a victim. You enjoy it. It makes you feel important and oppressed and by golly something must be done. You can't even program that Chinese DVD player because the damned Chinese are selling stuff to foreigners, so their instruction books are filled with gobbledygook that only confuses you and makes you angry. This 21st century world is confusing, everything you know has turned out to be wrong, and you have a hard time in the grocery store because you don't know the Spanish word for "Taco" so the little woman can make supper. Life is hard, but asking the government to pass a law so you don't have to have your personal space invaded by alien words and concepts is really not the answer. That personal responsibility you keep harping on? Maybe you ought to take a little bit of that on yourself, because the wave is cresting, Boxcar, and you're either going to ride it or get caught in the undertow.

[boxcar]

Boy, those ads really bother you. Is it really that hard for you to buy stuff?

The larger points I have made have completely eluded you. Not surprised. They would pass unnoticed to anyone who has his head buried in the tar pit. Hope you make it up for air someday.

Boxcar

[wonatthewire1]

Who knew Thomas Paine hailed from Bensonhurst?


Pretty close...he died in a boarding house on Grove Street in Greenwich Village Manhattan in 1809

[Floyd]

The larger points I have made have completely eluded you. Not surprised. They would pass unnoticed to anyone who has his head buried in the tar pit. Hope you make it up for air someday.

Boxcar

Oh. Right. I forgot. You're a victim.
Must be my fault then.

[boxcar]

Oh. Right. I forgot. You're a victim.

Well, if I am, you must admit that I've had some excellent teachers and role models -- the likes of Jesse the Jackass, Al-Not-So-Sharpton, the Rev. Wright, Obama, Ayers, etc.

Must be my fault then.

Self-imposed ignorance usually is. Confess and repent of your self-destructive ways before it's too late.

Boxcar

[Floyd]

Well, if I am, you must admit that I've had some excellent teachers and role models -- the likes of Jesse the Jackass, Al-Not-So-Sharpton, the Rev. Wright, Obama, Ayers, etc.

Boxcar

Hoo. Clever! "Jesse the Jackass, Al-Not-So-Sharpton!" Ho Ho! I anxiously await the "I know you are, but what am I" retort, closely followed by "I'm Rubber, You're Glue."

Face it. You've got nothing. You're a scared little man cowering in a corner bellowing while the waves of change wash over you.

[PaceAdvantage]

Seems to me that Floyd really wants to call Boxcar a racist, but for some reason, can't bring himself to do so....Then again, I could be wrong.

(Note the clever use of "tall and blonde" and "if you didn't listen very carefully the language they were speaking had the same cadences and tonal qualities.")

[PaceAdvantage]

Pretty close...he died in a boarding house on Grove Street in Greenwich Village Manhattan in 1809Yes, but for the first half of his life he lived in England, so I doubt he would have acquired such a heavy NY/Brooklyn accent...thanks for killing my little joke....:lol:

[rgustafson]

Seems to me that Floyd really wants to call Boxcar a racist, but for some reason, can't bring himself to do so....Then again, I could be wrong.

(Note the clever use of "tall and blonde" and "if you didn't listen very carefully the language they were speaking had the same cadences and tonal qualities.")

Maybe it's like Tom Cruise cross examining Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men.

[Floyd]

Seems to me that Floyd really wants to call Boxcar a racist, but for some reason, can't bring himself to do so....Then again, I could be wrong.

(Note the clever use of "tall and blonde" and "if you didn't listen very carefully the language they were speaking had the same cadences and tonal qualities.")

No need to put words in my mouth, Pace. I'll happily call a spade a spade! I was just relating an experience from my sordid past.
I'm sure when Boxcar's parents were growing up in the seventies they lived in a suburb somewhere surrounded by folks just like them, and he has been similarly blessed. He's just afraid and confused by people who are different, I don't believe he's actively racist.

[boxcar]

Hoo. Clever! "Jesse the Jackass, Al-Not-So-Sharpton!" Ho Ho! I anxiously await the "I know you are, but what am I" retort, closely followed by "I'm Rubber, You're Glue."

Face it. You've got nothing. You're a scared little man cowering in a corner bellowing while the waves of change wash over you.

