Filly Friday Boycott [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Indulto

10-14-2008, 10:54 PM

As some of you may be aware, there is a movement to boycott Filly Friday including an on-line petition being circulated at http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/2008bc/ (http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/2008bc/)

Some of us planning to participate in this protest of the changes to BC format and policy by BC organizers -- and their refusal to acknowledge unprecedented criticism by fans and media alike -- believe this is also an opportunity to send a message to industry leadership (many whom are involved with the BC) that it’s time for them to start listening to their customers.

As the last part is/was a primary goal of HANA’s -- and now that they are formally organized and have expressed a desire to entertain “collective action” -- perhaps they might be willing to get behind this movement over the next 10 days via their blog and this board.

I’m polling PA members to find out a) to what degree they might participate, and b) if not, whether HANA’s involvement might make a difference.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=589508#post589508 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=589508#post589508)
… There appears to be a lot of expectations being made of HANA and in due time we fervently hope the organization will be to be able to live up to those expectations. …

… Now HANA is finally getting to the point when we can move forward from being absorbed with taking care of those basic organizational issues to gaining greater visibility and both increasing the membership base and getting them more involved as well as getting a good gauge on the willingness of those members to be involved and to what extent. That last part is key because any sort of declaration of collective action by HANA (which is what I know a lot of people are looking for) requires a solid grasp of who your membership base is and knowing they will follow through. We are not yet there but we are getting there. …HANA would not be going out on a limb here. Horseplayer-supportive journalists Paul Moran, John Pricci, and Ray Paulick have all published commentary of mine dealing with this boycott. I believe HANA should seize the moment. At the very least, it would make HANA more visible to other players and the media.

DJofSD

10-15-2008, 01:02 AM

While I support the idea of a boycott and would hope that HANA would be a part of that movement, I think it is too early to expect HANA to get involved.

As far as the Friday boycott, I guess I'll be a part by default. I have no interest and no plans to get involved.

samyn on the green

10-15-2008, 01:57 AM

DrunkenHorseplayer

10-15-2008, 02:11 AM

If they ran over a frozen lake, which they do in Sweden, I wouldn't boycott anything. Now if they stopped selling liquor and I couldn't sneak any in then maybe.

Indulto

10-15-2008, 02:29 AM

We have dug tunnels through bedrock to provide these broads with fresh water, we have constructed shopping malls to keep them amused and invented every gadget under the sun to free them of housework. If we want to run the filly races on Friday these broads are going to have to deal with it.The repositioning of the graded filly stakes takes them out of the Ultra Pick Six. Nothing sexy about that regardless of one's gender.

ezrabrooks

10-15-2008, 07:39 AM

And what does this have to do with lowering take out and full access? Sounds like a certain party just likes to read their own press.

Ez

miesque

10-15-2008, 09:32 AM

rrbauer

10-15-2008, 09:44 AM

Why limit the "boycott" to Friday? This whole BC thing serves to feed a few owners' egos (and bank accounts), gives the NTRA something to puff about while raping ordinary horseplayers with exorbitant access charges, after "reserving" the really good accomodations for "connections".

Turn on your TV. Turn down the sound. Turn off your PC & modem. Pop some popcorn. Open a cold one. And, enjoy seeing some really good horses in high-def for two days. Then when it's over you will have money left for those 5-horse fields at Podunk Downs (ADW's willing).

cnollfan

10-15-2008, 11:13 AM

I think Filly Friday is a very silly idea, but I like to bet on horse races so it won't affect my plans.

BombsAway Bob

10-15-2008, 11:46 AM

All this "Boycott" talk reminds me of "Do The Right Thing"
when 'Buggin Out' proposes A Boycott of SAL'S PIZZA:
Description:On the hottest day of the year on a street in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn, everyone's hate and bigotry smolders and builds until it explodes into violence.
Video URL:http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3282174233/ (http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3282174233/)
Related Titles:Do the Right Thing (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097216/)
Featuring:Ossie Davis (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0001115/), Danny Aiello (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0000732/), Giancarlo Esposito (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0002064/), Spike Lee (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0000490/), Ruby Dee (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0002039/), Bill Nunn (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0638056/), John Turturro (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0001806/), Paul Benjamin (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0071345/), Rosie Perez (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0001609/), Robin Harris (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0365264/), Frankie Faison (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0265670/), Samuel L. Jackson (http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/DETAILS_REL_NAME/name/nm0000168/)

Buggin' Out (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002064/): Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta a$$.
Sal (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000732/): You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your a$$, you've got a boycott.

Sal (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000732/): Hey. The only a$$-kicking that's gonna be done around here is gonna be done by me.
_________
Sweet Dick Willie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0365264/): (to 'Buggin Out')You wanna boycott someone? You ought to start with the goddamn barber that f***ed up your head.

BUD

10-15-2008, 12:12 PM

Together we stand divided we fall..

That said this newbie has no freekin idea of what we are talking about.........If someone could bring me up to speed it would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Steve 'StatMan'

10-15-2008, 01:06 PM

The BC for about the 15+ years were 7 races, all on the same day, a Saturday. The day often started with a couple nice stakes as well. An 8th race, a BC Filly & Mare turf was added I think in the early 2000's.

Last year was the first year the BC added several new races, filling types of races that some felt were missing for certain divisions, such as a Dirt Mile, when the BC Mile is on the turf, a Dirt Sprint just for Fillies & Mares, etc. There were, IIRC, 5 extra races added last year, and the BC decided to have all of those on Friday, and call it BC Friday, and make the BC a 2-day event, Sat & Sun.

Now this year, the BC had decided to put all the BC Races for Fillies & Mares on Friday, and make it a special day for BC Females. This changes a lot of traditions, including the BC Pick 6, which was always held on the Saturday card. Usually the BC Distaff (now the Ladies Classic) would be a part of it. I think for the BC Pick 6, they left the Juvenile Fillies out of it when there were 7 races, or maybe the Distaff, if it looked to chalky. They once had a BC Pick 7, and all BC races were a part of it, but that was even more difficult to hit, and they really wanted to have people hit the big payoff to get the publicity, so they made it a bit easier with a Pick 6.

Some didn't like the new BC races last year. Many are upset that some of those new races will be moved to the Saturday card - some even more upset that those new races will be a part of the BC Pick 6. Some are upset that the traditional 3 female races of the regular 8 are moving to Friday.

Lots of changes and additions. Is the day(s) now too diluted, is it just right, have they added enough races to make everyone happy? Can everyone ever be totally happy, after all, this is horse racing, with horsemen, breeder's, owners, trainers, jockeys, and of course the bettors, and all these groups have their own needs and complaints.

Marshall Bennett

10-15-2008, 01:32 PM

The idea of racing over a synthetic surface doesn't excite me . The BC in general does though . I've wagered very little in the past few years , so the order in which the races run , or the days they run on , doesn't bother me the least . I'll enjoy , hope all of you do as well . :)

Steve 'StatMan'

10-15-2008, 01:44 PM

Oh yeah! I forgot about to mention to Bud about the new synthetic surface at Santa Anita, where the 2008 & 2009 BC's will be held. Adds a extra issue to the mix. Some don't like artificial tracks, some are undecided, some like them. Makes handicapping this event even more complicated. Plus this new surface is different than that flawed one from the spring meet and earlier. The product has been used in Austrailia IIFC, it is called Pro Ride. But now there are at least 4 types of synthetic tracks in use in the USA, and there are even some composition variations within the same manufacturer, due to diffferent locations needs/specifications (cold weather, wet weather, heat, etc.)

Plus there is the irony of the BC Dirt Mile not being contested on dirt, etc.

njcurveball

10-15-2008, 01:49 PM

Together we stand divided we fall..

.

Seems like the smartest thing to with this poll is delete it. If I were running a track and saw 10% of a group of a few hundred are going to boycott a day with a handle over 10 million, I would laugh my head off.

If you want to be serious about this stuff, you will need to have members register somewhere they can have their handle tracked and if you can POSITIVELY impact a track they might decide to listen.

Negative stuff like this on Racings biggest weekend seems more for some bloggers self pleasure and the chance they will see their name in print somewhere.

BUD

10-15-2008, 01:49 PM

Steve...Thank you for taking the time to answer me...Much appreciated friend.Thanks

CryingForTheHorses

10-15-2008, 03:44 PM

I am very surprised that PA is letting his posters write all this crap :confused:

JohnGalt1

10-15-2008, 04:19 PM

BUD

10-15-2008, 04:25 PM

See all the talk of Cops being dumb!!:bang:

OK Now someone please explain to me why this is called crap. ? Is what Steve wrote BS? Sure did not sound nor look like BS.
I had every intention of taking a swing at the BC.....But if its for good reason I // We don't// I won't.....

Trust me I totally understand about how this game is broke....I had to jump every road block the industry put in my way.....Still, if it was not for a couple good guys helping me out I would have cashed out and went to the Card Room....

So:bang: If someone can please explain further it would be much appreciated.

joanied

10-15-2008, 06:58 PM

For the record - I voted for the last option in the poll, however I would have preferred the following poll answer:

I think Filly Friday is a dumbass idea by the Breeders Cup but I am still attending the races and betting the races on both days at the same intensity as I would if those changes had not been made.

But then again I am not exactly a feminist. Personally I think there are bigger issues that need to be addressed. The rearranging of races into this marketing gimmick (which is what it is) called "Filly Friday" reflects poorly on the powers that be at Breeders Cup but its really not impacting the game per se. The Breeders Cup will come and go and all the real problematic systemic issues like ADW restrictions, high takeout, poor customer service, etc... will remain the same.

That's just about my take on it also.
Since I've worked all my life doing jobs most women would not do...I am not a feminist either...but I hate this FILLY Friday, and having the card split via sexes...
it's also pretty damned dumb because there is always the possibility that a filly/mare would be entered in one of the colts/gelding races...example..what if they decided to run Zenyatta in the Classic...now what does THAT do to this ridiculous male/female format:bang:

I'm not happy with the two day format. I am not happy with dividing it into a male and female day. I am not happy about Pro Ride (although at least it's better than that other synthetic stuff, being mostly dirt...guess the Dirt Mile can be re named the '87% Dirt Mile":D and I am not happy that SA has the BC 2 years in a row....BUT...I can't wait:jump: to watch the best of the best compete...as mentioned by someone, from my home, in hi-def TV, crack open a cold one, a bowl of popcorn and be happy as a clam (hey...BUD...like your user name & avatar...we grow malt balrely for BUD;) )...
so I guess I won't be boycotting anything...but do support any effort that can possibly get some changes made for next year.

Indulto

10-15-2008, 07:07 PM

Wow, 66 votes already! 43 unsupportive, 14 supportive, and 9 potentially supportive if HANA were also. I wonder what the last category count and % was when HANA’s CFO voted unsupportive? 14% shows a lot people look to HANA for leadership.

