mission unaccomplished

[lamboguy]

today was opening day at hollywood park. i turned on TVG, they have a streaming message on the bottom of their machine stating you cannot bet on hollywood park on their adw, or any other legitamate adw. i had 2 friends call and asked me to reccomend which "offshore" bookmakers to call to open up an account so they could place their california action.

i suspect others opened up accounts too. i wonder when this dispute gets settled if these guys come back to the tvg's and ubet's, and express bet's, and twinspires, or any other place that used to handle southern california wagering. maybe i am outhinking this. maybe those operations have treated their customers better than these "offshore" entities. maybe they will give them larger rebates!

[Tampa Russ]

It has to be Bush's fault, correct?

[lamboguy]

i can's blame poor george for this one. i honestly think even he would have got this one right!

[Tampa Russ]

I think you are correct. I really have tried to see the horse owners point of view on this one, but I'm really having a hard time with the apparent stupidity of it all. It's funny that of the local owners I'm aquainted with, the ones that do some serious wagering are not happy with what's going on. The ones that don't wager on a regular basis don't seem to really have an idea of just how pissed of the customer is becoming.

[boomman]

today was opening day at hollywood park. i turned on TVG, they have a streaming message on the bottom of their machine stating you cannot bet on hollywood park on their adw, or any other legitamate adw. i had 2 friends call and asked me to reccomend which "offshore" bookmakers to call to open up an account so they could place their california action.

i suspect others opened up accounts too. i wonder when this dispute gets settled if these guys come back to the tvg's and ubet's, and express bet's, and twinspires, or any other place that used to handle southern california wagering. maybe i am outhinking this. maybe those operations have treated their customers better than these "offshore" entities. maybe they will give them larger rebates!

And that someone is Drew Couto and the TOC:mad: I have mentioned on other threads that he has a TOTAL conflict of interest with his office of Vice-President of THG and "leader" of the TOC.....This is just another in a series of disgusting events to further fracture signals and the availability of wagering via the lifeblood of the industry: The ADW's.........lambo:You are correct! The customers will head offshore and how often if ever will they come back? That is very debateable. It is time for HANA and everyone on this board that LOVES horse racing to demand that this crap get fixed immediately before it's too late!

Boomer

[Hajck Hillstrom]

The reality of this game is a harsh one.

When an Equine goes lame, sometimes you have to put it down.

I have just unceremoniously put the sport down from where I sit.

I think I can find a poker game somewhere.

[Imriledup]

And that someone is Drew Couto and the TOC:mad: I have mentioned on other threads that he has a TOTAL conflict of interest with his office of Vice-President of THG and "leader" of the TOC.....This is just another in a series of disgusting events to further fracture signals and the availability of wagering via the lifeblood of the industry: The ADW's.........lambo:You are correct! The customers will head offshore and how often if ever will they come back? That is very debateable. It is time for HANA and everyone on this board that LOVES horse racing to demand that this crap get fixed immediately before it's too late!

Boomer

They're not coming back. You can only get kicked in the chops so many times before you say ENOUGH. I don't know who Drew Couto is or what he does, but it just seems that his name keeps popping up in threads that are dominated by horseplayers voicing dissatisfaction in one way or another.

[raybo]

Did all this stuff not start when TVG started entering into exclusive contracts with the tracks, concerning their signal? I had not noticed a signal problem until that time. So, who is really to blame?

I know that the track manager for EvD expressed regret that EvG had entered into such a deal with TvG and that they were probably not going to renew the contract as a result.

[Imriledup]

Hopefully one day we can have a similar channel to TVG or HRTV that has the fans and the racing industry's best interest at heart and not their own. TVG would be much better if they just cared about bringing the best racing to the fans of America and not the signals that create the most revenue for THEM.

Until every provider carries every track and HRTV and TVG can show whatever races they want to show, we'll still struggle along in this game.

The fans of America want the major tracks. We dont' want to have to pay for cable AND satellite so we can get HRTV AND TVG, we want HRTV to be able to show Santa Anita if they choose.

Funny thing about HRTV is that they broadcast RIGHT INSIDE SANTA ANITA yet they can't show those races, at least not the Oak Tree ones.

No way major racetrack companies like CD inc and Magna are going to agree to let the NTRA tell them what to do and how to run their business.

