Santa Anita: Proride vs Cushion

[cj]

With the cup upon us, I kept hearing how this new Proride was so much better than other synthetics and "87% dirt" and such. So, I did a simple test now that a decent amount of races have been run. I looked at distances that have run at least 15 non maiden races. Those are 6f, 6.5f, 8f, and 8.5f.

The following table shows the average pace call time of the WINNER, not the leader, at those distances:


6f 6.5f 8f 8.5f
Dirt 45.99 45.96 72.63 72.96
Cushion 46.44 46.70 73.61 74.27
Proride 46.75 46.82 74.16 74.42


Clearly, not only is Proride not close to dirt, it plays more like turf than cushion track does! Just something to keep in mind before sipping the synthetic Kool Aid.

[DanG]

Still trying to figure out why you (and SO many others) try and present that as a negative.

By your rational if they were running :43 ½’s you’re ‘Kool-Aid would somehow taste better.

Most players I know would agree that in So Cal many of the trainers who could scream to the lead and somehow get the picture through various enhancements have found you actually have to finish like a thoroughbred now. Many of the quarter horse backgrounds still haven’t learned how to train a horse to finish and hopefully never will because they still get over bet.

These are positives as we “attempt” to get some semblance of sanity back in our breed imo.

Having said all that; I have to qualify…I have no love affair with dirt in betting or in regards for the animal so I bring my own bias to the party as we all do.

[Tom]

I don't think it is meant as a negative at all....it a huge positive because so many disagree with that opinion. Knowing how the track plays is the positive.
Knowing dirt lines can be discounted and turf lines upgraded is a positive.
Many people betting it like it was dirt, that is a positive for for those that don't.

[Valuist]

I've always felt Cushion Track was closer to dirt than Polytrack, Tapeta or the moondust they're running on now. Not surprised at those results.

[cj]

Still trying to figure out why you (and SO many others) try and present that as a negative.

By your rational if they were running :43 ½’s you’re ‘Kool-Aid would somehow taste better.

Most players I know would agree that in So Cal many of the trainers who could scream to the lead and somehow get the picture through various enhancements have found you actually have to finish like a thoroughbred now. Many of the quarter horse backgrounds still haven’t learned how to train a horse to finish and hopefully never will because they still get over bet.

These are positives as we “attempt” to get some semblance of sanity back in our breed imo.

Having said all that; I have to qualify…I have no love affair with dirt in betting or in regards for the animal so I bring my own bias to the party as we all do.

How am I presenting it as a negative? I am presenting it for people who bet their money. I have read all over the internet from bettors, horsemen, and track management how much like dirt Proride is. It is simply not true. I could not care less what surface we race on. I just don't like being treated like an idiot by those who are benefiting financially from these installations.

My chart is showing the average pace calls in relation to final time. I am sorry if I didn't make that clear. They can run as fast or faster raw times on synthetics as they do on dirt, so that 43 1/2 thing doesn't really apply to what I was trying to get across. All I am trying to do is objectively present what is happening on synthetics.

Really, this is my only gripe with synthetics. If the people in charge would stop pretending and just admit they are a 3rd surface, you'd hear a lot less griping from me. We are running the dirt mile on something that is NOTHING like dirt. We are deciding championships on something that is not dirt. How is that going to draw fans to the game? You are going to have a lot less horses with exceptional records if half the big races are run on dirt and half on synthetics.

Now, we are going to have champions decided by where the Breeder's Cup decides to hold the races each year.

[DanG]

I don't think it is meant as a negative at all....it a huge positive because so many disagree with that opinion. Knowing how the track plays is the positive.
Knowing dirt lines can be discounted and turf lines upgraded is a positive.
Many people betting it like it was dirt, that is a positive for for those that don't.
Your right Tom; :blush:

I’m clearly defensive on the whole surface discussion. So many of this type of thread start the cheerleading for dirt and lambaste everything and everyone who doesn’t gargle from the Hudson that I almost feel obligated to lend a dissenting voice.

Overreaction…my apologizes CJ…

Back to work!!!

[Tom]

What I find funny is that Dirt Mile, in it's first three years ( including 2009) will never have been run as a dirt mile. Once, as a 1m70 and twice on pro-ride. Duh? Dave's not here! :lol:

[Onion Monster]

As Dan alluded to in another post, I think the bigger surface issue will be the turf.

The cheap speed held on nicely in Wednesday's two turf routes (three double digit early-runners finished in the money in those races). Looking at CJs pro-ride data, the turf at Santa Anita may play more like dirt than the synthetic stuff.

[cj]

What I find funny is that Dirt Mile, in it's first three years ( including 2009) will never have been run as a dirt mile. Once, as a 1m70 and twice on pro-ride. Duh? Dave's not here! :lol:

Not to mention the ridiculous "Turf Sprint". It is run at a distance and configuration that true turf sprinters never run. 5f, 5.5f maybe, but 6.5f and making one and a half turns while crossing over rubber (or is it still dirt?)?

