Fair Grounds

[rrbauer]

FG opens November 14. Does anyone know ADW status?

[NoCal Boy]

It is being worked on now as I understand it. It will be interesting to see if Louisiana horsemen insist on open access as they have with LA Downs and Delta Downs, and I believe there will be no more exclusivity at Evangeline thoroughbred meet as well. We will know very soon.

BTW, Youbet now has Retama Park as well starting tomorrow.

[raybo]

I know BetPad.com isn't covering FG. They are covering DeD and EvD, however. EvD is telephone only, no online wagering yet.

[ranchwest]

I know BetPad.com isn't covering FG. They are covering DeD and EvD, however. EvD is telephone only, no online wagering yet.

Insanity. I'm on BetPad and FG is my favorite meet. If the available tracks changes every season, why bet on horses?

[raybo]

Insanity. I'm on BetPad and FG is my favorite meet. If the available tracks changes every season, why bet on horses?

Yeah, these signal wars suck. My 2 most profitable tracks, EvD and Hou, aren't bettable online now. Houston has cancelled their meet because of the hurricane damage and Evangeline is a "telephone only" proposition, which makes getting your wagers in at 1 minute to post or less, difficult.

I corresponded with the track manager for EvD earlier in the year and was told that when the current TVG contract expired they would not be renewing that contract and would return to free access for their signal. Maybe they are still working on that, we'll see.

Concerning FG, I haven't any information on that one as I don't wager there.

[Wickel]

I need some clarification from someone. Being a longtime associate of Brisbet, I always figured that BetPad was now a branch of Twin Spires and CDI. But BetPad's thoroughbred racing menu has increasingly shrunk in the last few months, including several major meets that are still carried Spires. So my question: Is BetPad now an independent ADW? And if it is, is it making any effort to negotiate with these rogue tracks?

My second question is: What precludes an ADW that offers phone wagering on a track to offering online wagering? Can't figure this one out.

Wickel

[startngate]

I need some clarification from someone. Being a longtime associate of Brisbet, I always figured that BetPad was now a branch of Twin Spires and CDI. But BetPad's thoroughbred racing menu has increasingly shrunk in the last few months, including several major meets that are still carried Spires. So my question: Is BetPad now an independent ADW? And if it is, is it making any effort to negotiate with these rogue tracks?

My second question is: What precludes an ADW that offers phone wagering on a track to offering online wagering? Can't figure this one out.

WickelYes. BetPad is a stand alone ADW. If I remember correctly the (formerly) AmericaTab folks were allowed to form BetPad to take wagers from the States that TwinSpires does not operate in.

I'm not sure of the details, but they do have a seperate license in Oregon anyway.

http://racing.oregon.gov/RACING/docs/oregon_wagering_hubs.doc

I don't live in a State they cover, so I can't speak to their track menus.

Telephone only wagering is usually indicitive of a TVG exclusive track, where the ADW does not have a deal with TVG. Those ADW's can usually take telephone only wagering from States where TVG doesn't do business.

[Wickel]

Thanks, Start. Very informative.

[raybo]

Yes. BetPad is a stand alone ADW. If I remember correctly the (formerly) AmericaTab folks were allowed to form BetPad to take wagers from the States that TwinSpires does not operate in.

I'm not sure of the details, but they do have a seperate license in Oregon anyway.

http://racing.oregon.gov/RACING/docs/oregon_wagering_hubs.doc

I don't live in a State they cover, so I can't speak to their track menus.

Telephone only wagering is usually indicitive of a TVG exclusive track, where the ADW does not have a deal with TVG. Those ADW's can usually take telephone only wagering from States where TVG doesn't do business.

All correct. I live in Texas and Twinspires won't take me as a member so BrisBet sent me to BetPad. And yes, BetPad can take phone wagers on TVG tracks but no online wagering on those tracks.

BetPad has been in negotiations with the tracks and TVG for months now. Still no agreement.

[GaryG]

A friend of mine that works for CDI tells me they expect to have FG on Twin Spires. Expecting a record meet....I am ready. :jump: :jump:

[NoCal Boy]

Louisiana is very proactive on the signals. Louisiana Downs and Delta Downs are open to all ADW's, and I believe Evangeline is ending its exclusivity with TVG after this quarter horse meet. I am hearing that Fair Grounds will also be available to Youbet for the first time in several years, in addition to Xpressbet and Twinspires and, if indeed true, would make Fair Grounds an even bigger winter signal.

If Fair Grounds does open up to the likes of Twinspires, Xpressbet and Youbet, the pressure on other horsemens groups to reconcile will be intense. An ADW can do quite well offering Fair Grounds, Aqueduct, Hawthorne, Tampa, Delta, Mountainner, Penn National, Turf Paradise, Oaklawn and a few others if the TOC/THG wants to continue to play games with the CA signals.

What are the odds that the Board of Directors of the TOC will allow Santa Anita's signal to be withheld simply to get a national deal? GOOD LUCK

A friend of mine that works for CDI tells me they expect to have FG on Twin Spires. Expecting a record meet....I am ready. :jump: :jump:

[DeanT]

If Fair Grounds does open up to the likes of Twinspires, Xpressbet and Youbet, the pressure on other horsemens groups to reconcile will be intense. An ADW can do quite well offering Fair Grounds, Aqueduct, Hawthorne, Tampa, Delta, Mountainner, Penn National, Turf Paradise, Oaklawn and a few others if the TOC/THG wants to continue to play games with the CA signals.


