A car company prediction: Chevy Volt

[JustRalph]

I have been watching the snails pace in which GM is developing the Volt.

They unveiled the production version today.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0809/gallery.gm_volt_reveal/index.html?cnn=yes

GM charges up the Chevy Volt
General Motors gives the world an up-close look at its new electric car.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/galleries/2008/autos/0809/gallery.gm_volt_reveal/images/2011_chevy_volt.jpg

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/galleries/2008/autos/0809/gallery.gm_volt_reveal/images/2011_chevy_volt_int.jpg

General Motors unveiled the Chevrolet Volt electric vehicle on Tuesday, allowing outsiders their first full look at the car GM says will go on sale in 2010.
"The Volt symbolizes GM's commitment to the future," said Rick Wagoner, the company's chairman and CEO.

The Volt will be driven by electricity stored in a large T-shaped lithium-ion battery pack running the length of the car. After charging for several hours, the Volt will be able to run for up to about 40 miles without using gasoline.

GM did not announce pricing for the car, which will have the equivalent of about 150 horsepower and a top speed of 100 mph, the automaker said.

The car's zero-to-sixty time will be under nine seconds, said GM vehicle line director Tony Posawatz. That would make the performance about average for a modern car

"The center of gravity of the car, with the center battery pack, it's going to have real great ride and handling," said Posawatz.

To charge the batteries, drivers will plug a cord into a port just ahead of the driver's side mirror. The cord can then be attached to an ordinary home electrical outlet.

The car will cost "less than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee" to recharge, and use less electricity annually than a refrigerator, according to GM. The Volt should cost less than 2 cents per mile to drive on electricity, GM said, compared with 12 cents a mile on gasoline at a price of $3.60 a gallon.

As the battery begins to run down as the car is in use, a small gasoline engine will turn on and generate enough electricity to drive the car about 300 miles, said GM.

Unlike hybrid cars, or plug-in hybrids, the Volt is driven only by electricity. The gasoline engine never directly drives the car's wheels.

~more at the link~



I have a prediction. GM is moving so slow that a Japanese company will bring out a better alternative just prior to the volt going on the market.

This is classic GM. It's like turning an ocean liner. They can't do anything in less than 3 years. I think the Volt will be dead on arrival unless they up the range 20-30%.

[HUSKER55]

The demand is now, the people want it now and the people are ready to change now and GM wants to wait 3 years. Hmmmmm

Maybe they need time to build factories over seas???

husker55

:)

[JustRalph]

They say you can get it in 2010

I will believe it when I see it

[DJofSD]

What I want to know is where is the hybrid vehicle that I'd buy: electrical/CNG?

[Dave Schwartz]

GM as a whole shared that confidence and at the 2007 Detroit auto show unveiled an early, concept car version of the Volt. To the surprise of even Lutz, it was the hit of the show. Other hybrids may offer fuel-efficiency, but the Volt would go several steps further. A traditional hybrid like the Prius has two means of propulsion: one electric motor run by a battery and one engine run by gasoline. The battery can't take you very far — maybe seven or eight miles — which is why the gas engine kicks in so often. But as you drive, the battery does pick up extra juice, mostly courtesy of what's known as regenerative braking — collecting the heat generated every time you hit the brakes, converting it to electricity and storing it in the battery. The result: less gas used on every trip.


LOL - When I tried to post the above quote I got an error message saying:

"The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 1 characters."

So, I typed the above. And this. And that. And then that again.

[ddog]

my prediction is they will never make it to market without a gvt bailout and then it will be a bust.

[46zilzal]

These were introduced to good responses but the powers that be took them all off the road.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/

"In 1996, electric cars began to appear on roads all over California. They were quiet and fast, produced no exhaust and ran without gasoline...........Ten years later, these cars were destroyed.

A lack of consumer confidence... or conspiracy?"

Not too many people wanted to give them back either.

[JustRalph]

http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/19/chevy-volt-and-the-electric-grid-drive-15000-miles-for-73/

Chevy Volt and the Electric Grid: Drive 15,000 Miles for $73



I will believe it when I see it. See the link for rates etc

[MichaelNunamaker]

I think the Volt will be dead on arrival unless they up the range 20-30%.[/B]


If I understand you correctly, you are saying you think the car will fail unless they make the gas tank about 2-3 gallons bigger. OK, I'm baffled. Care to elaborate?

[JustRalph]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying you think the car will fail unless they make the gas tank about 2-3 gallons bigger. OK, I'm baffled. Care to elaborate?


Purely electric range. I understand you can drive it as long as you want. But when you are running on gasoline because you are out of range, will very quickly kill this thing. I also know that you really aren't running on electric much at all. Smoke and mirrors.

