How satisfied were you with the Breeders Cup Racing

[JustRalph]

I am interested in comments on the racing..........

I just might go fishing this weekend next year............ :lol:

It reminded me very much of Keeneland.

[Charlie D]

I thought it went well

Classic was a proper race imo, Top dirt horses against Top turf horses against Top synthetic horses


That is what should happen and hopefully others will see it that way

I look forward to next year,, yer never know, there may be more horses from Japan, Hong Kong, Australia, South Africa and then it can really be called a "World Championship"

[Charlie D]

Look at these "Dirt" horses

Music Note, Cocoa Beach, Curlin, Indian Blessiing, Midnight Lute and tell me they ran poorly on Pro-Ride

Shame horses like Proud Spell, Big Brown didn't make it imo

[Tom]

Cha-ching. Cha ching.
Dirt = bad! Poly, by golly!
Pro ride or no ride!
:lol::lol::lol:

[LottaKash]

I think I may have mis-interpreted or misunderstood Nick Mordin's insights on some of the cup horses, in any event if left to my own devices, I would have turned a profit and a bit more than that......Being a Harness guy and a bit out of touch these days with t-breds, I underestimated my ability to spot fit and well classified horses, and put more of my kash on horses that I was uncomfy playing on another handicappers say so.....Never happens again....haha......:D

best,

[beertapper]

i wish all racing was broadcast in HD... it makes such a big difference. really enjoyed today's card and look forward to it again next year.

all horses came out safe and sound, as far as i know... a big plus

[Marshall Bennett]

Thought it was okay , actually better than I had expected . The " pro ride "
surface seems to be the best of the synthetics , but its not dirt . I beleive some of the surprising results may not have happened elsewhere .

[ryesteve]

As long as most meaningful racing in this country is still contested on dirt, it makes no sense to run the Breeder's Cup on this stuff. Makes as much sense as deciding to contest the Stanley Cup on roller skates. Sure, you'll probably still get some really entertaining games, but the result isn't as likely to bear any relevance.

[Charlie D]

Celebration Mile Group 1 winner
Breeders Cup Classic Grade 1 winner
Sussex Stakes 2nd Group 1
Prix Jean Prat 2nd Group 1

and so on


That will have Breeders queing at Ravens Pass' door and that is the relevance of todays result

[OTM Al]

It ran fine and no one got hurt but it was essentially 14 races on turf.

[Thekherham]

I had a chance to see all 14 races because they were on TSN here in Canada, but I didn't know they were on Friday, so I missed the first three Breeders Cup races. But I did see Zenyatta's impressive win.

As for Curlin, I don't know why I picked him. I told my wife I wouldn't be surprised if he lost, and he did.

Being one of those people who would watch the most minor stakes race as long as horses were running in it, I liked what I saw... although I noticed on Saturday it was becoming The Curlin Show. It seemed every fifteen minutes or so it was Curlin this and Curlin that.

Too bad he disappointed.

[ryesteve]

That will have Breeders queing at Ravens Pass' door and that is the relevance of todays resultI don't think we ought to be judging "relevance" on the basis of how the result enriches the owner of the winner.

Unless there are no other options, this country doesn't honor turf horses with year-end awards. That is why contesting the sport's "championship day" on turf and near-turf has limited relevance and context to the rest of the season that preceded it.

[Charlie D]

What should we judge on, some award??, but wait, what a load of rubbish they are, i mean who really cares about an award, surely winning BC Classics, Guineas, Arc's Kentucky Derby's , Dubai World cup's etc tell who who is best

They certainly tell the bettor, the breeder, the racing journalist

[DeanT]

I can understand the people that did not like it, and I respect the opinion.

I personally loved the day(s) from a pure entertainment perspective. The BC is really entertainment. We grind all year trying to make money and trying to play the game with odds lines and science and bankroll management. I think one day for the fan to go out, in nice sunny weather, watch it in sharp HD and get to see fine athletes is a good thing.

[Norm]

It was a showcase event for European racing. European horses on a European styled racetrack running European type races. It was entertaining since we rarely get to see these horses, but it had nothing to do with American racing. The BC will never again be the Championship series of American racing. These races proved nothing but that European horses run well on European tracks. What I believe is that the Belmont Fall meet is, by default, the American Championship series as it was in the past before the BC was invented..

[LottaKash]

[QUOTE=Charlie D]I thought it went well

Classic was a proper race imo, Top dirt horses against Top turf horses against Top synthetic horses


That is what should happen and hopefully others will see it that way [QUOTE]


Charlie D, I agree with you on this....As handicappers we are always balking when something new pops up and throws a monkey-wrench into our hard-earned way of doing things.. I think eventually some of the good and very good players will eventually find a way to capitalize on the concept of now having 3-main racing surfaces to consider, rather than the tradional 2-surfaces....I am certain their are secrets to be unlocked for the ones that want it bad enough, and are willing to chart new waters and do the grind to find them.........The old databases whether large or small wil now have to accomodate this new way of thinking, and I think that this especially pisses off the ones who have invested an enormous amount of time and money in assembling their records, as now it is almost like starting over......We must change or die....:jump: ...I think.

best,

[DeanT]

Bad, bad, bad handle day according to Crist. The 3M pick 6 guarantee did not even fill according to him.

