Curlin - Jockey Gold Cup

[Anoniem]

I recorded the video and put it in a drop box if anyone wants to download and save it.

http://drop.io/curlingoldcup

Enjoy!

[MickJ26]

Was that one sweet race or what? That was worth getting soaked standing out in the rain all day for. If this doesn't demonstrate Curlin's greatness then nothing will, putting away a stubborn Wanderin Boy in deep stretch. Almost makes me wish he was a gelding so I could watch him for a few more years. I feel priviledged to have seen him race. Thank you, Mr. Jackson.

[Burls]

Was that one sweet race or what? That was worth getting soaked standing out in the rain all day for. If this doesn't demonstrate Curlin's greatness then nothing will, putting away a stubborn Wanderin Boy in deep stretch. Almost makes me wish he was a gelding so I could watch him for a few more years. I feel priviledged to have seen him race. Thank you, Mr. Jackson.

I also liked the fact the RA was just going with rein rhythm on Curlin while the other two jockeys were whipping away.

[kyle2227]

I hope they run him in the breeders cup classic after that great race.

[Pace Cap'n]

Yep, he really trounced those other grade-1 winners. Oh, wait...

[jognlope]

I hope he doesn't run in classic in a way. He needs a rest. But then maybe he's even greater than I dreamed!!

[kyle2227]

I hope he doesn't run in classic in a way. He needs a rest. But then maybe he's even greater than I dreamed!!

I say go Curlin and Big Brown let's see whos the best :)

[peakpros]

I also liked the fact the RA was just going with rein rhythm on Curlin while the other two jockeys were whipping away.


I agree...I think robby rode him very smartly in the stretch.

[OTM Al]

It was a very well measured and easy win. Just like the last race he did no more than necessary. He came back looking great.

[Primeaux]

Any chance we get a Curlin, Big Brown, Commentator BC Classic?

[tucker6]

I hope he doesn't run in classic in a way. He needs a rest. But then maybe he's even greater than I dreamed!!
No disrespect intended Jognlope, but I've never understood comments like this, so I'd like to start a discussion on it. Am I being unreasonable to ask a horse to run all out once a month for one and a quarter miles with intermittent training in between for 7 to 8 months??

My question is based on the fact that I'm old enough to have seen how they ran them in the 70's, when racing a horse was more frequent and breakdowns were fewer and everybody was happy. Should we blame breeding, training, or public awareness of breakdowns since the age of the internet started?

Tucker

[jonnielu]

Yep, he really trounced those other grade-1 winners. Oh, wait...

I like the way that he passed WB like he was standing still and hit the wire with the rest of the field back there by so many lengths. Once you understand that he is the greatest horse in the world... bar none, the race can look really different.

jdl

[098poi]

From DRF.

[Bobzilla]

No disrespect intended Jognlope, but I've never understood comments like this, so I'd like to start a discussion on it. Am I being unreasonable to ask a horse to run all out once a month for one and a quarter miles with intermittent training in between for 7 to 8 months??

My question is based on the fact that I'm old enough to have seen how they ran them in the 70's, when racing a horse was more frequent and breakdowns were fewer and everybody was happy. Should we blame breeding, training, or public awareness of breakdowns since the age of the internet started?

Tucker


I share your sentiment.

Clearly Curlin is not in dire need of rest after six races in 2008. Twenty or thirty years ago people would be questioning a schedule such as this. How could one "cycle up" with such a loose and sparse racing schedule?

An unfortunate reality of contemporary racing is once an animal earns black type and a reputation such as Curlin's, his value in the breeding shed far outweighs his value as a purse winner. Once a name is made the course of action quickly switches tracks to one overseen by the Actuaries rather than Sportsmen and Horsemen. Through normal fluctuations in form cycles, as well as the unique dynamics of every individual race, it's not uncommon for a superior animal to lose an event to inferior animals. An unexpected loss, though understandable and explainable for the more erudite handicapper, is probably uncomprehendable to most. So the risk of blemishing a reputation will also involve the risk of potential negative effects on syndication value. This along with the cost of insuring a future star stallion as he continues to risk catatrophe by training and competing results in a schedule such as we see with Curlin. It's sad. I'm only 45 and I'm already talking about how I miss the good ol' days.

[Charlie D]

Any chance we get a Curlin, Big Brown, Commentator BC Classic?

About an hour after the race, Barbara Banke, wife of owner Jess Jackson, said Curlin was to ship to Santa Anita on Sunday morning to begin getting acclimated to that track's new Pro-Ride synthetic surface. The Breeders' Cup Classic will be held at Santa Anita on Oct. 25


"We're thinking about it," Jackson said by phone, regarding the Breeders' Cup

I suppose it depends on how Curlin takes to Pro-Ride, but it looks like he may be on his way to Classic

[jognlope]

That would make me too nervous!!! Commentator reminds me of Curlin.

[cj's dad]

I saw a scroll on ESPN about 11:00PM EST last night which indicated he was running in the Classic

I suppose it depends on how Curlin takes to Pro-Ride, but it looks like he may be on his way to Classic

[ghostyapper]

earned a 111 beyer

[kyle2227]

I sure hope he runs in the classic. It's only a matter now of who is the best Curlin or Big Brown? The classic will tell.

[PaceAdvantage]

earned a 111 beyerCurlin certainly isn't putting up scary Beyer numbers, that's for sure....Cigar would have smoked his ass, and I've always (unfairly) resented Cigar because of what happened to Holy Bull (my boy) in the Donn...so for me to say that Cigar would smoke anyone's ass is really saying something.

And let's remember folks, any improvement by Big Brown and he's right up there with Curlin at the finish line. Plain and simple.

I'm thinking more and more that Big Brown and Curlin both get beat if anybody reasonable from Europe is entered in the BC Classic. And this is coming from a person who NEVER thinks a Euro is going to win a non-turf U.S. event....EVER.....

These weak speed figures that Curlin has put up this year completely cements in my mind that this horse is being way overrated, especially post-Dubai.

If Big Brown can get crucified because of the talent (or lack thereof) that he has faced this year, why is not the same criticism being thrown around more when it comes to Curlin? Who has he beaten lately? And it's not exactly like he's dominated anyone recently either....he was barely drawing away from Wanderin Boy on Saturday on a track condition he totally relished at Monmouth last year.

