Hidden Agenda at the Jockey Club

[slewis]

As many racing fans know, there are some sweeping changes taking place in racing regarding steroids, whip use, and the types of horse shoe every runner will race in.
My view, and most fans/ owners view, that steroids should be controlled if not banned altogether.

But in regards to the other two rule changes, both are ridiculous and trump decades of history and tradition.
After reviewing the Jockey Club's recent ban on toe grabs and mud calks, I did some research on my own. After all, one might ask if there is sufficient data to substantiate the claims regarding the serious dangers of these shoes (mud calks and toe grabs).
Since I race, bet and follow the NYRA circuit, and since shoe implementation is something I track closely, I knew I had much more expertise in this field then the Jockey Club could ever dream of.
So I compliled a study dating back to 2001, detailing the use of mud calks vs plain shod horses and whether they (calks) posed additional danger.
I knew they didn't, since I have a database, raced my own horses in them, and spoke to many trainers who use them. But I compiled the study to show race track management, and anyone else, when I heard rumors of the ban back in June.
I posted some of this data on another thread, and anyone interested can evalutate it, (see: Goodbye mud calks at Meadowlands.)
After much thought, I realized what was taking place here, that there might be a Hidden Agenda, and after archiving who the decision makers were in the implementation of this silly rule, I'm convinced I 've hit the nail on the head.

Let's look at the "Players" :

The Jockey Club Chairman : Ogden Phipps

The Jockey Club Saftey Committee Chairman: Stuart Janney

(the safety committee pushed through the rule changes regarding toe grabs and mud calks (1/4 inch bends will be next to go).

Phipps and Janney are cousins. (Janney's mother was Barbara Phipps Janney and his father bred and raced Ruffian)

Both Phipps and Janney race royally bred horses, primarily in NY and KY.

Both almost exclusively (if not exclusively) use Shug McGaughey as their trainer. McGaughey has been known to cry about cheating and "perceived" edges other trainers have, and has never raced a horse in mud calks because he "thinks" they may cause injury.

Janney succeded Phipps as the chaiman of Bessemer Trust, a powerful wealth management firm managing client assets with 5 MILLION DOLLAR MINIMUMS.

To virtually guarantee enforcement of THEIR rules, the Jockey Club is using "strong arm tactics", by threatening to take GRADED STATUS of any graded race at a track that does not comply with THEIR rules.

Both Phipps and Janney are powerful and influential members of the NYRA bd of Directors, and although I haven't checked, maybe members of the BD of Directors of other tracks as well.

These guys obviously epitomize the term "eliteist", and their actions are affirm it. They have abused their power and influence for their own good.
They have taken the Eight Belles tragedy (who was not wearing toe grabs, mud calks, and was steroid free) and put their own spin on it for their own private agenda and boost their racing program.

MANY TRAINERS and owners who I've consulted with on this issue all agree that they have changed the rules to suit THEIR racing philosophy and boost their chances of succeeding. Trainers who beat them often, who's horses race with mud calks, are often horses with inferior pedigrees, and it must come a huge disapointment to the elite.
(I suppose the next move might be to have a separate starting gate 100 yds closer to the finish line for their runners)

What is sad is that they claim to have studied data to support these changes but have not produced anything that can be reasonably substantiated or verified, especially in NY where they race most frequently.

[DanG]

I don’t quite follow the borderline character assassinations of the gentlemen you mentioned.

Because their stance is “equal footing” (excuse the poor pun) for race horses, you take it as a personal attack on your stables edge and / or belief system.

Your study aside; I’ve been around the game all my life and have heard MANY respected trainers speak to the risk of running horses in grabs. This isn’t some conspiracy against blacksmiths, it’s a real concern from people who happen to disagree with yourself / and yet; are just as passionate about our sport.

As far as being pro-whip (I assume from your opening paragraph) I couldn’t disagree more. It’s absolutely barbaric / counterproductive to the potential new fan and has zero place in the modern game imo.

Thanks for the interesting subject.

[slewis]

I don’t quite follow the borderline character assassinations of the gentlemen you mentioned.

Because their stance is “equal footing” (excuse the poor pun) for race horses, you take it as a personal attack on your stables edge and / or belief system.

Your study aside; I’ve been around the game all my life and have heard MANY respected trainers speak to the risk of running horses in grabs. This isn’t some conspiracy against blacksmiths, it’s a real concern from people who happen to disagree with yourself / and yet; are just as passionate about our sport.

As far as being pro-whip (I assume from your opening paragraph) I couldn’t disagree more. It’s absolutely barbaric / counterproductive to the potential new fan and has zero place in the modern game imo.

Thanks for the interesting subject.


