View Full Version : What is Racing's biggest problem?
Hajck Hillstrom
11-04-2008, 06:30 AM
My short list, and I'm curious as to your response. Please feel free to elaborate on your perspective.
brdman12
11-04-2008, 09:23 AM
Although there are many, I vote other. My other is small fields!
point given
11-04-2008, 09:27 AM
Although there are many, I vote other. My other is small fields!
Seems " too many races" would be connected to your reply. less races = bigger fields, to me.
HUSKER55
11-04-2008, 11:00 AM
I chose other because I think most of your list is intertwined with the problem. I am not sure there is one clear cut solution.
For me, I would rather see 6 races on a card with fields of 8-10 horses and longer seasons. Of course smaller takeouts would be nice.
BombsAway Bob
11-04-2008, 11:13 AM
It's a wonder there's any money left to churn thru the windows!
Say there's a $100,000 Pick-4 pool @ Los AL..
-25% Takeout= $75,000.. bombs win, P-4 pays +$5,300 for $1 to 14 tix
Feds pull 25% out of each winning ticket: +$1,300 withholding tax ...
Out of $100,000 bet, apprx.only $56,800 goes back to winners pockets!
(and that's if your state doesn't also hold onto a chunk on your big hit!)
RE-DICULOUS! Govt. taxes me when I earned the cash; taxed it when I bet it; THEN grabs a quarter of my score(to hold) when I finally do hit it "Big"! :(
DeltaLover
11-04-2008, 11:16 AM
Although the list of problems seems very comprehensive, I think there should be absolutely no doubt to the fact that drug use is the biggest and most critical problem, modern horse racing is facing.
As years go by, it is becoming increasingly more difficult for the game to attract young crowds mainly due to the use of drugs that covert the betting pools to a pray for the insiders who posses the juice... If I ever be asked by a young guy who wants to get involved to the gambling scene I will have no hesitation to advice him to stay clear of horse racing and prefer other types of gambling where he might have the potential to actually beat the game (like holdem for example)...
In our era it is common to see a winner coming from a recent dead last performance with absolutely no excuses, who can be accounted only to use of drags and of course fraud.
The worst think though, is that nobody seems to really care about it! A handful of middle aged and retirees who are attending the racing in live is surely not the best audience to protest, the stewards remain silent and the racing press appears extremely tolerant and inactive....
The recently imposed regulation by NYRA regarding drugs looks like a joke, as it restricts ALL THE DRUGS EXCEPT FOUR SPECIFIC STEROIDS that can be used up to a specific period prior to the races. This is a ridiculous ruling that will only perpetuate the juice nightmare allowing trainers to find gazillions ways around it….
Why they just don’t totally ban anabolic steroids, enforcing random drug tests for all the horses in training with very strict penalties for the violators? They are so naïve to believe that the crooked trainers, used to steal the bettors dollar using illegal medication will be discouraged be this wrist slapping “regulation”?
Indulto
11-04-2008, 11:51 AM
Lack of a central governing authority.
jonnielu
11-04-2008, 01:06 PM
My short list, and I'm curious as to your response. Please feel free to elaborate on your perspective.
The racing information industry.
The prosective new fan is quickly instructed that he should buy a lot of accompanying products in order to increase chances for winning.
The prospective new fan is taught by grandpa's experience with that concept.
He follows in his father's footsteps to the casino.
The racing information industry has never taught the player how to play the game, if it did they would work themselves out of a job.
The racing industry has never taught the player how to play the game either, it needs to start doing so, right now.
jdl
Light
11-04-2008, 01:26 PM
The most obvious problem is not amongst the choices. Injuries. The industry is spending millions in rennovating surfaces to prevent them, and is going though its worst public image because of injuries to high profilers like Barbaro and 8 Belles. I cant think of anything that turns the public off to the sport more than seeing horse and rider go down with tragic consequences.
Seems " too many races" would be connected to your reply. less races = bigger fields, to me.
Yes, bigger fields with lower take would attract more money being bet. :ThmbUp:
hibiscus
11-04-2008, 03:09 PM
I think everyone who’s posted to this thread has a very valid opinion. It’s clear by the responses that racing has many problems and all need to be addressed.
However, in my opinion, racing’s biggest, most immediate, and most serious problem is the ADW issue. I think it’s fairly obvious. Even if one could waive a magic wand and cure all of the other problems mentioned in this thread it wouldn’t amount to a hill of beans if the general public can’t get down a bet. It’s the gambling dollar that fuels the industry and without it the industry is dead in the water.
From my personal experience I can tell you that my own handle is down significantly over the past two years. I’m a big fan of the pick-4 and the pick-6 and I used to greatly enjoy playing the guaranteed pools in California. Let’s look at some facts.
I’ll begin by pointing out that I’m a New York resident, not exactly a cultural or technological backwater. Since opening my very first ADW account with TVG years ago I’ve had to deal with:
-My TVG account being closed against my will due to some agreement between TVG and New York authorities banning TVG from offering services to New York residents.
-Having to open separate accounts with YouBet and xPressBet (due to exclusivity) in order to be able to have coverage for most major racing circuits.
-Having to throw my handicapping skills out the window when dirt tracks were replaced with synthetics in California and Kentucky.
-Currently being unable to bet California, Kentucky, and Florida due to ADW disputes.
-Currently being unable to access any online live video for any New York tracks.
Is it a shock to anyone that my wagering dollar remains in my pocket? The powers that be have gone to every effort to make it impossible and unenjoyable to bet and near unattainable to win. It defies common sense to be in the business of selling a product and then making it as difficult as possible for the customer to spend his dollar on your product. As handles decline and purses are cut the industry fiddles while Rome burns.
The solution is simple. Find a way to allow all ADWs to have access to all tracks and the ability to show all video signals in all states. That would, in a sense, fully open all spigots thereby allowing every horseplayer access to every track. That would fully maximize handle by removing all handcuffs from every player. Then it will be up to the customer as to whether he prefers to go to the track, go to an OTB, or to play online. If he can watch the video of every track online it can then be a personal decision as to which ADW site he prefers. A free market system will be established and it will force the ADW sites to innovate in terms of features and service. Personally I think YouBet is by far the most superior site on the Internet. Their interface is slick and aesthetically appealing, their Wager Pad makes entering bets very easy, and, as far as I can tell, they are the only online site that actually shows “will pays” for pick-4s and pick-6s, which I find astonishing. They are the only site that seems to implement upgrades and enhanced features from time-to-time and it’s sad to see their business suffer as it has.