These early returns remind me of the response to my poll on proposed reform priorities. There the option for IRS withholding reform initially jumped to a commanding lead. I interpret this as the “self-interest” vote which is not surprising in a community of serious players.

Thanks, Statman, for articulating the issues. I would only add the unprecedented two-year award to Santa Anita denying the opportunity to other geographic areas and creating successive opportunities for synthetic specialists; and the impact of a two-day card on venues outside Kentucky which could evolve into the event’s being dominated by that state.

After reading The Grassroots Speaks (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2008/10/grassroots-speaks.html) It’s hard for me to assume that miesque’s response represented that of HANA generally:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=590263#post590263 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=590263#post590263)
…But then again I am not exactly a feminist. Personally I think there are bigger issues that need to be addressed. The rearranging of races into this marketing gimmick (which is what it is) called "Filly Friday" reflects poorly on the powers that be at Breeders Cup but its really not impacting the game per se. The Breeders Cup will come and go and all the real problematic systemic issues like ADW restrictions, high takeout, poor customer service, etc... will remain the same.Dismissing the boycott as a “feminist” issue seems disingenuous. Although several women were involved in initiating the on-line petition, there were over 200 signatures by the time I saw it, and it included some obviously male first names. HANA should avoid the application of the NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome.

The core issue here is that the industry is not listening to its customers whether they be casual bettors or serious players. If HANA were to simply dismiss this boycott for any reason, it might create the impression that it’s a grassroots cover for professional players, data vendors, and industry insiders to whom the interests of casual players are subordinated.

Bud, here are a few PA threads on the topic:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44570

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50353
You can find more by searching on “Filly Friday.”

To those we’ve already heard from who would prefer to shoot this messenger rather than consider the message. I can only ask them what they’re doing to try and change the status quo. I’ll be waiting, guys.

Oh, and please be sure to mention me by name so that I can see it in print. :lol:

Hard2Like

10-15-2008, 07:32 PM

Whadda ya'll got lined up to complain and argue about come November?

Steve 'StatMan'

10-15-2008, 07:41 PM

I am very surprised that PA is letting his posters write all this crap :confused:

Hi Bud, I don't think McSchell is refering to my portion of the thread. I sense he's thinking more of the boycott portions, and the reasons some are stating are the reasons.

I think people should pass certain races if they have no insights into the race, or are not comfortable with betting races on a running surface that few have raced over - or take the risk and bet them if they want to, just be sure to get a worthwhile price for ones risk.

I can see some passing races, not really a boycott, for some handicapping reasons. But if one is available and able to get down on a horse on a price they wanted to wager it on, but are skipping that bet solely because the race is on a day that they are unhappy with, that'd seem a bit silly.

However, if a multi-race sequence bet like the Pick 6 gets messed up for someone because they hate one of the new races that was added, then sure, pass that bet, if you don't think you can win it with the bankroll you can easily afford to put toward it.

OK, Filly & Mare Day might seem a bit lame to some of us hard core guys. Some of use might rather see just the 2yo races and maybe a couple others moved to Friday instead, or perhaps the turf races if they don't like to bet them. During the week, some people want maiden races only carded on non-weekend days, so they don't have to bet them when they come out just on the weekend. We all have different ways we'd like to see it play out. Guess the BC guys are going to tinker with it, and we can be assured that some people won't like how they change it.

Up to the bettors to decide how they want to bet, if they do want to bet. If they want to share those reasons with us, they're taking the risk of sharing their thoughts with us, and our opinions of those thoughts.

How serious anyone is about actually wanting others to boycott either day, I don't know. Maybe this was a person's 'fun idea' of getting a measure on our group's feelings.

As for me, I may bet any race or day, or not. I often skip some BC races, though, always have wagere when I felt like it, although sometimes those feelings on that day are good for 'the game' but not necessarily my bankroll.

So as always, use judgement, preferably the 'good' kind, whatever your feeling is best for yourself on those days.

Steve 'StatMan'

10-15-2008, 07:47 PM

By the way, if one has to work on Friday and can't wager, I wouldn't consider that really boycotting that day, they just have to miss it. Although I can see why someone would be upset if they wanted to follow that card, say, on a Sunday, and are just registering their disappointment.

njcurveball

10-15-2008, 07:57 PM

To those we’ve already heard from who would prefer to shoot this messenger rather than consider the message. I can only ask them what they’re doing to try and change the status quo. I’ll be waiting, guys.

Oh, and please be sure to mention me by name so that I can see it in print. :lol:

WOW! This really wants to make me get behind supporting HANA! When confronted with a large negative response, you choose to try to "spin" it and then slap the same people in the face who you are trying to recruit.

Are you really working for Track Management? Perhaps we have found the mole. :D

DeanT

10-15-2008, 08:58 PM

WOW! This really wants to make me get behind supporting HANA! When confronted with a large negative response, you choose to try to "spin" it and then slap the same people in the face who you are trying to recruit.

Are you really working for Track Management? Perhaps we have found the mole. :D
NJ,

Indy is not trying to recruit HANA members, he is wondering if this issue is one that HANA members would want to make a plank in the platform.

It appears from horseplayer response that this issue would not be an issue for HANA to place its limited resources behind.

njcurveball

10-15-2008, 10:01 PM

NJ,

Indy is not trying to recruit HANA members, he is wondering if this issue is one that HANA members would want to make a plank in the platform.

.

From the wording in the poll, he speaks for HANA! Makes me wonder exactly what direction HANA is taking these days.

Robert Fischer

10-15-2008, 10:36 PM

concentrated- long term focus:
There are a lot of issues being addressed here at the same time, and I think one thing to consider is focusing on one key issue, such as Takeout.
I think a longterm boycott toward a specific track could be effective.
Gamblers could play certain other tracks while participating in that boycott.
When that track and circuit began to comprimise and negotiate, another track and circuit could be boycotted.

I Hate synthetic tracks from an aesthetic point of view and as a fan of the game's best interest. There should never be a GradeI or even a GradeII race on a synthetic track EVER. It was a moronic idea to install a minor league surface at some major tracks. Even more clueless to schedule racing's big event at that venue.
However, from a horseplaying point of view, it gives me an edge over the general public. Surface is a significant factor, and a decent amount of the money in the pools doesn't have a grasp of it.

I haven't been playing for about a month, and I plan on earning enough from the BC weekend to build a bankroll, and finance an online business. I won't be boycotting this time.

Indulto

10-15-2008, 11:37 PM

NJ,

Indy is not trying to recruit HANA members, he is wondering if this issue is one that HANA members would want to make a plank in the platform.

It appears from horseplayer response that this issue would not be an issue for HANA to place its limited resources behind.Dean,
I appreciate your making that distinction.

As a continuing sign-up member of HANA, I remain supportive of its goals and priorities as they still appear in the mission statement on the blog, but I can’t/don’t speak for HANA.

As I’m sure you remember, I’ve always been an outspoken advocate of the non-professional bettor with a personal priority that this overwhelming majority of players are also beneficiaries of whatever HANA is able to accomplish. All I’m trying to do now is enlist HANA’s support for what I sincerely believe would benefit all horseplayers.

I wouldn’t expect any resources expended beyond 1) official sanction, 2) supportive op-ed pieces that automatically get emailed to members, and 3) clarifying dialogue on PA like this one. Obviously, HANA's endorsement would get a lot of media play.

10-15-2008, 11:43 PM

Tom

10-15-2008, 11:54 PM

I am very surprised that PA is letting his posters write all this crap :confused:

What crap? These are racing's customer talking here.

Jeff P

10-15-2008, 11:56 PM

From the wording in the poll, he speaks for HANA! Makes me wonder exactly what direction HANA is taking these days.Actually, he doesn't speak for HANA. But I do.

One of the first decisions we made once HANA became a legal entity was to establish the following rule:

Everything we do at HANA will be done right. If something can't be done in a straightforward professional manner then our best course of action would be to not do it at all.

HANA's direction right now is that we are conducting a membership drive. Signing up lots of new members is the first best step we at HANA can take. We simply don't have enough numbers right now to do a boycott in a manner that will get the attention of those being boycotted, let alone the entire racing world.

But we are growing. Every single day more players out there find their way to the HANA site or blog, read what we are all about, and sign up as new HANA members. Every single day our numbers grow.

If you are a bettor who is less than thrilled with what horsemen and track execs are doing to the game that we love, head on over to the HANA site and become a HANA member:
http://www.HorseplayersAssociation.org

I'd like to make a point about the Breeder's Cup organization. First, they don't restrict their signal. Just the opposite. They actually make it a point to have their signal widely distributed. So even though the Breeder's Cup is being conducted at Santa Anita (a TOC/THG track) players can bet the Breeder's Cup through Premier Turf Club and be rebated. I actually like that idea. I think it's a great deal for the little guy. He can bet large competitive fields and be rebated as if he were a whale.

If HANA were a little more mature and actually did have enough numbers to conduct an effective boycott, there's no way in the world I could recommend boycotting a widely distributed rebated signal.

Give us a little time. Like I said, every single day our numbers grow. The day is coming when we WILL have enough numbers to get the attention of the racing world. When the time comes our first action (either boycott or procott) will be well planned. We'll announce it well ahead of time and do it in such a manner that it will be well publicized.

If it's a boycott, it'll be a boycott of a track that deserves one. Worthy boycott targets might be tracks restricting their signals, takeouts that are too high, or jurisdictions where rebates specifically aren't allowed.

If it's a procott, it'll likewise be a track that is deserving. Reasons that come to mind for a possible procott might be a noticeable effort to widely distribute a signal, takeout reductions, or possibly the signal itself being carried by an ADW offering rebates to the little guy.

-jp

.

Indulto

10-16-2008, 12:00 AM

I don't really see how boycotting Friday helps the small player.

It is pretty sad what has happened with the BC. If anything, the changes hurt the big player. The Breeders Cup has made most races outside of the Triple Crown second tier events. The one positive was you had 7, then 8, highly competitive races with deep fields and huge pools.

The recent changes have done nothing but dilute the fields of quality and spread out the gambling dollars among more races.It would help the small player by making more of them aware that collective action is necessary to change the status quo, and to look to HANA as the most likely agent of change. Regardless of the negative dollar impact on Friday -- and the resulting positive one on Saturday -- industry leadership will get a taste of what HANA will be able to accomplish with time, planning, and additional resources.

Indulto

10-16-2008, 12:55 AM

... I'd like to make a point about the Breeder's Cup organization. First, they don't restrict their signal. Just the opposite. They actually make it a point to have their signal widely distributed. So even though the Breeder's Cup is being conducted at Santa Anita (a TOC/THG track) players can bet the Breeder's Cup through Premier Turf Club and be rebated. I actually like that idea. I think it's a great deal for the little guy. He can bet large competitive fields and be rebated as if he were a whale.

