View Full Version : Keeneland daily track variant
I'll be frank I'm struggling coming up with a reliable DTV for this track.
It seems that when they go quick over certain distances (7F in particular), that the final times are very slow. YEsterday for example Hattan Cross went a very slow last 3F but the first 4F had been very quick. I suppose my DTV is built around the assumption that if they go too quick early, they will pay for it a bit later in the race, but always to the same extent regardless of track/surface. But the way they slow down at KEE is extreme.
Any views on this?
Light
10-12-2008, 12:25 PM
I think Kee is one of those tracks that has an "about 7f " distance. I dont know if the "about" means shorter,longer or whatever the grounds crew feels like,but I would imagine that may have something to do with inconsistent times at that distance.
Cangamble
10-12-2008, 12:36 PM
I think Kee is one of those tracks that has an "about 7f " distance. I dont know if the "about" means shorter,longer or whatever the grounds crew feels like,but I would imagine that may have something to do with inconsistent times at that distance.
I have it rated at around 14 lengths slower than 7 furlong races. I just started doing Keeneland TV's recently, so I might be off by one or two points.
I have it rated at around 14 lengths slower than 7 furlong races. I just started doing Keeneland TV's recently, so I might be off by one or two points.
but surely they always start the race at the same point?
i mean that the late sectionals are very dependent on the early ones, and not necassrily to the same degree every day
Light
10-12-2008, 04:22 PM
Looks like they have two 7f distances. One is "about" 7f and the other is 7f. You can see that from the title of the races at 7f. The "about" 7f distance is 184 feet longer.So gate placement is different and turn times happen at a different arc of the turn in relation to fractional times. I'd say you'd have to make 2 different pars. One for the "about" and one for the regular 7f distances.
You can look at the overnights to see which distance the races will be run at.
podonne
10-13-2008, 01:19 AM
I've seen these in my pps. Why do they use "about" distances?
I have to discard the "about" part when i read them into my database (they come in as negative distances). Why not just list the actual distance?
ntheiroff
10-13-2008, 05:52 AM
The "about" 7 furlongs is "The Beard Course" at Keeneland. It is 7 furlongs + either 161' or 171' (I forget which)
ntheiroff
10-13-2008, 07:47 AM
After further review it is actually 7 furlongs plus 184 feet
Looks like they have two 7f distances. One is "about" 7f and the other is 7f. You can see that from the title of the races at 7f. The "about" 7f distance is 184 feet longer.So gate placement is different and turn times happen at a different arc of the turn in relation to fractional times. I'd say you'd have to make 2 different pars. One for the "about" and one for the regular 7f distances.
Really? Two different 7F distances?? Both on the polytrack? Do you have an example of each? I am amazed but it would explain certain numerical discrepancies that I have noticed.
The Hawk
10-13-2008, 08:50 AM
This isn't new, they've had about 7f and exactly 7f races for many years.
This isn't new, they've had about 7f and exactly 7f races for many years.
But how you can tell which one they're running on? I use Trackmaster.
Really? Two different 7F distances?? Both on the polytrack? Do you have an example of each? I am amazed but it would explain certain numerical discrepancies that I have noticed.
I can’t speak for Trackmasters symbols, but check this date. Race-9 better have a notation, or may I suggest…sacking Trackmaster. (With all due respect)
Trk Date Race Dist About
KEE 10/8/2008 1 7
KEE 10/8/2008 3 7
KEE 10/8/2008 8 7
KEE 10/8/2008 9 7 Y
After further review it is actually 7 furlongs plus 184 feet
So the question now is the half mile....is is 4 furlongs or 4 furlongs + 184 feet?
IF it is the linger distance, that would explain some rally weird pace times I have seen over the years.
And the real question is, they only run two friggin weeks, why do they need two 7 furlong distances? They aren't going to wear out the gate spot in two weeks? Makes no sense to me to do this, unless they just want to piss of handicappers.
My solution to this is I never, ever, use any pace of speed ratings from Kee.
I look at all KEE races as workouts and don't bother with them. All KEE pacelines are automatic excuses for me. "Move along, nothing here to see, move along.":D
BillW
10-13-2008, 09:39 AM
So the question now is the half mile....is is 4 furlongs or 4 furlongs + 184 feet?
It should be handled just like any other "about" distance (you mostly see this on turf when the rail is out).
I believe the Beard course is a tradition thing.
socantra
10-13-2008, 10:50 AM
The Beard course is usually referred to as 7.3 furlongs and runs out of the same chute as the standard 7f races. The 4f par is about a tenth of a second faster than the standard 4f par for 7f and the final time par about three and a half seconds slower.
Its named after the guy who put up the primary money for the 2nd round of Keeneland building in 1940, even though they didn't run it til 1965. I think its a case of many local rich people who still have kids and grandkids around and have to be honored. My favorite is the Headly 4.5f course which comes out of its own little chute off to the side. Its named after one of the shakers and movers from mid thirties round of Keeneland building.