Good point. Horseplayers can learn to forget about six horse fields at SA in a hurry with the racing that is out there to choose from.

[NoCal Boy]

Next week could be the watershed moment for these signal issues if Fair Grounds is indeed available to the major ADW's, including Youbet, XB and TS. Hard to figure if TVG is involved as they are not carrying Delta Downs. But the idea of a model national agreement pursued by the THG falls apart if a major signal like Fair Grounds becomes available to the ADW's. I have been informed firsthand by a very senior person with the LA HBPA that it will be available, but I want to see the official announcement that I am told should be coming early next week.

Good point. Horseplayers can learn to forget about six horse fields at SA in a hurry with the racing that is out there to choose from.

[rrbauer]

Next week could be the watershed moment for these signal issues if Fair Grounds is indeed available to the major ADW's, including Youbet, XB and TS. Hard to figure if TVG is involved as they are not carrying Delta Downs. But the idea of a model national agreement pursued by the THG falls apart if a major signal like Fair Grounds becomes available to the ADW's. I have been informed firsthand by a very senior person with the LA HBPA that it will be available, but I want to see the official announcement that I am told should be coming early next week.

The major flaw in all of this is that you expect a logical conclusion. At the moment chaos reigns.

[Charlie D]

Only a couple of days to opening day, but there does not seem to be any news regarding who has Fair Ground signal and who has not


Have FG forgot about the customers too??

[raybo]

Only a couple of days to opening day, but there does not seem to be any news regarding who has Fair Ground signal and who has not


Have FG forgot about the customers too??

Has anyone contacted the track, like HANA perhaps?

[Charlie D]

Has anyone contacted the track, like HANA perhaps?


a good idea raybo


Any chance of a HANA rep going active on this on behalf of it's members and other interested parties???

[miesque]

I will try to find out some info and report back.

[Charlie D]

I will try to find out some info and report back.


Thank you miesque

[schweitz]

I know BetPad.com isn't covering FG. They are covering DeD and EvD, however. EvD is telephone only, no online wagering yet.


Raybo, BetPad has Fair Grounds on the schedule for opening day.

[GaryG]

Raybo, BetPad has Fair Grounds on the schedule for opening day.So does Twinspires.

[raybo]

Raybo, BetPad has Fair Grounds on the schedule for opening day.

Very cool, it wasn't listed the other day when I checked it.

Thanks for the info!

[titans1127]

Xpressbet has it on their schedule as well.

[highnote]

Has anyone contacted the track, like HANA perhaps?


Every player should empower him/herself to contact the track and make a post here on PA about what they found out. :ThmbUp: We're all in this together and the more we contact the tracks with our concerns the more likely they will address them.

[raybo]

Every player should empower him/herself to contact the track and make a post here on PA about what they found out. :ThmbUp: We're all in this together and the more we contact the tracks with our concerns the more likely they will address them.

Agreed.

[Southieboy]

YB will carry FG, not sure about TVG

[rrbauer]

I emailed both the track and TS this morning. Haven't received a reply from either. Supposed to find out about Tampa by the end of the week.

FWIW

[NoCal Boy]

Major news that Fair Grounds will be on most ADW's, including Xpressbet, Twinspires and Youbet. FG is a major Tracknet track and Youbet having it is a major positive to hopefully opening up more signals. Youbet has not had Fair Grounds for at least 3 years. Imagine Oaklawn and Gulfstream are next up for Tracknet. Interesting that Youbet has it and it appears TVG does not. CDI is rumored to be interested in buying TVG, but then it makes no sense for TVG to be shut out of FG if that was indeed true. I guess we will know by Friday.



I emailed both the track and TS this morning. Haven't received a reply from either. Supposed to find out about Tampa by the end of the week.

FWIW

[rrbauer]

CDI is rumored to be interested in buying TVG, but then it makes no sense for TVG to be shut out of FG if that was indeed true. I guess we will know by Friday.

To potential buyers, is TVG worth more, or less, if it doesn't have FG? If CDI owns TVG they can turn on FG any time they want to.

[NoCal Boy]

Depends on the reasons why TVG does not carry FG. If CDI is preventing TVG from getting FG, and CDI is in negotiations to but TVG, then I do not see how that helps CDI in terms of purchase price at all. I do agree CDI makes sense as to a buyer, as does Youbet in some ways, but the outward statements and inferences being made by TVg and CDI seem to indicate otherwise.

TVG also does not carry Delta Downs.


To potential buyers, is TVG worth more, or less, if it doesn't have FG? If CDI owns TVG they can turn on FG any time they want to.

[rrbauer]

... but the outward statements and inferences being made by TVg and CDI seem to indicate otherwise.



Whatever that means. Are you taking lessons from jonnielu?

[rrbauer]

I emailed both the track and TS this morning. Haven't received a reply from either. Supposed to find out about Tampa by the end of the week.

FWIW

Update: According to my contact at TS, FG is a done-deal for Louisana residents only. They are "optimistic" that they can get a deal in place for the other states before Friday.

Will not know about Tampa until later in the month, after the HPBA board meets, based on info received today.

[Charlie D]

FG not on TVG/TRNI schedule, no news from Ian at PTC


Looks like it's another case of a select few ADW's getting signal


i'll be just playing Hawthorne by looks of it

[Charlie D]

BTW, i noticed this


After your 60-day free trial membership, and if you haven't earned a wagering credit, you'll need to choose the $10.95 or $17.95 Youbet.com subscription plan. We also offer discounts for multiple month plans. You can save up to 25%!