[Charlie D]

It was a showcase event for European racing

Yep

Midshipman is Euro alright

Sire: Unbridled Song

Won: Breeders' Cup Juvenile-G1, Florida Derby-G1, Wood Memorial-G1, Olympic H.

Dam: Fleet Lady

At 2:
3rd Calif. Breeders Champion S. (Filly Div.) At 3:
Won Fleet Treat S., Andestine H., Fairfield S.
2nd CERF S.

At 4:
Won La Canada S. (G2), El Encino S. (G2), B. Thoughtful S.
2nd Milady Breeders' Cup H. (G1)

Calif. Champion 3-year-old filly.



Ravens Pass may have run on turf in Euroland up to Classic, but he's Dirt blood and from US stock

Sire: Elusive Quality

At 3: 2nd King's Bishop S. (G2,7F)
At 4: 3rd Tom Fool H. (G2,7F)
At 5: won Jaipur H. (G3,7F), Poker S. (G3,8F) NWR: 8FT- 1:31.63


Dam: Ascutney

Won: Miesque Stakes (G3), Salem County S
2nd Senorita Stakes (G3)
3rd Miss Grillo Stakes (G3)



Midnight Lute

Sire: Real Quiet

At 2:
Won Hollywood Futurity -G1
3rd Indian Nations Futurity -L, Kentucky Jockey Club S. -G3At 3:
Won Kentucky Derby -G1, Preakness S. -G1
2nd Belmont S. -G1, Santa Anita Derby -G1, San Felipe S. -G2

At 4:
Won Hollywood Gold Cup -G1, Pimlico Special -G1
2nd New Orleans H. -G3, Texas Mile S. -G3
3rd Massachusetts H. -G2




Don't think there is any need to go on

[098poi]

As long as most meaningful racing in this country is still contested on dirt, it makes no sense to run the Breeder's Cup on this stuff. Makes as much sense as deciding to contest the Stanley Cup on roller skates. Sure, you'll probably still get some really entertaining games, but the result isn't as likely to bear any relevance.

I have to agree. When others were bitching about the BC being held at Santa Anita because of the surface I didn't think it was that big a deal. After the fact I have changed my mind. I thoroughly enjoyed the racing, beautiful Santa Anita with some exciting races and quality horses, but it all seems kind of pointless. Are these 2 days of entertainment or are they competitive sports events to see who's best in their field? As far as Curlin goes I was sad to see him lose but at least he did make a move to let us know he gave it his best shot. Curlin in case we don't see you race again, thanks for the memories!

[Charlie D]

Yep

Midshipman is Euro alright

Sire: Unbridled Song

Won: Breeders' Cup Juvenile-G1, Florida Derby-G1, Wood Memorial-G1, Olympic H.

Dam: Fleet Lady

At 2:
3rd Calif. Breeders Champion S. (Filly Div.) At 3:
Won Fleet Treat S., Andestine H., Fairfield S.
2nd CERF S.

At 4:
Won La Canada S. (G2), El Encino S. (G2), B. Thoughtful S.
2nd Milady Breeders' Cup H. (G1)

Calif. Champion 3-year-old filly.



Ravens Pass may have run on turf in Euroland up to Classic, but he's Dirt blood and from US stock

Sire: Elusive Quality

At 3: 2nd King's Bishop S. (G2,7F)
At 4: 3rd Tom Fool H. (G2,7F)
At 5: won Jaipur H. (G3,7F), Poker S. (G3,8F) NWR: 8FT- 1:31.63


Dam: Ascutney

Won: Miesque Stakes (G3), Salem County S
2nd Senorita Stakes (G3)
3rd Miss Grillo Stakes (G3)



Midnight Lute

Sire: Real Quiet

At 2:
Won Hollywood Futurity -G1
3rd Indian Nations Futurity -L, Kentucky Jockey Club S. -G3At 3:
Won Kentucky Derby -G1, Preakness S. -G1
2nd Belmont S. -G1, Santa Anita Derby -G1, San Felipe S. -G2

At 4:
Won Hollywood Gold Cup -G1, Pimlico Special -G1
2nd New Orleans H. -G3, Texas Mile S. -G3
3rd Massachusetts H. -G2




Don't think there is any need to go on
Forgot,

Info from http://www.pedigreequery.com/

[WinterTriangle]

Look at these "Dirt" horses

Music Note, Cocoa Beach, Curlin, Indian Blessiing, Midnight Lute and tell me they ran poorly on Pro-Ride



But the ratio of dirt horses winning was poor overall.

[Charlie D]

But the ratio of dirt horses winning was poor overall.