Hmmmmmm. A stupid distance is tradition.....but making it plastic-crap is OK.
Got it. :rolleyes:
I can’t speak for Trackmasters symbols, but check this date. Race-9 better have a notation, or may I suggest…sacking Trackmaster. (With all due respect)
Trk Date Race Dist About
KEE 10/8/2008 1 7
KEE 10/8/2008 3 7
KEE 10/8/2008 8 7
KEE 10/8/2008 9 7 Y
Thx. Which data provider do you use?
Thx. Which data provider do you use?
With apologies to the others in the industry…
The one…the only…HDW. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:
http://www.horsedata.com/
I know that DRF/BRIS/TSN all differentiate the distance by populating the about field.
The Hawk
10-13-2008, 05:24 PM
Hmmmmmm. A stupid distance is tradition.....but making it plastic-crap is OK.
Got it. :rolleyes:
So true.
You know, if you got a panel together, and they took ALL the evidence without knowing the relationship beforehand, they would very likely find that racetrack officials were trying to drive horseplayers out of their buildings. Like when builders use those shrill whistles to try to chase out rodents.
And, like the rodents, we keep coming back.
socantra
10-13-2008, 06:29 PM
So true.
You know, if you got a panel together, and they took ALL the evidence without knowing the relationship beforehand, they would very likely find that racetrack officials were trying to drive horseplayers out of their buildings. .
I think that the people who have been betting on 7.3 furlong races for the last 43 years (since 1965) without realizing it probably deserve whatever racetrack officials can do to them.
The Hawk
10-13-2008, 09:58 PM
This thread and the posts by some experienced players is a bit of surprise to me, since I figured anyone with enough interest in handicapping to have a database would have know of the "about" distance. It's not like it's new. But it's more of a surprise that any software would not differentiate between the two distances.
Going a step further: You guys using this software should make sure that they're separating the distances at those tracks that use temporary rails on the turf courses. Monmouth, for instance, uses rails out at 12, 24 and 36 feet for their turf course, and I believe they keep separate track records for each of those instances at 5f, a mile, 1 1/16 miles, 1 1/8 miles, etc. It's a big difference in distance.
I think that the people who have been betting on 7.3 furlong races for the last 43 years (since 1965) without realizing it probably deserve whatever racetrack officials can do to them.
Has anyone replied about TrackMaster? Do they call out about distances?
If not, you can't blame the user for not knowing. I don't play Kee, so I can't say if they do or not.
This thread and the posts by some experienced players is a bit of surprise to me, since I figured anyone with enough interest in handicapping to have a database would have know of the "about" distance. It's not like it's new. But it's more of a surprise that any software would not differentiate between the two distances.
It is a shock to me as well. Trackmaster have not answered me yet on the issue.
Going a step further: You guys using this software should make sure that they're separating the distances at those tracks that use temporary rails on the turf courses. Monmouth, for instance, uses rails out at 12, 24 and 36 feet for their turf course, and I believe they keep separate track records for each of those instances at 5f, a mile, 1 1/16 miles, 1 1/8 miles, etc. It's a big difference in distance.
Yes but in this case there is at least the DTV that will reflect this (as long as the the rails are in the same position for each turf race.
turns out that TM do have the ABOUT flag (but only in the results)
are there any other tracks which have two identical but different distances (same surface)?
Every time a turf course is tagged with the "about" label it is pretty much the same thing.
The Hawk
10-14-2008, 09:55 AM
Every time a turf course is tagged with the "about" label it is pretty much the same thing.
Really? Even with a difference of 24 feet (36 vs. 12 feet out)? I would think it's a big difference.
Really? Even with a difference of 24 feet (36 vs. 12 feet out)? I would think it's a big difference.
I was answering gm10s post:
are there any other tracks which have two identical but different distances (same surface)?
I was saying that "about" turf can be as different as the two "7f" distances of Keeneland.
Every time a turf course is tagged with the "about" label it is pretty much the same thing.
OK, but are there are more tracks who have "X furlongs" and "about X furlongs" races on the same surface?
btw I've re-run all my calculations and the DTV's come out beautifully now, and the speed ratings make much more sense
for example I had Hatta Ford's win down with a moderate rating whereas it obviously was more than moderate
after correcting the distance, it's much better
thx for all the feedback
The Hawk
10-14-2008, 08:17 PM
OK, but are there are more tracks who have "X furlongs" and "about X furlongs" races on the same surface?
Of course, there are a few that do this on the turf. I think Laurel has an "about" 1 1/16 mile distance on the dirt that they use. Not sure of the reason, or the configuration. Timonium may too, but I'm not sure of that one.
Cangamble
10-15-2008, 07:14 AM
Regarding Keeneland, the same horse on the same day would run 1:24 going 7 furlongs, and 1:26 4/5th going about 7 furlongs.
Cangamble
10-15-2008, 08:21 AM
OOPs. a horse that ran 1:24 will run 1:27 1/5th the same day.
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