Subscription plan to bet????


No wonder no one is interested in US racing, It's pay through nose before you bet, then you have to deal with signal availability, then drug cheats etc, etc


:lol:

[NoCal Boy]

All one needs to do is wager something like $350 per month or $2500 per year to get free wagering, video, etc. from Youbet. I think Twinspires has something similar. Xpressbet might be fee free, but they are part of a near bankrupt company so the allure is not great. TVg has some other fee structure.

The ADW's make about 7-8% on an average wager before their operating expenses. At $2500 in total wagers per year, they only make about $200 in profit on the account. In all seriousness, you should pay for the service if you wager less than the bare minimums.


BTW, i noticed this




Subscription plan to bet????


No wonder no one is interested in US racing, It's pay through nose before you bet, then you have to deal with signal availability, then drug cheats etc, etc


:lol:

[Charlie D]

No cal

US racing model is a joke

We have dodgy stuff going on, but there is no wonder US is on 48 bucks per resident and places like UK is on 300+

[Southieboy]

Wagering on Lone Star Park begins Today.

Wagering on Fair Grounds will begin Friday, November 14th.

Please see our simulcast schedule for future post times.
http://www.twinspires.com/content/news/2008/11/12/lone-star-park-and-fair-grounds-available-twinspires

[miesque]

Sorry to take so long to followup on my previous post but its been crazy at the office and this pretty much just summarizes/confirms whats been recently posted. Since my e-mail to the communications and marketing director at the Fair Grounds from yesterday was never returned, I called the track this afternoon and finally got someone who very briefly informed me that the Louisiana HBPA only just approved the necessary agreements and that there weren't going to be any issues. That said, while I confirmed on the ADW side that the Fair Grounds is fully available on Twinspires, Xpressbet, BetPad.com and Youbet.com, it is not available on TVG.com or Premirer Turf Club which I understand to be a Tracknet issue for the later, not a horsemen (LA HBPA).

[Charlie D]

Sorry to take so long to followup on my previous post but its been crazy at the office and this pretty much just summarizes/confirms whats been recently posted. Since my e-mail to the communications and marketing director at the Fair Grounds from yesterday was never returned, I called the track this afternoon and finally got someone who very briefly informed me that the Louisiana HBPA only just approved the necessary agreements and that there weren't going to be any issues. That said, while I confirmed on the ADW side that the Fair Grounds is fully available on Twinspires, Xpressbet, BetPad.com and Youbet.com, it is not available on TVG.com or Premirer Turf Club which I understand to be a Tracknet issue for the later, not a horsemen (LA HBPA).


Cheers miesque

so horsemen are playing ball and no boycott here iyo???

[DeanT]

Sounds to me (just my opinion) is that the LA horse folks have taken a bit more of a cut but left the ADW system in place in somewhat the spirit it is intended.

[Charlie D]

It's looking that way Dean

I can play Hollywood no prob, but I want to support horsemen that play along with my betting friends across the pond


Cuoto and his mates can take a hike

[joeya]

Posted Wednesday at The Courier-Journal: (http://www.courier-journal.com/)

Churchill reaches revenue deal with Louisiana horsemen

Churchill Downs, Inc. announced a revenue-sharing agreement today with a Louisiana horsemen’s group that will make races from Churchill’s Fair Grounds Race Course & Slots available through most online and telephone wagering companies.

The Fair Grounds races, which begin Friday, will be available on national account wagering Web sites like Churchill’s TwinSpires, Magna Entertainment Corp.’s XpressBet, and Youbet. The races will not be available, however, through TVG.

“The Fair Grounds meet was also made available to TVG, which unfortunately declined to accept the signal under the terms negotiated and approved by Louisiana horsemen,” Churchill spokesman Kevin Flanery said in a statement.

Details of the agreement were not disclosed.

Horsemen in Louisiana and other states, including Kentucky, are pushing for a larger share of revenues from bets taken online and by telephone.

No agreement has been reached in Kentucky or Florida where horsemen’s groups are using their right under federal law to block those races from being made available to national account wagering companies.

[GaryG]

I just got an email from HRTV.....FG will be shown every day beginning tomorrow opening day.

[Wickel]

Wagering on Lone Star Park begins Today.

Wagering on Fair Grounds will begin Friday, November 14th.

Please see our simulcast schedule for future post times.
http://www.twinspires.com/content/news/2008/11/12/lone-star-park-and-fair-grounds-available-twinspires


Great news for both tracks. Twin Spires doesn't do business in New Mexico, so we are relegated to BetPad. I saw earlier that FG was listed on BetPad's racetrack menu for Friday, but nothing on Lone Star. Oddly, though, BetPad is now taking Retama, which is a Texas track. Hopefully, this mess is getting resolved.

[rrbauer]

PTC carried Louisana Downs so it has to be OK with Louisana HBPA.

Maybe Ian can give us an update...........

[trigger]

Sounds to me (just my opinion) is that the LA horse folks have taken a bit more of a cut but left the ADW system in place in somewhat the spirit it is intended.

Probably has something to do with slot money to purses at FG.

[DeanT]

Good point

[rrbauer]

The presence of slot subsidies for purses is a perfect opportunity for the industry to reduce takeout which in turn will increase handle which in turn will produce more handle-generated funds for purses AND more revenue for the tracks and racing associations. This is WIN-WIN at its finest.

Yet there appears to be jurisdictions that don't care squat about growing handle in spite of their purses being enhanced by slot subsidies. Look no farther than Delaware Park or the Pennsylvania tracks.