The ratio of good, very good Dirt horses at Breeders Cup was poor, you could count them on one hand

Curlin, Midnight Lute, Indian Blessing

Where was Big Brown, Proud Spell, Commentator - missing

Average Dirt horse cannot beat good synthetic, turf horse, good Dirt cannot beat very good synthetic, turf horse etc on a fair track

[ryesteve]

What should we judge onA race run on DIRT. Why are you being purposely dense about this? That is how we contest nearly all races of importance in this country; running what is construed as THE most important race on anything other dirt, makes no sense at all.

If there were no such thing as artificial surfaces, how would you feel if the entire Breeder's Cup card was contested on turf? Are you going to lie for the sake of an argument and tell us it wouldn't matter, or are you going to be honest and admit that such an idea would be completely absurd? If it's the latter, then this is pretty much exactly what you saw yesterday.

[Charlie D]

That is how you USED to contest nearly all the races

Get with the times, there is NOW a 3rd surface in US racing

[Imriledup]

Listen, here's what you need to know. Pro ride doesn't have nearly as much kickback as conventional dirt, isnt that what we want? Don't we want our horses in the back of the pack to be able to show their true abilities and not have frontrunners kick dirt on them? People who say that they hate closers dominating are saying they'd rather have the races decided on who gets dirt kicked on them and who does not?

Closers are doing well NOT because of the physical makeup of proride, but because there's no kickback and the closers can use their natural rallies more effectively. If pro ride provided tremendous kickback, speed would do much better.........that's not what we want, what we want is every horse to have a fair shot and with pro ride, it gives horses with closing styles a fair shot as they dont have to deal with dirt flying in their faces.

[Charlie D]

Oh and btw ryesteve

I do not appreciate being insulted by someone who does not know me from adam and more so when i have not insulted them


If you cannot act like a grown up, don't bother replying as i will just ignore you

[ryesteve]

That is how you USED to contest nearly all the races

Get with the times, there is NOW a 3rd surface in US racing
How 'bout if YOU get with the facts. Draw up a list of the Grade I's run in this country and look at the dirt/poly breakout, and THEN try to deny that dirt is still the surface that an overwhelming majority of those races are run over.

[ryesteve]

Now I get it...
I can't believe I didn't notice until now that you're typing from the UK. No wonder you're trying to defend yesteday's BC. This whole argument is completely moot now...

[Charlie D]

How 'bout if YOU get with the facts. Draw up a list of the Grade I's run in this country and look at the dirt/poly breakout, and THEN try to deny that dirt is still the surface that an overwhelming majority of those races are run over.

How about you do your own research

[ryesteve]

Oh and btw ryesteve

I do not appreciate being insulted
No, it would've been an insult if I called you dense... I merely suggested you were putting on the act to further the argument.

[ryesteve]

How about you do your own researchBecause I'm not the one who's displaying an ignorance of the facts.

Note: See, I'm not calling you ignorant, so don't get all pouty again. I merely saying, correctly, that you are ignorant of the facts if you are insisting that we run tons of Grade I's on artificial surfaces.

But please, feel free to put me on ignore anyway.

[BUD]

That was my first Breeders Cup...Last year would have been the first but I was too sick to even watch ,follow , nor remember it.......


I enjoyed it, my buddy in Wiltshire and I had our little rivalry....Charlie am I spelling that town in the UK properly?

Also seeing that I have nothing but time and watch racing from waking to sleep, for the most part it was cool to see some of the over seas horses that I have watched come over here and compete.....

If I was up to it I would meet you at the lake and we'd have a great fishing expedition.








Sorry about the awful gramma...tough morning.

[Charlie D]

Now I get it...
I can't believe I didn't notice until now that you're typing from the UK. No wonder you're trying to defend yesteday's BC. This whole argument is completely moot now...

Oh i see, because i'm from UK (and proud of it btw) i have a turf, synthetic preference over Dirt


Do you also presume everyone from Middle east is a terrorist too

[ryesteve]

Oh i see, because i'm from UK (and proud of it btw) i have a turf, synthetic preference over DirtNot necessarily, but you would have an interest in seeing your hometown horses put on a good show. If surface is the means of doing that, it's completely understandable that you'd be in favor of it. I'm not criticizing that at all. It's helped me to understand why you've persisted with such an untenable argument.

[Charlie D]

Bud

Wiltshire is correct spelling and i'm not sure about this without checking tbh, but i think it's name of county in UK and not a town

[Charlie D]

Not necessarily, but you would have an interest in seeing your hometown horses put on a good show. If surface is the means of doing that, it's completely understandable that you'd be in favor of it. I'm not criticizing that at all. It's helped me to understand why you've persisted with such an untenable argument.

The only interest i have in seeing is the best horse winning, it does not matter to me if it's a horse from US, UK, France, Germany, Ireland , Japan, Hong Kong or any other country you care to mention




As i've stated you do not know me from adam, so don't continue with this tripe

[Nacumi]

It was a showcase event for European racing. European horses on a European styled racetrack running European type races. It was entertaining since we rarely get to see these horses, but it had nothing to do with American racing. The BC will never again be the Championship series of American racing.