Fine,

Just show legitimate stats and studies to substantiate these changes.
I've provided the mud calks data (and 1/4 inch bend data)
I know horses will race SOUNDER and I have stats to back it up.
You, yourself said you've "talked" to those that say grabs are dangerous, (I might make a case for toe grabs except they're so small they will only hurt a horse if they are hitting hard base, and if that should occur, racing should be cancelled that day)
I want proof and data and substantiation, dont you?

[saratoga guy]

The Thoroughbred Safety Committee was formed in 2008.

They based much of their work and decisions on the two Welfare and Safety of the Racehorse Summits that took place earlier.

The toe-grab issue was brought up in the first report issued by the Welfare and Safety of the Racehorse Summit in October 2006 -- well before the Thoroughbred Safety Committee was even formed.

That report (in pdf format) can be found here: http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/resources/WelfareSummit.pdf

It lists "Participants"... Phipps and/or Janney are not among them.

[toetoe]

slewis,

It sounds very plausible to me. I will watch closely to see whether it joins Astrodirt and global whining on the roster for the Hyper Bole.

With these gentlemen protecting the public, who will protect me from the protectors ?

[slewis]

I've provided in another thread a complete 8 yr study proving how horses wearing mud calks are LESS likely to break down then plain shod.

I've heard testimonials from some of the greatest trainers in the game, including Nick Zito and Allen Jerkens, who race 95 % of their dirt runners in Mud Calks.

Mack Miller used Mud calks, Woody Stephens won the Belmont with Danzig Connection wearing mud calks, as did Bobby Frankel, who uses them on occasion, with Empire Maker in his Belmont win.

This group is a who's who of hall of fame trainers. Each one will defend their use, (I've spoke to several personally).

What additional proof do you need??????

And if your foolish enough not to make the connection between Phipps and Janney and what they're motives are, your very very naive.

Of course I remember you have defended NYRA in the past so it wouldn't surprise me one bit if you either work for them, or have some association with the organization.
I've been shouting from the days of the franchise battle, my feelings that they are nothing more then an eliteist, rich boy club, interested in their own agenda, controling and dominating racing .

[Pace Cap'n]

Several decades ago Al Illich (!) referred to The Jockey Club as the most exclusive club on earth, as it was/is composed of twenty individuals who set the rules for all of horseracing. Does that remain the structure yet today?

[saratoga guy]

Of course I remember you have defended NYRA in the past so it wouldn't surprise me one bit if you either work for them, or have some association with the organization.

I'm assuming this is aimed at me -- Oy. What a lame way to try to knock an argument. And haven't I put this to bed already -- any number of times?!? I don't work for NYRA. Never have.

By your logic -- since you knocked NYRA during the franchise debate -- should we assume you work for one of the competing entities?

...Anyhow, I'm not necessarily supporting the ban on toe grabs. I just think your logic that it's some conspiracy by Phipps/Janney is far-fetched. And unnecessary -- if you have the facts to support your argument.

I'm not sure you do. The "study" you quote in the other thread could be flawed in a number of ways. For instance, it concentrates only on the NYRA circuit, and it could be argued that NY racing has higher class horses, better track maintenance, and horsemen with owners that offer more money for hoof care than other jurisdictions.

That said however, the Thoroughbred Safety Committee shoe and hoof recommenations from June 2008 (http://www.bloodhorse.com/pdf/Thoroughbred%20Safety%20Committee%20recommendation %20-%20Shoes%20final.pdf) are "based on published research" which the footnotes indicate is a magazine article from 1996. Which, to me anyway, also leaves some doubts about the strength of their conclusions as well.

I have no problem requiring facts to support drastic changes in the industry (I wrote about just that this summer: http://www.equidaily.com/bestbet/opinion/2008/080703.html) -- particularly in the frenzied atmosphere that gripped the racing game this spring.

And that -- the wild, knee-jerk reaction to the Eight Belles fatality -- is probably more to blame for these changes, warranted or not, than any conspiracy by Phipps and/or Janney.

[slewis]

Then you obviously missed my point regarding the "strong arm tactics" Janney and Phipps are imposing, YES get this straight, IMPOSING on all racetracks...
Do what WE say, or we'll take graded status away on ANY and EVERY graded race you run at your racetrack.

Now, do you really think if Barry Schwartz or Kenny Noe were CEO of NYRA they would get away with a threat like this? But what you fail to understand here is that PHIPPS RUNS NYRA now..... not Charlie Haywood, not Duncker, get it??

It's like hiring the wolf to guard the hen house.

I'll now address your statement regarding my study being flawed.

