NL MVP

[cj]

Doesn't it have to be C.C.? I can't imagine anyone has been more valuable to his team.

[DanG]

Doesn't it have to be C.C.? I can't imagine anyone has been more valuable to his team.
Ridiculous…

How many innings has CC impacted of the 1458 played / vs. what Albert Pujols has done with basically chopped liver staying in the race for 95% of the season for example.

[ghostyapper]

Ryan Howard gets my vote.

[cj]

Ridiculous…

How many innings has CC impacted of the 1458 played / vs. what Albert Pujols has done with basically chopped liver staying in the race for 95% of the season for example.

I'm pretty sure St Louis could have missed the playoffs without Pujols. No doubt Pujols is a great player, but St Louis hasn't really been in contention for a few months. Not only that, but almost every team has a first baseman that hits for a lot of power and drives in runs.

Normally I wouldn't even consider a pitcher. But not one ever has had the impact CC did after a mid season trade. Has any pitcher in the last 30 years had a second half like his, 11 and 2 with, in today's game, an insane 1.65 ERA?

[cj]

Ryan Howard gets my vote.

You could replace him with any of 10 first basemen in MLB and they probably still win the division.

Think of any player that may be an MVP candidate and ask yourself how many could have changed places and not hurt the team. Now ask that about CC. There isn't really a contest.

[ghostyapper]

You could replace him with any of 10 first basemen in MLB and they probably still win the division.


Thats crazy talk. He led the majors in hrs and rb's and batted .342 in september. And the phillies only won the division by 3 games.

[cj]

I know that. Doesn't that also mean if he didn't hit .230 the rest of the year they would have had a bigger lead heading into September?

[toetoe]

The GREAT Timmy Lincecum. :jump: .

[cj]

I'm not sure you can give MVP for keeping a team out of last. That said, he had a great year.

[ghostyapper]

I know that. Doesn't that also mean if he didn't hit .230 the rest of the year they would have had a bigger lead heading into September?

I'm not sure how this helps prove he is not the mvp. The fact remains in september, when everything was on the line, he was the best player in the league and led his team to a division title.

If you think there are 10 other first baseman that the phillies could have won the division with, you are sadly mistaken.

[cj]

I'm not sure how this helps prove he is not the mvp. The fact remains in september, when everything was on the line, he was the best player in the league and led his team to a division title.

If you think there are 10 other first baseman that the phillies could have won the division with, you are sadly mistaken.

You are obviously a Phillies fan.

250 power hitters are a dime a dozen.

It isn't the MVP of September, is it? Howard isn't even the best, or most valuable, player on his team.

[ghostyapper]

You are obviously a Phillies fan.

250 power hitters are a dime a dozen.

It isn't the MVP of September, is it? Howard isn't even the best, or most valuable, player on his team.

I'm not a phillies fan but not sure what that has to do with anything.

Theres a difference between a .250 power hitter and a .250 hitter with 48 hrs and 146 rbi's. Not the most valuable philly? Who is Utley with his 8 hr and 35 rbi after the break? Or Rollins with his 77 runs scored?

You started this thread claiming Sabathia was an mvp candidate, which is not unfair. But attacking howard like this is just stupid.

[Valuist]

MVP is a misnomer; it should just be Player of the Year and there wouldn't be the interpretation we have nowdays. IMO, pitchers have their MVP or Player of the Year in the Cy Young award.

[cj]

I'm not a phillies fan but not sure what that has to do with anything.

Theres a difference between a .250 power hitter and a .250 hitter with 48 hrs and 146 rbi's. Not the most valuable philly? Who is Utley with his 8 hr and 35 rbi after the break? Or Rollins with his 77 runs scored?

You started this thread claiming Sabathia was an mvp candidate, which is not unfair. But attacking howard like this is just stupid.

I'm not really attacking him. The first response I got was "ridiculous". Of course, I think that is a personal thing with the poster so I should have taken it as so.

Howard is certainly a candidate. I'm just saying I think C.C. is better and giving reasons why.

The "pitchers don't play enough innings" seems pretty silly to me. A 1st baseman or a center fielder is probably involved in fewer pitches per season than any good starting pitcher.