I wonder how the landscape of racing is going to change if Halsey Minor gets in the game and starts scooping up racetracks left and right. The racing industry desperately needs a blood transfusion.

[Tom]

I gotta ask...if no one can bet Hollywood, why is TVG wasting time showing the races????

[Imriledup]

I think you can bet them if you live in Calif, its just people who dont live there who can't play, at least that's what i understand it to be.

[rrbauer]

Did all this stuff not start when TVG started entering into exclusive contracts with the tracks, concerning their signal? I had not noticed a signal problem until that time. So, who is really to blame?

I know that the track manager for EvD expressed regret that EvG had entered into such a deal with TvG and that they were probably not going to renew the contract as a result.

TVG has been around for 10 years. Up until THG came along, driven by their monopoly mentality, we had ADW-access aligned with track ownership which meant that most players needed multiple accounts to cover all tracks. Now it doesn't matter (setting aside the non-parimutuel "offshore" accounts): Players have no ADW-access if THG doesn't turn on the green light.

It's a pretty simple solution. Take your business elsewhere (meaning do not bet Hollywood and Churchill); or, fill up the jalopy with cheap gas and head on over to your nearest simulcast outlet. Horseplayers have been getting jacked around by the power structure for as long as I've been involved in the game. Why should that change?

[JimG]

I gotta ask...if no one can bet Hollywood, why is TVG wasting time showing the races????

I am under the impression TVG derives much of its revenue from people living in CA and wagering on CA races. Otherwise, why devote so much time and effort to Las Alomitos? I would like to see them expand to showing other tracks. For instance, they used to show Delta Downs, but not anymore.

Jim

[JimG]

It's a pretty simple solution. Take your business elsewhere (meaning do not bet Hollywood and Churchill); or, fill up the jalopy with cheap gas and head on over to your nearest simulcast outlet. Horseplayers have been getting jacked around by the power structure for as long as I've been involved in the game. Why should that change?

Hi Richard,

My wife summed it up nicely yesterday. She happened to walk into the room when TVG was scrolling the info regarding Hollywood. She said if Hollywood does not want a cut of your bet, I am sure there are other tracks that do.

Jim

[FlyinLate]

I gotta ask...if no one can bet Hollywood, why is TVG wasting time showing the races????

This pissed me off horribly yesterday. Even without the wagering, they didn't only show the races, they solely CONCENTRATED their entire show around it. Hawthorne was the other track shown (and only one I was betting). It was Post Time at HAW and 8 MTP at Hollywood. They decided to show a live post parade from hollywood and spend even more time discussing their opinions on the race while ignoring Hawthorne. They didn't show Hawthorne until after Hollywood's race went off and they got in their comments. What kind of BS is that? Ive seen it happen plenty before, but this is even worse considering it is only two tracks and HAW was the ONLY track u could wager on and watch and they skip a live race to show a live post parade from HOL?

[Tom]

I would love to see their business model....the one with the photo of Alfred E. Newman on the cover! :lol:

[lamboguy]

i was wondering why the handle yesterday at hollywood was still over $5 million.

i found out why a few minutes ago. you see its true that the adw's in the 50 states of our country have been shut out by the toc. but they were very careful in their wording, rmember these 2 places RGS, and ELITE, adw's which find their homes in nice and warm offshore islands still take hollywood. not only do they take hollywood, but they also have calder and churhill. sure they are the highest rebating adw's in the world. more than likely i would say over half the handle yesterday came from them. of course you might want to speculate that not only the customers are getting the huge rebates, but maybe others do. i am not naming names, i am only speculating, but something stinks to high hell.

do i care, yes in a big way. i sell horses to people that race them, if their purses go down my horse prices go with it. i do have selfish reasons for wanting the injustices of the racing game to get fixed.

i have been preaching THE PREMIER TURF CLUB now for months. that is because they bring smaller players into the game, and creates more interest in it as well.

the people running the show in the horse business have got to go. i am sick of the slogan "go baby go" they are the ones that got to go.

please if you are a big horse owner with some influence and care about this sport, step up to the plate for once.

[boomman]

i was wondering why the handle yesterday at hollywood was still over $5 million.