Yes, my study is at NYRA tracks. Dont give me BS regarding cost, better footware, blacksmiths, etc, because I race at other tracks and that's not a major issue.
If someone kept stats and a database like this at other tracks they would probably find, depending on how cheap the horses were that raced there, a similar percentage comparision, with the cheaper tracks having higher breakdown percentages then the major tracks.
After all, more risk is taken with a cheaper horse, (racing when not completly sound) then with a stakes horse. Agreed? (I know we all dont want to admit that, but it's true)
If ANY track is not safe, mud calks are NOT going make anymore a negative difference, unless a track is VERY HARD, like one of the studies (as you pointed out 1996, how ridiculous) was done I believe in California. Those tracks are rock hard out there. And guess what??? They now have Poly shit, which is a whole new problem.
The powers that be in this business SHOULD BE LOOKING AT MY STUDY VERY CAREFULLY. It can be validated VERY easily. The horses names were included in the study I presented to several trainers along with the dates the horses raced and the subsequent date they raced AFTER A DNF along with ALL shoe data.
If the powers that be in this sport were diligent, they would ask for MY COMPLETE DATABASE, and get vet records of the horses that DNF and check the problems from that point.
They can also do a RANDOM query of horses that wear mud calks, check the vet records, and see if there is a correlation of injury compared to plain shod horses.
But, you see my friend, (I got that from Mccain), they really dont want to, because they have an AGENDA. I would start posting trainers names who I've discussed this with, and they ALL agree on AGENDA.
So I'll ask you again, would Allen Jerkens, Bobby Frankel, Nick Zito, etc risk injury to TOP HORSES such as SKY BEAUTY, GhOSTZAPPER, EMPIRE MAKER, COMMENTATOR, ALBERT THE GREAT....shall I continue???
Oh and F Y I... I quickly did a Steeplechase study on horses VANNED OFF, not DNF, Vanned off, in the last 5 yrs at Saratoga.....
4.2% vanned off... (you dont van a horse off unless they are hurt)
That's about 700% greater chance then a flat runner....

Think the Grayson foundation will force Phipps and Janney to stop steeplechase racing next yr at the SPA????

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Your so gullible, you probably think they're doing a great job in Washington these days too!

[bettheoverlay]

I've heard testimonials from some of the greatest trainers in the game, including Nick Zito and Allen Jerkens, who race 95 % of their dirt runners in Mud Calks.


So are Zito and Jerkens and all the other prominent trainers you have mentioned protesting this ruling? Have they had anything to say about the ruling publically?

[Shenanigans]

These attacks (and they are attacks) on these prominent gentlemen in racing sounds like it is coming from someone that is extremely jealous of their achievements and positions in the industry. No where in the banning of these shoes does it specify that the Phipps and Janney horses are the only ones allowed to wear these shoes. There is no "agenda" to be had.
Shug McGaughey "thinks" that mud calks are not good for a horses leg but the fact that Frankel, Zito, and Jerkins "think" otherwise there is a conspiracy going on. I hate to break it to you Slewis, but none of those trainers train their horses the same. I promise you there are plenty subjects that they agree and disagree on how to train a horse.
This conspiracy is a product of the rumors milled about on the backside of a track or two and infused with just a tinsy insy bit of jealousy from Slewis.

[slewis]

So are Zito and Jerkens and all the other prominent trainers you have mentioned protesting this ruling? Have they had anything to say about the ruling publically?

Yes, they are up in arms.. but from what I'm being told they are getting the response of NYRA brass: "If we dont comply, they will take the graded status away of all graded races in NY, and we couldn't allow that".

Haywood has seen the study... he's discarded it.

But then, it is the opinion of many, myself included, he's in on and part of the gig.

Do you see the "game" that's being played here? Well thought out and all bases covered.

[slewis]

Several decades ago Al Illich (!) referred to The Jockey Club as the most exclusive club on earth, as it was/is composed of twenty individuals who set the rules for all of horseracing. Does that remain the structure yet today?



Go check it's board of directors and check the NYRA board and Keeneland board.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, they are up in arms.. but from what I'm being told they are getting the response of NYRA brass: "If we dont comply, they will take the graded status away of all graded races in NY, and we couldn't allow that".That's total and complete baloney.

Do you HONESTLY think for ONE SECOND Phipps or anyone remotely powerful and connected with NY racing would allow the graded status OF ALL GRADED RACES IN NY to be stripped away?

This is the most unbelievable thing I've read on this website in quite some time, and that's saying a lot!

[slewis]

PA,

You need to go back and read everything I posted VERY carefully because you obviously are missing something.

I'll give you a quick recap because I know your a busy guy....

Phipps and Janneyrun the Jockey Club , and head the Safety committee formed by the Jockey Club.

Phipps and Janney use the same trainer.

That trainer does not want to "risk" using mud calks on their horses, but feels horses perform better with them and feels their horses are racing with a "disadvantage".

