michael gill

[lamboguy]

he is back now as big as he ever has been. the man is now using 4 or five trainers on the grounds at penn national, i see him in philadelphia, and i knwo he always has loved maryland racing.

i have always called for a change in the purse distribution structure. michael gill is taking care of that all by himself. he is running 2 horses every race at all these tracks, most of them are competitive. if you are a trainer that has only a few horses and are trying to make a score off them, you better forget it, mike gill will claim it off you. he is helping make horseracing competitive once again at lower level racing. the only problem i can for see him having is that since he is not afraid to pull the trigger at the claim box, he might wind up with all the horses that fit the condition's. he will have races with nothing but all his own horses in it!

it looks like he took 2 years off to regroup and come up with a new plan for his racing empire. i hope he steps up to the plate at the sales, he brings great action there!! mike gill need to spend some of that money he made during the housing boom with his morgage business. kinda like giving something back to the poor people.

[Alyblakester]

I wonder if Gill showed a huge profit playing the claiming game the way he did or does again......I would say so if he's up to his old tricks. :)

[lamboguy]

he don't make no money at this game. i am buying horses to run just so he claims them from me. he did it before a few years ago. the man just broke the record for a claim at penn national. he coughed up $50,000 for a horse that was trained by scott lake. that horse ain't worth $10,000, he got a lucky 3rd with the horse last night in a 2x optional allowance race.

this game needs about 300 more michael gill's in it.

i love the guy

[onefast99]

he don't make no money at this game. i am buying horses to run just so he claims them from me. he did it before a few years ago. the man just broke the record for a claim at penn national. he coughed up $50,000 for a horse that was trained by scott lake. that horse ain't worth $10,000, he got a lucky 3rd with the horse last night in a 2x optional allowance race.

this game needs about 300 more michael gill's in it.

i love the guy
Buying from Scott Lake? Wow, he sure will make a huge profit doing that. He is getting back into the game at a good time, there are a lot of smaller outfits looking to get out and as you can see the claims are down considerably from a year ago at most tracks. I know Gill had success with Schuman does he still use him?

[lamboguy]

as far as i can see he no longer uses shuman or his favorite guy gammy vasquez,, for that matter no carlos figueroa either. he is using taglianetti, hooper, marcus vitali, and murray rojas at penn national. i am sure he is looking for others as we speak.

i wish michael gill all the sucess in the horse business! in the mean time i will be buying horses to run in penn national so he can claim them as many as he wishes.

[onefast99]

He passed on Devine Master at the Meadowlands Murray got him for another owner.

[CryingForTheHorses]

This guy is a RS's dream come true,Claims them runs them back giving you a chance to claim them back. This is my kind of guy,I love to run and I love to claim...The man is good for the game...Welcome back M Gill

[onefast99]

[QUOTE=McSchell_Racing]This guy is a RS's dream come true,Claims them runs them back giving you a chance to claim them back. This is my kind of guy,I love to run and I love to claim...The man is good for the game...Welcome back M Gill[/QUOTE
I think both owners have enough cash to get them into the next century. Yes it is good for the game, just remember its the "claiming" game one of the toughest to be successful at. Look at Paul Pompa he is very successful at it, he is one of the few!

[onefast99]

this game needs about 300 more michael gill's in it.

i love the guy[/QUOTE]
I see he had a few issues with the New Hampshire and Mass. banking departments in regards to the Mortgage Specialists a company he owns in these states. www.paulickreport.com/blog/tag/mike-gill/ (http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/tag/mike-gill/) he had a big claiming year. At Philly park 30+ in September alone thus far. Good time to get back in if you have the money!

[Mineshaft]

he don't make no money at this game. i am buying horses to run just so he claims them from me. he did it before a few years ago. the man just broke the record for a claim at penn national. he coughed up $50,000 for a horse that was trained by scott lake. that horse ain't worth $10,000, he got a lucky 3rd with the horse last night in a 2x optional allowance race.

this game needs about 300 more michael gill's in it.

i love the guy





Are there any horses at Penn worth 20K much less 50K? I mean come on Gill i love the way you claim, jam em up there, and win 2-3 in a row but come on dude you got more sense that that. Claiming a 50K horse at Penn man are you on crack Gill? WTF???

[onefast99]

Are there any horses at Penn worth 20K much less 50K? I mean come on Gill i love the way you claim, jam em up there, and win 2-3 in a row but come on dude you got more sense that that. Claiming a 50K horse at Penn man are you on crack Gill? WTF???
He must of seen something he liked in this one maybe a few conditions left or a stakes at another track, you never know in the claiming game what people are thinking sometimes.

[lamboguy]

nice try onefast. this guy just loves to claim horses, he thinks he can make people cry!!


i tried to selll him horses, he don't want to buy them, he winds up claiming for more money.

[onefast99]

nice try onefast. this guy just loves to claim horses, he thinks he can make people cry!!


i tried to selll him horses, he don't want to buy them, he winds up claiming for more money.
By having a few trainers he is able to get information on certain horses in regards to their fitness. I find the one interesting thing in the claiming game is to stay away from Pletchers huge drop downs. Getting all the information on a horse you are looking to claim can make a huge difference if you get a decent one or someone elses problem. One of my past trainers always said you dont want to own the horse when he runs his last race.

[Nacumi]

Loan firm charged with fraud settles in NH, Mass.

The Mortgage Specialists will pay $725,000 in fines after being charged with law violations

By ASHLEY SMITH, Staff Writer

(asmith@nashuatelegraph.com)

A tri-state mortgage company with an office in Nashua has agreed to pay more than $700,000 to settle allegations of fraud in two states.

In separate settlements, The Mortgage Specialists, with one of its eight offices at 327 Amherst St., has agreed to pay fines of $425,000 for violations in New Hampshire and $300,000 for those in Massachusetts.

New Hampshire banking officials accused the company last month of forging signatures, destroying documents and breaking at least six other industry laws. Massachusetts quickly followed with allegations of falsifying income information and altering loan documents.

The rest:

http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/trial-procedure-fines-penalties/11602699-1.html

[JustRalph]

check out Gill's runner in the 4th at Aqu today (Friday Nov 28th) wins at 11-1

This horse has gone from winning 25k claimer at Del where claimed by Gill.

for Doug O'Neill

Takes 6 weeks off and comes back to win on Nov 8th by 12L improving 15 points in Beyer number in a 32nw3L at Del

Today he comes back today in a Alw50000s and wins in a head bob......... at 11-1...........

Anybody care to explain this one to me? I didn't play the race, but I wanna know how Gill and his trainer gets 15pts worth of Beyer out of a horse like this.......when Doug O'Neill couldn't............

Am I being Naive here?

[lamboguy]

mike gill does a myectomi to every horse he gets. soemtimes they work, often they don't. it worked on this one

[JustRalph]

sorry, correction........those aren't Beyer speed pts

but Bris speed rating points

[jotb]

[QUOTE=JustRalph]check out Gill's runner in the 4th at Aqu today (Friday Nov 28th) wins at 11-1

This horse has gone from winning 25k claimer at Del where claimed by Gill.

for Doug O'Neill

Takes 6 weeks off and comes back to win on Nov 8th by 12L improving 15 points in Beyer number in a 32nw3L at Del

Today he comes back today in a Alw50000s and wins in a head bob......... at 11-1...........

Anybody care to explain this one to me? I didn't play the race, but I wanna know how Gill and his trainer gets 15pts worth of Beyer out of a horse like this.......when Doug O'Neill couldn't............


Where do you get ALW50000S? This race was a SA430001X. The 50k is only in the race condition (which have started for 50k or less). It was not a strong bunch at all. I believe it was a 9 horse field and 5 of the horses were nothing but maiden winners. That left 3 other contenders in the race. The filly that finished 2nd had won 4 races lifetime and 3 of those wins were last year. The lone win this year was back in July and that was at FL against NY BREDS. All her wins came against NY Breds.

The third place horse Discovery Launch had 3 wins lifetime. She broke her maiden at Calder for 12.5K (I believe that's bottom there). Her 2nd win came on the turf. Her last win was a 25KNW3L.

The 4th place horse won 3 races lifetime. She broke her maiden against NY Breds for 35k. Her second win came on the turf. Her third win was an ALW race but it was against NY BREDS. The race was originally to be run on the turf. Due to the weather race was switched to the dirt. It was a 7 horse field and all but 1 horse never won on the dirt before.

Shy Baby the winner of the race on Friday was just a classier horse.

Joe

[Mineshaft]

[QUOTE=JustRalph]check out Gill's runner in the 4th at Aqu today (Friday Nov 28th) wins at 11-1

This horse has gone from winning 25k claimer at Del where claimed by Gill.

for Doug O'Neill

Takes 6 weeks off and comes back to win on Nov 8th by 12L improving 15 points in Beyer number in a 32nw3L at Del

Today he comes back today in a Alw50000s and wins in a head bob......... at 11-1...........

Anybody care to explain this one to me? I didn't play the race, but I wanna know how Gill and his trainer gets 15pts worth of Beyer out of a horse like this.......when Doug O'Neill couldn't............


Where do you get ALW50000S? This race was a SA430001X. The 50k is only in the race condition (which have started for 50k or less). It was not a strong bunch at all. I believe it was a 9 horse field and 5 of the horses were nothing but maiden winners. That left 3 other contenders in the race. The filly that finished 2nd had won 4 races lifetime and 3 of those wins were last year. The lone win this year was back in July and that was at FL against NY BREDS. All her wins came against NY Breds.

The third place horse Discovery Launch had 3 wins lifetime. She broke her maiden at Calder for 12.5K (I believe that's bottom there). Her 2nd win came on the turf. Her last win was a 25KNW3L.

The 4th place horse won 3 races lifetime. She broke her maiden against NY Breds for 35k. Her second win came on the turf. Her third win was an ALW race but it was against NY BREDS. The race was originally to be run on the turf. Due to the weather race was switched to the dirt. It was a 7 horse field and all but 1 horse never won on the dirt before.

Shy Baby the winner of the race on Friday was just a classier horse.

Joe




I agree that field was a weak bunch of rats. She was the best horse in the race. I didnt bet the race but told myself if i had to bet i would of bet her

[Grits]

Gill couldn't buy a dime's worth of integrity in this sport if he ran horses for the next fifty years.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE0D61E3BF935A25757C0A9659C8B 63

Tigers stripes don't change, not even five years out. His business dealings in New Hampshire and Massachusetts; a significant indicator of such.

Yep, horseracing really needs 300 Gills.

[onefast99]

Gill couldn't buy a dime's worth of integrity in this sport if he ran horses for the next fifty years.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE0D61E3BF935A25757C0A9659C8B 63

Tigers stripes don't change, not even five years out. His business dealings in New Hampshire and Massachusetts; a significant indicator of such.

Yep, horseracing really needs 300 Gills.
By no means am I sticking up for him here, but the mortgage stuff was pretty much all compliance. He also runs a pretty big company and the fact that the state of Mass. is on a witch hunt to go after anyone who had anything to do with subprime mtg's isnt necessarily Gills fault.

[onefast99]

I was at Philly Park the past 2 days and every other race Gill has a horse, they seem to bet him pretty hard. I see he has Hooper and Vitali as his trainers lots of interesting claims by him recently.

[lamboguy]

mike gill is starting to win races at a higher percentage. he now has MIKE CATALANO as head trainer on his farm in pennsylvania. john pamierini enters all his horses.
the trainers in the racetracks don't get full rates and when the horses win they get less than 10% of the purse. i heard 5%.

when it all boils down to it, his training cost are less than $35 per day, he has been averaging 7 wins per day in total racing in charlestown, laurel, philadelphia and penn national. he has to be taking in about $75,000 a day in purse money. that goes a long way in training horses even if he has over 100 of them, which it looks like he has.

the man has found a way to make money in the cheap claiming game, and big money at that.

he is going to be a force to be reckoned with down the road. he is doing what no one else has figured how to do, make money on a consistant basis in the horse racing business. he only hopes that the slot money stays strong, and they put out race programs on a regular basis. the more the merry to him. he is on the verge of wiping out every small outfit that is racing at the tracks where he competes.

[the little guy]

mike gill is starting to win races at a higher percentage. he now has MIKE CATALANO as head trainer on his farm in pennsylvania. john pamierini enters all his horses.
the trainers in the racetracks don't get full rates and when the horses win they get less than 10% of the purse. i heard 5%.

when it all boils down to it, his training cost are less than $35 per day, he has been averaging 7 wins per day in total racing in charlestown, laurel, philadelphia and penn national. he has to be taking in about $75,000 a day in purse money. that goes a long way in training horses even if he has over 100 of them, which it looks like he has.

the man has found a way to make money in the cheap claiming game, and big money at that.

he is going to be a force to be reckoned with down the road. he is doing what no one else has figured how to do, make money on a consistant basis in the horse racing business. he only hopes that the slot money stays strong, and they put out race programs on a regular basis. the more the merry to him. he is on the verge of wiping out every small outfit that is racing at the tracks where he competes.


You don't mind if I don't take all of this at face value...do you?

You would help your case a little if you listed his 70 winners in 2009....77 if you post after today's racing is finished.

[lamboguy]

i just saw he had a few big days in a row. whether he maintains that pace throughout the year is another story. he probably would have won 7 races each day, but most days this year his tracks have been closed. you can probably figure him to win an average of 2 races per day at all the tracks he runs at when they are open. its not that hard to do when you enter 15 horses on a racing program, and most of them are in for less than what they could possibly win for.

[the little guy]

i just saw he had a few big days in a row. whether he maintains that pace throughout the year is another story. he probably would have won 7 races each day, but most days this year his tracks have been closed. you can probably figure him to win an average of 2 races per day at all the tracks he runs at when they are open. its not that hard to do when you enter 15 horses on a racing program, and most of them are in for less than what they could possibly win for.


You make a few too many suppositions for my taste in a game of chance. I understand that he does well buying horses for $20K and running them for $5K, I'm just not sure that is a recipe for success, no matter how poorly you pay your staff and how many races you win a day.

Has he been a profitable owner in the past?

[lamboguy]

he claims he made a million 6 years ago for one year only. i would have thought he got burried at it. he claimed he payed taxes on it. today with slot machines and his farm in pennsylvania it will be close to impossible for this guy not to make big money at this game.

keep in mind he is not chasing big races right now, the majority of his horses run for less than $10k

[the little guy]

he claims he made a million 6 years ago for one year only. i would have thought he got burried at it. he claimed he payed taxes on it. today with slot machines and his farm in pennsylvania it will be close to impossible for this guy not to make big money at this game.

keep in mind he is not chasing big races right now, the majority of his horses run for less than $10k


I hope he did....but one of the the things I've learned over the years from hanging around the racetrack is that people don't always tell the truth.

[jotb]

mike gill is starting to win races at a higher percentage. he now has MIKE CATALANO as head trainer on his farm in pennsylvania. john pamierini enters all his horses.
the trainers in the racetracks don't get full rates and when the horses win they get less than 10% of the purse. i heard 5%.

when it all boils down to it, his training cost are less than $35 per day, he has been averaging 7 wins per day in total racing in charlestown, laurel, philadelphia and penn national. he has to be taking in about $75,000 a day in purse money. that goes a long way in training horses even if he has over 100 of them, which it looks like he has.

the man has found a way to make money in the cheap claiming game, and big money at that.

he is going to be a force to be reckoned with down the road. he is doing what no one else has figured how to do, make money on a consistant basis in the horse racing business. he only hopes that the slot money stays strong, and they put out race programs on a regular basis. the more the merry to him. he is on the verge of wiping out every small outfit that is racing at the tracks where he competes.

It makes me wonder why Mike Gill would have some of his horses with Mike Catalano. Catalano broke down 5 horses from 9-2-08 to 11-2-08. Proud Capote and Royal Dynamite broke down on 9-2-08 (same day). The other 3 were Pete's Five, Lady Valencia and Mr. Rachin. The Delaware meet ended the 2nd week in Nov. and Catalano started claiming horses by the 3rd week at Pha Park for Mike Gill. Catalano has claimed 45 horses for Gill within this time.

What's the story with James Taglianetti? Has not run a horse for Gill since Dec 4th 2008. Taglianetti broke down 4 horses for Gill since July. Mighty Beau claimed for 25k in May for Gill was pulled up on Nov 29th at Penn in a 4k race. Say goodbye to Zim And Torre a 7yo G that earned 150k in his career. Stormin J.P broke down in a 7.5k in July. Catlike Move a 10yo Gelding that earned over 350k broke down in a 4k race at Suf in July 2008 the same day Stormin J.P went down.

Marcus Vitali has won 5 in a row for Gill at Penn. Vitali is winning at 50% so far in 2009. This was a trainer that only win 5% of his races in 1999 and 2000. Tim Hooper has won 10 races already for Gill this year but he's only winning at a 34% clip.

Joe

[lamboguy]

taglianetti is gone. catalano is the boss, he is good in my opinion, but not that good. john pamierini, tammy's husband, is ok. i got no clue how he is doing it.

he runs them in the right spots though. these other guys are just names with him, they only get a weeks pay and not the full 10%.

my guess is he won't last forever. even the best of them have gone down before him, like laz bararia, and frank the mustard man paccero.

[the little guy]

my guess is he won't last forever. even the best of them have gone down before him, like laz bararia, and frank the mustard man paccero.


Much like Wayne Lukas, I think Laz Barrera also deserves to have his name spelled correctly. He also deserves to be put in better company than another person who's name you also misspelled.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I hope he did....but one of the the things I've learned over the years from hanging around the racetrack is that people don't always tell the truth.


You need to practice what you preach!!Im a little off topic but you need to be straightened out on a few things,First of all the slander you are putting on Frank Passero is uncalled for..I can research several posts on here and show you what you have said.Frank was never convicted of anything and when he won 14 in a row at GP,His horses had every test that they had at the time,I can also tell you that the majority of the horse in that streak came with us from Canada.Look it up Frank never had a drug conviction on any of these horses.Because of a stupid thing a grrom done in the holding barn has blown this streak and the man who done it to crazy accusations.I do wish you would do the research to prove me wrong..Please stop because this is a dear man who deserves credit for this feat.
.

[the little guy]

It's always a great pleasure to hear from you Tom. All the best at Gulfstream.

[lamboguy]

i can't spell. i remember the streak well, earlie fires and roger dangean riding some of the horses if i remember right. he was money in the bank, just like jimmy croll was and ben perkins senior.

i don't have a clue how he got his horses to win, i was backside and everyone called him the mustard man and he laughed.

mr mcsnell, i am sure you are real good. i hope you win every race you enter your horses in.

i know what its like to lose, i was just on an 0 for 12 streak. i couldn't buy a win. i lost every which way possible with dq's and and drawing the outside when the inside was lightening. i wound up with 8 seconds and 2 thirds so its not like my horses weren't spotted right, just plain bad luck.

[tmh]

iamboguy you seem to know an awful lot about the gill situation. do you know hooper was the first hire by gill this time around? also he has the most horses for gill? how about he has won over 50 for gill at 21% and over 900,000 in earnings maybe this is the number 1 guy. how many breakdowns does this guy have? maybe he deserves more credit than he is getting. this guy did learn from lake maybe he knows what he is doing. dont think he is just a name maybe a name more people should know.

[onefast99]

iamboguy you seem to know an awful lot about the gill situation. do you know hooper was the first hire by gill this time around? also he has the most horses for gill? how about he has won over 50 for gill at 21% and over 900,000 in earnings maybe this is the number 1 guy. how many breakdowns does this guy have? maybe he deserves more credit than he is getting. this guy did learn from lake maybe he knows what he is doing. dont think he is just a name maybe a name more people should know.
"this guy did learn from lake" I hope he did...

[lamboguy]

as far as i know hooper was with gill on the first get go. i didn't see him in sulfolk this year. i only saw marcus and taglianetti.

i know absolutely nothing about mr. gill's horse arrangements. i do know that abby fuller's husband mike catalano trains on the pennsylvania farm. he ships his horses back and forth from farm to track. i think all of mr. gill's trainers are doing well these days. seems to me like mr. gill is on a mission this year. i think he wants more wins than everyone else combined or something like that!!!!

i am not trying to be derrogetory about mr. gill either. a matter of fact i think he is doing a good job making money at the game. i haven't seen any statistics of his breakdowns either. one thing i know is he will have more than anyone else because he has more horses running than anyone else.

[Shemp Howard]

Two winners for Gill today at the Pha.

He's the best thing that has ever happened to Penn National. Here's hoping he puts all of those gypsy outfits out of business for good.

[lamboguy]

for the record today, gill had a bad day, he only had 6 horses that ran. he had 2 wins and a second for a total of $39,000 for the day.

he needs all his tracks open to get the 7 and 8 win days. today he was out of luck, he just had philadelphia. i suspect as the year goes on he will find new tracks to run at so he can get his win total's up.

[jfb]

mike gill does a myectomi to every horse he gets. soemtimes they work, often they don't. it worked on this one

So he assumes that every horse he gets has a wind problem. I found an article in the thouroughbred times that says forty percent of horses that perform poorly despite exhibiting no obvious physical problems have undiagnosed upper airway obstruction.

I wonder what percent this subset is of the general population of race horses.

The article explains what the surgical procedures are and what they are trying to remedy:
Dorsal displacement of the soft palate, or a flipped palate, occurs in certain horses that break this seal and begin breathing through the mouth and the nose at the same time, typically during peak exertion. The soft palate begins to flap, just as it does in humans who snore, and the flapping of this loose, soft tissue causes severe airway obstruction. The jockey will hear a gurgling or choking noise, and the horse will stop running until it swallows, which allows the soft palate to return to its proper position.

Three types of traditional surgery--myectomy, tenectomy, and staphylectomy-- routinely are performed on horses to stop them from flipping their palate

"A myectomy is a cutting of the two [strap] muscles to change the position of the larynx in the airway," Holcombe said. "Exactly what it does for horses with soft-palate displacement isn't known. The theory is that it prevents a backward traction on the larynx that might effectively be pulling the epiglottis off the soft palate. By transecting those muscles, that tension is released. It's a surgery that really doesn't have a proven efficacy; it doesn't have a known effect, although some people do feel it helps horses that have this problem.

"A myectomy doesn't seem to have any adverse side effects at rest, but there have been some experiments that show that transecting these muscles in normal horses actually was detrimental to their upper airway tract.





http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2004/July/17/Veterinary-Spotlight-Clear-the-air.aspx

[lamboguy]

naturally it doesn't work all the time. any time you are dealing with anything to do with the throat or breathing you are always up against it. the worst problems i have seen in throats are granuloma's. that's where a big non-cancerous blockage forms in ball shaped form. it can be treated with lazer surgery. but if you don't get it all it comes right back.

[jotb]

So he assumes that every horse he gets has a wind problem. I found an article in the thouroughbred times that says forty percent of horses that perform poorly despite exhibiting no obvious physical problems have undiagnosed upper airway obstruction.

I wonder what percent this subset is of the general population of race horses.

The article explains what the surgical procedures are and what they are trying to remedy:
Dorsal displacement of the soft palate, or a flipped palate, occurs in certain horses that break this seal and begin breathing through the mouth and the nose at the same time, typically during peak exertion. The soft palate begins to flap, just as it does in humans who snore, and the flapping of this loose, soft tissue causes severe airway obstruction. The jockey will hear a gurgling or choking noise, and the horse will stop running until it swallows, which allows the soft palate to return to its proper position.

Three types of traditional surgery--myectomy, tenectomy, and staphylectomy-- routinely are performed on horses to stop them from flipping their palate

"A myectomy is a cutting of the two [strap] muscles to change the position of the larynx in the airway," Holcombe said. "Exactly what it does for horses with soft-palate displacement isn't known. The theory is that it prevents a backward traction on the larynx that might effectively be pulling the epiglottis off the soft palate. By transecting those muscles, that tension is released. It's a surgery that really doesn't have a proven efficacy; it doesn't have a known effect, although some people do feel it helps horses that have this problem.

"A myectomy doesn't seem to have any adverse side effects at rest, but there have been some experiments that show that transecting these muscles in normal horses actually was detrimental to their upper airway tract.





http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2004/July/17/Veterinary-Spotlight-Clear-the-air.aspx

Here's the results from 50 horses that had a myectomy.

3. Results
In this group there were 27 colts or geldings, 23
fillies or mares, 28 2-year olds, and 22 3-year olds
and up. Of these 50 horses, 47 (94%) returned to
racing and three (6%) did not. The mean time from
surgery to the first start was 83 days; the median
was 59 days (range 19–338). There was a mean
number of starts presurgery of four and a median of
two (range 0–22). There was a mean number of
starts postsurgery of 12 and a median of nine (range
0–57). There were 21 horses (42%) that went up in
class postsurgery, 21 (42%) that raced in the same
class, and eight (16%) that went down in class.
Thirty-five horses (70%) had increased earnings per
start postsurgery, ten horses (20%) had decreased
earnings per start postsurgery, and five horses (10%)
had no earnings before or after surgery

Joe

[Grits]

Let us all roll out the welcome mat.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/101031.html

[Mineshaft]

He wants to break the owners record. Whats wrong with that?

[lamboguy]

not that great a day for mr. gill today.

in philly he went 0/2

in penn national he had 3 horses in winning with only 2 of them

he only took in $13,000 in purses for the day

[Mineshaft]

I dont think he cares about making money he cares about the record just my opinion.


he has a plan and you cant fault him for that..

[lamboguy]

i think michael gill knows that anyone that has money can buy a record. he wants to prove that he is smarter than anyone else and make money while breaking the record. this guy can win over 600 races this year if he spreads out to more tracks.

in his last go, he got nothing but negative press in the horse business, he is the type of guy that just wants to prove everyone wrong!!

[supercap]

So he assumes that every horse he gets has a wind problem. I found an article in the thouroughbred times that says forty percent of horses that perform poorly despite exhibiting no obvious physical problems have undiagnosed upper airway obstruction.

I wonder what percent this subset is of the general population of race horses.

The article explains what the surgical procedures are and what they are trying to remedy:
Dorsal displacement of the soft palate, or a flipped palate, occurs in certain horses that break this seal and begin breathing through the mouth and the nose at the same time, typically during peak exertion. The soft palate begins to flap, just as it does in humans who snore, and the flapping of this loose, soft tissue causes severe airway obstruction. The jockey will hear a gurgling or choking noise, and the horse will stop running until it swallows, which allows the soft palate to return to its proper position.

Three types of traditional surgery--myectomy, tenectomy, and staphylectomy-- routinely are performed on horses to stop them from flipping their palate

"A myectomy is a cutting of the two [strap] muscles to change the position of the larynx in the airway," Holcombe said. "Exactly what it does for horses with soft-palate displacement isn't known. The theory is that it prevents a backward traction on the larynx that might effectively be pulling the epiglottis off the soft palate. By transecting those muscles, that tension is released. It's a surgery that really doesn't have a proven efficacy; it doesn't have a known effect, although some people do feel it helps horses that have this problem.

"A myectomy doesn't seem to have any adverse side effects at rest, but there have been some experiments that show that transecting these muscles in normal horses actually was detrimental to their upper airway tract.





http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2004/July/17/Veterinary-Spotlight-Clear-the-air.aspx

The big controversy at Gulfstream was that he was shock waving all his horses.Which was illegal at the time he was allegedly doing it. I think that had more to do with his records then these throat surgeries ,that in my opinion work less than 30% of the time. Based on the results I have had and seen done.

[The Bit]

From a business stand point, I think he is good for the game.

From a public opinion of the sport view, I don't think he is good at all. Too many bad stories attached to him and his trainers.

[jfb]

The big controversy at Gulfstream was that he was shock waving all his horses.Which was illegal at the time he was allegedly doing it. I think that had more to do with his records then these throat surgeries ,that in my opinion work less than 30% of the time. Based on the results I have had and seen done.

I am not familiar with "shock waving." Please explain.

[onefast99]

I am not familiar with "shock waving." Please explain.
A shockwave machine applies high intensity ultrasonic shock waves to tissue, normally used for shins and the suspensory ligaments(other uses also) and studies show it reduces inflamation, it theoretically stimulates healing. Many horses require a 10 day cooling out period when this is done but some trainers have run horses a day or two later thus putting the horse in jeopardy of a breakdown. The cost is approx $350-$500 this method of therapy has a faster recovery period then blistering and firing.

[lamboguy]

1-15-2009

mr.gill had a very weak day in the entry department today at laurel he had one in , but was scratched. he caught another bad break with the cancelation of charlestown this evening. he had a few good shots there.

as far as penn national goes he had 7 starters, only 3 winners and 2 seconds for about $26,000 in purses.


i am sure GILL is working on getting more horses in more spots so he can improve on his win numbers.

like he said, he is just practicing, you ain't seen nothing yet!

[onefast99]

1-15-2009

mr.gill had a very weak day in the entry department today at laurel he had one in , but was scratched. he caught another bad break with the cancelation of charlestown this evening. he had a few good shots there.

as far as penn national goes he had 7 starters, only 3 winners and 2 seconds for about $26,000 in purses.


i am sure GILL is working on getting more horses in more spots so he can improve on his win numbers.

like he said, he is just practicing, you ain't seen nothing yet!
Has he claimed anything at the Fairgrounds? seems to be a track where you get the most for your money in the claim box.

[lamboguy]

i haven't seen him run at fairgrounds this year. one thing for sure he will be there, the question is who will he be there with next year?

[Mineshaft]

He hasnt run anything at FG this year. if he does run there next year im running every horse i can get my hands on at FG

[lamboguy]

1-16-2009

as luck would have it today, there was not 1 but 2 complete cancellations of full card racing. no racing at all for penn national and charlestown. mike had horses entered in both places.

he had one that did run in laurel. he managed only a third for a $2100 share of the purse.

i wonder why he doesn't run that many any more in maryland. maybe because there are no slots there yet. look for him to get a better smell of the entry box there once the slots are in maryland. i know maryland has his favorite venues, but i guess economics takes precedent these days.

[onefast99]

Dan Illman of DRF was on TVG and said that Gills claiming drops hurt the bettor and that is bad for the game. Gill has 225 horses right now according to TVG.

[lamboguy]

i am not sure if he is good or bad for the game, i only know he is THE GAME today.

if you guys think for one minute he will be happy just breaking the 1974 win record you are crazy. he wants to win over 1000 races this year. i think it is entirely possible.

he is advertising right now for more trainers. he pays $1000 a week and 5 % of the winning purse. right now he only has 10 track-trainers. i think he wants to double up real soon.

[JustRalph]

Dan Illman of DRF was on TVG and said that Gills claiming drops hurt the bettor and that is bad for the game. Gill has 225 horses right now according to TVG.

That was Mike Watchmaker and you understate what he said. I would say he "railed against Gill" and the problem with him getting back into the game. He also went through a nice diatribe as to why. He said it comes down to the bettor trying to handicap races where Gill is running horses ...........and when Matt C. quoted a Trainer of Gill's who said he was good for the game.......Watchmaker let it be known that this guy was speaking as a "trainer" not a bettor and that guys like him need to understand that Horsemen are not what keeps the game alive. Bettor's do.

I have never been a big fan of Watchmaker, but I am much more of a fan after hearing his comments yesterday.

[Nmytwenties]

I guess the bad thing about some states getting tough on drugs is that all of the "questionable" trainers and owners are ending up in one region or circuit. I really wasn't all that turned off by the drug issue by itself as long as it wasn't perverted by everyone being grouped into one area or group of tracks. As long as it was one or two people,Justin Evans and Mike Chambers at TuP,EMD,CBY, you could gauge their effectiveness off claims and also could factor in what would happen after they lose a horse to a lesser and/or honest outfit. I think it is something that can be mastered to a point as long as things don't go totally haywire.

What difference is there between Gill and other like Preciado, Vaders, Lake ,et al except maybe Gill having more of an ego? I just don't see how a race is bettable when you have all four of these connections in a single race as you have at Philly Park on a regular basis, just too many unknowns that you can't begin to figure on paper. It's gone haywire at tracks like CT,PEN,PHA it seems.

[lamboguy]

let me tell you something, there are so many of those people in those races, they all bet against each other. all of them think they have an edge over the other guy. it is your job to pick the right price on the horses and make your bets. if the bettors are good these guys will all get cleaned out.

[onefast99]

That was Mike Watchmaker and you understate what he said. I would say he "railed against Gill" and the problem with him getting back into the game. He also went through a nice diatribe as to why. He said it comes down to the bettor trying to handicap races where Gill is running horses ...........and when Matt C. quoted a Trainer of Gill's who said he was good for the game.......Watchmaker let it be known that this guy was speaking as a "trainer" not a bettor and that guys like him need to understand that Horsemen are not what keeps the game alive. Bettor's do.

I have never been a big fan of Watchmaker, but I am much more of a fan after hearing his comments yesterday.
It was Watchmaker,"what is bad for the bettor is bad for racing" I have to agree guys like Gill are looking to break the win record they will do it all all costs.

[JAMES GILL]

times like this you have too , who else?

[JAMES GILL]

Mike knows how to pick the horse ,(or a few ), and win with the claim . And win the eclipise award as well try that .its not so easy >Mikes father<

[ralph_the_cat]

I dont think he cares about making money he cares about the record just my opinion.


brilliant...

most trainers dont care about making money as much as one would think... thats why a large number go broke trying or dont have much to show for it... they'd rather win more races and profit whatever they can, rather than focus on having a larger profit and accepting your wins as they come... some will have trouble even understanding what I just said, but its the truth... thats why they have $1,200+ of legal meds going into a race for just a $4,000 claimer...

[JAMES GILL]

look at delware claiming . you cant claim the protected horses or else .

[JAMES GILL]

delware dont like claiming off the protected horses .or else .

[JAMES GILL]

what old tricks???

[Relwob Owner]

he claims he made a million 6 years ago for one year only. i would have thought he got burried at it. he claimed he payed taxes on it. today with slot machines and his farm in pennsylvania it will be close to impossible for this guy not to make big money at this game.

keep in mind he is not chasing big races right now, the majority of his horses run for less than $10k

That was for one year....did he mention how he fared in the other years? Also, it seems that it would be pretty hard to profit 6 million bucks with the high volume of horses he had....the overhead catches up with you.

I agree he is good for the game in general-his business dealings worry me because where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

I do know that at Charlestown, he doesnt seem to have done well at all so far

[Relwob Owner]

It was Watchmaker,"what is bad for the bettor is bad for racing" I have to agree guys like Gill are looking to break the win record they will do it all all costs.


I cant believe I am actually coming close to defending Gill but is he that much different than the IEAH guys, except that they buy privately at a much higher level, rather than claim? They both have had questionable dealings business wise, but it does seem like Gill takes a ton of heat-in addition, didnt the IEAH guys get busted for drugs when they started out?

Startom Bound was one of my favorite horses til IEAH but her....

It is too bad that these types of people seem to be the current faces of horse racing....give me a guy like Mike Pegram any day

[lamboguy]

i met mr. gill, he is a good man. he just seems like the type of guy that likes to live on the edge of things.

every living human has an ego going on within themselves. mike gill wants to prove he can be the best at what he does. he's not breaking any rules. if they catch him doing something wrong he will be penalized just like any one else.

i for one am rooting for him.

[JAMES GILL]

Maby you cant figure this .. Mike won the eclipse award remember , i think he knows horse raceing .and claiming ,better that any one .

[lamboguy]

Maby you cant figure this .. Mike won the eclipse award remember , i think he knows horse raceing .and claiming ,better that any one .

mike is a pure genious. he is my idol, when i grow up i want to be just like him.

forget about kentucky derby winners and other champions, mike plays in the real world with money and lots of it. he has proven the horseracing game wrong, he was able to buy an eclipse award winner, and probably lots of other awards to follow.

mike gill has turned the racing game into his own world, its mike's world now, everyone else is just living in it.

[MaryAinMI]

I need you guys (including Mike's Dad, Jim) to explain to me exactly what it is that Michael Gill brings to today's horseracing industry, including the claiming "game," that is so great.

I've got to admit I've got no skin in this game - I don't race or train horses. But I do love horseracing - I love the horses, I love the history, I love the way "class" always (hopefully) trumps greed, I love the new safety and welfare initiatives and expanded research on breakdowns, breeding, and track surface. I love that the industry is trying to reinvent itself to survive. I am extremely disappointed that it still has no national governing body - the lack of which I fear will ultimately contribute to it's downfall ...

But I digress ...

Michael Gill?? I'm rather ashamed (I'm probably in the minority here) that he won that 2005 Eclipse award as owner of the year. I just can't figure out why none of you professionals are ashamed as well. Since when was the Eclipse award meant for anything other than the absolte best horsemen (and horsewomen) - excellence; not numbers. To quote Ray Paulick: "Sheer numbers, especially at the claiming level, should not be misconstrued as excellence. In the category of outstanding owner ..., the leading candidates should be judged by how they performed at the top level of the sport, not the bottom level."

And the most discouraging part of Gill's resume? It's that he treats his horses - all 250 now, likely a hell of a lot more later this year - like "disposable handiwipes."

Tom McSchell! You say "This is my kind of guy." I don't understand that at all. When Judge's Case was ready to be done with racing and retired, you retired him - to a good home - and he is now being very well cared for at Old Friends Retirement Center. Please give me one - just one - example of Michael Gill taking a look at one of his horses and saying, as you did with Casey, that he's sad to say it but "Mr. Ed" is being retired, that he appreciates everything Mr. Ed did for him while racing and Mr. Ed will now be living out the rest of his days at a great home.

I really, really need to hear that Gill has done such a thing for his horses, even once.

Because a comment to DRF's Crist's blog includes the following from a happy bettor: "If [Gill] claimed a horse that looked so-so on paper, they would win. If the horse looked good on paper, they would win big. Also, anything claimed from him was a dead piece for their new trainer. I won a lot of bets just blindly betting anything he claimed and betting against anything claimed from him."

You've all probably heard about Mighty Beau by now? How Edwin Vazquez, Sr., claimed him for $25,000 on 5/10/08 for Gill from Scott Lake. How the horse didn't run for the next 4 months (myectomy time?), then was dropped into a $16K claimer at Philadelphia Park on 9/2/08 - where he finished 4th. Twelve days later, Gill drops the horse into a $20K claimer - at Delaware Park. Mighty Beau led, fell back to third at the turn, and continued to fall back - to last place - in the stretch despite strong urging from his jockey. The description of his race was "Stopped."

Two and a half months later, on 11/29/08, Mighty Beau runs for a $4,000 tag at Penn National, breaks down in the stretch, and is destroyed.

A champion racer, winner of $646,000, ran the first half of 2008 for tags of from $25K to $32K as a 9 year old - and they drop him in a $4,000 claiming race when he's clearly reached the end of his running career?? Exactly what was it that was so important to "win"?? I cannot for the life of me figure out why the hell that horse was even in that race. Gill had no other horses to run??

What happened to Mighty Beau makes me angry, and it should make you guys angry, too. And please don't embarrass me or yourselves by suggesting that "breakdowns happen." Indeed, they do - but this one didn't need to happen. By dropping him from a $20K tag directly to a $4K tag, it sure looks like Gill knew the horse had reached the end of his running career. Why not retire him instead of trying to get some other trainer to claim his problem?

Gill claims and claims and claims, then uses these animals up to make money and score wins so that he can feel important. How can any of you guys settle for that as someone you look up to or agree with or are happy is back in your industry?

To me, he makes a mockery of the claiming game, and he makes a mockery of the integrity of each one of you. He shows one of the places where horseracing is utterly broken.

I need you guys to explain to me what it is I don't "get" about this guy. I need you guys to explain why he is good for the game.

[lamboguy]

the man won the eclipse award, bought and paid for. he claims all types of horses that no one else will claim. he does the right thing giving them time and brings them back better than ever.

he sticks his hand up at the sales for big money and over pays every single time. he is trying to do something no one else can do. make money in the horse business with bottom horses. i wish him well.

[Relwob Owner]

I need you guys (including Mike's Dad, Jim) to explain to me exactly what it is that Michael Gill brings to today's horseracing industry, including the claiming "game," that is so great.

I've got to admit I've got no skin in this game - I don't race or train horses. But I do love horseracing - I love the horses, I love the history, I love the way "class" always (hopefully) trumps greed, I love the new safety and welfare initiatives and expanded research on breakdowns, breeding, and track surface. I love that the industry is trying to reinvent itself to survive. I am extremely disappointed that it still has no national governing body - the lack of which I fear will ultimately contribute to it's downfall ...

But I digress ...

Michael Gill?? I'm rather ashamed (I'm probably in the minority here) that he won that 2005 Eclipse award as owner of the year. I just can't figure out why none of you professionals are ashamed as well. Since when was the Eclipse award meant for anything other than the absolte best horsemen (and horsewomen) - excellence; not numbers. To quote Ray Paulick: "Sheer numbers, especially at the claiming level, should not be misconstrued as excellence. In the category of outstanding owner ..., the leading candidates should be judged by how they performed at the top level of the sport, not the bottom level."

And the most discouraging part of Gill's resume? It's that he treats his horses - all 250 now, likely a hell of a lot more later this year - like "disposable handiwipes."

Tom McSchell! You say "This is my kind of guy." I don't understand that at all. When Judge's Case was ready to be done with racing and retired, you retired him - to a good home - and he is now being very well cared for at Old Friends Retirement Center. Please give me one - just one - example of Michael Gill taking a look at one of his horses and saying, as you did with Casey, that he's sad to say it but "Mr. Ed" is being retired, that he appreciates everything Mr. Ed did for him while racing and Mr. Ed will now be living out the rest of his days at a great home.

I really, really need to hear that Gill has done such a thing for his horses, even once.

Because a comment to DRF's Crist's blog includes the following from a happy bettor: "If [Gill] claimed a horse that looked so-so on paper, they would win. If the horse looked good on paper, they would win big. Also, anything claimed from him was a dead piece for their new trainer. I won a lot of bets just blindly betting anything he claimed and betting against anything claimed from him."

You've all probably heard about Mighty Beau by now? How Edwin Vazquez, Sr., claimed him for $25,000 on 5/10/08 for Gill from Scott Lake. How the horse didn't run for the next 4 months (myectomy time?), then was dropped into a $16K claimer at Philadelphia Park on 9/2/08 - where he finished 4th. Twelve days later, Gill drops the horse into a $20K claimer - at Delaware Park. Mighty Beau led, fell back to third at the turn, and continued to fall back - to last place - in the stretch despite strong urging from his jockey. The description of his race was "Stopped."

Two and a half months later, on 11/29/08, Mighty Beau runs for a $4,000 tag at Penn National, breaks down in the stretch, and is destroyed.

A champion racer, winner of $646,000, ran the first half of 2008 for tags of from $25K to $32K as a 9 year old - and they drop him in a $4,000 claiming race when he's clearly reached the end of his running career?? Exactly what was it that was so important to "win"?? I cannot for the life of me figure out why the hell that horse was even in that race. Gill had no other horses to run??

What happened to Mighty Beau makes me angry, and it should make you guys angry, too. And please don't embarrass me or yourselves by suggesting that "breakdowns happen." Indeed, they do - but this one didn't need to happen. By dropping him from a $20K tag directly to a $4K tag, it sure looks like Gill knew the horse had reached the end of his running career. Why not retire him instead of trying to get some other trainer to claim his problem?

Gill claims and claims and claims, then uses these animals up to make money and score wins so that he can feel important. How can any of you guys settle for that as someone you look up to or agree with or are happy is back in your industry?

To me, he makes a mockery of the claiming game, and he makes a mockery of the integrity of each one of you. He shows one of the places where horseracing is utterly broken.

I need you guys to explain to me what it is I don't "get" about this guy. I need you guys to explain why he is good for the game.


One of the best, most eloquent posts I have read....you are quite an idealist, which is a good thing. He is good for the game, only in the sense that he pumps a ton of money into the game. You have done a terrific job in pointing out the fact that how he does it is not good-great post in my opinion

[JAMES GILL]

Lamboguy thank you for a nice post .

Mike puts his money on the line and picks what he thinks will win in the claim ,

If he wins you call him Names , if he looses you say hes stupid for buying the Nag off so in so . but he puts his money where is mouth is ,

and you say hes bad for the game , He looses stalls because he dares to claim off the untochables , (what you cant do) he does . and wins the elclipse award in doing so,

Try buying a horses (lots of horses ) and paying the bills you will see whats is involved other then a rest home for the age . talk is cheap

[lamboguy]

i think i know a little bit about that james. when i put my horses on the racetrack i am in big trouble.

if you can do me a favor, please put in the good word for me with your son, ask him
not to leave me out of the party and claim my horses in penn national.

[miesque]

Does anyone on this board still not know that Gill won an Eclipse Award?

Last time I checked winning one or even a plethora of Eclipse Awards does not immunize one from criticism, because if that were the case there were be a drastic reduction in the amount of posts on racing internet forums. By your rationale, Frank Stronach must be truly irreproachable and above criticism because of all the Eclipse Awards he has racked up.

[proximity]

he is advertising right now for more trainers. he pays $1000 a week and 5 % of the winning purse. right now he only has 10 track-trainers. i think he wants to double up real soon.

i certainly don't begrudge the guy for claiming and racing tons of horses, but paying $1,000+ a week to some of these clowns???? JAMES GILL need strayten sun out!!

[Relwob Owner]

Does anyone on this board still not know that Gill won an Eclipse Award?

Last time I checked winning one or even a plethora of Eclipse Awards does not immunize one from criticism, because if that were the case there were be a drastic reduction in the amount of posts on racing internet forums. By your rationale, Frank Stronach must be truly irreproachable and above criticism because of all the Eclipse Awards he has racked up.


Good point--also, doesnt anyone ever speak up about the fact that Stronach owns tracks and horses.....seems like a huge conflict of interest-only in Horse Racing!

[MaryAinMI]

>>Good point--also, doesnt anyone ever speak up about the fact that Stronach owns tracks and horses.....seems like a huge conflict of interest-only in Horse Racing!<<

I should probably start a new thread re this as don't want to drift too far off-topic - but this is a very interesting situation. What are the ways (there may be several - you guys know lots more about the handle/purse/betting/revenue sharing side of the business than I do) that Mr. Stronach has used his ownership of (1) MEC (maybe he owns tracks through other entities?) and (2) his breeding and racing Adena Springs operation to manipulate the industry or any of its participants to their detriment? Or if he hasn't, what are the potential conflicts of interest that should be looked out for (bad sentence construction, but you catch my drift). Thanks!

[Cash_McCool]

Who the heck is Lars Becdelamotte and where did Gill find him? Training for Gill at PHA.

[Gallop58]

Old internet quote:
“They all came back good and will eventually head to Florida for the winter,” said Lars Becdelamotte, assistant to McPeek

[supercap]

Good point--also, doesnt anyone ever speak up about the fact that Stronach owns tracks and horses.....seems like a huge conflict of interest-only in Horse Racing!
You would think so, but the arabs who print money cant win the derby. Point being even with all the odds stacked in your favor still hard to win.

[Citation1947]

Lars Becdelamotte & Jevon Crumley in, Mike Catalano out. Catalano was shown the door.

[smokinjoe@bp]

i certainly don't begrudge the guy for claiming and racing tons of horses, but paying $1,000+ a week to some of these clowns???? JAMES GILL need strayten sun out!!

1000+ a week,he must have money to burn... :lol:

[Relwob Owner]

You would think so, but the arabs who print money cant win the derby. Point being even with all the odds stacked in your favor still hard to win.


You got that right

[Maryland Owner]

that Gill was sending 25 horses to Mike Pino - haven't confirmed this info.

[proximity]

Lars Becdelamotte & Jevon Crumley in, Mike Catalano out. Catalano was shown the door.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: good move by mr gill!! maybe his dad has been reading the thread to him.....

[Relwob Owner]

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: good move by mr gill!! maybe his dad has been reading the thread to him.....


I gotta say this about Mr. Gill-he takes a ton of crap and some of it seems justified. However, when compared with that other prevalent owner in the Mid Atlantic owner, he seems like a saint----his horses dont seem to show nearly the level of unreal improvement as the other guy.

Gill just seems like a guy with a ton of dough who wants to own a ton of horses-he uses the rules to his advantage but nothing seems too out of wack with his new horses and how they perform---maybe I am missing something and I am just blinded with disgust for the other guy

[Citation1947]

I gotta say this about Mr. Gill-he takes a ton of crap and some of it seems justified. However, when compared with that other prevalent owner in the Mid Atlantic owner, he seems like a saint----his horses dont seem to show nearly the level of unreal improvement as the other guy.

Gill just seems like a guy with a ton of dough who wants to own a ton of horses-he uses the rules to his advantage but nothing seems too out of wack with his new horses and how they perform---maybe I am missing something and I am just blinded with disgust for the other guy


If that was the case, Tim Hooper and his asst, "Needles" Dave Boyer wouldnt be working for Gill. But the rumor buzzing around is Hooper is about to be shown the door as well. We'll see.

[onefast99]

Good point--also, doesnt anyone ever speak up about the fact that Stronach owns tracks and horses.....seems like a huge conflict of interest-only in Horse Racing!
I dont see a conflict at all. Yes he owns GP. The racing secretary writes races that his stock may or may not be eligible for. Brunetti owns Hialeah do you think they wrote races just for him? Do you see any conflict with Brunetti or is it the fact that mis-management of MEC leads you to believe this?

[Relwob Owner]

I dont see a conflict at all. Yes he owns GP. The racing secretary writes races that his stock may or may not be eligible for. Brunetti owns Hialeah do you think they wrote races just for him? Do you see any conflict with Brunetti or is it the fact that mis-management of MEC leads you to believe this?


It is pretty simple-he owns the tracks and all of the people who work there are technically under his watch and can be influenced by him. Maybe there is nothing strange ever going on and I cant say that I have ever seen it but it is a little too close for comfort.

Plus, he can make policy decisions at the track and easily attempt to influence people that would affect the racing.

[Relwob Owner]

If that was the case, Tim Hooper and his asst, "Needles" Dave Boyer wouldnt be working for Gill. But the rumor buzzing around is Hooper is about to be shown the door as well. We'll see.



I am so disgusted by Robert Cole that I guess I figure that anyone else isnt that bad

[onefast99]

It is pretty simple-he owns the tracks and all of the people who work there are technically under his watch and can be influenced by him. Maybe there is nothing strange ever going on and I cant say that I have ever seen it but it is a little too close for comfort.

Plus, he can make policy decisions at the track and easily attempt to influence people that would affect the racing.
He is overseen by the Florida Horsemans Association so it may not be as simple as saying hey scratch the 5 in race 7 today at the gate because its the only horse in my race that can beat me. I'm sure Frank has a lot of power over his people but tampering with a pari-mutuel event is one that could send him to the big house. Dont forget he has Adena Springs and each and every year he gets a lot of nice ones to the track. Last 2 years it was Ginger Punch and I have seen a few thus far this meet at GP that can run.

[JWBurnie]

I see the conflict as well.

I would have to believe an owner/trainer would think twice prior to claiming a Stronach horse. Maybe not the first one, or second, but I don't think you would want to make a habit of it. What would happen if one of the above named owner/trainers started claiming a bunch of his runners? Can you imagine how it would feel to be beat by a horse that you bred, at a track you own (losing money) that is now running career best figures? "Hey, rattled off three in a row...congratulations....pay the man."

I'd like to see some stats on horses claimed from him, could be interesting.....

[onefast99]

I see the conflict as well.

I would have to believe an owner/trainer would think twice prior to claiming a Stronach horse. Maybe not the first one, or second, but I don't think you would want to make a habit of it. What would happen if one of the above named owner/trainers started claiming a bunch of his runners? Can you imagine how it would feel to be beat by a horse that you bred, at a track you own (losing money) that is now running career best figures? "Hey, rattled off three in a row...congratulations....pay the man."

I'd like to see some stats on horses claimed from him, could be interesting.....
He runs his horses all over the country. He had Ginger punch available for 17k as a baby at the sale. Anyone could of reached in and plunked down that little bit of money and had a 2m plus stakes winner. Claiming off of Stronach should be treated like claiming off any other owner. Look before you buy.

[onefast99]

I am so disgusted by Robert Cole that I guess I figure that anyone else isnt that bad
There will be owners like him in every sport. Unless you like the Yankees you despise George Steinbrenner!

[kingryon]

gill has many motives and beliefs.here's a guy who claims 95% of his horses off high win % trainers,lake ,dutrow,klesaris hell even pletcher when he lays one in.he is scared of nobody.hooper is outlasting everyone else this guy hires,he wins at a decent clip(20%),averaging about $3500 a start.now, you tell me who else claims off these tigers and does that well?claiming is no easy game and anyone who has a sniff about it knows these are solid numbers.if mr. gill shows him the door,i think others would open.widely.

[Relwob Owner]

There will be owners like him in every sport. Unless you like the Yankees you despise George Steinbrenner!


I am not a Yankees fan at all but George Steinbrenner has more class in his little pinkie than Cole has in his whole body---if you have ever seen him at the races, you would agree.

If Steinbrenner knowingly drugged his players then the comparison is accurate

[onefast99]

Maby you cant figure this .. Mike won the eclipse award remember , i think he knows horse raceing .and claiming ,better that any one .
He has shown some vulnerability, I am wondering if this current round of claiming is his swan song!

[Citation1947]

who is "needles"?

gill has many motives and beliefs.here's a guy who claims 95% of his horses off high win % trainers,lake ,dutrow,klesaris hell even pletcher when he lays one in.he is scared of nobody.hooper is outlasting everyone else this guy hires,he wins at a decent clip(20%),averaging about $3500 a start.now, you tell me who else claims off these tigers and does that well?claiming is no easy game and anyone who has a sniff about it knows these are solid numbers.if mr. gill shows him the door,i think others would open.widely.

"who is "needles""?

I think it was very self explanatory. Now go back to your TMH user account and please, if you're going to try and be slick, at least learn how first. :lol:

[MaryAinMI]

I gotta say this about Mr. Gill-he takes a ton of crap and some of it seems justified. However, when compared with that other prevalent owner in the Mid Atlantic owner, he seems like a saint----his horses dont seem to show nearly the level of unreal improvement as the other guy.

Gill just seems like a guy with a ton of dough who wants to own a ton of horses-he uses the rules to his advantage but nothing seems too out of wack with his new horses and how they perform---maybe I am missing something and I am just blinded with disgust for the other guy

>>who wants to own a ton of horses<< Actually, I think he just wants to own a ton of money-making horses. If he ends up "owning" a non-performer, that non-performer disappears. :confused:

Whats the scoop on Robert Cole? Why disgusted with him? I don't really know anything about him.

[Relwob Owner]

>>who wants to own a ton of horses<< Actually, I think he just wants to own a ton of money-making horses. If he ends up "owning" a non-performer, that non-performer disappears. :confused:

Whats the scoop on Robert Cole? Why disgusted with him? I don't really know anything about him.


he is a big owner in the Mid Atlantic----his horses tend to improve quite a bit when he aquires them and that improvement raises a ton of suspiscion, justified in my opinion....I have seen him at tracks and he behaves in a pretty bad way and a personla level, doesnt seem like too good of a guy.

[Mineshaft]

he is a big owner in the Mid Atlantic----his horses tend to improve quite a bit when he aquires them and that improvement raises a ton of suspiscion, justified in my opinion....I have seen him at tracks and he behaves in a pretty bad way and a personla level, doesnt seem like too good of a guy.




Can you describe how he behaves in a bad way at the track? Cussing? yelling?

[Relwob Owner]

Can you describe how he behaves in a bad way at the track? Cussing? yelling?



Loud, boorish, obnoxious, disrespectful to help.....not a crime but annoying nonetheless:).....

[Mineshaft]

Loud, boorish, obnoxious, disrespectful to help.....not a crime but annoying nonetheless:).....





I guess he throws his weight around so to speak

[Relwob Owner]

I guess he throws his weight around so to speak


You got that right.....:):)...

[MaryAinMI]

Does Michael Gill ever show up at the tracks? How does he behave there?

[Citation1947]

Does Michael Gill ever show up at the tracks? How does he behave there?

Kingryon...err, THM, should be able to answer that best for you since he is Gill's "number one guy" :rolleyes:

[Relwob Owner]

Does Michael Gill ever show up at the tracks? How does he behave there?


A few weeks ago, people were commenting on Gill's success rate....at CT, he doesnt seem to be doing all that great and seems like he is a decent bet against.....how is he doing at the other tracks?

[Citation1947]

Kingryon...err, THM, should be able to answer that best for you since he is Gill's "number one guy" :rolleyes:


Oops...I meant TMH, instead of THM. My bad Mr H.

[Mineshaft]

So what happened to Marcus Vitali at Penn National? He was one of Gill's trainers and now the horses have been transferred to Darrel Delahoussaye who by the way is a scum trainer all by himself

[onefast99]

So what happened to Marcus Vitali at Penn National? He was one of Gill's trainers and now the horses have been transferred to Darrel Delahoussaye who by the way is also a scum trainer all by himself
Is there any good ones at Penn, im thinking of sending a few non-performers there.

[Mineshaft]

Is there any good ones at Penn, im thinking of sending a few non-performers there.






Have no clue im not from there. Gotta be a few honest trainers at Penn. But in my opinion, Delahoussaye is not one of them. And if you have a horse trailer i would lock it up if i was you.

[onefast99]

Have no clue im not from there. Gotta be a few honest trainers at Penn. But in my opinion, Delahoussaye is not one of them. And if you have a horse trailer i would lock it up if i was you.
I'm going to look at the standings there has to be a few decent ones I know a few owners that use Norman Pointer and another uses Murray Rojas.

[JWBurnie]

Is there any good ones at Penn, im thinking of sending a few non-performers there.

Flint Stites is a stand-up guy from what I've heard and seen. He was a practicing vet. He ships all over w/ a good %.

[Relwob Owner]

Flint Stites is a stand-up guy from what I've heard and seen. He was a practicing vet. He ships all over w/ a good %.


Ditto to that from what I have heard......


What about Stephanie Beattie....she seems to win a few races!!!!:):)

[TonyK@HSH]

Is there any good ones at Penn, im thinking of sending a few non-performers there.

Mike Salvaggio is as honest as they come and always sports a 20% + win percentage. Several of Mike Hushions owners use Mike including Barry Schwartz and Marty Cunningham. I also put my money behind Mike.
When interviewing trainers there- it's worth a phone call to speak to him and I'm sure he'd get postive reference check from the NY owners I noted above.

TonyK

[proximity]

So what happened to Marcus Vitali at Penn National? He was one of Gill's trainers and now the horses have been transferred to Darrel Delahoussaye who by the way is a scum trainer all by himself

i believe some of his crew has returned to delaware. MAY B JAMESGILL RETERN TO THRED AND LETUS NO FORE SHORE!!

[proximity]

Mike Salvaggio is as honest as they come and always sports a 20% + win percentage. Several of Mike Hushions owners use Mike including Barry Schwartz and Marty Cunningham. I also put my money behind Mike.
When interviewing trainers there- it's worth a phone call to speak to him and I'm sure he'd get postive reference check from the NY owners I noted above.

TonyK

mr salvaggio is both a solid horseman and a gentleman too. probably about the last guy to tell you how good he is. a far far cry from most of the "trainers" mentioned in this thread....

[Mineshaft]

i believe some of his crew has returned to delaware. MAY B JAMESGILL RETERN TO THRED AND LETUS NO FORE SHORE!!






please speak English...

[philcski]

It is pretty simple-he owns the tracks and all of the people who work there are technically under his watch and can be influenced by him. Maybe there is nothing strange ever going on and I cant say that I have ever seen it but it is a little too close for comfort.

Plus, he can make policy decisions at the track and easily attempt to influence people that would affect the racing.

I see the conflict as well.

I would have to believe an owner/trainer would think twice prior to claiming a Stronach horse. Maybe not the first one, or second, but I don't think you would want to make a habit of it. What would happen if one of the above named owner/trainers started claiming a bunch of his runners? Can you imagine how it would feel to be beat by a horse that you bred, at a track you own (losing money) that is now running career best figures? "Hey, rattled off three in a row...congratulations....pay the man."

I'd like to see some stats on horses claimed from him, could be interesting.....

Of all the dumb things Stronach has done as an owner of racetracks (and there's plenty- paying what he did for Maryland is among the all-time worst deals in the history of the game) one thing he's never done is exert his ownership for the betterment of his stable. You NEVER see conditions written "just for him" or any other potential sleight of hand that could go unnoticed. He has a tremendous breeder/owner operation, from conception to post-retirement. He truly deserves all of his Eclipse awards.

Additionally, he runs very few horses for claim- they go to his retirement facility to be retrained as show horses. We looked at a few as potential riding horses and they are top notch. A little too difficult for me as a novice rider so we didn't make a purchase from him but if I was a better rider I would have in a heartbeat.


http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=2760497

http://www.adenaretirement.com/

[Doc]

please speak English...

LOL ... my thoughts exactly!!! :ThmbUp:

[Little Watermelon]

Does Michael Gill ever show up at the tracks? How does he behave there?

I have sat above him in the Terrace Room at Suffolk a couple of times. He comes across as a nice, family-oriented guy, who is polite and enthusiastic about his horses, whether running there or at other tracks, and treats the staff very well. All else aside, his behavior is impeccable...probably better than mine at times, to be honest. He has never appeared boorish.

[Ian Meyers]

Does Michael Gill ever show up at the tracks? How does he behave there?

I saw him a couple of times at the old GP, at the Rooftop Bar & Grill. He was very nice, quiet and well-mannered sitting with his family enjoying the races. You never would have known he had about a dozen horses in at tracks throughout the Eastern U.S. He didn't even root loud. :)

[BombsAway Bob]

I saw him a couple of times at the old GP, at the Rooftop Bar & Grill. He was very nice, quiet and well-mannered sitting with his family enjoying the races. You never would have known he had about a dozen horses in at tracks throughout the Eastern U.S. He didn't even root loud. :)
Mr.Gill has come a LOOONG WAY from having Carlos 'King of the Fairs' Figueroa training $4,000 claimers for him at Rockingham Park(Where It All Began!).

[Relwob Owner]

I saw him a couple of times at the old GP, at the Rooftop Bar & Grill. He was very nice, quiet and well-mannered sitting with his family enjoying the races. You never would have known he had about a dozen horses in at tracks throughout the Eastern U.S. He didn't even root loud. :)



Good to hear....Mr. Cole should take some notes from Mr. Gill

[flewsfiggsfigure]

Correct me if I've missed something but no one has seemed to have much success claiming off him lately. A few of his trainers that are training with 20-30% winners are pretty sharp I've heard. I guess we will see what the future holds. I predict a good summer for him at some of these meets that are starting soon.

[lamboguy]

mr. gill in one of the nicest guys you ever want to meet. he loves his family. he plays very hard. he is involved in the horse business every step of the way.

during his first go round in the horse business they stuck it to him, whether in california or at the sales. he stepped back, caught a breath, took a break and is back with fire in his eyes. the man wants to prove to the world that he can succeed in the horse racing business. he takes every legal edge you can find in the game, including entering 2 horses in a race and scratching the one that draws bad. if they both draw good he runs them both.

he is a good competitor, and doesn't complain much. a great guy to have in this game now.

[Citation1947]

mr. gill in one of the nicest guys you ever want to meet. he loves his family. he plays very hard. he is involved in the horse business every step of the way.

during his first go round in the horse business they stuck it to him, whether in california or at the sales. he stepped back, caught a breath, took a break and is back with fire in his eyes. the man wants to prove to the world that he can succeed in the horse racing business. he takes every legal edge you can find in the game, including entering 2 horses in a race and scratching the one that draws bad. if they both draw good he runs them both.

he is a good competitor, and doesn't complain much. a great guy to have in this game now.


Except he makes poor choices for when choosing trainers, including his so-called "number one guy" who supposedly "learned from Lake"

That's like learning from Barry Bonds.

[proximity]

please speak English...

in the first sentence of my reply i alerted you to the possibility that he could be at delaware. i'm not 100% on that and actually don't really care where the hell marcus vitalli is. but since i was the only one of 9900+ pace handicappers on this board to give you an answer..... don't bite the hand.

then in sentence number two, i attempted (using his native tongue) to implore mr gill's father JAMESGILL (you have read the entire thread, right?) into coming back onto p.a. and possibly cluing you in on the whereabouts of vitalli... or at the very least teaching me yet another unique way of spelling the word "eclipse".

[proximity]

Except he makes poor choices for when choosing trainers, including his so-called "number one guy" who supposedly "learned from Lake"

That's like learning from Barry Bonds.:lol:


well, hopefully kingryon was absent the semester professor lake taught "accounting for supertrainers".

[lamboguy]

i think you might find marcus vitali heading up to boston to take charge of the gill operation at suffrin downs, i mean sulfolk downs.

[Citation1947]

Michael Pino in, Pino now out. I heard he just plain out said the hell with this operation. Evan Jackson replaced him a few days back....now as of yesterday Jackson is out too.

As the Revolving Door Turns.....

[Mineshaft]

So Pino trained for Gill also?

[Doc]

I don't know if anyone noticed, but Gill had a horse break down and fall in the 4th race last night at Penn National. It was Padach, sent off the second choice in the field of 11. Had a 2-length lead at the half-mile pole when he went down. This one was trained by Evan Jackson, Jr.

[proximity]

i've been told that lamboguy is correct about mv going to suf....

[Citation1947]

I don't know if anyone noticed, but Gill had a horse break down and fall in the 4th race last night at Penn National. It was Padach, sent off the second choice in the field of 11. Had a 2-length lead at the half-mile pole when he went down. This one was trained by Evan Jackson, Jr.



Jackson was already fired(or perhaps only demoted to an asst trainer) before that race ever ran. It was to be his last race as trainer for Gill.

Murray Rojas may be out now too.

And that's a big 10/4 on Vitali.

[proximity]

Jackson was already fired(or perhaps only demoted to an asst trainer) before that race ever ran. It was to be his last race as trainer for Gill.

Murray Rojas may be out now too.

And that's a big 10/4 on Vitali.

i believe jackson jr was pino's assistant.

[Doc]

Why in God's name does he keep changing trainers? I'll bet he's one of these micro-managers that calls all the shots.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Gill's a micro-manager, or at least that was the case six or seven yrs ago at Delaware Park. That probably explains his affinity to low-profile trainers. He would constantly bark orders at Shuman during training hours over the push-to-talk cell. You don't bark orders at Mike Pino, Scott Lake or most of the other perrenial leaders at Delaware. Gill made Mark Shuman, so he had every right to run things the way he wanted. As for Gill's behavior at the track, he's always seemed perfectly fine to me. And in the end, Shuman turned into a very capable trainer.

[smokinjoe@bp]

i've been told that lamboguy is correct about mv going to suf....

was there any doubt? lambo knows his stuff well,and has a huge amount of contacts in the racing business

[lamboguy]

Gill's a micro-manager, or at least that was the case six or seven yrs ago at Delaware Park. That probably explains his affinity to low-profile trainers. He would constantly bark orders at Shuman during training hours over the push-to-talk cell. You don't bark orders at Mike Pino, Scott Lake or most of the other perrenial leaders at Delaware. Gill made Mark Shuman, so he had every right to run things the way he wanted. As for Gill's behavior at the track, he's always seemed perfectly fine to me. And in the end, Shuman turned into a very capable trainer.

hey let me tell you something, that mark shuman is a damn good trainer now.

i hear he is still friendly with mike gill to this day. i think he is not the type to go back and train for gill. i notice that shuman has developed a few good young horses lately.

the first time i ever heard the name mike gill was around 2003 when i walked into gulfstream on my way up to ocala. i heard on the loudspeaker vic stauffer announcing the claims after the race. so he announces the first claim for owner mike gill and trainer mark shuman. 2 seconds later he announces another claim for owner mike gill, trainer mark shuman. the next race vic announces 2 more claims for the same owner trainer combination, i asked my friend, i haven't been in this place in years, what the hell is going on. he answers where have you been, don't you know gill wants all the horses in this place?

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=lamboguy]hey let me tell you something, that mark shuman is a damn good trainer now. QUOTE]

To me, "very capable" (my description of Shuman) and "damn good" trainer are one in the same, so I wasn't trying to slight Mr. Shuman.

To this day, Shuman is very loyal to Mike Gill, defending his claiming tactics to the racing media whenever he's called on. Unfortunately that loyalty appears to be a one-way street, as Gill has claimed from Shuman in the past year. Now Gill has every right in the world to claim horses from whomever he likes. He should never be punished in anyway for his claiming tactics (assuming he plays by the rules - which I believe he has). All this said, if a former trainer of mine has worked hard for me and is one of my strongest public defenders, I personally would not claim from him.

I had to laugh about your first recollection of hearing about Gill. I remember thinking the same thing at Laurel in 2001. Who is this guy claiming horses left and right (at the time he was using mainly J. Robb)? Now we all know!

[Citation1947]

Steer clear of Michael Gill's Geefour(5/2) in the 5th at Philly tomorrow....IN MY OPINION, hes as lame as they can get. Will probably be scratched once TMH reads this....then again, it's only a horse in that barn.

[lamboguy]

there seems to be alot of trainer changes in the gill operation, i can't keep track of them all. one thing i can promise you is that if he hasn't broken the record yet for total scratches this year, he will blow that record to smitherines.

i am sure mike is trying to get the right team in place for the summer!

[Citation1947]

there seems to be alot of trainer changes in the gill operation, i can't keep track of them all. one thing i can promise you is that if he hasn't broken the record yet for total scratches this year, he will blow that record to smitherines.

i am sure mike is trying to get the right team in place for the summer!


The "right team" of what though is the question. If you mean trainers that treat horses like disposable entities, then he needs a few more trainers like his "number one guy"

[lamboguy]

when you have so many trainer changes there seems to be "lack of contunuity"

he has come up with a new concept in the horse business these days. he is doing everything opposite than what i would do after 30 years in this game. i am always open to learning "a better way of doing things" maybe mike gill has the answer and knows alot more than the people that have been at it for a long time. he claims to be making big money at the game these days, if he is doing it with the record he is producing lately i wish him the best, just like in the old days, goood luck to you and the red sox

[tmh]

man citation you sure seem to know alot about team gill. since that is all you post about seems to me that you are a disgruntled ex- employee.you sure seem to hate hooper since you knock him constantly. p.s. im not who you think i am!

[Citation1947]

Team Gill(especially the Hooper operation) has been a complete failure to date. With the amounts of money that Gill has been spending and the types of horses he has been claiming, his winning percentage should be much much greater than the current 17%. Hooper has the majority of Gill's horses and is allowed the best of the bunch and is struggling at a meager 18%. Eighteen percent equals FAILURE for this operation!!

It is much easier to win at a higher percentage when you are playing the claiming game claiming all the best of the claimers.

Both Gill and Hooper should be winning races close to if not over 30%. As an owner, you are not going to win a very high percentage of races with clueless trainers anymore so than having a barn full of bad racing stock. Gill doesnt really have bad racing stock, he just makes terrible choices in trainers with guys who are truly not "horsemen" - if you asked some of these guys what Equus Caballus or Eohippus was or were, they wouldnt have a clue because they dont truly know the animals they train.

You need "horsemen" for trainers that know leg work, nutrition and equine psychology instead of needle injections. Sound horses win races. Happy horses win races. Intelligent horses win races. Not to knock ALL Gill's trainers, but you wont find many of these kinds racing under the Gill colors. Gill could easily change that if he wanted too, then he would find himself winning at the proper level he should be.

[tmh]

lol

[tmh]

citation i guess your stats would be better. currently 19% 49% according to equibase. i would say that is far from horrible. if you have your trainers license feel free to contact gill since he has had an ad in the form recently. seems to me the guy hasn't done that bad and he has outlasted at least 5-6 other trainers to come throgh the farm. man you are just a bitter person, everyone of your posts is of the negative sort.

[SimplePleasures]

Mike Salvaggio is as honest as they come and always sports a 20% + win percentage. Several of Mike Hushions owners use Mike including Barry Schwartz and Marty Cunningham. I also put my money behind Mike.
When interviewing trainers there- it's worth a phone call to speak to him and I'm sure he'd get postive reference check from the NY owners I noted above.

TonyK

I personally know Mike and Crystal if you want a phone number let me know.

[Citation1947]

How is posting facts and truths equate to "bitter person" Mr. H? I did not start this thread....

Btw, I got my stats from Bloodhorse....



Rank(wins) Trainer Starts Wins Places Shows Win% WPS%
1 Steven M. Asmussen 778 164 125 122 21% 53%
2 Scott A. Lake 445 92 60 77 21% 51%
3 Stephanie S. Beattie 236 77 52 25 33% 65%
4 Jerry Hollendorfer 356 74 68 55 21% 55%
5 Keith G. Bourgeois 305 62 38 45 20% 48%
6 Jamie Ness 196 60 30 30 31% 61%
7 W. Bret Calhoun 257 60 37 30 23% 49%
8 Todd A. Pletcher 280 57 38 44 20% 50%
9 Jeff C. Runco 219 52 46 26 24% 57%
10 Michael J. Maker 177 52 34 19 29% 59%
11 Gary C. Contessa 409 51 69 69 12% 46%
12 Steve Klesaris 165 46 39 31 28% 70%
13 Jeff Mullins 166 44 23 25 27% 55%
14 Kirk Ziadie 150 43 33 23 29% 66%
15 Timothy Hooper 235 43 43 28 18% 49%
16 Kiaran P. McLaughlin 181 43 27 29 24% 55%
17 Steve M. Sherman 157 42 27 25 27% 60%
18 Chris A. Hartman 148 41 30 17 28% 59%
19 Bruce N. Levine 231 41 44 34 18% 52%
20 Mike R. Mitchell 133 39 22 24 29% 64%


Hooper striking at 18% is like saying Ted Williams hitting .350 batting against high school pitching is "far from horrible" - Ted should be hitting .600 or better. Hooper with the stock he gets with those numbers makes him an under-achiever.

[Relwob Owner]

citation i guess your stats would be better. currently 19% 49% according to equibase. i would say that is far from horrible. if you have your trainers license feel free to contact gill since he has had an ad in the form recently. seems to me the guy hasn't done that bad and he has outlasted at least 5-6 other trainers to come throgh the farm. man you are just a bitter person, everyone of your posts is of the negative sort.


I dont know about his other posts but this one seems to be right on the mark....with the volume of horses he has, I think 25-30 percent plus would be a necessary hit rate......he has claimed from Beattie, which in the Mid Atlantic claiming game is not the smartest thing to do IMHO

[lamboguy]

mike gill got nothing to worry about, sulfolk downs opens up in 2 weeks. i will bet anybody on this board that he will be the leading owner at sulfolk this year, and i will spot you 10 wins to boot!!

[Maryland Owner]

To me, the ultimate "worth" of a trainer is twofold. Strike or success rate is obviously important but I also value average earnings per start. A lot of the operations such as Beattie/Cole claim horses for 10,000 and race them for
4,000 or 5,000- a very easy way to bolster win percentange and in the money stats. What I really worry about is the condition of the horse when it is claimed away from a trainer. Unfortunately, the trainer reports on the condition of horses claimed from Gill is very negative - that is part of the reason that so few horses are claimed away from him.

[MaryAinMI]

mike gill got nothing to worry about, sulfolk downs opens up in 2 weeks. i will bet anybody on this board that he will be the leading owner at sulfolk this year, and i will spot you 10 wins to boot!!

The leading owner by total money or the leading owner by percentage of wins? You throw enough horses at enough races, it's easy to bring in the cash. Who cares about that?

[lamboguy]

john rigateri will probably be leading money winner in sulfolk, only because he runs better horses in better spots and does a top notch job. michael gill won't have to run most of his horse's against john, if he does he will get beat.

[lamboguy]

larz becelente now went from team gill to wayne catalano for a player to be named later!

i don't think mike was to happy with the horse that ran yesterday in philadelphia that drew circles over the field and got a lucky 3rd!

maybe the trainer should not run that horse 3 times in 19 days.

one thing about mike gill he certainly strives for perfection and is not afraid to make swift changes in his operation. i lost count about 2 weeks ago but i know he has gone thru about 25 different trainers this year alone.

[onefast99]

larz becelente now went from team gill to wayne catalano for a player to be named later!

i don't think mike was to happy with the horse that ran yesterday in philadelphia that drew circles over the field and got a lucky 3rd!

maybe the trainer should not run that horse 3 times in 19 days.

one thing about mike gill he certainly strives for perfection and is not afraid to make swift changes in his operation. i lost count about 2 weeks ago but i know he has gone thru about 25 different trainers this year alone.
His best bet may be to become a trainer himself as he seems to know more then the current group of trainers he has.

[MaryAinMI]

His best bet may be to become a trainer himself as he seems to know more then the current group of trainers he has.

Undoubtedly Gill sure thinks he does! :D

Seriously though, I wonder if he will ever take the time to sit back and think about why he is only able to attract a certain caliber of trainer. I personally think that fact reflects hugely on him. He's horribly mistaken if he continues to think the only thing that matters within the circles of true horsemen and professional and sincere racing professionals and enthusaists is the amount of his winnings.

[Citation1947]

larz becelente now went from team gill to wayne catalano for a player to be named later!


Larz is better off back with Catalano. Training for Gill is not a positive mark on your resume.




maybe the trainer should not run that horse 3 times in 19 days.


Are you surprise when I tell you it's not the trainers doing the entering? These guys are puppets and run the horses where Gill/Adamo decide. The trainers are just names on the program. They are nobodies brought in to do the training for next to nothing. At 17% winners you get what you pay for.



one thing about mike gill he certainly strives for perfection and is not afraid to make swift changes in his operation.

If you ever seen his barn in Oxford, perfection isnt a word you'd use to describe it. Words like joke or parlay or criminal comes to mind.

[Citation1947]

currently 19% 49% according to equibase. i would say that is far from horrible.


Now at 17% 47% and dropping fast according to Bloodhorse. I would say that is far from expected.

[Saratoga_Mike]

His best bet may be to become a trainer himself as he seems to know more then the current group of trainers he has.

At one pt, Gill had his trainer's license in NH, I believe (Rockingham). I believe he served one suspension for a positive test, which he disputed vehemently. Again, I believe this to be the case. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[lamboguy]

i have been at this game for quite awhile. with the guys i deal with, i am lucky if they take one horse at a time from me to train. gill gives these guys 30 sore horses at a time, and when they can't run no more he finds more to give them. from what i am told gill spent the weekend in penn national reviewing his prize operation, and decided to make some changes. the guys spends over $250,000 a month now to just train the horses. i have not seen to many of his horses get claimed. he don't run his horses in the right spots because he don't want anyone claiming them from him. his trainers might tell him not to run the horse, but to him if a race is open he runs them no matter what!

he is the greatest bet against in the history of horse racing, i hope he last's for awhile this time. everyone of his horses look so good on paper and all run poorly.

[Citation1947]

At one pt, Gill had his trainer's license in NH, I believe (Rockingham). I believe he served one suspension for a positive test, which he disputed vehemently. Again, I believe this to be the case. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Here are a couple of old articles on Gill.

http://horseracingtalk.wordpress.com/2009/01/14/michael-gill-hes-back/


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/16/sports/horse-racing-winning-leaves-bitter-taste-for-a-horse-owner.html?sec=&spon=


In the next article, I thought this quote about sums things up. "They shouldn’t look at him any different than a guy like Cole Norman."

http://www.nwanews.com/story.php?paper=adg&section=Sports&storyid=105566

[Saratoga_Mike]

i have been at this game for quite awhile. with the guys i deal with, i am lucky if they take one horse at a time from me to train. gill gives these guys 30 sore horses at a time, and when they can't run no more he finds more to give them. from what i am told gill spent the weekend in penn national reviewing his prize operation, and decided to make some changes. the guys spends over $250,000 a month now to just train the horses. i have not seen to many of his horses get claimed. he don't run his horses in the right spots because he don't want anyone claiming them from him. his trainers might tell him not to run the horse, but to him if a race is open he runs them no matter what!

he is the greatest bet against in the history of horse racing, i hope he last's for awhile this time. everyone of his horses look so good on paper and all run poorly.

First, I always appreciate your insight. However, I find it interesting how your attitude toward Mr. Gill has changed over the past few months. The majority of your posts from a few months ago were fawning and laudatory. Now you seem somewhat more cyncial toward Mr. Gill, almost jaded. Why the change of heart?

[Citation1947]

gill gives these guys 30 sore horses at a time, and when they can't run no more he finds more to give them. .


I would say some of the claims are sore, sure....but most arent. Those sore claims are coming from other trainers without a clue as well. But the ones that are sound, it wont take long before they are unsound too. These horses have hit rock bottom once that claim slip has been dropped in for them. Like going to prison. They cant go anywhere but up from there if they can make it out in one piece.

[lamboguy]

First, I always appreciate your insight. However, I find it interesting how your attitude toward Mr. Gill has changed over the past few months. The majority of your posts from a few months ago were fawning and laudatory. Now you seem somewhat more cyncial toward Mr. Gill, almost jaded. Why the change of heart?

mike gill is calling every shot in his organization. he just wants to fill races so he can say he broke a record for the year in wins. there is no way in life i can praise a man for running the same horse 3 times in 19 days after the trainer tells him the horse is sore. it borderlines on cruelty to the animals. look at it this way, if you were a boxer, you fought mahamed ali, he knocks you out, and in 2 weeks you go and face evander hollifield, he knocks you out, then you face joe frazier a month later. you will have no brain left. samething with the horses.

[Relwob Owner]

i have been at this game for quite awhile. with the guys i deal with, i am lucky if they take one horse at a time from me to train. gill gives these guys 30 sore horses at a time, and when they can't run no more he finds more to give them. from what i am told gill spent the weekend in penn national reviewing his prize operation, and decided to make some changes. the guys spends over $250,000 a month now to just train the horses. i have not seen to many of his horses get claimed. he don't run his horses in the right spots because he don't want anyone claiming them from him. his trainers might tell him not to run the horse, but to him if a race is open he runs them no matter what!

he is the greatest bet against in the history of horse racing, i hope he last's for awhile this time. everyone of his horses look so good on paper and all run poorly.


LG,


Why the change of heart???? You had always supported MG and now you seem like you are thinking differently-is it his recent tactics that have changed your mind? Not giving you heat at all, just curious to see what might have led to the 180.....

Gill definitely intrigues me and I always watch his pickups....seems like at CT, they havent fared that well of late.

[Relwob Owner]

First, I always appreciate your insight. However, I find it interesting how your attitude toward Mr. Gill has changed over the past few months. The majority of your posts from a few months ago were fawning and laudatory. Now you seem somewhat more cyncial toward Mr. Gill, almost jaded. Why the change of heart?


Damn, you beat me to it! I basically wrote the same thing you did....sorry for the repetition....:)

[Saratoga_Mike]

mike gill is calling every shot in his organization. he just wants to fill races so he can say he broke a record for the year in wins. there is no way in life i can praise a man for running the same horse 3 times in 19 days after the trainer tells him the horse is sore. it borderlines on cruelty to the animals. look at it this way, if you were a boxer, you fought mahamed ali, he knocks you out, and in 2 weeks you go and face evander hollifield, he knocks you out, then you face joe frazier a month later. you will have no brain left. samething with the horses.

Mr. Gill has called every shot in the organization from inception, from the days of barking orders at Mark Shuman over the push-to-talk at Delaware Park to picking races for each horse. I grew up with harness horses, so I understand sore horses, although I still wish t'breds were as durable as standardbreds. I guess a few months ago you hadn't seen instances where you thought Mr. Gill was racing horses back too quickly.

[lamboguy]

i had met gill personally 4 years ago in rockingham park. when i spoke to him then he told me he had a program to give horses time after the wear and tear the stress of racing put on them. now he has done an about face and he is chasing records instead of taking care of his horses. when people who are not involved with the horse racing industry see what he is doing to the horses it will turn people off to the game.

i have no problem with him claiming all the horses he wants, its his money, but when it comes down to compromising the care of the animal in search of chasing records i get offended. he is cheapening up the product. he now has become no good for the game.

[Saratoga_Mike]

i had met gill personally 4 years ago in rockingham park. when i spoke to him then he told me he had a program to give horses time after the wear and tear the stress of racing put on them. now he has done an about face and he is chasing records instead of taking care of his horses. when people who are not involved with the horse racing industry see what he is doing to the horses it will turn people off to the game.

i have no problem with him claiming all the horses he wants, its his money, but when it comes down to compromising the care of the animal in search of chasing records i get offended. he is cheapening up the product. he now has become no good for the game.

Wow, this is racing's version of Paul's road to Damascus.

[MaryAinMI]

"mike gill is calling every shot in his organization. he just wants to fill races so he can say he broke a record for the year in wins. there is no way in life i can praise a man for running the same horse 3 times in 19 days after the trainer tells him the horse is sore. it borderlines on cruelty to the animals."

Iamboguy - I am so glad you are seeing this guy for exactly who and what he is.

[PaceAdvantage]

there is no way in life i can praise a man for running the same horse 3 times in 19 days after the trainer tells him the horse is sore.Perhaps I missed it elsewhere (I have to read every post, so sometimes I mess up), but can you point me to the public record which states the trainer told him the horse is sore yet he ran the horse 3 times in 19 days anyway....

Thank you.

[Citation1947]

look at it this way, if you were a boxer, you fought mahamed ali, he knocks you out, and in 2 weeks you go and face evander hollifield, he knocks you out, then you face joe frazier a month later. you will have no brain left. samet hing with the horses.


That scenario could never happen. Holyfield did not fight in the same era as Ali and Fraizer. ;)

[lamboguy]

Perhaps I missed it elsewhere (I have to read every post, so sometimes I mess up), but can you point me to the public record which states the trainer told him the horse is sore yet he ran the horse 3 times in 19 days anyway....

Thank you.

as you well know there will never be a "public record" of a trainer running a sore horse. admitting to it is bad for future reference.

[PaceAdvantage]

as you well know there will never be a "public record" of a trainer running a sore horse. admitting to it is bad for future reference.Then why do you make such accusations without offering up any proof? Is everyone around here willfully ignorant of even the simplest concepts of message board etiquette?

Unreal.

[proximity]

That scenario could never happen. Holyfield did not fight in the same era as Ali and Fraizer. ;)

that is true, but they did share a common opponent!! :)

http://content.clearchannel.com/Photos/sports_photos/Boxing/george_foreman_GI.jpg (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTbx6qA_hJYncB9wajzbkF/SIG=135pa9rcu/EXP=1241077034/**http%3A//content.clearchannel.com/Photos/sports_photos/Boxing/george_foreman_GI.jpg)

[Citation1947]

Ahh...was that the cook at the Ali/Frazier fights?

[lamboguy]

Then why do you make such accusations without offering up any proof? Is everyone around here willfully ignorant of even the simplest concepts of message board etiquette?

Unreal.

my good man there is nothing unreal about this. if mr. gill wants to come on this board and dispute this he can. i will come up with no less than 4 of his trainers present or prior that will admit to this.

[Bubba X]

Ahh...was that the cook at the Ali/Frazier fights?
Well, that "cook" has done ok for himself. Salton Corp was almost b-rupt when it offered Foreman a 60% stake in the product in return for his name and promo efforts.

George cashed out to the tune of $125 Million plus another $10 Mil for the right to continue using his name and image in perpetuity.

At it's height, George was making $4 Mil a month off the product.

Not bad.

[proximity]

if mr. gill wants to come on this board and dispute this he can...

or maybe if we're lucky JAMESGILL himself will return to the thread with yet another ekllipise award caliber post!!

[lamboguy]

some of these prior gill trainers actually quit him because they were not happy with the operation!!!

[Citation1947]

Well, that "cook" has done ok for himself. Salton Corp was almost b-rupt when it offered Foreman a 60% stake in the product in return for his name and promo efforts.

George cashed out to the tune of $125 Million plus another $10 Mil for the right to continue using his name and image in perpetuity.

At it's height, George was making $4 Mil a month off the product.

Not bad.


Atually im a big George Foreman fan. He is a person you can admire and look up too. A positive role model for children. A very decent human being both in and out of the ring.

[Show Me the Wire]

my good man there is nothing unreal about this. if mr. gill wants to come on this board and dispute this he can. i will come up with no less than 4 of his trainers present or prior that will admit to this.

Why does he have to defend himself? These 4 or more trainers should come forward and talk to the stewards or the State racing board if they feel Mr. Gill is harming his horses.

Without any physical proof of wrong doing given to the proper agencies, Mr. Gill should not have to defend his reputation to you or anyone else.

He pays his money and it is his right to manage his business as he sees fit.

[lamboguy]

Why does he have to defend himself? These 4 or more trainers should come forward and talk to the stewards or the State racing board if they feel Mr. Gill is harming his horses.

Without any physical proof of wrong doing given to the proper agencies, Mr. Gill should not have to defend his reputation to you or anyone else.

He pays his money and it is his right to manage his business as he sees fit.

one thing for sure, he don't have to defend his action's to his horses.

[Show Me the Wire]

Okay let's try it this way. Whom is acting worse? The trainers that supposedly know a specific owner is injuring horses, risking the lives of jocks and horses, and risking other people's captial investment, or the owner?

My money is on the trainers, whom are keeping quite for fear of pecuniary losses or to save their own skin. So until this evil silent cabal comes forward with proof leave the owner alone.

[PaceAdvantage]

my good man there is nothing unreal about this. if mr. gill wants to come on this board and dispute this he can. i will come up with no less than 4 of his trainers present or prior that will admit to this.So I will take this as "Yes, I am being willfully ignorant of even the simplest concept of message board etiquette."

Good to know.

[lamboguy]

So I will take this as "Yes, I am being willfully ignorant of even the simplest concept of message board etiquette."

Good to know.

in this country their is no governing body in the racing industry that calls in a trainer after the horse has 3 poor performances in a row that the public has wagered their money on. in japan and other jurisdictions they do.

this is the leading horse-race message board on the internet right now. you have accused me of poor message board etiquette because there is no governing body or anything written in any publication substantiating what i have said. so what has happened is that this has become another sweep under the rug instance in the industry. i shouldn't be the one that brings this to anyone's attention, it should be racing itself. if those horses are not sore the public should have the confidence of a governing body sanctioning those horses. just like if there are any impropriotries in the actual integrity of the mutual pools.

[Relwob Owner]

in this country their is no governing body in the racing industry that calls in a trainer after the horse has 3 poor performances in a row that the public has wagered their money on. in japan and other jurisdictions they do.

this is the leading horse-race message board on the internet right now. you have accused me of poor message board etiquette because there is no governing body or anything written in any publication substantiating what i have said. so what has happened is that this has become another sweep under the rug instance in the industry. i shouldn't be the one that brings this to anyone's attention, it should be racing itself. if those horses are not sore the public should have the confidence of a governing body sanctioning those horses. just like if there are any impropriotries in the actual integrity of the mutual pools.


LG,

In the short time I have been on this board, I have learned a lot about forums in general(this is my first one) and some of the things that come along with it......you and I share similar concerns with regards to trainers and what some of them do. However, this forum is not the appropriate place to bring them up and make accusations. I know it sucks and like you, I wish many things in this great sport were different and we didnt have to be the ones who see it....however, we arent there yet and things we do to advance things should be done off this forum, where we cant be looked at as making false accusations, etc.

Pace, in my opinion, does an amazing job with this forum and puts himself way out there in terms of liability and slander concerns. I am not good at holding my tongue but it became clear to me the amount of trouble he and the Forum can get into making claims that arent backed up with proof.

I only interject here because I think it might help for someone other than PA to give you a view of things....from your posts, it seems like a guy who is concerned with fairness and hopefully, I have done a little to convince you that you arent being fair to Pace or the Forum by making the accusations you are(whether they are true or not in your opinion)....hope this makes some sense.....

[lamboguy]

i brought up a fact, a horse ran 3 times in 19 days, each time worse than the last time even after a class drop. obviously the horse did not look sore to the state vet in his very short examination of the horse before the race. but that does not mean that the horse wasn't sore. it just means it got by the quick examination.

this is the way the racing industry operates. when a horse has poor performances no one cares. from what i can see the racing handles have been on a steady decline in the united states, while its been up all over the world that have better backdrops in place.

the people in charge in the racing business constanly turn their backs on controversial issues. if their paychecks were 5 minutes late they would have you arrested.

[Mineshaft]

i brought up a fact, a horse ran 3 times in 19 days, each time worse than the last time even after a class drop. obviously the horse did not look sore to the state vet in his very short examination of the horse before the race. but that does not mean that the horse wasn't sore. it just means it got by the quick examination.

this is the way the racing industry operates. when a horse has poor performances no one cares. from what i can see the racing handles have been on a steady decline in the united states, while its been up all over the world that have better backdrops in place.

the people in charge in the racing business constanly turn their backs on controversial issues. if their paychecks were 5 minutes late they would have you arrested.






Absolutely 100000% true...

[Show Me the Wire]

i brought up a fact, a horse ran 3 times in 19 days, each time worse than the last time even after a class drop. obviously the horse did not look sore to the state vet in his very short examination of the horse before the race. but that does not mean that the horse wasn't sore. it just means it got by the quick examination.

this is the way the racing industry operates. when a horse has poor performances no one cares. from what i can see the racing handles have been on a steady decline in the united states, while its been up all over the world that have better backdrops in place.

the people in charge in the racing business constanly turn their backs on controversial issues. if their paychecks were 5 minutes late they would have you arrested.

Now that is a valid criticism about the way the system works. I agree with you 100%. This type of criticism is entirely appropriate for this type of message board.

[onefast99]

i brought up a fact, a horse ran 3 times in 19 days, each time worse than the last time even after a class drop. obviously the horse did not look sore to the state vet in his very short examination of the horse before the race. but that does not mean that the horse wasn't sore. it just means it got by the quick examination.

this is the way the racing industry operates. when a horse has poor performances no one cares. from what i can see the racing handles have been on a steady decline in the united states, while its been up all over the world that have better backdrops in place.

the people in charge in the racing business constanly turn their backs on controversial issues. if their paychecks were 5 minutes late they would have you arrested.
Right on the money with this post!

[lamboguy]

Now that is a valid criticism about the way the system works. I agree with you 100%. This type of criticism is entirely appropriate for this type of message board.

this is not my board, as long as the guy that lets me post i will. its not my candy store though and maybe mr. pace don't want to ruffle anyones feathers.

maybe he has not seen what sore horses look like. i have seen plenty of sore horses break down during a race. i have seen plenty of jockeys go down with life long injuries like rudy baez years ago. he is the nicest kid you ever want to meet, he is now paralized from an accident in a horse race. i have seen fatal incident's in the racing fair's in new england.

these are the types of things that give racing a bad name. i bring out these facts because i am on the side of saftey and caution. others that critic me for what i have to say might have other agenda's.

if anyone doesn't like my message board etiquette i will no longer post here. i don't want to make anyone unhappy with me.

[Show Me the Wire]

lamboguy:

It is not about you being welcome or not it is about where is the appropriate place and/or when it is the appropriate time to make specific statements about specific people.

The civil laws of the United States make this the wrong place to make certain claims without proof. You may be sincere, and I am not saying you are not, but the statements you made regarding a certain owner could result in substantial liability to PA.

You may not care about yourself, but you should be enough of a gracious guest to care enough to keep PA out of trouble.

For example the stewards at the track are an appropriate place to discuss your concerns about the well being and safety of horses.

From my experience, the stewards I've shared concerns with carried out their duties.

[lamboguy]

stewards are usually good. what i would like is a group of judges like in japan that review every single race. if there is a reason to call the person to the table to explain why the horse ran better than the last race or worse than the last race. i know it would cost some money, but if it was done properly you would have more people involved in the sport.

a sore horse is just an opinion, multiple sore horses are not. so if someone has a history of running sore looking horses i think that person should be looked into no matter who the trainer or owner's are.

in new england they allowed the use of bute during a race. so now a sore horse does not look sore to a vet. in new hampshire they allowed a higher content of bute than in mass. or at one time rhode island. when the horse walked infront of the state vet he looked good, but his problems still existed.

[Show Me the Wire]

.........a sore horse is just an opinion, multiple sore horses are not. so if someone has a history of running sore looking horses i think that person should be looked into no matter who the trainer or owner's are.

in new england they allowed the use of bute during a race. so now a sore horse does not look sore to a vet. in new hampshire they allowed a higher content of bute than in mass. or at one time rhode island. when the horse walked infront of the state vet he looked good, but his problems still existed.

I agree with you. The problems you bring up are systematic. The State racing Board allows bute. You and your felllow owners and/or the horsemen association should lobby the board to ban bute. Myself I disagree with the idea of letting a horse race with bute.

The state vet problem is also systemic . It sounds like the vet could be a bit more competent. Again suggest lobbing the board for a vet change.

It seems all your complaints come from the rules set by the board and the enforcement of these rules.

I also understand that sometimes it is difficult to tell if a horse is sore, because they communicate to us with their actions and not with words.

Additionally, I understand that some people, trainers and owners, may push the envelope or try and take an unfair edge. Once, again that is a systemic problem, because the system has too many excuses and not enough enforcement of its own. Some of that comes from plain incompetence of people and others due to greed.

Rail against the system all you like, until the system is corrected.

Look at it this way. Let's say hypothetically some owner is running sore horse in a certain jurisdiction becuase bute is allowed. Even if this mythical owner is stopped, his tossing would not stop the abuse. The rules remain the same and another mythical unethical owner could do the same. So you see it is the rules that are flawed and that is what you want to fix. You do not fix flawed rules by accusing any person of incompetence or intentional mistreatment of animals.

Do you see the difference? The individual may be removed, but the opportunity still exist to be exploit flawed rules.

[lamboguy]

I agree with you. The problems you bring up are systematic. The State racing Board allows bute. You and your felllow owners and/or the horsemen association should lobby the board to ban bute. Myself I disagree with the idea of letting a horse race with bute.

The state vet problem is also systemic . It sounds like the vet could be a bit more competent. Again suggest lobbing the board for a vet change.

It seems all your complaints come from the rules set by the board and the enforcement of these rules.

I also understand that sometimes it is difficult to tell if a horse is sore, because they communicate to us with their actions and not with words.

Additionally, I understand that some people, trainers and owners, may push the envelope or try and take an unfair edge. Once, again that is a systemic problem, because the system has too many excuses and not enough enforcement of its own. Some of that comes from plain incompetence of people and others due to greed.

Rail against the system all you like, until the system is corrected.

Look at it this way. Let's say hypothetically some owner is running sore horse in a certain jurisdiction becuase bute is allowed. Even if this mythical owner is stopped, his tossing would not stop the abuse. The rules remain the same and another mythical unethical owner could do the same. So you see it is the rules that are flawed and that is what you want to fix. You do not fix flawed rules by accusing any person of incompetence or intentional mistreatment of animals.

Do you see the difference? The individual may be removed, but the opportunity still exist to be exploit flawed rules.

that is all that i have been trying to say. there is no such thing as one owner or trainer being the problem, it is the system.

i have no idea how not adressing the problem is any good for the future of horseracing. horses are a big business in certain area's. horseracing needs more people involved in the game.

maggi moss runs many horses all over the place. they all look good to me. she is a great model for the game. she has plenty that run on the bottom and she treats them the same as the ones that are running for higher purses.

[PaceAdvantage]

i brought up a fact, a horse ran 3 times in 19 days, each time worse than the last time even after a class drop.No, that's not all you said...you also stated that this horse was run 3 times in 19 days EVEN AFTER THE TRAINER TOLD THE OWNER THE HORSE WAS SORE.

All I wanted was some clarification on that last part...which you never provided.

[onefast99]

that is all that i have been trying to say. there is no such thing as one owner or trainer being the problem, it is the system.

i have no idea how not adressing the problem is any good for the future of horseracing. horses are a big business in certain area's. horseracing needs more people involved in the game.

maggi moss runs many horses all over the place. they all look good to me. she is a great model for the game. she has plenty that run on the bottom and she treats them the same as the ones that are running for higher purses.
Interesting I claimed one from her she was as sore as you can get her name was Lady's case. It's part of the game and it will be here a long time, buyer beware.

[Citation1947]

Well the latest news buzzing around is, Hooper is out and the transition over to Delahoussaye or whoever will be taking place over the next few days. If this comes to be the case, all I have to say is, it's about time. The best move Gill has made all year.

[lamboguy]

the same horses that got beat in philadelphia and penn national seem to be appearing at sulfolk downs, most on class raises, and most winning by open lengths.

did someone here say that in massachusetts they allow steroids and high contents of bute?

[fmolf]

the same horses that got beat in philadelphia and penn national seem to be appearing at sulfolk downs, most on class raises, and most winning by open lengths.

did someone here say that in massachusetts they allow steroids and high contents of bute?
the first thing we need to do is have standardized rules regarding lasix bute and other drugs... so all jurisdictions are on the same page.....next we have to have national stewards that travel from track to track and deliver completely unbiased observation and judgement of the races with no hidden agendas or friendships built up over years at the same track.this is how it is done in all other sports!can you imagine if the yankees supplied the umpires for every game at yankee stadium...laughable!do not kill michael gill for playing by the rules currently in place he did not make them ..and i do not agree with his methods either!

[lamboguy]

the first thing we need to do is have standardized rules regarding lasix bute and other drugs... so all jurisdictions are on the same page.....next we have to have national stewards that travel from track to track and deliver completely unbiased observation and judgement of the races with no hidden agendas or friendships built up over years at the same track.this is how it is done in all other sports!can you imagine if the yankees supplied the umpires for every game at yankee stadium...laughable!do not kill michael gill for playing by the rules currently in place he did not make them ..and i do not agree with his methods either!

why would the horse racing industry do that? their handles would only increase ten fold if they did something smart like that!

don't you see its to easy to do that?

the only way to dismantle this great sport is to keep the same bad policies in place

[fmolf]

why would the horse racing industry do that? their handles would only increase ten fold if they did something smart like that!

don't you see its to easy to do that?

the only way to dismantle this great sport is to keep the same bad policies in place
and that my friend is exactly what they are doing :bang:

[Maryland Owner]

Well the latest news buzzing around is, Hooper is out and the transition over to Delahoussaye or whoever will be taking place over the next few days. If this comes to be the case, all I have to say is, it's about time. The best move Gill has made all year.

Source ?

[Citation1947]

Source ?


Lol...find your own sources. :p

[lamboguy]

hooper is still in the gill team, he might have got days, i am not sure of that though.

[macguy]

I like that idea of stewards rotating through the tracks similar to the way professional referees and umpires do.

Of course with that, there would have to be uniform rules and regulations from coast to coast. :rolleyes:

[Citation1947]

hooper is still in the gill team, he might have got days, i am not sure of that though.


He's supposedly out as of this weekend. But now im hearing he may have quit or given notice(Gill isnt paying him right or something), instead of being canned. Or maybe he was about to be canned and quit first(who knows) -

The past two weeks has been hectic for all involved in the Gill organization(probably why TMH hasnt logged on all week) - Tony Adamo is temp running the barn there now.

[lamboguy]

He's supposedly out as of this weekend. But now im hearing he may have quit or given notice(Gill isnt paying him right or something), instead of being canned. Or maybe he was about to be canned and quit first(who knows) -

The past two weeks has been hectic for all involved in the Gill organization(probably why TMH hasnt logged on all week) - Tony Adamo is temp running the barn there now.

you know as well as i, that there are constant changes on the gill team. so anything is possible!

the only reason why i try to keep up with it is because he is "mr. racing" in the midatlantic region. that's where i am racing so i try to keep up with it!!!

[fmolf]

I like that idea of stewards rotating through the tracks similar to the way professional referees and umpires do.

Of course with that, there would have to be uniform rules and regulations from coast to coast. :rolleyes:
that would be a good start towards respectability and credability....wouldn't you say?..standardized drug rules and standardized testing policies!

[onefast99]

I like that idea of stewards rotating through the tracks similar to the way professional referees and umpires do.

Of course with that, there would have to be uniform rules and regulations from coast to coast. :rolleyes:
Tracks are not like baseball fields or football fields which are pretty much uniform. A Delta steward would have a tough time at Belmont or Gulfstream Park I like the way it is now stewards who have been at their home tracks for a long time and know the ins and outs of race riding based on the track surface and structure(many ex-jocks are stewards). Uniformity for illegal substances is a must, not for a steward.

[KathleenImposter]

Wed. entries for Penn has several "previously trained by Tim Hooper" now trained by Tony Adamo. The rumors may be true.

[Relwob Owner]

Tracks are not like baseball fields or football fields which are pretty much uniform. A Delta steward would have a tough time at Belmont or Gulfstream Park I like the way it is now stewards who have been at their home tracks for a long time and know the ins and outs of race riding based on the track surface and structure(many ex-jocks are stewards). Uniformity for illegal substances is a must, not for a steward.


I agree...question, though. Shouldnt the rules for if you get taken down be uniform? I know at some tracks it is whether a foul accurred or not and some, it is strictly whether the outcome of the race was affected(in California this is the case and it makes provides another layer of subjectivity)....shouldnt it be the same everywhere?

[onefast99]

I agree...question, though. Shouldnt the rules for if you get taken down be uniform? I know at some tracks it is whether a foul accurred or not and some, it is strictly whether the outcome of the race was affected(in California this is the case and it makes provides another layer of subjectivity)....shouldnt it be the same everywhere?
No, look at delta it is a bullring and Belmont is a nice wide track as well as CD and GP. Keep the stewards who are familiar with their tracks at their tracks. As in any race it is case by case on whether a foul occurred and in general the stewards do a good job getting things right.

[Relwob Owner]

No, look at delta it is a bullring and Belmont is a nice wide track as well as CD and GP. Keep the stewards who are familiar with their tracks at their tracks. As in any race it is case by case on whether a foul occurred and in general the stewards do a good job getting things right.


I think you took "shouldnt it be the same everywhere" to mean the stewards, not the rules........I may not have been clear in my post...I agree that the local stewards familiar with the tracks should stay, just like you do....my question about uniformity is actually raised by your response....

You say, "in any race, it is case by case on whether a foul occurred"....from watching multiple tracks, I have noticed this isnt the case...In California, for example, I believe that a horse can be blowing by a horse, bang him and not get taken down....so, in this case a foul did occur but it is explained by the fact that the horse would have blown by the other anyways so in this case, whether a foul occurred doesnt really matter because it didnt affect the outcome.....at other tracks, I have seen horses taken down because of that and because "a foul occurred" and whether it affected the outcome didnt matter.

I have thought this for a while and also seen it debated on TVG as well and the idea that there are different rules for take downs and steward judgements/interpretations at different tracks...

Hope I was a bit clearer on this one...

[onefast99]

I think you took "shouldnt it be the same everywhere" to mean the stewards, not the rules........I may not have been clear in my post...I agree that the local stewards familiar with the tracks should stay, just like you do....my question about uniformity is actually raised by your response....

You say, "in any race, it is case by case on whether a foul occurred"....from watching multiple tracks, I have noticed this isnt the case...In California, for example, I believe that a horse can be blowing by a horse, bang him and not get taken down....so, in this case a foul did occur but it is explained by the fact that the horse would have blown by the other anyways so in this case, whether a foul occurred doesnt really matter because it didnt affect the outcome.....at other tracks, I have seen horses taken down because of that and because "a foul occurred" and whether it affected the outcome didnt matter.

I have thought this for a while and also seen it debated on TVG as well and the idea that there are different rules for take downs and steward judgements/interpretations at different tracks...

Hope I was a bit clearer on this one...
Thanks for the clarification. These guys have a tough job and yes they are wrong on occassion just like umpires and referees are in their respective sport. Why is it in the NBA or college basketball that a foul is rarely called in the last 15 or so seconds of a tight game? How come there is never a holding penalty called in a close NFL game that is headed towards overtime? Why can the NHL head linesman let a player be pulled down in the last 15 or so seconds of a tie game and make no call? The same rules apply in tight races.

[Relwob Owner]

Thanks for the clarification. These guys have a tough job and yes they are wrong on occassion just like umpires and referees are in their respective sport. Why is it in the NBA or college basketball that a foul is rarely called in the last 15 or so seconds of a tight game? How come there is never a holding penalty called in a close NFL game that is headed towards overtime? Why can the NHL head linesman let a player be pulled down in the last 15 or so seconds of a tie game and make no call? The same rules apply in tight races.



Yep...they do have a tough job and I definitely think your analogies fit....I dont really agree with them in the pther sports and dont agree in horse racing but that is just an opinion.....

[Citation1947]

These horses have hit rock bottom once that claim slip has been dropped in for them. Like going to prison. They cant go anywhere but up from there if they can make it out in one piece.


Sadly just this week, three Gill horses have catastrophically broken down.

Tragic breakdown of Terrior in the 5th, Sunday night at Penn. Im told the rider, Alcibades Cortez may be in very bad shape.

Surveyor was vanned off on May 26th in the 8th race at Philly. I hear he wasnt doing very good back at the recieving barn.

And the lovely filly, Fishers Mill broke down in the last race at Philly on Sat.

There have been a number of other horses eased this week as well, including Lycurgus, Joanne's Paulus, Arpleasure and Clair Bear, just to name a few. My connections tell me these horses didnt come back very well. And all this is just this week.

When will the destruction end?

[onefast99]

Sadly just this week, three Gill horses have catastrophically broken down.

Tragic breakdown of Terrior in the 5th, Sunday night at Penn. Im told the rider, Alcibades Cortez may be in very bad shape.

Surveyor was vanned off on May 26th in the 8th race at Philly. I hear he wasnt doing very good back at the recieving barn.

And the lovely filly, Fishers Mill broke down in the last race at Philly on Sat.

There have been a number of other horses eased this week as well, including Lycurgus, Joanne's Paulus, Arpleasure and Clair Bear, just to name a few. My connections tell me these horses didnt come back very well. And all this is just this week.

When will the destruction end?
Are you saying that Gill was the only one to have breakdowns at PP? The track isn't in the greatest of shape we raced there last week and our jock told us the rail was dead and the middle of the track was as hard as it gets.

[MaryAinMI]

Are you saying that Gill was the only one to have breakdowns at PP? The track isn't in the greatest of shape we raced there last week and our jock told us the rail was dead and the middle of the track was as hard as it gets.

Do the jockeys report these conditions to track management? This is the kind of stuff that makes me crazy. Several breakdowns - more than average - a professional notes track issues - and nothing is reported to, or gets done by, track management? Why is that?

[onefast99]

Do the jockeys report these conditions to track management? This is the kind of stuff that makes me crazy. Several breakdowns - more than average - a professional notes track issues - and nothing is reported to, or gets done by, track management? Why is that?
That's the million dollar question!

[MaryAinMI]

That's the million dollar question!

Well that's what I mean onefast. Did you tell track management about what your jockey said? Did your jockey? Did you ask management and track maintenance what they did about your and your jockey's complaints? Did you check with the owners/trainers/jockeys that ran the horses that were hurt and urge them to complain about track conditions?

[Not4Love]

Yeah, go ahead and blame it on the track. This has nothing do with Michael Gill. How about a Polytrack? That will solve everything.

[onefast99]

Well that's what I mean onefast. Did you tell track management about what your jockey said? Did your jockey? Did you ask management and track maintenance what they did about your and your jockey's complaints? Did you check with the owners/trainers/jockeys that ran the horses that were hurt and urge them to complain about track conditions?
No as my jockey just mentioned the fast part of the track and the dead part of the track he isn't obligated nor am I to tell the track maintenance crew anything unless he feels his life or the horse's is threatened by a major track flaw. And furthermore this has nothing to do with horses going down as none did the day I raced there.

[onefast99]

Yeah, go ahead and blame it on the track. This has nothing do with Michael Gill. How about a Polytrack? That will solve everything.
Well said poly is the new cure-all, it even relieves the pain of jock itch.

[Mineshaft]

Sadly just this week, three Gill horses have catastrophically broken down.

Tragic breakdown of Terrior in the 5th, Sunday night at Penn. Im told the rider, Alcibades Cortez may be in very bad shape.

Surveyor was vanned off on May 26th in the 8th race at Philly. I hear he wasnt doing very good back at the recieving barn.

And the lovely filly, Fishers Mill broke down in the last race at Philly on Sat.

There have been a number of other horses eased this week as well, including Lycurgus, Joanne's Paulus, Arpleasure and Clair Bear, just to name a few. My connections tell me these horses didnt come back very well. And all this is just this week.

When will the destruction end?







When he stops claiming horses he cant improve thats when it stops. He keeps taking off the good trainers and thats a recipe for disaster.

[MaryAinMI]

Yeah, go ahead and blame it on the track. This has nothing do with Michael Gill. How about a Polytrack? That will solve everything.

Who said it has nothing to do with Mike Gill? Who said it has everything to do with the track? The problem is, no one knows. No one takes the time or has the official ability or whatever to get the answer each and every time a horse goes down. Sometimes the reason seems obvious (e.g., Mighty Beau). Sometimes a group of factors look to have been involved. Sometimes it doesn't make sense at all.

[MaryAinMI]

No as my jockey just mentioned the fast part of the track and the dead part of the track he isn't obligated nor am I to tell the track maintenance crew anything unless he feels his life or the horse's is threatened by a major track flaw. And furthermore this has nothing to do with horses going down as none did the day I raced there.

Wait a minute - I thought YOU were the one who suggested there was maybe a problem with the track, whether or not any horses went down the day you ran. I'm not trying to give you a hard time. Of course no one is obligated to tell track management. But I would think someone like you who heard what your jockey said would WANT to tell track management there may be a problem. Because that is good for racing in general.

I don't try to re-home retired racehorses because I am obligated to do it. I do it because I think they are great animals and have a lot to offer after racing (I have an OTTB myself who is great!) and because it is good for the horses and their post-retirement welfare.

If we want racing better, don't we all want to step up to the plate where and when we can??

[onefast99]

Wait a minute - I thought YOU were the one who suggested there was maybe a problem with the track, whether or not any horses went down the day you ran. I'm not trying to give you a hard time. Of course no one is obligated to tell track management. But I would think someone like you who heard what your jockey said would WANT to tell track management there may be a problem. Because that is good for racing in general.

I don't try to re-home retired racehorses because I am obligated to do it. I do it because I think they are great animals and have a lot to offer after racing (I have an OTTB myself who is great!) and because it is good for the horses and their post-retirement welfare.

If we want racing better, don't we all want to step up to the plate where and when we can??
I am not qualified to make a visual judgement of the racing surface and comment on it to the track management. My comment was that the track wasn't in the greatest of shape not that it was "unsafe". solely based on what my jockey told me.

[MaryAinMI]

I am not qualified to make a visual judgement of the racing surface and comment on it to the track management. My comment was that the track wasn't in the greatest of shape not that it was "unsafe". solely based on what my jockey told me.

And I'm not qualified to tell if a horse is sore or otherwise unwise to run. That doesn't keep me from calling a track's steward and telling him my concerns, based on what I have seen in the past and what I have recently heard and to say to him, "I would really appreciate it if you would do what you can to make sure this horse is fit to run."

Sigh ...

No, it's not that you aren't qualified. It's that you choose not to bother. Or that you choose not to put yourself in a position where other owners or trainers will look askance at you. Or that you choose not to take the chance of being labeled a troublemaker. Or whatever.

So you - seriously - don't express an opinion on things that you are not absolutely qualified to make a judgement on?

Racing will change for the better when the people that are in racing decide they can do more than just say, "It's not my problem."

I'm sorry, onefast. It sounds like I'm going after you, and I'm really, really not. You just got in the way of my frustrations with racing. I apologize.

You said in an earlier post: "Are you saying that Gill was the only one to have breakdowns at PP? The track isn't in the greatest of shape we raced there last week and our jock told us the rail was dead and the middle of the track was as hard as it gets." The clear implication was that your (unqualified) opinion was that the track might be a problem, too. Wouldn't hurt to mention that to people who might be able to fix the situation, would it? They might tell you the track is fine. Or they might say, "We'll take a look and let you know what we think."

Just my opinion.

[onefast99]

And I'm not qualified to tell if a horse is sore or otherwise unwise to run. That doesn't keep me from calling a track's steward and telling him my concerns, based on what I have seen in the past and what I have recently heard and to say to him, "I would really appreciate it if you would do what you can to make sure this horse is fit to run."

Sigh ...

No, it's not that you aren't qualified. It's that you choose not to bother. Or that you choose not to put yourself in a position where other owners or trainers will look askance at you. Or that you choose not to take the chance of being labeled a troublemaker. Or whatever.

So you - seriously - don't express an opinion on things that you are not absolutely qualified to make a judgement on?

Racing will change for the better when the people that are in racing decide they can do more than just say, "It's not my problem."

I'm sorry, onefast. It sounds like I'm going after you, and I'm really, really not. You just got in the way of my frustrations with racing. I apologize.

You said in an earlier post: "Are you saying that Gill was the only one to have breakdowns at PP? The track isn't in the greatest of shape we raced there last week and our jock told us the rail was dead and the middle of the track was as hard as it gets." The clear implication was that your (unqualified) opinion was that the track might be a problem, too. Wouldn't hurt to mention that to people who might be able to fix the situation, would it? They might tell you the track is fine. Or they might say, "We'll take a look and let you know what we think."

Just my opinion.
I never said that the track had any "problem", you made that inference. I just asked if based on some of Gill's horses being injured or breaking down if others had also been injured or broke down or to put it in an easy to read statement is it just Gill or others? You have totally missed the point here, the track had a bias like every race track in the world does, the racing office or stewards would get a real chuckle hearing from an owner or trainer that the track is playing fast today and oh by the way the rail is dead and the middle of the track is very fast. Yes I am sure they will harrow the track extra hard between races to make sure it plays 100% even. Stick to the retirement stuff we need that more in racing today then worrying about a track bias.

[onefast99]

I am not qualified to make a visual judgement of the racing surface and comment on it to the track management. My comment was that the track wasn't in the greatest of shape not that it was "unsafe". solely based on what my jockey told me.
Hey Mary, read this again and spin it please. thanks.

[WinterTriangle]

When you guys say "good for racing", are you talking about the business aspect only? The tracks want him, and the bettors want him. But "Good for racing", to me, is that which is good for the horses. It has to start there, and then flow outwards.
I am going to seek the opinions of some equine vets on whether the practice of giving "every" horse that comes into your barn a myectomy. :eek: That doesn't sound quite right.......who would consider this an industry-standard practice?


Based on my reading (I do not know the man), I can only say that the thoroughbred rescue, retirement, and also auction sectors seem to have a poor opinion of him. This is not a good sign to me. "horsepeople" seem to think he's one of the bad guys, but gambers and track bean counters love him.

I guess my question is: Does this trainer have a love and appreciation for the *horse*.......other than just profitability. One of the reasons I respect Nick Zito for what he's done thru his Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation, and because it pained him that anyone might be "eating" Strike the Gold for dinner.

[WinterTriangle]

maggi moss runs many horses all over the place. they all look good to me. she is a great model for the game. she has plenty that run on the bottom and she treats them the same as the ones that are running for higher purses.

I liked her editorial:
http://www.drf.com/news/article/101258.html

She puts her money where her mouth is, and is encouraging others in the industry that to be profitable and viable, one has to be "mindful of our own responsibilities." (to the horses).

[Citation1947]

When you guys say "good for racing", are you talking about the business aspect only? The tracks want him, and the bettors want him.

Based on my reading (I do not know the man), I can only say that the thoroughbred rescue, retirement, and also auction sectors seem to have a poor opinion of him. This is not a good sign to me. "horsepeople" seem to think he's one of the bad guys, but gambers and track bean counters love him.
[/url]

Actually the tracks really dont want him either.



I guess my question is: Does this trainer have a love and appreciation for the *horse*.......other than just profitability.
[url="http://www.drf.com/news/article/101258.html"] (http://www.drf.com/news/article/101258.html)

Simple answer....NO!

[lamboguy]

i brought up a fact, a horse ran 3 times in 19 days, each time worse than the last time even after a class drop. obviously the horse did not look sore to the state vet in his very short examination of the horse before the race. but that does not mean that the horse wasn't sore. it just means it got by the quick examination.

this is the way the racing industry operates. when a horse has poor performances no one cares. from what i can see the racing handles have been on a steady decline in the united states, while its been up all over the world that have better backdrops in place.

the people in charge in the racing business constanly turn their backs on controversial issues. if their paychecks were 5 minutes late they would have you arrested.i borught this up over a month ago, these are things i see with my own 2 eyes. what we have here is sore horses in april and breakdowns in may and june. friesen fire, bad work on monday, terrible race on saturday, dunkirk same thing. if i can see these things on television sitting in my room, why can't the people that get paid to police the sport be so blind? unfortuantely i do have the answer to that one and it really stinks. you see these people get paid to underperform on their stupid jobs, and are afraid to rock the boat. they are afraid to rock the boat because they will be fired from their useless jobs.

[onefast99]

i borught this up over a month ago, these are things i see with my own 2 eyes. what we have here is sore horses in april and breakdowns in may and june. friesen fire, bad work on monday, terrible race on saturday, dunkirk same thing. if i can see these things on television sitting in my room, why can't the people that get paid to police the sport be so blind? unfortuantely i do have the answer to that one and it really stinks. you see these people get paid to underperform on their stupid jobs, and are afraid to rock the boat. they are afraid to rock the boat because they will be fired from their useless jobs.
You mean they are afraid of losing the perks that go with the job?

[Mineshaft]

Another one broke down in the 5th at Penn tonite

[lamboguy]

Another one broke down in the 5th at Penn tonitei like you alot mineshaft. but you just made me sick to my stomach. i missed that race and i am glad i did. what this comes down to is that it really doesn't matter who's horse broke down. no break down is good for this game. this guy just had 5 break downs in less than a week at the same track. this is the same track that swindled its customers out of their money 3 weeks ago. what i am saying is that the people that run penn national don't care about life in general. they don't care about the horse, and they could care less about the rider on top of the horse. they probably want to see more breakdowns and tell you how bad the horse racing is and how great slot machines are. i hope that whoever reads this understands the points that i am bringing across. i noticed $27,000 win pools today in monmouth, i saw less than $100k win pools in belmont. i hope steve christ reads this post as well and goes after these guys.

[Mineshaft]

i like you alot mineshaft. but you just made me sick to my stomach. i missed that race and i am glad i did. what this comes down to is that it really doesn't matter who's horse broke down. no break down is good for this game. this guy just had 5 break downs in less than a week at the same track. this is the same track that swindled its customers out of their money 3 weeks ago. what i am saying is that the people that run penn national don't care about life in general. they don't care about the horse, and they could care less about the rider on top of the horse. they probably want to see more breakdowns and tell you how bad the horse racing is and how great slot machines are. i hope that whoever reads this understands the points that i am bringing across. i noticed $27,000 win pools today in monmouth, i saw less than $100k win pools in belmont. i hope steve christ reads this post as well and goes after these guys.







Either

1-The track is bad at Penn or

2-Gill is doing no vet work on these horses


I would lean to no vet work because too many of his horses are not coming back.

[macguy]

Either

1-The track is bad at Penn or

2-Gill is doing no vet work on these horses


I would lean to no vet work because too many of his horses are not coming back.

Perhaps too much vet work and no training... :mad:

[Imriledup]

Wow, thirteen thousand views on Michael Gill.

Last i heard of him he got out of the business a few years ago because they were 'picking on him' or something like that.