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point given
10-31-2008, 10:10 AM
A new age whip is being tried at CD for the first couple of races each day. Evidently they are standard in steeplechase races and in England and Ireland. Here's the take on it along with pictures of the more horse friendly whip compared to the old style ones. Looks like a no brainer to switch to them and make them the standard to me.

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/newsimages/TackNewAgeWhip.pdf

joanied
10-31-2008, 11:45 AM
A new age whip is being tried at CD for the first couple of races each day. Evidently they are standard in steeplechase races and in England and Ireland. Here's the take on it along with pictures of the more horse friendly whip compared to the old style ones. Looks like a no brainer to switch to them and make them the standard to me.

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/newsimages/TackNewAgeWhip.pdf

Good article, lousy photo of the whip...even blown up...but I see no reason not to switch to this whip...a lot of the jocks won't like it...but, I say, tough...the change to this whip should be across the board and done right away...the jocks will adjust.

DanG
10-31-2008, 12:27 PM
Ban them…period the end.

My X has ridden horses most of her life and the animal has yet to be born she can’t handle without beating them. (Other then myself of course :) )

No brainier and instant public support…ban the whips yesterday.

As Joan alluded to…

• To any rider who says they can’t ride without one…find another line of work.
• To any animal that must be beaten to perform…they weren’t a genuine race horse to begin with and should not be subjected to our sport.

Greyfox
10-31-2008, 01:01 PM
Ban them…period the end.

My X has ridden horses most of her life and the animal has yet to be born she can’t handle without beating them. (Other then myself of course :) )

.

I'm not a fan of whips either. I suspect though that your EX has never been on a twelve hundred pound steed surrounded by 8 others moving at 35 miles an hour around turns. If she has then my comments are not on.

It is the jockey's that claim to need whips for Safety Purposes.
If that is the case, then banning them isn't the answer either.
This new whip seems exactly what we require.

DanG
10-31-2008, 01:25 PM
I'm not a fan of whips either. I suspect though that your EX has never been on a twelve hundred pound steed surrounded by 8 others moving at 35 miles an hour around turns. If she has then my comments are not on.

It is the jockey's that claim to need whips for Safety Purposes.
If that is the case, then banning them isn't the answer either.
This new whip seems exactly what we require.
Jerry Bailey would not agree with you and has joined forces to ban the whips. They are pure and simply a symbol of cruelty.

The riders who say they would ‘lose control are frankly full of it. That what rein’s are for…it all comes down to horsemanship. Ride with my X sometime flat out down a trail she doesn’t even know and tell me she needed a whip for control.

Our industry moves at a snail’s base in every way…this is yet another thing people will look back on as if we were Cro-Magnons. :ThmbDown:

Hajck Hillstrom
10-31-2008, 01:53 PM
They are pure and simply a symbol of cruelty.One of the major flaws in the game, and at the very least the humane whip will need to be mandated as a needed condition for me to return to it.

So elementary.

Yet another easy fix the sport refuses to act on.

When you step back and look at it objectively, it is really quite embarrassing for the game.

PaceAdvantage
10-31-2008, 01:54 PM
Jerry Bailey would not agree with you and has joined forces to ban the whips. They are pure and simply a symbol of cruelty.Is it just me, or when Jerry was riding, wasn't he one of the more punishing jockeys in terms of whip use? It sure looked at times like he was putting EVERYTHING he had into the swing of his arm. Interesting now that he has stopped riding, he has had a change of heart.

delayjf
10-31-2008, 01:57 PM
It is the jockey's that claim to need whips for Safety Purposes.
I'm for banning the whip as well, but. If the above is true, fine. But then Jockey's should only be allowed to use the whip for safety reasons, which would mean that the use of the whip would be rare and if used at all would be subject to review by the stewards. If it is used for safety reasons I would think those reasons would be obvious.

joanied
10-31-2008, 03:08 PM
This reply is aimed towards all the posts...easier that way:) ...

Right on about Bailey...he used the whip as much as any other jock...and his statements about banning them all together seems a bit hypocritical to me...didn't the Legends all use the whip in that race? Including Bailey?