I found out why a few minutes ago. you see its true that the adw's in the 50 states of our country have been shut out by the TOC. but they were very careful in their wording, remember these 2 places RGS, and ELITE, adw's which find their homes in nice and warm offshore islands still take hollywood. not only do they take hollywood, but they also have calder and churchill. sure they are the highest rebating adw's in the world. more than likely i would say over half the handle yesterday came from them. of course you might want to speculate that not only the customers are getting the huge rebates, but maybe others do. i am not naming names, i am only speculating, but something stinks to high hell.

do i care, yes in a big way. i sell horses to people that race them, if their purses go down my horse prices go with it. i do have selfish reasons for wanting the injustices of the racing game to get fixed.

i have been preaching THE PREMIER TURF CLUB now for months. that is because they bring smaller players into the game, and creates more interest in it as well.

the people running the show in the horse business have got to go. i am sick of the slogan "go baby go" they are the ones that got to go.

please if you are a big horse owner with some influence and care about this sport, step up to the plate for once.

It is time for a group such as HANA to ask Drew Couto of the TOC on the record why ADW'S like RGS and Elite are still getting the signal while the ADWS in the US are locked out. I am relatively sure he is not going to answer that question, and EQUALLY as sure that you guys can figure out why........:mad:

Boomer

[lamboguy]

i pointed out where the problem might be. you want to speak to the problem. i say get rid of the problem!

ELITE and RGS don't pay state gambling taxes, that is why they are where they are, i have no clue how much of their handle goes back to the horsemen.

mr. drew cuto says no to onshore adw's, he says yes to offshore adw's.

churchill downs aka twin spires, cannot take action on churhill downs, or hollywood park, or calder.

now you go and figure out where the problem lies in these signal wars. if you want to see company's thrive offshore, go elect george bush for a third term and have drew cuto as his vp this time around.

why should mr. cuto allow any other adw's to function, the longer he holds out the better shot he has to bust out the competition.

[Imriledup]

It is time for a group such as HANA to ask Drew Couto of the TOC on the record why ADW'S like RGS and Elite are still getting the signal while the ADWS in the US are locked out. I am relatively sure he is not going to answer that question, and EQUALLY as sure that you guys can figure out why........:mad:

Boomer
Maybe because they are willing to pay the asking price? I dont know, just a thought.

[LottaKash]

I say Frig-em, do not support them any longer.....:cool:

best,

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by boomman
It is time for a group such as HANA to ask Drew Couto of the TOC on the record why ADW'S like RGS and Elite are still getting the signal while the ADWS in the US are locked out. I am relatively sure he is not going to answer that question, and EQUALLY as sure that you guys can figure out why........

BoomerFunny you should post that... because I sent him an email earlier today asking that exact same question. I'll let you guys know if and when I get a response. <G>

-jp

.

[rrbauer]

i was wondering why the handle yesterday at hollywood was still over $5 million.

i found out why a few minutes ago. you see its true that the adw's in the 50 states of our country have been shut out by the toc. but they were very careful in their wording, rmember these 2 places RGS, and ELITE, adw's which find their homes in nice and warm offshore islands still take hollywood. not only do they take hollywood, but they also have calder and churhill. sure they are the highest rebating adw's in the world. more than likely i would say over half the handle yesterday came from them. of course you might want to speculate that not only the customers are getting the huge rebates, but maybe others do. i am not naming names, i am only speculating, but something stinks to high hell.

.

I believe that you are speculating about just about everything. Do you know for a FACT that RGS/ELITE are taking bets on the current meets at the tracks that you mention from US customers? How do you know that? Do you know for a FACT that ADW's other than TS, YB, TVG and XB are not taking bets on Hollywood, Calder and Churchill? How do you know that?

[lamboguy]

i am not speculating about RGS and ELITE taking bets from hollywood or churchill or calder. i have a friend that is playing there right now.

i don't know first hand about express bet or tvg or twinspires or ubet. i suspect they are not taking play on california tracks from customers outside of california because they say so on television. maybe they are lying right to our faces about that. they could be booking it themselves for all i know and it don't go back to the track. i don't think that is happening, but to the best of my knowledge they are not allowed to accept wagers from people outside the state of california. if you live somewhere else and want to play claifornia tracks or churchill downs or calder, i suggest you get an account with either RGS or ELITE. because they are a special case and they CAN take your action and it goes back into the paramutual pools.

[raybo]

I believe that you are speculating about just about everything. Do you know for a FACT that RGS/ELITE are taking bets on the current meets at the tracks that you mention from US customers? How do you know that? Do you know for a FACT that ADW's other than TS, YB, TVG and XB are not taking bets on Hollywood, Calder and Churchill? How do you know that?