If HANA were a little more mature and actually did have enough numbers to conduct an effective boycott, there's no way in the world I could recommend boycotting a widely distributed rebated signal.

... If it's a boycott, it'll be a boycott of a track that deserves one. Worthy boycott targets might be tracks restricting their signals, takeouts that are too high, or jurisdictions where rebates specifically aren't allowed.

If it's a procott, it'll likewise be a track that is deserving. Reasons that come to mind for a possible procott might be a noticeable effort to widely distribute a signal, takeout reductions, or possibly the signal itself being carried by an ADW offering rebates to the little guy. ...Good points, but don't forget, residents of California and some other states cannot be PTC customers. That, by itself, is sufficient reason to endorse the concept of saving the bulk of one's bankroll for Saturday.

BUD

10-16-2008, 08:25 AM

That is Great!! Hey I have never boycotted you...Neither in the time of my injury nor illness........Keep on making that Barley.....I'll keep on buying the beer......The true circle of life.....

Thanks Joanied..

That's just about my take on it also.
Since I've worked all my life doing jobs most women would not do...I am not a feminist either...but I hate this FILLY Friday, and having the card split via sexes...
it's also pretty damned dumb because there is always the possibility that a filly/mare would be entered in one of the colts/gelding races...example..what if they decided to run Zenyatta in the Classic...now what does THAT do to this ridiculous male/female format:bang:

I'm not happy with the two day format. I am not happy with dividing it into a male and female day. I am not happy about Pro Ride (although at least it's better than that other synthetic stuff, being mostly dirt...guess the Dirt Mile can be re named the '87% Dirt Mile":D and I am not happy that SA has the BC 2 years in a row....BUT...I can't wait:jump: to watch the best of the best compete...as mentioned by someone, from my home, in hi-def TV, crack open a cold one, a bowl of popcorn and be happy as a clam (hey...BUD...like your user name & avatar...we grow malt balrely for BUD;) )...
so I guess I won't be boycotting anything...but do support any effort that can possibly get some changes made for next year.

ezrabrooks

10-16-2008, 09:06 AM

Actually, he doesn't speak for HANA. But I do.

One of the first decisions we made once HANA became a legal entity was to establish the following rule:

Everything we do at HANA will be done right. If something can't be done in a straightforward professional manner then our best course of action would be to not do it at all.

HANA's direction right now is that we are conducting a membership drive. Signing up lots of new members is the first best step we at HANA can take. We simply don't have enough numbers right now to do a boycott in a manner that will get the attention of those being boycotted, let alone the entire racing world.

But we are growing. Every single day more players out there find their way to the HANA site or blog, read what we are all about, and sign up as new HANA members. Every single day our numbers grow.

If you are a bettor who is less than thrilled with what horsemen and track execs are doing to the game that we love, head on over to the HANA site and become a HANA member:
http://www.HorseplayersAssociation.org (http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/)

I'd like to make a point about the Breeder's Cup organization. First, they don't restrict their signal. Just the opposite. They actually make it a point to have their signal widely distributed. So even though the Breeder's Cup is being conducted at Santa Anita (a TOC/THG track) players can bet the Breeder's Cup through Premier Turf Club and be rebated. I actually like that idea. I think it's a great deal for the little guy. He can bet large competitive fields and be rebated as if he were a whale.

If HANA were a little more mature and actually did have enough numbers to conduct an effective boycott, there's no way in the world I could recommend boycotting a widely distributed rebated signal.

Give us a little time. Like I said, every single day our numbers grow. The day is coming when we WILL have enough numbers to get the attention of the racing world. When the time comes our first action (either boycott or procott) will be well planned. We'll announce it well ahead of time and do it in such a manner that it will be well publicized.

If it's a boycott, it'll be a boycott of a track that deserves one. Worthy boycott targets might be tracks restricting their signals, takeouts that are too high, or jurisdictions where rebates specifically aren't allowed.

If it's a procott, it'll likewise be a track that is deserving. Reasons that come to mind for a possible procott might be a noticeable effort to widely distribute a signal, takeout reductions, or possibly the signal itself being carried by an ADW offering rebates to the little guy.

-jp

.

I am not a member of any organization connected with racing, and am glad to hear that your group does not endorse the idea proposed by this thread. One question, which is not intended to be argumentative...How do you on one hand propose that your organization represents all North American Horse Players...but, on the other, supports selective rebating?

Ez

Indulto

10-16-2008, 09:10 AM

Let me first say that everything JP and miesque have posted in this thread is perfectly reasonable and responsibly cautious -- not unlike playing the favorite.

HANA’s current priority is recruiting new members – lots of them – enough to really have an impact as a collective voice.… The day is coming when we WILL have enough numbers to get the attention of the racing world. When the time comes our first action (either boycott or procott) will be well planned. We'll announce it well ahead of time and do it in such a manner that it will be well publicized. …One thing all of us have learned from the Big Brown-Curlin rivalry is that fate is fickle. BB’s connections didn’t strike while the iron was hot and take on Curlin in either the Woodward or the JCGC, and wound up getting burned.

There’s an old joke about a drunk on his knees underneath a street-light searching for something he had lost a block away because the light was better there. I think HANA has to look for new members where the light is and that’s on BC Friday. The impact on handle is not the key here, but taking advantage of fan dissatisfaction to get them to listen to HANA’s message and drive them to the blog is.

The media adores controversy and confrontation. News coverage would extend beyond the blogs. This would be a great time to take Derby Trail up on his offer for radio coverage. There are degrees of participation. Intentionally skipping just one race qualifies. Both new and existing HANA members could provide post-cup input about how they registered their protest in a better-thought-out-than-this poll on HANA’s website.

Sure it’s a longshot, but longshots win too. Better to have tried and failed than to never try. Timing is everything. HANA itself was suddenly spurred into motion when enough PA residents got pissed off by a comment reportedly made by a NYRA executive. It’s better to be lucky than good, and sometimes we have to make our own luck or at least be prepared to seize an opportunity when it’s presented.

Jeff P

10-16-2008, 11:45 AM

I am not a member of any organization connected with racing, and am glad to hear that your group does not endorse the idea proposed by this thread. One question, which is not intended to be argumentative...How do you on one hand propose that your organization represents all North American Horse Players...but, on the other, supports selective rebating?

Selective rebating?

No. In fact I am strongly opposed to the way the current rebating system came into being.

Towards the end of 2006 Tracknet began forcing ADWs offering rebates (IRG, RGS) to make certain changes - or else. The "or else" part was the threat to the ADW of not being able to bet into Tracknet pools. The "certain changes" part was a requirement that new account holders must have personal yearly handle of at least a million dollars. This effectively made rebates an impossibility for the little guy.

I am very much against what Tracknet did to the little guy.

In my head rebates are the same thing as a lowered takeout.

That is why I support ANY rebating... because it represents lowered takeout.

I would very much like to see takeout lowered for EVERYONE.

However, because of the way takeouts are determined - many separate racing jurisdictions each with their own politics and rules: Takeout lowered for EVERYONE becomes an extremely difficult objective to achieve.

A more realistic objective to achieve would be rebates for everyone that wants them regardless of yearly personal handle in a single racing jurisdiction.

Then repeat, repeat, repeat... until there are no racing jurisdictions left where rebates aren't available to the little guy...

Effectively lowering takeout for the little guy.

THAT's what I support.

-jp

.

DJofSD

10-16-2008, 11:52 AM

10-16-2008, 04:24 PM

Jeff,

In my head the current rebate situation is wealth redistribution. I could have the same hit ratio as a whale but because my handle is significantly less I don't get the same ROI. Some gets and others don't.

In the World Series of Poker, many so called pros don't pay a cent to get in. The amateurs pay the 10,000 out of their own pocket. While this should seemingly help the pro, I don't think one of them has won in years.

DeanT

10-16-2008, 04:34 PM

I agree with Jeff about the membership drive and the machinations of a procott/boycott or whatever.

If we do choose to procot something in the future it would be done in an encapsulating fashion, with much planning. I imagine we'd have press releases, get the word out to like minded bloggers, have our advisory board members put out the word and be a part of it, have some handicapping contests with HANA swag as prizes for members, and so on.

We'd probably have to set up a live blogging interface so handicappers like CJ, Dave S, Cary Fotias and Jeff could be giving some insights based on their software/sheets and provide interaction with members, and it would be extra special to have HANA people on the ground giving us live paddock reports. It would be an event and we'd work hard at making it successful, through nothing more than good old fashioned grunt work.

To achieve that we need numbers first. So as Jeff said, please sign up because we really do need all hands on deck to help our game.

ezrabrooks

10-16-2008, 04:59 PM

TommyCh

10-16-2008, 05:28 PM

DJofSD

10-16-2008, 05:34 PM

In the World Series of Poker, many so called pros don't pay a cent to get in. The amateurs pay the 10,000 out of their own pocket. While this should seemingly help the pro, I don't think one of them has won in years.
If you saw hour 2 of day 5 of the WSOP 2008, when the brat went off on the usual tirade, that was the one retort the "novice" player pointed out -- he was there because he ponied up $10K while Phil got in for free. Kind of shut him up.

rrbauer

10-16-2008, 06:17 PM

Does Santa Anita have lights? Why not run Friday's races in a happy hour mode, into prime time? Boycott is a moot point to me, because I have to work on Friday. If I miss even the first minute of a movie or TV show, I won't watch it. Having the BC races start Friday is the same to me. Get rid of the superflous races and run them all on Saturday.

The people who concocted this version of the Breeders Cup are clearly possessing of no knowledge of horse racing and it fans. More is not better and this is a misguided, fanciful manipulation by the bald marketing account managers.

Why is it so much more pleasant to watch the March races from Dubai? The World Series, Super Bowl and most other major sporting events are now unwatchable. Can't this country do anything right anymore?

No lights at SA last time that I was there. I know that many people are in the same situation that you are and will be unable to do much on Friday. I've seen the question in many places, "Why don't they have the two days on Saturday and Sunday?" I really don't have an opinion.

With stringent steroid testing, horseplayers face the daunting task of figuring out which horses have been using steroids to enhance their performances and will not be using them in the BC to avoid a positive test. Horseplayers also have to deal with a preponderence of performers going on a synthetic surface for the first time. And, horseplayers have to deal with a turf course that is like a putting green with Hollywood and Del Mar being the only similar courses so in the absence of experience on one of the three SoCal courses it's just another unknown.

When you consider that the owners are getting mega-purses; the track is getting mega-prices for everything imaginable; and, the horseplayers are getting the same old deal with lot's of unknowns thrown in, it escapes me why anyone thinks the BC is such a great betting opportunity.