Nothing? Oh...you're quite wrong, sir. I have a dimwit on the end of my line, who just can't shake himself loose. In fact, you're so confused, in this post you talk about "waves of change" (although, frankly, I expect that to hit our shores after Obama is sworn in on the koran or the bible whatever), while in other posts you have clearly suggested nothing has really changed since you were growing up (a failed attempt at achieving adulthood if there ever was one).

Boxcar

[Floyd]

Nothing? Oh...you're quite wrong, sir. I have a dimwit on the end of my line, who just can't shake himself loose.

Gee, I was thinking the same thing.

[HUSKER55]

Guys and gals, when I went to school we were taught real American history, literature and etc. Hard to recognize those courses today.

The credo used to be, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Divide and conquer, for those of you old enough, do you remember?


Exactly what do you think is happening today?

[boxcar]

Gee, I was thinking the same thing.

Yeah, sure. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

I don't believe he's actively racist.

What does actively racist mean? Is it different than an inactive racist?

[Greyfox]

Let's not lose the original message at the start of this thread.
Diversity divides.
Even today a Russian analyst is predicting that the United States will break up into separate parts.

He states:

Russian analyst predicts decline and breakup of U.S.


19:31|24/ 11/ 2008http://img.rian.ru/i/b_print.gif (http://en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118512713-print.html)



MOSCOW, November 24 (RIA Novosti) - A leading Russian political analyst has said the economic turmoil in the United States has confirmed his long-held view that the country is heading for collapse, and will divide into separate parts. Professor Igor Panarin said in an interview with the respected daily Izvestia published on Monday: "The dollar is not secured by anything. The country's foreign debt has grown like an avalanche, even though in the early 1980s there was no debt. By 1998, when I first made my prediction, it had exceeded $2 trillion. Now it is more than 11 trillion. This is a pyramid that can only collapse."

The paper said Panarin's dire predictions for the U.S. economy, initially made at an international conference in Australia 10 years ago at a time when the economy appeared strong, have been given more credence by this year's events.

When asked when the U.S. economy would collapse, Panarin said: "It is already collapsing. Due to the financial crisis, three of the largest and oldest five banks on Wall Street have already ceased to exist, and two are barely surviving. Their losses are the biggest in history. Now what we will see is a change in the regulatory system on a global financial scale: America will no longer be the world's financial regulator."

When asked who would replace the U.S. in regulating world markets, he said: "Two countries could assume this role: China, with its vast reserves, and Russia, which could play the role of a regulator in Eurasia."

Asked why he expected the U.S. to break up into separate parts, he said: "A whole range of reasons. Firstly, the financial problems in the U.S. will get worse. Millions of citizens there have lost their savings. Prices and unemployment are on the rise. General Motors and Ford are on the verge of collapse, and this means that whole cities will be left without work. Governors are already insistently demanding money from the federal center. Dissatisfaction is growing, and at the moment it is only being held back by the elections and the hope that Obama can work miracles. But by spring, it will be clear that there are no miracles."

He also cited the "vulnerable political setup", "lack of unified national laws", and "divisions among the elite, which have become clear in these crisis conditions."

He predicted that the U.S. will break up into six parts - the Pacific coast, with its growing Chinese population; the South, with its Hispanics; Texas, where independence movements are on the rise; the Atlantic coast, with its distinct and separate mentality; five of the poorer central states with their large Native American populations; and the northern states, where the influence from Canada is strong.

He even suggested that "we could claim Alaska - it was only granted on lease, after all."

On the fate of the U.S. dollar, he said: "In 2006 a secret agreement was reached between Canada, Mexico and the U.S. on a common Amero currency as a new monetary unit. This could signal preparations to replace the dollar. The one-hundred dollar bills that have flooded the world could be simply frozen. Under the pretext, let's say, that terrorists are forging them and they need to be checked."

When asked how Russia should react to his vision of the future, Panarin said: "Develop the ruble as a regional currency. Create a fully functioning oil exchange, trading in rubles... We must break the strings tying us to the financial Titanic, which in my view will soon sink."

