Absolute joke

[Track Phantom]

Mike Chambers is suspended (ironic that a guy winning 40% would be suspended). So, a gal by the name of Carol Hubbird is training his horses. First 10 starters for her EVER and she has 6 wins and 9 of the 10 either first or second. I'm not kidding when I say training is so easy...."a caveman can do it"

[lsosa54]

Similar to when Jeff Mullins got suspended for awhile and his assistant filled in for him.

[Track Phantom]

Similar to when Jeff Mullins got suspended for awhile and his assistant filled in for him.

It's similar to every cheating trainer that gets suspended. The game has lost all credibility.

[PaceAdvantage]

So, what you're saying is, that if the venerable Jack van Berg or Allen Jerkens were to be suspended, and they give the horses to you to train "at least in name," that you wouldn't be able to win with the first number of horses to go to post, seeing as basically they've been trained up to the race by the masters?

I think you're reaching a bit in this case. It's easy for an assistant to take over if the master has done all of the hard work.

[proximity]

So, what you're saying is,.....

what valento is saying is that the horses shouldn't even be racing BECAUSE THE WHOLE BARN SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN.

certainly not fair to any of those honest owners who have horses with the trainer, but hey, if you sleep with dogs, you're gonna get fleas........

[PaceAdvantage]

what valento is saying is that the horses shouldn't even be racing BECAUSE THE WHOLE BARN SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN.

certainly not fair to any of those honest owners who have horses with the trainer, but hey, if you sleep with dogs, you're gonna get fleas........That's not at all what he's saying. What he's really saying is that these assistants are able to pick up where the boss left off because the boss is cheating.

That's what he's saying.

And that's why I replied as I did.

[slewis]

To set the record straight.. when a trainer gets supended, EVERYTHING stays the same. The grooms, the help.. it's business as usual.

I've always thought this was a serious lack of deterrent, after all, the trainer will still bill his clients for training and, should he win, will collect the percentage he has due, be it from his appointed assistant, or whoever.
When Assmussen was suspended for an extended period, the horses were transfered to Scott Blasi, his assistant.
It was business as usual.
My suggestion is this:

If your trainer gets a suspension, you are given 2 choices by the stewards..
1) Transfer your horses to the care of another licenensed trainer. That trainer can never have worked for your trainer and they must move into his barn and stay with him (or another) for 9 months total before going back to the suspended trainer.
2) You can remain with your suspended trainer but your horses cannot race for twice the period of the trainers suspension starting on the date of his suspension.

If you dont deter trainers from getting even small positives, nothing is going to change.

[proximity]

If your trainer gets a suspension, you are given 2 choices by the stewards..
1) Transfer your horses to the care of another licenensed trainer. That trainer can never have worked for your trainer and they must move into his barn and stay with him (or another) for 9 months total before going back to the suspended trainer.
.

good post slewis, but i disagree with option #1 because there are OWNERS out there who are winning at tremendous percentages and how much do you think the listed trainer has to do with it when the owner has runners with a half dozen "trainers" who are all winning at 30%+??? so in that case, moving the horse to the barn of another licensed "trainer" who has never worked for your trainer...... not much of a deterrent.

[cj]

The same thing is going on with Stephanie Beattie and her boyfriend...errr...assistant.

[Imriledup]

To set the record straight.. when a trainer gets supended, EVERYTHING stays the same. The grooms, the help.. it's business as usual.

I've always thought this was a serious lack of deterrent, after all, the trainer will still bill his clients for training and, should he win, will collect the percentage he has due, be it from his appointed assistant, or whoever.
When Assmussen was suspended for an extended period, the horses were transfered to Scott Blasi, his assistant.
It was business as usual.
My suggestion is this:

If your trainer gets a suspension, you are given 2 choices by the stewards..
1) Transfer your horses to the care of another licenensed trainer. That trainer can never have worked for your trainer and they must move into his barn and stay with him (or another) for 9 months total before going back to the suspended trainer.
2) You can remain with your suspended trainer but your horses cannot race for twice the period of the trainers suspension starting on the date of his suspension.

If you dont deter trainers from getting even small positives, nothing is going to change.

I agree, none of this giving horses to the assistant stuff, that's not even a suspension, the guy just trains the horses from the golf course, its actually good because the guy can get a 'vacation' that he normally wouldn't otherwise be able to take. Can you take 6 months off and tell your clients, "im going to go lay on the beach and i'll be back in 6 months" No, you can't do that.......unless you get suspended. I agree that all horses need to be transferred to someone completely unaffiliated with the suspended trainer and if the owner wants to transfer the horses BACK to the original guy when he's back, that's his choice.