10-16-2008, 09:12 PM

Entry fee vs Parimutal wager... I don't get the connection.

The point was because he is a big player, he gets a break by getting in for free. Once at the table, it means nothing.

Let us say Player A commits to bet 1,000,000 a year with a 10% rebate. In essence, he is starting at +100,000. Once he starts betting, I don't see how that is going to really help him out. Sure, it is better than getting nothing, but how does that give him an advantage over me?

I am all for rebates for everyone. I just don't see the big advantage others seem to see.

Pace Cap'n

10-16-2008, 09:56 PM

It seems to be unanimous that the takeout creates a disadvantage to players.

Much to-do (HANA, etc.) has been made about lowering takeouts to ameliorate this disadvantage.

Rebates effectively lower the takeout. For some bettors.

Thereby creating an advantage for those with the lower effective takeout.

If the rebated players do not have an advantage, then the takeout cannot be seen as a disadvantage.

njcurveball

10-16-2008, 10:05 PM

Once he starts betting, I don't see how that is going to really help him out.

If you truly believe this, you are definitely involved in the wrong sport!

Given an extra 10% vig many spot plays cross the line from money takers to money makers. Most importantly the ones with a higher win %. It also allows you to put more money on the table.

To have a 10% rebate as opposed to playing behind, is even more advantageous than going to a casino and counting cards.

Sure the card counter is playing the same game as you, but he has a built in advantage and can make more advantageous wagers due to knowing he has an increased advantage.

I agree with Pace Cap'n that the #1 issue HANA needs to address is the takeout. Boycotting races due to some personal opinions and the need to get your name in print somewhere just trivializes the whole effort.

Charlie D

10-16-2008, 10:44 PM

Filly Friday, no problem, Synthetic racing, no problem, take out, though high, no real problem

What bothers me is, the clowns are in charge and they won't allow me to bet with who i want to bet with or watch the races i want to watch

When and if there is boycott for the above, i'm in

imo, rrbauer makes some good points (post 45) for not playing BC races

10-16-2008, 10:55 PM

If you truly believe this, you are definitely involved in the wrong sport!

Given an extra 10% vig many spot plays cross the line from money takers to money makers. Most importantly the ones with a higher win %. It also allows you to put more money on the table.

To have a 10% rebate as opposed to playing behind, is even more advantageous than going to a casino and counting cards.

Sure the card counter is playing the same game as you, but he has a built in advantage and can make more advantageous wagers due to knowing he has an increased advantage.

I agree with Pace Cap'n that the #1 issue HANA needs to address is the takeout. Boycotting races due to some personal opinions and the need to get your name in print somewhere just trivializes the whole effort.

I think you are misunderstanding me. Despite a 10% rebate, the player is still playing from well behind. Also, when betting large amounts of money in a parimutuel pool, you reach a certain point where your returns are diminished.

The main point is that once the player sits down and decides to bet, he is playing against other bettors in the same pools. He still has to be better than the others or he will lose, and in the case of somebody betting a lot of money, A LOT better.

Tom

10-16-2008, 11:27 PM

Boycott hell. I just downloaded the advance PPs and Friday looks like a great betting day. I put in for half a day off so I can play them all.

ezrabrooks

10-17-2008, 07:58 AM

The point was because he is a big player, he gets a break by getting in for free. Once at the table, it means nothing.

Let us say Player A commits to bet 1,000,000 a year with a 10% rebate. In essence, he is starting at +100,000. Once he starts betting, I don't see how that is going to really help him out. Sure, it is better than getting nothing, but how does that give him an advantage over me?

I am all for rebates for everyone. I just don't see the big advantage others seem to see.

The argument of whether a player gets an edge from selective rebates in a paramutual pool has been beat to death on this board, and we disagree. I was just trying to figure out your 'entry fee' comparison to a 'paramutual rebate'.

Ez

Wiley

10-17-2008, 10:07 AM

Boycott hell. I just downloaded the advance PPs and Friday looks like a great betting day. I put in for half a day off so I can play them all.
There's the rub. How many times a year do we have these betting days with a great opportunity for big scores? to me not many. With the best horses and at least a strong possibility of a fair playing field where ability is king with stricter drug testing, so I'll play the day for that reason, but hate the idea of an all 'girls' day and the 'Pro' ride factor.

Personal Ensign's win in '88 to me is the single greatest moment in BC history - for shear brilliance and excitement, though there have been many , now it happens on Friday afternoon with the potential for many to not see it live. Aviola has created a made for TV event, something he hammers tennis and golf for at the Bloodhorse roundtable video.

Niko

10-17-2008, 11:58 AM

I wouldn't pick one of the biggest race days to boycott either for many of the reasons mentioned.

#1 focus-reduce takeout or make more rebates available.
#1a) clean up the game (I'm not sure steroids are the biggest problem but I don't know-they do make a difference no doubt)

A series of boycotts at a specific track or for specific weekend(s) would be much better. If there's a very negative drop in handle that would get attention--advertising will not (in my opinion).

As a horse racing fan I want to enjoy watching the best horses running against each other and appreciate it. I won't know what the hell to do with the 2 year old turf races, but other than that, it'll be a lot of fun betting both days.

I'm really looking forward to it and as horse racing fan I think we should enjoy racings biggest days and make sure we invite others to take in the fun......

Tom

10-17-2008, 12:50 PM

Two races last year - both on Friday were gold mines. The 8-1 on the filly (forget her name) was a gift that kept on giving well into 2008 ;)

The opportunities will arise for generous odds on a confusing day, I think more so now on the throw run track.

Indulto

10-17-2008, 05:57 PM

Seems like the smartest thing to with this poll is delete it. If I were running a track and saw 10% of a group of a few hundred are going to boycott a day with a handle over 10 million, I would laugh my head off.

If you want to be serious about this stuff, you will need to have members register somewhere they can have their handle tracked and if you can POSITIVELY impact a track they might decide to listen.

Negative stuff like this on Racings biggest weekend seems more for some bloggers self pleasure and the chance they will see their name in print somewhere.That's why you and any real track executive who can't recognize he has a problem needs to be confronted.WOW! This really wants to make me get behind supporting HANA! When confronted with a large negative response, you choose to try to "spin" it and then slap the same people in the face who you are trying to recruit.

Are you really working for Track Management? Perhaps we have found the mole. :DLike the pre-invasion Iraqi informant known as "Curveball," your only intentional contributions are to muddle issues with disinformation. ;)
From the wording in the poll, he speaks for HANA! Makes me wonder exactly what direction HANA is taking these days.Tom likes to say, “Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.” Unintentionally you've raised two important issues.:faint: Actually, he doesn't speak for HANA. But I do.

One of the first decisions we made once HANA became a legal entity was to establish the following rule:

Everything we do at HANA will be done right. If something can't be done in a straightforward professional manner then our best course of action would be to not do it at all.

HANA's direction right now is that we are conducting a membership drive. Signing up lots of new members is the first best step we at HANA can take. We simply don't have enough numbers right now to do a boycott in a manner that will get the attention of those being boycotted, let alone the entire racing world. ...I have two questions, JP: 1) Who IS working for whom and 2) How will HANA serve the interests of those who bet for entertainment?

Is there such a thing as conducting a protest in a "professional" manner? Are there standards for protests? How does the manner in which a boycott is conducted benefit horseplayers as opposed to grocery market workers for example?

Assuming HANA reaches the magic number yet to be mentioned, what specifically do they expect to be able to accomplish and how would it work? Will it be one massive effort to overwhelm the opposition or a series of skirmishes to wear them down?

Professional bettors could stop racing in its tracks. A mere 1% of bettors could remove 10% of handle anywhere. The fact that they don't suggests they are happy with the status quo. How many members are necessary to achieve a positive result for non-professional bettors? Is it unreasonable to ask such questions of those requesting donations?

As I write this, there have been 94 responses with 19 supportive and 65 unsupportive. The 10 who would have supported with HANA endorsement has not increased since JP's post. If I've influenced 19 people to withhold $25 from Friday's handle, that's $475. If HANA could influence 1000 people to do likewise, that woud be $25,000. Maybe next time they'd be abe to influence 10,000. It would be hard to ignore a quarter of a million dollars.... I agree with Pace Cap'n that the #1 issue HANA needs to address is the takeout. Boycotting races due to some personal opinions and the need to get your name in print somewhere just trivializes the whole effort.To address the takeout issue, HANA will need the support of many for whom takeout is not the most important issue.

Speaking of the trivial, did you ever actually sign up as a HANA member or are you bashing HANA as well as me? Are you another angry New Jersey resident with one foot out the door? :D

NJC, almost every time I read one of your posts, I'm reminded of what it was like to drive past Secaucus. :lol:

JBmadera

10-17-2008, 06:04 PM

Boycott hell. I just downloaded the advance PPs and Friday looks like a great betting day. I put in for half a day off so I can play them all.

I'll second that!!!

ezrabrooks

10-17-2008, 08:14 PM

I am going to have to check my hole card...as I have been in total agreement with the NJ Yellow Hammer on several issues of late.

Ez

Indulto

10-17-2008, 08:59 PM

Boycott hell. I just downloaded the advance PPs and Friday looks like a great betting day. I put in for half a day off so I can play them all.I assume you won't be docked any income, but isn't it a shame you have to sacrifice any employment benefit to participate on a day that I sincerely hope will be both enjoyable and profitable for you.

I really feel badly for those who have to work on Saturday whose card I'm also anticipating as providing great betting opportunities, even if not necessarily worthy championship events.

Good luck to everybody betting what could be even better. The girlcott is only negative for those who are happy with the status quo in racing. For the rest, it's actually a positive opportunity to tell racing it needs to get its act together; preferably sooner than later.

njcurveball

10-18-2008, 10:59 AM

As I write this, there have been 94 responses with 19 supportive and 65 unsupportive. The 10 who would have supported with HANA endorsement has not increased since JP's post. If I've influenced 19 people to withhold $25 from Friday's handle, that's $475.

Rather than go off on your school boy rants, you might nieed to read the above.

It is totally obvious that you are doing this to try to get your name attached to someones blog (woo hoo) or perhaps even get it in print somewhere (big deal).

This whole thread is a perfect indication why someone like yourself should sit in the back of the bus and keep your mouth shut.

Your insults aren't even good ones. Pre-invasion Iraq? Secaucus? Seriously now? If this were some politicial thread in off topic then perhaps you could have your school boy moments.

The name attached to this thread is HANA and when people google HANA they will read your crap. I assure you that your nonsense and rants has not helped the cause.

You can reply to me now all you want, go off on rant after rant. If a stopped clock is right twice a day, the ignore button is right 24/7. :lol:

cj's dad

10-18-2008, 12:29 PM

Gee, lets see , Friday afternoon hmmm....

no football, baseball, or basketball on TV so just maybe the casual sports fan will watch a few of the races and actually become a fan of horseracing. Novel idea, might just work !