Once that issue is resolved and handle stabilizes and possibly increases, then and only then can the other important issues such as drugs and integrity be addressed. If it were up to me I’d the tab synthetic surfaces as the second most relevant issue and focus on stopping the spread of synthetics and working toward getting the current synthetic tracks replaced with safe traditional dirt. US racing was founded on dirt races and the current population was bred for dirt. The move to unilaterally do away with and replace something as fundamental as the surface on which the game is played was reckless and poorly thought out. It threw under the bus both handicapper and horseman alike. It’s no shock to see Keeneland handle suffer when handicapping that surface is like throwing darts. California racing has now become two things; turf racing and synthetic racing that favors turf horses. The American dirt horse is left out in the cold, as clearly evidenced by results of this year’s Breeders Cup. I’m still waiting for any proponent of synthetic racing to explain how that’s a positive thing.
Solve those two problems and the racing industry, although still diseased, will at least find itself restored to firm footing from where further reforms and progress can be made and hopefully, with some sound decision making, find itself in a healthy growth mode.
slewis
11-04-2008, 05:17 PM
I've got some bad news for everyone who posted on this thread:
Each of you make good points, the bad news is that it's going to get far worse.
Racing is being controlled and manipulated by a group of elite, well connected and wealthy individuals who want to control the sport (and do) for their own personal gain.
They have reached across state lines to accomplish this and have strategically placed "their" people in prominient racing posts to assure the outcome of their agenda.
Now, with the implementation of slots, the handle becomes less and less of an issue and decline thereof will be countered by infusion of funds from the former.
This makes it even easier for tracks to say "go to hell" to they're supporters, the bettors, and believe me, after dealing with these guys on numerous occasions, those are precisely their words.
The installation of these artificial surfaces is a perfect example of decisions made in this industry without proper research to make an intelligent choice.
Just last week I briefly asked Bill Mott what he thought and he told me what many others are saying: It maybe, maybe, helps in some areas, and is worse in others and clearly not worth racing on it.
He thought that "only for training" might be the way to go.
He also told me of a very prominient jockey (who I wont name) who has complained to him of severe nose bleeds on the evenings when riding on synthetic tracks in the afternoon.
Think anyone bothered to do research regarding possible respiratory issues for jocks when they breathe ground tires and carpet fibers??
Several weeks ago, I posted this "agenda" regarding the banning of toe grabs and mud calks..... I provided NYRA trainers with a study which can be substantiated regarding injury statistics. (I pointed out that the trainers of this elite group that have taken control of the sport dont use toe grabs or mud calks, and they feel they are at a disadvantage to those trainers who do). The study clearly showed what all top trainers knew, the use of toe grabs and/or mud calks have no correlation with injury, in fact in the case of mud calks, horses were less likely to be injured.
I mean realistically, mud calks had been used in racing for over 50 yrs, and if they were excessively dangerous, horses would be snapping their legs with them left and right. I posted a list of the GREAT horses that have raced in them.
So, they ( racing elite )come up with an UNSUBTANTIATED study (probably never thinking in a million years someone would actually have a REAL study) and they implement rules nationwide to control what shoes all horses race in.
When NYRA management was confronted with this ( the REAL STUDY )at a horsemen's meeting, NYRA management were dumbfounded like deer in headlights.
The only way anything is ever going to get accomplished in this sport isn't going to happen.
You need a serious boycott of betting for a good 3 weeks or so.
I applaude HANA and what they are trying to accomplish.... it's a very uphill fight.
For those that think I'm making this "elietist" thing up, well, I'm not alone...
read the following:
http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/tag/steve-duncker
I didn’t vote Doug because I couldn’t find the “all of the above” selection.
Even though I agree with 90% of what is written above the main issue that drives me insane is pool integrity. :mad:
The drugging of defenseless animals (that is actually defrauding the wagering public and should be prosecuted as such.) The ADW debacle, insane tax rates, lack of full disclosure with equipment / medications etc…all demand immediate attention; but who can overcome some criminal past posting? :mad:
john del riccio
11-04-2008, 05:52 PM
I agree with Dan, I was looking for all of the above and I would add the
integrity of the jockey colony to your list. What I have seen over the last year has made me feel like I don't truly know this game for what it has become.
JOhn
rrbauer
11-04-2008, 05:54 PM
"All of the above"
"None of the above"
They're the same. Every problem listed is valid, but in reality they aren't problems. They are symptons. The problem is that the industry's refusal to do what is necessary to make horse racing a robust business for everyone concerned over the long haul leaves it mired in a continuum of quick fixes in response to whatever each month's adverse public reaction places on the table. As soon as the clamor subsides it's back to business as usual.
At one time I was naive enough to think that the industry cared about "me" as a customer. Shame on me.
proximity
11-04-2008, 06:32 PM
* 25% takeouts
* 35% trainers
* 45% owners
* wagering accounts with 1.50+ rois and frequent past "off time" cancellations
* the proliferation of conditional claiming races, many with exorbitant purses
******
Imriledup
11-04-2008, 06:50 PM
I agree with Dan, I was looking for all of the above and I would add the
integrity of the jockey colony to your list. What I have seen over the last year has made me feel like I don't truly know this game for what it has become.
JOhn
I want to ask everyone a question concerning fixed races and jockey integrity. Do you personally know who (individual or group) that is in charge to make sure riders aren't fixing races?
I think that its supposed to be the stewards, but i don't think they are necessarily watching races with the idea that they are looking for fixed races. I don't think the stewards are looking at 'funny looking' rides and then going down to the basement and analyzing betting patterns.
As far as i know, the FBI isn't actively analyzing every cheap claiming races from every track in the USA on a daily basis. They aren't sitting up to the wee hours of the night analyzing betting patterns in all these races that are run throughout the country.
Also, if you feel that you lost money because of the fix being 'in' who do you contact that is going to legitimately research your concerns?
Seriously, do we know who is in charge? Is there a person who's responsibility is to watch the races with binoculars to see that every jock is giving his full effort all the way to the wire? I don't think such a person exists.
Maybe this is all part of handicapping and its not a race 'fix' issue. Maybe as a bettor its your responsibility to know which jocks 'mail it in' on certain occasions and which jocks are going to beat a 5k claimer with a billyclub to garner a 5th place finish on every mount they ride.
Still, i would feel better if i knew someone was watching these little men to make sure they are riding every mount with vigor and energy to the line. A lot of these 'usual suspects' are high profile riders at major curcuits who don't care about getting 3rd/4th/5th if they are beaten for the win with 70 yards remaining.
I consistently read the stewards rulings and very seldom, if ever, notice a jock getting a large fine or suspension for not riding out a mount to the line.
proximity
11-04-2008, 07:28 PM
I think that its supposed to be the stewards, but i don't think they are necessarily watching races with the idea that they are looking for fixed races. I don't think the stewards are looking at 'funny looking' rides and then going down to the basement and analyzing betting patterns.
john could certainly tell you better than me, but i don't think it's entirely a betting issue. many times this can involve the integrity of the jockey vs his/her (or the agent's) relationship with other connections in the race.
Indulto
11-04-2008, 07:30 PM
I've got some bad news for everyone who posted on this thread:
Each of you make good points, the bad news is that it's going to get far worse.
Racing is being controlled and manipulated by a group of elite, well connected and wealthy individuals who want to control the sport (and do) for their own personal gain.