Panarin, 60, is a professor at the Diplomatic Academy of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and has authored several books on information warfare.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118512713.html

[dav4463]

How many teachers are out there teaching WWII to young kids in America and making them think that America was wrong and Germany was right and being sympathetic to the Japanese, even admiring the courage of kamikaze pilots who cowardly flew planes into US ships?

We already know that the heroes of the Alamo were bad and the Mexicans were just protecting their homeland.

We know the cavalry and all the men who fought the Indians in the Wild West were bad and the Indians were good.

We know that there wasn't one single decent human who fought for the South during the Civil War. All of them were racist slave-owners.

Already, Americans are sympathetic towards a ruthless killer named Saddam Hussein.

[PaceAdvantage]

Russian analyst predicts decline and breakup of U.S.Have the Russians ever been good at predicting anything?

[JustRalph]

being a racist and a realist (http://www.answers.com/topic/realist) are two very different things

[Tom]

What does actively racist mean? Is it different than an inactive racist?

I didn't know they had a season! :lol:

"Ahhh, springtime......back of the bus!!!!":D

[DanG]

Yeah, I'm sure the world would have been better off if this entire continent were still peopled by believers in human sacrifice. For some reason, I don't think the ways and means of native cultures jive much with the modern progressives' core beliefs. But that doesn't stop modern progressives from extolling the virtues of the Indians at the expense of the evil white Euro devil-men.
Wow... :bang:

True; my father was full blooded Cherokee and I have a dog in this fight; but if you ever want to debate this “statement” in an intelligent and civilized manner…please let me know.

[DanG]

Who knew Thomas Paine hailed from Bensonhurst?

:lol::lol::lol:

Great line!

[DanG]

As for my politics? I consider myself more Progressive than Liberal. I'm against big banks, big business, big government and big labor. "Too big to fail" is just plain too big, and the folks who actually do the work in this country have been getting the shaft ever since the Constitution was signed.

This "Us vs. Them" mentality is being promoted by billionaires pretending to be the "Average Joe" in order to distract us from the fact that the value of our houses have dropped, our retirement savings are gone, we're mired in a mistake of a war in the Middle East, and if we get sick or hurt we'd better hope it's fatal, because the bills will kill us.

Why the distraction? Because they're afraid that if we wake up and see the obscene profits that they've made by promoting fear they'd all lose their seat on the gravy train.

This rant is too long, and not near as funny as you deserve, but I'm tired of all the whining and blame, and I hope that we as a nation realize that the "Them" the billionaire bloviators and piss-pot pundits are trying to make us fear is really just "Us" a couple generations removed.
Thanks for posting that clip Dave; because without it I never would have read this. I know it won’t be a popular stance; but there is so much wisdom in these paragraphs I don’t know where to start!

Thank you. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[OTM Al]

On the fate of the U.S. dollar, he said: "In 2006 a secret agreement was reached between Canada, Mexico and the U.S. on a common Amero currency as a new monetary unit. This could signal preparations to replace the dollar. The one-hundred dollar bills that have flooded the world could be simply frozen. Under the pretext, let's say, that terrorists are forging them and they need to be checked."

Instant loss of any credibility. No such thing as the "Amero"

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/amero.asp

As to the rest of this drivel, there is a long history of Europeans underestimating the US. Just another (very minor) chapter

[Dave Schwartz]

Dan,

Personally, I the the author got those lines right but I disagree with most of his other positions.

The bottom line is that our leaders have been failing us for a long time and they do so by favoring themselves and their "friends." The elected do not represent "us," they represent "them."

(Kind of like horse racing... Track management is concerned only with the health of their close interests - trainers, owners, breeders, jockeys, etc. - the bettor is not even considered in the equation beyond the point of "how to get more of his money." See? Same thing.)

I do not see where the above position is in conflict with the video.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[DanG]

Dan,

Personally, I the the author got those lines right but I disagree with most of his other positions.

The bottom line is that our leaders have been failing us for a long time and they do so by favoring themselves and their "friends." The elected do not represent "us," they represent "them."

(Kind of like horse racing... Track management is concerned only with the health of their close interests - trainers, owners, breeders, jockeys, etc. - the bettor is not even considered in the equation beyond the point of "how to get more of his money." See? Same thing.)