[proximity]

I agree that all horses need to be transferred to someone completely unaffiliated with the suspended trainer and if the owner wants to transfer the horses BACK to the original guy when he's back, that's his choice.

your words "completely unaffiliated" need to be strictly defined here so all loopholes are eliminated.

perhaps stuff like the owner must have never had horses with the new trainer and the new trainer must have raced a certain minimum number of starters in the past calendar year (ensuring that the new trainer is actually a known commodity, not some kid pulled off the street...). this is a solvable problem.

[Imriledup]

your words "completely unaffiliated" need to be strictly defined here so all loopholes are eliminated.

perhaps stuff like the owner must have never had horses with the new trainer and the new trainer must have raced a certain minimum number of starters in the past calendar year (ensuring that the new trainer is actually a known commodity, not some kid pulled off the street...). this is a solvable problem.

That's up to the racing comission to decide. Good point about the number of starters, it can't be a guy who got his license out of a cracker jack box 2 weeks earlier. There could be 2 trainers who make a pact with each other that if either guy gets a suspension, the other guy will take his horses and give them back when the suspension ends which means the racing board has to find a way to not let that happen.

Also, they need to find a way to punish the owners who employ dishonest trainers. How they are going to do that is up to them.

I was thinking the other day about the racing industry and how its almost 'exempt' from real life laws. If a hockey player smashes another player in the head with a stick, he can have assault charges brought against him and end up in a real court of law to defend himself. In racing, if a trainer has a horse come up positive and loses purse money and is disqualified from the betting, any bettor who saved his ticket on the 2nd place horse needs to be able to file a lawsuit in court against the trainer for lost income and that bettor is supposed to be able to win 100% of the time and someone needs to pay him his lost income. None of this once the race is official stuff, that's a joke.

Also, if a rider doesn't ride all the way to the wire, he needs to also be brought up on charges for race fixing. None of this slap on the wrist and tell him not to do it agains stuff, throw the book at him. I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that if a jock knew he'd end up in court on race fixing charges he or she won't be misjudging the finish line anytime soon.

[proximity]

I'm not kidding when I say training is so easy...."a caveman can do it"

actually about 2 months ago on this forum there was a thread about tdn busting a 19 year old (!!) "trainer" who had migrated up from mnr.......

[Spectacular Sid]

Where was Chambers suspended this time? DIdn't he just finish up a suspension from Washington in September?

[slewis]

good post slewis, but i disagree with option #1 because there are OWNERS out there who are winning at tremendous percentages and how much do you think the listed trainer has to do with it when the owner has runners with a half dozen "trainers" who are all winning at 30%+??? so in that case, moving the horse to the barn of another licensed "trainer" who has never worked for your trainer...... not much of a deterrent.

Prox,

It sounds as if you think or know that an owner (owners) might have something to do with the performance of their horses. I dont know if or to what degree your involved in this business, but take this from someone who is fortunate enough to be involved in all aspects of it in NY and FLA.
It is VERY unlikely, VERY VERY unlikely, that an owner would, himself, be allowed to administer ANYTHING to a horse that's performance enhancing on a major or even middle market racetrack. Nothing in this world is impossible, but very unlikely.
I would like others on the site here who own, etc, to post on my comments... I'm certain they would all concur.

[Jeff P]

When a drug positive comes back from the lab call the trainer, owner, and VET in for a hearing. Review the lab results and let everyone involved present their side. Then reach a decision and explain why action has to be taken or why no action is taken. Hand out suspensions, fines and redistribute purse money when warranted.

But make the penalty severe enough that no owner wants to leave a horse in the care of a trainer who cheats.

Example:

First drug positive for a trainer = 90 day suspension and redistribution of purse money. ALL HORSES in trainer's barn are likewise suspended (not allowed to race) for 90 days. VET is not allowed to administer meds to thoroughbreds registered to race during the suspension.

Second drug positive for a trainer = 6 month suspension and redistribution of purse money. ALL HORSES in trainer's barn are likewise suspended (not allowed to race) for six months. VET is not allowed to administer meds to thoroughbreds registered to race during the suspension.


Third drug positive for a trainer = Trainer barred from racing for life. ALL HORSES in trainer's barn are suspended (not allowed to race) for one year. VET is banned from thoroughbred racing for life.

Trainer caught calling the shots while serving a suspension is the same as a third drug positive.

Make the penalty severe enough and here's what happens:

Owners will get involved and pull their horses from trainers (and vets) who cheat.

Enforce these changes and the perception of the game from potential new fans changes from one of "racing is crooked" to "racing is actually well regulated."

My 2.3 cents...