And, now, look at Fair Grounds: 25% takeout on "Pick" bets, Tri's and Super's. It's fine that they have stall applications for twice as many horses as they have stalls; and, it's fine that they have new outfits coming in to race this meet; and, it's fine that the slots-enriched purses are their highest ever....

BUT, what are are they doing for horseplayers?

Here's a tremendous opportunity for a track to reposition itself so that everybody benefits......will it do so?

[NoCal Boy]

Small steps. At least they are open to the major ADW's. In this environment, that means alot. Also, FG might be the domino that starts the rest falling on the signals. Namely, Oaklawn and the two Florida winter signals. Unless the horsemen withhold consent, hard to see where FG is open and the others restricted. Why would Oaklawn agree to that? Tampa is already open as an independent and Magna needs every dollar of handle at Gulfstream now that FG is open. If TVG comes along fine, but if not Youbet, TS and Xpressbet can handle it. Also, no reason for PTC not to have the signals.



The presence of slot subsidies for purses is a perfect opportunity for the industry to reduce takeout which in turn will increase handle which in turn will produce more handle-generated funds for purses AND more revenue for the tracks and racing associations. This is WIN-WIN at its finest.

Yet there appears to be jurisdictions that don't care squat about growing handle in spite of their purses being enhanced by slot subsidies. Look no farther than Delaware Park or the Pennsylvania tracks.

And, now, look at Fair Grounds: 25% takeout on "Pick" bets, Tri's and Super's. It's fine that they have stall applications for twice as many horses as they have stalls; and, it's fine that they have new outfits coming in to race this meet; and, it's fine that the slots-enriched purses are their highest ever....

BUT, what are are they doing for horseplayers?

Here's a tremendous opportunity for a track to reposition itself so that everybody benefits......will it do so?

[raybo]

Great news for both tracks. Twin Spires doesn't do business in New Mexico, so we are relegated to BetPad. I saw earlier that FG was listed on BetPad's racetrack menu for Friday, but nothing on Lone Star. Oddly, though, BetPad is now taking Retama, which is a Texas track. Hopefully, this mess is getting resolved.

I believe Lone Star is a Magna track and BetPad doesn't have an agreement with Magna, to the best of my knowledge. BetPad allows Texas residents to wager on Texas tracks, so it's not a legislative problem.

[Charlie D]

“TVG continues to be in discussion with Louisiana horsemen, and hope we can secure the Fair Grounds signal at equitable rates,” he said. “We continue to work to find a resolution.”

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/48027.htm?id=48027

[schweitz]

I believe Lone Star is a Magna track and BetPad doesn't have an agreement with Magna, to the best of my knowledge. BetPad allows Texas residents to wager on Texas tracks, so it's not a legislative problem.

When Magna purchased Lone Star the Texas Racing Commission made it a condition of the sale that Lone Star would not be available for online wagers originating in the state of Texas.

[DeanT]

The presence of slot subsidies for purses is a perfect opportunity for the industry to reduce takeout which in turn will increase handle which in turn will produce more handle-generated funds for purses AND more revenue for the tracks and racing associations. This is WIN-WIN at its finest.

Yet there appears to be jurisdictions that don't care squat about growing handle in spite of their purses being enhanced by slot subsidies. Look no farther than Delaware Park or the Pennsylvania tracks.

And, now, look at Fair Grounds: 25% takeout on "Pick" bets, Tri's and Super's. It's fine that they have stall applications for twice as many horses as they have stalls; and, it's fine that they have new outfits coming in to race this meet; and, it's fine that the slots-enriched purses are their highest ever....

BUT, what are are they doing for horseplayers?

Here's a tremendous opportunity for a track to reposition itself so that everybody benefits......will it do so?

:ThmbUp:

And since Pace does not like us to post emoticons only I will give a hearty "great post Rich!" as a reply :)

[takeout]

When Magna purchased Lone Star the Texas Racing Commission made it a condition of the sale that Lone Star would not be available for online wagers originating in the state of Texas.
Why did they do that?

[takeout]

Here's a tremendous opportunity for a track to reposition itself so that everybody benefits......will it do so?
If they do they'll be the first. Tracks with slots are blowing it bigtime.

[JustRalph]

This Fairgrounds deal without TVG may be the beginning of the end for TVG........... or at least the beginning of a change of attitude for TVG. Depending on who buys them

[schweitz]

Why did they do that?

This was a few years back and at the time they had a problem with Magna owning an ADW since it is actually against state law (but so far not enforced) for ADW's to take online wagers in Texas.

[raybo]

This was a few years back and at the time they had a problem with Magna owning an ADW since it is actually against state law (but so far not enforced) for ADW's to take online wagers in Texas.

This is the reason I left YouBet.com. They honored the law in Texas and wouldn't allow Texas residents to wager on Texas tracks. BrisBet.com, however, said that " it is a state problem, Texas is responsible for enforcing the law, not BrisBet". They told me in an email that they would continue to allow residents to wager on Texas tracks unless forced to stop by a court decision. Then BrisBet sold their wagering entity and the members were sent either to Twinspires or BetPad. Twinspires doesn't take Texas residents but BetPad does.

[ddog]

screw 'em, now they have everyone pleading to get access to bet from aywhere,like that's some gift from god , 25% take , give it up.

they can stick their signal where the sun don't shine. i aint' betting that.


STOP ALL BETTING FOR THE REST OF THE YEAR, if you have an ounce of self respect!


