Maimonides

[ghostyapper]

Does anyone know his status?

[DanG]

Does anyone know his status?
What memories; The 2yo anchor I tied to my neck proclaiming him the “Best 2yo in America” :rolleyes: after his Spa maiden win (in a PA thread). :blush:

BTW: I haven’t seen him on the Cal work tab since February.

[Horsefan]

Hi Dan! Before I took my year long break from this forum (I am so in over my head with all of you handicappers!) I was loving Maimonides too. I think I saw mention of him over at the drf forum- the Zayatt family posts there personally and are held in very high esteem as great folks all around. What could have been so bad that it's taken Bill Mott this long to get him back to the races? A happy ending would be for him to come back in a big way and give sire Vindication a legacy.

[DanG]

Hi Dan! Before I took my year long break from this forum (I am so in over my head with all of you handicappers!) I was loving Maimonides too. I think I saw mention of him over at the drf forum- the Zayatt family posts there personally and are held in very high esteem as great folks all around. What could have been so bad that it's taken Bill Mott this long to get him back to the races? A happy ending would be for him to come back in a big way and give sire Vindication a legacy.
Welcome back Horsefan!

I wish I could answer but I don’t really know. Unless Mott has taken the horse over (and my memory is really going south) it was Baffert’s horse.

People I respect talked about that animal for months before he ran. I saw his Sar race and he tracked so well in his head on I didn’t see an issue. Next thing you know (as with so many fast 2yo’s) he bucked shins and I guess it’s led to other issues.

Slightly related; I saw an old interview Harvey Pack did with Mack Miller and Mack said he had NEVER had a 2yo buck shins. I found that as incredible as it was revealing on some of the win early 2yo barns. Of course; Mack was VERY conservative to say the least.

[Tee]

Maimonides had ankle surgery in late Feb 08, shortly after joining the Bill Mott barn.

[DanG]

Maimonides had ankle surgery in late Feb 08, shortly after joining the Bill Mott barn.

Thanks Tee.

[slewis]

After watching his win at Saratoga two years ago, several regulars approched me and asked me if I was impressed.


I told them that he wouldn't race more then 5 times in his career.

VERY VERY poor confirmation.
In a sport where one gets humbled very easily, when I see a horse this bad, I'm rarely wrong.

I'd be surprised if he ever makes it back to race.

[the little guy]

I'm rarely wrong.





I know the feeling.

[DanG]

After watching his win at Saratoga two years ago, several regulars approched me and asked me if I was impressed.

I told them that he wouldn't race more then 5 times in his career.

VERY VERY poor confirmation.
In a sport where one gets humbled very easily, when I see a horse this bad, I'm rarely wrong.

I'd be surprised if he ever makes it back to race.
Based on Paddock inspection?…couldn’t say; I’ll take your word for it.

There was nothing in the head on to indicate unsoundness. In fact; he tracked straighter then most 2yo’s that meet imo.

[slewis]

Based on Paddock inspection?…couldn’t say; I’ll take your word for it.

There was nothing in the head on to indicate unsoundness. In fact; he tracked straighter then most 2yo’s that meet imo.

Yes Dan,

Based on paddock inspection.. I look at virtually every horse, every day and into a database it goes.

After 10 yrs of doing this.. the real bad ones become very obvious.

It does not mean that they wont run one, maybe several good races, but eventually the house crashes.

I actually label them "accidents waiting to happen". It becomes quite a quest for their trainers to train them to race and keep them going.

It's no big deal.. many horseman/trainers see the same things I do,

I've just incorporated it into a large part of my handicapping.

A few years back, in a one week period and prior to their respective races, I predicted two horses were visually close to breaking down.
This was based on what I saw in their previous races/inspection, and how they were walking to and in the paddock on race day.
Unfortunetly, I was right and both broke down. A friend of mine, who I had told prior to them racing their ill fated races, told me he would have booked that prediction at odds of 1/2 million to one.
These horses obviously passed the state vet too. They just choose to allow unsound horses to compete.
Go watch the replay of the first race at Aqueduct today. Watch the stretch run. See if you can spot a very unsound horse.

[toetoe]

slewis,

Andy's conformation --- your thoughts, please ?



--- The Nonconformist

[DanG]

Yes Dan,

Based on paddock inspection.. I look at virtually every horse, every day and into a database it goes.

After 10 yrs of doing this.. the real bad ones become very obvious.

Outstanding edge that won’t go away in our lifetime. :ThmbUp:

I respect your discipline and being able to visually inspect. I’ve tried it pre race several times and it got me in more trouble then it helped.

Thanks for sharing.

