UK Article on Breeders Cup....a rock thrown in the pond

[JustRalph]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/oct/27/horseracing1

From the article:

Every European winner was a rock thrown into a pond and the ripples will spread for a long time yet. Top-class Flat racing is a global business and Saturday's events will have an effect in America, in Europe and also in Dubai.


Europe has so much more to celebrate than five Cup wins
Next year's meeting sure to be overrun by the visitors after Breeders rout




* Sport
* Horse racing

Europe has so much more to celebrate than five Cup wins
Next year's meeting sure to be overrun by the visitors after Breeders rout

* Greg Wood in Santa Anita
* The Guardian,
* Monday October 27 2008
* Article history

Frankie Dettori celebrates aboard Raven's Pass

Frankie Dettori celebrates atop Raven's Pass. Photograph: Chris Petersen/Getty Images

Racing changed on Saturday and you could see it in the faces of the punters as they streamed away from Santa Anita after the 25th Breeders' Cup. There was the usual mixture of pumped-up winners and foot-dragging losers, but there was something else too. Many were simply astonished by what they had seen, as European horses, and the British in particular, took the world's richest race meeting by storm.

Curlin's failure to make the frame in the Classic was surprising enough for the local fans, as Raven's Pass, from John Gosden's stable in Newmarket, and Aidan O'Brien's Henrythenavigator filled the first two places. But it was just the last in a series of nasty surprises for American racing on an afternoon when five of the nine Breeders' Cup races were won by horses trained in Europe.

Even that statistic does not tell the whole story, as Europe did not have a runner in the Sprint, and only a no-hoper in the Dirt Mile. Look at it that way, and it was five from seven. No wonder the racegoers looked dazed as they walked into the Californian sunset. This was a rout, a rearrangement of the accepted order and the aftershocks may be felt for years.

more at the link

[PaceAdvantage]

People in almost all walks of life have lost perspective and the ability to reason. It's very alarming.

First off, the Euros have generally been miserable failures in the BC time and again. This year they manage to string a few wins together, and all of a sudden, the world has changed. Yeah. Ok. Whatever.

All I've heard this year is "3yo crop sucks except for MAYBE Big Brown" and "Older horses pretty much suck, except for Curlin"

Well, given that, why should the world change just because the Euros took advantage of a seriously weak American year (not to mention the first BC run on an artificial surface)?

I don't get why and how the game suddenly changed. Unless of course they install artificial surfaces at Churchill and Belmont tomorrow....

[WinterTriangle]

But it was just the last in a series of nasty surprises for American racing on an afternoon when five of the nine Breeders' Cup races were won by horses trained in Europe.

I think the operative phrase here is "trained in".

I'm handing kudos to the European trainers, who did a tremendous job preparing their horses this year.

While everyone is talking endlessly about surface, Raven's Pass beat all our synthetic surface specialists, not just *dirt horse* Curlin.

To me that says it's about training and prep, not surface.

[JustRalph]

God I hope they are overbet next year.......... :lol:

[Gorgeous George]

People in almost all walks of life have lost perspective and the ability to reason. It's very alarming.

First off, the Euros have generally been miserable failures in the BC time and again. This year they manage to string a few wins together, and all of a sudden, the world has changed. Yeah. Ok. Whatever.

All I've heard this year is "3yo crop sucks except for MAYBE Big Brown" and "Older horses pretty much suck, except for Curlin"

Well, given that, why should the world change just because the Euros took advantage of a seriously weak American year (not to mention the first BC run on an artificial surface)?

I don't get why and how the game suddenly changed. Unless of course they install artificial surfaces at Churchill and Belmont tomorrow....

sour grapes from a bitter man:jump:

[RichieP]

People in almost all walks of life have lost perspective and the ability to reason.


Disagree 100%.

They will come next year and once again dominate completely as the venue and 3rd surface remain the same. I agree 100% with the article JR put up. I don't care who the heck wrote it. It is the truth like it or not.

I really don't see how they can call the races "dirt mile" etc etc anymore.

We will continue to get our asses handed to us on a platter for the foreseeable future if we compete on this synthetic surface against the Euros.

Breeder's Cup will be "Euro's Cup" until fundamental changes in American breeding take place if we continue to see synthetics replace the dirt racing in the BC.

[ryesteve]

Disagree 100%.

They will come next year and once again dominate completely as the venue and 3rd surface remain the same. I agree 100% with the article JR put up. I don't care who the heck wrote it. It is the truth like it or not.
I must've lost the ability to reason too, because I don't think you guys are really disagreeing. The article claims we've seen a seismic shift in the balance of power; PA calls BS, and you seem to be arguing that all we saw were the Euros doing well on a surface they prefer... so aren't you saying the article's premise is BS as well? The "truth" part of the article is yes, Euros will be back in force next year, but assuming the BC gets back to running on dirt after that, don't we all expect to see the Euros return to the form we're used to seeing from them in the BC? You don't really agree with the article's premise that this is the dawn of Euro domination, do you??