:mad:

[raybo]

screw 'em, now they have everyone pleading to get access to bet from aywhere,like that's some gift from god , 25% take , give it up.

they can stick their signal where the sun don't shine. i aint' betting that.


STOP ALL BETTING FOR THE REST OF THE YEAR, if you have an ounce of self respect!


:mad:

I would go along with a nationwide ADW and track site boycott, in a minute, if all HANA members would honor it also. A press release from HANA stating the boycott would be the first step, possibly this might jog others to join HANA and cause the industry to recognize that their time is up. I know we only have 300+ members right now but if we start now and stick to our guns, it might have success, or at least start a more generalized movement throughout the country.

[rrbauer]

If they do they'll be the first. Tracks with slots are blowing it bigtime.

It was brought to my attention via a contact at my trackthieves.com website that CURRENTLY Louisiana tracks have the discretion to LOWER TAKEOUT TO AS LOW AS 12% on P3, P4 and P6 wagers with the approval of the LA HBPA.

To me, this is a major opportunity for horseplayers to request a takeout reduction on these bet types for the current meet that starts today, Friday, Nov 14. As I stated in an earlier post, this is a major WIN-WIN opportunity for everyone involved. The horse owners, track owners and horseplayers.

I will find out the best avenue for contacting FG and the LA-HPBA and post that info here in this thread....hopefully, later today.

(If HANA wants to get involved in this effort someone please contact me via PM or email for additional information.)

[startngate]

It was brought to my attention via a contact at my trackthieves.com website that CURRENTLY Louisiana tracks have the discretion to LOWER TAKEOUT TO AS LOW AS 12% on P3, P4 and P6 wagers with the approval of the LA HBPA.

To me, this is a major opportunity for horseplayers to request a takeout reduction on these bet types for the current meet that starts today, Friday, Nov 14. As I stated in an earlier post, this is a major WIN-WIN opportunity for everyone involved. The horse owners, track owners and horseplayers.

I will find out the best avenue for contacting FG and the LA-HPBA and post that info here in this thread....hopefully, later today.

(If HANA wants to get involved in this effort someone please contact me via PM or email for additional information.)Nice dream, but I suspect the host fee for FG has been raised to around 9% to appease the horsemen with this new deal, so you've basically got no chance at getting that done.

The horsemen certainly aren't going to accept less, and FG owns an ADW.

[Charlie D]

I'm useless at the written word and i could only find the "webmaster" contact details,, but I just sent this to FG

I notice from Press releases you are proud to announce high slot enriched
purses for the horsemen, , however, your Take out still remains high

"Pick" Tri's and Super bets at a massive 25% is quite unbelievable

Do not think the horseplayer should benefit from Slots too by a reduction
in Take Out ???


I'll post reply if i get one

[trigger]

It was brought to my attention via a contact at my trackthieves.com website that CURRENTLY Louisiana tracks have the discretion to LOWER TAKEOUT TO AS LOW AS 12% on P3, P4 and P6 wagers with the approval of the LA HBPA.

To me, this is a major opportunity for horseplayers to request a takeout reduction on these bet types for the current meet that starts today, Friday, Nov 14. As I stated in an earlier post, this is a major WIN-WIN opportunity for everyone involved. The horse owners, track owners and horseplayers.

I will find out the best avenue for contacting FG and the LA-HPBA and post that info here in this thread....hopefully, later today.

(If HANA wants to get involved in this effort someone please contact me via PM or email for additional information.)

It's worth a try but ,since the contracts are already signed, I doubt the ADWs will agree to a cut in their piece of the action even if you convinced the track and horsemen to go along with with it.
I still like the 1/4 share of takeout to all involved---i.e., tracks, horsemen, ADWs, and BETTORS .

[rrbauer]

Nice dream, but I suspect the host fee for FG has been raised to around 9% to appease the horsemen with this new deal, so you've basically got no chance at getting that done.

The horsemen certainly aren't going to accept less, and FG owns an ADW.

The impetus for the ability to lower takeout rates on selected bets at Louisiana tracks came as a result of efforts by the Louisiana HBPA who recognized that less could be more. That is a fact, not idle speculation about who is going to do what because of this, that and the other thing.

Maybe if I knew who you were, your post would make sense. As it stands, it appears that you're primarily interested in the status quo. If losing 25% of your bet before the game starts is your idea of a good deal then go for it. But, don't be pissing on those of us who are trying to make this game better for everyone.

[miesque]

It looks like a deal between TVG and Fair Grounds has been struck, which is a step in the right direction.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/99906.html

[bucksboy]

New poster here....I was looking forward to Fairgrounds today. Was going
to give them some play because they were sharing the signal. Low and
behold....NO FAIRGROUNDS on NJBETS....What a way to run an airline !!!

Why wouldn't the track get the feed ??? Anybody ??

[rrbauer]

It looks like a deal between TVG and Fair Grounds has been struck, which is a step in the right direction.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/99906.html


Try this link:

http://www.drf.com/news/article/99907.html

[bucksboy]

Fairgrounds up on NJBETS.......right before post time......Geez

[rrbauer]

I sent this email to Lenny Vangilder, Director of Communications at Fair Grounds (lvangilder@fgno.com) with a cc to Sean Alfortish, Exec Director of the LA-HBPA (salfortish@lahbpa.org) today.




"Gentlemen,
Good luck with your new race meet at Fair Grounds. With a large population of quality horses, robust purses and many of the large ADW outfits in tow, this promises to be a great meet.