I do not see where the above position is in conflict with the video.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz
Dave in a general sense I agree; there was little conflict with the highlighted paragraph. Where the video became derailed imo; was the divisive nature that really didn’t represent the Thomas Payne I’ve studied.

Having said that; it was a long time ago I read about Payne and your video has really sparked an interest to read more.

I thank you for a very thought provoking thread. :ThmbUp:

[TurfRuler]

Well, if I am, you must admit that I've had some excellent teachers and role models -- the likes of Jesse the Jackass, Al-Not-So-Sharpton, the Rev. Wright, Obama, Ayers, etc.Boxcar

One morning in '79, walking down Alvarado, I saw an old derelict, white man wondering down 7th, his eyes wide proclaiming in English, "Where are the Americans.! Where are the Americans." At the time I wondered what he meant.

If only you would free your mind, whether a woman wears high heels does not make her a 'tute. But travel to the land of boxcar-JustMilosevic the majority of Americans refused to do.

[boxcar]

One morning in '79, walking down Alvarado, I saw an old derelict, white man wondering down 7th, his eyes wide proclaiming in English, "Where are the Americans.! Where are the Americans." At the time I wondered what he meant.

If only you would free your mind, whether a woman wears high heels does not make her a 'tute. But travel to the land of boxcar-JustMilosevic the majority of Americans refused to do.

Geesh...how so very unprofound. No wonder I'm underwhelmed. :rolleyes:

My mind is free. For one thing, it's free to choose to disagree with the worldly, world-loving globalists. And I want to keep it free in a free society that is already being eaten away with the malignant, freedom-killing cancer of political correctness. After all, not all cultures are created equal; for some cultures aren't all that fond of freedom and capitalism.

Boxcar

[ddog]

"The bottom line is that our leaders have been failing us for a long time and they do so by favoring themselves and their "friends." The elected do not represent "us," they represent "them.""



Dave

I really think that a close reading of history on this would tend to lean toward the view that it has always been thus.
The heat gets turned up when the natural differences in economic outcomes become wildly distorted between them(the haves) and us (the nots).

I believe at the heart of the current situation lies that reality.

[Dave Schwartz]

Dog,

You could be right. It might just be that it becomes more obvious in this super-connected world of ours.

It might also explain why governments and even nations are not too long-lived: you can only abuse those you govern for so long before they revolt.



Dave

[Greyfox]

Have the Russians ever been good at predicting anything?

Essentially we agree on that comment in general.
But the Nationality of a specific individual has little to do with his observational credibility.
Personally, I find this "Ruskie's" predictions too dire. The U.S.A. has overcome difficult circumstances defore for sure. However, the $ 9 trillion dollar debt comment leading to possible "collapse" can't be ignored. With Obama at the helm, there is more debt coming.

It's always a mistake to under estimate a credible political analyst's views either dependent or possibly independent of their nationality. Let's not forget who the first man into space was. (Yes. I know many women before him had bodies that were out of this world.);)

[ddog]

Have the Russians ever been good at predicting anything?

Pa, WE(cia,etc) missed the breakup, they knew it was coming long before we did.

How many were predicting this mess a year or two ago?

You seemed to have blind faith in them at the time.
??

Wouldn't be the first time "others" see one more clearly than "one" does.


:)

[TurfRuler]

Well, if I am, you must admit that I've had some excellent teachers and role models -- the likes of Jesse the Jackass, Al-Not-So-Sharpton, the Rev. Wright, Obama, Ayers, etc.

Self-imposed ignorance usually is. Confess and repent of your self-destructive ways before it's too late.Boxcar

I wonder if any of their ancestors were on this ship.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081125/ap_on_sc/sci_slave_ship_found

Marine archaeologists find remains of slave ship.

[boxcar]

I wonder if any of their ancestors were on this ship.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081125/ap_on_sc/sci_slave_ship_found

Marine archaeologists find remains of slave ship.

I have a better question: I wonder if they realize that their ancestors, in all likelihood, also sold their ancestors to the highest bidders!

Boxcar

[HUSKER55]

I wish I could remember where I read this. Originally slaves were defeated solders from a field of battle sold off by the conquering army to pay for expenses.