I beleive this new whip is the answer...and as I mentioned, must be across the board (all tracks) and implimented yesterday...
as for riding without a whip, I also ride, and galloped horses, and if you've ever been up close to a horse race, you need to understand that using the riens to guide a running TB isn't always enough...you have those that lug in or out very badly, for whatever reason, and that whip can stop a wreck from happening...for safety reasons, jocks do need to carry a whip...and with all the video of every race, it would be almost impossible to get away with using it for any other purpose than to keep a horse going straight...also, a great many horses will respond to simply seeing the whip waved near his face...which I'm sure everyone here has seen a jock do.
So, IMO...bottom line is switch to this new whip and impliment rules concerning it's use.

DanG
10-31-2008, 03:10 PM
Is it just me, or when Jerry was riding, wasn't he one of the more punishing jockeys in terms of whip use? It sure looked at times like he was putting EVERYTHING he had into the swing of his arm. Interesting now that he has stopped riding, he has had a change of heart.
Fair point as far as Jerry’s timing is concerned. I needed a rider for an example as my X just isn’t pulling the Q rating Mr. Bailey is.

GaryG
10-31-2008, 03:16 PM
Maybe the penalty for excessive or abusive whip use should be tougher.....like getting whipped with it themselves. Ted Atkinson was a Hall of Famer who wasn't clalled "slasher" for nothing.

LottaKash
10-31-2008, 03:35 PM
Question:...With the new Whip, where do you put the batteries ?.....:jump:

best,

DanG
10-31-2008, 03:37 PM
using the riens to guide a running TB isn't always enough...you have those that lug in or out very badly, for whatever reason, and that whip can stop a wreck from happening...for safety reasons, jocks do need to carry a whip.
I respectfully disagree here.

I too have watched more races then I care to admit and I’ve seen the whip actually cause more altering course then it has prevented.

juanepstein
10-31-2008, 03:40 PM
i wanna see faster times so im all for a built in tazer system.

joanied
10-31-2008, 04:28 PM
I respectfully disagree here.

I too have watched more races then I care to admit and I’ve seen the whip actually cause more altering course then it has prevented.

Well, it works both ways... and in most cases, if whip use causes a horse to alter course, then that particular horse probably hates the whip as some horses will alter course or slow down when hit...and astute trainers should know this for any particular horse and instruct the jock accordingly.
You do not want to put riders & horses in jeopardy because they have no other alternative but the reins to keep a horse straight...
remember, you can't please everyone, but switching to the new whip and applying stringant rules for it's use is a good place to start....agreed?

DanG
10-31-2008, 04:44 PM
switching to the new whip and applying stringant rules for it's use is a good place to start....agreed?
Agreed it is a start; but in this case I’m not a big fan of half measures.

I do respect your opinion as you clearly have the games well being at heart and that of the participants. :ThmbUp: I hope I’m also coming from the same place.

joanied
10-31-2008, 06:52 PM
Agreed it is a start; but in this case I’m not a big fan of half measures.

I do respect your opinion as you clearly have the games well being at heart and that of the participants. :ThmbUp: I hope I’m also coming from the same place.


No doubt...you are...I'm sure we all are. Not sure if switching to the new whip and applying severe rules concerning it's use is a half measure... useing it to only keep a horse going straight is maybe something a jockey needs to address...not even the excersise riders in the morning can asnwer that because they are not surrounded by several other horses going top speed...
but, at least we all agree, the new whip is the way to go.

OH...yes indeed...my only concern IS the well being of the 'game' amd the horses and riders...fact is, I am such an animal lover that most often I'd rather spend my time with them than humans:eek: and the horse is part of my being...and the TB the love of my life... and it pleases me to see so many changes from 'back in the day' when I rubbed horses at Belmont... as far as the welfare of the horses, we have come a long way, baby:ThmbUp:

KirisClown
10-31-2008, 07:34 PM
Is it just me, or when Jerry was riding, wasn't he one of the more punishing jockeys in terms of whip use? It sure looked at times like he was putting EVERYTHING he had into the swing of his arm. Interesting now that he has stopped riding, he has had a change of heart.


I was thinking the same thing... I wonder if Jerry believes Grindstone would have won the Derby without some whip encouragement...