As a bettor, I want to point out that Fair Grounds has some of the highest takeout rates on its “Pick” bets of any track in the country. These high rates will prevent bettors such as myself from playing as much at your track as I would like. When I have to give up 25% of my bet before the game starts, a losing proposition is most likely in store; and, as such, I will have to pass on those bets.

For purposes of comparison, at meets currently in play, and at meets that will be starting soon and running at the same time as your meet, here are takeout rates for “Pick” bets. Churchill 19%; Tampa Bay and Gulfstream 20%; Calif tracks 20.7%; Hoosier 21.5%; and, Hawthorne 23% (15% on Pick6).

Fortunately you are in a position to make your platform more competitive since you have the discretionary authority to reduce your Pick-bet takeout rates with the agreement of the LA-HBPA. I urge that you use this authority, work with the HBPA and reduce your rates to a more competitive level for this meet. It will make a difference to players such as myself and will increase your handle as a result. Show horseplayers that good times for your business are good times for your customers as well.

Thank you for your consideration,"

[startngate]

The impetus for the ability to lower takeout rates on selected bets at Louisiana tracks came as a result of efforts by the Louisiana HBPA who recognized that less could be more. That is a fact, not idle speculation about who is going to do what because of this, that and the other thing.

Maybe if I knew who you were, your post would make sense. As it stands, it appears that you're primarily interested in the status quo. If losing 25% of your bet before the game starts is your idea of a good deal then go for it. But, don't be pissing on those of us who are trying to make this game better for everyone.You don't need to know who I am for my post to make sense. Anyone with half a brain for business would get it. Simple economics my friend. The size of the pie is what it is. If you make it smaller, someone loses, and right now, it's the bettor getting squeezed because the horsemen are asking for a bigger piece. You can bet the tracks and the ADW's aren't going to be giving up their shares too easily.

IMO, you've got no shot at getting takeout reduced after these negotiations have been completed. You see it doesn't matter whether or not the horsemen moved to get the ability to lower takeouts in LA done out of some understanding that 'less might be more' in the past, because they just negotiated a deal now that will prevent it from happening.

And this is exactly why I (and others) have been solidly against the THG's idea to raise their share of the pie. Because it screws us (meaning the bettors). For those tracks where host fees continue to climb, any chance of decreasing takeout goes away (along with the alternative ... the ability to rebate). As the ADW's profit margins get constricted, they are forced to eliminate things that ultimately benefit customers (like rebates, customer service, R&D, contests, free video and PP's, etc) to maintain their profit margins.

The thing is, until a representative of the bettors gets involved before the tracks, horsemen and ADW's get done splitting up the pie, takeouts are either going to stay the same, or go up.

I'm not pissing on you (or anyone else for that matter), just pointing out that IMO you are wasting your time on this particular battle (meaning Fair Grounds). IMO you are too late to the table for this one. Maybe you are not for Delta and Evangeline, or any one of a number of tracks where horsemen aren't holding out for the THG deal. Especially those places with purses fueld by slots.

I applaud your (and anyone else's for that matter) efforts to fight the takeout battle. We need more people like you. IMO, the battle needs to be fought someplace where TrackNet and THG are not involved first. Ideally someplace that has already proven itself to be 'fan friendlier' without all this extra nonsense going on. Where that is, I don't know.

I have said many times on this forum I am for lowering takeout, or in the alternative, having rebates available to more people than they are now. Still, you seem to want to paint me with the "status quo" brush, and this is not the first time you've tried to do it. Well, nothing could be further from the truth, and anyone who had actually read my posts here knows that.

Good luck with your letter. If it works, I'll be shocked. But I'll also come back and congratulate you.

[DeanT]

That's a good synopsis on why the majority of horseplayers are against the THG stuff. Once it is written in stone the battle to lower the rake is virtually impossible.

I think it will be the last nail in the coffin and we will see handles below 10 billion in a few years if that happens. Just my opinion.

[rrbauer]

ADW's get a percentage of the pie. They DO NOT decide what the total pie is. That decision remains with the state and the people who put on the show. The idea that the total pie can't change during a meet is even dumber than my almost-half-brain-driven desire to seek change for the bettor.

[DeanT]

Rich, with the horseman agreements (it is my understanding and it could be wrong) that the hard percentage is written in it, not the percentage mix. So for example, THG would want say 10% out of a 30% superfecta rake bet. If a track wanted to do a 8% super as a promo, they could not because they are handcuffed to pay 10% to THG.

I know up here that was one of the reasons that Canadians had to go and get a PO box or a friend in the US to open an account to get the ELP pick 4. Strange business plan, and business model, but in racing not much makes common sense (imo)

[trying2win]

FG opens November 14. Does anyone know ADW status?

I was just doing some checking online of some of the other so-called "smaller ADW'S" for availability of the FAIR GROUNDS on their betting menus:

1. RACING2DAY.COM.....the answer is NO

2. DAYATTHETRACK.COM.....the answer is NO

3. BETAMERICA.COM.....the answer is YES

4. PREMIERTURFCLUB.COM.....the answer is NO


ADDITONAL NOTES:

--I noticed something unusual in my studies on two of these ADWS...i.e. BET AMERICA and PREMIER TURF CLUB. Both BET AMERICA and PREMIER TURF CLUB work in conjunction with HORSE RACE NORTH DAKOTA, yet BET AMERICA strangely is able to offer FAIR GROUNDS on their betting menu, while PREMIER TURF CLUB DOESN'T. How did B.A. manage to pull that one off? That's a real mystery :confused: .