Jeff P

10-18-2008, 04:38 PM

JP: 1) Who IS working for whom?Are you kidding me? Just what are you implying here?

How will HANA serve the interests of those who bet for entertainment?We will serve those interests by determining what those bettors want and going after it in a straightforward professional manner.

How will we determine what they want?

Member comments on the HANA sign up form are one gauge. We're currently displaying actual member comments right on the home page of our site. Recurring themes (in no particular order) coming out of those comments are:

1. Horsemen are preventing track signals from going out to ADWs. This alienates customers by making us to have to jump through too many hoops just to get a bet down. As a result many cut back on their betting or leave the game for other more rewarding pursuits.

2. Takeouts are too high and racing is not competitive with other forms of gambling. Takeout and rebates have been beaten to death in other threads so there's no need for me to comment further about that here other than to say that takeout matters to our members.

3. Players aren't the only ones who are sick and tired of seeing trainers who cheat get away with a slap on the wrist after their 8th or 9th drug violation. Owners and trainers who don't cheat are signing up as HANA members. THEY are telling us they are sick and tired of seeing it too.

4. Track management's poor history of addressing (or even acknowledging) customer needs and wants.

Another way to determine what our members want would be the ability to poll them. We don't have that ability on our site yet. But we soon will have. That particular programming project is one of several I'm currently working on.

Which brings me back to the poll conducted here in this thread, apparently on HANA's behalf...

I want everybody out there to understand it wasn't HANA that decided to post the Breeder's Cup Boycott Poll at the top of this thread.

The poll itself was posted by Indulto.

Indulto, in your own poll, PaceAdvantage member sentiment ran about 4 to 1 against a Breeder's Cup boycott. And yet here you are singling ME out by writing things like "JP: 1) Who IS working for whom?" when I decided not to endorse a Breeder's Cup boycott. Why would you do that?

Is there such a thing as conducting a protest in a "professional" manner?You better believe there is.

Believe me when I tell you this. Once we ARE ready to start staging events, the racing world is going to know about each event well ahead of time. You're going to read about them in the press - both beforehand - and afterwards. Track management and horsemen's groups are going to be very much aware of HANA and what bettors everywhere stand for.

When we stage a procott track execs are going to see spikes in handle during our events. Conversely track execs are going to notice drop offs in handle should HANA decide on a boycott. And again, the press is going to report it.

The only way that track execs and horsemen's groups are ever going to take an organization like HANA seriously is if we conduct ourselves properly.

They have to know we mean business and that we are 100 pct on the level. We do that by saying what we are going to do and then we simply go out and do exactly what we said we were going to do. IMHO, there is no other way to conduct one's self.

And if we do that here's what will happen:

For the first time ever track execs and horsemen's groups are going to have to deal with the fact that the landscape has changed. It is at this point - and this point only - that the customer will ever matter to them.

That's what I'm shooting for.

Thank You,

-jp

http://www.horseplayersassociation.org

.

Indulto

10-18-2008, 09:26 PM

…Which brings me back to the poll conducted here in this thread, apparently on HANA's behalf...

I want everybody out there to understand it wasn't HANA that decided to post the Breeder's Cup Boycott Poll at the top of this thread.

The poll itself was posted by Indulto.

Indulto, in your own poll, PaceAdvantage member sentiment ran about 4 to 1 against a Breeder's Cup boycott. And yet here you are singling ME out by writing things like "JP: 1) Who IS working for whom?" when I decided not to endorse a Breeder's Cup boycott. Why would you do that? …JP,
Any interpretation that the poll was on HANA’s behalf was unintended. DT recognized that immediately. The curveball’s intentions remain unstated. Sorry if the tone of my response to him appeared to carry over to my response to you.

Rather than singling you out, I was acknowledging your clear statement that YOU speak for HANA.

The member comments added to the website is a good idea. I hope you will soon be adding a capability of scrolling through them at the reader’s pace. Even a temporary spreadsheet format like selfappointedfancommittee uses would help. By allowing members to see ALL the comments of other members, the grassroots flavor is maintained.

The mission statement and “who we are” piece on the website leave a certain impression.Our Mission Statement:

H.A.N.A. is committed to giving horseplayers a voice. By banding together we can bring about change and compel the horseracing industry do something it has never done: actually listen to its customers. By making them aware of customer needs and wants we can motivate track management and horseman's groups to reverse course and start doing the things needed to bring the game of horseracing back to the prominence and greatness it so richly deserves.Who are we and what do we want?

H.A.N.A.is a grass roots Non Profit organization made up of horseplayers just like you. Simply put, we are not happy with track management and horsemen's groups. We are less than thrilled with what they are doing to the game that we love.

Instead of promoting awareness of the sport and growing handle they have become bogged down with industry infighting and have completely forgotten something: The importance of the customer.

We are tired of the signal wars, exclusive ADW deals, excessive takeouts, breakage, trainers who are rewarded for cheating, an obsolete tote system, and an attitude that smacks of entitlement.

We want open access to all track signals for all ADWs, takeouts that are competitive with other forms of gambling, the abolishment of breakage, severe penalties for trainers who cheat, and odds updates in real time. But most of all we want those who run racing to recognize us. The player matters. The player is a stakeholder too. Without money bet by us players the game would cease to exist. …
That impression is that the most important goal of HANA is for racing’s customers to be treated with respect.

Coincidently, that is the goal of the girlcotters too.

For HANA to succeed in acquiring that respect, it will need to show its members the same respect it desires and listen to them as you appear to be doing now.

One way that is accomplished is with open member feedback and response from “management.” I’m glad to hear that polls will be conducted on the website. Will such polls only be management initiated? Will regular minutes of meetings and perhaps transcripts when important decisions are made be available? Open access by members to the process is critical to being considered a grass roots effort.

Regarding MY poll, I would have thought the surprising strength of the response to the “might if HANA were to support” option (at least until you put the Kibosh on it) would have been of interest to HANA as a measure of support from the board. If you don’t plan on a poll of your own here for that purpose, you might want to encourage those who would have voted for that option to continue doing so.

So what’s more important ... respect or lower takeout? Will the latter ever occur without the former? Can the two only or even be accomplished simultaneously? With or without HANA, one estimate of girlcotter strength exceeds 500. Some of those may already belong to HANA, but wouldn’t you want those who aren’t – confirmed wallet-closers all – as members of HANA?

If HANA doesn’t want people willing to take such collective action, where should they go, and who DOES HANA want?

Respectfully,
Indulto

DanG

10-19-2008, 08:23 AM

In the last two years (give or take a few races) 495,443 animals have entered open company and 4,522 have been female. 99% of ALL open company races are essentially the “Filly Friday” concept and I don’t see the need to boycott any of them on those grounds.

The Ky Oaks is run pre-Derby on Friday and the exceptional (Eight Belles, Winning Colors etc) fillies have the option to compete in either as do >2yo BC animals. We have created a day where Zenyatta in essence is the marquee animal in her own Classic.

We segment races in North America some say too much, but it’s a fact we do. Two days is one too many for some…I would like 4 similar to what Royal Ascot runs, but as usual I seem to be in the bloggers minority. When Saratoga closes I never wind up saying ‘that was just too long and the ingenious idea of a year end championship deserves at least a portion of the racing classifications we use every day.

Maybe because Tampa will never get the BC that I don’t feel a provincial axe to grind about location or duration. I thank John Gaines for inventing the concept and many who hold the Jockey Club close to heart (that Gaines didn’t btw) seem to throw more cold water on an event that should be an industry celebration. Par for the course in an incredibley jaded industry. :ThmbDown:

Two days of class racing with large pools and the prospect of decent weather…how many minutes to post! :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Tom

10-19-2008, 11:54 AM

I think the splitting of the original Cup was a mistake - they should have split by original and after-thought races. But c'est live! The True Classic was run at Belmont, the JCGC, and Curlin is horse of the year. End of story, no matter what he does Saturday.

Tradition is gone from this sport. Consider the Dirt mile. Last year, run at a mile and 70, and the next two years not on dirt. Duh! The Dirt Mileis what it is not.

Truth in advertising might suggest the BC cup be renamed to The "Milk It for EVERY Nickel Cup" races.

Marshall Bennett

10-19-2008, 12:11 PM

May not have been a bad idea to run the legends race during the BC . How could anyone boycott that ?

DeanT

10-19-2008, 12:25 PM

DanG,

It is interesting that they have tweaked it to two days. I don't begrudge them by trying new things. Super Bowl week is an event and never was. maybe BC week will be an event as well. Who knows?

I am currently reading "A Bloody Good Winner" by pro handicapper from the UK Dave Nevison. He speaks quite a bit about UK racing. The four day carnival is a good example that you have noted. And their meets are a good example, too. People seem to enjoy that. He said in the book the last time he went to a BC was at Belmont and he noted that it is not much different than a big Saturday at one of their top meets.

I think they have a way to go to make the BC a true festival. We'll see how this two day experiment goes. Maybe it can catch some fire.

You make an excellent point about Zenyatta as well. She will get much more press being the star of her own day. From purely a marketing angle, her being the star Friday might do some good and start some tradition.

Indulto

10-19-2008, 05:39 PM

Hey Dan & Dean,
Just because you rebated rock stars get “two payoffs for every bet” doesn’t make the BC a “woody” in Synthetic SURFace CITY. :lol:

It may well be an oldie, but it’s no longer a goodie.

Tom is right on with his “Truth in advertising might suggest the BC cup be renamed to The "Milk It for EVERY Nickel Cup" races.” You can try to put lipstick on this pig, but it still won’t fly. The Emperor has no clothes and at least 30 out of 103 poll responders can see that. ;)

DeanT

10-19-2008, 05:42 PM

We can disagree. I am really looking forward to both days.

No rebates from Socal for me, so that is a downer, but we'll just do a bit more spectating and less betting.

Indulto

10-19-2008, 06:07 PM

We can disagree. I am really looking forward to both days.

No rebates from Socal for me, so that is a downer, but we'll just do a bit more spectating and less betting.Of course we can disagree, and be lighthearted about it as well. I like the sound of Friday's spectators becoming Saturday's speculators. ;) I doubt I could bet against Zenyatta anyway.

Are you saying that PTC can't provide rebates on BC races to its customers?

Stevie Belmont

10-20-2008, 09:50 AM

I'm blwoing off Friday....Maybe I'll get in on some of that Cocoa Beach action...