They have reached across state lines to accomplish this and have strategically placed "their" people in prominient racing posts to assure the outcome of their agenda.
Now, with the implementation of slots, the handle becomes less and less of an issue and decline thereof will be countered by infusion of funds from the former.
This makes it even easier for tracks to say "go to hell" to they're supporters, the bettors, and believe me, after dealing with these guys on numerous occasions, those are precisely their words.
The installation of these artificial surfaces is a perfect example of decisions made in this industry without proper research to make an intelligent choice.
Just last week I briefly asked Bill Mott what he thought and he told me what many others are saying: It maybe, maybe, helps in some areas, and is worse in others and clearly not worth racing on it.
He thought that "only for training" might be the way to go.
He also told me of a very prominient jockey (who I wont name) who has complained to him of severe nose bleeds on the evenings when riding on synthetic tracks in the afternoon.
Think anyone bothered to do research regarding possible respiratory issues for jocks when they breathe ground tires and carpet fibers??
Several weeks ago, I posted this "agenda" regarding the banning of toe grabs and mud calks..... I provided NYRA trainers with a study which can be substantiated regarding injury statistics. (I pointed out that the trainers of this elite group that have taken control of the sport dont use toe grabs or mud calks, and they feel they are at a disadvantage to those trainers who do). The study clearly showed what all top trainers knew, the use of toe grabs and/or mud calks have no correlation with injury, in fact in the case of mud calks, horses were less likely to be injured.
I mean realistically, mud calks had been used in racing for over 50 yrs, and if they were excessively dangerous, horses would be snapping their legs with them left and right. I posted a list of the GREAT horses that have raced in them.
So, they ( racing elite )come up with an UNSUBTANTIATED study (probably never thinking in a million years someone would actually have a REAL study) and they implement rules nationwide to control what shoes all horses race in.
When NYRA management was confronted with this ( the REAL STUDY )at a horsemen's meeting, NYRA management were dumbfounded like deer in headlights.
The only way anything is ever going to get accomplished in this sport isn't going to happen.
You need a serious boycott of betting for a good 3 weeks or so.
I applaude HANA and what they are trying to accomplish.... it's a very uphill fight.
For those that think I'm making this "elietist" thing up, well, I'm not alone...
read the following:
http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/tag/steve-duncker
Slewis,
You've almost convinced me, but I have some questions:
1) If Phipps et al are so powerful, how did NYRA lose the BC?
2) Would NYRA go synthetic if it had the money?
3) Who was responsible for the Saratoga track maintenance when the meet went breakdown-free on dirt? Was anything being done differently?
4) Why can't you and supporters of your mud-caulk/toe-grab position legally challenge the regulation?
5) Is their any connection between the "Elite" group and the THG/TOC?
6) Would the Jocky Club/BC-NTRA et al group have to control any national industry governing authority?
a. What percentage of horse owners don't support the elite group both in New York and nationwide?
b. How is the value of racing stock distributed among them percentage-wise?
7) Why does the THG exempt RGS/Elite when blocking signals?
a. What % of whales are horsemen?
b. Can a boycott be effective without whales?
c. What would make a whale be willing to boycott?
Toss_DeLoser
11-04-2008, 07:33 PM
I voted customer service. The industry has removed "customer" from customer service. If the powers to be were to put the customer (us players) back first, or even included, IMHO, the majority of the other problems would work themselves out.:bang:
slewis
11-04-2008, 08:23 PM
Slewis,
You've almost convinced me, but I have some questions:
1) If Phipps et al are so powerful, how did NYRA lose the BC?
2) Would NYRA go synthetic if it had the money?
3) Who was responsible for the Saratoga track maintenance when the meet went breakdown-free on dirt? Was anything being done differently?
4) Why can't you and supporters of your mud-caulk/toe-grab position legally challenge the regulation?
5) Is their any connection between the "Elite" group and the THG/TOC?
6) Would the Jocky Club/BC-NTRA et al group have to control any national industry governing authority?
a. What percentage of horse owners don't support the elite group both in New York and nationwide?
b. How is the value of racing stock distributed among them percentage-wise?
7) Why does the THG exempt RGS/Elite when blocking signals?
a. What % of whales are horsemen?
b. Can a boycott be effective without whales?
c. What would make a whale be willing to boycott?
I'll try answer these but of course some answers will be opinion.
I try and be as factual as possible and I've said before, those who know me on this forum know I dont BS.
1) Trust me Phipps IS racing. I dont think he cares about having the BC in NY.
He has no need to have NYRA financially successful, it means nothing to him, they are locked in for 25 yrs.
He races at Keeneland so I think he's probably open to the poly idea but that's my opinion. But what better way to build credibility for these surfaces then to have successful back to back breeders cup raced over them?
2) Haywood has stated they are entertaining Poly T down the road.
3)The previous track super (who was FORCED out) maintained the track. Hey, let me stress a point here, again opinion:
Hard and bad racetracks break down horses, mud calks and toe grabs DO NOT. State vets allowing horses to race when they should ot contributes more to breakdowns then any shoe. It was no coincedence that this SPA meet had no horses who broke down. I would bet if it could be varified that no horse went to post if there is any doubt regarding soundness, not always the case in the past.
That's what was done differently.
4) Trainers asked NYRA management if NYRA would be held accountable if a horse races on a surface where the trainer is not comfortable, but forced to shoe a certain way. NYRA from what I was told had no response.
Filing a lawsuit would be a waste of time, I doubt a judge would hear the case unless your horse broke down.
5) Dont know this one but I think the names in the Paulick report has it's hoof's everywhere.
6) Uhh.. they WOULD be that such organization... (do you know who a guy like Will Farish is? answer: He was Bush's appointment as ambassador to UK)
Who has more pull and power and money then these people??
a)I dont think many owners know what's taking place, this is a hobby for them and their trainers call the shots.
b)Look at the guys on the NYRA bd and look at the horses they race and how they're bred. Look at who they breed to (stallions) and the money they spend. It must KILL them when some small guy comes along and qualifies for the Derby with an inexpensive horse while they put hunderds of millions into the game and cant get there. Would you not agree that Phipps's racing operation is an argueable failure considering the amount of money they put into the game?
8) Trainers whales? I never met a trainer who's a REAL GOOD handicapper, I respect several opinions. I'm sure they exist, maybe not whales, but big bettors but probably not in NY. Dutrow has the best opinion of those I've delt with, Tagg the worst.
A boycott done effectively will probably (temporarily) force whales to the sideline or curtail their play as well.
Whales, I would think want as much money in the pools as possible so I would think that they would support any action that would lead to that.
Charlie D
11-04-2008, 09:26 PM
What is racings biggest problem
It lives in the past
jonnielu
11-04-2008, 10:14 PM
"All of the above"
"None of the above"
They're the same. Every problem listed is valid, but in reality they aren't problems. They are symptons. The problem is that the industry's refusal to do what is necessary to make horse racing a robust business for everyone concerned over the long haul leaves it mired in a continuum of quick fixes in response to whatever each month's adverse public reaction places on the table. As soon as the clamor subsides it's back to business as usual.