-jp

.

[takeout]

One of my pet peeves about the farce that’s called a “suspension” is that it screws up the trainer stats bigtime.

Here's a few suggestions for possible solutions that I’m sure will be shot full of holes immediately after being posted, not to mention being a complete fairy tale compared to anything that might actually happen in this largely dysfunctional industry. :)

1. Shut the whole barn down and ALL of the owners’ horses. None of that trainer’s horses run anywhere and none of his owners’ horses run anywhere, INCLUDING the ones with other trainers. If the owner or owners don’t like it they can change trainers AFTER the suspension is over. (So much for big owners using handfuls of trainers.)

2. There are no excuses for some drugs, other than being framed or set up. If caught red handed you’re out for life. No ifs ands or buts. One strike, you’re gone. That should doubly apply to vets.

3. If nothing is ever going to be done about these farcical suspensions (how’s THAT for a good bet!) at least leave the suspended trainer’s name in the pps so it quits screwing up the trainer stats! :bang:

[matthewsiv]

Well said

I agree with you

[o_crunk]

The same thing is going on with Stephanie Beattie and her boyfriend...errr...assistant.

I had picked up a PM edition of the DRF last week to play a couple of MED races and I looked through the form for MNR or Charlestown...can't remember, but this Stephanie Beattie was winning at a 47% clip. Wasn't any small sample either - something like 170 races. That's completely ridiculous - borderline outright robbery. How can any racing exec look at those results with a straight face?

They can't be all well spotted, hay, oates and water horses that win at that clip, can they? How can a group of cheap claimers win half the races they've been entered in on a level playing field?

[cj]

Her boyfriend is apparently just as good a horseman as she is.

[proximity]

Prox,

It sounds as if you think or know that an owner (owners) might have something to do with the performance of their horses. I dont know if or to what degree your involved in this business, but take this from someone who is fortunate enough to be involved in all aspects of it in NY and FLA.
It is VERY unlikely, VERY VERY unlikely, that an owner would, himself, be allowed to administer ANYTHING to a horse that's performance enhancing on a major or even middle market racetrack. Nothing in this world is impossible, but very unlikely.
I would like others on the site here who own, etc, to post on my comments... I'm certain they would all concur.

slew, my involvement in racing is strictly limited to gambling. i enjoy your posts and have the greatest respect for your support of all the different aspects of the sport.

i'm not trying to say that there are legions of nefarious owners administering performance enhancing drugs directly to horses. i am trying to say that (outside of ny and fla) there are cases where the trainer is nothing more than a front. the 19 yr old at mnr/tdn is an example of this..... prox

[takeout]

Her boyfriend is apparently just as good a horseman as she is.

Yep. I think sometimes his percentage is higher than hers but they switch their names back and forth a lot.

Also he probably loses the occasional winner as he was (is?) sometimes listed with the wrong middle initial and those wins probably go to the other fictional guy in the stats.

[fmhealth]

As we all realize, you're right on target Valento!! Unfortunately, the jokes on US!!! Would you patronize any business that you knew in your "heart of hearts" was cheating you? Of course not. Yet we players continue to support the sport that we grew up with & are passionate about.

Occasionally they'll be a stunning clear clarion call for some type of mass collaborative action on our part. This usually passes or disintegrates over a brief period of time. Too fragmented to have any material impact.

My personal solution, dramatically reduce my involvement with horse racing. To the extent that my 153 trips to the track last year will be downsized to about 40 outings this year. Will they miss me, not likely. But, if all of us that have witnessed the continual erosion of racing just cut back say 10-20% of our betting. They will have to pay attention. Less revenue will resonate throughout the industry.

Simply one man's unequivocal stand. If any event, stay well

FMH

[Track Phantom]

As we all realize, you're right on target Valento!! Unfortunately, the jokes on US!!! Would you patronize any business that you knew in your "heart of hearts" was cheating you? Of course not. Yet we players continue to support the sport that we grew up with & are passionate about.

Occasionally they'll be a stunning clear clarion call for some type of mass collaborative action on our part. This usually passes or disintegrates over a brief period of time. Too fragmented to have any material impact.

My personal solution, dramatically reduce my involvement with horse racing. To the extent that my 153 trips to the track last year will be downsized to about 40 outings this year. Will they miss me, not likely. But, if all of us that have witnessed the continual erosion of racing just cut back say 10-20% of our betting. They will have to pay attention. Less revenue will resonate throughout the industry.

Simply one man's unequivocal stand. If any event, stay well

FMH

Great points on all fronts. However, if there was a 20% dip in handle or revenue, these bozos who manage the industry would equate it to the economy, the weather, the bad publicity from PETA, on and on. They have no clue that their illegitimate product keeps many potential players away and impacts the amount long time players are willing to invest.

