Black Magic - The Ultimate Handicaper

[infrontby1]

Anybody interested in purchasing the software at a reduced price with some Xtras including Handicapping Magic, 3rd edition on CD?

Drop me a private line if you're interested.

[Wickel]

Black Magic has now been on the market for quite a few months. There was a flurry of debate in this forum early on, but nothing since. Just wondering what the "verdict" on BM is? After using it for several months, I'd like to hear what the "PA Magicians" have to say.

[Speed Figure]

This is his youtube page. http://www.youtube.com/user/MickeyPz

[Light]

FWIW,this was his take on the BC using BM:

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 1 Breeders Cup Marathon

3 unknowns, foreign horses, one of them the European champ Sixties Icon. I?ll take a small action bet on the 2, Add Heat, BLAM top oddsline pick and 20-1 morning line. This is a pass race.


October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 2 Breeders Cup Turf Sprint

Love the turf. Love sprints. Don?t love turf sprints.

Especially when they have to turn right, run down a hill, and hit a patch of dirt during the race. I pass these even when there is not a group of 14 well meant horses in the race!

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 3 Breeders Cup Mile

When Black Magic Ultimate Handicapper Software?s Oddsline puts the same horses near the top as the morning line favorites, I lose interest in the race as a betting proposition. In this race the ML favorite, the 8, Well Armed is the BLAM top odds, followed by the third ML favorite the 1, Lewis Michael, and the 4th BLAM odds choice is the second ML favorite, 7, Albertus Maximus. There?s a long price in there, the 5, Two Step Salsa, third in the BLAM odds, but the ML favorites on top are enough for me to say El Paso.

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 4 Breeders Cup Mile

A nice turf race. Unfortunately, the ML favorite is the 4 Goldkova, an Irish horse making its first start in the US, having run in France. There are no Advanced Form Patterns in the race, the top 5 BLAM odds are the 2, 8, 5, 11, and 3. The 8 is second BLAM odds, balanced as a Value Tech horse, and will be dismissed as a state bred. It?s not a world beater, but at 25-1 or so, I may have a few dollars on it. There are three horses coming from a Reversal race, the 9, 10, and 1. They have the top PPFs in the race (along with the 11), so I can see a super box 1,8, 9,10, 11, and perhaps one with the top 5 BLAM odds. Another mystery race.
October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 5 Breeders Cup Juvenile

Hooray, I may have found a possible value play!

BLAM Oddsline has three horses from a reversal race, the 6, 11, and 8 right on top, with the 8, Street Hero, being the reversal winner. The 6, Silent Valor is one of the reversers, and a 5 Star Reverser to boot (coming into this race 3rd start after a layoff. It won, then finished a nice relaxing 5th. That was either because it couldn?t handle the distance (what the crowd will be betting) or because it was a prep for this race and was not punished in the race. 15-1 morning line.

I will bet this horse.

I?ll use the others from the reversal with the 6, the 11 and 8, and will use the 3, the Fulcrum who is 4th on the BLAM oddsline. Whether I can save with the 1 and 4 will depend on the prices. But I will treat the foreign horse, the 12, Bushranger, as a first time starter, and put it on top of the 3, 6, 8, and 11 in tris and supers.

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 6 Juvenile Turf

A mess of a race to handicap, 3 foreign horses making their US debut, maidens and maiden winners last out with good numbers trying Breeders Cup, no thanks.

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 7 Breeders Cup Sprint

Yay. I look forward all year to the Breeders Cup Sprint. It invariably comes up heavy pressure, and I really enjoy heavy pressure sprint races.

This year, there?s two Accupressure closers in Black Magic, and they are the only two S horses in the race. One of them is on top of the BLAM odds line.

What is the catch? The top horse is the 2, Street Boss, the 3-1 morning line favorite. Right on top of the BLAM odds line. I?d love to bet this horse at 6-1, as I?d love it if my dog could sing Nessun Dorma in the morning to wake me up rather than yelping at random.

The other closer, the 4, Midnight Lute, is the second morning line favorite, and way down on the BLAM odds line.

Street Boss has put down some SUB 23 (that is 23, not 24) final fractions, and that, sports fans, is race horse time. Fair price? Probably 7 to 2. I?d take 4-1 on this horse. Love the fundamentals of this race, don?t think I?ll get my price.

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 8 Breeders Cup Turf

12 furlongs on the turf with 7, yes 7, unknowns (foreign horses running in the US first time). Darn if I know what is going on in this race. A pass. As a hunch bet, Matt Russell, one of the Wizard Forum moderators, really likes the Red Rock Casino Hotel in Vegas, and the 7 horse, Red Rock Canyon, has the top Dan Serra Ultimate Sire Rating number in the race, a flashy 250.

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 9 Breeders Cup Classic

News Flash. Curlin is a good race horse. He deserves to be the favorite, and he could well win his second BC Classic in a row. 7/5 morning line, cannot bet him or do I really want to bet against him.

BLAM puts the 6 horse, Smooth Air, 50-1 morning line, on top of Curlin. Ran well in the Florida Derby, second behind a race horse you may have heard of, Big Brown, broke poorly in the Derby, came back to win the Ohio Derby, 3rd in the Pennsylvania Derby, and then won a handicap at Calder on the turf last out.

Why not? Not a serious bet, but this is a horse third off a layoff that could be in the exotics at a price. I?ll box Curlin, the 9, with the 6, Smooth Air, and use the 1, Go Between, the 2, Casino Drive (the Fulcrum), and the 7 Student Council in the tris and supers.

[RichieP]

I?d love to bet this horse at 6-1, as I?d love it if my dog could sing Nessun Dorma in the morning to wake me up rather than yelping at random.