At one time I was naive enough to think that the industry cared about "me" as a customer. Shame on me.
The industry doesn't know how to make it a robust business, because it is the people that have accomplished that, at those times that it was a robust business.
jdl
Imriledup
11-05-2008, 03:19 AM
What about an argument that racing really has no problems and its flourishing as much as can be expected given the fact that 99% of its customers lose money?
I think that racing fans are looking back at how successful racing was back in the day and we are comparing what we have today to what we used to have. But, what if you make the argument that what we used to have was a fluke and racing NOW is the way its supposed to be? Maybe we had more customers in the hey day but racing was destined to change with the times and we live in a completely different time and place in the universe.
Back in the day, there was no phone betting, no internet, no simulcasting and many less entertainment options not to mention ridiculous inflation making it less smart to travel out of your house to make a wager.. Why fight to get customers that we weren't entitled to in the first place?
Also, racing doesn't really get involved in free trade and competition and runs itself as more of a monopoly. Why wouldn't California, Kentucky or NY slash all takeout rates to 10% across the board and turn their own product into a super track that would lure almost every smart bettor around? If NY (for example) slashed all takeout to 10% across the board, would you play any other track? Would you even CONSIDER playing another track? Of course not, why would you?
But, racetracks are like gas stations and they have this price fixing thing going on. You can have a Shell station on the corner at 2.89 a gallon and a completely different gas station owned by someone totally different across the street and yep, you guessed it, that gas station will also be exactly 2.89. Why won't one of these stations lower their price to 2.88? Because the station across the street will do the same. Then, both companies will keep lowering their prices one penny until it gets to the point where it benefits no one. So, both stations MUST be in collusion with each other or how can you explain one station not lowering their price by a penny to steal the customers who don't care which gas they use?
Same thing with racetracks.........there doesn't seem to be 'competition' for the dollar, all tracks stick with the standard 17% win, 20% exactas and 25% trifecta takeouts pretty much across the board.
Why not just treat current customers like gold and stop trying to attract new customers? How many people are out in the USA are going to go to a racetrack for the very first time by themselves? Very few. But, most newbies are going to go with someone who's been there before. Most new customers are going with a current customer. Why not treat that current customer like gold?
I'll tell you why they don't treat the current customer like gold......its because there's no real competition. if you live in Los Angeles, you have to go to Hollywood/SA/FPX or you don't go at all. Only one of those tracks is open at a time, so you either patronize Hollywood (which is currently operating) or you don't go.
And, if you are a phone or internet bettor, every track has the same high takeout rates..........so, why would you bother switching wagering loyalties? It makes no sense to toss away years of experience betting one circuit unless it makes financial sense.........and, since every track pretty much has one standard takeout rate, it doesn't make any sense to switch, you would be tossing away your current base of knowledge to learn a completely different circuit that has the same exact pricing model.
Until one major racetrack breaks rank and lowers their takeout substantially, racing will continue to be one big fat monopoly where you either bet into 20% takeouts or you don't bet at all. Take it or leave it.
comet52
11-05-2008, 05:16 AM
Way back when it was the only legal gambling in town and you had to go in person.
A generation came along in the 60's and 70's who didn't have interest, rejected tradition of which racing was a part. The sport started to die.
By the time a generation came along that might have been enticed back into the sport, casinos exploded all over the landscape and offered nonstop action which required no special skill or effort, e.g. reading a form. Meantime the sport developed numerous bad habits, symptoms of it's decline if you will.
The sport now is in permanent decline. It's a snake eating it's own tail and which will eventually disappear.
It is fractured, crooked, drug-sated, antiquated, an ever- diminishing pie over which a set of greedy parasites squabble. These feudal barons of racing bleed their customers dry while finding new ways each month to withhold their tattered product from their last few remaining degenerate gambling customers.
If you wrote this up as a Hollywood movie it would not sell due to the absurdity of it - unless you created a racing Superman who flew in from planet Kryptonite and fixed everything and killed Lex Luthor, except in this film it would be Frank Stronich and Drew Cuoto's bastard radioactive love-child, instead of Lex.
Did that answer your poll? :cool:
It lives in the past
You nailed it.
john del riccio
11-05-2008, 10:43 AM
I want to ask everyone a question concerning fixed races and jockey integrity. Do you personally know who (individual or group) that is in charge to make sure riders aren't fixing races?
I think that its supposed to be the stewards, but i don't think they are necessarily watching races with the idea that they are looking for fixed races. I don't think the stewards are looking at 'funny looking' rides and then going down to the basement and analyzing betting patterns.
As far as i know, the FBI isn't actively analyzing every cheap claiming races from every track in the USA on a daily basis. They aren't sitting up to the wee hours of the night analyzing betting patterns in all these races that are run throughout the country.
Also, if you feel that you lost money because of the fix being 'in' who do you contact that is going to legitimately research your concerns?
Seriously, do we know who is in charge? Is there a person who's responsibility is to watch the races with binoculars to see that every jock is giving his full effort all the way to the wire? I don't think such a person exists.
Maybe this is all part of handicapping and its not a race 'fix' issue. Maybe as a bettor its your responsibility to know which jocks 'mail it in' on certain occasions and which jocks are going to beat a 5k claimer with a billyclub to garner a 5th place finish on every mount they ride.
Still, i would feel better if i knew someone was watching these little men to make sure they are riding every mount with vigor and energy to the line. A lot of these 'usual suspects' are high profile riders at major curcuits who don't care about getting 3rd/4th/5th if they are beaten for the win with 70 yards remaining.
I consistently read the stewards rulings and very seldom, if ever, notice a jock getting a large fine or suspension for not riding out a mount to the line.
I am not advocating that races are fixed. However, if certain jockeys don't try, would that consitute a race being "fixed"? Someone who I respect has conveyed to me on more than one occasion that when you first ride a journeymen rider on your horse, if he hasn't worked him in the AM, you are more likely that not to get a test drive the first time they ride you. The obvious exception is the rider that rides first or second call for a particular barn. Needless to say, I didnt heed his advice on several occasions this year and saw this very thing play out. Just one more slap in the teeth on top of all the other nonsense.
John
Race card data is put up for sale 48 hours before a race. If there is a scratch or change after data is put up for sale I would like to see a substantial fine imposed on the owner of the horse which would go unto the betting pool. That way when you have a say a turf race that starts with a field of 12 or 14 and gets scratched down to four or five there would be some real money in the pool. This would make these people get their act together.