Sign me, underwhelmed.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

http://drop.io/curlingoldcup

Enjoy!Damn.... I thought I was linking to some breathtaking footage of Curling for an old cup! :lol:

[JustRalph]

Any chance we get a Curlin, Big Brown, Commentator BC Classic?

Looks like it is going to be these guys plus

Colonel john and Well Armed. Well Armed in the race, makes it very interesting if you ask me.................

[ghostyapper]

Curlin certainly isn't putting up scary Beyer numbers, that's for sure....Cigar would have smoked his ass, and I've always (unfairly) resented Cigar because of what happened to Holy Bull (my boy) in the Donn...so for me to say that Cigar would smoke anyone's ass is really saying something.

And let's remember folks, any improvement by Big Brown and he's right up there with Curlin at the finish line. Plain and simple.

I'm thinking more and more that Big Brown and Curlin both get beat if anybody reasonable from Europe is entered in the BC Classic. And this is coming from a person who NEVER thinks a Euro is going to win a non-turf U.S. event....EVER.....

These weak speed figures that Curlin has put up this year completely cements in my mind that this horse is being way overrated, especially post-Dubai.

If Big Brown can get crucified because of the talent (or lack thereof) that he has faced this year, why is not the same criticism being thrown around more when it comes to Curlin? Who has he beaten lately? And it's not exactly like he's dominated anyone recently either....he was barely drawing away from Wanderin Boy on Saturday on a track condition he totally relished at Monmouth last year.

Sign me, underwhelmed.

Well you never fail to disappoint, I'll give you that.

You can be impressed and convinced that BB is improving off a 1/2 length win in an upgraded turf face yet you are underwhelmed when Curlin wins the JCGC by a measured length without ever feeling the whip. Did you see the entire card saturday? Heavy favorites were falling like crazy in the stakes races. Curlin doesn't go with the trend but you are not impressed because he didn't win by a larger margin.

Again it is ridiculous to ask why Curlin is not met with the same criticism as BB as far as competition goes. In dubai, Curlin toyed with well armed. Have you seen well armed run since then? He looks like a top 3 horse in the country, better than Mr. Brown.

Mambo in seattle was the closest travers loser ever and that was the best 3yo field of the year thus far. He was 11 lengths back of Curlin.

Lets take a look at the last 2 horses BB defeated. Coal play is so good that his owners were only brave enough to run him in a nongraded 70k stakes race for 3yo, which he won. There's ringing endorsement.

At then theres proudinksy. The only horse he's come close to in his last 4 starts is BB. Another ringing endorsement.

And I was a big fan of Cigar but if you really think Cigar (at his peak) would have smoked Curlin, you are clueless.

[Stevie Belmont]

Here we go again with another senseless who would win...

Cigar or Curlin
Ghostzapper or Invasor

Who cares...It's fantasy and nobody knows anyway...It wastes brain energy, like this post.

[oddsmaven]

Certainly I'd be impressed if Curlin won by 10 lengths in scintillating time with a huge Beyer, but the fact that he didn't, doesn't give me any sort of a negative vibe...Forego was a deserved champion for a few years and almost always won by limited margins...in the Cup, Curlin looked like a winner turning for home and it never appeared in doubt...Big Brown on the other hand looked to be in all sorts of trouble when last seen on dirt before a desperate final surge.

[OTM Al]

Too bad you had to miss that one live PA because those of us there saw it as an easy performance where he did nothing more than what he needed to win. He was never asked seriously as there was no need to. I agree though he may well be up against it should he go to the BC, though I still am hoping he goes to Japan, though he could do both

[Stevie Belmont]

It's funny how some people need a beyer to validate Curlins win Saturday.

[classhandicapper]

I don't know, I think the best Curlin might be a hair better than the best Cigar (he certanly beat better horses), but I don't think Curlin has been has sharp recently as he was late last year and in Dubai etc... Obviously still very good though.

[cj's dad]

Class- I don't know if you attended but he looked absolutely unused as he returned to the winners circle.
I don't know, I think the best Curlin might be a hair better than the best Cigar (he certanly beat better horses), but I don't think Curlin has been has sharp recently as he was late last year and in Dubai etc... Obviously still very good though.

[Burls]

I think a Curlin vs Big Brown showdown in the BCC would be great for the sport.
It certainly wouldn't resolve any grand questions.
It's only a horse race.
For that matter, it wouldn't even definitively resolve the issue of which of the two horses is the better one.
But it would generate some real excitement and anticipation.
One of the two sides would be able to gloat and make 'I told you so' posts.
Then there's always the possibility that both of them would be beaten.
That would generate some mega exotic payoffs.
Then on Monday we go back to our day jobs. :(

[cj]

I think a Curlin vs Big Brown showdown in the BCC would be great for the sport.


I think it will be great too. It will show to those who pretend not to know it that synthetics are a joke and not anything like dirt tracks.

[classhandicapper]

Class- I don't know if you attended but he looked absolutely unused as he returned to the winners circle.

I saw the race while at OTB. :lol:

I don't want to take the conversation too far off topic, but I think that what you are suggesting is often the case when we are talking about elite horses with really superior records. There are often clues that the horse could do better if pressed or if it got a faster pace to track, but it's hard to be certain. That could be the case with Curlin.

Thanks. I'll watch the replay again.

[the little guy]

In my opinion, all the hype about Curlin these days just shows what a poor sense of racing history people have. In many of the years that I followed racing, starting in 1974, Curlin would have been an also ran in a good deal of the major stakes. He's a very nice horse, and I'm thrilled that he's racing, but he is simply nowhere near as good as he is being made out to be.

Cigar is another horse who's overall talent is still overrated, and if he had to face Skip Away and his racing cronies, he would never have compiled the record that he did. However, he would have won more than his share of matchups with Curlin. And Ghostzapper? He would have crushed Curlin like a grape.

[classhandicapper]

In my opinion, all the hype about Curlin these days just shows what a poor sense of racing history people have. In many of the years that I followed racing, starting in 1974, Curlin would have been an also ran in a good deal of the major stakes. He's a very nice horse, and I'm thrilled that he's racing, but he is simply nowhere near as good as he is being made out to be.

Cigar is another horse who's overall talent is still overrated, and if he had to face Skip Away and his racing cronies, he would never have compiled the record that he did. However, he would have won more than his share of matchups with Curlin. And Ghostzapper? He would have crushed Curlin like a grape.