Shenanigans
10-31-2008, 09:43 PM
Anyone that thinks reins are enough control for a race horse have never ridden (or knows anyone that has ridden) one. A trail horse is easy to control with reins.
When you are riding a flighty-fast running-unresponsive to the bit in the mouth-heading for the gap to get off the track-horse, sometimes the whip is the only thing that might change it's mind.;)

joanied
11-01-2008, 10:24 AM
I was thinking the same thing... I wonder if Jerry believes Grindstone would have won the Derby without some whip encouragement...

If he does...his mind has gone bye-bye!!!

joanied
11-01-2008, 10:26 AM
Anyone that thinks reins are enough control for a race horse have never ridden (or knows anyone that has ridden) one. A trail horse is easy to control with reins.
When you are riding a flighty-fast running-unresponsive to the bit in the mouth-heading for the gap to get off the track-horse, sometimes the whip is the only thing that might change it's mind.;)

Pretty much what I said... jocks need that whip for control, and if used for just that purpose (the new whip) I can't see anyone but 'radicals', and folks that just don't realize what goes on during the running of a race, objecting.
:)

DanG
11-01-2008, 10:51 AM
Anyone that thinks reins are enough control for a race horse have never ridden (or knows anyone that has ridden) one. A trail horse is easy to control with reins.
When you are riding a flighty-fast running-unresponsive to the bit in the mouth-heading for the gap to get off the track-horse, sometimes the whip is the only thing that might change it's mind.;)
With all due respect…
http://lakeandhalsted.com/home/baloney4.jpg

The reason industry people hesitate at all about abolishing whips is it “encourages” animals to run faster whose heart is not in racing. This lack of racing instinct is more prevalent then we think given our incredibly bloated foal crop.

maxwell
11-01-2008, 11:21 AM
What about extra long whips that the rider can dangle in front of the horse's nose? Peppermints or carrots could be used as bait to get the horse into another gear. Kinda like dog racing where they chase Bugs Bunny around the track. :D

I don't like whips for the simple reason that some riders bring their personal problems to work with them, and their mounts sometimes pay the price for the rider's lack of anger management. Todd Kabel is a perfect example of that. He was fined and set down several times, and came close to being ruled off the track if he didn't clean up his act. I am happy to report that he overcame his problems. I hope he can do the same with his weight problems which have surfaced in the last couple of years. :)

joanied
11-01-2008, 11:52 AM
With all due respect…
http://lakeandhalsted.com/home/baloney4.jpg

The reason industry people hesitate at all about abolishing whips is it “encourages” animals to run faster whose heart is not in racing. This lack of racing instinct is more prevalent then we think given our incredibly bloated foal crop.

Not sure I agree with that statement, except that we do have a bloated foal crop...although reports say bred mares are down about 7% for the '09 crop...which is a good thing. Still too many stallions being bred to over 100 mares per season.
With the economy the way it is, and folks now being pretty much forced to care for their horses (aka-retirement on the farm, at a facility or given away for a new career) maybe more mare owners will think twice about breeding just to get a race horse (with little or no ability).
And I think a horse that doesn't have his heart in racing usually won't or can't respond to the whip by running faster...they can only go as fast as they can go.

DanG
11-01-2008, 12:15 PM
We will never all agree on any issue; but most of us like to talk about attracting new fans to the game for example. I’m still waiting for the 1st person leaving a racetrack stating “I liked it, but if they only beat the animals more I might be back.” :bang:

Next time a track apron is empty (which is virtually any weekday) listen to all the riders keeping their horses on a “straight course”. If its dirt; all you hear is hooves, yelling and whips cracking. Just an incredible amount noise and abuse all supposedly in the name of rider ‘safety.

That’s it…my barrels are empty. It’s time to yell at a computer monitor over some lack of aggression by my riders. :D

joanied
11-01-2008, 02:50 PM
We will never all agree on any issue; but most of us like to talk about attracting new fans to the game for example. I’m still waiting for the 1st person leaving a racetrack stating “I liked it, but if they only beat the animals more I might be back.” :bang:

Next time a track apron is empty (which is virtually any weekday) listen to all the riders keeping their horses on a “straight course”. If its dirt; all you hear is hooves, yelling and whips cracking. Just an incredible amount noise and abuse all supposedly in the name of rider ‘safety.