:lol::lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VATmgtmR5o4

[jk3521]

:ThmbDown: Mr. Pizzloa's Black Magic selections won't be attracting any buyers for his software.

[Speed Figure]

:ThmbDown: Mr. Pizzloa's Black Magic selections won't be attracting any buyers for his software.
You can't judge a program off of 1 day.

[JustRalph]

You can't judge a program off of 1 day.

Damn right. Especially a screwy day like the Breeders Cup............

[David-LV]

:ThmbDown: Mr. Pizzola's Black Magic selections won't be attracting any buyers for his software.

Mike Pizzola's software programs including Black Magic have many successful
users.

His programs although overpriced are among the best out there.

Interpretation of any handicapping software is key, but only part of the equation. Betting and structuring of your tickets is a lot more important.

On big days like The Breeders Cup with so many unknown factors including new and different surfaces, not many players can bet with confidence.

BTW: I myself have used many different programs through the years and still have not overcome the large take out of pari-mutual wagering.

__________
David

[jfb]

:lol::lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VATmgtmR5o4

Thanks for the link. Makes up for looking at all that Breeder's Cup handicapping that ignores the foreign horses.

My dog can hit the high c but misses some of the other notes/

[RichieP]

Thanks for the link. Makes up for looking at all that Breeder's Cup handicapping that ignores the foreign horses.

My dog can hit the high c but misses some of the other notes/

2 more for ya from the greatest ever (not Luciano :eek:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9H9TiBYvVI&feature=related

this is amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lStSlrxDZ8

[Maxspa]

All,
My take on Black Magic is as follows: It is an expensive program, with new features, one of which designates race types at tracks all over the country that can be brought up on a screen with a click of a mouse. The software includes some time tested approaches and some new ones, has a difficult learning curve and is longshot oriented.
The support given to purchasers is second to none, with monthly DVDs that explain techniques, one can utilize in his or her handicapping. IMHO the most important aspect of the program is the sharing that takes place on the Wizards Forum. People, who take part, are beginning , intermediate and expert handicappers who are not afraid to share their successful approaches with the program. It is one of the most positive places to discuss handicapping and develop a winning strategy!
Maxspa

[TurfRuler]

FWIW,this was his take on the BC using BM:

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 1 Breeders Cup Marathon

BLAM

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 2 Breeders Cup Turf Sprint

Love the turf. Love sprints. Don?t love turf sprints.

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 3 Breeders Cup Mile

BLAM BLAM

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 4 Breeders Cup Mile

BLAM BLAM BLAM

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 5 Breeders Cup Juvenile

BLAM I will bet this horse. BLAM.

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 6 Juvenile Turf

A mess of a race to handicap.

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 7 Breeders Cup Sprint

Yay. I look forward all year to the Breeders Cup Sprint. BLAM. BLAM. BLAM.


October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 8 Breeders Cup Turf

A pass.

October 25, 2008 Santa Anita Race 9 Breeders Cup Classic

News Flash. Curlin is a good race horse. BLAM
Why not? Not a serious bet I'll box Curlin, the 9, with the 6, Smooth Air, and use the 1, Go Between, the 2, Casino Drive (the Fulcrum), and the 7 Student Council in the tris and supers.

I like Sonny and Cher's version better, and I would rather hear it than read the results the next day to find out how much I lost. (Bang, Bang, He Shot Me Down, My Baby Shot Me Down).

[completebill]

2 more for ya from the greatest ever (not Luciano :eek:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9H9TiBYvVI&feature=related

this is amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lStSlrxDZ8

Isn't that terrific?! Thanks for sharing. His rare gift (which Pavoratti had, too) was the beauty is the rare beauty of the soft passages.

[Wickel]

All,
My take on Black Magic is as follows: It is an expensive program, with new features, one of which designates race types at tracks all over the country that can be brought up on a screen with a click of a mouse. The software includes some time tested approaches and some new ones, has a difficult learning curve and is longshot oriented.
The support given to purchasers is second to none, with monthly DVDs that explain techniques, one can utilize in his or her handicapping. IMHO the most important aspect of the program is the sharing that takes place on the Wizards Forum. People, who take part, are beginning , intermediate and expert handicappers who are not afraid to share their successful approaches with the program. It is one of the most positive places to discuss handicapping and develop a winning strategy!
Maxspa


You hit the nail on the head about their customer service. I certainly experienced this when I first purchased TMM. My question to you is: When you talk about monthly dvds and the Wizard's Forum, is all this gratis with the purchase of Black Magic, or are you charged more for this?

[Maxspa]

Wickel,
The DVD's filled with handicapping suggestions are sent once and sometimes twice a month. They are part of the monthly package that any purchaser of Black Magic can choose to receive for a reasonable fee of $29.00. The $29.00 charge also gives you the privilege to participate on the Wizards Forum! I've already discussed the value of the forum in a previous thread In addition, you can subscribe to PostTime and get race files (any track they cover) plus result charts for an added charge.
Hope this Helps,
Maxspa

[Buckeye]

who cares really WHAT you're charged IF you're making more?

maybe I'm in the minority on this point. ;)

Black Magic costs about 1000 or 2000 dollars, so the freak what!

Is it worth more than that, and if so, by how much more?

Well, I for one (again) will not buy unless it's worth much more, and it looks like right now I'm not buying it as was my decision about 2 years ago. New ideas are hard to come by since they only come from outside what is normal and acceptable.

In my opinion, MP is only rehashing all the stuff he already said, with The Master Handicapper,TEH, and any of the "magician" stuff. I won't PAY more than I have to to lose my money-- I'm perfectly capable of doing that on my own.

[Buckeye]

It's not going to be that easy to win money in this game. You can't just go out and buy (by :) ) a computer program that will make the bucks roll in to you, why not? do I need explain further? MP is selling a program to you that will make money for you (after you PAY him for it of course). Why isn't he just a "winning" horseplayer and not also a software salesman?