This is what BetPad.com (my preferred ADW) shows on their website:

"Racetrack Lineup Updated through October 31st

Dear Customer:

Due to exclusive account wagering contracts that are currently owned by the Television Games Network (TVG), the following tracks may not be available for wagering via Betpad.com through October 31, 2008:

Turfway Park**

Zia Park**

Fairplex Park

Kentucky Downs**

Emerald Downs**

Evangeline Downs **

Los Alamitos**

Ruidoso Downs

Turf Paradise**

Japan Racing

Oak Tree at Santa Anita

Windsor Raceway

**Indicates tracks that are available for telephone wagering only.

Betpad.com continues to pursue a sub-licensing agreement with TVG. In that event, it is possible that Betpad.com may regain some of these tracks in the coming weeks or months. We will endeavor to keep you informed of any additional changes to our racetrack lineup.

We regret that these content issues continue to affect our customers, and we are committed to exploring all options in an effort to continue to offer you the most comprehensive menu of racetracks possible."

[raybo]

BetPad.com, BTW, is a spin-off of Brisbet.com. Some customers were sent to Twinspires.com and others were sent to BetPad when Brisbet.com sold out.

[raybo]

This is the schedule for Saturday, Nov. 1st, on BetPad for those interested in which tracks they carry (H= Harness, TO=Telephone bets only, all others are available for internet wagering):

Tracks

12:25PM - Philadelphia
12:30PM - Aqueduct
12:30PM - Freehold (H)
12:45PM - Delaware Park
12:45PM - Hoosier
12:45PM - Suffolk Downs
1:00PM - Colonial (H)
1:10PM - Finger Lakes
1:10PM - Laurel Park
1:10PM - Woodbine
1:30PM - Bangor Raceway (H)
1:35PM - Pinnacle Race Course
2:15PM - Zia Park (TO)
2:35PM - Hawthorne
3:00PM - Albuquerque
3:30PM - Turf Paradise (TO)
4:25PM - Hastings Park
5:30PM - Dover Downs (H)
6:30PM - Lebanon(H)
6:45PM - Penn National
6:50PM - Yonkers(H)
6:55PM - Indiana Downs (H)
6:55PM - Northville (H)
6:55PM - Vernon (H)
7:00PM - Meadowlands
7:00PM - Mountaineer Park
7:00PM - Northfield Park (H)
7:00PM - Saratoga(H)
7:05PM - Western Fair (H)
7:15PM - Charles Town
7:20PM - Evangeline (TO)
7:25PM - Georgian Downs (H)
7:25PM - Pompano Park (H)
7:30PM - Delta Downs
7:30PM - Woodbine Harness (H)
8:30PM - Australia
8:45PM - Cal Expo (H)
10:00PM - Los Alamitos (TO)

[lamboguy]

hey raybo, did this "betpad" ever take churhill downs or calder or california tracks, or do they just specialise in tracks other than those?

[lamboguy]

just because i can't live without betting on california racing, i asked how to obtain an account with either RGS or ELITE. i was told that i have to bet $1 million a year in wagers. i guess that leaves me out, i only bet about $200,000

i got aced out because i am not big enough. maybe someone wants to go partners with me so i can make up the difference and become a million a year player!!!

[raybo]

hey raybo, did this "betpad" ever take churhill downs or calder or california tracks, or do they just specialise in tracks other than those?

Before the Magna expansions and the "signal war", BetPad offered every track in the US that made their signal available, including all the tracks you mentioned. Basically they offered every track that Brisbet offered.

[raybo]

I used to be a YouBet member but they wouldn't let me wager on Texas tracks, as a Texas resident, so I switched to BrisBet, where I had many more tracks to wager on.

[rrbauer]

i am not speculating about RGS and ELITE taking bets from hollywood or churchill or calder. i have a friend that is playing there right now.

i don't know first hand about express bet or tvg or twinspires or ubet. i suspect they are not taking play on california tracks from customers outside of california because they say so on television. maybe they are lying right to our faces about that. they could be booking it themselves for all i know and it don't go back to the track. i don't think that is happening, but to the best of my knowledge they are not allowed to accept wagers from people outside the state of california. if you live somewhere else and want to play claifornia tracks or churchill downs or calder, i suggest you get an account with either RGS or ELITE. because they are a special case and they CAN take your action and it goes back into the paramutual pools.