[proximity]

*jack van berg and allen jerkens were mentioned in this thread. but this thread isn't about them. this is a thread about connections that win more than twice as much as those two legends win.... COMBINED!!

*nyra and fla racing was mentioned, but leading trainer todd pletcher wins at only 19% (pitiful). and jeff mullins is around 20% in california. the again suspended mr chambers is winning at 2x this percentage!!

* mr chambers could go 3 for his next 155 and his record would still be better than j larry jones!!

* the stephanie beattie suspension? it's over now. she's served her "time." but let me get this straight. there is a suspension, the horses move under the name of her boyfriend and keep racing...... and people are ok with this??

[Track Phantom]

*jack van berg and allen jerkens were mentioned in this thread. but this thread isn't about them. this is a thread about connections that win more than twice as much as those two legends win.... COMBINED!!

*nyra and fla racing was mentioned, but leading trainer todd pletcher wins at only 19% (pitiful). and jeff mullins is around 20% in california. the again suspended mr chambers is winning at 2x this percentage!!

* mr chambers could go 3 for his next 155 and his record would still be better than j larry jones!!

* the stephanie beattie suspension? it's over now. she's served her "time." but let me get this straight. there is a suspension, the horses move under the name of her boyfriend and keep racing...... and people are ok with this??

The game is being run by cockroaches like the Beatties

[phatbastard]

i submit the names...Robert Bone....Robert Cole....Richard Englander


it seems whomever they get to train...winning happens

and trainers are in the who's who of trainers named here

[Charlie D]

These type of threads are depressing


Great shame such a Great Game and it's combatants are treated this way by people who are supposed to be "horsemen"

[proximity]

The game is being run by cockroaches like the Beatties

valento, there is no need to resort to names. let your excellent posts here and the great forum you created for cby racing do the talking for you.

i shouldn't have even brought up the beattie situation. what if mr chambers and carol hubbird were dating? the facts are facts. suspensions are being issued, but it is business as usual as slewis described it earlier in the thread.

[proximity]

whomever they get to train...winning happens



phatbastard, i've eliminated the words "it seems" from your post. hope you don't mind!!

[Charlie D]

if you can go bet on Euro, Aussie, Kong Kong racing or bet other sports, play poker


these people do not deserve our support

[slewis]

valento, there is no need to resort to names. let your excellent posts here and the great forum you created for cby racing do the talking for you.

i shouldn't have even brought up the beattie situation. what if mr chambers and carol hubbird were dating? the facts are facts. suspensions are being issued, but it is business as usual as slewis described it earlier in the thread.

Prox,

Both you and Vaento have brought up great points on this thread..

Let me remind everyone of the following:

Racetracks dont and never did care about gamblers and especially the need to be fair to them.
They are competing for, not only handle, but more importantly, HORSES to fill cards with.
I am convinced, without knowing for certain, of the following:
1) Racetrack management at EVERY track, sweep certain positives under the rug and probably just issue stern warnings to certain "favored" trainers.
2) Racetrack management needs horses to compete. Look at the trainers/ standings. Ever notice there are guys who are 33% trainers at say Del Park, yet, they get only claimers and rarely race horses in NY where the purses are higher? (why?... cause they can "cheat" there, they know the drug rules and probably have figured how to stretch them to the max).
3) The racing industry, especially NYRA, has ALWAYS fought having a govt-state testing/fining/oversight... so they can continue to police their own game.. and hush certain positives up, while at the same time trying to crucify guys they dont like.. ( like Rick Dutrow)).

Now that we are in the most serious economic situation since, well, maybe ever.. and the handles WILL decline, lets see how these "racing gurus" get through this.
Go ask Steve Wynn in Las Vegas what profession he's in, and I'll bet he doesn't say he's in the "Hotel industry". He'll tell you he's in the GAMBLING business.

Now, go ask Charlie Haywood or Steven Duncker at NYRA what business they are in.... GUARANTEE they will say "thoroughbred racing industry".

This is the mind-set of the jerk offs that run this game.
Case closed.

[proximity]

Racetracks dont and never did care about gamblers and especially the need to be fair to them.


and this seems to be especially true for racetracks with slot machines. at least at nyra someone is looking at the floor and holding the broom!!

[takeout]

and this seems to be especially true for racetracks with slot machines.
So true. Slots make it worse than ever. Now they could care less (if that’s possible).

[proximity]

How can any racing exec look at those results with a straight face?


we are making the assumption here that the track(s) in question actually have any racing execs!!:)