If memory serves it roots are in Africa and was in europe centuries ago.

[OTM Al]

Hmmm...slavery in the Americas is the fault of black people? Hardly. Slavery in various forms has existed in most every culture in the world throughout human history and yes, even up through today. The easiest source of slaves, as was mentioned, was defeated peoples. Not just the army, but anyone from a city that army was from. Yes, slavery was practiced in Africa and in some places still unfortunately is. We like to call it indentured servitude when we talk about what Europeans did to white people, like that was any different. And yes, some African rulers did sell slaves to the Europeans. Of course Europeans also conducted their own raids as did the peoples of Northern Africa to supply the absolutely massive demand for slaves in the Americas. European demand for slaves caused wars and the taking of slaves in Africa which wouldn't have otherwise occured. It was how these people were treated after being sold that took slavery to a whole new level. Animal transports were cleaner and healthier for their cargo than slavers. From British naval records it was said that a slave ship was so filthy you could actually smell it on the open sea. Slavery was and is an abomination and to try to lay it at the feet of black people is disgusting.

[Tom]

True, but you cannot deny that many helped sell their own as well.
And is was hardly a European thing either.

I think the key to slavery is that no one here today was a slave and on one here today ever owned any.

Move on. It was an atrocity but it is no longer here. Time to look ahead, not back.

[OTM Al]

I wouldn't say they sold their own. Those selling were selling neighboring tribes that they were able to defeat. They considered them no more their own than an Irishman would an Englishman. Africa is and was a very culturally diverse place. People living only a few miles apart could be very different. Saying that there is such a thing as a general African is akin to saying there is a general European

[OTM Al]

I think the key to slavery is that no one here today was a slave and on one here today ever owned any.


Don't be so sure about that. Human trafficking is alive and well in the US and fuels the sex trade industry and also many menial jobs, such as in the garment industry.

[boxcar]

I wouldn't say they sold their own. Those selling were selling neighboring tribes that they were able to defeat. They considered them no more their own than an Irishman would an Englishman.

Nice spin you put on this, OTM. You justify blacks selling blacks to other human beings by claiming that the sellers really didn't think they were selling their own!? So, this kind of self-deception on the part of the sellers made it right? This kind of self-deception somehow put the sellers above it all? This lame excuse you make for them, I find disgusting!


Africa is and was a very culturally diverse place. People living only a few miles apart could be very different. Saying that there is such a thing as a general African is akin to saying there is a general European

Well, try spinning that nonsense with various Afro-Americans who hail from different parts of Africa! Try telling them that they're a little less African than some else who is from a different part of the continent. :rolleyes:

And what the heck does "culture" have to do with this? Culture doesn't determine the color of a person's skin!

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

I'm still a slave, like many others. I've worked every day of my adult life for the bank.

[HUSKER55]

Yes Greyfox, and the first of the month he reminds me and makes sure I know my place. :D

[Marshall Bennett]

We're all slaves to a higher order making decisions that effect our daily lives . Whether its our courts , government , or whatever . Lately , I've been a slave to my insurance company . Following the hurricane , I've had to do much of the rebuilding myself at my own expense , probably for the benifit of someone else , because I'm hauling ass before the next one hits . :mad:

[OTM Al]

Nice spin you put on this, OTM. You justify blacks selling blacks to other human beings by claiming that the sellers really didn't think they were selling their own!? So, this kind of self-deception on the part of the sellers made it right? This kind of self-deception somehow put the sellers above it all? This lame excuse you make for them, I find disgusting!




Well, try spinning that nonsense with various Afro-Americans who hail from different parts of Africa! Try telling them that they're a little less African than some else who is from a different part of the continent. :rolleyes:

And what the heck does "culture" have to do with this? Culture doesn't determine the color of a person's skin!

Boxcar

The problem with your logic here is that you assume all black people are the same. Of course different tribes didn't feel like they were selling their own any more than the Romans thought they were selling their own when they were selling off Greek slaves. Or if you want a biblical example, do you think the Egytians thought of the Jews as their own?