[Steve 'StatMan']

One thing I would love to have had is the knowledge, if not the little black book, from the late, great trainer Jere R. Smith Sr. on the Chicago Circuit -it was said he made detailed notes on every horse on the Chicago circuit, always studying horses and their condition for potential claims and/or horses to avoid claiming if they became available. Oh to be a great handicapper and also have a great understanding of the animal, to know when what is on paper still represents the horse, and when the animal is different today than what the paper history says.

[Steve 'StatMan']

These horses obviously passed the state vet too. They just choose to allow unsound horses to compete.
Go watch the replay of the first race at Aqueduct today. Watch the stretch run. See if you can spot a very unsound horse.

I don't want to take the thread away from Maimonedes, although an interesting point on body language and physicality has been raised.

I imagine all these horses were considered 'in racing shape', although many horses have problems, esp. the cheaper the level they end up at. Probably aren't as many nicked up ones in NY, and as they get dinged up, then they slow down, or become unsounder, and end up either racing at lower levels and other circuits where the lower levels are more common. Heck, even my buddy that seriously studies body language and bets Beulah seriously likes likes to come to Hawthorne for the better overall quality of animals, and Hawthorne, while I love 'em, isn't at the NYRA level, even the AQU Inner Dirt Meet (as we are on the eve of it.)

I reviewed the pan and replay (twice) shots for this race. Fortunately for viewing purposes, the race scratched down to four horses. I thought I'd try looking at the runners and seeing if I could spot any potential trouble horses.

Not wanting you to give away secrets, Slewis, but was it by any chance the 2nd finisher, #4 Ferocious Won? It looked like he weaved out a path on the turn while not being forced out, and really couldn't respond with anything down the stretch. I was having trouble on my screens, but I don't think he changed leads down the stretch run. Plus I think just near the finish, from the head-on, it looked like one of his 2 right legs struck one of his 2 left legs, not sure if it was right front to left rear or not.

Thought I'd take the opportunity to learn a lesson, and take a risk of being wrong to hopefully learn sometihing, or at least be a better race/horse observer.

[Steve 'StatMan']

On additional viewing, it also looked like the horse (#4) really went wide out of the turn, essentially boring out a bit, and weaved in & out a little bit afterwards at the top of the stretch run.

[sally]

I thought the #2 horse, Frigata, looked very tired coming into the stretch...

[slewis]

I don't want to take the thread away from Maimonedes, although an interesting point on body language and physicality has been raised.

I imagine all these horses were considered 'in racing shape', although many horses have problems, esp. the cheaper the level they end up at. Probably aren't as many nicked up ones in NY, and as they get dinged up, then they slow down, or become unsounder, and end up either racing at lower levels and other circuits where the lower levels are more common. Heck, even my buddy that seriously studies body language and bets Beulah seriously likes likes to come to Hawthorne for the better overall quality of animals, and Hawthorne, while I love 'em, isn't at the NYRA level, even the AQU Inner Dirt Meet (as we are on the eve of it.)

I reviewed the pan and replay (twice) shots for this race. Fortunately for viewing purposes, the race scratched down to four horses. I thought I'd try looking at the runners and seeing if I could spot any potential trouble horses.

Not wanting you to give away secrets, Slewis, but was it by any chance the 2nd finisher, #4 Ferocious Won? It looked like he weaved out a path on the turn while not being forced out, and really couldn't respond with anything down the stretch. I was having trouble on my screens, but I don't think he changed leads down the stretch run. Plus I think just near the finish, from the head-on, it looked like one of his 2 right legs struck one of his 2 left legs, not sure if it was right front to left rear or not.

Thought I'd take the opportunity to learn a lesson, and take a risk of being wrong to hopefully learn sometihing, or at least be a better race/horse observer.

You get an "A" in your first lesson.

Now, remember to take those notes, transfer it into your database, and implement it into your handicapping next time he races, along with any other positives or negatives, as I call them, that may come up.

By the way, this aint easy, but I look at horse racing through a completely different window then most.
Good work.

[the little guy]

By the way, this aint easy, but I look at horse racing through a completely different window then most.




Through your window at Creedmore I assume?

[slewis]

slewis,

Andy's conformation --- your thoughts, please ?



--- The Nonconformist

The Little Guy's coat looks rather dull..... and he's clearly gone from Roan to Full gray.

I'd geld him and drop in for 20k. Maybe Lake will claim him. He'll be back in NY in 2 weeks. !!!

[slewis]

I thought the #2 horse, Frigata, looked very tired coming into the stretch...

Sorry Sally,

Steve stats got it right.......

[Steve 'StatMan']

You get an "A" in your first lesson.

Now, remember to take those notes, transfer it into your database, and implement it into your handicapping next time he races, along with any other positives or negatives, as I call them, that may come up.

By the way, this aint easy, but I look at horse racing through a completely different window then most.
Good work.