That’s it…my barrels are empty. It’s time to yell at a computer monitor over some lack of aggression by my riders. :D

You kinda lost me now...true, we can't possibly all agree on any given issue, and it's obvious you are completely against the use of whips...I agree about all the noise during a race, but except for 'cracking whips'...the noise is part of the excitment, and any fan that can hear the jocks yelling can appreciate what goes on within the confines of a race...but you mention when the race is on dirt, so I assume you also advocate all tracks going synthetic.
Please understand me, DanG, I LOVE the TB, I am an animal lover to a fault, and there is alot I'd like to see change with racing...I don't agree completley about syntheic surfaces, they have not been prooven 100% safe as yet, and seem to be the cause of other types in injuries to the horses, and there are a few very safe dirt tracks, in fact, done correctly, all dirt tracks can be as safe as any track surface can be...but back to that whip thing...I stick to my guns that a jock has to have a whip for safety sake, not to beat a horse with, we already have rules about that, they need to be stricktly enforced and made even tougher.
I don't think the reason for empty grandstands & aprons falls completely on the subject of safety, it's a lot of things, OTB & online betting are one reason...another is the fact our best horses retire too soon, so fans haven't got a horse to follow like in the good old days, another is most tracks just don't make the race day experience a good one for fans, run down facilities, poor PR...the list goes on & on.....but, I think I'm done with this post...have you yelled at your monitor enough now to feel better;)
I hope racing can gain back it's old glory, DanG...and we've got a long way to go as far as that is concerned.

DanG
11-01-2008, 03:28 PM
You kinda lost me now...true, we can't possibly all agree on any given issue, and it's obvious you are completely against the use of whips...I agree about all the noise during a race, but except for 'cracking whips'...the noise is part of the excitment, and any fan that can hear the jocks yelling can appreciate what goes on within the confines of a race...but you mention when the race is on dirt, so I assume you also advocate all tracks going synthetic.

Please understand me, DanG, I LOVE the TB, I am an animal lover to a fault, and there is alot I'd like to see change with racing...I don't agree completley about syntheic surfaces, they have not been prooven 100% safe as yet, and seem to be the cause of other types in injuries to the horses, and there are a few very safe dirt tracks, in fact, done correctly, all dirt tracks can be as safe as any track surface can be...but back to that whip thing...I stick to my guns that a jock has to have a whip for safety sake, not to beat a horse with, we already have rules about that, they need to be stricktly enforced and made even tougher.

I don't think the reason for empty grandstands & aprons falls completely on the subject of safety, it's a lot of things, OTB & online betting are one reason...another is the fact our best horses retire too soon, so fans haven't got a horse to follow like in the good old days, another is most tracks just don't make the race day experience a good one for fans, run down facilities, poor PR...the list goes on & on.....but, I think I'm done with this post...have you yelled at your monitor enough now to feel better;)

I hope racing can gain back it's old glory, DanG...and we've got a long way to go as far as that is concerned.
Well Joan where do I start,

I think we need teleconferencing if my post led to that many unintended conclusions. :blush:

It seems like three days I typed that so please forgive me here; why I brought up dirt was a poor attempt to illustrate the sounds of the game and pointing out just how often whipping takes place. Pure and simple; 99.9% of slashing the animal is to encourage speed.

My thinking in bringing up the sounds stems from the fist time I took my step-daughter to a race was at Gulfstream and she was struck by how often the whips were used and the force exerted. The rest of the post was just a clumsy way of trying to convey something while watching replays at the same time! :blush:

No; I can’t enter another synthetic / dirt debate and I didn’t mention dirt for that reason at all. (It was just part of the GP example that happened to be on dirt)

As far as the cracking of whips as part of the excitement; no I can’t agree there. Exciting to me was a Pincay hand ride at 15-1 and he can yell until his hearts content.

I probably just confused the issue further so allow me to get back to racing.

Enjoy Joan; more people like you and every living creature will benefit. :ThmbUp:

Pace Cap'n
11-01-2008, 06:30 PM
Does anyone really think that a horse has the mental capacity to associate a whip waving past his face with that stinging sensation in his hind end?

Shenanigans
11-01-2008, 09:30 PM
Does anyone really think that a horse has the mental capacity to associate a whip waving past his face with that stinging sensation in his hind end?

Yes, they do. Haven't you ever heard a jockey say "I showed him the whip and he took off"? There were a few horses I use to gallop that liked to act up. All I had to do with them was "show" them the whip and they would straighten up.

Pace Cap'n
11-01-2008, 11:07 PM
Perhaps, then, a jockey could carry a picture of a whip.

PaceAdvantage
11-01-2008, 11:12 PM
Does anyone really think that a horse has the mental capacity to associate a whip waving past his face with that stinging sensation in his hind end?How many race horses have you been around? It doesn't take much to change the focus of a Thoroughbred.

Waving a whip in his face is certainly enough to spark a desired reaction. If it didn't, why do you think jocks bother to show horses the whip?

DanG
11-01-2008, 11:43 PM
Does anyone really think that a horse has the mental capacity to associate a whip waving past his face with that stinging sensation in his hind end?
It’s conditioning; if you beat a dog with a rolled up newspaper it will develop a reaction when it sees a paper being rolled up.

I had a part wolf / husky and the previous owner hit it with a deck of cards when it entered the room during their game. Every time you would shuffle cards the remainder of his life he would go nuts.

I don’t see how this endorses the practice; but to each their own.

joanied
11-02-2008, 02:12 PM
Yes, they do. Haven't you ever heard a jockey say "I showed him the whip and he took off"? There were a few horses I use to gallop that liked to act up. All I had to do with them was "show" them the whip and they would straighten up.

Agreed....all horses are pro's at association... one reason some pasture horses run off when they see that person coming with a halter in their hand, and why those people that have those kinds of horses, put that halter behind their back!!!! In tests a horse learns to associate a certain shape with getting a treat...
so, yes, waving the whip does the trick :ThmbUp:

LottaKash
11-02-2008, 05:07 PM
Perhaps, then, a jockey could carry a picture of a whip.

Yes, and instead of dangling a carrot in front of him, he could then be rigged to have the picture of the whip dangling there....go baby go.....!!!.......:lol:

best,

point given
11-04-2008, 09:21 AM
Desormeaux and Triolo at CD ; who woulda thunk it ....:rolleyes:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081031/SPORTS08/810310552/1002/SPORTS

joanied
11-04-2008, 04:00 PM
Desormeaux and Triolo at CD ; who woulda thunk it ....:rolleyes:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20081031/SPORTS08/810310552/1002/SPORTS

That's just a couple of jocks...Kent D has never ben known as a good strong finisher anyway, one reason he relies on the whip so much... and I think if one jock can get used to the new whip, then they all can....I say tough crap, make 'em use the new whip wether they like it or not.

Steve 'StatMan'
11-11-2008, 10:31 PM
Here's a link to Stan Bergstein's column in DRF on 11/11/08

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=99838

joanied
11-12-2008, 10:39 AM
Here's a link to Stan Bergstein's column in DRF on 11/11/08

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=99838

ya gotta be a paid member to read that column:(

DanG
11-13-2008, 05:21 PM
ya gotta be a paid member to read that column:(
This link should work Joan;

http://www.harnesstracks.com/2008DRF/drfnov122008.htm

Blurb from Stan’s column;

It is an evil, like Lasix, that has become so deeply ingrained in the sport that it is a stain almost impossible to remove.

The bottom line, however, is that all of these jockeys are talking about inflicting pain to get results. In essence, they are saying you need to hurt a horse in order to get and keep his attention, or provide "encouragement," the euphemism of the day.

Seven years have passed, some new rules are in place, and experimentation like that in Kentucky and Ontario is under way. No amount of research, however, can accurately measure the silent exodus of those disgusted with what they clearly see.

As long as the inmates make the calls, progress will be painfully slow, and public perception, which looks askance at committees and pious pronouncements, instead favoring action, will continue, in John Russell's words, "to leave us all squirming."