I tend to agree with you, but these comparisons are always difficult because it depends on whether you are looking at a horse's best races, average race, best season, overall record etc...

Heck, I think Invasor was better than both of them, but he didn't get really good until the end. He was improving all season until he finally took down Bernadini (who went from overrated to underrated in a single race).

By the way, you said something on TV the other that enabled to me to cash a nice bet (can't even remember the specifics). THanks

[the little guy]

I tend to agree with you, but these comparisons are always difficult because it depends on whether you are looking at a horse's best races, average race, best season, overall record etc...

Heck, I think Invasor was better than both of them, but he didn't get really good until the end. He was improving all season until he finally took down Bernadini (who went from overrated to underrated in a single race).

By the way, you said something on TV the other that enabled to me to cash a nice bet (can't even remember the specifics). THanks


The highlighted part is the quote of the day ( if not year ). In some ways, it defines how poorly many people judge the top horses in general.

[joanied]

That would make me too nervous!!! Commentator reminds me of Curlin.

Remember, Zito hates the synthetic and has said he won't send any to the BC...but, I suppose he could change his mind...either way, IMHO, Commentator is a super nice horse... but not enough to make me nervous...
actually, the horses that'll make me nervous for both Curlin & BB in the Classic will be the Euro's...I beleive they are sending Henry the Navigator over...
and has anyone heard news about Casino Drive...he's sure staying under the radar.

[joanied]

It's funny how some people need a beyer to validate Curlins win Saturday.

I agree and I think folks put way too much into the beyers...
Curlin looked beautiful on Saturday...I don't think Robby touched him..just shook him up a bit, then sat still...
I see no reason to have pushed Curlin to win by more or get a higher beyer... and the important reason for not pushing him on Sat. is a no brainer...leave something in the tank.

[joanied]

Here we go again with another senseless who would win...

Cigar or Curlin
Ghostzapper or Invasor

Who cares...It's fantasy and nobody knows anyway...It wastes brain energy, like this post.

There ya go :ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

Remember, Zito hates the synthetic and has said he won't send any to the BC...but, I suppose he could change his mind...either way, IMHO, Commentator is a super nice horse... but not enough to make me nervous...
actually, the horses that'll make me nervous for both Curlin & BB in the Classic will be the Euro's...I beleive they are sending Henry the Navigator over...
and has anyone heard news about Casino Drive...he's sure staying under the radar.

Last I heard Casino Drive will race at SA one time in preparation for the Classic. I think they said it would be a very minor race. He looks like a very talented prospect, but that's a lot to ask.

[joanied]

Last I heard Casino Drive will race at SA one time in preparation for the Classic. I think they said it would be a very minor race. He looks like a very talented prospect, but that's a lot to ask.

Let's try and catch this minor race they'll run him in...I'm interested to see how he runs. he sure caught everyone's attention last time around...now it's all so low key...still having him in the Classic will add a bit more fun to the race...of course, it's the BB/Curlin showdown we're all looking for...the perfect stretch drive...BB & Curlin head and head :jump:

[PaceAdvantage]

And I was a big fan of Cigar but if you really think Cigar (at his peak) would have smoked Curlin, you are clueless.Cigar at his peak would absolutely destroy Curlin NOW.

Remember, I emphasized POST-DUBAI in my reply, did I not?

Regardless, Cigar was a better horse, in my opinion. The speed figures back me up on this one, although to be fair, and as CJ pointed out, Cigar did his best running as a 5yo.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's funny how some people need a beyer to validate Curlins win Saturday.I don't need a Beyer, but it sure would help. If I really did need a Beyer, I wouldn't be the resident Big Brown cheerleader on this board, now would I? (I don't consider myself a BB cheerleader, although I'm sure plenty of folks on here would disagree).

[Gorgeous George]

when henrythenavigator wins and win he will, how will all you bb and curlin fans live with yourselves knowing that for all the mouthing you's have done you's were both beat by the best horse in europe and soon to be the world.

[ghostyapper]

Cigar at his peak would absolutely destroy Curlin NOW.

Remember, I emphasized POST-DUBAI in my reply, did I not?

Regardless, Cigar was a better horse, in my opinion. The speed figures back me up on this one, although to be fair, and as CJ pointed out, Cigar did his best running as a 5yo.

Oh so now its "Cigar at his peak would smoke Curlin NOW." Very strange way to judge 2 horses, comparing 1 at his peak effort to one running in preps against overmatched rivals. How about Curlin of the BC and Dubai. You think that one gets smoked by Cigar? Better yet how about Curlin of BC and Dubai vs Cigar (not at his best) in Dubai? Who smokes who there? See how silly that comment is? I can guarantee you this, had Cigar run in both this year's woodward and JCGC, we would have seen a higher figure from Curlin. Its no surprise that Curlins highest figures of his career all came against the strongest fields he faced in his career.

But here's the most hypocritial part of your rant.

Curlins last 2 races 5-6 points lower than Cigar's norm. Your conclusion? Cigar would smoke Curlin

BB's last 2 races 5-6 points lower than Curlins last 2. Your conclusion? BB can compete with curlin, it will be a close race.

[ghostyapper]

when henrythenavigator wins and win he will, how will all you bb and curlin fans live with yourselves knowing that for all the mouthing you's have done you's were both beat by the best horse in europe and soon to be the world.

I guess we would feel the way you do now, having touted him as the best horse in europe and then he gets beat by ravens pass.

Oh wait, we wouldn't feel as bad as you do now since we have spent our time arguing who is better between BB and Curlin, not hendrythenavigator

[joanied]

I would like to post a little for Big Brown...I have been one of his 'cheerleaders', so in his defence, I am typing in what the Bloodhorse magazine said about the horses he beat in the Monmouth Stakes...
he fought off challaneges from 4 different horses
ran the 1 1/8th in 1:47.41 (Over a course rated as 'good')
ran his last 8th in 12:02
the horses he beat:
won a total of 19 stakes on turf, 12 graded
they earned, in those races, 4 million $$
thery also accounted for 4 course records
and in the gallop out, still would not let Proudinsky get by him.