Tom

10-20-2008, 09:58 AM

Your own version of "Filly Friday?" :p;)

Indulto

10-20-2008, 01:26 PM

For those who don't feel it is important for fans/players to indicate their dissatisfaction with racing's deaf leadership, I submit the following which should really be read in its entirety:

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Zasts-TrackWords
Trouble in “The Greatest Game”
By Vic Zast October 13, 2008… Almost every analyst points the finger of blame for [the current financial crisis] at leaders who no longer are able to exude the public’s trust. …

… The same insidious cause has placed “The Greatest Game” in a state of being “The Greediest Game.”

Not surprisingly, the Sport of Kings is in meltdown. Its current leaders have made terrible decisions and allowed abuses to transpire for the quick and mighty buck. Yet, only a few short months ago, organizations composed entirely of people responsible for the condition the sport is in had the audacity to insinuate that they know how to fix it.

… Thoroughbred racing is one broken-down star away from its takeover by outsiders. It is down to a few thousand racetrack visitors from the sad day it will cease to exist as a spectacle. It is over-indulged with too many racing dates and under-represented by lasting heroes or a representative Handicap Division. The inherent value of fixtures has been overwhelmed by the Breeders’ Cup. Every decision is based on improving handle. Cold-hearted technology aimed at making the public stupid, lazy and anti-social is embraced as if the resulting rise in wagering is a justification for cutting the heart of the sport out. In that specific regard, betting for the year has declined.

If those situations aren't bad enough, purses and profits are propped up on casino revenues. Television coverage is mired at viewer levels that only advertisers with presidents who own horses can justify as a cost of sales. Opportunists have served their own interests in favor of the public good so capriciously that horse racing’s only hope for future existence may rest, like the economy, in the hands of Congress. …

… Racing’s establishment, riding a similar high as the sport reaches new lows, will point proudly to studies about medication and track safety that have been originated in recent months, as if these advancements even remotely coincide with reconstruction. Two Breeders’ Cup championship days will come and go and be followed by massive chest-thumping. The display will take place provided, of course, that nothing ill-toward or tragic occurs in the unfolding. Even then there will be words spoken to identify a silver lining. Such a message is, after all, what must be said, given the shaky precipice on which the future is resting.

Indulto

10-20-2008, 01:50 PM

From Equidaly:

http://www.trackmaster.com/retail/steved/sd1008.htm (http://www.trackmaster.com/retail/steved/sd1008.htm)
ACROSS THE BOARD by Steve Davidowitz
for TrackMaster - October, 2008BREEDERS’ CUP LINEUP AND WAGERING MENU: We now have 14 Breeders' Cup races and two days to play them in more ways than I can count.

Prediction: At some point down the road, maybe sooner than any of us may be willing to accept, we will see BREEDERS’ CUP WEEK’ in which there will be 20-30 Breeders' Cup races spread out over five racing days, with a Breeders' Cup Pick Four and/or a Breeders' Cup Pick Six on each day. Among the new Breeders' Cup races, don’t be surprised to see:

The $250,000 Breeders' Cup Maiden First Time Starter Sprint
The $500,000 Breeders' Cup NW2L Mile
The $750,000 Breeders' Cup Lightning at 2 furlongs
The $999,000 Breeders' Cup Veterans Turf at two miles for 5 year olds and up

Don’t be surprised, because the Breeders’ Cup is relentlessly looking for ways to put up more races on more days to raise more revenue through premium (read that exorbitant) ticket prices.

DeanT

10-20-2008, 02:02 PM

Indulto

10-20-2008, 02:29 PM

I am not sure about rebates at the BC this year Indy. It is in CA and they dont seem to like giving them out. I have not checked.

It will be interesting to see if the BC chooses this route that John and Steve are speaking about. The proof will be in the pudding.

Interesting discussion on FOX yesterday about the top ticket for the Super Bowl being raised too. Soon the Bowl will be just a corporate game according to Bradshaw and the other guys who were chatting about it.Dean,
Thanks for the clarification. If, in fact, the BC does allow the TOC to dictate their policy, would it also apply to RGS and Elite customers?

I'd appreciate your letting us know what you find out from your various sources. ;)

BTW, the author of the HRI article was Vic Zast who has written some other recent articles on this subject worth reading.

applebee

10-20-2008, 03:23 PM

Actually, he doesn't speak for HANA. But I do.

One of the first decisions we made once HANA became a legal entity was to establish the following rule:

Everything we do at HANA will be done right. If something can't be done in a straightforward professional manner then our best course of action would be to not do it at all.

HANA's direction right now is that we are conducting a membership drive. Signing up lots of new members is the first best step we at HANA can take. We simply don't have enough numbers right now to do a boycott in a manner that will get the attention of those being boycotted, let alone the entire racing world.

But we are growing. Every single day more players out there find their way to the HANA site or blog, read what we are all about, and sign up as new HANA members. Every single day our numbers grow.

If you are a bettor who is less than thrilled with what horsemen and track execs are doing to the game that we love, head on over to the HANA site and become a HANA member:
http://www.HorseplayersAssociation.org

I'd like to make a point about the Breeder's Cup organization. First, they don't restrict their signal. Just the opposite. They actually make it a point to have their signal widely distributed. So even though the Breeder's Cup is being conducted at Santa Anita (a TOC/THG track) players can bet the Breeder's Cup through Premier Turf Club and be rebated. I actually like that idea. I think it's a great deal for the little guy. He can bet large competitive fields and be rebated as if he were a whale.

If HANA were a little more mature and actually did have enough numbers to conduct an effective boycott, there's no way in the world I could recommend boycotting a widely distributed rebated signal.

Give us a little time. Like I said, every single day our numbers grow. The day is coming when we WILL have enough numbers to get the attention of the racing world. When the time comes our first action (either boycott or procott) will be well planned. We'll announce it well ahead of time and do it in such a manner that it will be well publicized.

If it's a boycott, it'll be a boycott of a track that deserves one. Worthy boycott targets might be tracks restricting their signals, takeouts that are too high, or jurisdictions where rebates specifically aren't allowed.

If it's a procott, it'll likewise be a track that is deserving. Reasons that come to mind for a possible procott might be a noticeable effort to widely distribute a signal, takeout reductions, or possibly the signal itself being carried by an ADW offering rebates to the little guy.

-jp

.

Very nice. its all about taking those baby steps.

Indulto

10-21-2008, 12:14 PM

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/20/sports/RAC-Breeders-Cup.php (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/20/sports/RAC-Breeders-Cup.php)
Breeders' Cup could be hard to handicap
The Associated Press October 20, 2008…"I think the handle will be down because people are not going to be sure. How do you judge these horses that never run on these tracks?" Hall of Fame trainer Bobby Frankel said. "You're not going to bet with a whole lot of confidence. If they're going to bet $5,000, they might make it $1,000."

… Frankel, who will saddle Champs Elysees and Mast Track in the Classic, is no fan of artificial surfaces.

"Like I told somebody, 'George Bush sold the war and these people sold this track.' No basis to what they're saying, just told you lies," he said, adding he doesn't buy the arguments that synthetic surfaces require lower maintenance and are safe. …http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/breederscup08/columns/story?columnist=paulick_ray&id=3652601 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/breederscup08/columns/story?columnist=paulick_ray&id=3652601)
Ladies first for 25th Breeders' Cup
By Ray Paulick 10/20/2008… There's no question the Breeders' Cup took the Filly Friday idea from Churchill Downs, which holds the Kentucky Oaks on a Friday and the Derby on Saturday. Combined, those are the two most successful consecutive racing days the sport has each year (the 2006 combined Oaks/Derby day handle was a record $208 million). Last year, the first time the Breeders' Cup had its two-day format, handle was $147 million. Despite the severe problems with the world economy, Breeders' Cup handle should increase this year, though no one expects it will come close to the Oaks/Derby day totals. I would think anything approaching $175 million for the two days would be considered a success.

… I got the feeling that Jerry Moss, who owns Zenyatta with his wife, Ann, isn't wild about having his amazing mare showcased on a Friday afternoon. When asked about the schedule change during a media teleconference, Moss was diplomatic, saying he'd be happy to show up whenever the race is run. "I really don't have a comment on [moving the race to Friday]," Moss said. "It's not my place to ruminate about that." …

Indulto

10-22-2008, 04:24 AM

http://www.whittierdailynews.com/sports/ci_10780178
Level of competition could make for some nice payoffs
By Kevin Modesti 10/21/2008… In the first 24 years of the Breeders' Cup, some races have often produced big payoffs while others have consistently been won by low-priced favorites.

… For the Breeders' Cup races that have been around for a while, I've tallied A.) "upset wins" (by non-favorites), B.) "long-shot wins" (by horses paying 10-1 or more, and C.) photo finishes (races decided by a neck or less). A and B are self-explanatory; C tells how susceptible a race has been to fluky results.

The most long-shot friendly Breeders' Cup races have been the Sprint (19 upsets, 12 long shots, 8 photos), the Classic (18, 7, 8), the Turf (17, 8, 7) and the Mile (18, 7, 5).

The most favorite-dominated have been the Juvenile Fillies (10, 5, 4), the Filly & Mare Turf (5, 3, 1 in nine runnings), the Juvenile (15, 4, 5) and the Ladies' Classic (14, 6, 6).

… The long-shot races, the Sprint, Classic, Turf and Mile, are the male-dominated ones for older horses - that is, 3-year-olds and up of either sex. Most of the chalky races, the Juvenile Fillies, Filly & Mare Turf and Ladies' Classic, are strictly for females.

This flies in the face of the old racetrack theory that female racehorses are less reliable than males.

Basically, it all suggests that trying to beat favorites Stardom Bound in the Juvenile Fillies and Zenyatta in the Ladies' Classic on Friday might be a waste of time and money.

And that keeping an open mind and handicapping creatively in the Sprint and Classic on Saturday has a chance to be very rewarding.Filly Friday favorite frenzy foretold? ;)

Indulto

10-22-2008, 06:03 PM

http://www.forbes.com/business/2008/10/21/marketing-horse-racing-biz-sports_cx_tvr_1021breederscup.html (http://www.forbes.com/business/2008/10/21/marketing-horse-racing-biz-sports_cx_tvr_1021breederscup.html)
Brownout At The Breeder's Cup
Tom Van Riper 2008/10/21… the event's new marketing director, Peter Land, … goal of 10% revenue growth from last year's $50 million. Horse racing enthusiasts already know that from an overall standpoint--wagering, attendance and setting the future values of the participants' offspring--the Breeder's Cup is the sport's most important event. Land's goal is to get more people to know that, as much for 2009 and beyond as for this year.

"The [Kentucky] Derby is an event, ours is less so," he says. "I'd like to change that."

Ask Land, a veteran of the NBA and Edelman Public Relations sports practice, how much time he ever spent thinking about horse racing during his two decade career in sports management, and you'll get a blunt answer.

"Maybe a week," he says. Until last October, that is. That's when his current bosses at Breeder's Cup decided that an outsider was just what the doctor ordered to shake up the sleepy championship racing series and turn it into a must-see event. One of Land's first discoveries was that the event registered a minuscule 6% in "unaided awareness," meaning that of every 100 random people asked a week before the races to identify the next upcoming championship sporting event, only six could name the Breeder's Cup.

His mission: persuade those football and baseball fans whose horse racing knowledge rarely extends past the Kentucky Derby to get interested. …

… The Breeder's Cup gets a cut of all wagering, which has averaged some $140 million in recent years.

The absence of Big Brown will likely be a drag on TV ratings and betting this year. But it has little bearing on the Cup's top source of revenue--nominations. When a thoroughbred is born, his owner pays an immediate $500 fee to "nominate" him for the Breeder's Cup two or three years out. Failure to nominate immediately means a six-figure fee later. Altogether, the Cup takes in $15 million annually in nominations and entry fees, almost a third of its revenue.

Dorfman thinks the dragging economy could actually be a benefit to the Cup this year, with more people opting to stay in and watch rather than hit the stores or restaurants.

… Selling yourself as your assets quickly turn over basically comes down to convincing sports bettors they're getting a good deal. As Land points out, why pay $100 to win $100 when you can pay $3 to win $100?

There's room for growth, especially with governments making strides toward cracking down on illegal Internet sports betting. Horse racing currently stands alone as the only legal online wagering outlet in sports.

"My gut says that if you're a big college or pro football guy that likes to gamble, I can get to you," Land says.

DanG

10-23-2008, 07:58 AM

Peter Land: A man who is at least attempting to target existing gamblers. What a novel concept in our industry. :eek:

Imriledup

10-23-2008, 08:21 AM

One of the things i dislike the most about 'championship' day is the inability to see warmups. All the providers and everything else is blacked out. You get to watch TV commercials from 11 mtp to 1 mtp. Then, you see these horses being jammed in the gate and you have to make your wagers at the last second. I know they handle a ton of money, but can you really bet tons of money without seeing how the Europeans are handling the 89 degree heat?

DJofSD

10-23-2008, 08:52 AM

how the Europeans are handling the 89 degree heat?

I think that will be a crucial factor. While it has not been a full blown (pun intended) Santa Ana, it has been warm and some would say hot. It has also been dry.

But, who knows what will happen over the next 24 hours.

Indulto

10-23-2008, 12:38 PM

http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_10789456 (http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_10789456)
Synthetic track debate rages on
By Art Wilson 10/22/2008 … listening to Breeders' Cup President Greg Avioli, horsemen should get used to synthetic tracks. He says they aren't going away and that there will be many more Breeders' Cups run over synthetic tracks, including Santa Anita in 2009 when it will become the first track to host the event in consecutive years.

"The reality is in the United States right now, you are going to see different types of surfaces," Avioli said. "I do not anticipate going back to an era where you only have traditional dirt. So it really was only a matter of time.

"Factoring that in, you have to take a look at the venues that are available to the Breeders' Cup. There's really only a handful of venues that have the size and the expertise to host a Breeders' Cup, and Santa Anita is one of the best of them. So we welcome coming to Santa Anita and we welcome the first year of synthetics."

The arguments for and against synthetic tracks are well-documented, and both sides seemingly refuse to give an inch.

Perhaps a national television audience will weigh in after watching Friday's and Saturday's 14 Breeders' Cup races worth $25.5 million. Maybe the attendance and handle figures this weekend will offer a clue as to where the bettors stand on the issue.

Either way, this is a debate that doesn't figure to go away anytime soon.http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/breeders/2008-10-22-avioli_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/breeders/2008-10-22-avioli_N.htm)
Breeders' Cup CEO Avioli proud of strides in sport
By Tom PedullaGreg Avioli has overseen a period of unprecedented change since he was hired as president and chief executive officer of Breeders' Cup Limited in April 2007 after serving on an interim basis for 10 months.

Before he became involved with Thoroughbred racing, Avioli, 44, helped to develop domestic and global properties involving the PGA Tour, the United States Tennis Association, the International Olympic Committee and the Atlanta Olympic Games Organizing Committee.

… Synthetic surfaces are still at a fairly early stage in their development in the USA. Why make a move to that surface now?

The board was unanimous in being an early adopter of synthetic surfaces because we truly believe it is a very meaningful and important development for the safety of horses and people. While it's relatively young in the U.S., statistics show these surfaces do prevent catastrophic injuries more than traditional dirt tracks.

Why was Santa Anita chosen as host for 2009 as well?

What we are trying to do is expand the event beyond the focus of the races to create more of a festival atmosphere. That is much easier to do when it's going to be 85 degrees and sunny. In addition, with the southern California market being the entertainment capital of the world, it brings us in much closer proximity to those types of people, whether they be rock stars or actors. I think it's a higher priority this year to connect with the entertainment community.

Why have so many changes been made recently after years of relative inactivity?

I think with the complacency of the Breeders' Cup and the overall status of horse racing, the Breeders' Cup has not achieved the position it deserves as one of the great American sports championships. We are the richest two days in sports in the world with $25 million in purses. Quite candidly, the Breeders' Cup had not broken through to the general public.

… You recently moved to a two-day format with six new races. Why do you think that will help?

Part of it is that old adage that bigger is better. Two days provides us with 50% more stories to tell. And when you are transporting horses, it's a very small incremental expense to add a second or third horse.

DeanT

10-23-2008, 12:48 PM

The BC, imo, are doing some good things. In that interview he tackles the fact that having the BC where it is 85 and sunny is important and it is. I went to Woodbine's BC, which was a great day and I had a great time and the weather was good. But it was not a summer spectacle. The Super Bowl is held where the weather cooperates, or an indoor stadium. People watching on TV want to see a place where "I wish I was there". IMO.

On the betting side, there is a story out that the BC will be available everywhere. So they have tackled the "full access" storyline. The Kentucky Derby has not done well with this.

So, imo, there is a nice balance with the BC.

As for filly Friday and synthetics, well the jury is still out. But we complain so much (horseplayers can complain about a lot of stuff over the years) and one thing we complain about is that they do not try new things. The BC seems to be trying new things. I cant criticize them for that.

In football there was plenty of criticism early for the Super Bowl. There was a ton of criticism about the "bug" score clock. People do not like change. But those two things are staples on broadcasts and championship games. Maybe by trying new things the BC can grow too. Who knows.

Indulto

10-23-2008, 01:31 PM

Trainers bemoan synthetic tracks as Breeders' Cup approaches
Breeders' Cup will be run on controversial synthetic track at Santa Anita, much to dismay of many trainers.
By Jerry Bossert 10/22/2008… "I'm not a big fan of it," said Jimmy Jerkens, … "It seems ridiculous that you can't maintain a dirt track that's safe enough to run on it."

That was the main reason why synthetic tracks began showing up throughout the country.

Right after Barbaro suffered his catastrophic injury in the 2006 Preakness Stakes, the California Horse Racing Board mandated that all major tracks in the state must install a synthetic racing surface, purportedly to make the sport safer.

The results are mixed.

... Some tracks are reporting fewer catastrophic injuries, but trainers are reporting different types of injuries to their runners.

"Here's the one stat," said Hall of Fame trainer Bobby Frankel. "They ran 30% more races at Saratoga than Del Mar and they had one fatality at Saratoga in the afternoon and that was on the grass. They had five fatalities at Del Mar in the afternoon."

Frankel also reports that he's had some issues with his horses' feet.

"When it's 90 degrees out, the (synthetic) track surface heats up to 160 degrees," Frankel said.

… "I'm staying out of that fight because I got involved and I was villainized or whatever you want to call it," Baffert said.

… "They felt if you spoke against it, you were against it," he said. "There is so much money. They have put so much money into it and the last thing they want is for someone to complain about it. I just decided to keep my mouth shut about it and let everyone find out as a whole."

As for safety, Baffert, like many others in the industry realize, "Horses are always going to get hurt. I don't think there is a safe surface. It's not safer."

… Hall of Fame trainer Wayne Lukas has kept his operation out of states that race on synthetics.

"I'm in Hot Springs (Oaklawn), Churchill, Saratoga, Belmont and Aqueduct," Lukas said. "I'm on all dirt tracks. I gear our program to that."

As for betting advice on this year's Breeders' Cup, Lukas offered, "If you're a bettor, I'd box seven numbers in a superfecta and throw them out there. Synthetics are great for that."

But are they great for anything else?

JustRalph

10-23-2008, 03:11 PM

The wife is off, we are going to have a great time watching!

Tom

10-23-2008, 03:40 PM

Imriledup

10-23-2008, 05:45 PM

Yeah, NBC used to have 8 hours of coverage, 22 minutes of it about horses.:rolleyes:

With the BC Coverage on NBC, if you see any horse from 11 mtp to 0 mtp, its by accident.

Indulto

10-23-2008, 06:00 PM

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/thoroughbred-bloggers-alliance/archive/2008/10/23/Capping-the-Breeders_2700_-Cup-Synch.aspx
'Capping the Breeders Cup is a 'Synch'
By Gene Kershner 10/23/2008… examining the races [on Pro-Ride] similar to how Bill Finley did in his book Betting Synthetic Surfaces, I looked at who was winning the races, wire-to-wire (leading at first call, WTW), stalkers (second or third at first call) or closers (fourth or worse at first call). WTW winners stood at 18.1% (27 of 149 races), Stalkers at 32.2% (48 of 149) and Closers, the leaders at 49.7% (74 of 149). Wow. The wire winners were much lower than Finley's survey of 1,300 conventional dirt tracks where they were around 30 percent. I also broke it down to sprint (races 7 furlongs or less) and route (mile or more) and the figures were similar to the overall percentages with a slight uptick for closers in route races (53.1% winners). In Finley's book, the percentages on 2,039 races run at all distances show the following: WTW (19%), Stalk (26%) and Closer (55%), so the Pro-Ride has held pretty similar to the other synthetic surfaces included in the survey (polytrack, tapeta, cushion track).

… The hottest post positions have been Post 5 and 6, winning at a 18.2% and 15.1% clip, respectively. The cooler positions appear to be inside, where the rail is only at 8.1% and the 2 post is at 9.4%. The center of the track appears to be producing more winners on the Pro-Ride. Good to know. The inside positions are even worse in sprints (7% at #1 and 9% at #2). Other notables, there have only been 3 winners in the three outside posts (all in the 12 hole), none coming from post 13 or 14 (in a limited amount of races).http://www.drf.com/news/article/99395.html
An event evolves with the times
By Jay Privman 10/23/2008 … Led by Avioli, the Breeders' Cup aggressively recruited Europeans for this year's event, and they embraced the switch to a synthetic surface and the tougher medication rules.

"It's critically important to keep the Breeders' Cup an international event," Avioli said. "There's no question the synthetic surface has increased the numbers."