Imriledup
11-05-2008, 07:32 PM
I am not advocating that races are fixed. However, if certain jockeys don't try, would that consitute a race being "fixed"? Someone who I respect has conveyed to me on more than one occasion that when you first ride a journeymen rider on your horse, if he hasn't worked him in the AM, you are more likely that not to get a test drive the first time they ride you. The obvious exception is the rider that rides first or second call for a particular barn. Needless to say, I didnt heed his advice on several occasions this year and saw this very thing play out. Just one more slap in the teeth on top of all the other nonsense.
John
Yeah, i believe that's the 64 dollar question. If an honest jockey just doesn't ride out his mount for whatever reason, as far as the horseplayer is concerned, there's no difference between the jock losing focus and the jock doing it on purpose. As a player, you don't care WHY a jock didn't ride hard to secure a minor board spot, you just know that he cost you money.
Its not a fixed result in a dishonest way, but the end result for the player is the same,less money in the pocketbook.
Track Phantom
11-05-2008, 08:05 PM
I voted for the drug issue since without legitimate outcomes of races, it becomes ONLY a betting proposition and no longer a sport. When Todd Pletcher wins a Grade 1 race, most people used to think it may be tainted. Now, most people don't really care that much because they know most of the industry is tainted. This is the exact reason boxing fell apart and became a quasi wrestling-like event.
However, there may be one problem bigger than all the rest: The failure of racing officials and stakeholders to possess forward thinking. Most people involved in the industry make decisions only on what benefits their immediate needs and not what benefits the sport in general. Without leadership in this area, it will be a dying carcas torn apart by those wolves looking to scrap a few margin dollars out of the game before it rots away.
Robert Fischer
11-05-2008, 08:15 PM
#1 mass media broadcast is number 1
#2 then the effort has to be made to maximize pools
take all the $ from the 17 simultaneous broadcast races and put it into 1 race.
then multiply that times the number of new viewers from television propaganda.
then we have a big time thing going on. You might catch a race on a weekend with a pool size like the current kentucky derby.
#3
once you have a betting situation then you can focus on eliminating the medication advantages.
Imriledup
11-05-2008, 08:29 PM
I think everyone who’s posted to this thread has a very valid opinion. It’s clear by the responses that racing has many problems and all need to be addressed.
However, in my opinion, racing’s biggest, most immediate, and most serious problem is the ADW issue. I think it’s fairly obvious. Even if one could waive a magic wand and cure all of the other problems mentioned in this thread it wouldn’t amount to a hill of beans if the general public can’t get down a bet. It’s the gambling dollar that fuels the industry and without it the industry is dead in the water.
From my personal experience I can tell you that my own handle is down significantly over the past two years. I’m a big fan of the pick-4 and the pick-6 and I used to greatly enjoy playing the guaranteed pools in California. Let’s look at some facts.
I’ll begin by pointing out that I’m a New York resident, not exactly a cultural or technological backwater. Since opening my very first ADW account with TVG years ago I’ve had to deal with:
-My TVG account being closed against my will due to some agreement between TVG and New York authorities banning TVG from offering services to New York residents.
-Having to open separate accounts with YouBet and xPressBet (due to exclusivity) in order to be able to have coverage for most major racing circuits.
-Having to throw my handicapping skills out the window when dirt tracks were replaced with synthetics in California and Kentucky.
-Currently being unable to bet California, Kentucky, and Florida due to ADW disputes.
-Currently being unable to access any online live video for any New York tracks.
Is it a shock to anyone that my wagering dollar remains in my pocket? The powers that be have gone to every effort to make it impossible and unenjoyable to bet and near unattainable to win. It defies common sense to be in the business of selling a product and then making it as difficult as possible for the customer to spend his dollar on your product. As handles decline and purses are cut the industry fiddles while Rome burns.
The solution is simple. Find a way to allow all ADWs to have access to all tracks and the ability to show all video signals in all states. That would, in a sense, fully open all spigots thereby allowing every horseplayer access to every track. That would fully maximize handle by removing all handcuffs from every player. Then it will be up to the customer as to whether he prefers to go to the track, go to an OTB, or to play online. If he can watch the video of every track online it can then be a personal decision as to which ADW site he prefers. A free market system will be established and it will force the ADW sites to innovate in terms of features and service. Personally I think YouBet is by far the most superior site on the Internet. Their interface is slick and aesthetically appealing, their Wager Pad makes entering bets very easy, and, as far as I can tell, they are the only online site that actually shows “will pays” for pick-4s and pick-6s, which I find astonishing. They are the only site that seems to implement upgrades and enhanced features from time-to-time and it’s sad to see their business suffer as it has.
Once that issue is resolved and handle stabilizes and possibly increases, then and only then can the other important issues such as drugs and integrity be addressed. If it were up to me I’d the tab synthetic surfaces as the second most relevant issue and focus on stopping the spread of synthetics and working toward getting the current synthetic tracks replaced with safe traditional dirt. US racing was founded on dirt races and the current population was bred for dirt. The move to unilaterally do away with and replace something as fundamental as the surface on which the game is played was reckless and poorly thought out. It threw under the bus both handicapper and horseman alike. It’s no shock to see Keeneland handle suffer when handicapping that surface is like throwing darts. California racing has now become two things; turf racing and synthetic racing that favors turf horses. The American dirt horse is left out in the cold, as clearly evidenced by results of this year’s Breeders Cup. I’m still waiting for any proponent of synthetic racing to explain how that’s a positive thing.
Solve those two problems and the racing industry, although still diseased, will at least find itself restored to firm footing from where further reforms and progress can be made and hopefully, with some sound decision making, find itself in a healthy growth mode.
I think this is more of an inconvienience than a problem. Just sign up for all the ADWs, its a one shot deal, its a one time thing. You sign up for every service out there and you take one business day and do it. Do it on a Monday when there's really no prime signals out there to wager on, you can spend your time signing up for every ADW that wants your business.
Sure, it would be nice to have one ADW fits all, but that's just not the way it works at this point. Its a mini pain to bother to do, but once you have it all taken care of, you don't have to worry about it again.
Charlie D
11-05-2008, 08:53 PM
I think this is more of an inconvienience than a problem. Just sign up for all the ADWs, its a one shot deal, its a one time thing. You sign up for every service out there and you take one business day and do it. Do it on a Monday when there's really no prime signals out there to wager on, you can spend your time signing up for every ADW that wants your business.
Sure, it would be nice to have one ADW fits all, but that's just not the way it works at this point. Its a mini pain to bother to do, but once you have it all taken care of, you don't have to worry about it again.
Coming from a country where you can bet on any track in UK/Ireland via any UK/Irish ADW you choose , i'd say it's a pain in backside and it has no place in 21st century
hibiscus
11-05-2008, 11:35 PM
I think this is more of an inconvienience than a problem. Just sign up for all the ADWs, its a one shot deal, its a one time thing. You sign up for every service out there and you take one business day and do it. Do it on a Monday when there's really no prime signals out there to wager on, you can spend your time signing up for every ADW that wants your business.
Sure, it would be nice to have one ADW fits all, but that's just not the way it works at this point. Its a mini pain to bother to do, but once you have it all taken care of, you don't have to worry about it again.