Aren't these supposed to be the Breeder's Cup "WORLD" championships?
When did it become a series exclusive to the lower 48? :confused:
Besides the surface, one other thing was clear: the American horses can't compete with their global counterparts without steroids, especially on a "dead" surface that requires stamina and fitness.
Frankly, I was more surprised by the Euro performance on the green concrete, a very stiff turf course. It was clear Soldier of Fortune didn't relish it, but nearly every other invader skipped over it.

[ryesteve]

Aren't these supposed to be the Breeder's Cup "WORLD" championships?We also call it "The WORLD Series", but I don't see any teams from Japan or Cuba getting an invite, so let's not get caught up in the moniker. Regardless of what they want to call it, it's still an american show that should be more reflective of american racing.

[DanG]

We also call it "The WORLD Series", but I don't see any teams from Japan or Cuba getting an invite, so let's not get caught up in the moniker. Regardless of what they want to call it, it's still an american show that should be more reflective of american racing.
It did reflect “American Racing”. Did I miss when California succeeded from the union?

• The 2008 racing was logical to those who follow So Cal racing closely.
• Just as last years Monmouth wet dream made sense to those in the mid-Atlantic.
• Just as the 2001 Belmont wind and sandy kick back was factored in by NY players.
• Just as the 2006 Churchill rail bias played a role until track maintenance launched a blitzkrieg before the classic.

I think we can agree (or maybe not) that naming ANYTHING “world” and restricting it to your nation just smacks of arrogance. It’s like selling NY pizza in Istanbul for goodness sakes.

This sport has roots long before we became a nation. We should be proud of how many Kentucky bloodlines dominate this historic industry. We should also not be shocked when our top yearlings have gone abroad for decades and when they return to our shores…their top class.

I’m sure this won’t be a popular statement, but I’m frankly embarrassed we virtually never compete in the Arc for example. When I was talking with English players I could have sworn they had more enthusiasm for our Breeders Cup then we did. Not just for this year concerning the surface either…I mean the entire history of it.

It’s odd to me…I enjoy good racing regardless of location. I just wish we could contract our foal crop and track schedule to improve our quality and I think that long overdue process is finally under way. :ThmbUp:

[BUD]

take this with a grain of salt seeing I am the source..

But is it possible the Euro jocks may be better today than what we have?

I do not know enough to pass judgement either way, that is why I am putting it out there for you........Especially someone like Charlie who knows his own racing brand and the American brand as well......Should have a good take on this..

[racefinder2]

Absolute Crap.

Curlin, the best horse out there, did nothing but go up and down on the shredded rubber while trying to sustain his move. Not only does the poly take all the speed out of the horses, it actually makes the races play shorter as well, as the runners merely bounce happily along until about the last quarter, when the ones that can run on the stuff do so, and the ones that make a move before that just get swallowed up....this isnt horse racing, its a bad joke.

No mas. Hopefully, someone will put the polytrack experiment to an unceremonious end.

[ryesteve]

It did reflect “American Racing”. Did I miss when California succeeded from the union?Did I miss when pro-ride became the de facto standard via Santa Anita's endorsement? "American racing" is not defined by the surfaces that SoCal chooses to install. You've got to be a lot more comprehensive than that... as I said before, as long as the ovewhelming majority of GI races in this country are run on dirt, that is going to be what defines "American racing". I don't think making the anlogy that pro-ride fits in with the variations you'd see across various dirt surfaces is valid, because it's far too different.

[Charlie D]

Bud

I'm probably last person you should ask for opinion on comparing jockeys as it's not really a factor i look at.

Comparing horses and prices is what i concerntrate

[goingbroke]

Did anyone else listen it to it on sirius? It was awful, I understand because the crowd noise and the echo and such. But I couldn't hear anything and gave up until my sirius displayed the winner.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

I understand the dirt vs. synthetic argument, and certain individuals absolute inability to adapt, but where is the similar argument about turf courses?

Maybe the concept that grass is grass allows turf punters to sleep at night, but I ask, how dare the BC committee choose to run on Bermuda when everyone knows American Turf racing is run on Kentucky Bluegrass? None of that Bentgrass, Ryegrass, or Zoysia for me! Next thing you know, track superintendents will be talking Poiana behind closed doors.

Save the Fieldturf analogy, as the cost of the wear and tear makes it infeasible.

I understand that the felt that poker is played on is somewhat consistant. Now there is an American game that might fit the synthetic naysayer's eye.:lol:

[DJofSD]

I thought the races as an event went well.

I think the participation by the Euro runners and their greater success this year over last year will put more pressure on track management at Churchill Downs, Belmont Part and others to install an all weather surface.

[chickenhead]

we had exciting races, and nobody broke down. That's pretty successful. I really enjoyed the increased Euro involvement. Move the Distaff and the FMT back over to Saturday, and it would have been great.

[DeanT]

Events like this, if they keep going, are game changers, imo.

For years the "run like a scared cat as fast as you can" dominated the breed. The needle was tilting far too much on that side. And I think we are paying for it. In a generation or two, maybe this can change with these surfaces with the big races.

It has been spoken about by many that the Dubai races are the true festival, with horses from all over the world. This year and next, the Breeders Cup is saying "no you aren't".