--Another strange one...BET AMERICA is able to offer wagering on AQUEDUCT too. None of the other three ADW'S mentioned above, are able to do the same at present.

--None of the four above-mentioned above ADW'S offer any other MAGNA or CDI tracks on their betting menus.


T2W

[startngate]

BetAmerica is a sub-licensee of Lien Games. PTC is not. I'm guessing that the Lien Games contract allows it, or the horsemen/tracks haven't figured out it's going on yet.

All the ADW's in North Dakota have to work with the Horse Park. They have to pay them a fee to support live racing in order to be licensed in ND.

[startngate]

Rich, with the horseman agreements (it is my understanding and it could be wrong) that the hard percentage is written in it, not the percentage mix. So for example, THG would want say 10% out of a 30% superfecta rake bet. If a track wanted to do a 8% super as a promo, they could not because they are handcuffed to pay 10% to THG.

I know up here that was one of the reasons that Canadians had to go and get a PO box or a friend in the US to open an account to get the ELP pick 4. Strange business plan, and business model, but in racing not much makes common sense (imo)Actually it doesn't really matter how the host fee is calculated. My point was this:

The horsemen (meaning the THG here) have said they wanted a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 model. Using their blended takeout rate of 21%, that comes to each side getting 7%. The ADW's have openly said that's unprofitable for them.

If you lower takeout to 12%, each side gets 4%. So forget whether or not that's OK with the horsemen and tracks, if 7% wasn't good enough for the ADW's, how is 4%? It's not.

Even if the calculation is a percentage of the takeout it still doesn't work.

Would an ADW go along for an isolated short meet, or an isolated pool at a meet? Maybe as a loss-leader, but that's about all. Make it across many pools and a long meet, and the ADW is going to drop the track. If you don't believe me, look at how many tracks threatened to drop Keeneland when they wanted to lower their takeout a few years ago ... and those were locations paying a smaller host fee than ADW's face today.

Again, it's a zero sum game, and it doesn't matter where you start. The ADW needs a certain minimum percentage to stay in business. If there is a wholesale change the takeout or the host fees to squeeze that number, the ADW either has to reduce it's expenses by reducing rebates, customer service, R&D, features and free stuff ... or it has to close.

[rrbauer]

Rich, with the horseman agreements (it is my understanding and it could be wrong) that the hard percentage is written in it, not the percentage mix. So for example, THG would want say 10% out of a 30% superfecta rake bet. If a track wanted to do a 8% super as a promo, they could not because they are handcuffed to pay 10% to THG.

I know up here that was one of the reasons that Canadians had to go and get a PO box or a friend in the US to open an account to get the ELP pick 4. Strange business plan, and business model, but in racing not much makes common sense (imo)

Precisely the point, Dean. The whole discretionary thing was done in Louisiana because of the impetus provided by the LA-HBPA. Two things have to happen: The track has to approve it; and, the LA-HBPA has to approve it. Obviously if they drop the takeout on some Pick-bets then both the track and the LA-HBPA are going to share the hit in one way or the other. It has absolutely nothing to do with what PERCENTAGE the ADW gets. Tracks change takeout rates and betting platforms during meets all of the time. They do it for an economic or promotional reason and they work it out. This is one of the very rare instances (Florida being the other that I'm aware of) that a track can change takeout rates without any legislative effort.

[Cangamble]

Precisely the point, Dean. The whole discretionary thing was done in Louisiana because of the impetus provided by the LA-HBPA. Two things have to happen: The track has to approve it; and, the LA-HBPA has to approve it. Obviously if they drop the takeout on some Pick-bets then both the track and the LA-HBPA are going to share the hit in one way or the other. It has absolutely nothing to do with what PERCENTAGE the ADW gets. Tracks change takeout rates and betting platforms during meets all of the time. They do it for an economic or promotional reason and they work it out. This is one of the very rare instances (Florida being the other that I'm aware of) that a track can change takeout rates without any legislative effort.
In Ontario, Woodbine can change takeouts anytime they want. I think they just have to give 2 week notice.
But they apparently do have deals with the horsemen groups which would be a very large obstacle against any drastic moves (for example, the Ellis example Dean gave).
Horsemen groups are usually very thick. Less is less 100% in Ontario to them.

[JimG]

I was just doing some checking online of some of the other so-called "smaller ADW'S" for availability of the FAIR GROUNDS on their betting menus:

1. RACING2DAY.COM.....the answer is NO

2. DAYATTHETRACK.COM.....the answer is NO

3. BETAMERICA.COM.....the answer is YES

4. PREMIERTURFCLUB.COM.....the answer is NO


ADDITONAL NOTES:

--I noticed something unusual in my studies on two of these ADWS...i.e. BET AMERICA and PREMIER TURF CLUB. Both BET AMERICA and PREMIER TURF CLUB work in conjunction with HORSE RACE NORTH DAKOTA, yet BET AMERICA strangely is able to offer FAIR GROUNDS on their betting menu, while PREMIER TURF CLUB DOESN'T. How did B.A. manage to pull that one off? That's a real mystery :confused: .

--Another strange one...BET AMERICA is able to offer wagering on AQUEDUCT too. None of the other three ADW'S mentioned above, are able to do the same at present.

--None of the four above-mentioned above ADW'S offer any other MAGNA or CDI tracks on their betting menus.


T2W

To add to your list, cdphonebet listed Fair Grounds as available, but it was not. Kind of weird, I had to go to Twin Spires to play there.