Now...ya gotta admit...BB beat some very good horses...and I'm saying this because I think he's going to do just fine in the Classic...I am in hopes that he wins the Classic, but I know that Curlin, unless they decide he won't run well on Pro Ride, will be right there...and I AM scared of a few of the Euro's coming over...but have faith in our 2 American stars.
:)

[cj]

Proudinsky didn't look very good at all in his next race. He performance stunk so bad I could smell it in OKC.

[john del riccio]

CURLINS figs are reminding me of LAWYER Ron last year, they have regressing slowly each race. Even if this years BC wasn't on the fake stuff, I'd be inclined to take a shot against him.

John

[joanied]

Proudinsky didn't look very good at all in his next race. He performance stunk so bad I could smell it in OKC.

True, cj... but...his race in the Monmouth Stakes was very good, he would have won if not for BB...and my post is referring to that particular race. In fact in the MS, Frankel went out on a limb and said his horse would beat BB...NOT:jump:

[Indulto]

I tend to agree with you, but these comparisons are always difficult because it depends on whether you are looking at a horse's best races, average race, best season, overall record etc...

Heck, I think Invasor was better than both of them, but he didn't get really good until the end. He was improving all season until he finally took down Bernadini (who went from overrated to underrated in a single race).

By the way, you said something on TV the other that enabled to me to cash a nice bet (can't even remember the specifics). THanksThe highlighted part is the quote of the day ( if not year ). In some ways, it defines how poorly many people judge the top horses in general.How can they do a better job when only one race determines a divisional championship?

Interestingly, Wandering Boy finished second to both Bernardini and Curlin in the JCGC. Since Wandering Boy is a mudlark and Curlin only beat him by less than a length, what should we make of that?

I'm interested in seeing how Past the Point does in the Meadowlands Cup as perhaps that might tell us more about Curlin.

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh so now its "Cigar at his peak would smoke Curlin NOW." Very strange way to judge 2 horses, comparing 1 at his peak effort to one running in preps against overmatched rivals. How about Curlin of the BC and Dubai. You think that one gets smoked by Cigar? Better yet how about Curlin of BC and Dubai vs Cigar (not at his best) in Dubai? Who smokes who there? See how silly that comment is?Curlin in the BC was running over a super sloppy Monmouth strip...coincidentally, he earned his highest Beyer ever in that race (119), a figure he never approached before or since (no Beyers available for Dubai). His second highest Beyer is a 114, when he just got up to beat Lawyer Ron in last year's JCGC.

As I said in another thread Cigar ate 114s for breakfast. Cigar posted ELEVEN Beyers higher than 114 in his career, with 121 being his top.

I can guarantee you this, had Cigar run in both this year's woodward and JCGC, we would have seen a higher figure from Curlin.Reality rarely proves this theory out. Did Bernardini run a higher Beyer when faced with Invasor?

Maybe Curlin would simply lose...it's happened before....

But here's the most hypocritial part of your rant.

Curlins last 2 races 5-6 points lower than Cigar's norm. Your conclusion? Cigar would smoke Curlin

BB's last 2 races 5-6 points lower than Curlins last 2. Your conclusion? BB can compete with curlin, it will be a close race.It's not hypocritical at all. I've stated on this board MULTIPLE TIMES that I think Curlin is a better horse than Big Brown, and that Big Brown would need to IMPROVE to be in the photo with Curlin. You conveniently left that part out of your statement.

[Gorgeous George]

I guess we would feel the way you do now, having touted him as the best horse in europe and then he gets beat by ravens pass.

Oh wait, we wouldn't feel as bad as you do now since we have spent our time arguing who is better between BB and Curlin, not hendrythenavigator

i posted the comment after he was beat by ravens pass you moron, you dumb americans are arguing over who will win between bb and curlin but they wont be in the same race when one wins because henrythenavigator is winning the breeders cup and plus bb will retire at the end of the year. The only horse i have any respect for at the minute in america is commentator i have been very impressed by him. He would be our biggest danger. Curlin is way overated hes raced against poor opposition and made out to be hero..pathetic. BB i thought was going to be exceptional but he hasnt been the same since his injury so hes another lost cause.
Youtube these horses to see real superstars
Henrythenavigtor
Zarkava
Duke of Marmalade
Montematre
Mastercraftsman
Goldikova

[Bruddah]

to see those horses (any Euro's) lose simply to see old Gorgeous George take it on the chin. I hope he will have enough CLASS to come back and admit he was wrong, because he hasn't exhibited any, as yet.

This is why I am against Globalization of Horse racing (artificial turf). The arrogance and smugness of the Euro's is something I truly detest. Most want to act as if they are experts in the Queens Court, when in fact, most are no more than Cockney Cab Drivers. :D

[ghostyapper]

Curlin in the BC was running over a super sloppy Monmouth strip...coincidentally, he earned his highest Beyer ever in that race (119), a figure he never approached before or since (no Beyers available for Dubai). His second highest Beyer is a 114, when he just got up to beat Lawyer Ron in last year's JCGC.

As I said in another thread Cigar ate 114s for breakfast. Cigar posted ELEVEN Beyers higher than 114 in his career, with 121 being his top.

Reality rarely proves this theory out. Did Bernardini run a higher Beyer when faced with Invasor?

Maybe Curlin would simply lose...it's happened before....

It's not hypocritical at all. I've stated on this board MULTIPLE TIMES that I think Curlin is a better horse than Big Brown, and that Big Brown would need to IMPROVE to be in the photo with Curlin. You conveniently left that part out of your statement.

Ignoring the fact on how silly it is to use beyers alone to compare horses 10 years apart, you are just plain wrong. There was no beyer for the dubai race but you can't just ignore it like you seem to want to. He smoked 2 horses by over 7 lengths that were both running 106 figures in their prep races. His number would have been huge for that race.

Bernardini not running a better number against better competition does not mean curlin wouldn't. They are 2 different horses.

I will admit that Curlin has not looked as dominant since returning from dubai but you were just trying to disparage him with the "would get smoked" nonsense. Yes you have said Curlin looks like a better horse than BB (you'd have to be a fool to say otherwise) but how come I never heard you say "BB would get smoked by Curlin."? Instead you look for positives to say about BB and negatives about Curlin.

[ghostyapper]

to see those horses (any Euro's) lose simply to see old Gorgeous George take it on the chin. I hope he will have enough CLASS to come back and admit he was wrong, because he hasn't exhibited any, as yet.