Good question.

[Maxspa]

Buckeye,
I agree with your above statement! It isn't the price of the software, nor is it just the learning curve or using an effective betting strategy, It's all of the above and many more factors as well.
It is very important to select the right people to do business with! They have to have a successful handicapping background that has been verified
by as many knowlegeable people as possible. You may not like Michael Pizzola, his methods, his prices etc. but he has the handicapping background starting from his work in the Sartin group and then on his own for many years using his ideas to create several software programs from The Essential Handicapper up to his latest creation Black Magic. There are many other software developers David Schwartz-HSH, Gordon Pine-Net Capper, Ken Massa -HTR, Jeff Platt-J.Capper, C.J.M.- C.J's Pace Figures, to name a few that fit this scenario and have excellent software programs.
Will purchasing any of these programs help you make a profit? Maybe but in the real world there are other factors that play a role as well. Does the program have a difficult learning curve that you are able to handle? Do you have the handicapping background and knowledge to add your own expertise to develop a winning approach. When you have handicapped with the software over a period of time, do you feel confident that it is giving you a fair chance to be successful at the track? Do you have a wagering plan that will work with the program. Have you given the software a practice test over a couple of hundred races to determine its worth!
When advertised, the software makes a profit, but will it make a profit for me!! One has to answer that important question with trial runs and only then should you try to wager your money!
In summary, I believe a software must have a reputable developer! It should have a money back guarantee! There should be a forum to exchange handicapping ideas and approaches. You the buyer have a responsibility to do some work and incorporate solid handicappping ideas to add to the mix.
Finally, even then expect it may not be suited to your needs and continue your pursuit in a different direction.
Maxspa

[LottaKash]

Buckeye,
You the buyer have a responsibility to do some work and incorporate some solid handcappping ideas to add to the mix.


HaHa for $1-2K, what the heck is the software supposed to do ?....and all this for an additional $29-50 per month.....Phooey !

I have my own way of going, and except for record keeping, I use no software whatsoever,, and granted I don't have all that many plays, maybe 3-5 a day....But, I do hit @40% for the win....... I call it "Lotta-Magic", and all for the price of a program...I just don't think handicapping is all that complicated once you know what works and what doesn't.....

humbly,

[Speed Figure]

How about posting one day of those 3-5 plays?

[LottaKash]

How about posting one day of those 3-5 plays?

Hey Speed, a fair request.....There are many handicapping contests that go on thruout the year, and you know, I generally don't fair very well in those things....And, the reason for this is that 60% of the time, I haven't a clue as to who will win.....Meaning what works for the 40% of the winners is completely turned on it's head when trying to predict the other parts of the 2 out of 5 record......Also, when I wager, it is almost always odd-dependent, and many times my selection in the morning will be my pass in the afternoon or evening...So, in this spirit I have a truly hard time predicting ahead of time...Who wants to know about my little goody that is 6/5 at the gate ?

When I first started posting on this forum, I put some of my selections out here for all to see, and I have maintained that Win%..... Now, I no longer feel the need to share my picks in order feed my ego, as the numbers in my financial ledger are reward enough for me at this stage of my handicapping life.... Perhaps that is one of the nice gifts you get as you begin to get old and crotchity...:jump:

I do not wish to be perceived as smug about all this, but I am chock full of confidence, and I do wish to tell people, that after many years of having your head handed to you on a platter, to take heart, there just may come a time when you too, may actually get the hang of picking winners...Some get this sooner than others.....It really is not that hard of a game....haha....Really 2 out of 5 is very attainable once you find some immutable truths in all this .......They call it experience, I think.....

I am writing a book about my way of doing things, and I belive that if one can mimic exactly what I do, they will also be able to win with regularity...The problem I am having is, how do you put into words, about a "seat-of-the-pants" approach that has as much to do with "perception and gut-feelings, as it does with numerical logic ? .... When writing I freeze sometimes, as I am hoplessly inept in conveying my innards on paper......We'll see....:jump:

humbly,

[jfb]

2 more for ya from the greatest ever (not Luciano :eek:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9H9TiBYvVI&feature=related

this is amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lStSlrxDZ8

Que bellisima

[LottaKash]

Que bellisima

Are you sure you have the right thread ?.........:rolleyes:

best,

[scgmhawk]

Is Black Magic really $1-2k? I checked the Post Time Daily website and didn't even see this product mentioned. I was just curious to learn more about it. But at that price...nevermind.

[Maxspa]

All,
On this board, I've written several reviews on software. One of the criteria I tried to follow was a week of software selections using the software! Included were follow ups that summarized the weekly venture!
I am not at the point in the learning curve using this software to give a report that would give credit to the program and/or my own acquired skills. There are Black Magic users who have reached that plateau and I welcome them to jump in and give their wagering opinions. Remember that this is a longshot program which can result in the winning percentage being low and the R.O.I. being high. So it could be a longer period than a couple of days to finish a given series of bets!
I want to remind you as well, that program sales were limited in the initial
offering. They still may not be available for anyone who wishes to purchase the program.
As always, my discussions on this board have been my opinions and are not meant for anyone to purchase a software that I've commented on!
Hopefully, a Black Magic Veteran will jump in and give his or her opinion!
maxspa

[Maxspa]

All,
I have been contacted by a Black Magic User and the message I received is as follows: "Black Magic software is available and there is a thirty day free trial." Remember this information is second hand and not from Michael Pizzola.
This message is to inform PA members only and is not a solicitation to buy the program.
Maxspa

[Wickel]

Is Black Magic really $1-2k? I checked the Post Time Daily website and didn't even see this product mentioned. I was just curious to learn more about it. But at that price...nevermind.