That’s a terrific, albeit inconvenient, solution.
However, it’s my understanding that the horsemen in California, Kentucky, and Florida have withheld approval of out-of-state ADW wagering for all ADWs. It’s also my understanding that New York State racing and wagering board has withheld the New York live videos from all ADWs to in-state residents. As such, I don’t think your solution solves my immediate problem or the problem for most other horse players in the country.
If I’m incorrect please let me know.
Steve 'StatMan'
11-05-2008, 11:57 PM
Too many problems. Some listed above. Some affect the experienced fan, and the mid-level to serious bettors. Others affect the beginners and the outsiders that we either need to attract, or could quiet their naysaying (whips, perceived animal abuse, too high a learning curve, handicapping too much like school homework.) Too many problems to tackle, not enough money or attention on them all. Plus with casinos/racinos, some tracks don't really have to fix any of those problems to stay in business, just try to keep their racing losses in control.
ranchwest
11-06-2008, 02:06 AM
I didn’t vote Doug because I couldn’t find the “all of the above” selection.
Even though I agree with 90% of what is written above the main issue that drives me insane is pool integrity. :mad:
The drugging of defenseless animals (that is actually defrauding the wagering public and should be prosecuted as such.) The ADW debacle, insane tax rates, lack of full disclosure with equipment / medications etc…all demand immediate attention; but who can overcome some criminal past posting? :mad:
That's a danged good post, but I think it really all STARTS with customer service. There is none. Everything else just goes down the tubes from there. If there was anyone who was customer-driven, these other problems would all go away in time.
Imriledup
11-06-2008, 03:01 AM
That’s a terrific, albeit inconvenient, solution.
However, it’s my understanding that the horsemen in California, Kentucky, and Florida have withheld approval of out-of-state ADW wagering for all ADWs. It’s also my understanding that New York State racing and wagering board has withheld the New York live videos from all ADWs to in-state residents. As such, I don’t think your solution solves my immediate problem or the problem for most other horse players in the country.
If I’m incorrect please let me know.
No, you're not incorrect, i just think that there are real problems in racing, like high takeout and drugs/cheating that are really crippling the game. Finding a way to get a bet down on the track of your choice(s) is a personal inconvienience and not as much of a problem as most things. Sure, in a perfect world, everything would be hunky dory and you would be able to bet any track at any time with one provider, but i think i'd rather have a drug free game and a 10% take across the board as the first two things that need to be 'fixed'.
RichieP
11-06-2008, 04:10 AM
1) Greed
2) Mismanagement
3) No centralized governing body
4) No long range planning/vision
5) Greed
6) Drugs
7) Good ol boy network
8) Greed
proliferation of "other" gambling outlets.
people do not have the time to go to the track and spend all day ,even if they had the inclination.
it's a slow death, no matter what minor changes may ever get adopted.
You can drive by any casino or keno joint and then check out a local simo and the makeup and numbers of the crowd tell the tale.
The pie is getting smaller all the time and that isn't going to change now.
I do not believe that just the "gambling" end of the "sport" will ever be able to compete for new players and since none of them are going to the track and since 80% of the race tracks are slums how would new players get hooked?
Imriledup
11-06-2008, 08:47 AM
1) Greed
2) Mismanagement
3) No centralized governing body
4) No long range planning/vision
5) Greed
6) Drugs
7) Good ol boy network
8) Greed
Explain your definition of greed to me. I think all businesses want and need to do as well as they can, but what can racetracks do to make as much money as possible and yet, at the same time, not be greedy? Is there a point where they say "ok, lets not make as much as we can, lets leave some on the table".
I'm not disagreeing with you that everyone is greedy, i think the word greed and its concept as it relates to racing is worth further discussion.
boomman
11-06-2008, 08:58 AM
Coming from a country where you can bet on any track in UK/Ireland via any UK/Irish ADW you choose , i'd say it's a pain in backside and it has no place in 21st century
Charlie: Spot on! It is absolutely ridiculous that certain tracks aren't offering their signals to ALL ADW's, and IMHO there is an easy solution to this from a player's perspective. DON'T bet them! Don't reward their stupidity by "searching" for that one ADW that may be available. Shut 'em out and if everyone does this we'll see how long this stalemate lasts!:mad:
Boomer
miesque
11-06-2008, 10:44 AM
Personally, I think the answer to the poll is all of the above. There are so many issues in horse racing which need to be addressed that its a bit overwhelming when you review them as a whole. However, I think the ADW issues are becoming more and more important as an immediate short-term issue with potentially dramatic long term effects as more and more tracks become unavailable to those who wish to play them. It is my opinion that there is no other issue that illustrates the level of dysfunctionality that exists in the industry then the growing ADW crisis. This SHOULD be a non-issue. I should be able to bet any track I want using one account. That is not a horseplayer right but simply a very basic good business practice. I also think no other issue has the ability to create as much collateral damage over a relatively short period of time, especially during the current economic downturn.
kenwoodallpromos
11-06-2008, 11:33 AM
New ways of marketing ANY product have to keep evolving, and racing's has not. No ONE is holding comprehensive TBred marketing seminarswhile strategizing about quotas in breeding and logistics targeting racing, betting, and businesses in between.
There is stil little effort to reach AND educate the masses about racing and betting, and making being a "fan" relavent.
I belive no sport can survive on public Bettiing without REAL "fan" non-betting support.
Someone also needs to put out a real "guide to Thoroughbred race watching" for the public pointing out the similarities and differences between types of races and what goes on during the racing "trip" of a horse.
Racing is actually hard to figure out for novices while watching.
LottaKash
11-06-2008, 01:13 PM
ADW's are here to stay......Face the Music Racetracks,,,,,Change or Die......
Charlie D
11-06-2008, 01:35 PM
Personally, I think the answer to the poll is all of the above. There are so many issues in horse racing which need to be addressed that its a bit overwhelming when you review them as a whole. However, I think the ADW issues are becoming more and more important as an immediate short-term issue with potentially dramatic long term effects as more and more tracks become unavailable to those who wish to play them. It is my opinion that there is no other issue that illustrates the level of dysfunctionality that exists in the industry then the growing ADW crisis. This SHOULD be a non-issue. I should be able to bet any track I want using one account. That is not a horseplayer right but simply a very basic good business practice. I also think no other issue has the ability to create as much collateral damage over a relatively short period of time, especially during the current economic downturn.
You can see it's good business practice, i can see it's good business practice , others can see it's good business practice, so it begs question, why don't the racing organisations see it the same way
LottaKash
11-06-2008, 01:55 PM
You can see it's good business practice, i can see it's good business practice , others can see it's good business practice, so it begs question, why don't the racing organisations see it the same way
CharlieD, I suspect it is because they are too busy admiring the "Emperor's New Clothes".......hahaha...........
best,
The racing information industry.
The prosective new fan is quickly instructed that he should buy a lot of accompanying products in order to increase chances for winning.