You stated in your earlier post:
"i found out why a few minutes ago. you see its true that the adw's in the 50 states of our country have been shut out by the toc."

I questioned that earlier because I do not live in Calif and have personally bet on Hollywood Park's current meet (today, Thurs) on my PhoneBet account. So at least one ADW, aside from the big-4, is taking Hollywood bets from players outside Calif and there are probably others. And, PhoneBet's minimums are the same simple $1 or $2 as the other stateside ADW's and no particular annual requirement to have an account.

Since I made my earlier post about RGS/ELITE, I was contacted privately and told that indeed U.S. players were betting Hollywood thru them. If that is the case then one must presume that they are paying the going rate for the signal.

[Imriledup]

You stated in your earlier post:
"i found out why a few minutes ago. you see its true that the adw's in the 50 states of our country have been shut out by the toc."

I questioned that earlier because I do not live in Calif and have personally bet on Hollywood Park's current meet (today, Thurs) on my PhoneBet account. So at least one ADW, aside from the big-4, is taking Hollywood bets from players outside Calif and there are probably others. And, PhoneBet's minimums are the same simple $1 or $2 as the other stateside ADW's and no particular annual requirement to have an account.

Since I made my earlier post about RGS/ELITE, I was contacted privately and told that indeed U.S. players were betting Hollywood thru them. If that is the case then one must presume that they are paying the going rate for the signal.

I'm no expert on this, but isn't the 'going rate' a lot higher for those places than it is for the youbets and xpressbets and tvgs of the world?

[lamboguy]

with all due respect, these people don't pay as much for the signal as tvg, ubet, twinspires, ptc, or anyone else.

and they don't pay ANY state gambling taxes.

and their employees are all from the islands

they all started with a pad of paper and a few pencil's with a phone room full of people answering the phones. i can compare them to my long gone uncle louie. he used to work for a numbers office based in the basement of an apartment house in harlem new york.

[Imriledup]

with all due respect, these people don't pay as much for the signal as tvg, ubet, twinspires, ptc, or anyone else.

and they don't pay ANY state gambling taxes.

and their employees are all from the islands

they all started with a pad of paper and a few pencil's with a phone room full of people answering the phones. i can compare them to my long gone uncle louie. he used to work for a numbers office based in the basement of an apartment house in harlem new york.

how would you know what they pay for their signal?

[lamboguy]

as far as i know, places like phonebet, an offshoot of philladelphia park, and maybe raceline an offshoot of mountaineer gaming, and maybe the hotels in vegas that take phone wagering are still writing california action.

i beleive that the adw's that are not permitted to carry california were at least 40% of the total handle.

not sure, but looks like they are trying to take down as many adw's as possible so they can hand the business over to company's like rgs and elite.

rgs and elite offer the bigest rebates in the industry. but they produce the largest handles of anyone.

[rrbauer]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/99602.html

From the article:
"Jack Liebau, the president of the company that operates Hollywood Park and a director of Youbet.com, complained this week that the horsemen's position of seeking one-third of the revenue from bets made through account-wagering (or advance-deposit wagering) companies was inconsistent with what the groups were willing to accept from other betting sites, such as offshore rebaters.

"The rebaters are paying at most 7 percent, and horsemen get half of that, or 3.5 percent," Liebau said. "I have a very hard time understanding why the rebaters should get a lower price than the ADW companies. I don't understand the equity argument they are making at all, when you have such a difference across the board on how signals are being priced."

Another source of inconsistency is the fact that the Hollywood signal is being offered on account-wagering platforms operated by New York racetracks and offtrack betting companies. Couto said those deals provided two-thirds of the revenue to either horsemen or tracks that hold live racing - through a mix of host fees, source-market payments, and statutory requirements - so the TOC and THG did not have a problem with providing the signal to the operators."

[DeanT]

From the TOC newsletter about grabbing a larger percentage of the shrinking pie.

http://www.toconline.com/communication/enewsletter.php

"It does not take a genius to recognize that if someone pays you more for your product, your revenues will be greater."

Altho that statement is about TVG, it explains how this business thinks and what it thinks of the player. It is the mindset that is responsible for poker taking over racing as the thinking man/woman's game.