[Charlie D]

Marathon - US challenge here is non existant
Mile turf - US challenge here is Kip deville, a decent horse, but he would be beaten in all the Top Mile races in Europe
Juvvi turf - US challenge here is ????
BC Turf - US Challlenge here is non existant
Classic - US challenge here is Curlin, a Top horse, but he was up against Top class Euro and not average US



This is why Euro's won 5-9

[Bobzilla]

I must've lost the ability to reason too, because I don't think you guys are really disagreeing. The article claims we've seen a seismic shift in the balance of power; PA calls BS, and you seem to be arguing that all we saw were the Euros doing well on a surface they prefer... so aren't you saying the article's premise is BS as well? The "truth" part of the article is yes, Euros will be back in force next year, but assuming the BC gets back to running on dirt after that, don't we all expect to see the Euros return to the form we're used to seeing from them in the BC? You don't really agree with the article's premise that this is the dawn of Euro domination, do you??


Steve, in your gutt, do you feel we will ever see another Breeders' Cup where the main track races are conducted on dirt? In the wake of this past BC, with all the feel good energy and declarations of magnificence and bring on the new world order of horse racing, it's hard for me to see North American racing not continue to accomodate the Europeans preference that we conduct these races on what they deem a level playing field. The BC, primarily driven this day of age to expand the brand name will most likely view synthetics as an essential key to this end. I think it's 50/50 CD and Belmont convert within the next two to three years. Current economics is probably the only thing stopping it.

[Charlie D]

The UK media seem to forget Top UK turf sprinter Fleeting Spirit turned up and was stuffed by the home team

[RichieP]

You don't really agree with the article's premise that this is the dawn of Euro domination, do you??

absolutely agree IF the BC continues to run "dirt" races on the 3rd surface.

We will get smashed next year as well quite possibly on a larger scale.

[Charlie D]

absolutely agree IF the BC continues to run "dirt" races on the 3rd surface.

We will get smashed next year as well quite possibly on a larger scale.


Richie

You will get smashed every year if you don't have the horse(s)


UK/Irish/Aussie got smashed in races by Frenchie in 2008

Why?? because they did not have horses with the ability of a Marchand D'or, a Zarkava

[Shenanigans]

Just a thought: How much of the Euro dominance was due in part that maybe a large number of U.S. runners were off steroids for the first time? Not saying it's the case, but not every track has yet banned steroids. Maybe this time next year, the field will be a little more even since the banning will be more widespread and there will be less U.S horses on steroids to begin with. Just a thought.

[ryesteve]

Steve, in your gutt, do you feel we will ever see another Breeders' Cup where the main track races are conducted on dirt?Maybe I'm in denial, but yes, I do. I don't think people were thrilled with the size of the handle, and I also expect there's plenty of carping going on from US horseman who feel they were disadvantaged.

I also don't see any desire within NYRA to switch to synthetics, and I also can't conceive of a Kentucky Derby run on something other than dirt. I just think there are too many traditionalists still in charge, and I don't get the sense that everyone is loving these synthetics, as evidenced by the griping from some horseman, and horseplayers who seem to be indicating from handle figures that they're not exactly endorsing it either.


absolutely agree IF the BC continues to run "dirt" races on the 3rd surface.I'd go along with that, but as I said above, I don't believe that's where we're headed, and I didn't get the sense that the author was giving credit to the surface.

[Charlie D]

Maybe I'm in denial, but yes, I do. I don't think people were thrilled with the size of the handle, and I also expect there's plenty of carping going on from US horseman who feel they were disadvantaged.


Look at Sires of Pro-Ride winners, Street Cry, Elusive quality, Real quiet, Harlands Holiday. These horses come from your own backyard, these horses are DIRT BLOOD


Any carping, is just sour grapes by US horsemen, bettor imo

[ryesteve]

Look at Sires of Pro-Ride winners, Street Cry, Elusive quality, Real quiet, Harlands Holiday. These horses come from your own backyard, these horses are DIRT BLOOD


Any carping is just sour grapes by US horsemenYou point to the sires as if every horse sired by xxxxxx is going to be best on surface yyyyyy. Too bad the breeding business isn't as a simple as that. You can continue to believe whatever you want, but until I see Euros coming over here and enjoying similar dominance on dirt, it's a stretch to attribute last weekend's results to anything other than surface.