Keep your eyes peeled on e-bay. Saw a copy on there recently advertised for $900.

[The Judge]

have a "key" that goes into the UBS slot to work.

[miesque1127]

It's not going to be that easy to win money in this game. You can't just go out and buy (by :) ) a computer program that will make the bucks roll in to you, why not? do I need explain further? MP is selling a program to you that will make money for you (after you PAY him for it of course). Why isn't he just a "winning" horseplayer and not also a software salesman?

Good question.

Pizzolla is a winning player. He has posted many winning tickets on the BLAM website. He believes in his methods and wants to share those methods with others who love the game. Nobody is forced to buy the program. His book Handicapping Magic contains most of his theories on handicapping and are the foundation of the software.

Look, there isn't a computer out there that will magically give you winning combinations. We all know that.

Black Magic is a software that definitely takes some getting used to. It is an information management tool, it doesn't tell you what or how to bet. However, once you understand the theories and information presented by the software, it is a powerful tool that has been used successfully by many users.

I purchased the software in July. It comes with instructional DVDs that detail how to best use and analyze the information. After about a month of downloading every track in the country (unlimited data files cost $79/mo and you can also print pps from these same files - result charts can be downloaded also) I felt comfortable enough to begin wagering.

My first wager using Black Magic was posted on the users forum that Black Magic users have access to. I formulated a win wager, using this win wager as a key for exactas/tris/and supers. My play which cost just over $100 returned over $3000. This one play paid for the cost of the program and over a year's worth of downloads.

Yes, its one race. But it showed me how useful this program can be. I made my play using the information displayed by the program, as well as sound handicapping fundamentals that horseplayers have learned through experirnce. Its still up to the user to incorporate his/her own judgment when making plays.

Black Magic is a longshot based program. Its main attribute is the ability to pick out undervalued horses that key excellent win/place mutuels, as well as keying large exotic payouts. You will have your share of run-outs, but the prices you hit make up for it. You must have patience and discipline to wait for good opportunities, they will come.

This program isn't for everyone. Its takes patience and practice. You will have run-outs. You will also hit scores you didn't think possible either.

[JimG]

An excellent post Miesque. My experience while using the program is very similar. It is not a black box, but can really help point you to some nice paying horses. That comes in handy in everyday and tournament play. I am sure the folks that use HTR or HSH feel the same way about their programs.

I use Black Magic everyday that I play the races. I also use JCapper for turf races. I have learned much while applying the concepts taught by Michael Pizzolla. Bottom line is after 20 years or so of losing at this game I have been winning the last 4 1/2 years. It feels good but was a lot of work to turn myself around.

Jim

[Wickel]

Pizzolla is a winning player. He has posted many winning tickets on the BLAM website. He believes in his methods and wants to share those methods with others who love the game. Nobody is forced to buy the program. His book Handicapping Magic contains most of his theories on handicapping and are the foundation of the software.

Look, there isn't a computer out there that will magically give you winning combinations. We all know that.

Black Magic is a software that definitely takes some getting used to. It is an information management tool, it doesn't tell you what or how to bet. However, once you understand the theories and information presented by the software, it is a powerful tool that has been used successfully by many users.

I purchased the software in July. It comes with instructional DVDs that detail how to best use and analyze the information. After about a month of downloading every track in the country (unlimited data files cost $79/mo and you can also print pps from these same files - result charts can be downloaded also) I felt comfortable enough to begin wagering.

My first wager using Black Magic was posted on the users forum that Black Magic users have access to. I formulated a win wager, using this win wager as a key for exactas/tris/and supers. My play which cost just over $100 returned over $3000. This one play paid for the cost of the program and over a year's worth of downloads.

Yes, its one race. But it showed me how useful this program can be. I made my play using the information displayed by the program, as well as sound handicapping fundamentals that horseplayers have learned through experirnce. Its still up to the user to incorporate his/her own judgment when making plays.

Black Magic is a longshot based program. Its main attribute is the ability to pick out undervalued horses that key excellent win/place mutuels, as well as keying large exotic payouts. You will have your share of run-outs, but the prices you hit make up for it. You must have patience and discipline to wait for good opportunities, they will come.

This program isn't for everyone. Its takes patience and practice. You will have run-outs. You will also hit scores you didn't think possible either.

Informative post, Miesque. I've heard so many price tags bandied about surrounding Black Magic. What is the actual price tag for the works, if I may ask?

[QuarterCrack]

I bought it back in February, so it's been awhile, but if I recall correctly, it was $1,597 for the program if you paid in installments and $1,197 if you paid all up front. Something like that. Maybe $1,297 all up front?

Additionally, you can choose to participate in The "Wizards Forum". This is a monthly charge of $29, if you decide to sign up for that. It isn't required, of course, but it is really the best feature out of everything, IMO. The $29 fee gains you access to the forums, as well as entitling you to a monthly DVD and monthly audio podcast. Without question, the best $29 you can spend per month - the forums are fantastic and the posters are very knowledgable and helpful. The DVDs are great as well - very professionally done.

If you sign up for the Wizards Forum, you are eligible for the discounted rate on the Post Time unlimited data downloads, if you choose to do that. Again, it's not required, but it would be silly not to take advantage of the plan. I'm not sure what the standard price would be, but Wizards can get unlimited data and charts for $79 per month if they want to.

So, I suppose you can do the math:
$1,597 program (or $1,197 if you paid all at once)
$348 fee for Wizards Forum (I used 12 months @ $29/mo. here)
$948 fee for unlimited data plan (I used 12 months @ $79/mo. here)

Comes out to $2,893 (or $2,493) total. Not cheap by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly not for everybody. But based on my experience, and I obviously speak only for myself here, the money is well spent.