And how do you get that I am justifying it in any way? Miss the part where I said slavery in any form is an abomination? I am mearly countering the point that you made that I find quite disgusting that you were laying the African slave trade at the feet of black people. Without European demand for the New World plantations do you honestly believe that the volume would have been anywhere near the size it was? And once sold to the white men, were these people treated any better than animals? Please. Certainly there were some blacks complicit in what happened. There were also a few Jews that were complicit in the Holocaust. You want to lay that one at their feet as well?

I'm sorry but the "blacks sold their own into slavery" line is a hard core racist philosophy, so if you want to go that way, be aware of who you are keeping company with.

[Tom]

I'm still a slave, like many others. I've worked every day of my adult life for the bank. And now you own it.
:lol:

[Tom]

I'm sorry but the "blacks sold their own into slavery" line is a hard core racist philosophy, so if you want to go that way, be aware of who you are keeping company with.

No, it is the truth, Not all of it, but part of it. Your half-baked rationalization of "not all Africans are the same notwithstanding, it is appalling that ANYONE had a hand in it. Slavery is the lowest a human can sink - one can do no worse than enslave his fellow man. But I think it makes more sense to assign some of the blame to those who rally did it than try to assign it to people not even born yet, which is exactly what many today are trying to do. I never owned a man, never would, and I have absolutely no guilt about slavery because I had no hand in it. Time to move on. Slavery is not an excuse for anything.

[GaryG]

Time to move on. Slavery is not an excuse for anything.It is certainly not, but the excuse will be continue to be used long after all of us are gone. It is easier than trying to do something constructive.

[OTM Al]

I'm not disputing there is truth there, but as you put it, it's only part of the picture. I have no idea how you are getting some rationalization out of this. I am saying they didn't consider it as selling their own, because they weren't. You want a modern example look at Rwanda. Pretty small place. 2 very different peoples. Don't like each other much at all do they? There is no moral judgement made there. That is a statement of fact. If you need a moral judgement I refer you back to the repeated use of the word abomination that I have been employing as it fits quite nicely. The point I am making is that a comment like this one

"I wonder if they realize that their ancestors, in all likelihood, also sold their ancestors to the highest bidders!"

Is a standard comeback used by hard core racists when the topic of slavery is broached. This is also a fact. It is placing blame on blacks that were slaves for their condition. Just to be clear, I am not accusing boxcar of racism here. I am simply pointing out that if he wants to say such a thing, he should be aware of the company he is keeping.

[boxcar]

The problem with your logic here is that you assume all black people are the same. Of course different tribes didn't feel like they were selling their own any more than the Romans thought they were selling their own when they were selling off Greek slaves. Or if you want a biblical example, do you think the Egytians thought of the Jews as their own?

And how do you get that I am justifying it in any way? Miss the part where I said slavery in any form is an abomination? I am mearly countering the point that you made that I find quite disgusting that you were laying the African slave trade at the feet of black people. Without European demand for the New World plantations do you honestly believe that the volume would have been anywhere near the size it was? And once sold to the white men, were these people treated any better than animals? Please. Certainly there were some blacks complicit in what happened. There were also a few Jews that were complicit in the Holocaust. You want to lay that one at their feet as well?

I'm sorry but the "blacks sold their own into slavery" line is a hard core racist philosophy, so if you want to go that way, be aware of who you are keeping company with.

But of course, Al, it's perfectly fine to take the "hard core racist philosophy" and lay it all at the feet of those evil Europeans?

Now...a couple of things: You took my initial remarks and extrapolated from them that I was laying the African slave trade at the feet of African people, which I did no such thing. I made that kind of observation to show how loathe many black people and guilt-ridden whites are to broach this aspect of the slave trade at all! (Thanks to you, you proved my point!) I made the comment to show that it takes two to tango. Regardless of the demand White slave traders were creating, the irrefutable fact remains is that they had very willing accomplices -- their black counterparts who were eager to sell. And this brings me to the next point.

The major reason various Black tribal chieftains engaged in the slave trade was one of practicality. Africa has always been a continent in turmoil. There probably never been a time when some tribe wasn't warring with some other. Bloodshed has been a perennial fact of life on that continent. Therefore, victorious tribal chieftains were happy to sell their enemies to the White slave traders. They not only gained additional spoils of war through the trade deals, but dispatched with their enemies permanently -- never having to fear they they would ever have to face them again in battle. In essence, the victors neatly killed two birds with one stone!