Phipps runs racing in NY (NYRA)

Eight Belles breaks down.... congress calls for a "clean up".

Although Eight Belles is both Steroid free, and not wearing any kind of "traction shoe" as Janney calls them(which is in itself a hypocracy, after all, why would we want to shoe a horse to get better traction?), Phipps and Janney orchestrate sweeping reform. Including ban on steroids, whip use, and a ban on THE TYPES OF SHOES THEIR TRAINER WONT USE, but complains about others having an edge.... Mud calks and toe grabs.

They find a 12 yr old study done in California where the tracks are rock hard, to use as the criteria for banning shoes that have used and are used by some of the greatest trainers (old and young) in the history of the sport.

They, realizing that their is going to be an outcry from those trainers who race in these shoes, implement a rule at the JOckey Club to take graded status away if tracks fail to comply with their rules.
This gives ALL track management, at every track an out.....
They could easily say (as Charlie Haywood explained to a friend of mine who races 500 starters per year, some with trainers like Levine and Arroyo who race virtually every horse with calks). " We had no choice but to follow their (Jockey Club ) mandate, we can't have Graded Status taken away".

But Haywood does not run NYRA, Phipps does, the same guys IMPLEMENTING the changes are the same guys making the changes.
BUT, in this case, and in the case of MUD CALKS and toe grabs, it's to SUIT THEIR RACING AGENDA.

Look PA.. you know me and you know people their who know me......

I'm not saying you have to agree with this theory.. but anytime you want me to waltz you over to some of the trainers I've mentioned in posts on this thread and the other thread I posted (I hope you saw the 8 yr study of shoe injury I posted).. you let me know..I'll call your bluff in a second.. and they will tell you EXACTLY what I've posted.

Some of these guys are PISSED!!!!

[Ernie Dahlman]

PaceAdvantage,

Do you HONESTLY believe that the graded stakes committee would make such a threat without knowing what NYRA's response would be? Think of it: the Indiana Derby a graded stake and Belmont and Travers non-graded stakes. The breeders would not go for that in their sales catalog.
I've been told that NYRA actually did receive that same threat (on a different subject) when Mr. Noe was president. He handled it in his usual diplomatic manner and the threat was quickly taken back. The graded stakes committee would never be so stupid as to risk it's very existance on whether or not NY trainers were allowed to shoe their horses as they see fit.

Ernie

[Irish Boy]

Slewis: How DO you decide WHEN to use ALLCAPS and when to JUST right normally. IT seems kind of haphazard TO ME and VERY DIFFICULT TO read.

[saratoga guy]

Slewis, again, you make a good point that the toe-grab ban might be an over-reaction that isn't necessarily supported by the facts. But adding in the conspiracy theory simply doesn't help your case. Just look at this thread and see that a number of the posts are focused more on your accusations against Phipps and Janney rather than the problem you would like to see fixed.

And don't discount that you're bringing a bias of your own to the table -- ie, you clearly have spent many, many hours databasing shoe changes and this new rule takes a powerful weapon out of your handicapping arsenal. I don't blame you at all for being upset -- but it's something that could well be tainting your opinions in this matter.

Regardless, as stated earlier, I worried that the frenzied atmosphere after the Derby and the Congressional hearing could result in knee-jerk decisions -- which might, in fact, be worse than no decisions. This might be one of those. But I'm not sure how the finger-pointing helps your case any -- particularly if the cold hard facts regarding the shoes would stand up to scrutiny as you believe they would.

[saratoga guy]

I've been told that NYRA actually did receive that same threat (on a different subject) when Mr. Noe was president. He handled it in his usual diplomatic manner and the threat was quickly taken back.


Assuming that's true -- you have to acknowledge that the furor surrounding the sport this spring was quite unique, making it nearly impossible to assume anything would have happened differently under different management.

[Indulto]

ED and slewis,

It appears that the proposed outlawing of certain types of shoes would eliminate an edge you both seem to enjoy. Do the two of you share your data?

Would such a ruling impact you more or less negatively than if the tracks were instead uniformly required to record that information and make it available to the general public for inclusion in past performances and programs just like blinkers?

Also, if the top trainers you mentioned use these shoes, why would trainers with less success resist following their example?

[slewis]

You can leave out the "necessarily" portion of their study, their findings are flawed and absurd.


As far as my conspiracy theory goes, you must think that I'm the only one on the planet that feels this way. You have failed to acknowledge that I mentioned discussions with many prominient trainers who feel exactly the same way.

Since you and others dont believe me, I invite you to Belmont park, meet with me, and I'll march you over to them.....