A record total of 29 foreign-based horses were entered in the 14 Breeders' Cup races. …

joanied

10-23-2008, 06:53 PM

Trainers bemoan synthetic tracks as Breeders' Cup approaches
Breeders' Cup will be run on controversial synthetic track at Santa Anita, much to dismay of many trainers.
By Jerry Bossert 10/22/2008

excellent post.
I won't get into my rant too much about Pro Ride and all the other synthetics...it's pretty much what's been said before and again within your post, Indulto...
I never have seen a GOOD reason for this switch in surfaces, except to quiet the radical animal rights folks like PETA...it was a POLITICAL move on the part of CA, and there was no good reason for other tracks to follow in those footsteps...now we have several DIFFERENT synthetic surfaces to contend with, which puts horses at greater risk, switching from one type of rubber to another, and has to drive trainers crazy (I won't mention handicappers) as we see different types of injury and mishaps.
As mentioned by Frankel...there is no reason DIRT tracks can't be maintained as perfectly safe surfaces...and regardless of the surface, in all reality, horses will break down.

joanied

10-23-2008, 07:02 PM

The wife is off, we are going to have a great time watching!

My husband will still be working our harvest...but I'll be watching every minute...and enjoying:) every minute!!

I do hope though, that NBC gets it right this time...they spend way too much time on the handicapping stuff, they repeat odds every 2 minutes and that drives me crazy...they need to show the horses, horses, horses and get in some great story lines that surround the horses...THAT is what will draw new fans...not them repeating the odds constantly...I realize how important the handicapping is...but a televised event such as the BC needs to focus on the beauty and excitment of HORSE racing.

Regardless...:jump: :jump: :jump:
Have a fun day JustRalph & Mrs. JustRalph:)
PS...I am going to post my picks over at the BC topic section:eek: heehee

Indulto

10-23-2008, 08:44 PM

joanied,
I'll also be watching on Friday, and maybe playing in Bubbles contest as well, while I stash my cash for Saturday's card. Here's some more food for thought:

http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/1336447.html (http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/1336447.html)
Breeders' Cup is two much of a good thing
By Bill Bradley Oct. 23, 2008… One event that shouldn't have been changed is the Breeders' Cup, which is run this weekend. Last year, one of horse racing's biggest events switched from a single day of racing on a Saturday to a Friday-Saturday affair. And I'll bet the casual fan has lost patience with the event.

… with 14 races and two days, you've got to absolutely set something aside that you won't bet so you'll have something left for the Classic.

"Otherwise, you can be tapped out before you get to the really big race. There's so many races, it's really hard."

Did the Cup organizers ever hear of the "less is more" theory? It's apparent that greed – "if one day of racing is great, why not have two?" – got the best of them because they ruined a good thing.

JustRalph

10-23-2008, 10:36 PM

Yeah, NBC used to have 8 hours of coverage, 22 minutes of it about horses.:rolleyes:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Isn't it on ABC and ESPN
From the ESPN Website

Oct. 24
ESPN2, 3:30 p.m. - 6:30 p.m.
Race Post (ET)*
Filly & Mare Sprint 3:35 p.m.
Juvenile Fillies Turf 4:15 p.m.
Juvenile Fillies (Gr.I) 4:55 p.m.
Filly & Mare Turf (Gr.I)5:35 p.m.
Ladies' Classic (Gr.I) 6:15 p.m.

Oct. 25
ABC, 1 p.m. - 3:30 p.m. and
ESPN, 3:30 p.m. - 7 p.m.
Race Post (ET)*
Marathon 1:10 p.m.
Turf Sprint 1:50 p.m.
Dirt Mile 2:30 p.m.
Mile (Gr.I) 3:15 p.m.
Juvenile (Gr.I) 3:55 p.m.
Juvenile Turf 4:35 p.m.
Sprint (Gr.I) 5:15 p.m.
Turf (Gr.I) 6:00 p.m.
Classic (Gr.I) 6:45 p.m.

Indulto

10-24-2008, 12:21 AM

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwyre24-2008oct24,1,1345077.column (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwyre24-2008oct24,1,1345077.column)
Horse racing gets a chance to heal
Breeders' Cup puts the spotlight on the sport. Hopefully, nothing will go wrong.
By Bill Dwyre October 23, 2008Today's beginning of the two-day Breeders' Cup extravaganza at Santa Anita is the first day of the rest of horse racing's life. …

… It didn't used to be that way. In its heyday, racing had little to prove to anybody. Famous horses raced other famous horses and huge crowds showed up. There were occasional Triple Crowns to celebrate. The masses loved it, patronized it.

Then the masses started to age and the more hip sports that didn't dawdle 20 minutes between the next action spoke better to the new generation. The love of game horses was replaced by the love of Game Boys.

… With the likes of mixed martial arts and NBA slam-dunk contests slicing into its piece of the sports entertainment pie, horse racing galloped along nicely on the strength of its graceful athletes and the tiny warriors who rode them. The erosion was quiet.

But then Barbaro broke down in the 2006 Preakness, and the eight-month saga of trying to keep a severely injured Kentucky Derby winner alive, a saga that ended as most in horse racing knew it would, called unprecedented attention to the sport. …

… When Barbaro's tragedy was followed by fatal breakdowns of George Washington in the 2007 Breeders' Cup and the filly Eight Belles in this year's Kentucky Derby, the sport started to be viewed like your old Uncle Joe, who keeps slipping on the ice.

Now, the extended fan base that mostly watches four racing moments of each year -- the Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Belmont and Breeders' Cup -- cringes a little while it waits for Uncle Joe to slip again.

… Still, this remains a sport of contrasts and contradictions.

The talk in racing administrative circles is always about the greater good. But the reality, among the horsemen who provide the product, is that it is every man for himself and always will be.

… if you sit around Clockers' Corner at Santa Anita for a couple of mornings, you'll quickly find out that at least half the veteran horsemen here hate it and expect it to vanish, like hula hoops. ...

… Even the projected main show, Curlin versus Big Brown in the $5-million Classic, fell apart last week when Big Brown was injured in a training accident.

It was supposed to be a showdown, a great promotional peg. Now it is Curlin against the world, less catchy and less compelling.

They keep referring to this as a world championship event, and have set ticket prices accordingly. Yet ABC will depart its telecast halfway through Saturday, giving way to brother network ESPN, so it can carry regional college football action, meaning the UCLA-Cal game here. Would ABC depart the World Series in the fifth inning, or the Super Bowl at halftime? …

joanied

10-24-2008, 11:38 AM

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Isn't it on ABC and ESPN
From the ESPN Website

Oct. 24
ESPN2, 3:30 p.m. - 6:30 p.m.
Race Post (ET)*
Filly & Mare Sprint 3:35 p.m.
Juvenile Fillies Turf 4:15 p.m.
Juvenile Fillies (Gr.I) 4:55 p.m.
Filly & Mare Turf (Gr.I)5:35 p.m.
Ladies' Classic (Gr.I) 6:15 p.m.

Oct. 25
ABC, 1 p.m. - 3:30 p.m. and
ESPN, 3:30 p.m. - 7 p.m.
Race Post (ET)*
Marathon 1:10 p.m.
Turf Sprint 1:50 p.m.
Dirt Mile 2:30 p.m.
Mile (Gr.I) 3:15 p.m.
Juvenile (Gr.I) 3:55 p.m.
Juvenile Turf 4:35 p.m.
Sprint (Gr.I) 5:15 p.m.
Turf (Gr.I) 6:00 p.m.
Classic (Gr.I) 6:45 p.m.

Stand corrected:blush: I do have my TV set to record it on ABC...and ESPN...although I'll be watching live, always record these events...
3 more:( hours til post time (mtn. time)...have my picks and gonna post them over at the BC section!!

Have two great days, justralph!!

10-24-2008, 11:46 AM

3 more:( hours til post time (mtn. time)...

It is the same in every time zone! :D

joanied

10-24-2008, 11:46 AM

joanied,
I'll also be watching on Friday, and maybe playing in Bubbles contest as well, while I stash my cash for Saturday's card. Here's some more food for thought:

http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/1336447.html (http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/1336447.html)
Breeders' Cup is two much of a good thing
By Bill Bradley Oct. 23, 2008[/color]

As I mentioned to justralph...3 looooong hours til post time...so I'm going to post my picks in the BC section...already have them posted for today's card, although I may make a few changes...
your food for thought is good, and the other post with a quote from the LATimes is better... as far as the handicappers having too much on their plate, I guess it's just up to the individual bettor to be sure they have enough for all the races...although, a guy sure dosen't have to bet every race? About the 2 days, I am still trying to ake up my mind about that...last year I thought I hated it, this year, I am among the undecided... 14 races seems extreme, although it does give many horses a chance to run finding their 'niche' among all the race choices...
anyway... I'm eading over to post my Sat. picks.

Have a great Fri. & Sat., indulto...and may the best horses win!!
:jump:

joanied

10-24-2008, 01:16 PM

It is the same in every time zone! :D

Thanks for bringing that up!!
:blush: :bang: :blush:

Indulto

10-24-2008, 01:29 PM

Well, here it is -- midday Friday -- and 124 posters responded with a distribution among te ategories of 21, 2, 1, 0, 6, 10, 23, and 61 which I'll summarize as 84 unsupportive, 30 supportive, and 10 potentially supportive.

I'm encouraged that the positive response was as high as it was. I wish the 29 others with a similar point of view an effective wallet closing exercise, and hopefully some good things will happen as a result.

After re-reading Bubbles contest rules, I've decided to concentrate the imaginary two grand chasing the Ultra Pick Six (something I couldn't do in real life).

I expect there to be an excess of energy and enthusiasm for Saturday's events and I wish everyone an enjoyable experience.

Imriledup

10-24-2008, 02:59 PM

Tom

10-24-2008, 05:06 PM

Looking at the empty seats there today, a lot of people are boycotting it.
I wish I had! :mad:

Indulto

10-24-2008, 05:16 PM

Can you explain to me again what is the problem with having extra BC races in a 2 day format? Personally i like more opportunities to wager on races that are going to have huge pools and quality horses.

I'd rather boycott a track that raises takeout. Those are the times to save your boycotting i believe.

I would love it if a few million horseplayers all said ENOUGH and just stopped betting everything for the time being. I'd be available to just stop betting altogether in order to make a statement to the racing industry.If you are not available to stop betting on a day that is followed by one of even greater opportunity -- and while other horseplayers are protesting for whatever reason(s) they have -- I doubt you are serious about making a statement.

It's not important what I think or say. At the end of today's card, will you be more or less able to enjoy and profit from tomorrow's card as well as subsequent non-BC cards?

It will take less than a few million horseplayers getting involved, but we have to start somewhere.