The prospective new fan is taught by grandpa's experience with that concept.
He follows in his father's footsteps to the casino.
The racing information industry has never taught the player how to play the game, if it did they would work themselves out of a job.
The racing industry has never taught the player how to play the game either, it needs to start doing so, right now.
jdl
--
Sorry I don't know how to double quote,,,,The Bottom is from Jaco P
--------------------------------
I didn’t vote Doug because I couldn’t find the “all of the above” selection.
Even though I agree with 90% of what is written above the main issue that drives me insane is pool integrity. :mad:
The drugging of defenseless animals (that is actually defrauding the wagering public and should be prosecuted as such.) The ADW debacle, insane tax rates, lack of full disclosure with equipment / medications etc…all demand immediate attention; but who can overcome some criminal past posting? :mad:
__________________
Dan G
=======================
"There Is Something about the outside of a Horse That Is Good for the inside of a Man." ~ Winston Churchill
joanied
11-07-2008, 04:31 PM
I voted for 'integrity' but I agree it is 'all of the above'. I can't speak about the handicapping part, except to say that every track needs to have a place for newbies to go and learn how to handicap...betting has become so confusing to the avergare person (race fan) that I would have to say they have no clue about what they are doing.
Oh, it was so easy back 'in the day', when the most exotic wager was a trifecta!!!! So, at least at the larger tracks, if not all tracks, a place needs to be set up where folks can sit down and learn the 'ropes' via race track employees that can 'teach' a handicapping class in a short period of time, that'll give a newbie at least the basics of betting. That's a tall order, but the only way I can see that would be available for folks to learn how to bet, and have fun doing it.
Customer service, I gather from posts here from members that get out to the tracks, is very lacking. I also assume many tracks are less than appealing in their upkeep...run down, dirty...all that negative stuff...and as far as I can see, there is no excuse for not keeping a track, any track, in tiptop shape..clean, good food, enough tellers so lines at the windwos are not long, good seating, comfortable in both hot & cold weather, a place for families to entertain kids (play areas), paddock areas that afford everyone a view of the horses, good food...and all of this needs to come at an affordable price.
Safety, drugs ect. I think that is finally being taken care of, but not fast enough, I beleive the best way to get rid of the notion that every horse racing is drugged is to ban all drugs, period...but, the drug issue & track surface issues are a work in progress...the powers that be best hurry up.
Marketing...now here is something 'they' can work on, it's so easy...they have to advertise racing on prime time TV. There are so many great angles they can use to advertise racing...great film footage, great music, maybe some humor, defintely something that stirs the emotions...
get jocks and trainers in these ads, we have several that are 'star' material, well spoken, good looking, even funny...use them in ads. Use the horses...
get ads in during other sport programs...NFL, NBA ect. I see good race ads on TV....but always during a race show...is that not preaching to the chior? Get ads on primetime networks.
That's my two cents...
Bruddah
11-07-2008, 08:19 PM
While many great points have been made, I have narrowed my list of what's wrong with thoroughbrd racing and it's management to, they have never learned to put the paying customer first, and understand how to capture the youger players and teach them how to play. If they need a prime example of how to do both, look to the Casino's for a business model. Even those facilities which have been allowed to become Racino's do not understand this business philosopy.
Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that Racing mgmt. is nothing but a bunch of inbred, blue blood morons. They are good at propping their feet on the desk and waiting for business to come to them. Better yet, they are better at holding Symposiums at expensive retreats. All in the name of looking busy at trying to solve Industry problems. Idiots! :lol:
Hajck Hillstrom
11-08-2008, 12:10 AM
Thank you all for contributing, as it does my heart good to hear such astute POV's. Some almost echoing my perspective verbatim.
Recognizing the problem is the first step, and now we must address the solutions.
Part III in my series on the H.A.N.A. Blog will attempt to do that, and I will be directing readers to this thread supporting some of the issues.
jonnielu
11-08-2008, 06:46 PM
Thank you all for contributing, as it does my heart good to hear such astute POV's. Some almost echoing my perspective verbatim.
Recognizing the problem is the first step, and now we must address the solutions.
Part III in my series on the H.A.N.A. Blog will attempt to do that, and I will be directing readers to this thread supporting some of the issues.
Hajck,
Direct Nick Nicholson to this thread, there is a reason that Keeneland loves you back.
jdl
Charlie D
11-09-2008, 12:03 AM
Charlie: Spot on! It is absolutely ridiculous that certain tracks aren't offering their signals to ALL ADW's, and IMHO there is an easy solution to this from a player's perspective. DON'T bet them! Don't reward their stupidity by "searching" for that one ADW that may be available. Shut 'em out and if everyone does this we'll see how long this stalemate lasts!:mad:
Boomer
Been thinking about this last and i think it's only way things will change Boomer
Which tracks, horsemen deserve our bucks???
I don't expect anyone here to agree with my opinion but here are the two biggest factors in my view:
1). Rebates. These effectively increase the takeout on the casual player and are a significant barrier to new players taking an interest. If any track executives are reading they should take a look at the takeout on-track i.e. for every $1 bet on track how much is paid out on-track. I suspect the answer is sufficiently ugly that they might then wonder why they expect anyone to want to come back.
2). The increasingly bad horseman's economics. Many here have suggested that if they do not like the way things are they should get out of the business. You may get your wish to a greater degree than you expect and it is not clear to me how much of any of it will be standing at the end of the day.
Here is the other item on my list:
3). Outdated technology used to gather bets and compute prices. Odds and prices at smaller tracks change dramatically in the last minute which I would guess has more to do with the posting of the bets than when the bets are actually made.
Imriledup
11-09-2008, 08:59 AM
I don't expect anyone here to agree with my opinion but here are the two biggest factors in my view:
1). Rebates. These effectively increase the takeout on the casual player and are a significant barrier to new players taking an interest. If any track executives are reading they should take a look at the takeout on-track i.e. for every $1 bet on track how much is paid out on-track. I suspect the answer is sufficiently ugly that they might then wonder why they expect anyone to want to come back.
2). The increasingly bad horseman's economics. Many here have suggested that if they do not like the way things are they should get out of the business. You may get your wish to a greater degree than you expect and it is not clear to me how much of any of it will be standing at the end of the day.
Pool sizes are bigger because of rebates. How does a higher pool size hurt the casual player? The bigger the pool size for the 50 dollar bettor, the less of a chance that his 50 win bet will knock his horse from 6.20 to 6.00. Once in while a 50 dollar bet will knock a horse down 20 cents. This would happen LESS in a 100k win pool as opposed to a 50k win pool. Just more money for the casual player, i don't see how this is bad.
onefast99
11-10-2008, 08:07 AM
The major issue in my state(NJ)is marketing. The same group that marketed these tracks since the early 80's continue to promote the same failed marketing strategies. The no Sunday racing in NJ once the racing shifts to the Meadowlands is inexcusable. MP can handle an early bird card and battle Aqueduct at least until Thanksgiving. The state continues to let the casinos dictate to them how racing will be run in NJ. I dont know if any of the other states have these issues but based upon some of the comments thus far it seems a few need better marketing and management.
ezrabrooks
11-10-2008, 10:28 AM
2). The increasingly bad horseman's economics. Many here have suggested that if they do not like the way things are they should get out of the business. You may get your wish to a greater degree than you expect and it is not clear to me how much of any of it will be standing at the end of the day.[/QUOTE]
Yep, let the real whining begin... when we start having full fields of $2500 claimers filling up the majority of the cards.. Then the question will be..what happened to those greedy horseman?
Ez
DeanT
11-11-2008, 01:35 AM
Yep, let the real whining begin... when we start having full fields of $2500 claimers filling up the majority of the cards.. Then the question will be..what happened to those greedy horseman?
Ez
It will never happen like that. If owners started leaving, the first thing to drop would be the number of racedates, and number of races. Supply of racedates will be eased to meet demand so that price can encourage investment. So, if you have $10M for a purse pool you race 15 days instead of 40 and your average purse would go up by 300% and horse owners would buy horses. Higher purses draws better quality stock and the game becomes heavily ROI positive again.
With fans screaming for less racing this is not a point that I think horse owners should bring up. It does them no good at all in the court of public opinion. This is especially true because empirical handle data from other jurisdictions show that when racedates are dropped it has no appreciable handle drop as fans play the races in front of them and the fuller fields and "non-wall to wall racing" is a more pleasurable customer experience.
ezrabrooks
11-11-2008, 05:51 AM
"It will never happen like that". I am always suspicious anytime some one throws out the phrase 'never will happen', when discussing a business out come. Ask the boys at Lehman, AIG, etc. about 'never will happen'.
DeanT
11-11-2008, 10:50 AM
When Lehman or AIG go out of business there is still insurance and stock brokerages. There are 52,000 races run in the USA at an average purse of $19000. Cut them in half with people leaving and you have 26,000 races (still the most by far in the world) racing for $38000. $2500 claimers do not race for $38,000. Horse quality will go up.
ezrabrooks
11-11-2008, 12:49 PM
When Lehman or AIG go out of business there is still insurance and stock brokerages. There are 52,000 races run in the USA at an average purse of $19000. Cut them in half with people leaving and you have 26,000 races (still the most by far in the world) racing for $38000. $2500 claimers do not race for $38,000. Horse quality will go up.
And what has that got to do with 'never'? That was my point. Yeah, those other firms are tearing them up right now, with the decrease in competition.
So if you cut the number of races in half..the purse structure on the remaining races will be a certain lock to increase to twice the original amount? Are you sure about that?
DeanT
11-11-2008, 01:06 PM
Hi EZ,
The racing data seems to say so.
http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/2008/02/global-perspect.html
We run way too many races in this country, and less product would probably not mean a decrease in total betting or purses, given the evidence elsewhere.
ezrabrooks
11-11-2008, 02:00 PM
Hi EZ,
The racing data seems to say so.
http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/2008/02/global-perspect.html
Thanks...but I find Blogs like ass holes...every body has one, so what's the point?
DeanT
11-11-2008, 02:06 PM
Thanks...but I find Blogs like ass holes...every body has one, so what's the point?
That data is the Jockey Club fact book data, which is (I think) the most comprehensive data of world wide racing. We can deduce much of it, imo.
Then again, I just finished Super Crunchers (http://www.randomhouse.com/bantamdell/supercrunchers/) so I am on a data binge.
DeanT
11-17-2008, 05:25 PM
Hjack has posted his summary of this thread and some chat about posters here, and racing in general in Part III of his "Why I Left Racing" Series, that is posted on HANAblog.
If you are interested his story is here:
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2008/11/why-i-left-racing-part-iii.html
Zman179
11-17-2008, 09:27 PM
I definitely would have hit the "all" button in this poll.
Bruddah
02-01-2011, 04:15 PM
I definitely would have hit the "all" button in this poll.
The most obvious answer, and not among the choices is, INBRED management which has an entitlement attitude.
fmolf
02-01-2011, 06:34 PM
my top 3 is as follows:
1)excessive takeout is the obvious for obvious reasons and is the main reason gamblers have moved to other forms of gambling.
2)too much racing is the reason why fields are short in a lot of jurisdictions.
3)marketing is terrible....new fans need to be turned on to the game ....but they do not make it attractive to younger males....get the young colts to the track on fri and sat night and the fillies will follow.
thaskalos
02-01-2011, 07:03 PM
Racing's biggest problem is that it has lost the little integrity it had...along with its better customers - who no longer have the confidence in the game to bet the amounts of money they once did.
50% winning trainers, rampant drug use, slap-on-the-wrist fines for the drug offenders, repeated after-the-bell-betting incidents...and no policing measures in sight.
Any gambling game with no integrity is doomed to failure.
Bullet Plane
02-01-2011, 11:18 PM
Racing's biggest problem is that it has lost the little integrity it had...along with its better customers - who no longer have the confidence in the game to bet the amounts of money they once did.
50% winning trainers, rampant drug use, slap-on-the-wrist fines for the drug offenders, repeated after-the-bell-betting incidents...and no policing measures in sight.
Any gambling game with no integrity is doomed to failure.
I pretty much have to agree. There is no intesinal fortitude at all in the industry to get it right. By the way, what's the latest on the Life at Ten situation at Churchill?
More head in the sand?
Charlie D
02-02-2011, 12:13 AM
Racing's biggest problem is that it has lost the little integrity it had...along with its better customers - who no longer have the confidence in the game to bet the amounts of money they once did.
50% winning trainers, rampant drug use, slap-on-the-wrist fines for the drug offenders, repeated after-the-bell-betting incidents...and no policing measures in sight.
Any gambling game with no integrity is doomed to failure.
I think it's called, shooting oneself in the foot.
PaceAdvantage
02-02-2011, 01:28 AM
I pretty much have to agree. There is no intesinal fortitude at all in the industry to get it right. By the way, what's the latest on the Life at Ten situation at Churchill?
More head in the sand?Gonna have to wait another week:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/61091/life-at-ten-probe-update-next-week?source=rss
MNslappy
02-02-2011, 02:36 AM
I miss Hajck Hillstrom.
Stillriledup
02-02-2011, 04:52 AM
Racing's biggest problem is that it has lost the little integrity it had...along with its better customers - who no longer have the confidence in the game to bet the amounts of money they once did.
50% winning trainers, rampant drug use, slap-on-the-wrist fines for the drug offenders, repeated after-the-bell-betting incidents...and no policing measures in sight.
Any gambling game with no integrity is doomed to failure.
The after the bell incidents are nothing compared to the money that's pilfered out of the pools by people, who otherwise can't handicap a shred, that have their money "land" on the right horses because they know which horses have illegal drugs and which ones do not.
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