This is an open invite to anyone reading this because I am see all the signs of this agenda, and I'm not the only one. It has been cleverly engineered, with all bases covered and answers for each and every objection.

The question ahead is, do the horseman unite to change a rule which most know is BS, or are they fearful of retaliation.
Retaliation such as: " last meet you had 70 stalls, now you have 35."

Oh I forgot, NYRA would never do such a thing.

60 or 70 years of trainers using toe-grabs, mud calks, and bends and these guys are going to change history.... to suit their needs.

I know, we're seeing horses wearing calks snapping their legs off, breaking down left and right....

I put forth names of great horses that raced in them, with Hall of Fame trainers like Woody Stephens...

Sharpen up..

By the way.. How's about my study on steeplechase.. 4.5% of starters vanned off over the last 5 yrs at the spa.

Something like a 600 or 700% greater chance then flat racing.....

Where's the Jockey Club and Greyson on these stats?????

I know, it takes SOOOOOOO much work to archive the charts for 36 day meets over the last 5 or 10 yrs.......

The answer is, no it doesn't take much work, it just doesn't suit THEIR AGENDA !!!!!!!!!!

[slewis]

ED and slewis,

It appears that the proposed outlawing of certain types of shoes would eliminate an edge you both seem to enjoy. Do the two of you share your data?

Would such a ruling impact you more or less negatively than if the tracks were instead uniformly required to record that information and make it available to the general public for inclusion in past performances and programs just like blinkers?

Also, if the top trainers you mentioned use these shoes, why would trainers with less success resist following their example?

Thank you for all your updates and hard work on the franchise renewal.
It was sensational.

As I mentioned, I have spoken to trainers about mud calks and other shoes, etc. I'm sure after they speak (or maybe before), they ask their balcksmiths.
Blacksmith dont work for one trainer (most) , they have several clients. Trainers use several blacksmiths too. They too have opinions regarding safety of mud calks, and I've heard their evaluations. BUT, there can be only one criteria that should be used to impose a rule like this, and that is s STATISTICAL STUDY. There are no horses breaking down left and right wearing calks. The state vet euthanizes the animal on the track if need be. Do you think he's crying, "look, another snapped ankle with calks". If that were the cace , they's have been gone decades ago.
When smaller trainers ask me and then dont try mud calks, they don't believe. it's that simple. But that should be (and has been in the past) they're right to choose.

Now I'm going to peek, not open, but peek, in pandora's box.
When the detention barn was introduced in NY, who do you think was the main force behind it??????
Who do you think is the trainer and trainers who cry all the time and accuse everyone of cheating???
I predicted that the detention barn might hurt the claiming trainer, but the big boys, guys like Dutrow and Assmussen and Zito and McLaughlin, they are still on top of the game.
As the complainers with their multi-million dollar pedigrees that dont race up to expectations, well, they still think everyone is cheating.
After all, no one can breed better then they do, and no one can train better then their trainers do.
Um, the detention barn didn't work, what new rules can we enforce to level the playing field, or try to.
Can you see what's going on here at NYRA???

[DanG]

Um, the detention barn didn't work
Could not agree more Slew…

How many in form / clean animals have left their race in the detention barn freaking out…Pure speculation, but it does make a tough game tougher imo. :ThmbDown:

Blow it up…I will pay for the explosives.

[PaceAdvantage]

Look PA.. you know me and you know people their who know me......Hey, I'm on your side here. I have no problem with anything you've posted, plus I appreciate all the hard work that went into what you presented as statistical proof.

And now I realize what you were saying regarding the stripping away of graded status....thanks for the clarification.

[DanG]

After reviewing the Jockey Club's recent ban on toe grabs and mud calks, I did some research on my own. After all, one might ask if there is sufficient data to substantiate the claims regarding the serious dangers of these shoes (mud calks and toe grabs).

So I compliled a study dating back to 2001, detailing the use of mud calks vs plain shod horses and whether they (calks) posed additional danger.
I knew they didn't, since I have a database, raced my own horses in them, and spoke to many trainers who use them. But I compiled the study to show race track management, and anyone else, when I heard rumors of the ban back in June.

Live and learn;

When I first read your post I couldn’t disagree more and the more I learn of it...I was wrong.

Turfway article from the TB times: http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2009/February/10/No-breakdowns-in-more-than-month-at-Turfway.aspx

Portion of article ~ After the rash of breakdowns, several horsemen suggested allowing the use of toe grabs in the rear shoes to help the Thoroughbreds handle the surface better. The change was allowed and the use of the equipment has been tracked.

Peckham said not a single breakdown has occurred to a horse wearing rear toe grabs. He said rear toe grabs were added to about 25% of the horses after the change was approved for the current meeting. That number grew to about 50% halfway through the meet and on February 8, 72% of the horses had rear shoe toe grabs.