This is why I am against Globalization of Horse racing (artificial turf). The arrogance and smugness of the Euro's is something I truly detest. Most want to act as if they are experts in the Queens Court, when in fact, most are no more than Cockney Cab Drivers. :D

I am sure our friends from across the pond will just disappear if henrythenavigator loses, like they did last year when dylan thomas flopped after they were hyping him for months.

[Charlie D]

i Curlin is way overated hes raced against poor opposition and made out to be hero..pathetic. BB i thought was going to be exceptional but he hasnt been the same since his injury so hes another lost cause.

You are understimating both horses imo


Youtube these horses to see real superstars
Henrythenavigtor
Zarkava
Duke of Marmalade
Montematre
Mastercraftsman
Goldikova


And you are definitely overestimating the above horses imo

[PaceAdvantage]

i posted the comment after he was beat by ravens pass you moron, you dumb americans are arguing over who will win between bb and curlin but they wont be in the same race when one wins because henrythenavigator is winning the breeders cup and plus bb will retire at the end of the year.Moron? Dumb Americans? Come on...you surely can do better than that!

[Gorgeous George]

to see those horses (any Euro's) lose simply to see old Gorgeous George take it on the chin. I hope he will have enough CLASS to come back and admit he was wrong, because he hasn't exhibited any, as yet.

This is why I am against Globalization of Horse racing (artificial turf). The arrogance and smugness of the Euro's is something I truly detest. Most want to act as if they are experts in the Queens Court, when in fact, most are no more than Cockney Cab Drivers. :D

For a start yank im irish, henrythenavigator is from ireland you plank. Im not being arrogant or smug im simply stating a fact. Ive seen all of henrythenavigators races all his career just like all of aiden o'briens horses i follow them religiously because there the best. He is one of the best milers ive seen since rock of gibraltar but in all of his races he looks like he can go further. His turn of pace is exceptional and he loves fast ground which he will get with this new surface. Both his last two defeats the soft surface didnt help and with johhny murtagh the best jockey in the world on board then theres only winner.

[Gorgeous George]

I am sure our friends from across the pond will just disappear if henrythenavigator loses, like they did last year when dylan thomas flopped after they were hyping him for months.

I will honestly hold my hands up if he loses but i dont think he will. But will all the curlin fans hold there hands up when hes beaten? I know the BB fans wont hold there hands up cos they always have an excuse!:D

[Gorgeous George]

Moron? Dumb Americans? Come on...you surely can do better than that!

Im not on here for a slagging match so end your posts concerning me, i have been discussing with ghostyapper and bruddah not you.

[PaceAdvantage]

Im not on here for a slagging match so end your posts concerning me, i have been discussing with ghostyapper and bruddah not you.Well, that's tough, because besides being a royal prick, I'm also the admin here. Your name calling along with your small number of posts doesn't sit well with me. Thus, you either become more civil, or you get the boot.

[Gorgeous George]

Well, that's tough, because besides being a royal prick, I'm also the admin here. Your name calling along with your small number of posts doesn't sit well with me. Thus, you either become more civil, or you get the boot.

i have been name calling the mentioned members who in turn have been naming calling me which i dont take any offense to. We are having a discussion between ourselves if you dont like that then you can boot me off.

[Gorgeous George]

And you are definitely overestimating the above horses imo[/QUOTE]

No way these horses are the cream of europe and are elite. Five of them are from the best horse-breeding country in the world IRELAND. I would like you to name five of America's current best horses this year for me to study.

[ghostyapper]

I know the BB fans wont hold there hands up cos they always have an excuse!:D

Both his last two defeats the soft surface didnt help

Looks like BB fans aren't the only ones who make excuses ;)

[YokohamaMary]

For a start yank im irish, henrythenavigator is from ireland you plank. Im not being arrogant or smug im simply stating a fact. Ive seen all of henrythenavigators races all his career just like all of aiden o'briens horses i follow them religiously because there the best. He is one of the best milers ive seen since rock of gibraltar but in all of his races he looks like he can go further. His turn of pace is exceptional and he loves fast ground which he will get with this new surface. Both his last two defeats the soft surface didnt help and with johhny murtagh the best jockey in the world on board then theres only winner.

Guys, Don't feed the Eurotrash!

And, Johnny M seriously needs to brush his dirty teeth.

But more seriously folks, it has been a long time since the Eurotrash had a horse they could be proud of (but it hasn't stopped them from trying). I welcome you backbacking Eurotrash to our shores for the races. Try to eat with your mouths closed and show some class for a change. Only then will you be welcomed back (and you might even learn something during your time in California). When you lose (and you will) we won't rub it in at all.

Toodle loo and have a great raceday!

[Gorgeous George]

Looks like BB fans aren't the only ones who make excuses ;)

thats not an excuse i said 'it didnt help', he was beaten fair and square by ravens pass. At least were honest when a horse is beaten BB fans blame everything from jockey tactics to injuries..pathetic.

[Gorgeous George]

Guys, Don't feed the Eurotrash!

And, Johnny M seriously needs to brush his dirty teeth.

But more seriously folks, it has been a long time since the Eurotrash had a horse they could be proud of (but it hasn't stopped them from trying). I welcome you backbacking Eurotrash to our shores for the races. Try to eat with your mouths closed and show some class for a change. Only then will you be welcomed back (and you might even learn something during your time in California). When you lose (and you will) we won't rub it in at all.

Toodle loo and have a great raceday!

try talking with your mouth and not your arse. We have the best horses in the world your lot wouldnt even touch our grade 1's. Wasin curlin beat by a european horse in the man 'o' war stakes red rocks??? Your coverage of racing is poor your jockeys are terrible and trainers dont even get me started, what do you call that prick that trains BB dutrow he's an absolute disgrace to racing. I wont go further and mention the doping culture in american racing....

[Backwheel]

Any chance we get a Curlin, Big Brown, Commentator BC Classic?