I know as a horseplayer I hate change, but this change this year, looks to me like it is something worth changing for. That was a unique, interesting event and I think its long-term implications are good for the sport.

[DJofSD]

I know as a horseplayer I hate change, but this change this year, looks to me like it is something worth changing for. That was a unique, interesting event and I think its long-term implications are good for the sport.Well stated and I agree.

[Norm]

Don't think there is any need to go on
Breeding is the most important aspect of racing . . . until the starting gate springs open for the first time. These races were won by horses that have a) raced on grass or b) previously demonstrated abilities in artificial racing. Dirt horses ran poorly. The lone exception was Midnight Lute who demonstrated versatility.

Aren't these supposed to be the Breeder's Cup "WORLD" championships?
When did it become a series exclusive to the lower 48?
This is the first year these races were billed as "World" Championships.
The point is, that while the new BC races are a fine showcase of international racing, it can no longer be regarded as the championship series for American racing where all serious, traditional racing is done on dirt.

[DeanT]

it can no longer be regarded as the championship series for American racing where all serious, traditional racing is done on dirt.

Traditions change. Now to be considered a true great horse you will have to race and win on virtually anything. Am I the only person who thinks that the Curlin love-fest is misconstrued after yesterday? We are supposed to believe this is the greatest horse in the world, or maybe of the last quarter century. I think that is bull. He could not win on turf and he could not win on all weather.

If you want to be considered great you have to win on something other than dirt in 2008.

I think this is great. This game is global, and the world is shrinking. We need to open ourselves up to change and if we do we might grow. Breeding horses for five furlong sprints on dirt with a horse built like a brick chit house running on 4 centimetre cannon bones is over. I think it is not soon enough.

[toetoe]

Don't think there is any need to go on[/QUOTE]



But oh, how you DO go on, sir. May I bestow upon you the affectionate appellation of Energizer Bunny ?

[Tom]

I think they should replace Trever next year. I just cannot follow a race he calls. To say he is to very good is being kind. Vic would be much better. Let Trevor interview Muttonchops.

[toetoe]

You've managed to diminish both gentlemen, Tom --- unwittingly, I'm sure. :)

Let's not start looking for a wife before we are widowed/divorced. :D

[GaryG]

I loved it. It was good to see the euros get a fair shake for a change. The American breed has become diluted as we produce endless numbers of cheap horses to run short distances at podunk tracks. I have long admired the european style, no drugs, limited number of horses bred and limited number of races. As a rule their G2 and G3 horses are competitive with (or better than) our best. Flush with this success, they will be coming in even larger numbers next year. I hate this "us and them" bs like it is the bleeping olympics. The animal is what we should focus on. <gets off soap box>

[samyn on the green]

I agree with Gary G. For years Americans have bred cheap speed horses and run them over speed favoring bullrings. The culmination of the cheap speed breeding was the GI win of Sinister Minister in the Bluegrass a few years ago. This short sighted breeding of horses have resulted in short horses that can not go a distance of ground and break down. This is where the synthetic factor kicks in. The bright side of synthetic surfaces is that it promotes breeding stouter horses that can run far and are not cheap speed precocious breakdown candidates.

The BC races seemed formful to me and I thought the event was a success. However the reaction from most of my horseplayer buddies was overwhelmingly negative.

[Bruddah]

It was a showcase event for European racing. European horses on a European styled racetrack running European type races. It was entertaining since we rarely get to see these horses, but it had nothing to do with American racing. The BC will never again be the Championship series of American racing. These races proved nothing but that European horses run well on European tracks. What I believe is that the Belmont Fall meet is, by default, the American Championship series as it was in the past before the BC was invented..


Amen Bruddah! The Sport has narrowed me down to playing Oaklawn and the Triple Crown. If that goes Poly...I am through with horse racing. Basically this style of racing is cantering until warmed up and sprinting for the last 3 furlongs. :ThmbDown:

[thespaah]

Oh i see, because i'm from UK (and proud of it btw) i have a turf, synthetic preference over Dirt


Do you also presume everyone from Middle east is a terrorist tooUm chuckles..that's a ridiculous comparison.....

[Niko]

It did reflect “American Racing”. Did I miss when California succeeded from the union?

• The 2008 racing was logical to those who follow So Cal racing closely.
• Just as last years Monmouth wet dream made sense to those in the mid-Atlantic.
• Just as the 2001 Belmont wind and sandy kick back was factored in by NY players.
• Just as the 2006 Churchill rail bias played a role until track maintenance launched a blitzkrieg before the classic.

I think we can agree (or maybe not) that naming ANYTHING “world” and restricting it to your nation just smacks of arrogance. It’s like selling NY pizza in Istanbul for goodness sakes.

This sport has roots long before we became a nation. We should be proud of how many Kentucky bloodlines dominate this historic industry. We should also not be shocked when our top yearlings have gone abroad for decades and when they return to our shores…their top class.