[slewis]

Live and learn;

When I first read your post I couldn’t disagree more and the more I learn of it...I was wrong.

Turfway article from the TB times: http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2009/February/10/No-breakdowns-in-more-than-month-at-Turfway.aspx


Thanks Dan.. You might want to read the recent thread "Have any changes been made to protect the horses" (if you haven't)

I briefly explain what a bowed tendon is and briefly explain my reasoning as to why toe grabs (and especially mud calks) DO NOT add risk to a horse bowing and in the case of mud calks, creates a more favorable angle to relieve pressure on a tendon.

[ralph_the_cat]

the least of concerns for a trainer are bowed tendons, they are more due to conformation than anything... its more about protecting the horse's suspensories and bones, mainly cannon/sesamoid... large toe grabs in the front end can cause horses serious problems, not to mention knock the horses coffin joint off, which can lead to chronic lameness, making a second career doubtful... The policy that Im aware of that lists the ruling for steriods includes a ban of toe grabs that exceed 2mm... 2mm or an outrim gets plenty of traction, and if you honestly believe running mud caulks is better up front then why dont all horses train in them?, have a horse train in mud caulks over a long period of time, it aint going to be pretty.... unless its a synthetic or turf surface, Im not aware of them making the rules for the back feet as well, the policy just states front feet... that said, the policy also states if you don't employ the new policy your graded status will be taken away...

-Slewis doubting the Jockey Club is pretty funny, the only organization out there that listens to outside sources in a way to make horse racing safer for the horse... not to mention spends millions of dollars a year in research on their own program.... In a sense, its the only thing horses have going for them... we might as well start complaining about the Make-a-wish foundation....

[Dinsdale Piranha]

This thread made me a little dizzy .. but something from an old article I read seemed to click.

Slewis is the guy who feeds Dahlman shoe info by phone.

[DanG]

You might want to read the recent thread "Have any changes been made to protect the horses" (if you haven't)

I haven’t read that one; I had a feeling I was covering old ground, thanks.

[bigmack]

Slewis is the guy who feeds Dahlman shoe info by phone.
Let me guess, you're the schmoe who sells cotton candy at the arcade?

[slewis]

the least of concerns for a trainer are bowed tendons, they are more due to conformation than anything... its more about protecting the horse's suspensories and bones, mainly cannon/sesamoid... large toe grabs in the front end can cause horses serious problems, not to mention knock the horses coffin joint off, which can lead to chronic lameness, making a second career doubtful... The policy that Im aware of that lists the ruling for steriods includes a ban of toe grabs that exceed 2mm... 2mm or an outrim gets plenty of traction, and if you honestly believe running mud caulks is better up front then why dont all horses train in them?, have a horse train in mud caulks over a long period of time, it aint going to be pretty.... unless its a synthetic or turf surface, Im not aware of them making the rules for the back feet as well, the policy just states front feet... that said, the policy also states if you don't employ the new policy your graded status will be taken away...

-Slewis doubting the Jockey Club is pretty funny, the only organization out there that listens to outside sources in a way to make horse racing safer for the horse... not to mention spends millions of dollars a year in research on their own program.... In a sense, its the only thing horses have going for them... we might as well start complaining about the Make-a-wish foundation....

Ralph,

I guess your one of these guys that believes everything you're told, and you'll shut up and like it that way. You're a sheep, a follower, you know yourself well.
You can't help it, it's in your genes.
Your great great great great grandfather stood on a corner telling everyone that if they sailed their vessels too far, they would fall off the end of the earth.
People like you are chumps. You go on believing everything Phipps and Janney, oopps, I mean the Jockey Club tell you... I'll base my beliefs on facts.

Fact: One of the greatest trainers of all time, Allen Jerkens, constantly TRAINED his horses in the same shoes they raced, Mud Calks with toe grabs.
Fact: Two of the greatest trainers of all time, Kiran McLaughlin and Nick Zito raced virtually ALL their horses in Mud calks and toes until this stupid ruling was shoved down everyone's throat in the disquise of "safety". Many of those horses train in those same shoes.
I posted REAL statistics............ What has anyone else in this industry posted? Some nonsense 10 yrs ago from California that can't be verified, and that took place on a rock hard racing surface??
Oh, wait, management at Turfway did a 360 on toes behind on their "ultra-safe" poly-shit track that was supposed to be so safe, then make an announcement how they haven't had a breakdown since.

Down the road the pressure will mount and Phipps and Janney will "modify" their rules that they forced upon racing for their personal good. Just let some time pass till they realize the following: their billion dollar breeding program isn't so great, they employ the most over rated trainer in NY, and mud calks and toe grabs aren't the only reasons they underachieve.