[Valuist]

As for Sabathia, I always thought it was strange that when a player is traded between leagues, you only see the stats for their new team. Sabathia was what, 11-2 for Milwaukee? Why not publish his full stats......I wonder if some ignorant Cy Young voters won't vote for him saying he only won 11 games.

Cliff Lee looks like a 1-20 shot to win the AL Cy Young (sorry, K-Rod)...imagine the Indians could have had both Cy Young winners on their staff for a good portion of the year and still couldn't make the playoffs.

[Bubbles]

My problem with Sabathia for MVP is that he won't win the Cy Young. It would look terrible if a pitcher deemed not the best at his position won the award for being the best at EVERY position. Plus, if you want to talk trade acquisitions for MVP, doesn't Manny Ramirez have to be in contention for how he shook up the Dodgers in the West?

I'd give it to Howard (even with his ugly .250 batting average). My ballot would probably go in this order.

First-place: Howard
Second: Albert Pujols
Third: David Wright (say what you will about the Mets, but his numbers (.304/33 HR/124 RBI/115 R/15 SB) are insanely good)
Fourth: Ryan Braun (would the Brewers have been anywhere CLOSE without him?)
Fifth: Hanley Ramirez (give credit to a 30/30 guy with a .301 average. Shame his RBI total was so low thanks to hitting leadoff)
Sixth: Chase Utley (had his typical 30 HR/100 RBI year, but Howard steals his votes)
Seventh: Carlos Delgado (very streaky, but he did what he could down the stretch for the Mets)
Eighth: Prince Fielder (he's good, but I consider Braun to be more instrumental to Milwaukee's success)
Ninth: Adam Dunn (all he did was crank out 40 homers. Scary thought: He only turns 29 this November and already has 278 big flies. Nobody says it, but he's probably this generation's Harmon Killebrew)
Tenth: Tim Lincecum (IMO, he's easily the Cy Young award winner. Shame he's not on a better team)

[njcurveball]

You could replace him with any of 10 first basemen in MLB and they probably still win the division.

.


With an opinion like this, I hope your horse racing information is better than your baseball information. :bang:

You must be a life long Brewers fan to even suggest Sabathia. But hey, we all deserve loyalty to our team, just don't drink and drive, ok? ;)

[njcurveball]

250 power hitters are a dime a dozen.

.

I look forward to seeing your list of a dozen 250 hitters with 40 home runs and 140 RBIs this year. :lol:

Now PLEASE just go enjoy yourself and tomorrow when you sober up, you can delete this insane posts. :D

[Valuist]

To me, MVP is about Player of the year and win/loss record can't be taken into account. There's too much reliance on other players when bringing Ws and Ls into effect. In basketball, its a bit different, since only 5 players are on the floor at a time.

My NL MVP candidates:
1. Pujols--not even close
2. Hanley Ramirez---a 30/30 guy who hit over .300
3. Matt Holiday
4. Lance Berkman
5. David Wright

My NL Cy Young candidates:
1. CC Sabathia
2. Tim Lincecum
3. Johan Santana
4. Edinson Volquez
5. Ryan Dempster

BTW, I see all this mention of Ryan Howard. If it was pay for performance, Howard wouldn't be in the same solar system as Pujols, let alone my other top 4.

[ghostyapper]

I wonder if some ignorant Cy Young voters won't vote for him saying he only won 11 games.


They only can consider his 11 wins in the nl. Remember its nl cy young, why should his al stats count?

[Valuist]

They only can consider his 11 wins in the nl. Remember its nl cy young, why should his al stats count?

I understand, and I think it could work against him. But other than Lincecum, who else could you give it to besides Sabathia? Santana? I think he won 16 games but that was in a full year while Sabathia basically played a half season for Milwaukee. There is some precedent, however, as the Indians traded Rick Sutcliffe to the Cubs in July of 84 and he ended up winning the NL Cy Young.

[JustRalph]

I gotta go with Cj on this one.

CC picked that team up on his back and pitched them into the playoffs.

you gotta admit, this is always a great argument every season...... :lol:
One of the few things I find interesting about baseball anymore..........

[Marshall Bennett]

When you drive in runs , batting avg. is meaningless . Add the home runs he's hit and the team he's on and Howard should be a shoe-in IMO .

[Valuist]

But driving in runs is obviously heavily dependent on the performance of your teammates. Here's Sagarins ratings for offensive efficiency, which project how many runs a player would produce if they were the only hitter. Interesting that Chipper Jones actually edged out Pujols. Ryan Howard limped in 32nd. He wasn't even the top "Ryan" in the National League.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nlb08.htm

I bet if you interviewed all the National League pitchers, almost all of them would rather face Howard than Pujols. There's more to hitting than home runs.

[cj]

I look forward to seeing your list of a dozen 250 hitters with 40 home runs and 140 RBIs this year. :lol:

Now PLEASE just go enjoy yourself and tomorrow when you sober up, you can delete this insane posts. :D

Of course they won't have the same number, but they will have better numbers in other categories. Others don't have Utley and Rollins hitting in front of the either.

Why the sober up comment?

[cj]

But driving in runs is obviously heavily dependent on the performance of your teammates. Here's Sagarins ratings for offensive efficiency, which project how many runs a player would produce if they were the only hitter. Interesting that Chipper Jones actually edged out Pujols. Ryan Howard limped in 32nd. He wasn't even the top "Ryan" in the National League.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nlb08.htm

I bet if you interviewed all the National League pitchers, almost all of them would rather face Howard than Pujols. There's more to hitting than home runs.

I posted the other before seeing this one, but it is exactly what I am talking about. I guess I should have another drink.

[Marshall Bennett]

But driving in runs is obviously heavily dependent on the performance of your teammates. Here's Sagarins ratings for offensive efficiency, which project how many runs a player would produce if they were the only hitter. Interesting that Chipper Jones actually edged out Pujols. Ryan Howard limped in 32nd. He wasn't even the top "Ryan" in the National League.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nlb08.htm

I bet if you interviewed all the National League pitchers, almost all of them would rather face Howard than Pujols. There's more to hitting than home runs.
On the other hand , how important is a .300 hitter if no one behind him does anything . I agree with you somewhat but not totally . I'd spend my buck on a guy I know will drive in 140 runs to a .300 hitter any day . In reality thats about 25 - 30 hits more than a .250 hitter in a season ., a .300 hitter that is , not a .375 hitter .

[DanG]

I'm not really attacking him. The first response I got was "ridiculous". Of course, I think that is a personal thing with the poster so I should have taken it as so.

PA; Mike;

I’m begging you for the ignore privilege.

It’s now coming back to me why I stopped posting here.

[cj]

It is actually very easy. Go to "Quick Links", "User Control Panel", then on the left side you will see "Buddy / Ignore Lists".

[Valuist]

On the other hand , how important is a .300 hitter if no one behind him does anything . I agree with you somewhat but not totally . I'd spend my buck on a guy I know will drive in 140 runs to a .300 hitter any day . In reality thats about 25 - 30 hits more than a .250 hitter in a season ., a .300 hitter that is , not a .375 hitter .

Here's the problem; you're not talking about a .300 hitter who hit 5 home runs. We're talking about a guy who hit .357 with 37 home runs and 44 doubles, not to mention in 14 less games. Those are Ted Williams type numbers; Howard put up Dave Kingman numbers. Despite hitting 48 home runs, Howard's slugging percentage was a full 100 pts below Pujols (.653 to .543), more than 100 pts below in on base percentage (.462 for Pujols and .339 for Howard) and obviously well over 100 pts below in OPS (1.114 to .881).

[cj]

Here's the problem; you're not talking about a .300 hitter who hit 5 home runs. We're talking about a guy who hit .357 with 37 home runs and 44 doubles, not to mention in 14 less games. Those are Ted Williams type numbers; Howard put up Dave Kingman numbers. Despite hitting 48 home runs, Howard's slugging percentage was a full 100 pts below Pujols (.653 to .543), more than 100 pts below in on base percentage (.462 for Pujols and .339 for Howard) and obviously well over 100 pts below in OPS (1.114 to .881).

Dave Kingman...great reference.

[JustRalph]

I heard Joe Nuxhall once say "When Dave Kingman swings, the air pressure changes in the next two counties"

[OTM Al]

As a young Cubs fan in the 70s I nearly came to tears when they acquired Dave Kingman....but back to topic.

The argument you are having is because some of you are wanting the award to go to the best player where as others want it to go to the one that is most valuable. The writers do this too of course.

With out a doubt Albert Pujoles is the best player in the NL. However, who was the most valuable this year? Well, that would either be CC or someone no one has said here, Manny Ramirez. Without either of those players, the respective teams would not have won, which is the standard basis, right or wrong, for this award. I would go with CC for the MVP and were there a best player award it would go to Albert.

[Marshall Bennett]

Here's the problem; you're not talking about a .300 hitter who hit 5 home runs. We're talking about a guy who hit .357 with 37 home runs and 44 doubles, not to mention in 14 less games. Those are Ted Williams type numbers; Howard put up Dave Kingman numbers. Despite hitting 48 home runs, Howard's slugging percentage was a full 100 pts below Pujols (.653 to .543), more than 100 pts below in on base percentage (.462 for Pujols and .339 for Howard) and obviously well over 100 pts below in OPS (1.114 to .881).
Yes but how " valuable " are those numbers in that the Phillies are in the playoffs and the St. Louis isn't ? Pujols will have better lifetime numbers , definately better of the two , but this year I like Howard's MVP chances .

[cj]

Yes but how " valuable " are those numbers in that the Phillies are in the playoffs and the St. Louis isn't ? Pujols will have better lifetime numbers , definately better of the two , but this year I like Howard's MVP chances .

If they switched teams, the Phillies win in a romp.

[Bubbles]

However, who was the most valuable this year? Well, that would either be CC or someone no one has said here, Manny Ramirez.

I say, I say, I say, I RESEMBLE that remark!!!

My problem with Sabathia for MVP is that he won't win the Cy Young. It would look terrible if a pitcher deemed not the best at his position won the award for being the best at EVERY position. Plus, if you want to talk trade acquisitions for MVP, doesn't Manny Ramirez have to be in contention for how he shook up the Dodgers in the West?

:D

[oddsmaven]

This is most valuable, not best season, so although Pujols may win since he clearly put up the best numbers, I would vote for Howard.

My rule of thumb is first look at the teams that made the playoffs including the wild card, though I'd prefer someone from a first place club. Then see if anyone on those teams stood out. Howard stood out with his power numbers and just as important, he played a huge role in their powerful finish with many crucial blasts. His average is low, he doesn't play a key position and he bats in a bandbox but none of those disqualify him; they just make it a closer call.

Since pitchers have their own award (Cy Young) I prefer not to take them unless none of the everyday players stood out, and though that is the case with the Cubs and other teams, it was not with the Phils. And certainly not a pitcher who only contributed a half year. If a hurler has one of those rare dominant years, ok, but not the case here.

Manny was valuable to the Dodgers but he was only there for two months. Perhaps if he turned them into a juggernaut instead of a team that barely staved off an 82-80 team, but I'd still probably pass on him for joining them late.

[OTM Al]

I say, I say, I say, I RESEMBLE that remark!!!



:D


Ok, missed that one.

Here's a question for you though. I know how we got regaled with how bad A-Rod was "in the clutch" this year as well as with some other NL candidates which I assume means 2 out, men in scoring position, as you posted a number on the AL thread for A-Rod. My question here is what is the lever on the numbers. By that I mean how much influence would have only 1 more hit made? I always find such stats highly suspicious without the raw data attached.

BTW I just saw a piece on ESPN.com that said CC led both leagues in shutouts this year. That's not total, that's totals in each league with which he earned in each league.

[ghostyapper]

CC was tied for the lead in the al with 7 others at 2.

[bettheoverlay]

If Howard wins the MVP would he be the first MVP to not have made the All-Star team? Having watched almost every Philly game this year, Howard was simply magnificent the second half and especially down the stretch with big hit after big hit. I think he is the only hitter in the majors with over 40 HRs and he almost hit 50 in an a yr in which HR avg fell to its lowest since 93. If you go by teams that made the playoffs Howard should win.

[OTM Al]

Yeah, but still he only had half a season and totalled 5....he had a fantastic year and pitched his last 3 on short rest. Just missed a go ahead homer yesterday too. Just hope there's something left of him for next year

[oddsmaven]

Here's a question for you though. I know how we got regaled with how bad A-Rod was "in the clutch" this year as well as with some other NL candidates which I assume means 2 out, men in scoring position, as you posted a number on the AL thread for A-Rod. My question here is what is the lever on the numbers. By that I mean how much influence would have only 1 more hit made? I always find such stats highly suspicious without the raw data attached.


I wouldn't assume two out, men in scoring position, helps determine clutch...as a yankee fan I've seen A-Rod during the past few years get tons of hits with men in scoring position when they were already ahead by plenty :mad: ...the more important the situation; tight game, critical game, the smaller he'd usually come up; he had a big year in 2007 but he certainly did his thing (pressing & choking) in the playoffs.

I'd like to know what a player's average was in games that were within a couple of runs in those situations...then you get a feel for how they respond to pressure.

[DanG]

It is actually very easy. Go to "Quick Links", "User Control Panel", then on the left side you will see "Buddy / Ignore Lists".
Thanks!

Didn’t think I could ignore a so-called ‘moderator. Consider it done.

--------------------
Update:
Like I thought…Can’t be done because you’re a ‘moderator. I would really appreciate if Mike could make an exception here. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[DanG]

I'd like to know what a player's average was in games that were within a couple of runs in those situations...then you get a feel for how they respond to pressure.
Outstanding point and overlooked by too many GM’s. :ThmbUp:

[cj]

I'm sure you could PM and ask him. Of course, you'd rather whine like a 3rd grader in public.

[njcurveball]

I'm sure you could PM and ask him. Of course, you'd rather whine like a 3rd grader in public.




Why the sober up comment? You just make yourself sound like an asshole.


Harness Lover? The Professor? And now a clown who picks a picture of a clown talking trash!

Tell you what, we can both Paypal Mike a $1,000 and if CC wins the MVP you keep it. I will take the guy who sucks so bad, Pujouls would have made the Phils win 100 games. And if that wasn't enough of a drunk comment, you are the clown who started the thread with Sabathia.

So what is your morning line on the award? The way you talk, Sabathia is 1-9 and Howard is 99-1, GREAT ODDS for you! We can Paypal the money any time.

I love taking money from drunks! :lol:

[cj]

Harness Lover? The Professor? And now a clown who picks a picture of a clown talking trash!

Tell you what, we can both Paypal Mike a $1,000 and if CC wins the MVP you keep it. I will take the guy who sucks so bad, Pujouls would have made the Phils win 100 games. And if that wasn't enough of a drunk comment, you are the clown who started the thread with Sabathia.

So what is your morning line on the award? The way you talk, Sabathia is 1-9 and Howard is 99-1, GREAT ODDS for you! We can Paypal the money any time.

I love taking money from drunks! :lol:

Did I ever say he would win? I said he should win. I know he won't, which is why I started the thread.

I rarely ever drink, by the way. I didn't think it was possible, but you managed to make yourself look like an even bigger ass than last time.

[DanG]

I'm sure you could PM and ask him. Of course, you'd rather whine like a 3rd grader in public.
3rd grader…now that hurts…I made it the 5th grade with honors btw. :jump:

I have PM’d him and asked btw. This forum is public, so I asked in public.

It’s only out of respect for Mike / this forum and 99% of the people in it that I would even bother. You’re a ‘moderator…make it happen and save us both the effort as we have nothing of substance to say to each other.

[cj]

3rd grader…now that hurts…I made it the 5th grade with honors btw. :jump:

I have PM’d him and asked btw. This forum is public, so I asked in public.

It’s only out of respect for Mike / this forum and 99% of the people in it that I would even bother. You’re a ‘moderator…make it happen and save us both the effort as we have nothing of substance to say to each other.

I don't have the ability to do so. I only delete spam or idiotic posts like your sidekick curveball was making.

I don't think I've ever been personal in my posts. You made comments about me being the reason you stopped posting just because I responded to your silly comment about athletes not getting injured in sneakers. Then you claim my first post in this thread was ridiculous. I doubt you use that if posting to anyone else here. While I realize the guy won't win, plenty in the sports media agree, so I don't think it was so ridiculous.

Ignore me if you like, I'll sleep fine. But try to get a little thicker skin. Life is too short to get all worked up by internet posts.

[DanG]

I don't have the ability to do so. I only delete spam or idiotic posts like your sidekick curveball was making.

I don't think I've ever been personal in my posts. You made comments about me being the reason you stopped posting just because I responded to your silly comment about athletes not getting injured in sneakers. Then you claim my first post in this thread was ridiculous. I doubt you use that if posting to anyone else here. While I realize the guy won't win, plenty in the sports media agree, so I don't think it was so ridiculous.

Ignore me if you like, I'll sleep fine. But try to get a little thicker skin. Life is too short to get all worked up by internet posts.
Oh brother…

“Ridiculous” is now personal, but when I use my time to write someone else you jump in and term it “silly” and that’s a ‘dignified response.

Sidekicks? :confused:, you giving advice on ‘thin skin while you’ve made avatars to slander men 3x your age.

I’ll give you what you so desperately need…the last word.

Enjoy…

[DanG]

My apologizes to the good people in this forum and to Mike who runs a terrific BBS. :blush:

Character flaw on my behalf; when I’m confronted with what I perceive as arrogance; I address it. Often too directly and sometimes without a shred of maturity as is evident here…always have and always will. Would much prefer to do it in person; but sometimes it comes out through a keyboard and not always how it was intended.

BTW-I: Will never claim to be a flavor for all as some of you have written me and called me every name in the book. However; I will say to the overwhelming majority of you; I would welcome you in my house and would be proud to call a friend. :ThmbUp:

BTW-II: Is it just me or has the ‘off topic forum really taken off in the last 6 months? It is one passionate election season and really has people firing both cannons! :eek:

[cj]

You clearly took silly as personal.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with regards to avatars. If anyone found it offensive, they didn't bother to mention it. I do know there are no men alive 3 times my age. I remember D Wayne Lukas was my avatar for a long time.

The fact you would even remember my avatars is a little creepy. For whatever reason, I get under your skin. Sorry. It is a message board. If you don't want me to respond to your posts, which I rarely do anyway, try the PM method.

Oh, and now I'm arrogant. Glad you know me so well. You are a phony. You use a fake apology to further try to denigrate me.

[DanG]

Nice,

Back on topic;

A player who impacts 17 games of a 162 game league as MVP is…ridiculous. And frankly; a little creepy. If you or a thousand writers say so I still have the same reaction.

It’s the same short term mentality that pollutes out Eclipse process when writers can only remember the last race. The same knee-jerk, ‘sound bite reaction that makes our political poll numbers bounce like a super ball.

Baseball MVP voters are notorious for forgetting what happens pre-all star break.

When a team loses and / or wins by one game we need to look at if the player went AWOL in the first two months because; last I checked they still count those games. This applies to Ryan Howard who is clearly the dominate force for the Phil’s, but he was not the 162 game MVP imo. This rational applies 10 fold to a player who didn’t even exist in the league until late July.

On the subject of short-term memory; watch how many AL rookie of the year votes are changed because the Rays Evan Longoria was hurt and the WS Ramirez hit a dramatic HR that is fresh in their minds. Out of sight / out of mind as the newspapers, and our 24 news cycles prove to us daily.

[cj]

This is a guess, but I would imagine on a pitch by pitch basis that a starting pitcher is involved in the same number of pitches as a regular position player.

[ghostyapper]

This is a guess, but I would imagine on a pitch by pitch basis that a starting pitcher is involved in the same number of pitches as a regular position player.

If you are referring to a starting pitchers pitches vs a position players plate appearance pitches then obviously the starting pitcher blows the position player away.

That still does not mean they are more or as valuable. They only play every 5 games.

[ghostyapper]

One thing that annoys the crap out of me with these awards is they don't announce them till the end of november. They think that will "extend the baseball season." What a stupid thought

Now is when we are interested in the awards, not in november. Football announces them right after the season is over.

[cj]

If you are referring to a starting pitchers pitches vs a position players plate appearance pitches then obviously the starting pitcher blows the position player away.

That still does not mean they are more or as valuable. They only play every 5 games.

I'm also talking about them in the field. Most of the time they just aren't doing anything. If games played were such a valuable stat, wouldn't relievers make as much or more than starters.

[oddsmaven]

There are unwritten laws in the voting...actually laws is too strong, but the way I see it is this.

The MVP is open to pitchers, but they are not preferred...not because they aren't as valuable but because they already have the other big award which is restricted to them...if they absolutely tower over the everyday guys, then it should be an exception whereas they deserve to sweep both awards.

To say that they are involved to a higher degree in the games they are in is certainly true but it's tough to quantify - especially in the manner argued here...someone who gets a key hit is doing a more difficult thing than retiring a batter, so you can't weigh it so overwhelmingly as by counting who dealt with each pitch.

Sabathia was very important but did not have the kind blow-away full year stats that I think is called for a pitcher to win...Pujols wouldn't quite be my pick but I expect him to win because his numbers were so superb, many will go with him...you can argue that he trumps anyone who helped propell his team into the playoffs...however I give Howard a slight nod over him...his power numbers were great and his team won...and I do consider performance during the september stretch drive to have more value than early season action...each game counts but the pressure is different, so I like Howard's huge finish which made him extremely valuable.

[Valuist]

It just seemed that the guy who had the best season used to win the award, then in the past 15 years or so, the word "valuable" brought in all kinds of interpretations (i.e. you can't win unless your team is in the playoffs, basically). Andre Dawson won the 1987 MVP on a last place team and deservedly so. Nowadays, he wouldn't even be top 5 for the award.

[cj]

Cecil Fielder and Cal Ripken also won on terrible teams if memory serves.

[ghostyapper]

I'm also talking about them in the field. Most of the time they just aren't doing anything. If games played were such a valuable stat, wouldn't relievers make as much or more than starters.

Well obviously when it comes to comparing relievers vs starters, innings pitched is a much better judge on the impact to a team.

[fiveouttasix]

Andre Dawson won in 87 on the last place Cubs.

[headhawg]

Andre Dawson won in 87 on the last place Cubs.And that is the perfect example of why MVP doesn't mean what I think it should mean. So if Dawson doesn't hit like he did that year as the most valuable sCrUB, they finish how much lower than last place exactly?

[ghostyapper]

And that is the perfect example of why MVP doesn't mean what I think it should mean. So if Dawson doesn't hit like he did that year as the most valuable sCrUB, they finish how much lower than last place exactly?

This is an argument I'll never understand. If Andre Dawson's presence meant 15 games to the cubs but Jack Clark's presence only meant 10 games to the first place cardinals, how is andre dawson not the mvp?

[Valuist]

And that is the perfect example of why MVP doesn't mean what I think it should mean. So if Dawson doesn't hit like he did that year as the most valuable sCrUB, they finish how much lower than last place exactly?

Let it go you bitter White Sox fan (am I being redundant there?). His HR/RBI were almost identical to Ryan Howard this year but he out hit him by over 35 pts.

[Valuist]

They just said Ryan Howard led all 1st baseman.....IN ERRORS.

[headhawg]

Let it go you bitter White Sox fan (am I being redundant there?). His HR/RBI were almost identical to Ryan Howard this year but he out hit him by over 35 pts.Not quite sure why all the venom but if you want to play it that way ok. I didn't compare Dawson with Howard, nor did I say that Howard should win the MVP. There are plenty of guys in the majors who can hit when there is no pressure. Not too much pressure when your team is in the cellar, a place the Cubs knew quite well.

BTW, I saw my Chicago team win the World Series in my lifetime. How about you?

Oh, and that loud cracking sound that you will hear in about a week and a half? That will be the sound of the Cub Nation's heart breaking once again, immediately followed by the tired refrain of "wait till next year." :lol:

And are you still blaming Bartman for 2003???

[skate]

The fact that Howard only hits 230 and has 150 rbis seems to me is a credit to him.

I'm saying that when he hits, Bingo, it counts.:eek:

[rrbauer]

Brad Lidge. Knee surgery during spring training. Perfect record in closing out save opportunities for the year. What's not to like?

[ghostyapper]

Brad Lidge. Knee surgery during spring training. Perfect record in closing out save opportunities for the year. What's not to like?

70 innings pitched?
The fact that the team already needs to have a lead for him have an impact?

[Marshall Bennett]

Phillies 4 - 3 / Dodgers
Rays 4 - 2 / Red Sox

[rrbauer]

70 innings pitched?
The fact that the team already needs to have a lead for him have an impact?

So, by definition, relief pitchers (closers in particular) are disqualified from being MVP?

[Valuist]

I'm not surprised Howard didn't win. Pujols had the better season.