I’m sure this won’t be a popular statement, but I’m frankly embarrassed we virtually never compete in the Arc for example. When I was talking with English players I could have sworn they had more enthusiasm for our Breeders Cup then we did. Not just for this year concerning the surface either…I mean the entire history of it.

It’s odd to me…I enjoy good racing regardless of location. I just wish we could contract our foal crop and track schedule to improve our quality and I think that long overdue process is finally under way. :ThmbUp:

Well said....

[Nets]

It did reflect “American Racing”. Did I miss when California succeeded from the union?

• The 2008 racing was logical to those who follow So Cal racing closely.
• Just as last years Monmouth wet dream made sense to those in the mid-Atlantic.
• Just as the 2001 Belmont wind and sandy kick back was factored in by NY players.
• Just as the 2006 Churchill rail bias played a role until track maintenance launched a blitzkrieg before the classic.

I think we can agree (or maybe not) that naming ANYTHING “world” and restricting it to your nation just smacks of arrogance. It’s like selling NY pizza in Istanbul for goodness sakes.

This sport has roots long before we became a nation. We should be proud of how many Kentucky bloodlines dominate this historic industry. We should also not be shocked when our top yearlings have gone abroad for decades and when they return to our shores…their top class.

I’m sure this won’t be a popular statement, but I’m frankly embarrassed we virtually never compete in the Arc for example. When I was talking with English players I could have sworn they had more enthusiasm for our Breeders Cup then we did. Not just for this year concerning the surface either…I mean the entire history of it.

It’s odd to me…I enjoy good racing regardless of location. I just wish we could contract our foal crop and track schedule to improve our quality and I think that long overdue process is finally under way. :ThmbUp:

:ThmbUp: Great post.
Considering the lack of quality racing we see most days, I for one enjoyed seeing so many good horses at the same time. Would it be better if the rest of the world went to fragile, speed-only horses so that it would be a more level playing field? Or just maybe we could start breeding for more stamina, get rid of the drugs and join the rest of the world. Choice seems clear to me. As far as racing surfaces, I think I'll stay out of that debate.;)

[lamboguy]

is in big trouble. this last weekend of breeders cup proved that people watch and bet on competive racing, even during a rough economy.

there are ways the racing industry can thrive on this opportunity that now exists. first thing they must understand is that a cusomer is not a given these days.

they must stop fighting with each other, and look at adw's as friends not the enemy. also they must not depend solely on slot machines as their salvation. its not!

give the customer a product and they will either come or bet on it!

[PaceAdvantage]

Closers are doing well NOT because of the physical makeup of proride, but because there's no kickback and the closers can use their natural rallies more effectively. If pro ride provided tremendous kickback, speed would do much better.........that's not what we want, what we want is every horse to have a fair shot and with pro ride, it gives horses with closing styles a fair shot as they dont have to deal with dirt flying in their faces.I just have to jump in here for a moment. Turfway and its polytrack at times produces TREMENDOUS kickback....not sure about Keeneland, as I can't recall as readily as Turfway.

I don't think speed has done nearly as well at Turfway since the switch to polytrack. Anyone care to agree or disagree and thus debunk the strength of the kickback angle?

[BillW]

I just have to jump in here for a moment. Turfway and its polytrack at times produces TREMENDOUS kickback....not sure about Keeneland, as I can't recall as readily as Turfway.

I don't think speed has done nearly as well at Turfway since the switch to polytrack. Anyone care to agree or disagree and thus debunk the strength of the kickback angle?

The kickback is mostly powdery, not clumps that might seem more like rocks at 40 MPH. Who knows, it may make a difference. :confused:

I'm not sure about Keeneland as I've only seen races in the daytime and I've noticed the kickback at Turfway at night under the lights. (I have watched races from the rail of both tracks)

[LottaKash]

The kickback is mostly powdery, not clumps that might seem more like rocks at 40 MPH. Who knows, it may make a difference. :confused:

I'm not sure about Keeneland as I've only seen races in the daytime and I've noticed the kickback at Turfway at night under the lights. (I have watched races from the rail of both tracks)

But, it is synthetic, man-made, and just as with asbestos or fibreglass fibres, I suspect somewhere down the road that there will be some sort of Mesothylioma disease or something of that ilk, that will wventually plague the Jockeys and track attendants who were subjucted to that so-called powder.......I hope not.

best,

[BillW]

But, it is synthetic, man-made, and just as with asbestos or fibreglass fibres, I suspect somewhere down the road that there will be some sort of Mesothylioma disease or something of that ilk, that will wventually plague the Jockeys and track attendants who were subjucted to that so-called powder.......I hope not.

best,

Do you have documentation for this? Otherwise that's a pretty far reach.

[LottaKash]

Do you have documentation for this? Otherwise that's a pretty far reach.