Thanks Slewis! Esp. thank you for asking the question and sharing the chance for us to learn! Knowing things like this, that don't show up in the PPS and the data files can only help ones game, if worked with carefully (storing & retrieving the notes as you've suggested, etc.) Time comsuming, yes. Detail orientated, yes. Oh for 48 hours in a day instead of only 24.

:) :) :)

[slewis]

Thanks Slewis! Esp. thank you for asking the question and sharing the chance for us to learn! Knowing things like this, that don't show up in the PPS and the data files can only help ones game, if worked with carefully (storing & retrieving the notes as you've suggested, etc.) Time comsuming, yes. Detail orientated, yes. Oh for 48 hours in a day instead of only 24.

:) :) :)

No problem....

Just keep an open mind and try to learn before trying to implement this into you betting.

Take the horse in question in the 1st race... if he returns in 6 weeks, he'll probably be ok and not necessarily a bet against.(6 weeks is the approximate heeling time for trauma) Of course he'll miss some training time, but it's my opinion is that some older horses would be better off shed -walking and heeling up then training. We will NEVER know what the trainer is doing.
The next time he's entered, I'll have a close up look and I can usually get an idea of how their doing.
Good luck and most importantly, have fun doing this and understand it's not, like everything else in this sport, an exact science.

[Steve 'StatMan']

No problem....

Just keep an open mind and try to learn before trying to implement this into you betting.

Take the horse in question in the 1st race... if he returns in 6 weeks, he'll probably be ok and not necessarily a bet against.(6 weeks is the approximate heeling time for trauma) Of course he'll miss some training time, but it's my opinion is that some older horses would be better off shed -walking and heeling up then training. We will NEVER know what the trainer is doing.
The next time he's entered, I'll have a close up look and I can usually get an idea of how their doing.
Good luck and most importantly, have fun doing this and understand it's not, like everything else in this sport, an exact science.

Very good follow up advice. You're right, they can heal in time, or maybe not. And some horses will look bad with pre-race body language, and still win (of course, if the whole field looks bad, somebody had to win.)

Definitely looks like something to do on just ones home circuit, have a hard time imagining folks doing this for more than 2 tracks, and 2 seems like pushing it - most likely to be on site for only 1 track and use the paddock and warmup time for followups and final interpretation for today's race.

A couple times I've tried tracking the horses as they finish out the races - we have a 6-8 week break in Chicago during late January through February. In March, I was trying to check which ones, even if they lost, finished out past the wire and through the turn, or pretty much stopped before or after the wire, finishing out very short, hoping to know who might be closer or further away from being ready the next time out. But alas I haven't had the time to fully work with it and benefit to know for sure if that will really help or not. Definitely worth studying and knowing the horses on ones local circuit, if one has the time.

Taking the notes, databasing or storing the notes in a retrievable format, retrieving them on time and then making good sense of them, lots of time, but it does take work to win at this game. Thanks for getting me thinking again, and for the inspiration!

[Horsefan]

Maimonides is back in training, now a resident of . . . Rick Dutrow's barn!!! I read the comments on his conformation and I am astounded that Mr. Zayat paid somewhere around $4.2 million for him based on that. I have read that Dutrow actually has a low amount of actual breakdowns with his horses, so maybe they are a good match. As I previously mentioned, I really enjoy tracking Vindication's babies. Also from his first crop is Noble Sound, out of Serena's Tune- he finally made it to the races and I think has won both of his starts. Anyone know anything more about him? Also Stungbythestorm looks like he started late for Asmussen, recently had a win and before that placed, only showing two starts so far. All of these colts of 2005. Truth Rules and More Happy (she disappeared) from that group as well. Ferragamo a minor stakes winner, career ending injury for him. His Canadian filly Dawn Raid did well. Now I guess that Council Member continues the family tree.

[Thomas Roulston]

A match race between Maimonides and Afrashad would be interesting, no?

[BUD]

To try to close my horse ignorance gap I find me tuning into RFD and watching other horse type stuff to----Trying to learn even one thing--- reading the racing publications but ie horse and rider too....ETC

Is this search for an edge in vain?

Sure I can spot a good horse for my kids lessons---But thats ummm fathers instinct------

Or should I stick to 100% horse racing----Remember I am wicked ill and have little chance to see a real post parade at a real track---I get what the tv shows and the Spires decide to show..-------And with my O.N. that little screen---Good luck to me---But it doesn't stop me from trying.

any thoughts?

[Robert Fischer]

hey Bud ,
Whatever interests you is never a waste of time. :ThmbUp:

I know there are some good books and videos on physicality for sale. And some good free websites too.

The average horseplayer could probably benefit the most $$ from improving their wagering, and having an accurate, realistic knowledge of their own handicapping ability. But some people really take to the physicality aspect.