Certainly, it's reasonable to believe that the white slave traders' demand for slaves contributed greatly to perpetuating that trade until their nation's laws prohibited it any longer. But nonetheless, this in no way diminishes the role Blacks played in selling other Blacks. The Black people are just as culpable as the Whites because the trade fed their lust for gain (spoils) while at the same time efficiently dispensing with their conquered enemies.

Boxcar

[OTM Al]

Again, you need to distinguish. You are taking black people as a whole again. The stronger people tribes, nations, clans, or whatever you would prefer to call them, of Africa were not the slaves, they were the sellers. Therefore it is those who remained in Africa that blame should be laid on, not those that were shipped over here. This would be truthful, but to say blacks in general, and specifically when talking about those in America were to blame is as I said directly akin to laying blame on the Jews for the Holocaust.

There is the truth and there is how it is used and distorted. As I said, you were not being accused of anything, but it is a fact that that is a standard arguement for racists. That's all I was saying about it. You have made an arguement that is very common to some very bad people.

And I hardly see how I was loathe to broach the subject. Went into it head on I think, so I don't think I proved any point you thought you were making though frankly if you were making a point, you weren't too clear. You were mocking a couple black Americans in a way that was solely based on their race. I don't care for either of them either, but I find the way you attaked them both entirely distasteful and as I've attempted to demonstrate, very likely untrue.

[Tom]

I am saying they didn't consider it as selling their own, because they weren't.


Yes, just like the Europeans thought. What's the diff?

[OTM Al]

This is the trouble with trying to respond to more than one person at once.

Read through my points again slowly. Understand that I am saying

1) Whoever was involved was wrong
2) The ancestors of US blacks were the sellees, not the sellers. Tribes did not sell their own, they sold those they conquered.
3) People from different parts of Africa are not the same despite the fact that they all have dark skin. Thus, those that sold were ethnically/culturally different than those that were sold.
4) Therefore ths statement that the ancestors of blacks in this country bear some responsibilty for their slavery is incorrect. If you want to lay blame on any blacks for this, it would be the ancestors of those still in Africa.
5) Conclusion: boxcar's statement is garbage of the type frequently used by extreme racists. No judgement on boxcar was made.

No comments on Europeans are made beyond the fact that they treated the people they bought like crap and they encouraged slave taking, which I believe is not in dispute. No levels of blame are being laid because, as you correctly pointed out, they were all wrong.

[boxcar]

This is the trouble with trying to respond to more than one person at once.

Read through my points again slowly. Understand that I am saying

1) Whoever was involved was wrong
2) The ancestors of US blacks were the sellees, not the sellers. Tribes did not sell their own, they sold those they conquered.

Again, a moot point. Blacks sold Blacks on the continent of Africa. An irrefutable fact. And what in the world do you mean by you second point? What in the world is a "selle". I thought that was a saddle.

]3) People from different parts of Africa are not the same despite the fact that they all have dark skin. Thus, those that sold were ethnically/culturally different than those that were sold.

Yeah, but whackjobs like Sharpton and Jackson believe that virtually all Blacks are their "brothers and sisters" just on the virtue of color. And it is on this basis of that and another important little fact I mde my "ancestors" statement. Furthermore, if you're going to use this "ethnic/cultural" argument, then no Black man in this country can claim that his ancestors were slaves unless he can prove that someone in his family tree was actually one.

4) Therefore ths statement that the ancestors of blacks in this country bear some responsibilty for their slavery is incorrect.

And your statement is patently false; for all mankind descends from Adam. All Blacks, therefore, probably descend from the ancient Cush people mentioned in the bible. So you can harp on culture and ethnicity all you want, but at the end of the day, we're really talking race.

5) Conclusion: boxcar's statement is garbage of the type frequently used by extreme racists. No judgement on boxcar was made.

Your objections to my statement have no basis in reality. All Blacks have a common lineage -- just as all Whites do -- as do all men.

Boxcar