The Bible & Future Events

[Investorater]

The Bible gives many details about the Antichrist.This list,presented by the late Dave Breese,is as thorough as any we've found on the "Man of Sin." We recommend a careful study of the Scriptures given here,for those who want a better understanding of the coming beast of Revelation 13..Profiling Antichrist:1.He will come presenting a great program of peace(Daniel 8:25).2.He will oppose Christ(Daniel 8:25).3.He will wear out the saints of God(Daniel 7:25).4.He will rule out of the area of the Old Roman Empire,which is present-day Europe(Dan.9:26).5.He will make a covenant with the nation of Israel.It is not until the middle of the Tribulation Period that satan fully moves in and terror and tragedy begin(Dan 9:27).(Luke 4:5-8).(Luke 22:3).6.He will break that covenant and persecute the Jews(Dan.9:27).7.He will pretend to be God himself(2 Thessalonians 2:4).8.He will occupy the rebuilt temple,the temple of God(Thess.2:4).9.He will perform the will of Satan(2 Thess.2:9).10.He will bring strong delusion to the whole world(2 Thess.2:11).11.He will be wounded to death,but he will recover,this is when satan makes his move(Revelation 13:14,15).12.He will blaspheme God(Rev.13:5,6).13.All of the world will worship him(Rev.13:8).14.He will be a miracle worker(Rev.13:13,14).15.He will set up his image that speaks like a man(Rev.13:14,15).16.He will cause every person to receive a mark(Rev.13:16).17.He will himself have a #666(Rev.13:18).[For me personally this simply represents man's numbering system or will it be a literal 666] Are You Rapture Ready? signs,prophecies,warnings,threats,and suspicions that the endtime is now Todd Strandberg & Terry James foreword by Tim Lahaye 2003.

[LottaKash]

The Bible gives many details about the Antichrist.This list,presented by the late Dave Breese,is as thorough as any we've found on the "Man of Sin." We recommend a careful study of the Scriptures given here,for those who want a better understanding of the coming beast of Revelation 13..Profiling Antichrist:1.He will come presenting a great program of peace(Daniel 8:25).2.He will oppose Christ(Daniel 8:25).3.He will wear out the saints of God(Daniel 7:25).4.He will rule out of the area of the Old Roman Empire,which is present-day Europe(Dan.9:26).5.He will make a covenant with the nation of Israel.It is not until the middle of the Tribulation Period that satan fully moves in and terror and tragedy begin(Dan 9:27).(Luke 4:5-8).(Luke 22:3).6.He will break that covenant and persecute the Jews(Dan.9:27).7.He will pretend to be God himself(2 Thessalonians 2:4).8.He will occupy the rebuilt temple,the temple of God(Thess.2:4).9.He will perform the will of Satan(2 Thess.2:9).10.He will bring strong delusion to the whole world(2 Thess.2:11).11.He will be wounded to death,but he will recover,this is when satan makes his move(Revelation 13:14,15).12.He will blaspheme God(Rev.13:5,6).13.All of the world will worship him(Rev.13:8).14.He will be a miracle worker(Rev.13:13,14).15.He will set up his image that speaks like a man(Rev.13:14,15).16.He will cause every person to receive a mark(Rev.13:16).17.He will himself have a #666(Rev.13:18).[For me personally this simply represents man's numbering system or will it be a literal 666] Are You Rapture Ready? signs,prophecies,warnings,threats,and suspicions that the endtime is now Todd Strandberg & Terry James foreword by Tim Lahaye 2003.


The time draws ever nearer, and it is quite evident to those would open their eyes and see......Signs and evidence abound throughout the world and yet most do not see or care to see......

best,

[Investorater]

Satan makes his appearance in the Old Testament as the accuser(Zech.3:1,2),tester(Job Chapters 1-2),and tempter(1 Chron.21:1)of people.But these three passages are the only ones in which he is mentioned by name in the Old Testament.He was first identified with the serpent of Genesis 3 and at least suggests that evil originated outside man himself..Arnold Rhodes..Luke 21:35..Matthew 24:24..Ephesians 6:10-17..Isaiah 25:7..Isaiah 30:28..Isaiah 28:17..2 Corinthians 11:14.."As the crowning act in the great drama of deception,satan himself will personate Christ.The church has long professed to look to the Savior's advent as the consummation of her hopes.Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come.Satan will manifest himself among people as a majestic being of dazzling brightness,resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation,Chapter 1:13-15.The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld.His voice is soft and subdued,yet full of melody. [One of the best singers of all-time in my opinion was the late Luther Vandross,I'd like to meet him in Heaven.] In gentle,compassionate tones he presents some of the same gracious,heavenly truths which the Saviour uttered.(2 Thess.2:8,9).These victorious ones will,by the grace of Christ,be keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12

[Investorater]

Todd Strandberg and Terry James,There are some things that Jesus indicated are worth escaping.We have looked at some of the things of the Tribulation era that are prophesied to occur.But this might be a good place to put them in a nutshell for quick review.It will literally be a time of hell on earth until eternal damnation for some.Following the Rapture of Christ's Church (all born-again believers who are alive at the time it occurs),prophesied things will start popping quickly.Each period will contain 7 specific judgements for a total of twenty-one,with each becoming progressively worse.These judgements will lead to the time at the end of Armageddon,when Christ Jesus will return from Heaven in glory and power to make all things on Earth right again.The disappearance of millions is a fading memory,as the changed world order is now approximately three and one-half years into post-Rapture history.God's judgements will begin to unfold in a stepped-up way from this point forward.The supposedly resurrected(Luke 22:3)world leader will soon begin his reign of unprecedented atrocities upon the Jewish race,and all who have genuinely converted to Christianity.The Greek prefix translated "anti",means "against" or "instead of"-either to oppose Christ openly or to subtlely overshadow him.Thess.2,verse 3 "Let no one deceive you,"says the apostle Paul.So deception is involved.No question about it.Evidently the antichrist results in a falling away,a gradual apostasy within the body of believers.Didn't Jesus Himself warn about deception-about a wolf in sheep's clothing?V.4,Dan.7:25,11:37,8:25,Daniel 7:9-14.......

[Investorater]

Matt.8:29,Acts 1:7,Matt.24:21,Mark 13:20,Rev.9:20,21,Rev.7:9,14,Proverbs 12:15,16:2,21:2 *Total chaos will rule for a time.*Governments will get control through sometimes harsh methods.*A one-world government will come together.*A one-world church will form.*A world leader will step to the forefront and take charge of the peace process.The Israeli government and Israel's enemies will sign an agreement of peace that ensures peace and safety.*Peace will not last,as a coalition of nations,led by Russia,will invade the Middle East.*God,himself,will destroy all but one-sixth of the invader forces.*Much of the world will be hit by the deadly effects of the invasion.This will possibly include chemical,biological,and nuclear aftereffects.*The world leader will solidify his power following the Russian-led coalition's destruction.*Two Old Testament-type prophets will come onto the world scene and preach about Christ,while condemning the world's evil.Meanwhile,God will put His protection upon 144,000 Jews who have converted to Christianity,so that they can begin to preach God's saving message to the people of the Tribulation.*At the same time,God will allow strong delusion to come over all who heard the Gospel before the Rapture but,fully understanding the offer of salvation,refused to accept Christ.These will believe Antichrist's,and Satan's,lies.*Antichrist,after months of trying,will finally murder the two Old Testament-type prophets.But they will come back to life and be taken into Heaven while the world watches.antichrist will receive a supposedly deadly head wound.*He will appear to resurrect from the dead,being now possessed by satan.*Antichrist will stand in the Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem.He will claim to be God,and demand worship.*The false prophet will direct all worship to Antichrist,and will erect an image of him.*Antichrist's regime will institute a computer mark and numbers system.It will be both to control the world's population and to cause all to worship antichrist,whose number in all of this is 666.*Those who refuse to accept Antichrist's mark will be murdered.Beheading will apparently be the regime's chosen method of offing these "traitors."*Antichrist will begin a systematic genocide against the Jewish race that will make Hitler's holocaust look mild by comparison.*He and the false prophet will also have all the new believers they can find rounded up,tortured,and then murdered.*While antichrist hunts down and murders people by the millions,God's judgements will begin to fall directly on the rebellious people of Planet Earth..The Antichrist spirit written about by John the apostle in 1 John 4:3 is alive and well today.Humanists have tried to do things their own way since the time of the Tower of Babel and even before.Man still attempts to push God off the planet.They want no one and nothing to rule over them.The Antichrist will appear at first to succeed at all he attempts.He will largely successful in gathering the wealth of the world into his treasuries.That wealth will be-as it is by dictators of our time-distributed to the elite who can help him accomplish his earth-enslaving goals.Soon after assuming full power,however,he will turn on even his most ardent supporters and assert his own prideful will.But he will soon meet his doom in total defeat and eternal destruction. (2 Thess.2:8)..The saints of God will share in the final defeat of the Antichrist when Jesus comes again..(Rev.19:14) (Rev.19:20) (Rev.20:10).

[OTM Al]

Investorater, I can see you are a person of great faith. This is why I encourage you to learn more about the actual historical times in which these things were written. This whole armageddon movement is barely 100 years old. It is not what was intended by these writers. I think if you looked deeply into these things and learn about the issues they were really writing about, you would be able to learn much and grow in your faith.

[Investorater]

John 17,Jesus Prays for Himself,Jesus Prays for His Disciples,Jesus Prays for All Believers,Hebrews 12:14,2 Corinthians 5:11,Heb.9:27,28,1 Peter 4:18,*Millions upon millions will die while God's wrath pours out in a series of three types of judgements,each consisting of 7 specific judgements,for a total of 21 judgements.*When all is said and done,more than 1/2,possibly as much as two-thirds,of all human life on Earth will die of the plagues.*God will prepare,and the Jewish remnant will flee to,a hiding place,probably Petra,the ancient city carved in the rose red-colored rocks of the Jordanian wilderness.*Antichrist and his forces,led by Satan,will pursue the Jewish people and try to murder them,but the pursuing forces will be swallowed up by the Earth.*While the Jewish and many of the Gentile people still alive remain safely protected,God's wrath will fall in greater force.*The sun will go partly dark,while at the same time heating up to seven times hotter than normal.*A great object will fall into the ocean from space.Its impact will kill life in the sea,and most likely will destroy coastal areas with tidal waves.*Another asteroid or other mass from space will strike Earth and will poison much of the planet's freshwater sources.*Great unprecedented earthquakes will happen simultaneously all over the Earth.*People will be so frightened they will have heart attacks,just from the things they see are yet to come.*A supernatural plague of huge insectlike creatures will be released from the abyss,and they will sting all who have the mark of the beast.*Men and women will try to commit suicide because of their great pain from the stings and bites of these demonic creatures.*God will then move in the minds of all military forces on Earth to gather in the valley of Jezreel,the plains of Esdraelon,near the city of Megiddo.*This is Armageddon.*The "Kings of the East," a huge army out of the Orient numbering more than 200 million troops,will invade to make war with Antichrist's and the other world forces.*Christ said of this time that if He didn't come back,everyone and everything would die because of the fighting about to take place.*Jesus will return with the armies of Heaven.His armies consist of the mighty angels and Jesus' Church,which was raptured at least 7 years earlier.*antichrist's armies and all others will try to prevent Christ's return.*Christ Jesus will simply speak,and all armies on Earth will be rendered helpless,most killed..From,Are You Rapture Ready?..Scary,scary stuff,huh? But it will all happen.You have God's Word,not ours,on that.A bunch of good reasons to be Rapture ready,and to be found worthy to stand before Jesus Christ,don't Cha think?

[Greyfox]

Let's see now. You wrote that "The Beast" will rule from Ancient Rome. (Not modern day "Rome")

Ahmadinejad has threatened to wipe out Israel. Nah. It can't be him. He doesn't live in Europe.

Obama is running on a platform of peace. Nah. It can't be him either. He doesn't live in Europe.

Maybe it's the Computer. Ever noticed that one of the logos has a bite out of it. Why is that? That bite in the apple has has me thinking.
Maybe the computer is going to rule, number us, and dehumanize us?
Why is there a bite out of that apple? Gotta be symbolic. ;)


http://www.katize.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/apple_computer_logosvg.png.

[Investorater]

(Revelation 22:17,20) (Matthew 25:12,13) (Rev.2:5) (Rev.3:14-16) (Titus 2:13)

(1 Corinthians 15:51,52) (Psalms 25:14) (Philippians 3:20) (2 Kings 2:1-11) (Genesis 5:21-24) (Jude 14,15) (1 Kings 17:1) (Rev.11:7-12) (Mark 13:24-27) (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) (Matt.24:29,30) (Matt.24:31) (Ezekiel 39:28) (Colossians 4:3) (Ephesians 5:32) (1 Corinthians 15:50,53-57) (Ephesians 2:6) (Romans 11:25) (Colossians 1:26,27) (1 John 1:7) (Hebrews 12:2) (John 11:25,26) (Matthew 24:21) (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) (John 14:18) (Hebrews 7:9,10) (Ephesians 4:8-16) (2 Kings 2:7) (Romans 5:6) (Romans 6:5) (John 15:4) (Ephesians 2:6) (John 15:6) (1 John 2:28,29) (Hebrews 12:12-17) (John 10:28) (Rev.7:9) (Rev.13:15) (Matt.24:40,41) (Ezekiel 39:4,5) (1 Thess.5:3) (Rev.11:8) (Revelation 18) (Luke 18:8) (Hebrews 3:7,8) (John 14:1-6)

[Greyfox]

Thank you for the response. I don't know what you've got but there must be a pill for it.

[LottaKash]

(Revelation 22:17,20) (Matthew 25:12,13) (Rev.2:5) (Rev.3:14-16) (Titus 2:13)

(1 Corinthians 15:51,52) (Psalms 25:14) (Philippians 3:20) (2 Kings 2:1-11) (Genesis 5:21-24) (Jude 14,15) (1 Kings 17:1) (Rev.11:7-12) (Mark 13:24-27) (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) (Matt.24:29,30) (Matt.24:31) (Ezekiel 39:28) (Colossians 4:3) (Ephesians 5:32) (1 Corinthians 15:50,53-57) (Ephesians 2:6) (Romans 11:25) (Colossians 1:26,27) (1 John 1:7) (Hebrews 12:2) (John 11:25,26) (Matthew 24:21) (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) (John 14:18) (Hebrews 7:9,10) (Ephesians 4:8-16) (2 Kings 2:7) (Romans 5:6) (Romans 6:5) (John 15:4) (Ephesians 2:6) (John 15:6) (1 John 2:28,29) (Hebrews 12:12-17) (John 10:28) (Rev.7:9) (Rev.13:15) (Matt.24:40,41) (Ezekiel 39:4,5) (1 Thess.5:3) (Rev.11:8) (Revelation 18) (Luke 18:8) (Hebrews 3:7,8) (John 14:1-6)


Please Simplify a little.....There are too many ezekiel's and ephesian's all at once....I think that your bombardment of information, wastes all of your sincere efforts, and perhaps relegates your solid scriptural messages to whimsical eccentrisities.........Simplify, puleze....

best,

best,

[hcap]

Maybe it's the Computer. Ever noticed that one of the logos has a bite out of it. Why is that? That bite in the apple has has me thinking.
Maybe the computer is going to rule, number us, and dehumanize us?
Why is there a bite out of that apple? Gotta be symbolic. Mr Investorator has already got that covered.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45231
The "Weekend Prayer" thread

The implication of this verse is that antichrist is exerting worldwide control.How is this possible without controlling the computers? Elsewhere we read that the antichrist's religious officer,the false prophet,".....had power to give life unto the image of the beast,that the image of the beast should both speak and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."(Revelation 13:15)

The only conceivable way for this to happen worldwide is through television and computers.TV stations worldwide are now gearing up for digital,computerized image acquisition and distribution.This will be implemented.Thus we see fulfillment of Bible prophecy now clearly possible.

The soul of internet will be the pulsing powerful entity called the image of the beast.As the living tool of antichrist,this huge and horrible instrument of death will direct all worship to antichrist and ultimately the devil.

[boxcar]

One thing I have to give to Dispensationalists is that their imaginations know no bounds. Their stuff is real Hollywood material.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

I thought I read once that in the Greek alphabet, WWW translates to 666 somehow....

Well, there you have it....the BEAST is the WORLD WIDE WEB...makes sense to me...:lol:

[barn32]

Bill Gates is the Antichrist.

[ddog]

i think p hilton is the one.

[ddog]

i actually looked at hcap quote and i have to admit , that "pulsing power of the beast" , sent a tingle down my leg for sure.

will they beam out the location of this beast, i need a thrill after they wiped out my shorts.

[boxcar]

i actually looked at hcap quote and i have to admit , that "pulsing power of the beast" , sent a tingle down my leg for sure.

Have you considered your need for some Depends?

will they beam out the location of this beast, i need a thrill after they wiped out my shorts.

I can fully understand your need for a "thrill". I suspect that your solitude and hermit-like existence was forced upon you because most people give you a very wide berth in real life.

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00398/peterbrookes385_398575a.jpg.

[ddog]

Have you considered your need for some Depends?




I can fully understand your need for a "thrill". I suspect that your solitude and hermit-like existence was forced upon you because most people give you a very wide berth in real life.

Boxcar



box- you need to step it up man, you can do better than this.
come on, break out your a game , you got a lot more there.