[magwell]

Look at Sires of Pro-Ride winners, Street Cry, Elusive quality, Real quiet, Harlands Holiday. These horses come from your own backyard, these horses are DIRT BLOOD


Any carping, is just sour grapes by US horsemen, bettor imo Pro-ride is the future of this game ....face it.... great racing, nobody carted off, it will be even better next year, we will get to see the best of the best horses in the world as long as they keep it on pro-ride :)

[Charlie D]

Did i blame Dirt when Swain was stuffed? NO i didn't, did i blame Dirt when Sahkee was stuffed? NO i didn't

Top horses beaten by BETTER on the day, just like what happened at the 2008 Breeders Cup meet

Should these Top horse from other countries stop trying to win BC on Dirt - NO WAY

Will i cry like a baby when they get beat by BETTER - NO WAY

[Charlie D]

we will get to see the best of the best horses in the world as long as they keep it on pro-ride :)


You get to see best in World when an owner/trainer thinks his horse has a chance of winning races like Classic, be it run on Dirt, Pro-Ride, Tapeta, or Turf

Hong Kong and Japan will probably be next stop for horses such as these

[Charlie D]

People in almost all walks of life have lost perspective and the ability to reason. It's very alarming.

First off, the Euros have generally been miserable failures in the BC time and again. This year they manage to string a few wins together, and all of a sudden, the world has changed. Yeah. Ok. Whatever.
All I've heard this year is "3yo crop sucks except for MAYBE Big Brown" and "Older horses pretty much suck, except for Curlin"

Well, given that, why should the world change just because the Euros took advantage of a seriously weak American year (not to mention the first BC run on an artificial surface)?

I don't get why and how the game suddenly changed. Unless of course they install artificial surfaces at Churchill and Belmont tomorrow....


That in bold is why people are bleeting and that was your problem in 2008


If Curlin had stuffed RP, Henry etc these discussions would not exist, there would be discussions claiming Pro- Ride is Great and Curlin a Superstar though

[ryesteve]

Did i blame Dirt when Swain was stuffed? NO i didn't, did i blame Dirt when Sahkee was stuffed? NO i You should have. I would have agreed with you. Why would anyone expect any horse to run its best race on a surface for which it's unsuited?

[Bobzilla]

Did i blame Dirt when Swain was stuffed? NO i didn't, did i blame Dirt when Sahkee was stuffed? NO i didn't

Top horses beaten by BETTER on the day, just like what happened at the 2008 Breeders Cup meet

Should these Top horse from other countries stop trying to win BC on Dirt - NO WAY

Will i cry like a baby when they get beat by BETTER - NO WAY


I actually backed Swain that day but I'm inclined not to blame the surface at all but rather the poor display of horsemenship by this year's Classic's winning rider. The excessive and needless use of left-handed whip in the stretch run is what I think did Swain in as clearly a straighter course for the wire would have improved his chances markedly. That he was as close as he was at the end of that race is a true testament to the horse's class and athleticism. He almost beat one of the most accomplished American fields ever assembled for a Classic running on their preferred surface and probably one that wasn't his own. Awesome Again, Victory Gallop, Coronado's Quest, Silver Charm, Skip Away, what an impressive field.

[Charlie D]

I actually backed Swain that day but I'm inclined not to blame the surface at all but rather the poor display of horsemenship by this year's Classic's winning rider


If i remember correctly Bobzilla, the jockey got slated for the ride on both sides of the pond

[foregoforever]

Wouldn't it be interesting if NYRA scheduled next year's JCGC for Breeders Cup day?

Why not? Nobody's going to want to prep for the Classic at Belmont anyway.

[Charlie D]

I do not see any reason for a US horse not to go Curlin route to 2009 Classic

It's maybe a good idea for Euro to miss Arc though, as it's seems to be a big ask for a horse to run well there and then run well at BC a couple of weeks later

[JustRalph]

When 2 or 3, maybe more top owners/trainers skip the Breeders Cup next year because of the pro-ride......... we shall see how the balance of power has shifted all right. They won't mind a year off while they wait for Churchill

[Valuist]

It will be the same thing next year. Who spends all the money on the top yearlings? Its not the U.S. owners.

Things WILL be different in 2010, when the event switches back to REAL dirt, where it was meant to be run on.

[PaceAdvantage]

If Curlin had stuffed RP, Henry etc these discussions would not exist, there would be discussions claiming Pro- Ride is Great and Curlin a Superstar thoughWhere you been? I've been saying Curlin is being overrated ever since his Stephen Foster...I also proclaimed months ago that I thought BOTH Big Brown and Curlin would be beaten by Euros in the Breeders' Cup (should they run).

[PaceAdvantage]

sour grapes from a bitter man:jump:Your picks sucked just as hard as mine. So I wouldn't be doing too much "big man" talking if I were you.