The Marathon? Are we seriously going to list the winner of this race alongside other BC Champions? I've seen better allowance races on the inner in January.

[DanG]

I disagree here on the unique configurations of the turf sprint and / or mile.

I wish all tracks had unique aspects like Fenway and Wrigley etc…I can’t stand the cookie cutter assembly line 1 mile dirt tracks just like the baseball stadiums built in the 70’s were BORING! :bang:

This turf sprint will be one of the most exciting BC races to date…because of its uniqueness…not in spite of it.

The Marathon is a reflection of breeding horses like Funny Cars instead of thoroughbreds. #4 Sixties Icon (GB) will gallop our runners into the ground imo.

[cj]

I disagree here on the unique configurations of the turf sprint and / or mile.

I wish all tracks had unique aspects like Fenway and Wrigley etc…I can’t stand the cookie cutter assembly line 1 mile dirt tracks just like the baseball stadiums built in the 70’s were BORING! :bang:

This turf sprint will be one of the most exciting BC races to date…because of its uniqueness…not in spite of it.

The Marathon is a reflection of breeding horses like Funny Cars instead of thoroughbreds. #4 Sixties Icon (GB) will gallop our runners into the ground imo.

I have no problem with a course being unique. I actually like it as well. But this is supposed to crown the top turf sprinter, right? I don't think that goal is going to be accomplished. It would be like determining the World Series on a basketball court.

The mile? I think the biggest issue is that it isn't dirt. The configuration is the same most other dirt tracks. Personally, I prefer one turn miles as I think they are fairer tests.

I too will be shocked if Sixties Icon loses.

[Tom Barrister]

The people who say that Proride is closer to dirt than the other synthetics are probably referring to something besides time.

[cj]

The time is being dictated by the jockeys for a reason.

[rrbauer]

Not to mention the ridiculous "Turf Sprint". It is run at a distance and configuration that true turf sprinters never run. 5f, 5.5f maybe, but 6.5f and making one and a half turns while crossing over rubber (or is it still dirt?)?



You left out the down-the-hill part! :lol:

[DeanT]

Thanks for the time analysis CJ.

I do not care what horses race on actually. I am curious by nature. Hell, I just bought a telescope for something to do at the cottage. I have no idea what's out there, so it is time to find out. I love the puzzle that these surfaces present us with and I love trying to figure them out.

I guess the only drawback for me is that some horses take to it and some do not. We sometimes find out after the race and that does me no good. I am really good at picking winners after the race though.

For two days a year I am not going to complain. It starts today. I'll be back complaining on Sunday :)

Anyhow, enjoy the day. Good luck to everyone.

[Tom]

You left out the down-the-hill part! :lol:

That is the whole BC concept.....down hill.

[bobphilo]

The time is being dictated by the jockeys for a reason.

The way races are run often depends on the jockeys early (and perhaps premature) perceptions from a small number of races and then become self-fulfilling prophacies.

Bob

[cj]

The way races are run often depends on the jockeys early (and perhaps premature) perceptions from a small number of races and then become self-fulfilling prophacies.

Bob

That is true, but it is obvious watching the races that going to the front at anything but a canter in routes spells defeat.

[Greyfox]

That Pro Ride sure absorbs the heat. 146 F reported during BC telecast.

[Tom]

So now we have to factor in track temp, too? :eek:

Tack Fast, 140 F

[Tom]

Some interesting results, and a lot of food for thought after today.
This may well change the BC forever.....Europeans and turf horses absolutely belong now.

And, a great testimony to CJ's conversion of Time Form numbers to the Beyer (CJ) scale. The top two in the Classic rated above Curlin, and at great odds.
The first, 4 rulz horse won at a price......Outstanding performance. :ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:


Synthetics are going to change the game. It looks like a fair surface that all horses should be able to run over.
I'm changing my opinion - just able to win on dirt ain't gonna cut it anymore.
We need a handicap triple in the late summer/fall - dirt/turf/synth.

[ezpace]

I want to see Los A or Ruiodoso quarter horses on

pro-ride ... sign up another circus Stronach. WORLD RECORDS FOR SURE

2 breakdowns at Saratoga. 5 at Delmar.

dirt to one of 4 different sYnthetics ..back to dirt

synthetic to dirt to a different type of stnthetic

from the training farm dirt to synthetic to another type of synthetic

from a synthetic farm track(there are some) to dirt to synthetic

THERE'S ALL YOUR BREAKDOWNS..

AVG T BRED,,,,,,,,,1000LBS... ANKLES ,kNEES THE SIZE OF YOURS ((OR SMALLER)) GOING 40MPH

FIGURE OUT THOSE JOINTS CHANCE OF SURVIVING WHEN GOOFS ,,KEEP

SWITCHING SURFACES

[matthewsiv]

CJ

You are the man.