If they run Commentator in the Classic, and I don't think they will, but if they do Curlin will win by 5 in hand. Big Brown will go to the front and Commentator will push him and Curlin will pounce...Big Brown would be a well beaten 4th

[Charlie D]

And you are definitely overestimating the above horses imo

No way these horses are the cream of europe and are elite. Five of them are from the best horse-breeding country in the world IRELAND. I would like you to name five of America's current best horses this year for me to study.[/QUOTE]


Yes, they probably are the cream IN Europe, however, none have shown themselves to be Superstars yet and that is why i stated you are over estimating them and If you know anything about US racing you do not need me to tell you who the best US horses are

[Charlie D]

We have the best horses in the world

To be deemed "the best horses in World" i reckon you need to race against some of the best horses from around the World



Sacred Kingdom
Good Ba Ba
Jay Peg
Weekend Hustler
Zenyetta
Kip Deville
Go Between
Curlin
Big Brown
Well Armed
Proud Spell
Indian Blessing
Pass the Point
Music Note


Have any of your Euro superstars raced against any of these yet??

[cj's dad]

The Irish are the disgrace of Europe and the laughinstock of America.

Say goodnight Danny Boy.

Lighten up Mary :mad:

[eastie]

Proudinsky didn't look very good at all in his next race. He performance stunk so bad I could smell it in OKC.

it probably had a little to do with what BB did to him and that he was coming back way too fast.

[joanied]

Lighten up Mary :mad:

Everyone needs to lighten up :faint:
And...most of the best horses in Europe ARE American bred, George.
And...remember Tiznow...beat Euro's best...twice :jump:
And...I am a proud American, bred in Brooklyn...but I happen to be half Irish:eek:
:)

[cj's dad]

Hey PA - asleep at the wheel ??

[classhandicapper]

Everyone needs to lighten up
:)

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[cj's dad]

... I happen to be half Irish:eek:
:)

Me too joanied

[joanied]

Me too joanied

How about that...another good thing we have in common:ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

We are having a discussion between ourselves if you dont like that then you can boot me off.I'm sorry. I hadn't realized I had stumbled onto the private messaging section. My bad.

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey PA - asleep at the wheel ??No...just not able to be here 24/7 to babysit....

I'm awake now.

[Cratos]

In my opinion, all the hype about Curlin these days just shows what a poor sense of racing history people have. In many of the years that I followed racing, starting in 1974, Curlin would have been an also ran in a good deal of the major stakes. He's a very nice horse, and I'm thrilled that he's racing, but he is simply nowhere near as good as he is being made out to be.

Cigar is another horse who's overall talent is still overrated, and if he had to face Skip Away and his racing cronies, he would never have compiled the record that he did. However, he would have won more than his share of matchups with Curlin. And Ghostzapper? He would have crushed Curlin like a grape.

It is very difficult to compare horses from year to year let alone from decade to decade. Having said that, the Damascuses, Dr. Fagers and the rest of their generation would have been different today than they were 40 years ago and I realized that I might be synthesizing my assertions with antidotal evidence, but the game has changed so much that when you compare horses of different eras you are comparing apples to oranges.

For instance the Breeders’ Cup races and the Dubai World Cup has changed much of the thought process by which trainers and owners think about racing a horse 10-15 times per year and racing that horse until it is 4 or 5 years old as they did in the past. Also the synthetic surface is another major influence on how and where horses are raced today.

Therefore in my opinion if Curlin was being raced 40 years ago and being trained by a trainer like Frank Whiteley and ridden by a jockey with the skills of Willie Shoemaker he would have been as good or better than he is today because he would have been trained and bred under a totally different scheme than what we have today.

[Burls]

I happen to be half Irish:eek:
:)I'm half-Irish as well.
The Irish are always fighting amongst themselves because we have no other worthy opponents. :D

[YokohamaMary]

PS: My comment were out of line and that will be the last of this for me.


Have a nice day folks. Good bye.

[Bobzilla]

It is very difficult to compare horses from year to year let alone from decade to decade. Having said that, the Damascuses, Dr. Fagers and the rest of their generation would have been different today than they were 40 years ago and I realized that I might be synthesizing my assertions with antidotal evidence, but the game has changed so much that when you compare horses of different eras you are comparing apples to oranges.

For instance the Breeders’ Cup races and the Dubai World Cup has changed much of the thought process by which trainers and owners think about racing a horse 10-15 times per year and racing that horse until it is 4 or 5 years old as they did in the past. Also the synthetic surface is another major influence on how and where horses are raced today.

Therefore in my opinion if Curlin was being raced 40 years ago and being trained by a trainer like Frank Whiteley and ridden by a jockey with the skills of Willie Shoemaker he would have been as good or better than he is today because he would have been trained and bred under a totally different scheme than what we have today.


BULL's EYE !

I couldn't agree more, Cratos. Great Post !

[Gorgeous George]

You are understimating both horses imo





And you are definitely overestimating the above horses imo

You cant say zarkava isn't a superstar after her unbelievable performance yesterday!!!

[cj's dad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzXj9brWatU

[Charlie D]

You cant say zarkava isn't a superstar after her unbelievable performance yesterday!!!



Course i can and what was unbelivable about the performance? she had already shown she was a good horse in her previous races and that's why she was favourite

[Charlie D]

Makybe Diva became the only racehorse to have won the Melbourne Cup three times — and in successive years.

Makybe Diva probably deserves being called a Superstar



Afleet Alex being nearly brought down turning for home in Preakness and still going on to win easily

I'd probably call that an unbelievable performance



Get my drift george

[Gorgeous George]

Makybe Diva became the only racehorse to have won the Melbourne Cup three times — and in successive years.

Makybe Diva probably deserves being called a Superstar



Afleet Alex being nearly brought down turning for home in Preakness and still going on to win easily

I'd probably call that an unbelievable performance



Get my drift george

no i dont, zarkava is unbeaten in seven starts and won the best turf race in the world. She is a SUPERSTAR and would beat any turf horse in america.

[Bruddah]

You cant say zarkava isn't a superstar after her unbelievable performance yesterday!!!

Easy does it old Bloke!

One does not Crown a horse a Super Star (not even Curlin or Zarkava) until their careers are done and thoroughly scrutinized. If worthy, they will receive the mantel of Greatness.

I know it's difficult for you Brit's to refrain from going around and Crowning this and Knighting that. If a horse's career merits a Crown, they will receive it on a career of performances and merit.

Zarkava and Curlin, certainly have presented the case for future consideration, nothing more. :cool:

[Charlie D]

George


Horse has won the Top middle distance race in Europe, nothing more


Lets see Zarkava travel around World taking on Top horses in US, Japan, Hong Kong, Dubai, like Ouija Board, Pride, Alexander Goldrun, Miesque, Pebbles etc before claiming her a Superstar

[Gorgeous George]

Easy does it old Bloke!