[Maxspa]

All,
I would like to thank the following people who responded with information regarding the Black Magic software: Jim G, Miesque, Quarter Crack and The Judge!
IMHO this sharing of information is what this board is about. There is no suggestion on my part or the above participants that you purchase the software!
Maxspa

[Buckeye]

5000 bucks wouldn't be enough and MP won't charge this much. Possibly there are reasons. One, Nobody will pay that much and/or two, it ain't worth that much. If Black Magic is worth 50 bucks why charge more? and if it's worth 50,000 bucks why charge less? I don't understand either price but then again, I'm not a software seller. It's tough to put a price (VALUE) on something when ultimately it's a tool depending on how good you are

Word to the wise, be good and pay as little as possible at all times.

[vnsmalley]

Tell me about the software do you use TSN input?? Price, benefits, results??

vnsmalley @ cox . net

[john w]

I received their 16 page booklet and the video, was impressed, so I called the sales number for black magic was going to buy it, but the sales person was so rude to me, in my opinion, that I hung up, maybe just me but I will not be talked too like that

[PaceAdvantage]

I received their 16 page booklet and the video, was impressed, so I called the sales number for black magic was going to buy it, but the sales person was so rude to me, in my opinion, that I hung up, maybe just me but I will not be talked too like thatI find this hard to believe. Sales people would be shooting themselves in their own foot if they were rude PRIOR to a sale.

Rudeness AFTER a sale I can believe. Rudeness before a sale I don't buy.

Who did you talk to? I know the Black Magic folks monitor this board, so maybe we can get to the bottom of this.

[RichieP]

I received their 16 page booklet and the video, was impressed, so I called the sales number for black magic was going to buy it, but the sales person was so rude to me, in my opinion, that I hung up, maybe just me but I will not be talked too like that

I do NOT work for or am associated with Post Time in any way. I am a VERY satisfied customer of some of their products for years.

Doug M is the absolute best as far as handling folks who need help. He will bend over backwards for you and if you are not happy get the stuff back to him in 30 days for a NO questions asked refund of 100% of what you shelled out (not including any data files purchased).

Anyone calling Post Time for any of MP products talk to Doug M.You will not get hurt as he is the best. Bets a little bit too :)

Take care

[Buckeye]

I use (irronically) MP stuff, sprinkled generously with my stuff. I spent more than enough, or at least something on it, and came to the following conclusion: it's up to me to make it work. Thanks for telling me to buy your product AND be qualified to make it work. Makes me think twice at least. It doesn't work on it's own . . . is that the message? which may be good. Nobody has it figured out who are at the same time selling it for 1 or two or 8 or ten million dollars. Since that's what it would be worth.

Case closed.

Step up "Wizards" and be counted. Doubt you could or would sell what you (might) know for ANY amount of money. It takes experience and original repeat original stupid thought to win money here.

[Buckeye]

as for "the steps" I will talk more about them later when I'm more able to do so. Warning: you'll be required to make decisions even after I give you the steps. Sound familiar?

[miesque1127]

I use (irronically) MP stuff, sprinkled generously with my stuff. I spent more than enough, or at least something on it, and came to the following conclusion: it's up to me to make it work. Thanks for telling me to buy your product AND be qualified to make it work. Makes me think twice at least. It doesn't work on it's own . . . is that the message? which may be good. Nobody has it figured out who are at the same time selling it for 1 or two or 8 or ten million dollars. Since that's what it would be worth.

Case closed.

Step up "Wizards" and be counted. Doubt you could or would sell what you (might) know for ANY amount of money. It takes experience and original repeat original stupid thought to win money here.

Do you actually think this makes sense?? Cmon.
I already posted my thoughts on the program.

You want a program that says.....here, hammer the winner?? Nobody is expecting that.

The program helps you pick winners and hit exotic bets. There is a learning curve. It takes some work.

People are successful with it. If others are too lazy to put in the effort, aided by this program, I don't care.

Its worth every dollar, and has paid for itself many times over.

Good luck with your system.

[Judicious Player]

I received their 16 page booklet and the video, was impressed, so I called the sales number for black magic was going to buy it, but the sales person was so rude to me, in my opinion, that I hung up, maybe just me but I will not be talked too like that

I, too, found the staff VERY RUDE . . .

[turfbar]

I don't really understandwhy BM (short4 black magic) is back on topic but it gives me a chance to chime in about its qualities.I have been drinking the cool-aid since 1994,have used all of Pizzoalla products ,plus time with MPH,and Ken Massa's HTR all good software.Now I believe that a computer software program,[any computer software] is better than just using the past performance's,because it opens those fractions up and reveals more to you than you can see with the naked eye. Now, what BM does for me , and I have had it for 1 year,is let me take some of MP's basic fundamentals ,fulcrum pace ,PBS numbers and have some fun betting races.My only problem with MP ,is I don't think he has completely told his "students", everything he leaves some things foggy and hasn't really disclosed what you really need to look for.Now let me say this he does reveal his secrets but they are underlying,he never comes out
and tells you exactly what is going on and I think thats what customers want.
Just give me the winner,no bullshit ,just let me cash.

I think the program is great wether it's for you ,thats your decision.

Turfbar

[ryesteve]

he leaves some things foggy and hasn't really disclosed what you really need to look for. he never comes out and tells you exactly what is going on and I think thats what customers want.Yeah, I bought a car yesterday, and the dealer won't tell me where the ignition is, but he's given me some vague hints. That's exactly how I like it when I make a major purchase :rolleyes:

[JimG]

Yeah, I bought a car yesterday, and the dealer won't tell me where the ignition is, but he's given me some vague hints. That's exactly how I like it when I make a major purchase :rolleyes:

Steve,

Unless you own Black Magic, why jump into this? Michael Pizzolla has gone out of his way to show users exactly how he personally uses the software with a dvd and an audio every month. If that is what Turfbar is looking for, he can certainly glean this information from the dvd's.