[atlasaxis]

MAIMONIDES worked 4f ft in :49.80 B (41/66) at GP, 01/10/09

[BUD]

hey Bud ,
Whatever interests you is never a waste of time. :ThmbUp:

I know there are some good books and videos on physicality for sale. And some good free websites too.

The average horseplayer could probably benefit the most $$ from improving their wagering, and having an accurate, realistic knowledge of their own handicapping ability. But some people really take to the physicality aspect.

Thanks RF---Will take that to the bank and maybe the local bookstore.

[slewis]

Maimonides is back in training, now a resident of . . . Rick Dutrow's barn!!! I read the comments on his conformation and I am astounded that Mr. Zayat paid somewhere around $4.2 million for him based on that. I have read that Dutrow actually has a low amount of actual breakdowns with his horses, so maybe they are a good match. As I previously mentioned, I really enjoy tracking Vindication's babies. Also from his first crop is Noble Sound, out of Serena's Tune- he finally made it to the races and I think has won both of his starts. Anyone know anything more about him? Also Stungbythestorm looks like he started late for Asmussen, recently had a win and before that placed, only showing two starts so far. All of these colts of 2005. Truth Rules and More Happy (she disappeared) from that group as well. Ferragamo a minor stakes winner, career ending injury for him. His Canadian filly Dawn Raid did well. Now I guess that Council Member continues the family tree.

I'm glad to hear that he made it back. I'm friendly enough with Rick to find out he's doin and any issues, but he's at GP and I wont run into him.

We'll see.... It's such a long layoff rarely do they make it back.
Thanks for the update.

[Horsefan]

Thank you Slewis!!! Please, please tell Rick that myself and others have wanted to contact him to tell him to keep his chin up and ignore those who just don't believe that he loves and cares for his horses well!

And thank you for the post on Maimonides work! And Hi Bud! Can anyone recommend the best free sites that give the more personalized info on the horses running- other than PACE, which is really the place to be for all handicapping. I also check out Handicapper's Edge, the handicapping section at Bloodhorse, and the Daily Racing Form forum. But those folks know so much more than me that all I can do is sit back and read their good stuff. Also Horse Racing Insider. The Thoroughbred Bloggers Alliance. I do pretty good with my picks and I have almost no handicapping ability. I guess my method would be classified as "choose media favorites who get the most press". I will tend to shy away from future Barclay Tagg entries (he dislikes press?), and all those colts shipped into the black hole of Dubai, for this reason.

[Pace Cap'n]

To try to close my horse ignorance gap I find me tuning into RFD and watching other horse type stuff to----Trying to learn even one thing--- reading the racing publications but ie horse and rider too....ETC

A book that I found to be enlightening and entertaining is "A Breed Apart", by Mike Helm. No, it probably won't help pick any winners, but still a good read.

The author spends a day at the track with each of the principals involved in the game (owner, trainer, jockey, racing sec., vet, track super, etc.) and relates the day's events from their perspective.

Can be had as low as $0.75 at product.half.ebay.com/A-Breed-Apart (http://product.half.ebay.com/A-Breed-Apart_W0QQprZ1198531QQtgZinfo)

Favorite quote (paraphrased), from the track superintendent:

"If I knew how to fix a track to make the longshots come in, I'd only have to do it for one day and you'd never see me again."

[BUD]

A book that I found to be enlightening and entertaining is "A Breed Apart", by Mike Helm. No, it probably won't help pick any winners, but still a good read.

The author spends a day at the track with each of the principals involved in the game (owner, trainer, jockey, racing sec., vet, track super, etc.) and relates the day's events from their perspective.

Can be had as low as $0.75 at product.half.ebay.com/A-Breed-Apart (http://product.half.ebay.com/A-Breed-Apart_W0QQprZ1198531QQtgZinfo)

Favorite quote (paraphrased), from the track superintendent:

"If I knew how to fix a track to make the longshots come in, I'd only have to do it for one day and you'd never see me again."

Great quote-Great help..I look forward to finding this read------Thanks Pace Cap-- Seeing I am a private, should I Salute a Captain?---Here I will Jump:jump:

Thanks friend!!

[ghostyapper]

He's been working fantastic on the poly the last 2 months.

It's time for a race already!!

[the little guy]

He's been working fantastic on the poly the last 2 months.

It's time for a race already!!

Maybe you should add him to your list of horses that you would bet against Munnings at one mile.

[ghostyapper]

Maybe you should add him to your list of horses that you would bet against Munnings at one mile.

A little premature considering he hasn't raced since 07. I just hope he can put 3-4 races together with no injury.

[the little guy]

A little premature considering he hasn't raced since 07. I just hope he can put 3-4 races together with no injury.

That would be the biggest upset since Jim Dandy.