One does not Crown a horse a Super Star (not even Curlin or Zarkava) until their careers are done and thoroughly scrutinized. If worthy, they will receive the mantel of Greatness.

I know it's difficult for you Brit's to refrain from going around and Crowning this and Knighting that. If a horse's career merits a Crown, they will receive it on a career of performances and merit.

Zarkava and Curlin, certainly have presented the case for future consideration, nothing more. :cool:

Once again im irish, i agree with you that after a horses career is over then they can be called a great but during thier careers a horse who wins great races ie zarkava the arc, curlin the dubai world cup, then they are superstars in thier sports.

[Gorgeous George]

George


Horse has won the Top middle distance race in Europe, nothing more


Lets see Zarkava travel around World taking on Top horses in US, Japan, Hong Kong, Dubai, like Ouija Board, Pride, Alexander Goldrun, Miesque, Pebbles etc before claiming her a Superstar

in europe she is a superstar, if the Highness Aga Khan keeps her in training then she will go on to become rated the highest ever. She will stay unbeaten and win the arc again. I dont think theres any turf horse in the world who could beat her over her distance and thats fact.

[Charlie D]

in europe she is a superstar, if the Highness Aga Khan keeps her in training then she will go on to become rated the highest ever. She will stay unbeaten and win the arc again. I dont think theres any turf horse in the world who could beat her over her distance and thats fact.


She won the Arc George, thats all, just like Dalakhani, Dylan Thomas,, Rail Link etc, etc

Similar statements to yours were made about horses like George Washington, Hiurricane Run, Deep Impact and no doubt there will be similar statements made again in the future

[cj's dad]

I seem to remember a 2 yr. old colt from across the way named Arazi who won the Breeders Juvenile and was declared a "superstar". Didn't work out quite well in the KD, eh mate !!
no i dont, zarkava is unbeaten in seven starts and won the best turf race in the world. She is a SUPERSTAR and would beat any turf horse in america.

[Gorgeous George]

I seem to remember a 2 yr. old colt from across the way named Arazi who won the Breeders Juvenile and was declared a "superstar". Didn't work out quite well in the KD, eh mate !!

Cj dad i dont know what you mean by that statement? Zarkava is a 3 year old filly not a 2 year old colt. im a little confused with where your going with this. Arazi truly was a superstar in his own right, he earned a rating of 135 as a two year old which was unheard of. He won the breeders juvenile in spectecular fashion and only for an injury he would have won the kentucky derby!!

[cj's dad]

I do know the difference between a filly and a colt. My reference was to the term "superstar" being used after 7 outings. She is very good and may well achieve the superstar status but can we hold off judgement just yet??

BTW- this is the first I've heard or remember that Arazi was "injured" at KD time. Pretty risky entry if true, don't you think?

[Gorgeous George]

I do know the difference between a filly and a colt. My reference was to the term "superstar" being used after 7 outings. She is very good and may well achieve the superstar status but can we hold off judgement just yet??

BTW- this is the first I've heard or remember that Arazi was "injured" at KD time. Pretty risky entry if true, don't you think?

He had surgery to remove chip fractures on his knees after the breeders cup and wasnt the same horse. During his two year old career he was a superstar. Zarkava during her 3 year old career is a superstar.

[cj's dad]

He had surgery to remove chip fractures on his knees after the breeders cup and wasnt the same horse. During his two year old career he was a superstar. Zarkava during her 3 year old career is a superstar.

So, let me understand- after surgery in November ?? he is trained for and is shipped to the USA for the KD where he promptly finishes 7th or 8th , and the injury ?? is the reason he didn't win. OK- I've got it GG- thanks for the clarification. Look, I was truly amazed at his run in the BC Juv. and was hoping that we had a new star in our sport; it just wasn't meant to be. Very good? yes; superstar ? IMO no!

No doubt, these are/were 2 very good horses; one didn't work out so well and the other is a work in progress.
The analogies to other sports stars early on in their careers that failed miserably after much hype are endless and I won't bore you with that but I as a horse racing fan would love to see her excel at the highest level. I am merely opining that she has a few more to win before she can climb that pedestal. She has not yet attained the level of a Michael Phelps or Babe Ruth but when she does I will be the first to acknowledge her brilliance.:ThmbUp:

[Gorgeous George]

So, let me understand- after surgery in November ?? he is trained for and is shipped to the USA for the KD where he promptly finishes 7th or 8th , and the injury ?? is the reason he didn't win. OK- I've got it GG- thanks for the clarification. Look, I was truly amazed at his run in the BC Juv. and was hoping that we had a new star in our sport; it just wasn't meant to be. Very good? yes; superstar ? IMO no!

No doubt, these are/were 2 very good horses; one didn't work out so well and the other is a work in progress.
The analogies to other sports stars early on in their careers that failed miserably after much hype are endless and I won't bore you with that but I as a horse racing fan would love to see her excel at the highest level. I am merely opining that she has a few more to win before she can climb that pedestal. She has not yet attained the level of a Michael Phelps or Babe Ruth but when she does I will be the first to acknowledge her brilliance.:ThmbUp:

Ok i understand your point of view and respect that. My opinion is that horses who excel in a season should be regarded as superstars for then who could we follow and support if we didn think they were. Im sure all the bb and curlin supporters on this forum view them as superstars for what they have achieved this season.

[jeebus1083]

It's always interesting to compare racing to different eras, and you're probably right that Curlin would have been crushed against some of these foes. However, it's only speculation and we'll never truly know, so these distinctions will remain the opinion of the poster or posters.

[Bubba X]

In my opinion, all the hype about Curlin these days just shows what a poor sense of racing history people have. In many of the years that I followed racing, starting in 1974, Curlin would have been an also ran in a good deal of the major stakes. He's a very nice horse, and I'm thrilled that he's racing, but he is simply nowhere near as good as he is being made out to be.