[the little guy]

At least now I know why my old girlfriend never came back from her sailing trip.

[DrugS]

Let me guess, you're the schmoe who sells cotton candy at the arcade?

Either that ....

or the Monty Python charchter that nails peoples heads to the floor.

[ralph_the_cat]

Ralph,

I guess your one of these guys that believes everything you're told, and you'll shut up and like it that way. You're a sheep, a follower, you know yourself well.
You can't help it, it's in your genes.
Your great great great great grandfather stood on a corner telling everyone that if they sailed their vessels too far, they would fall off the end of the earth.
People like you are chumps. You go on believing everything Phipps and Janney, oopps, I mean the Jockey Club tell you... I'll base my beliefs on facts.


no, Im not going to believe anything in the game unless I experience it myself or credible people tell me... I've had more success/experience in this game by the time I was 21 than you'll have your entire life... Fact, front toe grabs harm a horse more than help, fact, the policy states front feet toe grabs were banned ONLY, fact, you bring up information on the hind feet (?), fact, synthetic tracks asked for horsemen not use toe grabs or caulks because they think over time it could damage the track... fact, some like PID, and maybe TP now, permit it but ask horsemen to avoid them if possible.... fact, your head is so far up your ass you can see what you ate for dinner... enjoy your life, chump...

[slewis]

no, Im not going to believe anything in the game unless I experience it myself or credible people tell me... I've had more success/experience in this game by the time I was 21 than you'll have your entire life... Fact, front toe grabs harm a horse more than help, fact, the policy states front feet toe grabs were banned ONLY, fact, you bring up information on the hind feet (?), fact, synthetic tracks asked for horsemen not use toe grabs or caulks because they think over time it could damage the track... fact, some like PID, and maybe TP now, permit it but ask horsemen to avoid them if possible.... fact, your head is so far up your ass you can see what you ate for dinner... enjoy your life, chump...


Wow... hit a real sour spot... truth must hurt real badly.....

You gave a bunch of "facts" with nothing to substantiate them but your opinion.
I posted real data... with names of horses and trainers.

I guess your "successes" dwarf Jerkens, Stephens, Frankel, Dutrow, etc, as well...all of whom have used both calks and toe grabs... and not on cheap claimers. Stake runners. Horses that have won GR 1 races in those very dangerous toe grabs...

You have nothing...... you just follow the herd....

[DrugS]

I've had more success/experience in this game by the time I was 21 than you'll have your entire life.

Yet something as simple as understanding how figures are made trips you up. Go figure.

[Bruddah]

I have seen some real "food fights" on this board and have participated in some of them. However, this could be the Blue Ribbon prize winner, of them all.

Unfortunately, the combatants are some of the very most informed, experienced and knowledgable in this Sport. You all make solid debating points. Please don't make this thread a personal battle. To much good information is flowing from this discussion. If it remains at the debate level, many of us will learn, become educated and form our own enlightened opinion.

I believe this topic is important to all of us. Let's keep the personal comments to a minimum. We Posters tend to get a little nasty when we don't have a meaningful retort. I know, I have been a practitioner of the barb, myself. :blush:

Thanks to all of you guys for your opinions and facts. I have learned from your posts.

Best Regards to all
Bruddah

[Relwob Owner]

I have seen some real "food fights" on this board and have participated in some of them. However, this could be the Blue Ribbon prize winner, of them all.

Unfortunately, the combatants are some of the very most informed, esperienced and knowledgable in this Sport. You all make solid debating points. Please don't make this thread a personal battle. To much good information is flowing from this discussion. If it remains at the debate level, many of us will learn, become educated and form our own enlightened opinion.

I believe this topic is important to all of us. Let's keep the personal comments to a minimum. We Posters tend to get personal when we don't have a meaningful retort. I know, I have been a practitioner of the barb, myself. :blush:

Thanks to all of you guys for your opinions and facts. I have learned from your posts.

Best Regards to all
Bruddah


Well put-I dont know enough about the topic to have commented much- I will say this to Slewis-it is never easy to go against the tide and question the establishment. While I dont know enough about the topic to definitely say I agree, I do know that 98 percent of people in this business, including the "popular ones" will do what is in their interest. That is the point of your post and it makes perfect sense.

One thing I have noticed is the high presence of the "head in the sand types" and it is quite frustrating. Good research and good post

[slewis]

A quick story.. Swear it's 100% true....


When the jockey club came up with this ridiculous mandate back in August, I was looking at horses at Belmont. A vet at the track who also owns and breeds horses came over to me and told me how happy he was that they came up with this ruling. I asked him why? He said "because it messes horses up real badly.

