Another bailout?

[Tom]

Now Pelosi and Reid want to hand over billions of our dollars to bail our Ford and GM, two losers. They incorrectly say we need Ford and Gm for our economy, but what we really need is a strong auto industry, not GM or Ford.
Both have run their business like morons for decades and dug the hole they are in now. They have been very un-American corporations, outsourcing jobs, closing factories and building new ones in Canada and Mexico as well as the rest o the world. Look at the mess that is Detorit and thank them. Much of Detorit looks like the lime trail left beind a sail as GM and Ford destroyed neighborhoods and oozed themsleves North. They both knew in the 70's that gasoline prices could destroy thier buseinss and did very little about it. They were both caught with their corporate pants down when gas started going up last year. They have not cared about America for decaded, now come crawling looking to leech of the national teets.

This is a golden time to put both of them in their place and help our economy.

1. Loan them the money with strings attached.
2. No salaries or bonuses to anyone at corporate level. If they leave, they leave now, with nothing.
3. No cars made in Mexico or Canada can be sold in the states - only in the country where they were made.
4. By next model year, 60% of all components must be made in the USA, by the following model year, 100% must be made in the 50 states.
5. No plant closings will be allowed. All Union contracts are null and void and all workers will earn set salaries that are fair by local standards.
6. No dividends will be paid out until every cent is repaid.
7. All pension and health care benefits of retirees must be honored

Any other ideas?

[Burls]

There's definitely got to be major strings attached before any money goes Detroit's way.
I would even insist that a certain amount of money would have to go towards research and strategic retooling so that the plants could start producing cars that people would actually buy.
The age of the gas guzzling SUV is definitely OVER.

[exactaplayer]

Now Pelosi and Reid want to hand over billions of our dollars to bail our Ford and GM, two losers. They incorrectly say we need Ford and Gm for our economy, but what we really need is a strong auto industry, not GM or Ford.
Both have run their business like morons for decades and dug the hole they are in now. They have been very un-American corporations, outsourcing jobs, closing factories and building new ones in Canada and Mexico as well as the rest o the world. Look at the mess that is Detorit and thank them. Much of Detorit looks like the lime trail left beind a sail as GM and Ford destroyed neighborhoods and oozed themsleves North. They both knew in the 70's that gasoline prices could destroy thier buseinss and did very little about it. They were both caught with their corporate pants down when gas started going up last year. They have not cared about America for decaded, now come crawling looking to leech of the national teets.

This is a golden time to put both of them in their place and help our economy.

1. Loan them the money with strings attached.
2. No salaries or bonuses to anyone at corporate level. If they leave, they leave now, with nothing.
3. No cars made in Mexico or Canada can be sold in the states - only in the country where they were made.
4. By next model year, 60% of all components must be made in the USA, by the following model year, 100% must be made in the 50 states.
5. No plant closings will be allowed. All Union contracts are null and void and all workers will earn set salaries that are fair by local standards.
6. No dividends will be paid out until every cent is repaid.
7. All pension and health care benefits of retirees must be honored

Any other ideas?
These rules would be the final nail in the coffin for GM and Ford. Abiding by them would eliminate any chance of competing with the foreign based manufactures.

[Tom]

Then we use the bail out money as seed money for people who can do better.

[HUSKER55]

wHY ARE WE BAILING OUT CORPORATIONS WHEN THEY DON'T BAIL OUT THEIR COUNTRYMEN?


They say they need help but they take jobs overseas. I say screw em.

[prospector]

i read somewhere that if they get the bailout, most of it will go to what they owe to the employees benefits...
unions got them in this..
how about 50% reduction in all benefits for employees..all of them, management included..
25% reduction in salaries for all..and a wage freeze till the bailout is paid back..
paying back is the key...it is not a giveaway!

[boxcar]

These rules would be the final nail in the coffin for GM and Ford. Abiding by them would eliminate any chance of competing with the foreign based manufactures.

Hey, when you can't compete, you close up shop. Plain and simple.