Jim

[RichieP]

To add to your list, cdphonebet listed Fair Grounds as available, but it was not. Kind of weird, I had to go to Twin Spires to play there.
Jim

As of right now TS is showing FG as temporarily unavailable for wager Jim. This can't be for real right??? :bang:

[DeanT]

This can't be for real right??? :bang:

In this business take the most bizarre, anti-revenue item that can happen, and make it the chalk.

[BillW]

Fair Grounds is on the Betpad wagering menu, but they aren't accepting wagers at this hour (they are accepting wagers on other tracks)

[RichieP]

As of right now TS is showing FG as temporarily unavailable for wager Jim.

OK things good now. :)

[GaryG]

STOP ALL BETTING FOR THE REST OF THE YEAR, if you have an ounce of self respect!


:mad:Well, I have an ounce or so of self respect, but until the new govt starts taking care of me I will have to continue playing. I will play FG and Tampa all winter either with ADW or OTB.

[RichieP]

I will play FG and Tampa all winter either with ADW or OTB.

Rock on G! :ThmbUp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFs8G0yOtfc

[Charlie D]

Email reply


Thank you for your e-mail. Takeout rates are set by Louisiana's rules of racing and
not established by each association.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Lenny Vangilder
Director of Publicity / Simulcasting
Fair Grounds Race Course & Slots
1751 Gentilly Blvd.
New Orleans, LA 70119

[Charlie D]

I presume Mr Vangilder means Take out rates are set by http://horseracing.louisiana.gov/

[rrbauer]

Email reply




* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Lenny Vangilder
Director of Publicity / Simulcasting
Fair Grounds Race Course & Slots
1751 Gentilly Blvd.
New Orleans, LA 70119

Here's the law (page 2):
http://legis.state.la.us/billdata/streamdocument.asp?did=430086

And, here's the LA-HBPA position on the law:
"Furthermore, the HBPA also successfully passed another bill to reduce the takeout on Pick Three, Pick Four
and Pick Six wagers. Prior to the passage of this bill, Louisiana state law mandated that 25% of each dollar wagered
was taken out by the Race Track before the remaining 75% was paid out to the bettor. The passage of this
law allows the Race Track with the permission of the HBPA to reduce the take out on these wagers to as low as
12%. We believe this will entice more bettors wagering in our pools in Louisiana because they will gain a higher
return on their investment. In turn, the more money placed into our pools will result in an increase in the purse
money split with the horsemen from these wagers and strengthen our position to get higher host fees for selling
our signal to other simulcast sites throughout the country. We realize this seems a bit technical, but the bottom
line is that we believe these changes will help increase purse money."

The entire text is at this link in the "Summer 2007 Newsletter, Page 7"
http://www.lahbpa.org/

Unfortunately, Vangilder's interest in his customers and his knowledge of the laws in his industry is best categorized as Low-to-Poor.

[Charlie D]

law allows the Race Track with the permission of the HBPA to reduce the take out on these wagers to as low as
12%. We believe this will entice more bettors wagering in our pools in Louisiana because they will gain a higher
return on their investment. In turn, the more money placed into our pools will result in an increase in the purse
money split with the horsemen from these wagers and strengthen our position to get higher host fees for selling
our signal to other simulcast sites throughout the country


If they think it will bring in more, and this will help increase purses, why the hell are they not reducing the take on these bets

:confused: of UK

[Charlie D]

To Lenny Vangilder


Hi


This from LAHBPA website was brought to my attention





"Furthermore, the HBPA also successfully passed another bill to reduce the
takeout on Pick Three, Pick Four
and Pick Six wagers. Prior to the passage of this bill, Louisiana state
law mandated that 25% of each dollar wagered
was taken out by the Race Track before the remaining 75% was paid out to
the bettor. The passage of this
law allows the Race Track with the permission of the HBPA to reduce the
take out on these wagers to as low as
12%. We believe this will entice more bettors wagering in our pools in
Louisiana because they will gain a higher
return on their investment. In turn, the more money placed into our pools
will result in an increase in the purse
money split with the horsemen from these wagers and strengthen our
position to get higher host fees for selling
our signal to other simulcast sites throughout the country. We realize
this seems a bit technical, but the bottom
line is that we believe these changes will help increase purse money."



Fair Grounds and it's horsemen are leading the way on availability of
signal, maybe they can lead the way on Take out also and put the
above into action

[raybo]

In turn, the more money placed into our pools
will result in an increase in the purse
money split with the horsemen from these wagers and strengthen our
position to get higher host fees for selling
our signal to other simulcast sites throughout the country.

This is scary. Sounds like they plan on increasing the host fees for ADWs. Not good.

[startngate]

If they think it will bring in more, and this will help increase purses, why the hell are they not reducing the take on these bets

:confused: of UKBecause the horsemen can not reduce the takeout rates themselves. All they can do is approve it if the tracks want to do so.

Since the horsemen have managed to gain higher host fees from the ADW's ... including the one owned by the parent company of Fair Grounds ... the track isn't about to lower takeout.

Delta and Evangeline are not in the same position of owning an ADW. It will be interesting to see if they make any moves (which I personally doubt) and what the reaction will be from the outlets taking them, including the ADW's.

[Charlie D]

Well, while take out rates remains at a whopping 25%, this player has no interest in Pick bets at FG or any other track , so they are correct in thinking a lower rate would probably entice me


And i'm sure there are plenty of other players that have no interest in playing at these rates either, so it's probably another case of racing Shooting self in foot