[Investorater]

Revelation 1:3 (special blessing)(Rev.3:10) Recorded for posterity,or those left behind.I'll be through before the 28th,unless I'm moved to post something else after then,ok,Mr.PA. The Bible & Future Events 1973 by Leon Wood (B.A.,Th.B.,ThM.,PhD.) is professor of Old Testament Studies and Dean of the Grand Rapids Baptist Bible Seminary.Educated at Calvin Theological Seminary with graduate studies in Israel through New York University and at the Oriental Institute,Chicago,he received the Ph.D degree from Michigan State University.He is also the author of Is The Rapture Next? Elijah,Prophet of God,A Survey of Israel's History,and A Commentary on Daniel..1..The Antichrist will be the final king of a restored form of the Roman empire..2..He will come to power at a time when a confederacy of ten rulers has already been formed,displacing three of these at the time.The remaining seven will then assist and support him as head ruler..3..He will come to power at the beginning of the tribulation period,providing a sign that it has begun.This will coincide with the time when the Holy Spirit ceases His work of restraining sin in the world..4..He will be a capable person with keen insight,but extremely boastful,even daring to blaspheme the name of God and to try to change basic laws..5..He will be empowered and controlled by Satan as no other person of history has been..6..He will be assisted by one called the False Prophet,who is also empowered and controlled by Satan..7..The False Prophet will be subordinate to the Antichrist and will cause people to worship this head of state,deceiving them by miracles wrought through power granted by Satan and forcing them to receive an identifying mark in order to buy and sell..8..The Antichrist will work through this False Prophet,the head of the false religion,to bring severe persecution on true saints,(All Believers),even bringing about martyrdom for many..9..Toward the close of the tribulation period,he will destroy the apostate church,for which he will then no longer have use.However,he will spare the False Prophet,who has been its head,apparently this one will show himself quite willing to disassociate himself from the false religion..10..The Antichrist will remain in power during all seven years of the tribulation,continuing to ascend in power for the first half of the period and exercising the height of this power for the last half,during which time he will enjoy worldwide authority in a real sense..11..Religiously,he will show his atheism by denying the existence of all gods and will assume the position of a god himself.He will call for people to worship him and will take a seat in the Temple of God in Jerusalem,after conquering the Holy Land..12..As the driving interest of his reign,he will make military strength his virtual god,especially during the years of his ascendancy in power.He will undertake offensive campaigns against opposing rulers and then will solicit the support of those rulers by distributing favors..13..His three biblical names are significant:little horn depicting him as a king,growing up among and displacing other kings,beast presenting him as possessing a ravaging,animallike nature,and man of sin,portraying him as given to,permitting,and advocating sin in the world,instead of exalting the finer virtues of life..14..His name,Antichrist,is significant,not only because he will be antagonistic to Christ and His righteous standards,but because he will be a substitute for Christ.He will be Satan's false claimant to world rule prior to the appearance of God's true Claimant,Jesus Christ..15..The Antichrist,the False Prophet,and the Roman empire will all be brought to an abrupt end by Christ when He comes in power as the Messiah-Deliverer of the nation of Israel,at the conclusion of the tribulation period..Unfolding the Revelation,revised,by,Roy Allan Anderson,1953,1961,1974,Chapter 13,pgs,122-134,Library of Congress Catalogue Card No.61-10884,Offset in U.S.A.

[Sailwolf]

http://www.fallwell.com/selective%20quotation.html

[hcap]

One thing I have to give to Dispensationalists is that their imaginations know no bounds. Their stuff is real Hollywood material.

BoxcarYou have had some "epic blockbusters" yourself. You never answered my question about how old do you think the universe is? Or commented on my response to your "fridge magnets defying gravity" silliness. It would seem to me your effort to throw Dispensationalism under the bus, might be a the perfect pot calling the perfect kettle black. BTW, do you think the story of the flood and Noah is literally true? I have asked you this many many times previously, but you are an expert at ducking biblical issues that conflict with the scientific consensus.

I would think if YOUR views were a bit more modern and not still stuck in the 15th century sun revolving around the earth,your apparent separation from Dispensationalism might be more believable. In fact, the real world comparison that comes to mind is is John McCain claiming a separation from his never mentioned twin brother GW Bush.

[boxcar]

You have had some "epic blockbusters" yourself. You never answered my question about how old do you think the universe is? Or commented on my response to your "fridge magnets defying gravity" silliness. It would seem to me your effort to throw Dispensationalism under the bus, might be a the perfect pot calling the perfect kettle black. BTW, do you think the story of the flood and Noah is literally true? I have asked you this many many times previously, but you are an expert at ducking biblical issues that conflict with the scientific consensus.

I would think if YOUR views were a bit more modern and not still stuck in the 15th century sun revolving around the earth,your apparent separation from Dispensationalism might be more believable. In fact, the real world comparison that comes to mind is is John McCain claiming a separation from his never mentioned twin brother GW Bush.

Hey, 'cap, you know what you and a fridge magnet have in common? Both get stuck on things. In the case of the magnet, it gets stuck to metal. But in your case, you get stuck on stupid. But that the fridge magnet can be freed from its surface; conversely, stupidity and you have this fatal attraction that just won't let go. You keep regurgitating this old stuff -- doing the same thing over and over and over, expecting different results. The definition of insanity, isn't it?

Instead of wasting your time with this, why don't you try doing something really productive with your life for a change? How 'bout parking yourself on the romp of an elephant for the purpose of tick picking? Methinks you would derive a great sense of accomplishment for once in your life. If not, though...I'm sure the elephant would be grateful, anyway.

Boxcar

[hcap]

You keep regurgitating this old stuff -- doing the same thing over and over and over, expecting different results. The definition of insanity, isn't it?Yep, asking you simple questions is bordering on insanity. No one is asking for a peer reviewed footnoted treatise. If it makes it any easier, consider your response a scientific sermon, without the Biblical references. :rolleyes:

You have criticized evolution repeatedly from a scientific point of view. To have any credibility using science requires an understanding of science.

You have erroneously suggested fridge magnets defy gravity. Obviously you know nothing of physics. Let's see what you know of geology and chemistry as well. How old is the earth? The universe?

Now you just called Investorator a Hollywood "maker upper", critical of his Dispensationalism. Implying you are not the same. Dispensationalism calls for many primitive scientific assumptions. You have had the opportunity many times to deny those similar outdated and quasi scientific assumptions.

I'm sure Investorator would-once he is willing to speak english-and not quote the Bible indiscriminately-claim the age of the universe is measured in thousands. ( Hey Investorator, you are welcome to comment in english )

So box, go scientific. No fridge magnets please. Or Biblical pronouncements.

[boxcar]

Like I said, 'cap, you're stuck on stupid and there just ain't no way to break free. Therefore, continue chasing your tail.

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

. ( Hey Investorator, you are welcome to comment in english )



In my opinion, asking Investorator to comment in English,
is like asking Mike Tyson to speak about valuing women's chastity.

[hcap]

Box, I've never known you to be a coward. If you answered in billions, you would end my supposition that you are very similar to Investorater and not a Dispensationalist. If you had answered the age of the earth and the universe is measured in thousands, you would then have the opportunity to SUPPORT your case. Why chicken out?

You were very forthcoming attacking evolution. Not only from a philosophical point of view, but assuming the mantle of science and pretending to know physics. And even said biology was not a "real" science. Like physics. But ironically then dropped the scientific ball and suggested magnetism defies gravity. How can you propose biology is false and physics real if you are ignorant of physics 101?

You went on and on about the human condition. That all of us are liars and deceivers. So? Isn't refusal to discuss these issues an attempt to deceive us? Actually you are deceiving yourself if you think you understand physics. Telling us fridge magnets do work clinging to a metal surface in defiance of gravity is naive

I would be happy to discuss carbon dating, radioactive half life, or electromagnetic theory. Or gravity. But be prepared. All those topics point to a universe measured in billions.

.................................................. ..........

Grey, just for the record, I am not an atheist
However, when I see a rigid hell and brimstone LITERAL interpretation of scripture, I feel great truths are being reduced to pablum. And to deny science can lead us to greater understanding as religion may, is foolish.

[boxcar]

Box, I've never known you to be a coward. If you answered in billions, you would end my supposition that you are very similar to Investorater and not a Dispensationalist. If you had answered the age of the earth and the universe is measured in thousands, you would then have the opportunity to SUPPORT your case. Why chicken out?

Since you believe there's a very close connection between Dispensationalism and the age of the earth, you should be directing your line of inquiry to Investorater, especially since I stated once on this formum (albeit a while back) what to what school of eschatology I subscribe.

You were very forthcoming attacking evolution. Not only from a philosophical point of view, but assuming the mantle of science and pretending to know physics. And even said biology was not a "real" science.

You see, this is why don't get into these discussions with you because you cannot be truthful. I never said what you claim. I said the theory of evolution is junk science. I never condemned any one scientific discipline.


You went on and on about the human condition. That all of us are liars and deceivers.

And you have just proved this point. Thank you.

So? Isn't refusal to discuss these issues an attempt to deceive us?

I don't think refusal to engage in a futile debate with you is tantamount to deception. Maybe in Fairly Land where you live, but not here in the real world.


I would be happy to discuss carbon dating, radioactive half life, or electromagnetic theory. Or gravity. But be prepared. All those topics point to a universe measured in billions.

And there are just as good, if not better, arguments on the other side of this issue. There are actually scientists who don't march lockstep with the funded science establishment. Lots of good websites are out there awaiting to be graced by your presence.

.................................................. ..........

Grey, just for the record, I am not an atheist
However, when I see a rigid hell and brimstone LITERAL interpretation of scripture

But I betcha you don't have a problem at all with literal interpretations when something tickles your ears, e.g. heaven and eternal blissfulness.

Gotta run. You bore me stiff.

Boxcar

[hcap]

Since you believe there's a very close connection between Dispensationalism and the age of the earth, you should be directing your line of inquiry to Investorater, especially since I stated once on this formum (albeit a while back) what to what school of eschatology I subscribe.Never answered the question about the age of the universe. No surprise. You can tell us again about your school. Put in some numbers while your at it.
I said the theory of evolution is junk science. I never condemned any one scientific discipline. You condemned biologyAnd there are just as good, if not better, arguments on the other side of this issue. There are actually scientists who don't march lockstep with the funded science establishment. Lots of good websites are out there awaiting to be graced by your presenceGeology, carbon dating, electromagnetism, and radioactive half life are all settled science, in that all point to the age of the universe in billions, not thousands of years
Grey, just for the record, I am not an atheist
However, when I see a rigid hell and brimstone LITERAL interpretation of scriptureI also continued I feel great truths are being reduced to pablum. And to deny science can lead us to greater understanding as religion may, is foolish.

Why not tell us the age of the universe? You are deceiving us box. If you were to tell us your real belief in this regard, you would not have a scientific leg to stand on. You know that and that is why you are deceiving us. Obviously.

At least be honest if not correct.

[boxcar]

' Cap, a long, long, long time ago, I stated on this forum in no uncertain terms that there is a strong biblical principle to which I subscribe: I don't cast pearls before swine -- in your case your brand of swinehood is lying. I don't debate the bible or any bible doctrine (including Creationism) with dishonest infidels. It's an exercise in futility. And you're as dishonest as the day is long. Now, if you want to brand me a deceiver for adhering to Christ's injunction in this matter, that's fine. Color me a deceiver then. Whatever floats your little boat in your tub...

Boxcar

[hcap]

Box,

Sounds like you are running from the very same beliefs posted without hypocrisy by Investorator. You are afraid to be known for what you really believe. Afraid to defend scientifically your 15th century quasi-scientific apologetic Biblical literal interpretations of cosmology, physics, and the universe.

I am not lying about my beliefs. I accept all sorts of ways of understanding the grand scale of the universe. Even the Bible and almost all sorts of traditions and religions. But I look deeper than you do. And I don't deny others their beliefs. Calling me a lying swine is your attempt at deceiving us. I have not lied, instead simply asked you to answer real questions.
You claim... "I don't cast pearls before swine -- in your case your brand of swinehood is lying. I don't debate the bible or any bible doctrine (including Creationism) with dishonest infidels."This may qualify as the biggest deception of your hoi poloi biblical posing career you have attempted yet!! Correct me if I am wrong-did not many of us, including your holy highness debate evolution vs creationism a few weeks ago?? You alone have been debating this stuff for years without anyone really asking you to do so. Box you have been busy as a bee casting all sorts of Biblical pronouncements from on high-your pearls of wisdom-before all of us for years. You jump all over anyone who shows the slightest degree of skepticism to your divine boxcarian gems. How dare you parade with pomp and circumstance now, wrapping yourself in holier-than-thou robes claiming the right to not debate the infidel rabble. A new level of pomposity, and sanctimonious hogwash from a Cotton Mather wannabee. You have out done yourself.

BTW,If your ego and hypocrisy could be quantified, it would be measured in billions not thousands.

On the other hand, you could always simply answer my questions without anger.

..............................................

CG it is enough to give him the rope to hang himself. He rarely remembers what he posts a few weeks earlier, and consequently is hoisted on his own petard.

[boxcar]

On the other hand, you could always simply answer my questions without anger.

Yawn! Anyone ever tell you how boring you are? About as much as a broken record. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[Cangamble]

Yawn! Anyone ever tell you how boring you are? About as much as a broken record. :rolleyes:

Boxcar
Actually, it is you who is extremely boring, disingenous, and evasive.

It is quite evident to everyone here that you are too embarrassed to share your beliefs about the age of the earth.

HCap is exposing you and you just don't like it.

[boxcar]

Actually, it is you who is extremely boring, disingenous, and evasive.

It is quite evident to everyone here that you are too embarrassed to share your beliefs about the age of the earth.

Well, you had your chance to find out where I stand when I asked my initial question to you in that other thread. But you didn't. Instead you linked us up to some boob-tube video that didn't even address the issue, but then claimed that the video answered my profound question fully when it didn't. So, look at yourself in the mirror before calling me disingenuous (note the proper spelling of this word, please -- even a 5 year-old would know the correct way).

HCap is exposing you and you just don't like it.

'Cap is a very sick puppy who has been obsessed with me and my stand on Creationism ever since I came on this forum -- which was back on '01. He's been badgering me on and off all these years. I feel sorry for him. This poor, pathetic, lost soul needs some professional help in a hurry. One day, I fear he's going to snap.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

'Cap is a very sick puppy who has been obsessed with me and my stand on Creationism ever since I came on this forum -- which was back on '01. He's been badgering me on and off all these years. I feel sorry for him. This poor, pathetic, lost soul needs some professional help in a hurry. One day, I fear he's going to snap.This whole rant right here....totally unnecessary. If you truly feel this way, hcap should have been on your ignore list a long time ago.

As I've said to hcap and others recently, I tire greatly of the name calling that is going on in abundance lately. I realize these are troubled times, but that doesn't mean we can't strive to keep discussions out of places where the only words that come to mind are boring and boring.

Thanks.

[Cangamble]

Seriously Boxcar, you are embarrassed to admit your beliefs. I would be too if I were you.

You can spin all you want. I did answer your questions, or at least (to the eyes of everyone here) gave it a best effort attempt. You made no attempt to answer any of my questions. Just like you are doing with HCap.

Yet you are ducking and dodging, and everyone here can see it.

OOOH, I left out a "u" in disingenuous. I guess that makes me a moron.
And yes, you fit the definiton of the word perfectly.

[boxcar]

Seriously Boxcar, you are embarrassed to admit your beliefs. I would be too if I were you.

No need projection. The truth is that your dullness is so think, you can't bring yourself to admit the intellectual bankruptcy of your world view of Materialism.

You can spin all you want. I did answer your questions, or at least (to the eyes of everyone here) gave it a best effort attempt. You made no attempt to answer any of my questions. Just like you are doing with HCap.

In your case, I made no attempt because your "best effort" only fell a trillion miles short of its mark. :rolleyes: One of your limb-hanging, banana-stuffing hairy ancestors would have done a more credible job, I believe. Your dumb video fell far short from answering my initial question to you in that other thread which was: How did these evolve -- the Organic from Inorganic, the Personal from the Impersonal, the Rational from the Irrational and the Moral from the Amoral?

Yet you are ducking and dodging, and everyone here can see it.

Tell you what, Mr. Wanna-be Intellectual Giant: Since you think your stupid video explained my question in terms that even a little child would be able to understand, then tell us in one sentence what the fundamental components to human existence are. Of what does human existence consists, in its most basic form? Surely, you must have gleaned the answer to this profound question from that video of yours. :rolleyes: But I must warn you in advance: The likelihood of you Googling the one correct answer is Slim and None, and Slim passed on many moons ago. ;)

You see, I can tell you what the fundamental components are to human existence and would be capable of making an excellent case for my argument from Special Revelation and from Natural Revelation (Reality as we know it) -- and do it in my own words and in such a straightforward manner that many children (at least the brighter ones) would actually be able to understand it.

(There's something to definitely be said for the scientific explanation of Occam's Razor, which is this:when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better.. Believe this: Mine is simpler and comprehensive. Can't beat this combo. But feel free, of course, to try.)

OOOH, I left out a "u" in disingenuous. I guess that makes me a moron.

Just remember, chimp (err...I mean chump), you said it; I didn't. (Although, if I had, I probably couldn't have said it better.) :D

Boxcar

[boxcar]

This whole rant right here....totally unnecessary. If you truly feel this way, hcap should have been on your ignore list a long time ago.

Just added truthful historic context for those who haven't been here all that long. Unnecessary? Perhaps. Truthful? Most definitely. If you don't believe it, PA, check the archives. I know what I wrote to 'cap and why I wrote it. But he, evidently, never got it.

Boxcar

[Cangamble]

tell us in one sentence what the fundamental components to human existence are.
*******************
Can't answer that in one sentence, or even in one chapter. But the video answered the question for those who watched it.

You have ducked and dodged such an easy question:
How old do you think the universe and earth is? It isn't a hard question. Everyone has an answer for it.

It is remarkable how embarrased you are to answer that question. And sad too.

I really need to put you on ignore. You are like a little baby, and I have yet to gain any knowledge from any of your posts. I did learn a lot researching your questions, as I'm sure many here did as well. So I guess you have some kind of tragic usefulness to society.

[Show Me the Wire]

Cangamble:

With all due respect, the video did not answer the question.

As been discussed to ad nuaseum, evolution does not address orgin, it only demonstrates that after orgin for a species to survive it has to adapt.

This thread has really drifted, maybe it is time for thread demise.

[Cangamble]

The last video I presented did answer the question. It showed how the brain evolved, etc.

It made a direct correlation between the brain's evolution and what makes us different than other non self aware animals, or those who are not as intelligent as us.

Besides, I at least tried to answer the question. Boxcar made no attempt to because he is obviously embarrrassed of his beliefs.

But again, I feel sorry for him. I really do. I don't know who he is trying to fool here. I really don't.

[boxcar]

The last video I presented did answer the question. It showed how the brain evolved, etc.

If you're any indication of evolution, I want that you should know that it didn't work with you. I guess it's back to the primordial gook for you. :D

Boxcar

[Tom]

This thread has really drifted, maybe it is time for thread demise.

That is a "Future Event" I saw coming! ;)

[Show Me the Wire]

The question is where did the brain come from. Where is the orgin? That is not answered in the video.

Evolution does not explain orgin, beginnings of life, it explains adaption once life began.

The video begs the question.

[melman]

Hcap writes "And to deny science can lead us to greater undertanding as religion may is foolish."
Robert Jastrow, head of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, envisions it this way:

[The scientist] has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries

the prominent British physicist P. T. Landsberg suddenly began to explore the theological implications of the scientific theory he was discussing. He observed,

To talk about the implications of science for theology at a scientific meeting seems to break a taboo. But those who think so are out of date. During the last 15 years, this taboo has been removed, and in talking about the interaction of science and theology, I am actually moving with a tide.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5355

[Cangamble]

The question is where did the brain come from. Where is the orgin? That is not answered in the video.

Evolution does not explain orgin, beginnings of life, it explains adaption once life began.

The video begs the question.
I don't think you watch the videos I posted.
No scientists believes that the first one celled animals on this planet had brains.
Brains evolved from a the nervous system.
I suggest watching the videos on the thread though:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50002&highlight=creationists+nightmare

Key videos are post 12 which explains the basics of evolution.
Post 45 Pretty much answers the question when you watch the video and read the text.
Also, post 130 shows how new information is created.

Anyway, I'm happy now. I have Boxcar on ignore. No need to engage someone who is as disingenuous as him.

[Show Me the Wire]

I watched the videos, so let me clarify. When I used the term brain, I was not literally refering to the physical growth of the organ itself. I meant the arising of consciousness, i.e. the realization of being. This concept of "being" is not aquedately explained in the video

And the videos do not explain the orgins of life.

I apologize for my confusing usage the word "brain", in my prior posting, to discuss something other than the physical organ itself.

[Cangamble]

I watched the videos, so let me clarify. When I used the term brain, I was not literally refering to the physical growth of the organ itself. I meant the arising of consciousness, i.e. the realization of being. This concept of "being" is not aquedately explained in the video
***************************
Did you read the text in post 45. It was adequate enough for me, as it states what differentiates us from earthworm which have the most archaic brains and thus consciousness.

And the videos do not explain the orgins of life.
***********************
That is a separate question as you know. And science has yet to form a consensus on the subject though most biologists think it is along these lines:
ozbFerzjkz4

An if your next question is how was matter created, well then you get even less consensus amongst scientists, so I won't tackle it here.



I apologize for my confusing usage the word "brain", in my prior posting, to discuss something other than the physical organ itself.[/QUOTE]

[melman]

Show me the Wire---I'll link an article you will find interesting.



I don’t think so. I don’t think there would be a universe if there were no God. I don’t think the universe would be fine-tuned for life if there were no God. And I don’t think there would be any actual life, believers, human beings, or religion either if there were no God. Am I wrong? If I am, nothing about evolutionary or cognitive psychology indicates that I am. So, contrary to our initial conclusion, evolutionary accounts do not teach us that we would have religious beliefs whether or not they are true. As a result, this argument fails.

Perhaps there are other reasons to think that these psychological accounts raise problems for religious belief but it is not at all clear what those reasons would be. For the moment, it seems perfectly acceptable for the Christian to hold that God created the world, human beings, and human minds in such a way that when they are functioning properly, they form beliefs in the existence of rocks, rainbows, human minds, and . . . God.
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6027

[Show Me the Wire]

Whoa, let us get something straight. I am not denying science or evolution. I take the Vatican's stand pointed out by Cangamble posted in the apology to Darwin thread.

My parochial school taught evolution and the compatibility of religion and science. In my view and belief system, religion and science are not mutually exclusive.

I was pointing out to Cangamble that evolution as a theory does not explain everything as cut and dried like Cangamble suggested it does.

[boxcar]

The question is where did the brain come from. Where is the orgin? That is not answered in the video.

Evolution does not explain orgin, beginnings of life, it explains adaption once life began.

The video begs the question.

BINGO! As does the entire world view of Materialism, i.e. evolution.

Boxcar

[hcap]

BINGO! As does the entire world view of Materialism, i.e. evolution.

Boxcar
Evidently the others here who accept evolution as well as their own faith are willing to define the age of the universe in billions. Or am I wrong? I have no problem at all with that.

[juanepstein]

ayatola khomeni was the anti-christ.

once you plant the seed you dont have to stick around.

[boxcar]

Evidently the others here who accept evolution as well as their own faith are willing to define the age of the universe in billions. Or am I wrong? I have no problem at all with that.

You Materialists must define the age of the universe in billions (if indeed not more!) because Time is the hero of the evolution plot. Father Time is one of your gods; for given enough time, so you reason, anything can happen!

Boxcar

[hcap]

Intelligent Design?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/27/david-attenborough-science
"Sir David Attenborough has revealed that he receives hate mail from viewers for failing to credit God in his documentaries. In an interview with this week's Radio Times about his latest documentary, on Charles Darwin and natural selection, the broadcaster said: "They tell me to burn in hell and good riddance."

Telling the magazine that he was asked why he did not give "credit" to God, Attenborough added: "They always mean beautiful things like hummingbirds. I always reply by saying that I think of a little child in east Africa with a worm burrowing through his eyeball. The worm cannot live in any other way, except by burrowing through eyeballs. I find that hard to reconcile with the notion of a divine and benevolent creator."So worms that live in eyes are a feature of Intelligent Design and an intelligent designer actively involved with the human condition?

[Tom]

Still dumpster diving for relevance hcap? :rolleyes:

[hcap]

Still dumpster diving for relevance hcap? :rolleyes:It was a serious question. Probably way above your pay grade.

As far as dumpster diving. It did bring you up from the nasties at the bottom of yours. Feel free to grab a breath of fresh air and chat about worms burrowing into a childs' eye.

[LottaKash]

I think most people, when it come to a choice of Evoulutionism or Creationism, miss a solid point.....The Bible "The True Work and Thinking of God", is very clear, about all this........

There was an EARTH AGE, prior to this one, and it lasted for Millions of years, until God became enraged and his wrath did away with all of it, and later created this Earth Age, the one that we now live in......It's all in the book of Genesis..

The Bible is not in conflict with Darwin and his discoveries, only in the way Darwin viewed them....Darwin, probably not educated enough and not realizing that an Earth Age preceded this Age, was under the assumption that all his misguided evidence and false assumptions pointed to a time of evolution and somehow we Humans evolved out of slime and such.......But, for every finding that was thought to be true, there were 2 or 3 more that could not be explained by Darwin...And his theory always fell flat on it's face....And still does to this day....

There is much evidence of the first Earth Age, and we see it in the fossils left behind, but more importantly, the humans although inhabiting the earth, were spirit formed and not earth formed, thus no human fossils.....but, these things are from the first earth age, which lasted for millions of years, are still being uncovered today, and there is no evidence of any living species in a half-life or anything of it's kind.......If Darwin were correct, and even he in the end, conceded that he may have not been so correct in his hypotheses' after all... How does one explain the complete stoppage of evolution ?.....If evolution was the reason for all this, then why do we not see evidence of such ?.....Wouldn't that mean that their would be fish walking around, and other creatures in their half-cyles enroute to a newer species?....We see no evidence of this, none.........What stopped evolution ?

So if one were to agree with the Bibles's explanation of our creation, and that there was an earth age that preceded this one, than all is harmonious and makes perfect sense......This present age that we live in, according to the Bible, is only about 6-7K years old, and we were created directly by God, and were EARTH FORMED in this present 2d Earth Age, and we did not evolve from slime or what have you.....

There are some who argue so visciously and defend Evolution as if they have all the answers, while not investigating all the evidence that exists and blindly follow some no-nothings, who have staged whole careers on falsehoods, and have been tragically mistaken big-time on the theory evolution....A theory and nothing more, and yet we are having it jammed down the throats of our children, while no evidence exists to prove this nonsense......You can believe it if you want to, but you can never convince me, as I have the Real Evidence always nearby on my Desktop, all of God's will and intentions and his plans for us neatly explained.....
Where we humans entered into the picure on this planet, is explained in exquisite detail in the Bible.....

best,

[MONEY]

Intelligent Design?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/27/david-attenborough-science
So worms that live in eyes are a feature of Intelligent Design and an intelligent designer actively involved with the human condition?

In the beginning God created the earth and everything on it. But God gave the earth and man the ability to create and evolve. Since then evolution, chemicals, & circumstances that god did not control have caused things like eye burrowing worms & Billy Mays to happen.

money

[ddog]

?.....Wouldn't that mean that their would be fish walking around, and other creatures in their half-cyles enroute to a newer species?....We see no evidence of this, none.........What stopped evolution


Whada mean , we got a babblin monkey that posts ass flash pictures as witty commentary, we got all other sorts who deny the holocaust, blame jews and anyone not of their tribe for all the ills of the world that have been inflicted on JUST them, poor babblers, the we got the happy meals types with their high sounding prose and the ones who think 9/11 was an inside job and the bubble mongers.

I say unto you, God was displeased and wiped out the first earth age and THIS was his second shot at it.

I need to have a long sober talk with this God dude, he has some serious issues to work through. Looks like he needs some HELP!

Evoluton , one would hope is alive and well right here, else what's he waiting for?

[LottaKash]

?.....I need to have a long sober talk with this God dude, he has some serious issues to work through. Looks like he needs some HELP!

Evoluton , one would hope is alive and well right here, else what's he waiting for?

Dog, God doesn't need to work through these issues, MAN DOES......This curent earth age is all about THIS, who is on or not on God's side, and biblically speaking that is it, in a nutshell......Who side are you or anyone else on ?....

The bible is clear, that we all existed before this earth age, and now we, having a free will, must now decide to live in God's Word and Laws or not......He is a loving God and would enjoy your company, as that is why we were created in the first place.....We have only to discover the Truth of his Word's to be alllowed to proceed to the place that we were first designed and made to live and prosper in, otherwise you will be rejected, FOREVER...Last Chance....All Aboard.....

In order to learn more you must take a stand and be willing to repent of wrong doing and open the mind and spirit to the Truth that is there for all to discover....The more you know the clearer picture will begin to manifest itself, and you will be on the real winning path....Man's path is destruction unto himself, he has ruined everything he has gotten his sinful hands on.....Disagree ?......How ?

God fully understands his mistake, and he understands man's sinful nature, and by giving man a free will, his original plan has failed miserably, thus the NEW PLAN for Salvation that is open for all who would listen......He had to give us a free will, otherwise what would be the use for a bunch of robot-like humans walking about saying "Praise God", "Praise God".....What would that do for God's ego.......He wants you to freely come to Truth and prove worthy by accepting his plan for salvation, and a top spot in his REAL KINGDOM and not this dumb place that we hold so dear to us.....Just look over your shoulder, someone is trying to take what you have or kill you, that is man's sad legacy of himself.....Not so in God's Realm......

The plan is simple, accept the fact that Jesus was God Among Us (emmanuel) and came to end this madness once and for all, by offering his un-mistakenly SINLESS self, to die a horrible death, which he defeated in three days to prove that he has the Power to do Anything.....All this.can be yours just by freely asking for and freely given, for the repentance and the forgiving all past sins , forever more, to be forgotten, due to his sacrifice of life and the resurrection of it.......All this was predicted thousands of years before his coming......

There is nothing (not according to some of man's wayward church traditions) that we can do to ever be good enough to sit in God's Kingdom other than admit we are sinners, repent of it and accept God's Free & Great Plan for Salvation, and live in the Truth of his Word's......That would seal the deal in God's Eye.........Try it.....

God is so HOLY and SINLESS. he just couldn't or should I say Wouldn't stand for a sinful man to be allowed in his Holy Presence......:jump: ...Thus the PLAN, and the reason for the BIBLE, to reveal this great Plan for You.......The one's who don't make the cut will be destroyed once and for all in the Great Lake of Fire, along with Satan and his evil followers......Forever, to be remembered no more.......God said this, not I........

So many people have this trouble trying to understand and comphrehend anything about a Lifeforce that is Omnipotent and Supernatural........Hey Darwin was just a man, just like us, a sinner, and has led many astray with his rubbish......Don't be fooled......Think about it.....

best,

[Tom]

One of the joys in my like is knowing HE will have that little talk with you, eventually, ddgog. :lol:

[hcap]

There was an EARTH AGE, prior to this one, and it lasted for Millions of years, until God became enraged and his wrath did away with all of it, and later created this Earth Age, the one that we now live in......It's all in the book of Genesis..

...the humans although inhabiting the earth, were spirit formed and not earth formed, thus no human fossils.....but, these things are from the first earth age, which lasted for millions of years, are still being uncovered today

....This present age that we live in, according to the Bible, is only about 6-7K years old,
Hey Lotta, where did you come up with these previous ages?.
There is nothing in the Bible that points to this. I believe Bible scholars will not agree. And archaeological history goes back much further. Sounds like you make this up as you go along.
If Darwin were correct, and even he in the end, conceded that he may have not been so correct in his hypotheses' after all... How does one explain the complete stoppage of evolution ?.....If evolution was the reason for all this, then why do we not see evidence of such ?.Evolution has not stopped. The only species for which evolution has stopped are the extinct ones.

[PaceAdvantage]

I get it. Bush is out of of office, so to fill the void, off-topic is going to go into some anti-God, anti-religion rant?

Ugh.

[ddog]

One of the joys in my like is knowing HE will have that little talk with you, eventually, ddgog. :lol:

well then if that's a joy to you , then maybe it will be a two fer you nit.

that you would even need to post it would say more than you would ever understand................

where's the ass flash?
always brings me to the cross for sure.



:lol:

[ddog]

I get it. Bush is out of of office, so to fill the void, off-topic is going to go into some anti-God, anti-religion rant?

Ugh.

get real.

ugh.

:rolleyes:

bush, what the h has that to do with soul saving?

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ddog]

Dog, God doesn't need to work through these issues, MAN DOES......This curent earth age is all about THIS, who is on or not on God's side, and biblically speaking that is it, in a nutshell......Who side are you or anyone else on ?....

The bible is clear, that we all existed before this earth age, and now we, having a free will, must now decide to live in God's Word and Laws or not......He is a loving God and would enjoy your company, as that is why we were created in the first place.....We have only to discover the Truth of his Word's to be alllowed to proceed to the place that we were first designed and made to live and prosper in, otherwise you will be rejected, FOREVER...Last Chance....All Aboard.....

In order to learn more you must take a stand and be willing to repent of wrong doing and open the mind and spirit to the Truth that is there for all to discover....The more you know the clearer picture will begin to manifest itself, and you will be on the real winning path....Man's path is destruction unto himself, he has ruined everything he has gotten his sinful hands on.....Disagree ?......How ?

God fully understands his mistake, and he understands man's sinful nature, and by giving man a free will, his original plan has failed miserably, thus the NEW PLAN for Salvation that is open for all who would listen......He had to give us a free will, otherwise what would be the use for a bunch of robot-like humans walking about saying "Praise God", "Praise God".....What would that do for God's ego.......He wants you to freely come to Truth and prove worthy by accepting his plan for salvation, and a top spot in his REAL KINGDOM and not this dumb place that we hold so dear to us.....Just look over your shoulder, someone is trying to take what you have or kill you, that is man's sad legacy of himself.....Not so in God's Realm......

The plan is simple, accept the fact that Jesus was God Among Us (emmanuel) and came to end this madness once and for all, by offering his un-mistakenly SINLESS self, to die a horrible death, which he defeated in three days to prove that he has the Power to do Anything.....All this.can be yours just by freely asking for and freely given, for the repentance and the forgiving all past sins , forever more, to be forgotten, due to his sacrifice of life and the resurrection of it.......All this was predicted thousands of years before his coming......

There is nothing (not according to some of man's wayward church traditions) that we can do to ever be good enough to sit in God's Kingdom other than admit we are sinners, repent of it and accept God's Free & Great Plan for Salvation, and live in the Truth of his Word's......That would seal the deal in God's Eye.........Try it.....

God is so HOLY and SINLESS. he just couldn't or should I say Wouldn't stand for a sinful man to be allowed in his Holy Presence......:jump: ...Thus the PLAN, and the reason for the BIBLE, to reveal this great Plan for You.......The one's who don't make the cut will be destroyed once and for all in the Great Lake of Fire, along with Satan and his evil followers......Forever, to be remembered no more.......God said this, not I........

So many people have this trouble trying to understand and comphrehend anything about a Lifeforce that is Omnipotent and Supernatural........Hey Darwin was just a man, just like us, a sinner, and has led many astray with his rubbish......Don't be fooled......Think about it.....

best,

oh Lord help us!

"God fully understands HIS mistake"

He told you that when or you got that all on your own?

Many seemed to be urged on in the taking and killing by the big guy himself in the past, why would that just stop forever?
Maybe the big guy is a little schizo, he sure changes some according to your post seems to me.

It's a sure sign of overwhelming self righteousness when others boldy proclaim a god bashing rant is taking place.
Who made them your god?

[HUSKER55]

tHE Rev. Jack Barr has several points that indicate the earth is less than 10,000 years old. google how old is the earth

[hcap]

I get it. Bush is out of of office, so to fill the void, off-topic is going to go into some anti-God, anti-religion rant?

Ugh.This thread was started by the always incoherent Investorater way before bush left.

The very fact that bush was elected sort of invalidates Intelligent Design.
Thanks PA for supporting my case. Although you could argue now God corrected his mistake. :cool:

[hcap]

So worms that live in eyes are a feature of Intelligent Design and an intelligent designer actively involved with the human condition?No one has seriously answered this. LottaKash has made up a mythical history. Sounding off like JR Tolkien writing about "middle earth" does not confront the question of human suffering.

[Tom]

Evolution has not stopped. The only species for which evolution has stopped are the extinct ones.

Then that means man is not the top of the life pyramid. There will be new life form above us. And maybe that means the temperature has to be a few degrees higher than it is now. At the least, it means that to somehow say what the ideal temperature is for the benefit of man is to fly in the face of evolution.

[Show Me the Wire]

hcap:

The question of human suffering has been answered, some do not hear the answer. Human suffering is born of mans' free will. Eve chose to exercise free will to eat the fruit of the tree in the center of the garden. She and Adam chose to listen to the evil one instead of their Creator. Paradise was lost and suffering began. Eve was cursed to have pain in childbirth and the ground was cursed so man would have to toil to bring forth food and death came into the world, for sin is death.

That is how suffering entered into the world through the sin of pride and its resulting disobedience.

Also, a good resource on suffering is the Old Testament Book of Job. Satan, the evil one, uses suffering to lead people away from the Creator. Explains the eye eating worm argument.

The sin of pride continues this day to bring suffering into the world.

[Tom]

Face paint, too.

[LottaKash]

No one has seriously answered this. LottaKash has made up a mythical history. Sounding off like JR Tolkien writing about "middle earth" does not confront the question of human suffering.

hcap, If you are the knowledgeable bible reader that you purport yourself to be, then you should know this....My young grandchildren do, they read it to me on their own....

The First Earth Age......
Genesis 1:1-2.... V1-In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..
V2- And the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep..And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Isaiah 45:18
V18- For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and mnade it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD, and there is none else...

II Peter 3:1-8
V1-This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up you pure minds by way of remembrance:
V2-That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour..
V3-Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
V4-And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep (died), all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation...
V5- For this they willingly are IGNORANT of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old (stayed the same), and the earth standing out of water and in the water (land and sea)
V6- Whereby the World "that then was" being overflowed with water, "perished"...
V7- But the heavens and the earth, which are NOW (2d earth age) by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire and judgement and perdition of ungodly men..

v8- But, beloved be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a THOUSAND YEARS, and a thousand years as one day....

Perhaps this has helped clear things up a bit, hcap, and others who may have any misgivings about this......

best,

[GaryG]

One of the joys in my like is knowing HE will have that little talk with you, eventually, ddgog. :lol:Tom, that brings to mind zilly, about whom I think we had this discussion. D'oh!

[PaceAdvantage]

And I thought the left could never get even more repetitive and boring then when Bush was around. Now that he's gone, the material is even worse...how can this be?

I will applaud ddog though, and his sudden resurgence in off-topic. When it comes time to give out the "Hal Holbrook in Wall Street" award here on PA off-topic, ddog will assuredly win it every single year.

[hcap]

hcap:

The question of human suffering has been answered, some do not hear the answer. Human suffering is born of mans' free will. Eve chose to exercise free will to eat the fruit of the tree in the center of the garden. She and Adam chose to listen to the evil one instead of their Creator. Paradise was lost and suffering began. Eve was cursed to have pain in childbirth and the ground was cursed so man would have to toil to bring forth food and death came into the world, for sin is death.

That is how suffering entered into the world through the sin of pride and its resulting disobedience.

Also, a good resource on suffering is the Old Testament Book of Job. Satan, the evil one, uses suffering to lead people away from the Creator. Explains the eye eating worm argument.

The sin of pride continues this day to bring suffering into the world.
I fail to understand how a 5 year old with a worm in her eye is to also to blame for a sin of her mythical ancestors She and Adam chose to listen to the evil one instead of their Creator. Or are you saying suffering of young children and infants is part of God's plan?

[hcap]

And I thought the left could never get even more repetitive and boring then when Bush was around. Now that he's gone, the material is even worse...how can this be?.Yeah the material is much worse. The repetitive right here is much worse than the left ever was. Obama is president 100 hours and according to the right, is far worse than bush ever was after 8 long years. The anti-bush sentiments, much of which were anti-war and ant-Katrina, drew from real events and real failures that could be criticized by their real world results.

Generally 100 days is the "give the guy a break" time. Not 100 hours.
BTW. Notice I bolded "repetitive right". I really feel you gentlemen are attempting revenge for Nov.

Is there any way we can access off topic way back during bushs' first term first month? I was not around.(I only see going back one year in advanced search).

I would be very surprised to find the few lefties here having the same type orgasmic anti-bush bashing that you gentlemen are now engaged in.

[Show Me the Wire]

I fail to understand how a 5 year old with a worm in her eye is to also to blame for a sin of her mythical ancestors Or are you saying suffering of young children and infants is part of God's plan?


You say they are "mythical" parents. Do you know this as a fact? Ever hear the sins of the father are visited upon the children?

I said suffering came into this world due to Man's sin of pride against Man's Creator through Man's exercise of free will. As a result of this rebellion by Man certain curses were set upon the earth, as I stated earlier. These statements, no how no way, reflect your erroneous interpretaion that human suffering is God's will.

God suffered, by death on the cross that was the almighty's plan so that we, his creation would not suffer eternal death.

You really need to educate yourself about traditional Christian theology regarding suffering so you can understand the meaning of suffering and then we can have a meaningful exchange.

I bet you didn't read the Book of Job.

[Show Me the Wire]

hcap:

After some reflection, I realized that I did not comunicate the most elementry point related to human suffering. Satan, the evil one, has domain over the earth and power over Man, since Man's sin of pride through the exercise of free will. It is the eveil one's plan to inflict pain and suffering on young children and infants.

Without the above understanding it is understandable you interpreted my prior statements to mean that God's plan included suffering for children.

[Tom]

So what happens to the ones the dems kill in the womb?
Or, are dems acting as agents of Satin? Hmmmmmm.

[Bubba X]

So what happens to the ones the dems kill in the womb?
Or, are dems acting as agents of Satin? Hmmmmmm.

I guess you missed this little tidbit of wisdom offered by William Bennett, noted conservative Republican:

"If you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose -- you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down."

[OTM Al]

hcap:

After some reflection, I realized that I did not comunicate the most elementry point related to human suffering. Satan, the evil one, has domain over the earth and power over Man, since Man's sin of pride through the exercise of free will. It is the eveil one's plan to inflict pain and suffering on young children and infants.

Without the above understanding it is understandable you interpreted my prior statements to mean that God's plan included suffering for children.


I can't resist this. I'm such a sucker for this stuff. Do you realize that your arguement logically says

A) Satan is more powerful than God

or

B) Barring A), God condones Satan's activities, which make him a rather nasty character

I think you have some problem with that free will thing. All this proves to me is that man has been adept at blaming his problems on someone else for a very long time.

[Show Me the Wire]

I can't resist this. I'm such a sucker for this stuff. Do you realize that your arguement logically says

A) Satan is more powerful than God

or

B) Barring A), God condones Satan's activities, which make him a rather nasty character

I think you have some problem with that free will thing. All this proves to me is that man has been adept at blaming his problems on someone else for a very long time.

With all respect it does not.

Satan is a created being, not divine. And both your points relate to free will. Satan was created with free will and so was man. God does not condone evil, but allows free will which results in rightiousness or evil.

If I may a brief example on condoning and allowing. If your child told a falsehood I am sure you would not condone it. Without your condoning the previous faslehood, your child tells another falsehood. Why? Because your child has free will and you allowed him to utilize his free will. God tolerates our actions because God gave us free will.

Tolerance versus condoning huge difference.

The concept of Free will is quite the opposite of your statement. If I didn't have free will I have no choices to make and therefore no consequences for my actions. The idea of free will is to accept responsibility for our own acts.

As always I enjoy your inquiries OTM Al.

[Tom]

I guess you missed this little tidbit of wisdom offered by William Bennett, noted conservative Republican:

"If you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose -- you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down."

OK, was there a point there, or just more platitude-dispensing?
I kind of think of Furbies when I read some of these posts.

[Bubba X]

OK, was there a point there, or just more platitude-dispensing?
I kind of think of Furbies when I read some of these posts.

The point is obvious.

Adjust tin foil as needed.

[toetoe]

I plead, in her defense and on her behalf, temporary insanity --- she was going crazy trying to remove that strange Diarmament Now sign from her little face. :eek:

Sorry, that thing still just creeps me out.

[OTM Al]

With all respect it does not.

Satan is a created being, not divine. And both your points relate to free will. Satan was created with free will and so was man. God does not condone evil, but allows free will which results in rightiousness or evil.

If I may a brief example on condoning and allowing. If your child told a falsehood I am sure you would not condone it. Without your condoning the previous faslehood, your child tells another falsehood. Why? Because your child has free will and you allowed him to utilize his free will. God tolerates our actions because God gave us free will.

Tolerance versus condoning huge difference.

The concept of Free will is quite the opposite of your statement. If I didn't have free will I have no choices to make and therefore no consequences for my actions. The idea of free will is to accept responsibility for our own acts.

As always I enjoy your inquiries OTM Al.

As I enjoy yours, as they are always well thought out rather than dogmatic.

If these things are then the result of free will, which I would agree, then they have nothing to do with Satan. They are things that happen for various reasons. Many bad things that happen have no evil intent behind them whatsoever. Others are done from a purely evil intent.

God's greatest gift to us is our free will. As you say, our very choice to act gives us the ability to follow a path of righteousness or of evil or of any shade in between. The Genesis story is a wonderful piece of writing that expains why life is hard. Life is hard because God gave man a choice of blissful ignorance or a hard life, but with the ability for self determination. Man took the latter in the story.

I still stick to my point though that by saying Satan has dominion over the earth, you are saying that God is either powerless to stop him or does not, neither of which agree with the all loving, all powerful, all knowing God. This Satan stuff is dreck. It is the reminants of Polythiesm when there were good and evil gods. In fact, most of the names for the "evil one" in the Bible are simply the gods of other peoples. A great example comes in the name of the great Carthaginian general Hanibal. In his language, Phoenecian, his name means "beloved of Ba'al" who was the primary diety of those people.

The playing of things off on Satan or whatever is just man's long journey in trying to explain the world he lives in

[hcap]

I plead, in her defense and on her behalf, temporary insanity --- she was going crazy trying to remove that strange Diarmament Now sign from her little face. :eek:

Sorry, that thing still just creeps me out.
Still refusing to speak human? I know you can. Speaking sub-literal parenthesis enclosing smiley language, avoiding having a substantial point of view, and once again playing silly word games with avatars is below par even for most of off topic.

So Mistah toe, what in fact do you think about worms existing solely to burrow into infants eyes.

Is it.....

a)-an intelligent designer not so intelligent?
b)-God not paying attention to the details of his creation?
c)-Satan playing tricks?
d)-None of the above?

I vote for d and partiall credit for b
What say you in non-cutesy English please?

[dutchboy]

If the Bible was written today for the first time would it be sold in the fiction or non fiction section of book stores?

Not sure if anything written in the bible can be proved.

[toetoe]

I'm barely human, so whatever "speaking human" entails, I may, understandably, be sorely lacking.

As to "speaking sub-literal parenthesis enclosing smiley language," am I being given a cryptic crossword, the key to which is repunctuation ?

What do "bon mot" and "avatar" mean in your universe ? I do have a clue about "avatar." I believe it is the human incarnation of God on Earth, or something close to that.

I guess two options face the adult, tasteful boardmate:

1) ignore the spooky picture of the girl, who CAN'T be painting herself of her own free will, and

2) speak out (as lighheartedly as possible and as silly as it may sound) against the use of children for political, and therefore ugly, purposes.

Cappy, also beware of Bubba X. He may find your screed childish. You may be accused of being an adolescent. I warn you --- it hurts. :(

[hcap]

You are hopeless. Why not answer the question? Deal with substance not silliness. You can not throw a thesaurus at these kinds of issues. Or is your brain eternally frozen in word puzzles and crosswords?

OK, I have to admit occasionally watching "Married with Children"
There was one episode where Kelly the airhead daughter was being prepped by Al for a quiz show. Unfortunately we found out towards the end of the episode Kellys' brain could only store so much info and Trivia before she was FULL. I believe Als' strategy was to empty some trivia out before he could cram new stuff in.
As to "speaking sub-literal parenthesis enclosing smiley language," am I being given a cryptic crossword, the key to which is repunctuation ?No repunctuation will not help a chock full of trivia brain.
Is there such a thing as a pre-frontal enema?

[OTM Al]

If the Bible was written today for the first time would it be sold in the fiction or non fiction section of book stores?

Not sure if anything written in the bible can be proved.

Lots of it can be, much more than archaeologists once thought. That's not to say it all can be, nor do I think the writers thought that it should in some cases (ie the story of Jonah was purely intended to be a morality tale, and a funny one at that). Many lessons presented are important. It doesn't matter if they are literaly true or not.

[hcap]

Many lessons presented are important. It doesn't matter if they are literaly true or not.Exactly!
I seem to remember having this debate before. My question about worms burrowing into innocent eyes is a tough one. No literal interpretation of select passages IMHO can handle the larger philosophical question of innocent suffering.This does not invalidate belief, or God or religion. This topic is a mainstay of most religions and some serious philosophers have tried to answer these questions.

[Show Me the Wire]

...Many lessons presented are important. It doesn't matter if they are literaly true or not.


Why are these lessons important if there is no God?

Also, if God tolerates Man and his free will, who first was given domain over the earth, why is it difficult to believe God tolerates a spritual creation endowed with free will too?

Eventually, as scripture reveals, the evil one will be no longer be tolerated and the new heavens and earth will come to be.

[HUSKER55]

Hcp, I would have never picked you for a "Married with children" kind of person.

I always thought that those examples were more to point out to adults to take responsibility for their children. Cleanliness is next to godliness. I mean how much sin can a child have, really. To invoke the wrath of a god like that I think I will bet against that.

However, it does dictate to man his responsibility to those in his "flock". God gave man free will but there is a price and there are consequences.

I hope I made my point clear.

[hcap]

Why are these lessons important if there is no God?

Also, if God tolerates Man and his free will, who first was given domain over the earth, why is it difficult to believe God tolerates a spritual creation endowed with free will too?

Eventually, as scripture reveals, the evil one will be no longer be tolerated and the new heavens and earth will come to be.The "evil one"?

I'm afraid I don't believe in the devil. I think the division of the world into good and evil is the problem. Genesis is interesting in that it mentions the fall of man due to eating of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". From a slightly different take duality itself according to some eastern schools of thought, appears to be the main problem in the way we perceive the universe. The intellect tends to categorize events into cause and effect, good vs evil, yes/no. The Zen koan "what is the sound of one hand clapping" points to a non dualistic understanding of this improper application of the intellect

[hcap]

Also, if God tolerates Man and his free will, who first was given domain over the earth, why is it difficult to believe God tolerates a spritual creation endowed with free will too?Are cancer cells growing out of control the "free will" of God's creation? If you get hit by a drunken driver and are seriously injured, another example of "free will" of God's creation?
Killed in a tornado/flood/avalanche/lightning/earthquake all examples of "free will" of God's creation?

Or possibly just the way the world is?
Sometimes understanding all of this is just not doable
The Buddhists call this the "Suchness" of the world.
Thatagatha. It refers to all of this including all pleasure and pain.

[ddog]

Why are these lessons important if there is no God?

Also, if God tolerates Man and his free will, who first was given domain over the earth, why is it difficult to believe God tolerates a spritual creation endowed with free will too?

Eventually, as scripture reveals, the evil one will be no longer be tolerated and the new heavens and earth will come to be.

why would he need to tolerate the devil?
indeed why wouldn't he be the devil?
man , given free will, without the devil would always make the godly choice?
so, once the devil is banished, the need for free will is gone?

[toetoe]

Now we are getting somewhere. Tell me more about 'Married.' Was it maybe the subject of a transference (OOPS ... sorry; don't look it up), a stand-in for the love you lost from your parents when you flunked toilet training ?

I myself liked 'Have Gun Will Travel;' this future horseplayer could not resist a gunslinger whose first name was Wire. Surely you recall, Sherman ;)

[Show Me the Wire]

ddog:

We already had the discussion about free will and God's respect for his creatures exercise of such. If you can't answer my simple question about why are these lessons so important if there is no God, just say so. It is disingenious to deflect the discussion with another question about
God's tolerance of free will.

And the same for you hcap. You are absolutely correct the injury to the child is directly attributable to the person whom used his free will to decide to ingest intoxicants and operate a motor vehicle.

Nature by definition acts without intent so there is no free will involved.

Regarding cause and effect try walking off a roof on to the thin air and see how real cause and effect are.

Your question about cancer cells was answered earlier. Again death came into the world through Man's exercise of free will.

So how about telling my why these lessons, contained in Holy scripture, are important if God does not exist.

Not believing in the devil is not an answer to why you agreed with OTM Al's observation that the lessons are important.

[Tom]

If there is no God, there is no right or wrong, therefore, the only lesson that matters is survival of the fittest. Take what you need, kill who you want to, just don't hit on someone tougher than you are. Simple lesson.

[Show Me the Wire]

Very astute Tom.


Shame that someone from the God exists deniers' crowd did not have the testacular fortitude to type such an honest answer to my question.

[hcap]

ddog:

We already had the discussion about free will and God's respect for his creatures exercise of such. If you can't answer my simple question about why are these lessons so important if there is no God, just say so. It is disingenious to deflect the discussion with another question about
God's tolerance of free will.

And the same for you hcap. You are absolutely correct the injury to the child is directly attributable to the person whom used his free will to decide to ingest intoxicants and operate a motor vehicle.

Nature by definition acts without intent so there is no free will involved.

Regarding cause and effect try walking off a roof on to the thin air and see how real cause and effect are.

Your question about cancer cells was answered earlier. Again death came into the world through Man's exercise of free will.

So how about telling my why these lessons, contained in Holy scripture, are important if God does not exist.

Not believing in the devil is not an answer to why you agreed with OTM Al's observation that the lessons are important.
Are you saying GOD punished infants and young children for the mistakes of two adults-6 thousand years ago? Aren't they innocent or does "original sin" forever torture the young? Seems to me God could have said "OK guys, no worms burrowing in your eye or dying of lingering painful diseases until you are old enough to decide for yourself whether or not to eat of that Genesis tree"
Regarding cause and effect try walking off a roof on to the thin air and see how real cause and effect are.I never said cause and effect is not real. Just that our perception narrows the chain of cause and effect to a limited immediate before and after.

If there is no God, there is no right or wrong, therefore, the only lesson that matters is survival of the fittest. Take what you need, kill who you want to, just don't hit on someone tougher than you are. Simple lesson.I am not saying there is no God. I am asking about God' plan for innocents suffering. There are other ways of belief in God that try to reconcile a creator and suffering without resorting to original sin and the devil.

[hcap]

Very astute Tom.


Shame that someone from the God exists deniers' crowd did not have the testacular fortitude to type such an honest answer to my question.It is extremely unlikely the story of exodus happened literally as depicted in the Bible. Nevertheless it is a very important insight into spiritual development.
Once you get past most of the historical distortion of many parts of scriptures from all over the world, the symbolic and allegorical themes are what shine.

[OTM Al]

If there is no God, there is no right or wrong, therefore, the only lesson that matters is survival of the fittest. Take what you need, kill who you want to, just don't hit on someone tougher than you are. Simple lesson.

This is incorrect and the wrong reason why one should act properly. If the only reason you don't do these things is because you believe God will punish you for them, then there is no reverance for God, only fear. An atheist can be a very moral person when it comes to right and wrong. A believer can be intolerant and hateful. Man sets standards and they have moved over time, as have man's interpretations of what God has said. It's simply a matter of treating each other with respect.

[HUSKER55]

How can you believe in God and doubt the Bible. Wouldn't doubting the bible be the equivalent of doubting God. Just because man does not understand it does not mean it did not happen.

If the Bible says the exodus happened this way then that is how it happened.

Right?

husker55

[Tom]

This is incorrect and the wrong reason why one should act properly. If the only reason you don't do these things is because you believe God will punish you for them, then there is no reverence for God, only fear. An atheist can be a very moral person when it comes to right and wrong. A believer can be intolerant and hateful. Man sets standards and they have moved over time, as have man's interpretations of what God has said. It's simply a matter of treating each other with respect.

Nope. You are way off base and too narrowly focused. Belief in God leads to love of God, not just fear as you assume. If I knew I was a randomly occurring carbon based unit and not a child of God, I would not love or fear...I would be motivated only to survive, like all other animals. There is no right or wrong for dogs, lions, crocodiles....just survival. What possible reason would I have to worry about competitors for my food and shelter ( other ROCBU's)???

[OTM Al]

How can you believe in God and doubt the Bible. Wouldn't doubting the bible be the equivalent of doubting God. Just because man does not understand it does not mean it did not happen.

If the Bible says the exodus happened this way then that is how it happened.

Right?

husker55

No, its not the same thing. The Bible is a record of man trying to understand God. Look how different the interpretations are from the begining to the end.

Exodus didn't really happen that way. There were never that many Jews in Egypt. Moses' origin story is adapted from a far older story. Many scholars now believe it was actually the Egyptians leaving the area that is now modern Israel. The Bible is not God.

[OTM Al]

Nope. You are way off base and too narrowly focused. Belief in God leads to love of God, not just fear as you assume. If I knew I was a randomly occurring carbon based unit and not a child of God, I would not love or fear...I would be motivated only to survive, like all other animals. There is no right or wrong for dogs, lions, crocodiles....just survival. What possible reason would I have to worry about competitors for my food and shelter ( other ROCBU's)???

This explains none of the civilization of peoples who did not believe in a Judeo-Christian God and they far outweigh those that did. Chinese, Egyptian and Indian, just to name a few, people did not believe in God, but their civilzation is far older than that in the west.

Your arguement was that if there is no God, then there is no right or wrong, but plenty of people on this planet existed and got along just fine with their neighbors without any knowledge of him. They understood right from wrong quite well and didn't act like animals. No love of God is required.

[Tom]

They believed in a supreme being or beings.
In any event, by your definition, right and wrong are man-made ideas, therefore, subject to change.

[OTM Al]

They believed in a supreme being or beings.
In any event, by your definition, right and wrong are man-made ideas, therefore, subject to change.

But not God, and calling the gods of some of them supreme is a real stretch. Do you equate their deities with him? You say without love of him there is no understanding of right and wrong, so you must be.

And yes they are subject to change. Ever heard of slavery?

[Tom]

You confuse right with legal.
I made my point.....to SMTW's question, either accept it or not, debating it will not change my mind, only bore me to death...ooops, too late.

[OTM Al]

You confuse right with legal.
I made my point.....to SMTW's question, either accept it or not, debating it will not change my mind, only bore me to death...ooops, too late.

Yes, I'm sure those who are always right do grow bored.

You confuse your denial of anything you don't agree with with fact. Slavery was considered a proper human instution and believed justified by the Bible itself for a very very long time. In some places today it is not considered wrong.

How about some others so you can be even more bored? I'm sure homosexuality is a terrible wrong in your book, but certain cultures not only condoned it, but encouraged it. Ever hear of the Spartans?

If you don't think slavery ever was considered proper, how about outright racism? Treating women as second class citizens? If I wasn't so bored with your complete lack of ability to debate any issue I could come up with more.

[HUSKER55]

The new testament includes the words of christ hence the word of god. Doesn't it go "In the name of the father, son and holy ghost" the trinity.

The bible was written by the deciples of events that happened. Man has been trying to interpret them and what happened for centuries. The bible is not a history book for people to re-write. It is not a work of fiction.

You are free to believe what you want but the Bible says the exedus was from eygpt and not ther othe way around. Hence, man trying to explain away the bible.....again.

Like I said before, just because you don't understand it does not mean it is not so. That is why it is based on faith.

Suppose you could explain away the Bible tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. Would that make you feel better? What would you gain? You still would not know if you were correct. Remember what god's words are? It goes something like "in the end my words remain". I am the alpha and the omega, beginning and the end. No one knows till that final moment arrives and etc.


Just curious, Interested in your feed back.

Have a nice evening.

[hcap]

Nope. You are way off base and too narrowly focused. Belief in God leads to love of God, not just fear as you assume. If I knew I was a randomly occurring carbon based unit and not a child of God, I would not love or fear...I would be motivated only to survive, like all other animals. There is no right or wrong for dogs, lions, crocodiles....just survival. What possible reason would I have to worry about competitors for my food and shelter ( other ROCBU's)???Right and wrong are emotionally felt through empathy and conscience. Whether or not God put it in us or evolution did is not the point. Those "organs" are there and other cultures without a supreme being grew and socially interacted by these emotional sense organs. Of course I suppose God could have installed them without appearing personally in those cultures. But why stay anonymous?

Being a parent. Watching and helping your child to grow is a simple joy that outshines many overstuffed belief systems. Being and working with kids-particularly young kids is sometimes a non verbal insight into larger things of the universe.

Having pets is a great example of emotional perceptions shared by both animal and human, and a slight inkling of unconditional love.

Both are empathetic bonds that need no intellectual belief in God or religion. Sometimes the simpler experiences of life are worth much more than intellectual analysis.

All of these interactions between social species can be explained by either the "God hypothesis" or the strictly materialistic "evolutionary hypothesis". It actually matters less which one you choose to explain these emotional experiences, than actually the direct experience itself.

But back to my question about suffering.

Suffering is part and parcel of the human experience. There may be some easy answers when trying to understand it intellectually-Satan, Original sin, the mechanistic nature of the universe, but there are none when trying to understand it emotionally. When a pet dies or God forbid a child, no theory in the world will explain your suffering. Trying to understand the nature of a worm burrowing into a childs' eye is not only an intellectual exercise but a larger emotional puzzle. One that cannot be avoided for most of us.

Just as in the Zen koan "What is the sound of one hand clapping?", there may not be an apparent answer.

[hcap]

You are free to believe what you want but the Bible says the exedus was from eygpt and not ther othe way around. Hence, man trying to explain away the bible.....again.

Like I said before, just because you don't understand it does not mean it is not so. That is why it is based on faith.

Suppose you could explain away the Bible tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. Would that make you feel better? What would you gain? You still would not know if you were correct. Remember what god's words are? It goes something like "in the end my words remain". I am the alpha and the omega, beginning and the end. No one knows till that final moment arrives and etc.


Just curious, Interested in your feed back.

Have a nice evening.I don't think I am trying to explain away the Bible. Sometimes there are other ways to see truths other than what's on the surface. In fact many great works of literature work on many different levels, and that is what makes for the definition of great.

[Tom]

Yes, I'm sure those who are always right do grow bored.

You confuse your denial of anything you don't agree with with fact. Slavery was considered a proper human instution and believed justified by the Bible itself for a very very long time. In some places today it is not considered wrong.

How about some others so you can be even more bored? I'm sure homosexuality is a terrible wrong in your book, but certain cultures not only condoned it, but encouraged it. Ever hear of the Spartans?

If you don't think slavery ever was considered proper, how about outright racism? Treating women as second class citizens? If I wasn't so bored with your complete lack of ability to debate any issue I could come up with more.

You are becoming an itch really fast.
My point is that right and wrong are absolutes, they NEVER change. Slavery was NEVER right, no matter what people think. Right and wrong are not determined by man. Don't confuse inability to debate with not giving a hoot to discuss anything with an internet liberal. Frankly, your opinion on any topic bores me. I was relying to SMTW, now you want to convert me? What is the point? I don't care what you believe, so what is my incentive?

[MONEY]

You are becoming an itch really fast.
My point is that right and wrong are absolutes, they NEVER change.
One day many years ago, while on patrol in the South Bronx, I saw a pile of clothing lying on the sidewalk. I went over to inspect it and found that the pile was Mike. Mike was an incurable junky and was dying of aids. I knew what Mike needed. I also knew that if I called an ambulance that he would end up ignored in the emergy room at Lincoln Hospital.
I didn't have any money on me, but I had my wedding band in my pocket and I had been recently divorced. I helped Mike up off of the ground and gave him my wedding band and told him to go and get himself straight.
A few hours later I saw Mike again and he was happy, out of pain, clean, and he was eating. He thanked me for helping him out. Mike died that night.
Was I right for helping Mike live his last few hours without pain, or was I wrong for giving him the resources that he needed to purchase illegal drugs that had gotten him so sick in the 1st place.

money

[OTM Al]

You are becoming an itch really fast.
My point is that right and wrong are absolutes, they NEVER change. Slavery was NEVER right, no matter what people think. Right and wrong are not determined by man. Don't confuse inability to debate with not giving a hoot to discuss anything with an internet liberal. Frankly, your opinion on any topic bores me. I was relying to SMTW, now you want to convert me? What is the point? I don't care what you believe, so what is my incentive?

And you have been a bully for a very long time. If I am so boring, butt out. I'm having a good conversation with SMTW. I have respect for him because unlike you he has the ability to think and argue his points rather than insult.

[OTM Al]

The new testament includes the words of christ hence the word of god. Doesn't it go "In the name of the father, son and holy ghost" the trinity.

The bible was written by the deciples of events that happened. Man has been trying to interpret them and what happened for centuries. The bible is not a history book for people to re-write. It is not a work of fiction.

You are free to believe what you want but the Bible says the exedus was from eygpt and not ther othe way around. Hence, man trying to explain away the bible.....again.

Like I said before, just because you don't understand it does not mean it is not so. That is why it is based on faith.

Suppose you could explain away the Bible tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. Would that make you feel better? What would you gain? You still would not know if you were correct. Remember what god's words are? It goes something like "in the end my words remain". I am the alpha and the omega, beginning and the end. No one knows till that final moment arrives and etc.


Just curious, Interested in your feed back.

Have a nice evening.

Now back to the discussion. First off, let me be clear lest the previous exchange throws any confusion on the matter. I have complete respect for your beliefs. The only thing I don't understand is the need for everything in the Bible to be true to believe. I will give you one example of an event described in the Bible that is not true and explain why it is there.

From Luke:
2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus to register all the empire for taxes. 2:2 This was the first registration, taken when Quirinius was governor of Syria. 2:3 Everyone went to his own town to be registered. 2:4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family line of David. 2:5 He went to be reg-istered with Mary, who was promised in mar-riage to him, and who was expecting a child. 2:6 While they were there, the time came for her to deliver her child. 2:7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in strips of cloth and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.

Nice, but a complete fabrication. First off, the dates for this are very clear because we not only know who was running the show at Rome, but who was governor of Syria. No census was called at this time. Now you might say it was so long ago, maybe records of such a census were lost. Ok, but even if you accept this, the description of the census is incorrect. Taxation was based on where you lived. In any Roman census, Joseph would have been counted in Nazareth.

Why is this here then? Because Jesus was believed to be the Messiah, and therefore must fulfill the prophesies. One said he would be of the line of David and come from Bethlehem. The writer (who was not one of the 12 btw) did not write this because he wanted to fool us. He wrote this because he believed in Jesus and he believed there are certain things required of a king, therefore he must have fulfilled these prophesies.

My point in all this is that it is not a literal reading of the Bible that is important nor is it important that everything written happened exactly the way it was written. What is important are the lessons contained there and the eternal search of man to know and find God. Faith needs to be stronger than words written on a page. There is a point and purpose to everything contained there, but as time has passed, men have forgotten the reasons and the way people used to think. A reader 2000 years ago (well, really closer to 1900...) would understand things very differently than we do today.

[Tom]

And you have been a bully for a very long time. If I am so boring, butt out. I'm having a good conversation with SMTW. I have respect for him because unlike you he has the ability to think and argue his points rather than insult.

Gee, my humble apologies...I could have sworn I saw other posters in the thread...my bad. I must have imagined SMTW replied to me as well.

[OTM Al]

Yes Tom, there are other posters, but you were the only one to start insulting people when they challenged your assertions. If you want to discuss, please do, but if you want to bully when you can't support a point then kindly back away.

[Show Me the Wire]

Whew! Surprisingly we have swerved off again in our discussions about why bad things happen. As ususal hcap answered my question about apples with an answer about the benefits of organges.

And Tom and OTM Al get it on over Tom's answer to my question.

First my postings were in regards to suffering coming into the world, not about right or wrong or that every word in the Christian Bible should be taken literally.

Second, let's clear up some misinformation or ill formed conceptions. The Egyptions believed in a supreme god and creation came forth through the supreme god's son Horus(sp).

Later Amenhotep IV recognized the idea of one god and banned the worship of other Egyptian gods. Amenhotep IV was eventually overthrown and the ancient religion of many gods came back into vogue.

Eastern philosophy recognized the existence of some creator force and the spitirual world.

I believe this is what Tom was implying that all major cultures recognize man is subject to a superior being, whom is responsible for man's creation.

Recognizing the above historical facts does not translate to believeing these dietiies or creative forces, worshipped in these cultures, as being equal to the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the Lord God of Israel. chronicled in the Jewish Bible, Christian Bible and Quoran. It is my belief, as well as the belief of Jews and Muslims, The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the The Livng God, the True God and The Holy God.

So my point is most of the world believed man was created for some higher purpose by a force or being superior to man. As a result man was subject to a different standard of behavior than the other animals.

Thus my question about what good are any moral codes if there is no God?
As Tom answered truthfully, none of these moral codes apply.

[Show Me the Wire]

.........
From Luke:
2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus to register all the empire for taxes. 2:2 This was the first registration, taken when Quirinius was governor of Syria. 2:3 Everyone went to his own town to be registered. 2:4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family line of David. 2:5 He went to be reg-istered with Mary, who was promised in mar-riage to him, and who was expecting a child. 2:6 While they were there, the time came for her to deliver her child. 2:7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in strips of cloth and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.

Nice, but a complete fabrication. First off, the dates for this are very clear because we not only know who was running the show at Rome, but who was governor of Syria. No census was called at this time. Now you might say it was so long ago, maybe records of such a census were lost. Ok, but even if you accept this, the description of the census is incorrect. Taxation was based on where you lived. In any Roman census, Joseph would have been counted in Nazareth.

Why is this here then? Because Jesus was believed to be the Messiah, and therefore must fulfill the prophesies. One said he would be of the line of David and come from Bethlehem. The writer (who was not one of the 12 btw) did not write this because he wanted to fool us. He wrote this because he believed in Jesus and he believed there are certain things required of a king, therefore he must have fulfilled these prophesies.

My point in all this is that it is not a literal reading of the Bible that is important nor is it important that everything written happened exactly the way it was written. What is important are the lessons contained there and the eternal search of man to know and find God. Faith needs to be stronger than words written on a page. There is a point and purpose to everything contained there, but as time has passed, men have forgotten the reasons and the way people used to think. A reader 2000 years ago (well, really closer to 1900...) would understand things very differently than we do today.

As you recognized Luke was not an original apostle nor was he an eye witness. He chronicled the oral testimony given to him and relied on the Gospel of Mark. Luke may have mixed up the name of the Governor, or the type of census taken in his writting, but that does not invalidate the whole that Jesus was born in Betlehem.

Remember, the people who lived in the era the Gospel was written did not object to the historical accuracy. Maybe there was a census of some sort taken that these people were privy too.

As it is stated all the time when it comes to Holy Scripture, we should have the understanding of the reader when the passage was written. Well the readers at that time had no problem with a census being taken. If they didn't have a problem with it, I certainly don't.

OTM Al, I agrre completely with your profound thought: Faith, indeed needs to be stronger than words written on a page.

[boxcar]

OTM Al, I agrre completely with your profound thought: Faith, indeed needs to be stronger than words written on a page.

Err...are you speaking to rational or irrational faith?

Boxcar

[OTM Al]

Later Amenhotep IV recognized the idea of one god and banned the worship of other Egyptian gods. Amenhotep IV was eventually overthrown and the ancient religion of many gods came back into vogue.


This has often been cited about how the polytheists did from time to time believe there was only one God. Another famous one is the belief that Vergil prophesised the coming of Jesus in one of his famed eclogues. Both unfortunately were false. In the case of this Pharoh, he actual took a step back. Aton was basically a sun god, which generally is the most primitive type of gods peoples have landed on.

Frequently also when you read the works of the Romans and the Greeks, you will see reference to god in the singular. It is also tempting to believe that this is also a shift to monotheism like ours, but in fact they really didn't mean it in the same way.

Your point about historical accuracy is very important. Its because the readers back then recognized that that was not the part that was important. Jesus needed to have the hallmarks of a king, therefore they were given to him. People may well have known that it wasn't true, but they realized that that wasn't what mattered.

Back on point though, the argument you have presented is a classic one. Can right and wrong exist without God. You and Tom follow that path of the church fathers and say no. I don't and follow the path that right and wrong could exist without a God. Of course you would have to presume people would be here without a God, but let's leave that be.

I gave the examples of other cultures to show they had right and wrong without any knowledge of God. Its not a perfect answer, but in the end, this debate has no right or wrong answer because like the very existance of God, it cannot be proven, it can only be believed. I can believe in God and yet believe that people can develop these concepts on their own. Too often our species has claimed that something is right because God says so, and it turns out such things aren't so right after all. The scriptures can help teach us right and wrong, but in the end, its up to us.

[Show Me the Wire]

It is very interesting that, Eastern philosophies teach "Knowledge" let evil into the world. The major Eastern philosphies accept the idea man brought evil into the world through man’s ignorance. This ignorance of man gives rise to false knowledge, and harmful desires. Sounds very familiar to the concept of Adam and Eve seeking the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

So according to this practically universal concept (even the ancient Mayan culture buys into this idea) evil entered into the world through Man's attempt to obtain knowledge.

To me this validates the Jewish, Christian and Muslim view that evil and suffering were not created by God but were introduced into the world from Man's pride. Thus, invalidating the view espoused by others that God created evil or it just happens

[Show Me the Wire]

This has often been cited about how the polytheists did from time to time believe there was only one God. Another famous one is the belief that Vergil prophesised the coming of Jesus in one of his famed eclogues. Both unfortunately were false. In the case of this Pharoh, he actual took a step back. Aton was basically a sun god, which generally is the most primitive type of gods peoples have landed on.
...........................

Back on point though, the argument you have presented is a classic one. Can right and wrong exist without God. You and Tom follow that path of the church fathers and say no. I don't and follow the path that right and wrong could exist without a God. Of course you would have to presume people would be here without a God, but let's leave that be.

I gave the examples of other cultures to show they had right and wrong without any knowledge of God. Its not a perfect answer, but in the end, this debate has no right or wrong answer because like the very existance of God, it cannot be proven, it can only be believed. I can believe in God and yet believe that people can develop these concepts on their own. Too often our species has claimed that something is right because God says so, and it turns out such things aren't so right after all. The scriptures can help teach us right and wrong, but in the end, its up to us.

Let me clarify. It is difficult to convey thoughts through a keyboard. My references to polytheists and monotheists were not meant to justify Jesus, but to illustrate Tom's post 112 and your post 113.

Man has believed in some superior being to him and acknowledging this fact does not equate to equating their dieties or idea of a god to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If there is no God, it is illogical for us to behave differently than any other created animal. As evolution shows we should only be governed by the laws of nature relating to the survival of the fittest.

[boxcar]

I gave the examples of other cultures to show they had right and wrong without any knowledge of God. Its not a perfect answer, but in the end, this debate has no right or wrong answer because like the very existance of God, it cannot be proven, it can only be believed. I can believe in God and yet believe that people can develop these concepts on their own. Too often our species has claimed that something is right because God says so, and it turns out such things aren't so right after all. The scriptures can help teach us right and wrong, but in the end, its up to us.

You're overlooking the third type of God-ordained revelation, i.e. Intuitive.

Rom 1:18; 2:12-16

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them... 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
NASB

God has given all mankind a three-fold witness of himself: Special Revelation (the Word of God in the bible), Natural Revelation (his creation) and Intuitive Revelation (all that which is self-evident within each of us).

Boxcar

[OTM Al]

It is very interesting that, Eastern philosophies teach "Knowledge" let evil into the world. The major Eastern philosphies accept the idea man brought evil into the world through man’s ignorance. This ignorance of man gives rise to false knowledge, and harmful desires. Sounds very familiar to the concept of Adam and Eve seeking the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

So according to this practically universal concept (even the ancient Mayan culture buys into this idea) evil entered into the world through Man's attempt to obtain knowledge.

To me this validates the Jewish, Christian and Muslim view that evil and suffering were not created by God but were introduced into the world from Man's pride. Thus, invalidating the view espoused by others that God created evil or it just happens

Yes, there are common themes out there aren't there. I would say the same thing to this as I do to the whole Satan concept. This is sluffing off the blame for misdeeds and worse, by invalidating searches for knowledge, those in power can keep their followers ignorant and under control. Acts can be considered good or evil but knowledge is quite neutral. It is what it is. How we use it of course matters, but it of itself is not the root of evil. Were knowledge evil, would we not actively be employing evil by typing on these very computers, which were created from knowledge well beyond that of our ancestors?

People fear the new. Some things we have learned over time can seem quite scary, but if we believe in God, then these things we have learned were put there by him were they not? And I wouldn't say evil just happens. It is the consequence of our choices. We are to blame at least in part, for bad things just as we are to "blame" for the good.

I think your idea of evolution is that which is shown by the strictly creationist side of the debate. There is much more to it than that. Evolution is adaptation. Species don't suddenly get wiped out by some survival of the fittest war, they evolve and change to better fit their environment (and i always ask those who take the strict creationist bent, that doesn't this ability to adapt show even greater foresight and power than simply plopping down a bunch of creatures that are what they are and can be no more?), a process which takes a very long time. I could argue that the human species employs concepts of good and evil solely to enable us to survive. Do what is good, and we can continue, but do what is evil, you risk the whole group. So I say its very logical to act in such a way. It is a higher level of adaptation than other animals have achieved.

[Show Me the Wire]

.......
I gave the examples of other cultures to show they had right and wrong without any knowledge of God. Its not a perfect answer, but in the end, this debate has no right or wrong answer because like the very existance of God, it cannot be proven, it can only be believed. I can believe in God and yet believe that people can develop these concepts on their own. Too often our species has claimed that something is right because God says so, and it turns out such things aren't so right after all. The scriptures can help teach us right and wrong, but in the end, its up to us.


There are so many thoughts exploding at one time on this thread. In my other responses.

But even other cultures (eastern philosophies) that do not believe in the idea of God as understood in the Bible, they believe man became evil through false knowledge and harmful desires.


The beliefs of these cultures you use as examples tend to refute your point about not believing in some force superior to man. In some cultures it is a personal god, and others some force or energy.

I agree some philosophies do not really address creation, for example Buddhism. But even in Buddhism left over Karma from the current god realm, brings forth creation of humans. The created force always existed, sort of like how the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob always was and always will be.

Also, your quote above echoes the eastern teaching and belief system that salvation comes from Man, not a god, to figure out what is right and wrong through "perfect knowledge". In other words we screwed up the world with false knowledge and wrong desires, but through our false knowledge we will obtain true knowledge. Scary idea.


Now we are talking about salvation, which is indeed another hefty subject.

[boxcar]

Yes, there are common themes out there aren't there. I would say the same thing to this as I do to the whole Satan concept. This is sluffing off the blame for misdeeds and worse, by invalidating searches for knowledge, those in power can keep their followers ignorant and under control. Acts can be considered good or evil but knowledge is quite neutral. It is what it is. How we use it of course matters, but it of itself is not the root of evil. Were knowledge evil, would we not actively be employing evil by typing on these very computers, which were created from knowledge well beyond that of our ancestors?

The objects of our knowledge are good, evil or amoral. If this isn't true, why do most parents protect their children, for example, from knowledge of that which is evil? Or why does the movie industry alert parents by rating movies that may contain "unsuitable" (evil) material for viewing by children?

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

OTN Al;

My idea of evolution is not creationist. I believe in science, but I believe in the personal Creator God. They are not mutually exclusive. The label creationist does not invalidate the logic about being subject to the laws of survival of nature.

If there is no God it is illogical to act as if one existed. If there is no spritual and blood connection to my fellow man, why shouldn't I take advantage of him, so what if I cause him harm or murder him?

Without the spiritual and herditary connection we should only be subjected to the laws of nature, where the fittest survive and adapt. The easiest way to survive is to take advantage of the weaker ones and discard the defective.

Any other behavior is illogical.

I think our issue is not if God exists, but how you and I define God.

[OTM Al]

Now we are talking about salvation, which is indeed another hefty subject.

Indeed! :) This one is interesting enough to discuss. I think we should let that one go. Otherwise we will never get our work done and I have my Latin to attend today as well. Anyway, as usual, a pleasure discussing. Perhaps we can address some more tomorrow with fresh minds.

[robert99]

They have enough problems with past events:

Saturday Pope Benedict rehabilitated a traditionalist bishop who denies the Holocaust, despite warnings from Jewish leaders that it would seriously harm Catholic-Jewish relations and foment anti-Semitism.

Pope Benedict XVI's decision to promote a pastor who called Hurricane Katrina divine punishment for sin in New Orleans was criticized by Austrian priests and church groups on Sunday.

The Vatican announced Saturday that the Pope has tapped the Rev. Gerhard Maria Wagner, 54, to be auxiliary bishop in Linz, the capital of Upper Austria province. Wagner caused a stir in 2005 when he was quoted as saying that he was convinced that the death and destruction of Hurricane Katrina earlier that year was "divine retribution" for tolerance of homosexuals and laid-back sexual attitudes in New Orleans.

First the Muslims, now the Catholics.

[Show Me the Wire]

robert99:

Thread drift alert. What relevance does your post have to this thread?

[OTM Al]

If there is no God it is illogical to act as if one existed. If there is no spritual and blood connection to my fellow man, why shouldn't I take advantage of him, so what if I cause him harm or murder him?

Without the spiritual and herditary connection we should only be subjected to the laws of nature, where the fittest survive and adapt. The easiest way to survive is to take advantage of the weaker ones and discard the defective.

Any other behavior is illogical.

You know, this reminds me of a famous arguement on why you should believe in God based on logic. I believe this was one that was presented by Rene Descarte. Goes something like this:

1) There are 2 possible states of nature, there is a God or there isn't.
2) Man has two possible options, to believe in God or not
3) If there is no God, then believing or not will give the same result
4) If there is a God and you believe, you will be rewarded. If you do not believe you will be punished.
5) Therefore, it is better to believe.

So there you go. A logical reason to believe. Of course I believe the phrase "logical reason to believe" may be an oxymoron, but all the same I think this one does a fair job of showing that there can be a reason to behave the way we do with regard to right and wrong, even were there not a God.

[hcap]

Let me clarify. It is difficult to convey thoughts through a keyboard.

.......If there is no God, it is illogical for us to behave differently than any other created animal. As evolution shows we should only be governed by the laws of nature relating to the survival of the fittest.I tried to show that within all of us except for a small minority, there are certain "built-ins". I used young children and pets as illustrations of empathy and conscience we experience as we bond and interact. Expanding those built-ins, and using them in daily life, is I think major part of the journey.

The problem of whether or not God put those emotional sense organs in us, and yes other social animals, is not answerable intellectually. What is important is to cultivate our ability to really understand the universe using an emotional sense as well as a thinking sense. Later on as we grow, the belief in God or no God may be refined and understood by more than just words.

Words themselves are a double edged sword. What exactly do each of mean when we use God in a sentence? I will assume that many others here have a very strong emotional faith as well as an intellectual faith. It is not possible for us to judge others emotional aspect of their belief systems accurately-particularly over the internet. Words are a poor vehichle to express ones belief system emotionally.

In the same way internally, within oneself words get substituted for a truer larger picture. We tend to replay thoughts expressed in words others have formulated as shortcuts for real depth of understanding. We confuse the map for the territory. We argue about maps drawn up over millennia. Past down somewhat intact by very enlightened and not so enlightened people, but distorted as well, by the human hand, as though we could actually march off to religious wars on the illustrated road map we each stand on. Either defending or expanding, each our own separately drawn guide to the universe. If you momentarily try to hold onto the word God in consciousness briefly without allowing an internal dialogue to ensue endlessly, sometimes a brief glimpse of the real territory is visible.

Words can on the other hand be quite useful in establishing a an allegorical or symbolic model that bypasses the solely intellectual approach to understanding these issues. Throughout history myths and legends resonate with something in us. I believe they resonate with other "built-ins" that are kind of undeveloped in most, but respond to things like poetry,and verbal images. All great religious traditions employ these verbal tools as teaching devices. Parables, or stories of exodus or the flood or the temptations of Jesus, are understandable as allegorical pointers as well as distorted or not distorted historical points of contention. True literally, or false literally is not the overriding issue.

All of us to a certain extent use these "built-ins". With them humanitarian events have occured in many diverse cultures. As I mentioned holding a word in mind briefly may be more direct than endless internal intellectual conversations. When you briefly hold "love" or "kindness" in your consciousness, does your belief or non belief in a supreme being take center stage or do you really appreciate those words beyond the map?

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM Al:

That is not my argument at all in this matter. What you need to believe in God is faith not logic.

My question and argument relates to the incorporated belief system and the logical actions for the belief system.

My argument is based on actions and why would man act a certain way. My argument is that it is illogical for man to act like God exists if there is no God.

My argument is if a person does not believe in a superior being or in a superior force to man and/or beleives there is no life after physical death, why would someone act illogically. By the above statement, I am refering to the specific behavior of a person that does not believe in a higher diety, cosmic force, etc..

Specifically why act illogicly as riight or wrong exists, to benefit others when there is no reason to behave in any manner, except to benefit yourself. Any act that benefits you is the only correct action, any other action contrary to self- benefit is illogical.

Feel free to demonstrate the reason this specific individual is logical by acting contrary to self interest.

To answer my own question, I can think of one reason why man might act a certain way. A chemical reaction might be the cause. Reasons do not have to be logical.

[hcap]

My argument is based on actions and why would man act a certain way. My argument is that it is illogical for man to act like God exists if there is no God.
Empathy and conscience happen without logic. As I have argued many many times. They happen before the concept or belief for God arises. Many times true feelings of both of these emotional sense organs, a few moments later gets run thru' your belief system emotionally and intellectually.

[Show Me the Wire]

hcap:

I have no idea what concept you are trying to convey.

Especially with this statement: "When you briefly hold "love" or "kindness" in your consciousness, does your belief or non belief in a supreme being take center stage or do you really appreciate those words beyond the map?"

When I meditate on God, I think of pure love and praise and glory that is due him for the goodness of creation and when I meditate on love I dwell on thoughts regarding the Goodness and Holiness of God.

So the little I grasp of your post, I seem to understand I am on the map. If I am, that is where I prefer to be.

[Show Me the Wire]

Empathy and conscience happen without logic. As I have argued many many times. They happen before the concept or belief for God arises. Many times true feelings of both of these emotional sense organs, a few moments later gets run thru' your belief system emotionally and intellectually.


You will receive no argument from me on that point. That "logic" of imprinted or inspired morals is a classical argument for the existence of God. It had to come from the Creator, since we are born in innocence, right?

But you wander astray again. Our intellectual discourse is about after our belief system is established and we with our knowledge declare there is no God, we are just a cosmic accident and the actions taken relating to this specific non-belief system.

We are talking about the logic or illogic of particular behavior or acts against self-interest, at least I am.

[hcap]

I have no idea what concept you are trying to convey.
......So the little I grasp of your post, I seem to understand I am on the map. If I am, that is where I prefer to be.

Simple. And I thought I was very clear. The concepts of conscience and empathy can be supported by both the evolutionary model and God model. In the evolutionary model, social animals including us evolved these "sense organs" to live harmoniously within a group and neighboring groups. Fitness is enhanced by a properly functioning social organization. Can we use the feelings correctly? Not all the time. Most often we ignore them. On the other hand belief in God answers the question as well. And how that is applied in real world events is often ignored by many as well.

We can accept either model, or some fusion of both. The map and the territory analogy is from a famous linguistics professor. It shows that language is always with us, and limits our thought processes. You may meditate on God, but if you honestly examine your meditation, extraneous thought arise that are like noise between clear radio stations. I think if you observe yourself during meditation inner conversations happen. You may get a non-verbal insight (direct experience of God) and degrade that pure insight by arguing with yourself. Actually I think properly directed inner conversations may be useful. My exercise is designed to bypass the noise, and experience directly what is under those words-the territory. Love and empathy can by experienced directly by many regardless of their belief system. Agnostics, atheists, and multi-deity ancient cultures included.
But you wander astray again. Our intellectual discourse is about after our belief system is established and we with our knowledge declare there is no God, we are just a cosmic accident and the actions taken relating to this specific non-belief system.

We are talking about the logic or illogic of particular behavior or acts against self-interest, at least I am.Feelings for other humans and yes animals are not against so called self interest. Herds of cattle, a flock of birds, packs of dogs and wolves, human cultures, yes even human-cat bondings are part of social evolution. These traits may be passed on in the genetic makeup because of beneficial survival skills. Do you believe that animals have religious or non-religious belief systems? Do you have any pets? Tell me that dogs don't have empathy. Or cats?

I think that's why we have made them part of our lives.

I think that our belief systems are an ongoing Work. Yes many by adulthood have drawn conclusions. But that very process limits what is possible.

Continuing the journey is always in front of you

[Show Me the Wire]

I will be happy to tell you dogs and cats do not have empathy. They have instincts for survival and some of that instinct is protection and health of the pack. Dogs have a keen instinctual sense that something is amiss, but they do not feel empathy nor other human emotions. It is man's little quirk to humanize animals by labeling some instictive animal behavior as a human emotion.

Yes, I own pets always had dogs and still do. Interacting with a dog stimulates a chemical reaction in our brains that relate to the emotions of love and child rearing. That is our problem not the dogs.

[Grits]

Hcap stated: All of us to a certain extent use these "built-ins". With them humanitarian events have occured in many diverse cultures. As I mentioned holding a word in mind briefly may be more direct than endless internal intellectual conversations. When you briefly hold "love" or "kindness" in your consciousness, does your belief or non belief in a supreme being take center stage or do you really appreciate those words beyond the map?

I'm far, far more simple than you guys, and it bothers me not, in being so. Still, this is an outstanding, tremendously interesting thread. And Hcap, you, for me, have shown remarkable ability in expressing your points. With that, instead of quoting your post in its entirely, I'll post only this final comment because in it, I think you have spoken volumes. The points of a superior being can be argued intellectually forever. But those points don't hold the value of actions that move as a consequence of what lies within each of us--which is nothing more than an unspoken word that our heart feels, and our mind and eyes see. And those actions carry us far beyond all intellectual debate.

****************

Show Me The Wire stated: To answer my own question, I can think of one reason why man might act a certain way. A chemical reaction might be the cause. Reasons do not have to be logical.

Again, an excellent observation on mankind and, ultimately, how we are made. There is a small book out right now, "The Power of Kindness." Not written by a theologian, instead, written by a psychologist. Its a fine book, one worth much more than its small price.

****************

OTMAL stated: People fear the new. Some things we have learned over time can seem quite scary, but if we believe in God, then these things we have learned were put there by him were they not? And I wouldn't say evil just happens. It is the consequence of our choices. We are to blame at least in part, for bad things just as we are to "blame" for the good.

OTMAL, your post, as well, a fine one. Still, I believe, not all that happens to us is a result of our choices--particularly the bad. Yes, we can push the envelope, but there are life experiences, for whatever reasons we do not know, nor may they ever be revealed to us, but they are not a result of poor choices on our part.

Have you ever read the classic, Rabbi Harold Kushner's, When Bad Things Happen To Good People? A bestseller worldwide for decades.

The lesson one can learn with bad things, or what, at the time, may be perceived as such (and even the good things as well) is our ability to understand, to realize, it is not we that are chosen. From my experience it is the other way around, the choosing is ours, it lies in us alone. The choosing to listen.

To believe as stated, our faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

SMTW, my dog DOES, beyond any and all doubt have emotion. They are numerous and varied--from empathy, to joy, to love, and to SPITE! She has this last one down pat. LOLOL

I'm sorry to interrupt, you all are expressing some thought provoking dialogue that is well worth reading. Thank you all for writing.:ThmbUp:

[hcap]

Many pre-Christian philosophers dealt with these issues
Altruism is talked about frequently.

China had a pretty sophisticated code of ethics and morality
Confucius....

Perhaps his most famous teaching was the Golden Rule stated in the negative form, often called the silver rule:

子貢問曰、有一言、而可以終身行之者乎。子曰、其恕乎、己所 不欲、勿施於人。
Adept Kung asked: "Is there any one word that could guide a person throughout life?"
The Master replied: "How about 'shu' [reciprocity]: never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself?"
Analects XV.24, tr. David Hinton


Rén, "benevolence, charity, humanity, love," kindness. The fundamental virtue of Confucianism. Confucius defines it as "Aì rén," "love others."
[Analects XII:22]

Yì, "right conduct, morality, duty to one's neighbor," righteousness.

Lì, "profit, gain, advantage": NOT a proper motive for actions affecting others. The idea that profit is the source of temptation to do wrong is the Confucian ground of the later official disparagment of commerce and industry.
The Master said, "The gentleman (chün tzu, ) understands yì. The small/mean man (hsiao-jen, ) understands lì." [Analects IV:16]



.................................................. .....................
How did Confucius arrive at this without the single deity Christian model?

[hcap]

SMTW, my dog DOES, beyond any and all doubt have emotion. They are numerous and varied--from empathy, to joy, to love, and to SPITE! She has this last one down pat. LOLOLI would be interested in other opinions on this very point. It requires an emotional response as well as an intellectual.
I can think of one reason why man might act a certain way. A chemical reaction might be the cause. Reasons do not have to be logical.
Whether or not chemicals affect our behavior is a settled case. Yes they do. All sorts of physical functions do. But so does reflection and emotions, upbringing and early cultural imprinting. Not all is chemical mechanical pre-determination. I believe it is a personal choice to go beyond knee jerk mechanicalness and reach out to a wider consciousness.

Michelangelos' image of Adam lazily reaching out to God sort of sums it up well.

http://4umi.com/image/art/michelangelo/Adam.jpg


And SMTW, I am supprised that you would use this philosophical argument. Sort of devalues the entire non-materialistic God argument.

So there, I take the side of consciousness and you vote materialistic :lol:

[Show Me the Wire]

Grits:

I am humbled you think our discussion is thought provoking. I believe the spite part regarding your dog :D

hcap:

Why attack Christianity, through singling it out, by saying, "How did Confucius arrive at this without the single deity Christian model?"

Why not say how did Confucius come to this conclusion without the single diety model of Islam or Judaism?

I can answer how Confucius came to these revelations. Through Divine inspiration.

I specifically, kept my discussion regarding suffering and belief in a Creator on the generic level.

The belief in a single deity goes back to the Jewish story of Creation, Noah and Abraham. Christians did not write the book of Genesis, but somebody older than Confucius told the story of a single deity and man's disobedience to the Creator causing evil to come into the world.

Again, it is powerful evidence that the major religions and major Eastern Philosophies, as well as the Mayans taught and believed evil entered into the world through man’s attempt to obtain “Knowledge” of good and evil.

Most of us are familiar with a game like telephone, where one person tells a story and then it is repeated by another person to another and so on. Ultimately the story changes radically that it is nothing like the original story.

If you think in terms of the telephone game, about the story of evil being transmitted down the ages over a vast distance, it really had to be a powerful truth about man’s’ seeking of knowledge causing evil to enter the world.

It seems though you are implying the standard for truth is how old is the truth. So if we want to determine truth according to how old the belief is, we must accept the belief in a siingle Diety, which is chronicled in Genesis. Nothing is older than the beginning, not even Confucius.

[Show Me the Wire]

Acknowledging that I am comprised of body, as well as soul, does not mean I support predetermination of any sort.

[toetoe]

Al,

If this isn't too Cartesian, allow me ...


Four types of people in your life:

* Those that love you for the wrong reasons

* Those that love you for the right reasons

* Those that hate you for the wrong reasons

* Those that hate you for the right reasons


Which group should worry you ?

[hcap]

Grits:

I am humbled you think our discussion is thought provoking. I believe the spite part regarding your dog :D

hcap:

Why attack Christianity, through singling it out, by saying, "How did Confucius arrive at this without the single deity Christian model?"

Ok, I will amend that. Make it Abrahamic.
It was not my intention to "attack Christianity"


I can answer how Confucius came to these revelations. Through Divine inspiration.

Ok and I can say using evolutionary cultivated "built-ins". Once again there is no clear proof for either argument. Although the evolutionary theory does not require the supernatural. Score one for Occams' Razor

I specifically, kept my discussion regarding suffering and belief in a Creator on the generic level.

The belief in a single deity goes back to the Jewish story of Creation, Noah and Abraham. Christians did not write the book of Genesis, but somebody older than Confucius told the story of a single deity and man's disobedience to the Creator causing evil to come into the world.

Again, it is powerful evidence that the major religions and major Eastern Philosophies, as well as the Mayans taught and believed evil entered into the world through man’s attempt to obtain “Knowledge” of good and evil.

Major Eastern Philosophies? Which ones? Many talk about illusion (Maya) or the cycle of suffering. The major Eastern religions and teachings, tend to not focus directly on the good/evil question other than indicating a false duality in that kind of world picture. Not saying there aren't any teachings that concern themselves with the good/evil question, but for every one that does there are are 10 others talking about other issues.

Most of us are familiar with a game like telephone, where one person tells a story and then it is repeated by another person to another and so on. Ultimately the story changes radically that it is nothing like the original story.

If you think in terms of the telephone game, about the story of evil being transmitted down the ages over a vast distance, it really had to be a powerful truth about man’s’ seeking of knowledge causing evil to enter the world.

But the problem is the DISTORTION at the end of the line. All scriptures suffer from this. The idea of good and evil is in fact very powerful, but it resonates not because of external events-which I agree can be horrible, but because the proper realm of good and evil is within us. And most of us feel this. It is lack of understanding of a truer reality, a much larger and in many cases a non-verbal reality that is what is evil. In Biblical terms not knowing God. Ignorance is evil.

It seems though you are implying the standard for truth is how old is the truth. So if we want to determine truth according to how old the belief is, we must accept the belief in a siingle Diety, which is chronicled in Genesis. Nothing is older than the beginning, not even Confucius

There are civilizations older Some early ones in the Indus valley go back over 8,000 years. Oral traditions were passed down thru the ages and recorded in the Vedas. Another set of scriptures that talk about proper conduct and have sense of morality. Are you going to tell me this is fact an 8,000 year old civilization failed due to no awareness of Abrahamic religions? Divine Revelation? But also depends on what you mean by "Divine" .I believe there are no definitive answers other than considering all ends of the debate and trying to reconcile WHAT Appear to be direct opposites. I believe the emotional parts of our being if developed past simple love/hate dualities can be helpful.

[hcap]

Al,

If this isn't too Cartesian, allow me ...


Four types of people in your life:

* Those that love you for the wrong reasons

* Those that love you for the right reasons

* Those that hate you for the wrong reasons

* Those that hate you for the right reasons


Which group should worry you ?Another puzzle by the PuzzleMeister? I am not really sure of the point of these 4 questions. And am at a loss for words. As hard as THAT is to believe :jump:
Ok you tell us and why.

BTW, Puzzle Mania although 2 words is a good rhyme for Musslemania.

[Show Me the Wire]

Major Eastern Philosophies? Which ones? Many talk about illusion (Maya) or the cycle of suffering. The major Eastern religions and teachings, tend to not focus directly on the good/evil question other than indicating a false duality in that kind of world picture. Not saying there aren't any teachings that concern themselves with the good/evil question, but for every one that does there are are 10 others talking about other issues.

Taoism, Buddhism Hinduism, Confucianism, etc. tell how evil entered into the world through man's seeking of knowledge. As I stated in prior posts, according to Eastern thought Man's quest for knowledge led to false knowledge and false desires.

This is the salient point all the major religions and major Eastern philosophies all accept the idea evil entered into the world through man.

How salvation is acquired through the belief systems or how one deals with suffering is another matter entirely.

Evil entered into the world through Man's desire for knowledge so sayeth Judiaism, Christianity, Islam, Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, etc


There are civilizations older Some early ones in the Indus valley go back over 8,000 years. Oral traditions were passed down thru the ages and recorded in the Vedas. Another set of scriptures that talk about proper conduct and have sense of morality. Are you going to tell me this is fact an 8,000 year old civilization failed due to no awareness of Abrahamic religions? Divine Revelation? But also depends on what you mean by "Divine"

Where have I said any culture failed or should have failed due to no awareness of the Abrahamic God? No where.

On the contrary I said the concept of evil entering the world through man's desire for knowledge of good and evil Kowledge survived intact throughout the ages and over vast migrations out of Africa to other continents. I take it a given you believe that Asia, the East, was populated through migration out of Africa and not spontaneously from nothing. Therefore, they took their knowledge of the creation of evil with them to Asia, the knowledge learned from common forefathers.

What I did say your implied test of age, (older equals more validity) would have to support the idea of a single Diety as that is the oldest account.

[Show Me the Wire]

If I may reply to your equation toetoe. I choose- Those that love you for the wrong reasons as the group that should worry me.

[hcap]

Taoism, Buddhism Hinduism, Confucianism, etc. tell how evil entered into the world through man's seeking of knowledge. As I stated in prior posts, according to Eastern thought Man's quest for knowledge led to false knowledge and false desires.

SWTW,

You just repeated your asseritions. No references cited. You are very wrong.


1)-Buddhism

http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/evil.htm

"Evil as External Force

Some religions teach that evil is a force outside ourselves that seduces us into sin. This force is sometimes thought to be generated by Satan or various demons. The faithful are encouraged to seek strength outside themselves to fight evil, by looking to God.

The Buddha's teaching could not be more different --

"By oneself, indeed, is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself, indeed, is one purified. Purity and impurity depend on oneself. No one purifies another." (Dhammapada, chapter 12, verse 165)

Buddhism teaches us that evil is something we create, not something we are or some outside force that infects us."

20-Taoism

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2001/06/What-Taoists-Believe.aspx

"Why Evil?
To understand the Taoist notion of good and evil, it is important to distinguish between the "concept" of evil versus the "reality" of evil.

As a concept, Taoist do not hold the position of good against evil; rather they see the interdependence of all dualities. So when one labels something as a good, one automatically creates evil. That is, all concepts necessarily are based on one aspect vs. another; if a concept were to have only one aspect, it would be nonsensical.

3)-Confuscism

Not much on the origins oif evil. Mostly on moral code and the "superior man vs the inferior. Much has to do with inner being and psychology

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:VlwRaLWPWxUJ:www.pinkmonkey.com/dl/library1/book0611.pdf+Confucian+Analects%2Bevil&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us

"Fan Ch’ih rambling with the Master under the trees about the rain altars, said, “I venture to ask how to exalt virtue, to correct cherished evil, and to discover de-lusions.”
The Master said, “Truly a good question!
“If doing what is to be done be made the first business, and success a secon-dary consideration:-is not this the way to exalt virtue? To assail one’s own wicked-ness and not assail that of others;-is not this the way to correct cherished evil?

4)-Hindism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil_in_Hinduism

"Hindu answers to the problem of evil are different from most answers offered in Western philosophy, partly because the problem of evil within Hindu thought is differently structured than Western traditions, mainly Abrahamic traditions.

In the Hindu tradition the problem of evil is phrased as the Problem of Injustice. This problem can be considered in the following manner:

God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Just. Yet injustice is observed to persist in the world. How is this possible?

In the Advaita school of Vedanta, this problem is dealt with in detail by Sankara in his commentary on the Brahma Sutras, 2.1.34-36:

Brahma Sutra 2.1.34: "No partiality and cruelty (can be charged against God) because of (His) taking other factors into consideration."

Sankara's commentary explains that God cannot be charged with partiality or cruelty (i.e. injustice) on account of his taking the factors of virtuous and vicious actions (Karma) performed by an individual in previous lives. If an individual experiences pleasure or pain in this life, it is due to virtuous or vicious action (Karma) done by that individual in a past life.

Brahma Sutra 2.1.35: "If it be argued that it is not possible (to take Karma into consideration in the beginning), since the fruits of work remain still undifferentiated, then we say, no, since the transmigratory state has no beginning."

The opponent now argues that there could have been no "previous birth" at the very beginning of creation, before which Karma could not have existed. Sankara replies that it is not so, for the number of creation cycles is beginningless, vide the next verse:

Brahma Sutra 2.1.36: "Moreover, this is logical, and (so) it is met with (in the scriptures)."