How can I answer you on this?...Man has this grand concept that whatever God had created, that somehow he got it all wrong.....In this spirit, we have devised new ways to try and outdo what God has done and they are too numerous to mention in one breath.,but, I will try..... We have polluted our rivers, poisoned our air, ruined and depleted our agriculture, poisoned our beef and poultry with steroids and anti-biotics to the point that our little girls are growing breasts at the age of 5 and we are no longer able to fend off disease effectively because of those great antibiotics, the FDA and Big Pharma has seen to it that the side effects of modern made drugs are more harmful than the malady that was plaguing us to begin with, our vaccines are loaded with mercury (as a preservative Hah), We have a higher incidence of Cancer, Diabetes and Heart Disease on a scale that is unprecedented in man's history....Fibre glass and plastic fibres are known carcingogens, as bad as any black lunged coal miner ever was...and asbestos what can I say......Need I go on ?...What reason would you or I have to believe that putting plastic and synthetic rubber or anything devised by man, into the soil that was so perfectly made by God could possibly do us any good, AT ALL....?

best,

[Marshall Bennett]

Until conclusive studies were done , I wouldn't want to be packing my lungs with the stuff . I suppose feeding your family comes first . Only a few of the best would be able to choose the track surface they wish to ride on , and still make a good living .

[BillW]

Until conclusive studies were done , I wouldn't want to be packing my lungs with the stuff .

I feel the same way about breathing the "natural" stuff, you know, dried horse crap etc. :eek:

[Tom]

I feel the same way about breathing the "natural" stuff, you know, dried horse crap etc. :eek:

Oh golly, that's not poly!!!:eek: :lol::lol:

[jonnielu]

I am interested in comments on the racing..........

I just might go fishing this weekend next year............ :lol:

It reminded me very much of Keeneland.

Maybe that is because Keeneland is another place where world class competitive racing goes on as an everyday occurrence.

I think that this weekends BC once again puts on display the fact that the narrow scope of understanding that is taught by past performance handicapping dogma, places the modern horseplayer in a position where he/she can not "see" what is happening on the track, as far as the results go, or why it is happening.

This industry will survive and grow, in accordance to management's understanding that competition is the force that makes the horse racing wheel turn.

And, that brings another challenge to management that must yet be met. That of teaching a new fan base how to play the modern game.

jdl

[Charlie D]

And, that brings another challenge to management that must yet be met. That of teaching a new fan base how to play the modern game.

jdl

What modern game, has horse racing changed Jonnie??

[Tom]

Do I gotta give back the money? :eek:

[Charlie D]

Do I gotta give back the money? :eek:

No, you should probably be teaching how

[Grits]

LottaKash, the only group as large as the FDA and Big Pharma is BCAL,LLC and at this point you make a good case. Do you practice?

URGENT! PLEASE CALL 1-800-555-1212 IF YOU OR YOUR FAMILY MEMBER HAVE BEEN INJURED IN AN AUTOMOBILE ACCIDENT AND YOU WERE NOT AT FAULT. IF YOU WERE EXPOSED TO ASBESTOS. IF YOU WERE IMPLANTED WITH A HEART DEFIBRILATOR/PACEMAKER MANUFACTURED BETWEEN 1976-1986. SOMEONE IS WAITING TO TAKE YOUR FREE CALL. WE WILL WORK TO GET YOU A SETTLEMENT. AND REMEMBER, IF YOU DON'T BENEFIT, THERE IS NO CHARGE FOR OUR SERVICS.

BIG CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS, LLC

(FEN FEN PLAINTIFFS, NEED NOT INQUIRE; YOU BEEN HAD ALREADY; THOUGH YOU STILL OWN PIECE OF A NICE RACE HORSE NAMED CURLIN)




How can I answer you on this?...Man has this grand concept that whatever God had created, that somehow he got it all wrong.....In this spirit, we have devised new ways to try and outdo what God has done and they are too numerous to mention in one breath.,but, I will try..... We have polluted our rivers, poisoned our air, ruined and depleted our agriculture, poisoned our beef and poultry with steroids and anti-biotics to the point that our little girls are growing breasts at the age of 5 and we are no longer able to fend off disease effectively because of those great antibiotics, the FDA and Big Pharma has seen to it that the side effects of modern made drugs are more harmful than the malady that was plaguing us to begin with, our vaccines are loaded with mercury (as a preservative Hah), We have a higher incidence of Cancer, Diabetes and Heart Disease on a scale that is unprecedented in man's history....Fibre glass and plastic fibres are known carcingogens, as bad as any black lunged coal miner ever was...and asbestos what can I say......Need I go on ?...What reason would you or I have to believe that putting plastic and synthetic rubber or anything devised by man, into the soil that was so perfectly made by God could possibly do us any good, AT ALL....?

best,

[witchdoctor]

Do I gotta give back the money? :eek:


NO, We have to redistribute the wealth. :lol: :lol:

[LottaKash]

LottaKash, the only group as large as the FDA and Big Pharma is BCAL,LLC and at this point you make a good case. Do you practice?

URGENT! PLEASE CALL 1-800-555-1212 IF YOU OR YOUR FAMILY MEMBER HAVE BEEN INJURED IN AN AUTOMOBILE ACCIDENT AND YOU WERE NOT AT FAULT. IF YOU WERE EXPOSED TO ASBESTOS. IF YOU WERE IMPLANTED WITH A HEART DEFIBRILATOR/PACEMAKER MANUFACTURED BETWEEN 1976-1986. SOMEONE IS WAITING TO TAKE YOUR FREE CALL. WE WILL WORK TO GET YOU A SETTLEMENT. AND REMEMBER, IF YOU DON'T BENEFIT, THERE IS NO CHARGE FOR OUR SERVICS.