Now he knows who I am, (we've chatted thousands of times) and we are pretty friendly. I of course, being somewhat arguementive, had a brief debate, then told him he should go back to vet school because he obviously hadn't learned anything. We had a laugh and he told me they really need to enforce this and to have QUEENS PLATE (flat) shoes ALL around, front and rear.
Again I argued how it helps horses and that hard tracks, bad conformation, blah blah are the reasons for injury.
In the last 10 days he won a stake race with a horse he owns wearing bends behind. EVERY HORSE he's run at this winter meet has run with bends behind.
I asked him about it... he laughed....
Hypocracy.... the new American way.....

[Tom]

So why is NYRA not enforcing the rules?

[the little guy]

So why is NYRA not enforcing the rules?

He's referring to bends behind. The rules are about caulks in front I believe.

[Tom]

Oh, thanks! My bad.

[ralph_the_cat]

He's referring to bends behind. The rules are about caulks in front I believe.

ding, ding, ding... his own rant doesnt even reflect the policy at hand...

[ralph_the_cat]

Yet something as simple as understanding how figures are made trips you up. Go figure.

???... you are a child...

-What have I ever stated about figures that made you think that?... you wont reply, because you can't... you used this "you dont understand figures" because I disagree with Beyers... I just wish you would act like an adult...

[ralph_the_cat]

Wow... hit a real sour spot... truth must hurt real badly.....

You gave a bunch of "facts" with nothing to substantiate them but your opinion.
I posted real data... with names of horses and trainers.

I guess your "successes" dwarf Jerkens, Stephens, Frankel, Dutrow, etc, as well...all of whom have used both calks and toe grabs... and not on cheap claimers. Stake runners. Horses that have won GR 1 races in those very dangerous toe grabs...

You have nothing...... you just follow the herd....

uhhh?... krist you clicked on that thread to reply at 9:30, I waited a few minutes and went to bed... a half hour later you come up with... "hit a sour spot"... "truth must hurt"... lol... get a life dude...

[slewis]

ding, ding, ding... his own rant doesnt even reflect the policy at hand...


No, his rant reflects the hypocracy at hand. But you haven't figured that out yet.

[DrugS]

uhhh?... krist you clicked on that thread to reply at 9:30, I waited a few minutes and went to bed... a half hour later you come up with... "hit a sour spot"... "truth must hurt"... lol... get a life dude...

"The adult" says what?

Ralph, I like you a lot ... as there is almost always some comedy gold to be mined from your paragraphs....

But sometimes people who post on boards at night - especially those who take betting seriously - are probably balancing their sad message board obsessions with other more important thing. For instance .. browsing a forum and posting while making figures, doing trip notes, reviewing result charts etc etc. - and sometimes they might be doing that for multiple boards at once.

[ralph_the_cat]

"The adult" says what?

Ralph, I like you a lot ... as there is almost always some comedy gold to be mined from your paragraphs....

But sometimes people who post on boards at night - especially those who take betting seriously - are probably balancing their sad message board obsessions with other more important thing. For instance .. browsing a forum and posting while making figures, doing trip notes, reviewing result charts etc etc. - and sometimes they might be doing that for multiple boards at once.

see, no where did you state the reasoning behind your comments about me not understanding Beyers... I question his numbers, and suddenly Im stupid and dont understand anything about numbers...

by the way, Nice post, the inner adult showed...

and thanks, I always enjoy keeping things serious yet funny...

[ralph_the_cat]

No, his rant reflects the hypocracy at hand. But you haven't figured that out yet.

I am truely glad you discovered the hipocracy at hand, as well as the first vet to ever legally own a race horse the past 20 years, not to mention hes a stakes winner, you have revealed lots of information... and Im sure its 100% true... your posts, if ever published, would be located some where between Clifford the Big Red Dog and Curious George...

Sincerely,

The Follower

[slewis]

I am truely glad you discovered the hipocracy at hand, as well as the first vet to ever legally own a race horse the past 20 years, not to mention hes a stakes winner, you have revealed lots of information... and Im sure its 100% true... your posts, if ever published, would be located some where between Clifford the Big Red Dog and Curious George...

Sincerely,

The Follower

Unlike others on this forum.. I dont hide behind my keyboard. I'm at the races every day and many on this forum know who I am.
I have the balls to tell it like it is regardless of whether people know me or not. It's my way.
I'd tell Phipps he's full of shit to his face if he approached me on this subject.
So if you doubt the validity of my story, prove me wrong.

With all your "successes" in this game, find someone who knows me and we'll bet on the vet story... I'll be more then glad to take your money.

Let me speak in a language more familiar to you :

BAAAAA.....BAAAAA

[PaceAdvantage]

I see my "no personal bs attacks" policy is humming right along...