Once again, we have the wanna-be know-it-all State as the root cause to this problem. The gov's taxing rules forced these big businesses to go outside the country in order to compete. Between the Income Tax and the Central Banking system, this nation doesn't stand a chance for economic survival. Is it any wonder, so many third-worldish countries now love us? They know that soon we will fall to their economic level -- all in the name of progress, of course. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[Burls]

Look at it this way.
America has got to start addressing its balance of trade deficit or its currency won't be worth toilet paper.
It's also go to start addressing spiralling unemployment.
In the short term, it makes sense for the Federal Government to finance some changes in Detroit.
The factories are already there.
So are the workers.
But this Federal Government financing cannot be a gift to be squandered.
That will just put the US in an even deeper hole.
All money lent has to be paid back and it has to result in the manufacturing of products that are sold for profit.
Whatever changes in Detroit that are necessary to achieve this goal are potentially justifiable.
That means neither workers nor management can stubbornly insist on special privileges here.
That's got to be the terms of any Federal financing in Detroit.

[jonnielu]

Look at it this way.
America has got to start addressing its balance of trade deficit or its currency won't be worth toilet paper.
It's also go to start addressing spiralling unemployment.
In the short term, it makes sense for the Federal Government to finance some changes in Detroit.
The factories are already there.
So are the workers.
But this Federal Government financing cannot be a gift to be squandered.
That will just put the US in an even deeper hole.
All money lent has to be paid back and it has to result in the manufacturing of products that are sold for profit.
Whatever changes in Detroit that are necessary to achieve this goal are potentially justifiable.
That means neither workers nor management can stubbornly insist on special privileges here.
That's got to be the terms of any Federal financing in Detroit.

James Madison once made note that he could not lay his finger on that section of the Constitution that provides for charity.

Have you or Pelosi make some sort of discovery?

jdl

[Burls]

James Madison once made note that he could not lay his finger on that section of the Constitution that provides for charity.

Have you or Pelosi make some sort of discovery?

jdl
Question 1: Is an administration in the 21st century obligated to justify every policy decision it makes by referring to some section of a document that is over 200 years old? If so why?
Question 2: Who ever said anything about charity? A properly strategized program of Federal funding would be the government acting in the interest of the entire country. The same holds for any properly strategized bailouts of Financial firms or for any properly strategized future stimulus packages. The justification for any of these steps is that it would stabilize and promote growth of the American economy. That is a goal that everyone has an interest in promoting. It's America helping itself; not America giving charity.

[LottaKash]

This must occur before Big Brother can work his magic....piece by piece, and inch by inch, stealthily we roll along, toward that end........

best,

[boxcar]

James Madison once made note that he could not lay his finger on that section of the Constitution that provides for charity.

Have you or Pelosi make some sort of discovery?

jdl

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[exactaplayer]

i read somewhere that if they get the bailout, most of it will go to what they owe to the employees benefits...
unions got them in this..
how about 50% reduction in all benefits for employees..all of them, management included..
25% reduction in salaries for all..and a wage freeze till the bailout is paid back..
paying back is the key...it is not a giveaway!
Keep in mind that your personal benefits, salary/wage will maintain the same ratio with the auto industry employees as it now has. So you are, in effect seeking a decrease in your benefits, wages and so on.

[prospector]

Keep in mind that your personal benefits, salary/wage will maintain the same ratio with the auto industry employees as it now has. So you are, in effect seeking a decrease in your benefits, wages and so on.
its that same ratio that took the company down...reduce them and reorganize..
if any company can't pay its bills, it doesn't deserve to survive..

[Tom]

The new dollars we will be printing to cover the spending will look like this.....

[HUSKER55]

It is my understanding that this bailout money is money our government is going to print. If the government does not take currency out of the market then we are on a collision course with destiny.

If the dollar had more value debt would be less. Where does the currency come out of the market place?

[Burls]

It is my understanding that this bailout money is money our government is going to print. If the government does not take currency out of the market then we are on a collision course with destiny.

If the dollar had more value debt would be less. Where does the currency come out of the market place?This is why I was saying that the bailout has to be strategized so that it results in the production of some actual goods that are sold for profit. That way the money is paid back and actual, tangible wealth in the form of marketable goods is created as a result of the strategic bailout.