I am not so sure that they won't be "one-upped" on this by a substantially better product and by that I mean a vehicle that has a 20-30% better pure electric range. If I was working on it, and my name was Toyota or Nissan and I didn't have an image problem, I would keep it under wraps. I think that is bound to be happening.

They want this car to be considered a commuter. 30-35 miles one way at most. Early on they quoted numbers of most commuters making a commute of less than 20 miles every day. For the money, a Toyota Yaris makes much more sense at 10-11k. The Volt at 55-60 miles on a charge changes the whole dynamic. Many more uses than just a commute to work.

There is some speculation (even on the Chevy Volt board) that this is all smoke and mirrors and the car will only be manufactured for a few years at most, and maybe killed prior to production, while they wait for someone to trump them.

The GM team is trying very hard to make GM look like a forerunner in this market. When in reality, I think they are dragging their feet on purpose.

[Jeff P]

Physics:

It takes the same number of calories to move a car from Point A to Point B whether the car is electric or whether it has a gasoline engine. The number of calories X depends on the weight of the car and friction with the road.


Dollars & Cents:

If we make the following assumptions:
1. The distance between Point A and Point B is 20 miles.
2. My current car gets 20 mpg.
3. I currently pay $3.75 for a gallon of gas.

On avg, it costs $3.75 to drive my car from Point A to Point B.



Enter the electric car:
1. The distance between Point A and Point B is still 20 miles.
2. The number of calories required to get from Point A to Point B hasn't changed - at least not significantly.



Prediction:

If and when new types of cars come into being it will not matter how they are powered. If they turn out to be powered by electricity, here's how I see things unfolding:

When I stop at the gas station I'll buy just enough gas to run the car's generator. But I'm thinking my monthly electric bill will absolutely explode. Power companies of tomorrow will behave no different than oil companies of today.

We'll all read read about how meeting demand and keeping the grid from overloading is nearly impossible. Every time any of us drives to a distant city we'll wonder just how much it's going to cost to plug the stupid things in at the overnight charging station... and whether or not there'll be another brownout as everyone else plugs their cars in too.

It wouldn't surprise me.



-jp

.

[ddog]

Physics:

It takes the same number of calories to move a car from Point A to Point B whether the car is electric or whether it has a gasoline engine. The number of calories X depends on the weight of the car and friction with the road.


Dollars & Cents:

If we make the following assumptions:
1. The distance between Point A and Point B is 20 miles.
2. My current car gets 20 mpg.
3. I currently pay $3.75 for a gallon of gas.

On avg, it costs $3.75 to drive my car from Point A to Point B.



Enter the electric car:
1. The distance between Point A and Point B is still 20 miles.
2. The number of calories required to get from Point A to Point B hasn't changed - at least not significantly.



Prediction:

If and when new types of cars come into being it will not matter how they are powered. If they turn out to be powered by electricity, here's how I see things unfolding:

When I stop at the gas station I'll buy just enough gas to run the car's generator. But I'm thinking my monthly electric bill will absolutely explode. Power companies of tomorrow will behave no different than oil companies of today.

We'll all read read about how meeting demand and keeping the grid from overloading is nearly impossible. Every time any of us drives to a distant city we'll wonder just how much it's going to cost to plug the stupid things in at the overnight charging station... and whether or not there'll be another brownout as everyone else plugs their cars in too.

It wouldn't surprise me.



-jp

.

it can't be any other way.

since we can't build power plants anyway it won't be good.

nukes for this , start now.

nat gas seems a way to do part of it to me.

[MichaelNunamaker]

Purely electric range. I understand you can drive it as long as you want. But when you are running on gasoline because you are out of range, will very quickly kill this thing.

Why is that? Current hybrid cars can drive zero miles on pure electric. I don't see what the problem is. The Volt can drive infinitely farther than any existing hybrid on 100% electricity. I just don't understand how this could possibly be bad.

BTW, it looks like Toyota will be selling a plug in version of the Prius. It can only go up to 62mph before it kicks over to gas powered, and its battery will only drive the car 7 miles in electric mode. The Volt looks much much better to me.


We'll all read read about how meeting demand and keeping the grid from overloading is nearly impossible.

Actually, this one is easy. The grid is dramatically underutilized at night. Simply put rechargers on timers and only recharge at night. Basically the entire country could switch over to cars like the Volt if we just recharge at night.

[JustRalph]

Michael, I am not disagreeing with your points. Maybe an easier way of making my point is to say............... "it's the same, nothing new" why buy it from GM unless it offers more range or a dramatic savings. It comes back to the same problem GM has with Gas powered cars...........Image..........GM is trying to make the volt look different and prove to us that they are "leading the way" and that is a quote. That wears off fast when you can find no real difference .............

I read an article recently about the night time charging and that seems very viable, and not a problem.

[ddog]

Why is that? Current hybrid cars can drive zero miles on pure electric. I don't see what the problem is. The Volt can drive infinitely farther than any existing hybrid on 100% electricity. I just don't understand how this could possibly be bad.

BTW, it looks like Toyota will be selling a plug in version of the Prius. It can only go up to 62mph before it kicks over to gas powered, and its battery will only drive the car 7 miles in electric mode. The Volt looks much much better to me.




Actually, this one is easy. The grid is dramatically underutilized at night. Simply put rechargers on timers and only recharge at night. Basically the entire country could switch over to cars like the Volt if we just recharge at night.


um, i notice lots of activity at night, do we switch to pedal power then?

also, the grid needs downtime it can't run flat out all the time or even most of the time.

[MichaelNunamaker]

Michael, I am not disagreeing with your points. Maybe an easier way of making my point is to say............... "it's the same, nothing new" why buy it from GM unless it offers more range or a dramatic savings.

Considering only "normal cars". the only plug in hybrids/electric cars that I'm aware of that will be available in the same time frame the Volt will ship are:

Tesla S-series: Pure electric, range 160 miles, price $60,000+

Chevy Volt: Pure electric first 40 miles, then gas engine. Price $40,000+

Toyota Plug in hybrid Prius: Electric if less than 62mph for 7 miles, then gas engine. Price $30,000+

From what I've read, all of these are similar cars from a functional point of view.

Obviously, the Tesla car can never do a long road trip. The Volt and plug in Prius both have no trouble with very long trips.

Looking at how my wife and I drive, either the Tesla or Volt would work fine for us. I doubt we would ever use a drop of gas with the Volt. The Volt going for 20K less than the Tesla makes it much more desirable to me. If we got the plug in Prius, my wife's 30 mile commute means about 70% of the miles driven would be gas powered.

Here in Florida, we can choose time of day billing for electricity. If I put the car on a timer and only charge off peak, we pay only 6 cents a kilowatt hour. That means it would cost 48 cents to charge the battery pack at night. 40 miles will cost 48 cents for fuel. That sounds like a real deal to me. Right now, we are paying about 15 times that for fuel.

[BIG HIT]

A few year's back when we had black out here and other city and raise rate to bulid more grid or something to that effect.You should no buy now they will run supply and demand thing for more money.Just like anything else.The goverment use more gas then anybody in.U.S. So if these country want are help they should pay for all the gas seem fair the tank's only get 9 miles a gallon.A now we are going to bail out big companys hell divide the moey up give it to the people were american's we spend.If the big company don't survie then oh well that's business.Nafta was are down fall way were going now we will be thrid world country.Rule's always change remenber you could claim your ihterest on your income and gas they took that away long time ago nobody suggest bring it back.?

[JustRalph]

um, i notice lots of activity at night, do we switch to pedal power then?

Some areas go down to as little as 15% of the normal pull during the day.

Think Hot Air Conditioned areas.

[JustRalph]

http://gm-volt.com/2010/04/23/nissan-leaf-gets-6635-us-reservations/

Nissan already taking orders/reservations for the Leaf.

http://gm-volt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/leaf-colors.png

[HUSKER55]

GM AND CHRYSLER have both used government bailouts at the taxpayers expense and no price break, nothing, nada.

I don't think rewarding those crooks is right. they are not too big to fail.

I will buy a damned Honda before I buy a Gm or Chrysler anything.

[DRIVEWAY]

Considering only "normal cars". the only plug in hybrids/electric cars that I'm aware of that will be available in the same time frame the Volt will ship are:

Tesla S-series: Pure electric, range 160 miles, price $60,000+

Chevy Volt: Pure electric first 40 miles, then gas engine. Price $40,000+

Toyota Plug in hybrid Prius: Electric if less than 62mph for 7 miles, then gas engine. Price $30,000+

From what I've read, all of these are similar cars from a functional point of view.

Obviously, the Tesla car can never do a long road trip. The Volt and plug in Prius both have no trouble with very long trips.

Looking at how my wife and I drive, either the Tesla or Volt would work fine for us. I doubt we would ever use a drop of gas with the Volt. The Volt going for 20K less than the Tesla makes it much more desirable to me. If we got the plug in Prius, my wife's 30 mile commute means about 70% of the miles driven would be gas powered.

Here in Florida, we can choose time of day billing for electricity. If I put the car on a timer and only charge off peak, we pay only 6 cents a kilowatt hour. That means it would cost 48 cents to charge the battery pack at night. 40 miles will cost 48 cents for fuel. That sounds like a real deal to me. Right now, we are paying about 15 times that for fuel.

If you buy the Volt for $40K what would the alternative gas only car cost. My guess is $20K. Add to the cost of the Volt the battery replacement at circa 100,000 miles, then you have an elaborate formula of cost per mile.

Let's say the battery replacement is $4000. Add the car cost difference of $20,000 and you have $24,000. Now to be fair you would have to factor back the cars value at 100,000 miles. Let's say the 40K Volt is worth 18K and the gas alternative is worth 8K. That means that the Volt cost $10,000 more than the gas alternative. You will need to add $4000 for the replacement batteries and wind up at a conservative extra cost of $14,000 versus the gas alternative. $14,000 against 100,000 miles is .14 per mile of use plus the recharge cost of .012 per mile. Total .152 per mile for the Volt.

If the gas car gets 25 mpg than the cost of gas per mile at $3.00 a gallon is .12 per mile. The Volt is .152 per mile and the gas alternative is .12 per mile.

If gas averages $4.00 a gallon then the gas alternative becomes .16 per mile.

Things are not always the way they seem. It's a close call on the cost side. I'm sure the Volt is a neat looking car, so it might sell on that basis alone.

Good luck with the Volt, if that's the way you go.

[newtothegame]

APNewsBreak: GM willing to buy back Volts

By TOM KRISHER
AP Auto Writer


NEW YORK (AP) -- General Motors will buy Chevrolet Volts back from any owner who is afraid the electric cars will catch fire, the company's CEO said Thursday.
In an exclusive interview with The Associated Press, CEO Dan Akerson insisted that the cars are safe, but said the company will purchase the Volts because it wants to keep customers happy. Three fires have broken out in Volts after side-impact crash tests done by the federal government.

Akerson said that if necessary, GM will recall the more than 6,000 Volts now on the road in the U.S. and repair them once the company and federal safety regulators figure out what caused the fires.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_VOLT_BATTERY_FIRE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-12-01-14-56-43

[HUSKER55]

THAT pretty much says it all. 3 years in the making and god know how much money and GM offers to buy the car back cause it can catch on fire.

I foresee a government bail out for GM again.

[newtothegame]

Chevy Volt Costing Taxpayers Up to $250K Per Vehicle

Analyst: 'This might be the most government-supported car since the Trabant'



Each Chevy Volt sold thus far may have as much as $250,000 in state and federal dollars in incentives behind it – a total of $3 billion altogether, according to an analysis by James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.
Hohman looked at total state and federal assistance offered for the development and production of the Chevy Volt, General Motors’ plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. His analysis included 18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits. The amount of government assistance does not include the fact that General Motors is currently 26 percent owned (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/general_motors_corporation/index.html) by the federal government.

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16192

[JustRalph]

worse than I thought.......... :bang:

[Tom]

Obama is doing a bang up job, isn't he?

[JustRalph]

6KJhdaQO_CM

[Robert Goren]

Right now, It is hard to justify buying an all electric car. They are nothing more than glorified golf carts. Hybrids are a little easier but are still a bit over priced. The Volt is a sales nightmare. A $20K car with a $40k price tag. It could have had a nice niche market if they could have sold them for about 15K. I am amazed they sold any of them. It reminds me of the Edsel that Ford built in the late 50s. It too was something that was way overpriced for what it really was.

[Tom]

The Obama administration is spinning this to say everyone in America has bought a Volt! :lol:

[maddog42]

Chevy Volt Costing Taxpayers Up to $250K Per Vehicle

Analyst: 'This might be the most government-supported car since the Trabant'



Each Chevy Volt sold thus far may have as much as $250,000 in state and federal dollars in incentives behind it – a total of $3 billion altogether, according to an analysis by James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.
Hohman looked at total state and federal assistance offered for the development and production of the Chevy Volt, General Motors’ plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. His analysis included 18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits. The amount of government assistance does not include the fact that General Motors is currently 26 percent owned (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/general_motors_corporation/index.html) by the federal government.

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16192

"26 percent owned by federal government". This is down from 61 percent. How many dollars in taxes have those GM employees paid? The Auto bailout has been a success IMO.

[Tom]

Looks we are still bailing them out.
How much tax dollars have gone to the worthless POS Volt that could have gone to other uses?

The Volt has no business being made.

[maddog42]

I am not going to defend the Volt. I can't believe it is comparable to my daughters Prius. The GM bailout made and is making economic sense. We may get every penny back and more when you consider the tax revenue and over a million (some peripheral) jobs from the auto industry. The losses (we might take)
are selling GM stock at 50% loss.

[Tom]

Other car companies would have filled the void left by GM.
Other companies not sucking the lifeblood out of our pockets. GM should have been left to die and go away. A better management team would have picked up the pieces. Obviously, the current GM management team is clueless.