Sankara provides references from the Vedas concerning the beginninglessness of Creation: "The Ordainer created the sun and moon like those of previous cycles" (Rig Veda 10.190.3). This shows the existence of earlier cycles of creation, and hence the number of creation cycles is beginningless.

Thus Sankara's resolution to the Problem of Injustice is that the existence of injustice in the world is only apparent, for one merely reaps the results of one's moral actions sown in a past life, which is compatible with the Justness of an Omniscient and Omnipotent God.

On the higher level of Existence, however, there is no evil or good, since these are dependent mainly on temporal circumstances. Hence a jnani, one who has realized his true nature, is beyond such dualistic notions.

.................................................. ........................

And even within Christianity there is not 100% agreement on your version of good vs evil.

[hcap]

Acknowledging that I am comprised of body, as well as soul, does not mean I support predetermination of any sort.
But you used it as a simplistic way to explain away the possibility that evolution successfully created social bonds that were a beneficial cultural and perhaps genetic adaption.

[Show Me the Wire]

Again, hcap. The question and answer relate to how did evil originate. Not how evil is viewed. How evil is viewed or understood is an entirely different issue as I stated earlier.

You want a reference, about Eastern beliefs how evil originated, here is one of many: http://books.google.com/books?id=N_f3nzhHg8cC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=Tao+creation+of+evil&source=web&ots=OMU-7-eS1G&sig=W5Sm2F1JnZkjx8xq1f_Khv4EZmE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA148,M1


You want to refute my point on the origin of evil and the common link to knowledge do so, but spare us from your tiresome exercise of moving the target to a tangental issue,

[OTM Al]

The concept of evil originated the same time as the concept of good. One cannot exist as a concept without the other. To be good or to act for good has no meaning unless there is an alternate available. To put in a biblical context, all this is expressed in the Eden story. Before "the fall" some would say that Adam and Eve lived in a state of bliss, but I would say that's a bad interpretation. They lived in a state of blissful ignorance. They could have no concept of good and evil. They simply existed. In fact how could one even say that they did evil by defying God as they would have no idea whatsoever what that meant. Only by chosing free will could the concepts of good and evil take on any meaning. So I would say evil came to exist with good when we as a species figured out the difference.

[Show Me the Wire]

So OTM Al I understand you to say, God gave man a choice to either remain blissfully ignorant or to choose free will. Man chose free will, along with free will came hardship.

Man is totally culpable for his own fate, as no intervening party had been involved.

I am correct in my understanding?

[OTM Al]

So OTM Al I understand you to say, God gave man a choice to either remain blissfully ignorant or to choose free will. Man chose free will, along with free will came hardship.

Man is totally culpable for his own fate, as no intervening party had been involved.

I am correct in my understanding?

Basically that is my interpretation of the story, although culpable has a bit of a strong connotation. In the story, God clearly made that choice available, otherwise he wouldn't have put the tree there. From the point of view of a creator, I find it brilliant. By allowing man to make this choice, he gave man ability to become something more than all the other animals. Man didn't have to make that choice, but it was made. Free will was given and thus the ability to grow.

We still have the sepent to deal with, but as I've said before, man has always had a way for sluffing off blame for bad things. Serpents represent a predator and danger to primative man and pre-man if you will. Some anthropologists believe that one of the very first developed words may have been a warning word to tell the others that a predator like a serpent was in the neighborhood. Evidently primates have a very distinct call when they see a snake.

[hcap]

Again, hcap. The question and answer relate to how did evil originate. Not how evil is viewed. How evil is viewed or understood is an entirely different issue as I stated earlier.

You want a reference, about Eastern beliefs how evil originated, here is one of many: http://books.google.com/books?id=N_f3nzhHg8cC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=Tao+creation+of+evil&source=web&ots=OMU-7-eS1G&sig=W5Sm2F1JnZkjx8xq1f_Khv4EZmE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA148,M1..

You want to refute my point on the origin of evil and the common link to knowledge do so, but spare us from your tiresome exercise of moving the target to a tangental issue,
You cannot say Eatsern religions take a a similar view to evil as westerns do

Taoism, Buddhism Hinduism, Confucianism, etc. tell how evil entered into the world through man's seeking of knowledge. As I stated in prior posts, according to Eastern thought Man's quest for knowledge led to false knowledge and false desires.


Not quest for knowledge.
Misunderstanding of knowledge.
From you source...

"Herein lies the Oriental explanation of the emergence of evil.
It is entirely the creation of man. Practically all the Indian systems Buddhism included, and Taoism in China trace the appearance of evil to mans' ignorance"

Try another source. This is not a "tangential issue.

[Show Me the Wire]

hcap:

You can read and comprehend. The source I referred to clearly states that evil is created by man and evil is linked to knowledge. That is all I am saying.

This is the basic belief of Western Religion, God did not create evil and let it loose upon man. Man created evil through his acts relating to knowledge.

Quest for Knowledge, misunderstanding of knowledge both substantially the same.

[boxcar]

The concept of evil originated the same time as the concept of good. One cannot exist as a concept without the other. To be good or to act for good has no meaning unless there is an alternate available. To put in a biblical context, all this is expressed in the Eden story. Before "the fall" some would say that Adam and Eve lived in a state of bliss, but I would say that's a bad interpretation. They lived in a state of blissful ignorance. They could have no concept of good and evil. They simply existed. In fact how could one even say that they did evil by defying God as they would have no idea whatsoever what that meant. Only by chosing free will could the concepts of good and evil take on any meaning. So I would say evil came to exist with good when we as a species figured out the difference.

Prior to the Fall, man did not choose free will. Adam and Eve's will was entirely free at creation, for it was not in bondage to a sin nature. However, after the Fall, that's entirely different story. Man is enslaved to his sin nature.

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

hcap has repeatedly said Eastern philosophy has different understanding of evil than the main Western religions. I disagree with this simplistic approach.

Both belief systems trace the entering of evil into the physical world through man and knowledge. Now this is where it becomes interesting.

The Book of Genesis relates, prior to the introduction of evil, that man was created in both the "image" and "likeness" of God. It is widely accepted that Image relates to man being self-aware, man has been given the gift of being somebody and not something (grit's dog) and Likeness relates to intellect, rational thought, free will (ability to make choices).

Man through exercise of free will divided himself. He kept the self-awareness intact, but through knowledge he let evil into the world and obtained what could be described as imperfect knowledge of what is good and what is evil.

Eastern philosophy teaches man created the problem, evil, through imperfect knowledge, leading to false knowledge and desires. Therefore, man can save himself from evil, false knowledge and desires, through acquiring true (perfect) knowledge by discipline of body (matter) and thought.

Main stream Christianity, teaches that this house divided, the likeness can be reconciled as follows: The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection "in seeking and loving what is true and good." (Catechism of The Catholic Church).

Of course for main stream Christianity the reason why man can seek the true knowledge of good and evil is Christ. By his passion Christ defeated the evil one. The evil one through deceit caused man to injure man's likeness to God. He merited for us the new life in the Holy Spirit. His grace restores what sin had damaged in us (likeness to God through imperfect knowledge).

Eastern philosophy, not withstanding hcap’s assertions, holds very similar views in regards to the cause of evil (Man) and how to defeat evil (perfect knowledge). Not surprising though, as the Eastern cultures had the same forefathers as the Western Cultures.

The dispute is how you obtain perfect knowledge (salvation from evil) of what is truly good and truly evil. Can man do it alone or does man need a saving God?

[hcap]

hcap has repeatedly said Eastern philosophy has different understanding of evil than the main Western religions. I disagree with this simplistic approach.

Both belief systems trace the entering of evil into the physical world through man and knowledge. Now this is where it becomes interesting.
Both words "Man" and "Knowledge" are words. The concepts beyond the words are very different.And once again according to eastern thought EVIL DOES NOT ENTER INTO THE PHYSICAL WORLD. It is an internal struggle not an external one. Satan is not a real figure.
The Book of Genesis relates, prior to the introduction of evil, that man was created in both the "image" and "likeness" of God. It is widely accepted that Image relates to man being self-aware, man has been given the gift of being somebody and not something (grit's dog) and Likeness relates to intellect, rational thought, free will (ability to make choices).The intellect is not all it is cracked up to be. In fact it is a stumbling block to understanding the nature of oneself, the universe and God. Although it is quite useful in understanding many things, the intellect is one of the meanings of "old wine skins" in the passage about pouring NEW wine into old wine skins. Your attempts to equate the concepts of evil in eastern and western thought is just that. Again, I will point out that eastern thought for the most part, does not concern itself with evil as an external force and certainly does not personify it as a living entity. Mostly evil is a result of ignorance through not trying for correct knowledge-not due to as you have said 2 posts back ...."Quest for Knowledge, misunderstanding of knowledge both substantially the same"
Man through exercise of free will divided himself. He kept the self-awareness intact, but through knowledge he let evil into the world and obtained what could be described as imperfect knowledge of what is good and what is evil.
Once again eastern thought does not talk about evil as an external force. All so-called demons and evil modalities are all contained within. And are obstacles to one's spiritual growth.
Eastern philosophy teaches man created the problem, evil, through imperfect knowledge, leading to false knowledge and desires. Therefore, man can save himself from evil, false knowledge and desires, through acquiring true (perfect) knowledge by discipline of body (matter) and thought. Ok this is close

Main stream Christianity, teaches that this house divided, the likeness can be reconciled as follows: The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection "in seeking and loving what is true and good." (Catechism of The Catholic Church).

Of course for main stream Christianity the reason why man can seek the true knowledge of good and evil is Christ. By his passion Christ defeated the evil one. The evil one through deceit caused man to injure man's likeness to God. He merited for us the new life in the Holy Spirit. His grace restores what sin had damaged in us (likeness to God through imperfect knowledge).

Eastern philosophy, not withstanding hcap’s assertions, holds very similar views in regards to the cause of evil (Man) and how to defeat evil (perfect knowledge). Not surprising though, as the Eastern cultures had the same forefathers as the Western Cultures. We have had this discussions before. There is no evidence people of the old testament were responsible for the establishment of eastern philosophies. It may be argued vice versa. Myths and legends prior to the old testament are more likely to have influenced the old testament. And once again the cause of evil in the eastern schools, although both may use the words "knowledge" and "man", are NOT the same

The dispute is how you obtain perfect knowledge (salvation from evil) of what is truly good and truly evil. Can man do it alone or does man need a saving God? As I have said before the word God is pigeonholed by the intellect. Really trying to understand what the word may mean requires all faculties of man. And the cleansing of all faculties. The intellect, the emotions, and the body itself. One of the reasons of not taking the "name of God in vain" is to preempt the ego from imperfect knowledge. Jumping to wrong conclusions without developing a greater instrument to understand the larger reality, is the hallmark of the ego.Now let me add where in fact eastern and western agree. Of course much of my argument depends on a slightly unorthodox view of the Bible. ""As Above, So Below" is attributed to The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus, in the words "That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above, corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracles of the One Thing The laws of the universe repeat on many different levels. The structure of leaves are smaller mirror images of the trees they grew on. There is not necessarily a one to one correspondence but the same "branching patterns" that are predominant in the parent tree are repeated in the leaves themselves.

Our inner psychology is in the same way a microcosm of the structure of the universe and God. Being created in his image is literally correct-but of course once again not necessarily a one to one correspondence. The beginning of the spiritual quest, and it is referred to that in many myths and legends, is an inner journey. A remarkable "key" in the New Testament" comes down to us undistorted. And that is simply "The Kingdom of Heaven is Within You"
The inner journey is more obvious in eastern teachings, but much of the Bible-particularly the New Testament can all be taken as a set of teaching stories about the inner world of our fragmented psychology and being. And certain remedies on how to establish "wholeness" or oneness or "holiness"


And the Genesis story of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is a parable for the improper use of the ego-pride-judging-intellect. Knowledge is the domain of the small self. What is needed is the cultivation of "no self".
Existing in no self is the purer state. It is towards the end of a long journey whose final destination is beyond words. But can be pointed to by both east and west. The starting point of all real teachings begin on the exterior of the rim of a spoked wheel. Subject to crappy tools of understanding. You and I may disagree vehemently, but if we each follow our respective paths even from opposite spokes on the wheel, eventually our words melt away and we move closer to "God" and each other and our word based, intellectual arguments fade.

http://z.hubpages.com/u/100506_f260.jpg

[Show Me the Wire]

hcap;

Enjoyed you post. Let me tell you what I agree with:

The intellect is not all it is cracked up to be. In fact it is a stumbling block to understanding the nature of oneself, the universe and God. Although it is quite useful in understanding many things, the intellect is one of the meanings of "old wine skins" in the passage about pouring NEW wine into old wine skins. Your attempts to equate the concepts of evil in eastern and western thought is just that. Again, I will point out that eastern thought for the most part, does not concern itself with evil as an external force and certainly does not personify it as a living entity. Mostly evil is a result of ignorance through not trying for correct knowledge-not due to as you have said 2 posts back

Agreed intellect is the stumbling block. My reference to divided man supports that position. Once, again I am asserting both thoughts agree evil entered into the world through man. Both disciplines acknowledge most evil results from man's ignorance of what is truly good and what is truly evil. Pride plays the important role as you pointed out in your post.

Your objections seemed to be based that Western thought belives improper knowledge resulted from deceit played upon man by a third party. However, where your misconception lies is that you take this mean that all evil done by individual man is the work of Satan. This is not correct.

Man is responsible for his actions and evil occurs because man has not obtained true knowledge of good and bad. And man will never obtain true knowledge as long as man is tempted by the evil one to repeat the mistake of the original parents. Therefore, Satan acts as an obstacle blocking man from understanding correct knowledge. Understanding this man has the choice to stay in imperfect knowledge or gain correct knowledge, the truth. Of course, in Christianity the truth is obtainable through Christ. Through Christ the stumbling block to pure knowledge is overcome. Therefore, it is an error to say that Christianity does not teach that most evil is a result of ignorance through not trying for correct knowledge.


Our inner psychology is in the same way a microcosm of the structure of the universe and God. Being created in his image is literally correct-but of course once again not necessarily a one to one correspondence. The beginning of the spiritual quest, and it is referred to that in many myths and legends, is an inner journey. A remarkable "key" in the New Testament" comes down to us undistorted. And that is simply "The Kingdom of Heaven is Within You"
The inner journey is more obvious in eastern teachings, but much of the Bible-particularly the New Testament can all be taken as a set of teaching stories about the inner world of our fragmented psychology and being. And certain remedies on how to establish "wholeness" or oneness or "holiness"

Definitely agree the kingdom of heaven is within us. We access the kingdom of heaven when we throw-off imperfect knowledge and obtain perfect knowledge. The inner journey is very important in Christianity. Christ's teachings are filled with self reflection, especially before judging others.

Christ taught his apostles about the importance of oneness as he and the father are one. For through its oneness the Trinity is Holy. We are called to be one with God.

And the Genesis story of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is a parable for the improper use of the ego-pride-judging-intellect. Knowledge is the domain of the small self. What is needed is the cultivation of "no self".
Existing in no self is the purer state. It is towards the end of a long journey whose final destination is beyond words. But can be pointed to by both east and west. The starting point of all real teachings begin on the exterior of the rim of a spoked wheel. Subject to crappy tools of understanding. You and I may disagree vehemently, but if we each follow our respective paths even from opposite spokes on the wheel, eventually our words melt away and we move closer to "God" and each other and our word based, intellectual arguments fade.

This is a fundamental aspect of the story. Man's pride, wanting to be like God, caused man to be inclined toward evil. Causing man to embrace imperfect knowledge making man believe, as you stated, in the small self. The remedy in Christian belief is denying self or dying to one's self. This is a basic belief. Denying one self is obtained through both physical discipline of the body as well thought (prayer, meditation, etc) (similar to Easter beliefs).

We do not disagree vehemently, at least I do not. It is difficult to disagree vehemently when so much of the substance is the same. I believe our disagreements are based upon misconceptions about the substance, of a specific belief system, due to imperfect knowledge. Yes we can all move closer to God as God is inclusive.

Regarding people of the Old Testament in relation to Eastern beliefs. There is no old testament to the forefathers. The people who populated Asia and the East did not spontaneously appear from nothing. They migrated, as all people out of Africa (according to science). Therefore, all cultures had common forefathers. How cannot one say that the migrating peoples did not carry stories and traditions from the common ancestral era?

The stumbling block here, to you and many, is Christ about how he fits in an established pre-Christian beleif system. Very understandable, as Christ appeared well after the major cultural migrations occurred.

[Show Me the Wire]

Al,

If this isn't too Cartesian, allow me ...


Four types of people in your life:

* Those that love you for the wrong reasons

* Those that love you for the right reasons

* Those that hate you for the wrong reasons

* Those that hate you for the right reasons


Which group should worry you ?

Hey toetoe what is your answer. I am curious.

I labeled as follows:

group 1 (+ -)
group 2 (+ +)
group 3 (- +)
group 4 (- -)

If group 3 changes I have 3/4 that love me, but if group 1 changes I have 3/4 that hate me. So I fear a change by group 1 the most.

So what say you?

[toetoe]

As explained on the 'Is Salame Gay ?' episode of The White Shadow (whence I stole the riddle), only those in group 4 should concern you. If you care to enlighten those that love you for the wrong reasons, okay; but 1, 2 and 3 should not be cause for worry.

[Show Me the Wire]

Not familiar with that specific episode, but I see my mistake. I assumed it was a problem about a group changing (+ -) to (- -). If it is static, which is the way your question is posed, then those whom hate for the right reasons is the only (- -).

Thanks for the brain teaser and answer.