As I read Turfbar's post, he likes the software, as I do. Michael Pizzolla has shared just as much about how he personally uses the software as Jeff Platt has with JCapper. Both are stand-up guys and creators of quality horse handicapping software.

Jim

[ryesteve]

Unless you own Black Magic, why jump into this?I wasn't commenting specifically on Black Magic. It might be a great product, I have no idea. My response was specific to the notion that users enjoy using a product where the provider is intentionally vague. I'm not even saying that's the case with Black Magic. Again, I have no idea. But as someone who's been on the receiving end of this sort of treatment (and again, to be painfully clear, NOT from BM or any other Pizzola product), I wanted to comment that from my perspective, this isn't a good business practice, and the idea that customers like it, is a strange concept.

[turfbar]

Let me reply,first of all I have about 5k and 15years invested in MP's products,everyone opened a window for me as far as handicapping prowess,I respect MP and his work. That said, what I was implying he hasn't spilled his entire" gutz ", and if he had people would understand his program so much easier.He hasn't revealed his hole card,and after all the money and time I have
spent with the software,I think I know what it is, but doubt I will ever hear him speak those words.That's all I was trying to say,I hope this clarifies the picture.


Turfbar

[ryesteve]

I have about 5k and 15years invested in MP's products,

he hasn't spilled his entire" gutz ", and if he had people would understand his program so much easier.He hasn't revealed his hole card,and after all the money and time I have spent with the software,I think I know what it is, but doubt I will ever hear him speak those words.That's all I was trying to say,I hope this clarifies the picture.
Yes, this is pretty much what I understood you to be saying... I just think this is an extraordinary amount of patience ("15 years", and you only "think" you know what it is), and I just can't agree that most people wouldn't want enough transparency to enable them to "understand his program so much easier".

Then again, JimG thinks MP has been completely transparent... and yet, you're both happy, so all I can say is that it's been interesting seeing these perspectives.

[cato]

I can't believe that someone still thinks there's a "secret".

I also find some of the prior comments amazing. Michael has written many articles, a most excellent book, and then another most excelent book, he has done several tape series, given many exensive (and exhaustive) seminars where he explains every aspect of what he does and then makes bets for all to see, he posts almost daily on a bulletin board and often gives his analysis of a race (before the race), shows copies of tickets and discusses/explains betting structure. He is about the most direct, least vague person (and one of the best teachers) I've encountered.

Cheers, Cato

[QuarterCrack]

I also have had Black Magic for a year now, but I don't sense the same vaguery that Turfbar has alluded to. I never felt like there was a "hole card" that MP was holding back that kept me from using the software to its fullest potential and understanding how to use it. That may just be me, of course - people are different.

Turfbar have you posted to the Wizard's Forum with your questions about the items that you are having difficulty with? As you know, a lot of people are willing to help each other with questions/issues/etc. I think if you can specifically identify what you are interested in finding out, either Michael or someone on the staff or some of the other Wizards would be able to help clarify it for you.

DVDs #5,#6,#10,#11, and #12 have been extremely helpful, as well, IMO. These are the ones that provided a lot of good insight for me, and have been the ones I have watched most often.

[Wickel]

Let me reply,first of all I have about 5k and 15years invested in MP's products,everyone opened a window for me as far as handicapping prowess,I respect MP and his work. That said, what I was implying he hasn't spilled his entire" gutz ", and if he had people would understand his program so much easier.He hasn't revealed his hole card,and after all the money and time I have
spent with the software,I think I know what it is, but doubt I will ever hear him speak those words.That's all I was trying to say,I hope this clarifies the picture.


Turfbar

I don't have $5,000 invested in MP's products, but I've spent quite a bit. My final stop was The Master Magician. I tinkered with it for many months, listened to the boot camp tapes on numerous occasions and read and reread "Handicapping Magic." The only secret Turfbar could be alluding to is pouring more money into each race; going deeper in exotic plays. With all due respect to Quarter, I think Turfbar understands the value of the DVDs, but after shelling out $5,000, including the whopping amount on Black Magic, it kind of defeats the point to keep shelling out "nominal" fees for the Wizard's Forum, DVDs, this and that, etc. etc. I think--and this is my opinion only--that this stuff should be given to wizards gratis--gravy, so to speak--especially the Black Magicians.

[Maxspa]

All,
Black Magic software isn't for everyone! Purchasing the program is only the first step! Understanding and using the software successfully is quite a learning experience! Just because you buy any handicapping material does not guarantee that you'll be on the top side of the Mendosa line, it requires a lot of work + study on the user's part.
Black Magic, because it has so many types of bets to structure, has a very difficult learning curve. It is a complex program with many variables being considered in the handicapping process. That is why the monthly dvd's and probably the best interactive handicapping web site for users are both necessary to give the handicapper knowledge and confidence he or she needs to be successful.
Michael Pizzola is not only brilliant but he is a dynamic teacher as well. As one who has attended seminars he has given, I can tell you first hand that he is prepared, organized and an exciting deliverer of information. Many Black Magic members, almost immediately after purchasing the software, wanted to know when a seminar would be planned. This is because members know that the seminar would be exciting,well worth the money and give the attendees valuable handicapping information.
My reason for writing this response is not to encourage anyone to buy the program but to share information that is strictly my opinion about a software and the person who shared his ideas with other handicappers!
Maxspa

[turfbar]

I can't believe that someone still thinks there's a "secret".

I also find some of the prior comments amazing. Michael has written many articles, a most excellent book, and then another most excelent book, he has done several tape series, given many exensive (and exhaustive) seminars where he explains every aspect of what he does and then makes bets for all to see, he posts almost daily on a bulletin board and often gives his analysis of a race (before the race), shows copies of tickets and discusses/explains betting structure. He is about the most direct, least vague person (and one of the best teachers) I've encountered.

Cheers, Cato
First of all I do believe thier are still "secrets",and thats what I am alluding too.
Understand I am not trying to impare MP character,read previous posts please,I have re-read his Handicapping Magic twice this past year looking for
help in understanding and using BLAM.The book is excellent,all his tapes are great, but not once in all that does he reveal the secret or what I believe to be a "secret".Now by me knowing this "secret" it has made a difference in how I use Black Magic.I was a member of the forum up until July 08 and every month was a clarification of Blam at that point I believed I wasn't making anymore progress that way,now understand I have had TMH for 15 years and used that every time i handicapped,15 years is a long time I spent lots of time reviewing races so I feel justified feeling I know the software well.Almost like an old car you drive u get used to the temperment.I believe lots of guys have made giant scores w/Blam but I understand some guys still struggle with it,
again understand I love the software but I feel what you really need to look for hasn't been revealed.

Turfbar

[Light]

I love the software but I feel what you really need to look for hasn't been revealed.
Turfbar

I think all software goes through a growth process or dies.That is the reason for Pizzolla's multi versions on the same theme. If there is a "secret",I dont think Pizzolla knows about it yet or his need to create new software would have ceased.

[Wickel]

First of all I do believe thier are still "secrets",and thats what I am alluding too.
Understand I am not trying to impare MP character,read previous posts please,I have re-read his Handicapping Magic twice this past year looking for
help in understanding and using BLAM.The book is excellent,all his tapes are great, but not once in all that does he reveal the secret or what I believe to be a "secret".Now by me knowing this "secret" it has made a difference in how I use Black Magic.I was a member of the forum up until July 08 and every month was a clarification of Blam at that point I believed I wasn't making anymore progress that way,now understand I have had TMH for 15 years and used that every time i handicapped,15 years is a long time I spent lots of time reviewing races so I feel justified feeling I know the software well.Almost like an old car you drive u get used to the temperment.I believe lots of guys have made giant scores w/Blam but I understand some guys still struggle with it,
again understand I love the software but I feel what you really need to look for hasn't been revealed.

Turfbar




The suspense is killing me! Please tell us, what's the secret?

[turfbar]

Wouldn't you like to know?

T

[Wickel]

All,
Black Magic software isn't for everyone! Purchasing the program is only the first step! Understanding and using the software successfully is quite a learning experience! Just because you buy any handicapping material does not guarantee that you'll be on the top side of the Mendosa line, it requires a lot of work + study on the user's part.
Black Magic, because it has so many types of bets to structure, has a very difficult learning curve. It is a complex program with many variables being considered in the handicapping process. That is why the monthly dvd's and probably the best interactive handicapping web site for users are both necessary to give the handicapper knowledge and confidence he or she needs to be successful.
Michael Pizzola is not only brilliant but he is a dynamic teacher as well. As one who has attended seminars he has given, I can tell you first hand that he is prepared, organized and an exciting deliverer of information. Many Black Magic members, almost immediately after purchasing the software, wanted to know when a seminar would be planned. This is because members know that the seminar would be exciting,well worth the money and give the attendees valuable handicapping information.
My reason for writing this response is not to encourage anyone to buy the program but to share information that is strictly my opinion about a software and the person who shared his ideas with other handicappers!
Maxspa


Great post, Max. I agree with virtually everything you said. Mike's brilliance ceases to amaze me. As a matter of fact, I think his work will surpass the Beyers, Brohamers, Sartins and Quirins as far as impacting handicapping. My only regret is that since I stopped at The Master Magician, I have nowhere to go for assistance (I'm still learning and incorporating all the variables from TMM). The Member's Forum on their website is not very helpful. There's something like 10 total posts on it dating back to early last year. Everything is focused on Black Magic and the Wizard's Forum--and rightly so, I guess.

[JimG]

My only regret is that since I stopped at The Master Magician, I have nowhere to go for assistance (I'm still learning and incorporating all the variables from TMM). The Member's Forum on their website is not very helpful. There's something like 10 total posts on it dating back to early last year. Everything is focused on Black Magic and the Wizard's Forum--and rightly so, I guess.

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/handicappingmagic/

http://www.sportsbettingacumen.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=10

http://www.posttimedaily.com/software/tmmvt_from_home.html

Maybe the above will help.

Jim

[Wickel]

Thanks, Jim.

[Wickel]

OK Turf, I'm giving Boot Camp one more shot--listening to the tapes, reading some parts of H-Magic and sifting through some threads on the old website. The secret lurks in there somewhere.

[turfbar]

OK Turf, I'm giving Boot Camp one more shot--listening to the tapes, reading some parts of H-Magic and sifting through some threads on the old website. The secret lurks in there somewhere.

Hey I admire your tenacity,besides the $$ I spent on the materials( and let me say I hve no regrets )there is 15 years of downloads that were a buck now $1.50
and using several tracks a day,there is a significant amount of capital invested
besides using the DRF as hard copy every time. So ,Wickel understand why I won't reveal the secret, believe me its there even though MP won't admit to any secrets ----it would make you and the people using and struggling with the program work easier and simpler.

Unless MP doesn't know what the secret is???????

Turfbar

[Rxlawyer]

I am interested in possibly buying Michael Pizzolla's latest program - I think it is called Black Magic. I could not find a web site. Any ideas?

Rxlawyer :)

[RichieP]

I am interested in possibly buying Michael Pizzolla's latest program - I think it is called Black Magic. I could not find a web site. Any ideas?

Rxlawyer :)
Gary
Here is the phone #. 1-866-722-3367
Call M-F 9AM-4PM Pacific. Ask for Doug.He will take care of you.