[exactaplayer]

its that same ratio that took the company down...reduce them and reorganize..
if any company can't pay its bills, it doesn't deserve to survive..
Your willingness to accept lower wages and benefits to help save an American industry will be considered commendable in some circles. Thank you

[HUSKER55]

is there anybody our government won't bailout? These guys are pirates at bare minimum. They took jobs overseas so Americans had less money to buy, they took advantage of trade agreemnts, tariffs, trade zones and who knows what else and then they screwed all of that into oblivion and now complain that they can't make it.

Let them bastards go under. Let them loose everything they have. What do you want to bet that "a miracle" happens.

If Obama falls for this, he is dumber than Bush, if that is possible. These guys are going to knife whoever they can however they can. You just watch.

You are dealing with a car salesman.

Just Say NO

[JustRalph]

The CEO at GM makes 40k a day.

He sent jobs overseas..........

very hard for me to be sympathetic

[Burls]

The CEO at GM makes 40k a day.

He sent jobs overseas..........

very hard for me to be sympatheticIt sounds like one of the properly strategized bailout conditions would be that he has to go.
Or, he can stay on at 40K a YEAR.

[HUSKER55]

Burl, I like your thinking. $40,000 per YEAR for a CEO of a failed corp that recieves bailout money. :ThmbUp:

[Tom]

OK, AIG asked for another 40 billion....do you know WHERE they were when they asked?
At yet another million dollar party on our tax dollars, at a posh resort under secrecy. No AIG logs anywhere, employees not allowed to mention the name AIG.

And our POS Sec of the Treasury just assumes the "Monica position" and hands it over. This needs to be prosecuted at least. What a disgusting. Anti-American government we have. Is it time for vigilante justice in the streets? This group, along with Congress and the WH has cost us more than Osama Bin Laden.....who are the REAL terrorist here?

[LottaKash]

has cost us more than Osama Bin Laden.....who are the REAL terrorists here?

Bingo......:eek:....step step & inch by inch

best,

[ddog]

so, the chickens were already at home?


this whole tarp crap is as i always thought a thinly disguised fascist money scheme.

gang rape of the taxpayers , nothing less.

I see now where berny and pauly won't even disclose who or what exactly they are "loaning" our paper out for.

I have a dead dog in the backyard , can i pledge that as backing for some tarp action, what! , why not???

Of course all this stuff that smells so bad they don't dare bring it out of the basement is just worth tons of bucs right, they can sell it to "sterilize" all this debt, yeah really they can , just watch.

The reason they can't tel YOU what they are loaing YOUR money aginst is that if they did you and everyone else would realize it isn't worth 10 cents on the dollar and thus goldmansucks and all the other "counterparties" are just as bust as AIG,etc.

What a scam , what a country,NOT!

:ThmbDown:

[Hank]

OK, AIG asked for another 40 billion....do you know WHERE they were when they asked?
At yet another million dollar party on our tax dollars, at a posh resort under secrecy. No AIG logs anywhere, employees not allowed to mention the name AIG.

And our POS Sec of the Treasury just assumes the "Monica position" and hands it over. This needs to be prosecuted at least. What a disgusting. Anti-American government we have. Is it time for vigilante justice in the streets? This group, along with Congress and the WH has cost us more than Osama Bin Laden.....who are the REAL terrorist here?

I will now go into self imposed exile and will consume bread and water only for 30 days because I AGREE with Tom:( .

[prospector]

this year i will not be selling my gold...i'll keep it, may need it..

[Richie]

simply, put them in bankruptcy, reorganize, and get rid of the unions, who by the way killed the auto industry

[JustRalph]

I heard an interesting discussion on radio today about letting GM die. Thus killing the unions. The guest was talking about how Honda and Toyota are hoping it happens so they can buy up GM or Ford and "start over" with the GM or Ford Assets.

Two hours later I was in a Chevy Dealer scoping out what kind of deals they are really offering. The Sales manager told me that GM has told its dealer network that Pelosi won't let them die. She has already committed to saving the Big 3 and most importantly the UAW

The deals weren't big enough for me yet.......... 11k off sticker on a New Tahoe Denali..........they can keep it. I can wait.

Gas today at 2.18 in Charlotte

[highnote]

In a few years, where are you going to get spare parts on a new American car?

By the way, the GM 8.7% bonds can be bought for 25 cents on the dollar for an effective annual return of 37.5%. They were 80 cents last year.

Question is, will they stay in business long enough to pay off?

[ddog]

bad news for the sales mgr, they may bail out some part of the 3 but tons of those dealers are toast.

they won't be coming along for the ride.

[HUSKER55]

It was my understanding that the bailout was to pay operating expenses and to keep the company afloat. The auto companies burn cash around $7b per month.


What happens in 6 months to a year? One of the analysts said that these factories had not retooled to make lighter, more efficient cars and the big luxury models could not compete in the global market.

Assume that guy was telling the truth. What in the world are we buying into?
Perhaps letting them go under and start over might be the best deal for us poor civilians

[Boris]

bad news for the sales mgr, they may bail out some part of the 3 but tons of those dealers are toast.

Can I have Jill?

[Tom]

Pelosi is only concerned with the unions, not the economy or the companies.

[ArlJim78]

I don't know how these people aren't indicted for fraud. seriously.

now it turns out that they aren't going to use the bailout to buy up all the toxic debt that they said was clogging up the system.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122650321703420903.html

At the same time, Treasury is unlikely to conduct any auctions to purchase bad loans and other troubled assets -- the original intention of the $700 billion rescue plan. Instead, Treasury is expected to continue focusing its firepower on injecting capital directly into the financial sector, these people said.

"Our assessment at this time is that this is not the most effective way to use TARP funds, but we will continue to examine whether targeted forms of asset purchase can play a useful role, relative to other potential uses of TARP resources, in helping to strengthen our financial system and support lending," he said, according to his prepared remarks.

this whole treasury scam was the October surprise. i knew it was based on the way Pelosi and the democrats were so gleeful to hang this on Republicans. trust me, the whole bailout scareoff was based on politics!
the crimes perpetrated on the US taxpayer this year exceed anything in history.

[HUSKER55]

You guys need to watch that stock market channel tonight. Would you believe the CEO's what to use the bailout money to pay bills and use their own money to pay bonuses?

You gotta watch this. It is unreal.

[prospector]

You guys need to watch that stock market channel tonight. Would you believe the CEO's what to use the bailout money to pay bills and use their own money to pay bonuses?

You gotta watch this. It is unreal.
i watch cavuto faithfully everyday...what channel are you referring to?

[ddog]

as to the toxic debt they were talking about that was not POSSIBLE.

Not only can't they do it, they and nobody KNOWS what or where it is parked.

I don't mind them coming to reality although late.

As to the dims, that's beyond laughable, Bush and Paulson and Bernake called the DIm and Pug to the come to jesus meeting to tell them it was the end of the world.

I said at the time it wasn't and that what we needed was to let things play out a bit and calm down , but they riled up the world and well , no matter what from here on out ,they have NOT helped anything.

Assets and everything else will find their own level , they and no other country are going to stop that.
There are time to not do anything, until you have a real good understanding of what it is you want to accomplish and how.

They didn't.
It was obvious.
They speak of confidence, they do not inspire it.



Work the stuff out through Ch11 or whatever , it was a bubble for all times and it isn't going to be worked out in 6 months.

[Tom]

This is what you get when the politicians (Obama, McCain, Bush, Pelosi, Reid) stand there and lie to our faces and tell us this is so important we need to act today.


BS

GD all five of those traitors.

[Secretariat]

The amount of money given away to the financial sector especially AIG makes it a tough sell NOT to help out the Big Three especially in lieu of our manufacturing sector totally going abroad.

Unlike some here I don't think the answer is as simple as letting them fail.

If they fail and don't get the benefit of any bailout what are:

1. The issues facing our national security with no national manufacturing automobile companies.

2. What will unemployment jump too as a result of these massive layoffs that will ensue?

3. Will the lack of competition spike automoble prices from foreign competitors leading to an increase in the cost of cars and trucks?

4. What will happen to consumers who own these products in terms of spare parts and current warranties?

I'm not sure what the ramficiation are of letting the Big Three collapse as opposed to AIG which was considered too big to collapse, but it will be a tough sell to an American public that watches an American institution falter with no action while trillions are leaped on the financial sector. And will the government help pay forl those blue collar assembly line workers to retrain for their new jobs?

I just hope the Big Three lasts until next year.

[ddog]

Sec

I think a Ch11 with a little bail up front is the only way to go.

They have to do something about all the pension/med costs they are on the hook for.

I think somehow and I HATE to say this , that we , the gvt have to move those over to the Fed ledger.

I think Chrysler should be let go and or help GM to merge them into the CH11 outcome.

Lots of models need to go away and plants close.

It's a mess, but I think we have to try to bail them out.

Frankly , I would rather see all the 700B go to Gm and/or Ford than anywhere else, even though it will probably be pissed away just as it is now.

No good choices I can see on this deal.

[Tom]

Sec, we need the industry, not the companies.
What possible outcomes do you foresee if we throw billions at them with no plan in place not to go broke again?

[prospector]

Sec, we need the industry, not the companies.
What possible outcomes do you foresee if we throw billions at them with no plan in place not to go broke again?
honda and toyta are profitable..they make cars in the U.S....they don't have the union hangups and still pay decent wages without the union shakedowns..
i'm against giving the big 3 a bailout that is going to the union benefits...let the union pay outta their funds..

[JustRalph]

How about this for a bailout.

Close Chrysler. They deserve it for hiring Nardelli.

Ford goes to Honda and GM to Toyota.

Bailout done. The only ones shutting down will be UAW offices.

[ddog]

toy and hon want nothing to do with them in their present form.
the unfunded pension/medical stuff they are on the hook for would not fly in a deal like that.
that's where some sort of bail-funding comes in.

you have to fix that or they are not stupid enough to pick it up.

you can't just drop it as you would kill tons of people that are already relying on it that are not current workers-those workers are going to take a haircut no matter what.
bonds will get killed.
cdo-cds would explode the losses, you have no idea how much is written and don't want to find out via gvt payouts on them i suspect.


at least that's what i seem to see.

[witchdoctor]

I read somewhere that if GM and Ford go under, Honda and Nissan will buy them up in a fire sale. That will bust the unions, therefore our democratic congress will not let that happen. :bang:

[Tom]

Another dem scare tactic.....the market will always b there, and the closing of any automaker will be absorbed by the others. Like Ralph says, the key will be the UAW anchor will be cut loose and profits will roll. Probably create more jobs for suppliers, too, as the transplant recognize the value of sourcing locally. I would gues the clsing of Ford and/or GM would turn out to a benefit tot he economy and America. Now, allthose Union boys that will be froced to worl for ensible eages, think op if as spreading the wealth around. Other workers will prosper. :lol:

[witchdoctor]

Another dem scare tactic.....the market will always b there, and the closing of any automaker will be absorbed by the others. Like Ralph says, the key will be the UAW anchor will be cut loose and profits will roll. Probably create more jobs for suppliers, too, as the transplant recognize the value of sourcing locally. I would gues the clsing of Ford and/or GM would turn out to a benefit tot he economy and America. Now, allthose Union boys that will be froced to worl for ensible eages, think op if as spreading the wealth around. Other workers will prosper. :lol:


That won't happen. The UAW will tell PIg Low Ski and her ilk how to vote.

[ddog]

funny to see class envy from the same righties that are all for tax cuts.

well what's the diff between a tax raise and a wage cut?

as to Ford , they have cash to go through 2010 or so and have strong overseas ops, i don't think they are going down.

as to GM, you are not even on the planet, there is no reason to not give the thing a short term bail to give them a chance to re-org via CH11.

They have plenty of assets and are still selling cars.

If people can be assured via the workout that they are coming out leaner and ready to roll they will do fine and gvt will not lose a dime.

It's a no brainer if you have one.

[ddog]

Another dem scare tactic.....the market will always b there, and the closing of any automaker will be absorbed by the others. Like Ralph says, the key will be the UAW anchor will be cut loose and profits will roll. Probably create more jobs for suppliers, too, as the transplant recognize the value of sourcing locally. I would gues the clsing of Ford and/or GM would turn out to a benefit tot he economy and America. Now, allthose Union boys that will be froced to worl for ensible eages, think op if as spreading the wealth around. Other workers will prosper. :lol:


no matter , but rooting for others to become poorer doesn't help you , maybe you like the feeling , but it's not going to help.

sensible wages, funny , how central planning of you.
A socialist would be wanting to set the wages of others as you seem to wish here.

[Valuist]

TARP stands for:

Total
Asswipe
Reactionary
Policy