BIG CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS, LLC

(FEN FEN PLAINTIFFS, NEED NOT INQUIRE; YOU BEEN HAD ALREADY; THOUGH YOU STILL OWN PIECE OF A NICE RACE HORSE NAMED CURLIN)

Grits, please forgive my befuddlement, but I am not 100% sure of the intent of your post........If you were teasin'me, that is cool...If you think I am a lawyer, think again please, I detest lawyers, especially the lawyers who make the laws, I suppose they are a necessary evil, and will leave it at that....

The rest of this post has to do with the quality of our lives....Since man has tampered with what God has made perfect, man is living on the brink of his own extinction. We have managed to try and re-create or re-invent everything that is of God's perfection.... For example, take creation, once the sole domain of God, and If one only were to examine the business of cloning and genetically modifying our precious food supply, one would be horrified to see what is possible by the hands of our human "Scientists", UnGodly to be sure....Frankenstein is real....

Since we are driving GOD further and further out of our lives and especially this nation and the world at large, it is quite evident that we are leaving a very "Nasty and Evil Legacy" for our children and their children's....I believe we must return to sanity, naturalness and simplicity in order for our species to survive itself, that is all...Polytracks are not simple, inexpensive, or natural, that is all..

For other folks, sorry, (not really) to be so audacious and so politically incorrect to mention GOD in the general forum of other fellow "Creations"...

best,

[Grits]

LottaKash, I was teasing you honey, just teasing.;) I don't know anyone that's fond of "class action" trollers.

[LottaKash]

LottaKash, I was teasing you honey, just teasing.;) I don't know anyone that's fond of "class action" trollers.

Hey Grits, don't let my wife catch you calling me Honey.....:D ..

best,

[jonnielu]

What modern game, has horse racing changed Jonnie??

In subtle ways, yes. In general it is more competitive. Which is good for racing, not so good for the handicapper with a narrow perspective.

jdl

[comet52]

My first BC... relatively new to horses after years at sports. So I'm not attached to dirt racing, like the idea that synth could save some horses lives. Some of my best wagering has been late night on Australian turf, though they race a synth surface now and again too.

Watching a couple thousand races this year, the hardest thing for me was watching horses break down, it's really painful. Especially one I had who broke down on the lead 50 yards from the wire... but that's another story. So again, like the idea of anything including reduced doping that is good to the animals themselves.

I think competition is a good thing and if more Euros come over due to surface, it's a good thing. With the astounding (to a newcomer) level of bitching here about the industry, it needs a few good things, doesn't it?

[LottaKash]

My first BC...
I think competition is a good thing and if more Euros come over due to surface, it's a good thing. With the astounding (to a newcomer) level of bitching here about the industry, it needs a few good things, doesn't it?


Lately with many players complaining of short and low quality fields, bringing in more Euro ponies may be a saving grace for our stagnating sport.....

best,

[W2G]

Have to say I loved it. Just got back today. SA was a great host track. They just need to add some more food and beverage options. Lines were a bit impossible for food of any kind on Saturday. Can't wait to head back next year nevertheless.

Picked just a handful of a BC winners: Maram, Forever Together, Muhannak, Goldikova; but crushing the FM Turf exotics with Forever Together on top made for my best overall BC results ever.

Although I didn't pick 'em too well to say the least on the ProRide, I think it played fair and the best horses ran well for the most part. We all knew Curlin to be a bit of a grinder without the European turn of foot. Sure, run that Classic on dirt and the Euro stretch acceleration would be muted somewhat, but whose to say the results would be markedly different. We'll just never know.

Have to admit though that visually, that synth stuff is shocking to see for the first time up close.

[GaryG]

Hey Grits, don't let my wife catch you calling me Honey.....:D ..

best,Grits.....you are welcome to cal me honey any time you want.....:jump: :jump:

[boomman]

Aren't these supposed to be the Breeder's Cup "WORLD" championships?
When did it become a series exclusive to the lower 48? :confused:
Besides the surface, one other thing was clear: the American horses can't compete with their global counterparts without steroids, especially on a "dead" surface that requires stamina and fitness.
Frankly, I was more surprised by the Euro performance on the green concrete, a very stiff turf course. It was clear Soldier of Fortune didn't relish it, but nearly every other invader skipped over it.

Right on the button Nacumi, and also why do you think there are so very few comments as to the safety of this year's cup? Horseplayers can say what they will about the synthetics (and everyone has an opinion on this), but IMHO there is absolutely no doubt these surfaces are safer for the horse, and that's a strong VOTE in their favor, especially given the world stage of The Breeder's Cup. I am also confident that our sport has a much better chance of selling itself to new racing fans if horses aren't constantly breaking down in these types of "showcase" events!

Boomer