[bbopjz]

i am interested-contact me at bbopjz@aol.com

[Rxlawyer]

:) Thank you for the responses regarding Black Magic.

Gary

[David-LV]

What is the cost for Data and how far back can you go to get old data.

Thank You,
______
David-LV

[David-LV]

Would like to here on how some of the Black Magic users are doing, now that most of the wizards have been using the program for quite awhile.

I know that MP fully understands what he develops, and wins with what ever he develops, but can this knowledge that MP an attorney with a brilliant and sharp mind with over 20 years experience be abled to be tranfered and used successfully by an average losing horse player that can't overcome the pari-mutual takeout.

A lot of players alway talk about the winners that they have, but I would like to here from some of the losing players that have tried and continue to use Black Magic hoping that things will turn around.

We all know that most horse players are losing horse players, but continue to play because they love the thrill of the sport.

Thank You, :)

_________
David-LV

[headhawg]

David,

You bring up an interesting point about winning and losing and using software, in this case BM. IMHO, I think that no software -- unless it is a complete black box that actually will make the bets -- will turn a losing player into a winning one. Some people have whatever it takes to be a winner, and most of us simply don't.

Think of it in terms of sports. You could have been a stud pitcher in high school, but got shelled every time out in Rookie ball giving you absolutely no chance to pitch in the Major Leagues. Why? Because only the best can be "winners". And no matter how many baseball camps with the best players and best coaches you went to, you would still get shelled at the higher levels. In other words, you either got it or you don't.

I always think back to something that Dick Schmidt wrote in Pace Makes the Race and has reiterated here a few times. The TPR numbers are good enough to make you a winning handicapper. Do I believe that? No. I believe that they are probably good enough for Dick Schmidt (and a few others) to be a winner because he could probably pick up a form, look at a race for five minutes, and have a winning play. Why? Because he's got "it" whatever "it" is. (And truth be told, as I do not know Dick personally, he could be a losing player as well. No offense, Dick.)

If this post sounds like sour grapes, it really isn't. This is a parimutuel game so by definition there can only be a limited number of winners. Maybe you can be (are) one of them, David. Or maybe you're close to being one (as a few select others here undoubtedly are) and BM will push you to the top of the handicapping mountain. (And for what it costs it should probably do something like move the mountain.)

But if I were you, I wouldn't make that wager unless you are sure that you already have "it". ;)

Best of luck.

HH

[laff]

check your private messages

[David-LV]

David,

You bring up an interesting point about winning and losing and using software, in this case BM. IMHO, I think that no software -- unless it is a complete black box that actually will make the bets -- will turn a losing player into a winning one. Some people have whatever it takes to be a winner, and most of us simply don't.

Think of it in terms of sports. You could have been a stud pitcher in high school, but got shelled every time out in Rookie ball giving you absolutely no chance to pitch in the Major Leagues. Why? Because only the best can be "winners". And no matter how many baseball camps with the best players and best coaches you went to, you would still get shelled at the higher levels. In other words, you either got it or you don't.

I always think back to something that Dick Schmidt wrote in Pace Makes the Race and has reiterated here a few times. The TPR numbers are good enough to make you a winning handicapper. Do I believe that? No. I believe that they are probably good enough for Dick Schmidt (and a few others) to be a winner because he could probably pick up a form, look at a race for five minutes, and have a winning play. Why? Because he's got "it" whatever "it" is. (And truth be told, as I do not know Dick personally, he could be a losing player as well. No offense, Dick.)

If this post sounds like sour grapes, it really isn't. This is a parimutuel game so by definition there can only be a limited number of winners. Maybe you can be (are) one of them, David. Or maybe you're close to being one (as a few select others here undoubtedly are) and BM will push you to the top of the handicapping mountain. (And for what it costs it should probably do something like move the mountain.)

But if I were you, I wouldn't make that wager unless you are sure that you already have "it". ;)

Best of luck.


HH

Thank you HH for a very informative post. This game is like climbing up the side of an icey mountain. :)

________
David-LV

[46zilzal]

Pizz has some great ideas that have revolutionized my handicapping. An iconoclast like myself and Mark Cramer, he looks for angles the crowd cannot find.

[Buckeye]

First of all, I own a book he wrote Handicapping Magic. In it he basically says follow my rules but then again don't (because there are NO rules). I agree with that. He also "lays down" I think, all of his original thought concerning REAL overlays in this book which as I said I own. I was born at night but not LAST night!

[Buckeye]

His ideas about real overlays are good, but, it didn't take a new computer program to produce them (it can't). This opinion comes from him not me. You cannot purchase a "bio computer" from Michael Pizzolla.

[detectivecaution]

I play the races for a living and I think what they did with Black Magic is great! It did not work for me as I had a hard time hitting 30% winners at a min 10.00 dollars that is needed to make a living at the game. You can get some big scores with the software but you need a huge bankroll as you could go for weeks with out a big score. And then when you do hit what will your ROI be? I think if you play just now and then and went into the book and played a few races now and then it would be great. The Bob Harris portfolio does work. The ROI is low I got around 9% and you need to play every track in the country and if you miss one day or one week your ROI could be in the Red real quick. If any one has the software and is earning 50% ROI or higher I'd like to hear about it and see what you are doing that I could not find. I will turn the software back on at some point as the layout or interface and the way it works is the best I have seen. The support is Great and MP is the best. His Seminars are great. I for some reason could not turn long term steady profits from the software and perhaps just need some help. I think it is software you need to order and take a look and see if it fits your style of play. Some of the numbers like the pp and bp are fantastic and I saw the power. I just was not able to hit enough of them to make a large profit. So if any one can help me please let me know.lemmy@linuxmail.org