Cigar is another horse who's overall talent is still overrated, and if he had to face Skip Away and his racing cronies, he would never have compiled the record that he did. However, he would have won more than his share of matchups with Curlin. And Ghostzapper? He would have crushed Curlin like a grape.Maybe it's more "little" sense than "no" sense. Aside from the ones mentioned, a LOT of horses from 10-20 years ago would have been very competitve against Curlin. A horse like Bet Twice, for example, probably was superior to Curlin. But he really didn't get much consideration for an Eclipse Award simply because he wasn't the best of his generation as a 3yo and there were more accomplished horses his 4yo year. Aside from his many races vs Alysheba, he faced horses like Gulch and Cryptoclearance. Solid, quality horses, all of them. I'm sure there are many, many others.

[DanG]

As far as comparing era’s I agree with the challenges of doing that with any sport.

“Ghostzapper” is always a great test case in my eyes. NY / figure players have anointed this animal immortal status. If your saying at our “classic” 2-turn distances of 9-10f the Zapper would crush Curlin given equal ages?…I’ll bet Curlin every time as a 3yo.

Ghostzapper didn’t even attempt two turns until 8 months into his 4yo year and then it was vs. 4 in a Gr-3 rainstorm at Mth. Curlin at least should gain a little respect in that he was taking on his generation at classic distances while the Zapper was wowing figure makers sprinting.

"Two" 2-turn races & ducking all the 3yo classics does not = an immortal in my eyes regardless of clock measurements.

[ghostyapper]

"Two" 2-turn races & ducking all the 3yo classics does not = an immortal in my eyes regardless of clock measurements.

Thats like saying Cigar ducked the TC races. The horse was injured and Frankel didn't know what he had with him. You have to admit his BC was probably the best classic performance ever and it came against a great field in his first 10 furlong race.

[DanG]

Thats like saying Cigar ducked the TC races. The horse was injured and Frankel didn't know what he had with him. You have to admit his BC was probably the best classic performance ever and it came against a great field in his first 10 furlong race.
Agreed it was a terrific classic; but he still never had a single stone in his two turn path in his life. Unchallenged; W-W at Lone Star from the 1 box (1:11+ pace call) is not quite the adversity that makes us mold statues.

By your definition if ‘Frankel “didn’t know what he had” until the horses 56 month on the planet, I submit that’s further evidence he was over-rated. Horses who participate in that meat-grinder we call the TC chase deserve extra credit when the accolades are handed out. Especially an animal like Curlin who by any measure was rushed into it.

Having said that; there are many in the last decade I would bet against Curlin. I just never bought into the carefully managed Ghostzapper as a classic immortal.

Just an opioion no better then any other. These horse vs. horse discussion sure are more fun at closing time in a pub. :ThmbUp:

[Cratos]

As far as comparing era’s I agree with the challenges of doing that with any sport.

“Ghostzapper” is always a great test case in my eyes. NY / figure players have anointed this animal immortal status. If your saying at our “classic” 2-turn distances of 9-10f the Zapper would crush Curlin given equal ages?…I’ll bet Curlin every time as a 3yo.

Ghostzapper didn’t even attempt two turns until 8 months into his 4yo year and then it was vs. 4 in a Gr-3 rainstorm at Mth. Curlin at least should gain a little respect in that he was taking on his generation at classic distances while the Zapper was wowing figure makers sprinting.

"Two" 2-turn races & ducking all the 3yo classics does not = an immortal in my eyes regardless of clock measurements.
I agree with you and I am a diehard fan of both Ghostzapper and Curlin. However I will say up to 1 mile Ghostzapper is as good as they come and that includes Dr. Fager, Seattle Slew, and any other speedster of recent memory.

But when the distance is at 1 ¼ miles Curlin is a totally different animal as Secretariat was at 1 ½ miles. Curlin reminds me somewhat of the great Forego in that he gives just enough effort to get the job done and that in a word is class.

[DanG]

However I will say up to 1 mile Ghostzapper is as good as they come and that includes Dr. Fager, Seattle Slew, and any other speedster of recent memory.

Fair point;

We celebrate our Olympic sprinters much more then our distance runners, yet it’s almost viewed as a character flaw within horses. We ran a horse like “Groovy” in the Derby for goodness sakes when there is no shame in being a brilliant sprinter, miler or whatever.

One of the most striking things I noticed talking to players in Europe is they constantly refer to horses by their optimum distance. I think we got away from that in the 80’s with the hopped up sprint pedigrees running :45 splits and trying to bottom fields out.

One turn mile: It would be a very short recent list that could make Ghostzapper sweat. To me; 9-10f is Curlin’s optimum distance and the fact that they were even considering the 12f Arc while being noble…was bizarre imo.

BTW-I: I’m lucky enough to know a man who has seen the majority of champions and two horses in particular he talks about with awe… Dr. Fager and Phar Lap.

BTW-II: While Ghostzapper could hold his own with any miler, I would be glad to take Easy Goer in a one turn dream match up when they were both 3yo. :ThmbUp:

[Tom]

Good horses have their preferred distances. Great horses strep up and win where they need to, and they do it more than once. That said, we aren't talking about too many great horses here.

[Cratos]

Fair point;

We celebrate our Olympic sprinters much more then our distance runners, yet it’s almost viewed as a character flaw within horses. We ran a horse like “Groovy” in the Derby for goodness sakes when there is no shame in being a brilliant sprinter, miler or whatever.

One of the most striking things I noticed talking to players in Europe is they constantly refer to horses by their optimum distance. I think we got away from that in the 80’s with the hopped up sprint pedigrees running :45 splits and trying to bottom fields out.

One turn mile: It would be a very short recent list that could make Ghostzapper sweat. To me; 9-10f is Curlin’s optimum distance and the fact that they were even considering the 12f Arc while being noble…was bizarre imo.

BTW-I: I’m lucky enough to know a man who has seen the majority of champions and two horses in particular he talks about with awe… Dr. Fager and Phar Lap.

BTW-II: While Ghostzapper could hold his own with any miler, I would be glad to take Easy Goer in a one turn dream match up when they were both 3yo. :ThmbUp:

I wasn’t around to see the great Phar Lap, but I was there to see the great Dr. Fager in all of his NYRA starts of which the 1967 Woodward at Aqueduct and his final race in the 1968 Vosburgh with him toting 139 are the most memorable. I agree that Easy Goer and Ghostzapper would have probably given fans a race to remember if both had raced in the same race at 1 mile when they both were 3yos.

[Tom]

Unless Dr Fager was in the same mile race....then they would have both seen his arse, getting smaller and smaller.;):lol:

[plainolebill]

:lol: :ThmbUp: